interviuSi moTxrobili biografia1 saubari niklas lumanTan 1996 w.

8 ianvars oerlinghausSi saubars uZRveboda sociologi detlef horsteri

horsteri: rogor ojaxSi gaizardeT? ra gancda gaqvT nacionalsocializmis mimarT? ramdenad moaxdina nacional-socializmma zegavlena Tqvens aRzrdaze? lumani: qalaq luneburgSi mamaCems patara ludsaxarSi da alaos mwarmoebeli qarxana hqonda. warmoeba Sua saukuneebis droindeli iyo. is babuaCemma gadaakeTa da fabrikulad moawyo. ukve mamaCemis dros warmoebis SenarCuneba SeuZlebeli gaxda, gansakuTrebiT raixis sagadasaxado kanonmdeblobis gamo, romelic alkoholis Semcveli muqi ludis warmoebisaTvis xelsayreli ar iyo. am droidan moyolebuli mSoblebis biznesi didi gaWirvebiT agrZelebda arsebobas. dedaCemi Sveicarieli iyo. misi mSoblebi sastumros flobdnen. SveicariaSic, pirveli msoflio omis dawyebasTan erTad, ekonomikuri saqmianobisTvis xelsayreli dro damTavrda. babuaCemi qalaq luneburgis senatori iyo. qalaqs, maSindeli konstituciis Tanaxmad, ori senatori marTavda. amdenad, ojaxi cnobili iyo. Cveni ojaxis konservatulobaze verafers getyviT. mamaCemi, rogorc wvrili mewarme, yvela SemTxvevaSi, winaaRmdegi iyo nacistebisa da nacional-socialistebis, romelTac saqmeebi bevrad uaresad mihyavdaT. mas liberalur-ekonomikuri warmodgenebi hqonda, rac patara qalaqis pirobebSi bevrs arafers niSnavda. is arasodes yofila NSDAP-is2 wevri da garkveuli problemebic hqonda, radgan social-demokratebis mdivani, roca is KZ-dan3 gaanTavisufles, mamam TavisTan sawarmoSi samuSaoze aiyvana. amis gamo gaRizianeba arsebobda. maxsendeba, rom SA-m4 misi saWadrako klubi gadaibara, rasac, mogvianebiT,
1

Targmani Sesrulebulia detlef horsteris wignidan niklas lumani. ix. Detlef Horster, Niklas Luhmann, Verlag C.H. Becker, 1997 2 germaniis nacional-socialisturi muSaTa partia. 3 sakoncentracio banaki. 4 germaniis nacional-socialisturi muSaTa partiis naxevrad gasamxedroebuli, SeiaraRebuli organizacia.

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klubis wevrebis mxridan klubis daxurvis gadawyvetileba mohyva. Semdegi mogoneba: Cvens miwis sakuTrebas mikuTvnebul Sua saukuneebis droindel sawyobs 1932 wlis Semodgomaze cecxli waekida da daiwva. eWvobdnen, rom es Caidina erTma restornis mflobelma, romelsac mamaCemis vali hqonda. restornis mflobeli nacisti iyo da 1933 wels am SemTxvevis samarTlebrivi gamoZieba saswrafod Sewyda. aseTi movlenebis fonze adamianebs gauCndaT gancda, rom umjobesia TavSekaveba da mSvidad yofna. problemebi mec mqonda. zafxuls Cven yovelTvis SveicariaSi vatarebdiT. me iqidan yvela SesaZlo SexedulebebiTa da warmodgenebiT datvirTuli Camovdiodi, rac srulebiT Seuferebeli iyo germaniis sinamdvilisaTvis. magaliTad, me frankos winaaRmdegi viyavi da maocebda, rom germaniaSi yvela frankos uWerda mxars. Cemi skolis SeSfoTebulma maswavleblebma mamaCemic ki daibares. 1938 wlidan ukve SveicariaSi gamgzavrebac ar SemeZlo, rasac, rogorc bavSvi, ver vigebdi. Semdegi mogoneba: luneburgSi erTi britanuli TviTmfrinavi Camovarda, orive pilotis gadarCena SeiZleboda, magram mogvianebiT, rogorc sahaero Tavdacvis Zalebis TanaSemweebma davadgineT, isini TviTmfrinavebis angarSi daxvrites. maT tyvia zurgSi hqondaT nasroli. Cveni ojaxis damokidebuleba nacistebisadmi yovelTvis rTuli, magram mogvarebadi iyo, radgan ojaxis wevrebi cdilobdnen sadRac gadamaluliyvnen da naklebad TvalSisacemi gamxdariyvnen. CvenTvis marcxi moulodneli ar yofila. mamaCemma bevri ram icoda, marTalia, ebraelebis daxocvis Sesaxeb ara, magram, misTvis cnobili iyo, Tu rogor epyrobodnen rus samxedro tyveebs da sxva faqtebic. mas amis Sesaxeb arasodes ulaparakia. amaze saubari mxolod 1945 wlis Semdeg gaxda SesaZlebeli. horsteri: Tqven maSin sahaero Tavdacvis Zalebis TanaSemwe5 iyaviT, magram ara nebayoflobiT? lumani: ara, ara. iq mTeli klasi gadavida. me Cems klaselebze erTi wliT umcrosi viyavi, radgan erTi klasiT gadavxti. ase rom, me 15 wlis, xolo Cemi klaselebi 16 wlis asakSi sahaero Tavdacvis Zalebis TanaSemweebi gavxdiT. horsteri: omis Semdeg amerikelebis tyveobaSi aRmoCndiT?
5

Luftwaffenhelfer meore msoflio omis dasasruls sahaero Tavdacvis damxmare personali ZiriTadad arasrulwlovnebiT iyo dakompleqtebuli.

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lumani: diax. am tyveobam me damatebiT kidev erTi negatiuri gamocdileba SemZina, radgan mopyroba, rbilad rom vTqvaT, saerTaSoriso konvenciebis Sesabamisi ar iyo. tyveebisadmi amerikelebis damokidebuleba ver gagiCenda grZnobas, rom axla iseT samyaroSi cxovrob, sadac yvelaferi wesrigSia. horsteri: e.i. Tqven 1945 welma ganTavisuflebis SegrZneba ar moganiWaT? lumani: imdenad aRviqvi ganTavisuflebad, ramdenadac nacistebis dasasruli yvelasaTvis naTeli iyo da yvelam icoda, rom tyveobidan ganTavisuflebis Semdeg mdgomareoba SeiZleboda ukeTesi gamxdariyo. 1945 wlis seqtembramde jer kidev patimrobaSi viyavi. ganTavisuflebis programa gansazRvruli iyo, magram amerikelebma vadebi gadawies. horsteri: Tqveni wignis yovel mkiTxvels TvalSi ecema Tqveni farTo ganaTleba. sad miiReT aseTi ganaTleba? skolaSi, mSoblebis ojaxSi Tu sad? lumani: mSoblebis ojaxidan, magram mxolod SezRudulad. dedaCemisa da mamaCemis ojaxebi mecnierTa ojaxebs ar warmoadgendnen. umaRlesi ganaTleba unda mieRo mxolod imas, vinc memkvidreobis gareSe rCeboda. umemkvidreod darCenilebi maswavleblebi, iuristebi da eqimebi an sxva romelime profesiis warmomadgenlebi xdebodnen. mamaCemma CemSi ekonomikuri urTierTobebisadmi Zlieri interesi gaaRviZa. rva wlis asakSi xSirad vxedavdi mamaCems gazeTiT xelSi. me qveviT vZvrebodi, raTa menaxa, Tu ras kiTxulobda mama. es iyo ricxvebiT aWrelebuli gazeTis gverdi. maxsovs, vkiTxe, Tu ras kiTxulobda da man mipasuxa: birJis cnobebs. vkiTxe, Tu ratom kiTxulobda is birJis cnobebs, razec momigo: birJa ar tyuis. sxva axsna mas ar moucia. Semdeg me Cems Tavs vekiTxebodi, ras gulisxmobda mamaCemi: imas, rom mxolod birJa ar tyuis, Tu imas, rom sxva yvelaferi monaCmaxia. saxlSi, cxadia, gvqonda wignebi. es ar iyo sakmarisi, magram qalaq luneburgSi Zalian kargi biblioTeka iyo. me yovelTvis bevrs vkiTxulobdi. saskolo ganaTleba, bunebrivia, Zalian kargi iyo. skolaSi laTinursa da berZnuls vswavlobdiT. laTinuri yoveldRe gvqonda da yoveldRe viRebdiT davalebas, liviusidan or gverds mosamzadeblad, Semdeg ki skolaSi wakiTxuli teqstis Sesaxeb diskusia imarTeboda. horsteri : rogor axsnidiT Tqvens interess damoukidebeli, klasgareSe literaturis kiTxvisadmi? lumani: zustad ver agixsniT. ubralod ase warimarTa. Znelia dasawyisis moZebna. me viRebdi nacistebis axalgazrdul Jur91

niklas lumani

nals ie Jugendburg da iq saubari iyo neandertalelebze, mTlianad TmiT Seburvil adamianebze, Jurnalis meore gverdze ki adamsa da evaze. maSin Sevecade es amexsna. istoriuli interesebi yovelTvis mqonda. horsteri: rodis daiwyeT universitetSi swavla? lumani: skolis damTavrebis mowmoba ar aRiares da me gardamavali kursis gavla momixda. mxolod 1946 wlis gazafxulidan SemeZlo universitetSi swavlis dawyeba da, Semdeg, SedarebiT swrafad gavxdi studenti. horsteri: rogor airCieT specialoba? lumani: me mainteresebda samarTali, rogorc wesrigis faqtori. SesaZloa, Cems dainteresebaze gavlena iqonia Cem mier gancdilma sxvadasxva saxis samarTlebrivma darRvevebma. kanoni mniSvnelovnad gansazRvravda Cems urTierTobas da-ZmebTan: is gacvlis, molaparakebisa da Txovebis safuZvels warmoadgenda. bavSvebs cal-calke gvqonda sakuTreba, anu is, rac me mekuTvnoda, ar ekuTvnoda Cems Zmebs. horsteri: ra profesia airCies Tqvenma da-Zmebma? lumani: me myavs Cemze umcrosi ori Zma. maTgan ufross, axla ukve CemTvis Znelad aRsadgeni garemoebebis gamo, mSoblebis warmoeba unda gadacemoda. wesiT, rogorc yvelaze ufross, es saqme me unda Cambareboda. umcrosi Zma saeqsporto vaWrobas eweoda. mas surda, rac SeiZleba swrafad gascloda germanias, ramac sabolood misi profesiuli arCevani ganapiroba. horsteri: jer kidev profesiis arCevamde, rogorc saxelmwifo moxelem, Tqveni saxelganTqmuli baraTebis yuTi (katalogi) SeqmeniT. jer kidev maSin gqondaT ganzraxva gahyolodiT mecnierebas? iyo es strategiulad dagegmili cxovrebis nawili? lumani: ara, srulebiTac ara. samarTlis Seswavlam sulac ar STamagona samarTali sauniversiteto karierad damesaxa, miuxedavad imisa, rom romis samarTalSi gansakuTrebulad gamorCeuli profesori gvyavda. maSin momxibvlelad ar mimaCnda sakuTari cxovrebis dakavSireba imasTan, rac Semdgom sxvebs unda aswavlo. Cemi antipaTia sauniversiteto karierisadmi hanoveris ganaTlebis, religiisa da kulturis saministroSi nacizmis dros universitetebis qcevis gamokvlevam ganmimtkica. sxva sakiTxebTan erTad profesorebis kompensaciis saCivrebi da disciplinaruli saqmeebi unda gamexsna. maSindeli gancdebis safuZvelze, universitetSi samuSaod fexis Sedgma mimzidvelad sulac ar mimaCnda. horsteri: magram, erT mSvenier dRes, universitetSi mainc waxvediT. 92

sazogadoebis idea

lumani: es grZeli istoriaa. Tavdapirvelad me qalaq luneburgis umaRles administraciul sasamarTloSi prezidentis asistenti viyavi da gamouqveynebeli gadawyvetilebebis biblioTekis formirebis, precedentuli SemTxvevebisa da sxva saqmeebis Sesrulebis pasuxismgebloba mekisreboda. Semdeg, 1955 wels, qvemo saqsoniis mTavrobas surda SDU/DVP-dan6 administraciuli mosamarTle hyoloda. luneburgis prezidenti hofmani ambobda, rom ar sWirdeba aranairi administraciuli sasamarTlo. magram mas SeeZlo Cemi gagzavna. Tavdapirvelad es iyo mxolod samTviani mivlineba. sami Tvis Semdeg saxelmwifo mdivanma saministroSi darCena da referatis Sedgena SemomTavaza. saxelmwifo mdivani undoblobiT iyo gamsWvaluli social-demokrati moxeleebis mimarT, romlebic, bunebrivia, jer kidev saministroSi isxdnen. SemdgomSi ufro metad viyavi dakavebuli iseTi politikuri sakiTxebiT, rogoricaa kabinetis sxdomebis momzadeba, lantagis RonisZiebebis organizeba, ganaTlebis, religiisa da kulturis ministris konferenciis momzadeba. es monacvleobiT xdeboda. momdevno arCevnebis Semdeg xelisufleba Seicvala. ambobdnen, rom aurixSi Cemi gadayvanis gankargulebaze ukve mowerilia xeli. es bewvis xidze siarulis tolfasi iyo. magram SDP-Si mfarveli myavda,7 ase rom, vrCebodi. mogvianebiT, axal ministrTan SedarebiT ukeTesi urTierToba Camomiyalibda. amis Semdeg CemTvis problema iyo gadamewyvita, am mimarTulebiT unda gamegrZelebina gza, Tu sxva ram unda mekeTebina. yvelaferi meordeboda: erTi kabinetis sxdoma meores hgavda, erTi parlamentis sxdoma ki meore parlamentis sxdomas. jer kidev ormocdaaTian wlebSi kompetenciis sakiTxebze mniSvnelovani kamaTi mimdinareobda. kerZod, maSinac ar iyo naTeli, ra gansazRvravda kulturis politikas: fuli bonidan, Tu konstituciis samarTlebrivi statusi. magram saqme midioda. Semdeg wavedi amerikaSi, rom menaxa, iqneboda Tu ara sruliad sakmarisi mxolod kiTxva da Canawerebis keTeba. horsteri: e.i. Tqven saministrodan pirdapir amerikaSi waxvediT. rogor moxda es? lumani: harvardSi arsebobda skola, romelic amerikel administraciis moxeleebs masteris akademiur xarisxs aniWebda, raTa vaSingtonSi administraciuli moxeleebis inteleqtuaSDU germaniis social-demokratiuli kavSiri, DVP _ germaniis saxalxo partia. 7 germaniis social-demokratiuli partia.
6

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luri deficiti aRmoefxvra. amerikaSi wasvlis safuZvelic es gaxda. maSin es dakavSirebuli iyo New Deal-is8 saqmesTan. am skolaSi stipendia ganviTarebuli qveynebis warmomadgenlebma da aseve orma germanelma miiRo. saministroSi Cems sawer magidaze gancxadeba davinaxe. aseTi gancxadebebis garkveul adgilebSi gavrceleba mevaleboda, magram es ar gamoricxavda imas, rom mec Semetana gancxadeba am stipendiis mosapoveblad. horsteri: e.i. parsonsTan9 swavlis gadawyvetileba SemTxveviTi iyo? lumani: aramc da aramc. bunebrivia, SemTxveviT moxda, rom stipendia harvardisTvis iyo gankuTvnili da parsonsi iq muSaobda. magram is, rom Semdgom masTan erTad vimuSave, Cemi sakuTari gadawyvetileba gaxldaT. litaueris centris skolaSi organizaciis sociologias ar aswavlidnen, arada es me yvelaze metad mainteresebda. skolaSi aswavlidnen, erTi mxriv, saerTaSoriso strategiis politikas, e.i. morgentaus,10 kisinjers11 da a.S. xolo, meore mxriv, makroekonomikuri statistikis meTodebs. horsteri: parsonsi sociologi iyo, da Tqven ki am dromde administraciis iuristad muSaobdiT. saidan gagiCndaT interesi sociologiis mimarT? adre sadme literaturaSi gadawydomixarT parsonss? ris gamo gagitacaT parsonsma? lumani: saqme amgvarad iyo: skolaSic yovelTvis imas ar vakeTebdi, rac unda mekeTebina. aseve, istoriuli literatura, romelsac vkiTxulobdi, sxva epoqas moicavda, vidre es saskolo programiT iyo gaTvaliswinebuli. universitetSic romis
idioma inglisur enaSi. niSnavs kartebis gadanawilebas. New Deal-ad iwodeboda franklin delano ruzveltis (1882-1945) mier inicirebuli ekonomikuri da socialuri reformebi, romelic gulisxmobda saxelmwifo investiciebis gazrdas, socialuri dazRvevis danergvas, progresul sagadasaxado dabegvras, samuSao drois Semcirebas. reformis iniciatorebis Tanaxmad, am RonisZiebebs unda Seemcirebina ekonomikuri krizisiT gamowveuli umuSevroba da siRaribe. 9 talkot parsonsi (1902-1979) erT-erTi yvelaze gavleniani amerikeli sociologi, Teoretikosi, struqturul-funqcionaluri Teoriis mTavari warmomadgeneli. 10 hans morgentau (1904-1980) germaneli iuristi da politologi. klasikuri politikuri realizmis~ warmomadgeneli. 11 henri kisinjeri (daib. 1923) germanuli warmoSobis politikosi da politologi.
8

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samarTalsac, rac me safuZvlianad Seviswavle, sociologiis fonze vswavlobdi, berZnul savaWro samarTals romauls vadarebdi da socialur gansxvavebebs veZebdi. me amisaTvis yovelTvis gaxsnili viyavi. Cven gvaswavlida eduard baumgarteni,12 maqs veberis13 moswavle. mogvianebiT ki saministroSi Zalian bevri wigni wavikiTxe. saministros hqonda biblioTeka, romelic mierTebuli iyo samxareo biblioTekasTan. ase rom, SemeZlo wignebi sxva biblioTekebidanac SemekveTa. saministros mier sxva biblioTekebidan SekveTili wignebis 90% CemTan iyrida Tavs. maSin sociologiaSi Zalze bevri wigni wavikiTxe. horsteri: me TvalSi meca is, rom Tqven Zalze xSirad mogyavT citatebi filosofiidan da farTo filosofiur codnas flobT. saidan gaqvT es codna? lumani: nawilobriv es xdeboda universitetSi, magram Cemi interesi iyo da aris seleqciuri. me, upirveles yovlisa, huserli14 mainteresebda. maSin erTi Cemi nacnobisagan krizisis Sesaxeb huserlis Sromis xelnaweri miviRe, kerZod, am Sromis belgraduli varianti. horsteri: ra iyo saintereso TqvenTvis am SromaSi? lumani: ara imdenad TviT fenomenologia, ramdenadac mecnierebisa da Tanamedroveobis kritika. Semdeg me gadavedi ideebis, gamocdilebis da msjelobis kiTxvaze.15 horsteri: Tqven bevri ram aiReT filosofiisagan, magaliTad, sazrisis huserliseuli cneba da is Tqven sistemebis Tqveneul TeoriaSi SeiyvaneT. amasTan, Tqven moaxdineT cnebis modificireba. roca daiwyeT sistemebis Teoriis Camoyalibeba, dainaxeT, rom parsonsis Teorias garkveuli deficiti aqvs. aris Tu ara Tqveni wigni miznis cneba da sistemis racionaloba parsonsis kritika da misi Teoriis Secvla?
12

eduard baumgarteni (1898-1982) germaneli filosofosi da sociologi. 13 maqs veberi (1864-1920) germaneli iuristi, ekonomisti da sociologi. veberma uzarmazari zegavlena moaxdina Tanamedrove sociologiuri azris ganviTarebaze. is iyo aranakleb cnobili kulturis sociologis alfred veberis Zma. 14 edmund huserli (1859-1938) germaneli filosofosi da maTematikosi. fenomenologiis fuZemdebeli. aq lumans mxedvelobaSi aqvs huserlis Sroma: evropuli mecnierebisa da transcendentaluri fenomenologiis krizisi. Sesavali fenomenologiaSi (1936). 15 lumans mxedvelobaSi aqvs huserlis Sromebi: Ideen zu reinen Phnomenologie und phnomenologischen Philosophie (1913) da Erfahrung und Urtei (1939).

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lumani: ara, amas araferi aqvs saerTo parsonsTan. am wignis daweris safuZveli iyo herbert simonis16 publikaciebi. misi wigni Models of Man ormocdaaTian wlebSi gamosvlisTanave wavikiTxe. am wignSi optimizaciis racionalobis koncefciis kritika mainteresebda. warmoebis organizaciis germanelma specialistebma es kritika mxolod mogvianebiT gaiTvaliswines, garda horst halbaxisa,17 romelmac es amerikelebze didi xniT adre aRmoaCina. CemTvis es iyo Zalze saintereso Tema. is, rac maSin organizaciis sociologiaSi arsebobda, ZiriTadad iyo warmoebaze mimarTuli. es sruliad gansxvavdeboda saministroSi muSaobis Cemeuli gamocdilebisgan. sruli uazrobaa, magaliTad, upirovno warmovidginoT piradze da pirovnulze orientirebuli iseTi raRacis miRma, rogoric es saministroa. saerTodac, amiT aixsneba organizaciuli Teoriis arsebobis moTxovnileba, romelic aucilebelia im gamocdilebis asaxsnelad, romelsac adamianebi yoveldRiurad mimarTaven. es iyo sababi, romelmac Cemi gataceba gamoiwvia administraciuli marTvis mecnierebiT, sadac araferi gamosadegi ar iyo. magram arsebobda Public Administration mSvenieri teqstebis wigni, romelic herbert simonma da sxvebma gamosces da romelmac Zalze bevri momca. Cemi wigni miznis cneba da sistemis racionaloba swored aseT konteqstSia dawerili. renate maincma18 xazi gausva organizaciis miznebis mniSvnelobas organizaciis aRsawerad. is warmoebas ganixilavda, rogorc mizanze orientirebul saqmianobas. Cemi kritika am mosazrebis sawinaaRmdegod mivmarTe. risTvis mizani? organizaciebi Signidan unda davinaxoT. es wigni organizaciebisadmi Cemi xangrZlivi, mudmivi interesebis sferos exeba da ara imTaviTve sazogadoebis Teorias. horsteri: Tqvens nawerebSi organizaciis Sesaxeb da es warmoadgens sazogadoebis analizis Tqveneuli midgomis ZiriTad niSans yvelafers sazogadoebrivi funqciis poziciidan ganixilavT. magram aq Tqven jer kidev ar asxvavebT organizaci16

herbert simoni (1916-2001), me-20 saukunis erT-erTi yvelaze gavleniani amerikeli sociologi. nobelis premiis laureati (1978) ekonomikis dargSi (ekonomikur organizaciebSi gadawyvetilebis miRebis procesis novatoruli gamokvlevisaTvis). is ikvlevda gadawyvetilebis miRebis process ekonomikur organizaciebSi. 17 horst halbaxi (daib. 1931) germaneli ekonomisti. 18 renate mainci (daib. 1929) germaneli sociologi, sazogadoebis kvlevis maqs plankis institutis yofili direqtori.

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asa da sazogadoebis funqcionalur sistemebs. aseT gansxvavebas mimarTavT jer kidev gamouqveynebel SromaSi sazogadoebis sazogadoeba, sadac, magaliTad, erTmaneTisagan asxvavebT medicinas, rogorc funqcionalur sistemas, da saavadmyofos, rogorc organizacias medicinis sistemaSi. SeiZleba Tu ara aqedan davaskvnaT, rom Tqven sociologiuri kvlevebis dasawyis etapze jer kidev ar fiqrobdiT sazogadoebrivi sistemebis Teoriis Seqmnaze? lumani: axla Znelia retrospeqtulad amaze zustad raimes Tqma. erTi mxriv, bunebrivia, organizacia mainteresebda, rogorc sakuTari gamocdilebis sfero, sadac vinmes ar SeuZlia raime mimiTiTos. vcdilob empiriuli meTodebi, Tu mas garemodan miRebuli codniT ar Cavanacvleb, am codniT Sevavso mainc. aris Tu ara raime damajerebeli, amas maSin vxvdebi, roca vixseneb an vmonawileob. amgvarad, organizaciis problema da samarTlis sociologiis sakiTxebi SpeierSi Cemi mTavari saqmianoba iyo. es imasTanac aris dakavSirebuli, rom SpeierSi administraciis umaRlesi skola organizaciebisaTvis iuristebs amzadebda da iq kvleviTi centri daarsda, romlis saqmianoba, rogorc maSin uwodebdnen, administraciuli marTvis mecniereba, anu administraciuli marTvis moZRvreba iyo. organizaciis TeoriaSi yovelTvis rCeboda erTgvari namati, romlis gadatana ara-organizaciebzec iyo SesaZlebeli. magram CemTvis srulebiT naTeli gaxda, rom iseTi funqcionaluri sistemebi, rogorebicaa politika da ekonomika, SeuZlebelia ganvixiloT rogorc organizaciebi. religiis, politikis, mecnierebis Tu ekonomikis mimarT interesis gazrdiT warmoiqmna sazogadoebis Teoria. horsteri: e.i. ar SegiZliaT daasaxeloT wertili, romelic aRniSnavda Tqvens gadasvlas organizaciis kvlevidan sazogadoebis TeoriaSi? ufro ityodiT, rom bevri ram, rac organizaciis TeoriaSi aRmoaCineT, SesaZlebelia sazogadoebis sxva sferoebzec gadavitanoT? lumani: ufro vityodi, rac me sistemebis TeoriaSi aRmovaCine. radgan organizacia aris TavisTavadi samyaro. bunebrivia, arsebobs politikis, ekonomikis da a.S. SezRuduli organizaciebi. amis uaryofa SeuZlebelia, magram, magaliTad, ganviTareba demokratiaSi da is, Tu ras niSnavs demokratia, bunebrivia, ar aris organizaciis problema. horsteri: Tqven sistemebis Teoriis Sesaxeb saubrobT. Tqvens wigns, socialuri sistemebi, iwyebT sityvebiT, rom socia97

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luri sistemebi arseboben. Tqven jer isini unda aRmogeCinaT da, amasTan, unda mogeZebnaT garkveuli meToduri midgoma. rogor akeTebT Tqvens Teorias? arsebobs aseve sistemis raRac meTodi? SromaSi sazogadoebis mecniereba Tqven ganasxvavebT Teoriasa da meTods. lumani: yovelTvis arsebobs cnebebi, romelTac meTodologiisa da Teoriis formirebaSi ormagi funqcia aqvT. aseTia, magaliTad, kauzalobis cneba. parsonss im droisaTvis, roca is jer kidev struqturul-funqcionalisti iyo, hqonda warmodgena, rom saWiroa struqturirebuli erTeulebis izolirebulad danaxva, radgan SeuZlebelia mTeli samyaro variaciebis erTobliobad aRviqvaT. aucilebelia, amerikuli universiteti iqneba, Tu sxva ram, struqturulad SemoisazRvros, raTa misi gamokvleva SesaZlebeli iyos. parsonsTan es idea Social System-Sia gamoTqmuli, Semdgom man is Secvala. sistemebis Seswavlis meTodur safuZvels maSin, sistemebis, rogorc sagnebis izolireba warmoadgenda. horsteri: Cven amas vawydebiT huserlTanac, romlis cneba sazrisi meToduri cnebaa, am cnebis meSveobiTac is sagans/obieqts win wamowevs da garemos CrdilSi aqcevs. lumani: diax, diax. is, rom garemos, ase vTqvaT, gamotoveba ar SeiZleba, magram is, rom misi mniSvneloba sistemisaTvis sistemidan gamomdinareobs da ara garemodan, cxadia. arsebobs aseve meToduri midgomebi, magram me saerTo jamSi ufro SedarebiT meTodebze vfiqrobdi, anu funqcionalur analizze, Tu vityviT imas, rom saqme saerTodac meTodebs exeba. horsteri: rogor moxda kontaqtis damyareba helmut SelskisTan19 da rogor yalibdeboda urTierTobebi masTan? lumani: dortmundSi socialuri kvlevebis wris erT moxsenebaze mimiwvies. maT yovel oTxSabaTs moxsenebebi hqondaT, zogjer momxseneblebi iyvnen amave wris adamianebi, zogjer ki ucxoebi. ramdenadac maxsovs, hainc hartmanma20 dampatiJa. me visaubre funqciasa da kauzalobaze. amis Sesaxeb ukve gamovaqveyne. Selski dortmundSi gavicani, is momiyva bilefeldTan dakavSirebul sakuTar gegmebze. es, albaT, 1964 wels iyo. man mkiTxa: davTanxmdebodi Tu ara bilefeldSi muSaobas. me SevekiTxe: risTvis? SpeierSic Zalze kmayofili var. me iq mTeli darbazi maqvs samuSaod da aravin mawuxebs. garda amisa, universiteti CemTvis arcTu ise mimzidvelia-meTqi. Selskis
19 20

helmut Selski (1912-1984) germaneli sociologi da publicisti. hainc hartmani (daib. 1930) germaneli sociologi.

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mniSvnelovani argumenti, bunebrivia, iyo is, rom Cemi arsebis normalizeba unda momexdina. ver SevZlebdi istoriaSi Sesvlas, rogorc disertaciadaucveli umaRlesi mmarTvelobiTi sabWos wevri. horsteri: Sesabamisad, dortmundSi Tqvens moxsenebas Selskize STabeWdileba unda moexdina. lumani: albaT. Semdeg saxlSi dampatiJa da bilefeldTan dakavSirebuli gegmebi gamando. man yvela gza gamixsna: promocia, habilitacia, da umaRlesi samTavrobo sabWodan me gadavedi administraciuli uflebebis mqone mecnier-TanamSromlad, raTa Cemi uflebebi damecva. Semdeg dortmundis socialuri kvlevebis centrSi ganyofilebis gamge gavxdi. es, garkveuli TvalsazrisiT, xelsayreli pozicia iyo. am droisaTvis gadavwyvite sociologi gavmxdariyavi. horsteri: Tqven midiodiT bilefeldis reformistul universitetSi. monawileobdiT Tu ara TviTmmarTvelobaSi, universitetis Sida struqturis formirebaSi da iyo Tu ara amasTan dakavSirebiT daZabuloba? lumani: diax, daZabuloba iyo. isini, vinc sakuTar pozicias Selskis umadlodnen, ajanyeba daiwyes da sakuTar Tavs samocdarva wlis emansipaciis moZraobasTan aigivebdnen. Selski patriarqaluri znis adamiani iyo da is yovelgvar Tavisuflebas iZleoda. mas arasdros ucdia CemTvis Tavze moexvia raime inteleqtualuri. Selskis reformis idea srulebiT gansxvavdeboda im ideisagan, romelic gamefebuli iyo asistentebsa da studentebs Soris. amasTan, Selski, peter qristian ludci da me erT mxares viyaviT. vgoneb, maSin umravlesobis arc erTi wesdebisaTvis xma ar mimicia. garda amisa, saministros am TamaSSi monawileoba ar miuRia. saministros ar SeeZlo imis atana, rom es universiteti sxva universitetebisagan gansxvavebul principze ewyoboda. maSin Selskim, ubralod, ver Seafasa biurokratiis mniSvneloba. is fiqrobda, rom reformebis gatarebas ministrTan an kidev saxelmwifo mdivan lubesTan erTad SeZlebda. Selski, erTi mxriv, biurokratiasa da, meore mxriv, studentebsa da asistentebs Soris dapirispirebam moqanca. es misi tragedia iyo. horsteri: ra iyo Selskis mizani, romelmac is amdeni siZnelis winaSe daayena? lumani: ramdenime aseTi mizani arsebobda. erTi mxriv, es im gamocdilebis koreqtura iyo, romelic mas miunsterSi hqonda. ase magaliTad, SeuZlebeli unda gamxdariyo is, rom erT pro99

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fesors 20 asistenti hyavs da sxvas arc erTi, radgan es ukanaskneli universitetSi axali mosulia. erTi saswavlo procesisaTvis yvelas sami asistenti unda hyoloda, da Tu es asistenti swavlebis uflebas miiRebda, mas SeeZlo disertaciaze muSaobas da kvleviTi gegmebis Sesrulebas mibruneboda. da Tu asistenti yvelafer amas SeZlebda da habilitacias miuaxlovdeboda, mas pasuxismgebloba daekisreboda mxolod asistentebis TviTmmarTvelobaze an raRac amis magvarze, sxva mxriv ki Tavisufali iqneboda. magram formalurad is yovelTvis viRacis asistentad rCeboda. CemTvis cxadi gaxda, Tu ra mniSvneloba hqonda ordinariusis karieris amgvarad mowesrigebul tips asistentis winsvlisaTvis. am winadadebebma xmebis umravlesobiT gaimarjva. arsebobda reformis gansxvavebuli warmodgena, magaliTad, gamocdebTan dakavSirebiT. Cven ganzraxuli gvqonda klauzurebis21 gauqmeba, radgan sociologiaSi marTlac Znelia rame gonivruli moifiqros studentma klauzurisas da, upirveles yovlisa, imis gamo, rom imdeni literatura gamodis, magaliTad, darendorfis Sesaxeb, warmoudgenlad Znelia masze kidev axali fantaziebis ageba. klauzuris nacvlad zepiri gamocda unda daniSnuliyo. magram Semdeg fakultetma warmoadgina gamocdis wesi, sadac Sefasebebi saerTod ar iyo gaTvaliswinebuli da niSnebic ar iwereboda. fakultetis gamocdis am wesebis Tanaxmad, gamomcdeli konfrontaciaSi unda Sesuliyo imasTan, vinc aqamde TvaliT ar hyavda nanaxi da 12 wuTSi unda gadaewyvita, Caabara Tu ara studentma gamocda. me, rogorc sagamocdo samsaxuris xelmZRvanels, es winadadebebi warmomidgines, ris Semdegac gadavdeqi. Selskis winadadebebi, romelTac veTanxmebodi, saerTo jamSi, iyo bevrad iuridiuli, konkretuli, naklebad ideologiuri, magram ar Seefereboda im universitetis dones, romelsac kaTedris gamge profesorebi marTaven. es winadadebebi ufro misi gamocdilebis koreqturas warmoadgenda. horsteri: am droisaTvis unda Semdgariyo kontaqti habermasTan. rogor daiwyo habermasTan kamaTi? man Tqven diskusia SemogTavazaT? lumani: frankfurtSi sagaficvo situaciis gamo droebiT adornos kaTedras vxelmZRvanelobdi. sistemebis Teoriis seminars, sadac ofe da sxvebi modiodnen, gaficva ar Sexebia. garkveuli roli Seasrula sociologebis dRem 1968 w. sadac ga21

weriTi gamocda germaniis skolebsa da universitetebSi.

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movedi moxsenebiT: sistemebis Teoria, rogorc sazogadoebis Teoria. amasTan, studentebma mecadineobebze habermass sTxoves gamoeTqva garkveuli pozicia parsonssa da Cem mimarT. aqedan warmoiqmna seminari, sadac habermasma mimiwvia. Cven studentebis nawerebi movagroveT da sakuTari statiebi/poziciebi CamovayalibeT maTi gamocemis ganzraxviT. magram Semdeg es nawerebi sul ufro da ufro gasqelda, habermasma Semdeg studentebis nawerebi am krebulidan amoiRo da TviTon didi statiebi dawera. Semdeg davwere sazrisis Sesaxeb. aqedan momzadda naSromi sazogadoebis Teoria Tu socialuri teqnologia, romelic 1971 wels gamoqveynda. horsteri: SeiZleba Tu ara vTqvaT, rom Tqven am droisaTvis xedavdiT, rom sociologia samociani wlebis dasawyisSi mxolod klasikosebis SedarebiT da damuSavebiT iyo dakavebuli da mxolod erTaderTi kritikuli Teoria iZleoda SesaZleblobas, sazogadoebis analizisaTvis yofiliyo gamoyenebuli? germanul sociologiaSi kritikuli Teoriis recefciam nacional-socializmis dros amerikaSi warmoqmnili yvela sxva nayofieri sistemis Teoriuli midgoma gadawona, da isini germaniaSi srulebiT ar iqna aRqmuli. gaRelvebdaT Tu ara es, da gadawyviteT Tu ara meti mniSvneloba migeniWebinaT sistemebis TeoriisaTvis, raTa kritikuli TeoriisaTvis sapirwone SegeqmnaT? lumani: diax, magram CemTvis yovelTvis wina planze idga samuSaos logika da ara kiTxva, Tu ra unda meCvenebina frankfurtelebisaTvis. garda amisa, sistemebis Teoria am droisaTvis ar iyo ise ganviTarebuli, rom misi, rogorc alternativis, wardgena yofiliyo SesaZlebeli. horsteri: magram saqme Ria konfrontaciamde mainc mivida. didi xnis manZilze arsebobda sqizma habermasis socialur filosofiasa da lumans Soris. habermasi yovelTvis marqsistad iTvleboda, romelic emansipaciaze iyo pasuxismgebeli, lumani ki konservatori iyo. maSasadame, mxolod habermasis an mxolod lumanis gamoyeneba SeiZleboda. rogor viTardeboda Tqveni pirovnuli urTierTobebi amgvari sazogadoebrivi azris zemoqmedebis fonze? lumani: kargad, da formalurad megobrulad. Cven, albaT, erTgvarad Sexumrebulebi viyaviT. me ar SemiZlia habermasis magivrad vilaparako, magram SemiZlia vTqva, rom es urTierToba kvalifikaciis gamo erTmaneTis pativiscemas emyareboda. es ase iyo aqac, bilefeldis fakultetze. fakultetis 101

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memarcxene wevrebs baton ofes,22 baton bergers da sxvebs sulac ar surdaT maT cudi argumenti hqonodaT da, piriqiT, maTze STabeWdilebas axdenda mowinaaRmdegeebis kvalifikacia. ase rom, publikaciis SerCevisas, disertaciis Sefasebisas mniSvnelovani gansxvavebebi ar arsebobda. es viTareba saqmes Zalze sasiamovnos xdida. kiTxulobdnen imas, rasac sxvebi werdnen. aman iqamde migviyvana, rom zurkampis Teoriuli tomebis gamomcemlebSi Sevedi. seriozuli problemebi Cven iqac ar gvqonia. tomebis gamocema unseldis23 mizeziT da ara Cvens gamo Sewyda. horsteri: Tu arsebobda aramecnieruli, vTqvaT, politikuri mizezi, sistemebis Teoriis arCevisaTvis? dakavSirebulia es omis dasrulebis Semdeg momxdar sistemis cvlilebasTan? habermasi ambobs, rom ki; rom, Tu mzeras adamianebis mentalitetze SevaCerebT, 1945 wels sistemis cvlileba ar momxdara. habermasi ase unda xedavdes, radgan is, rogorc moqmedebis Teoretikosi, adamianebs sazogadoebis Semadgenel nawilad miiCnevs. TqvenTan adamiani sazogadoebis sistemis gareTaa. amitom me vvaraudob, rom Tqven amas ase xedavT sistema sazogadoeba 1945 wels Seicvala, magram individebis cnobiereba ar Secvlila. am TvalsazrisiT, aranairi gansxvaveba habermasis mosazrebebTan ar arsebobs, da aseve, habermasis msgavsad, 1945 wels Tqvenc gadatrialebad miiCnevT. lumani: diax, Tumca gadatrialeba SeiZleba yovelTvis ganvixiloT uwyvetobisa da wyvetis nazavad. es erTi mxarea. magram araviTar SemTxvevaSi ar vgulisxmob imas, rom funqciis cnebisagan gansxvavebiT sistemis cneba imitom miviRe, rom problemis gadawyveta, romlisTvisac funqcionaluri ekvivalentebi arseboben, sxvagvarad SesaZlebelia. Tema funqcia substanciis winaaRmdeg me Zalian mainteresebda. maSin Cemze kasirerma24 moaxdina STabeWdileba. es Tema 1945 wlis Semdeg miRebuli gamocdilebebis sainterpretacio instruments ufro warmoadgenda. horsteri: sistemis Teoriis sasargeblod gadawyvetilebis miReba xom ar moxda literaturidan, magaliTad, universitetSi mosmenili leqciebidan gamomdinare?
22

klaus ofe (daib.1940) germaneli politologi, frankfurtis skolis meore Taobis warmomadgeneli. 23 zigfrid unseldi (1924-2002) germaneli gamomcemeli, gamomcemloba zurkampis xelmZRvaneli. 24 ernst kasireri (1874-1945) germaneli filosofosi da mwerali.

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lumani: ara, universitetSi swavlis dros ara, radgan iuristebs sistemis sruliad gansxvavebuli gageba hqondaT. samarTlis mecnierebidan me aranairi sababi ar mqonia sistemis TeoriaSi memuSava. es moxda jer kidev ormocdaaTian wlebSi, kerZod, funqcionalizmis Rrmad gaazrebiT da im kiTxvis gaazrebiTac, Tu saidan modian sakuTriv problemebi, romlebic amgvarad Tu sxvagvarad SeiZleba iqnas gadaWrili. ase magaliTad, samarTlebriv doneze: Tu xelSekrulebaSi Secdomis, dapirispirebisa da Sedegis miuRwevlobis problemebi warmoiSva, maSin rogor SeiZleba saqme SemovatrialoT? arsebobs gansxvavebuli figurebi, romlebic garkveuli problemis gadaWras amgvarad an sxvagvarad cdiloben. am konteqstSi mainteresebda sakiTxi, Tu ra aris safuZveli, saerTod ratom iqmneba problemebi da rogor aris SesaZlebeli wesrigi? horsteri: e.i. Tqven winaSe imTaviTve idga sakiTxi imis Sesaxeb, Tu rogor aris SesaZlebeli wesrigi sazogadoebaSi arsebuli problemebis, disfunqcionalobisa da iracionalobebis miuxedavad? lumani: diax, da Tu rogor SeiZleba erTmaneTs eTanxmebodes problemis gadaWris sxvadasxva gzebi. magaliTad, fulad-ekonomikur mdgomareobas zegavlena aqvs ojaxebis Seqmnaze. fulad-ekonomikuri problemis mogvareba SesaZlebelia mdidarze qorwinebiT. me swored es urTierTdamokidebuleba mainteresebda. horsteri: 1984 wels Tqven socialuri sistemebi gamoaqveyneT. Tqveni azriT, SeiZleba vTqvaT, rom amis Semdeg sistemis Teoria mzad iyo? an ratom uwodebT 1984 wlamde gamosul Tqvens Sromebs sacdel serias? lumani: es exeba sazogadoebis Teorias, da is jer kidev ar aris damTavrebuli, magram idea iyo sazogadoebis Teoriis Sesavali Tavis wardgena. es ramdenadme gascda sazRvrebs. Semdeg Seiqmna xelnawerTa krebuli sazogadoebis Teoria, anu sazogadoebis sazogadoeba, romelic Tavidan uzarmazar qaRaldis grovas warmoadgenda, Semdeg is Semoklda da italiurad gamoica. xolo mogvianebiT gamovida calkeuli funqcionaluri sistemebi, ekonomika, mecniereba, xelovneba da a.S. am traqtatebis seriiT daviwye 1983-1984 ww. publikaciebze fiqri. da yvelaferi, rac Semdeg calkeul wignad daibeWda, warmoadgenda aqsesuarebs. horsteri: mainc rogor mimdinareobda procesi, grCebaT Tu ara STabeWdileba, rom Teoria momwifebulia gamosaqveyneblad? 103

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lumani: STabeWdileba, rom Teoria mzad aris, ar maqvs, magram teqsti zedmetad gadatvirTulia. arsebobda gancda, rom misi wakiTxva srulebiT SeuZlebeli iyo. SeiZleboda masSi kidev raRacebis gakeTeba, axali Tavis, axali monakveTebis da axali SeniSvnebis Setana, magram Semdeg gaCnda gancda, rom umjobesia, is gamoqveyndes daumTavrebeli formiT. horsteri: magram odesRac TavisTavad unda gaCeniliyo STabeWdileba, roca adamiani ityoda: axla aris swored is dro, rom SeiZleba sakuTari sistemis Teoriis gamoqveyneba. SegiZliaT gaixsenoT, Tu rodis dadga es dro? lumani: es Zneli saTqmelia. arsebobs xelnawerebi, nawilobriv statiis formis, gamoqveynebuli da gamouqveynebeli. kvlevebis germanul sazogadoebas25 mbeWdavis gamoyofis Sesaxeb formalurad mivmarTe. me arasodes myofnida erTi mdivani. magram kvlevis germanulma sazogadoebam miTxra, rom es ar gamova, rom mdivnis gamoyofa universitetis saqmea. erTaderTi, rac maT SeeZloT erCiaT, iyo is, rom ameRo Svebuleba, radgan Semdeg damemtkicebina, rom mdivani droebiT asrulebda Cems movaleobas, xolo me damatebiT mbeWdavi unda myoloda. asec gavakaTe. bevri mbeWdavi arasdros myavda. samocdaaTiani wlebidan gadauwereli da gamouqveynebeli manuskriptebis mTeli masa damigrovda. horsteri: am teqstebis masasTan aris Tu ara kavSirSi is, rom Tqven yvela wignSi, anu kvleviT traqtatSi, pirvel 100-200 gverdze ukve nacnobs Tavidan ganmartavT? ratom fiqrobT, rom pirvel gverdebze unda iyos is, rac mkiTxvelma ukve icis? lumani: SegviZlia ki imedi viqonioT, rom arseboben adamianebi, romelTac Cemi yvela wigni wakiTxuli aqvT, an mxolod samarTali, siyvaruli (rogorc semantika), an politika ainteresebT? amitom me yovelTvis vcdilob SesavalSi gavimeoro erTi da igive, raTa wigni, rogorc mTeli, mimzidveli gavxado. vfiqrob, vinc yvelafer amas ukve icnobs, ufro Cqara SeZlebs Cemi sxva Sromebis wakiTxvas. horsteri: Tqven ambobT, rom TqvenTvis gamoqveyneba yovelTvis iyo dakavSirebuli weris problemasTan. magram amasobaSi arsebobs mistificirebuli katalogebi. da Tqven erTxel TqviT, rom wignebs katalogebze dayrdnobiT werT. SegiZliaT aRweroT, Tu rogor mimdinareobs es da rogor alagebdiT am baraTebs?
25

Die Deutsche Forschungsgemeinschaft (DFG) germanuli organizacia, romelic mecnierebs da maT samecniero kvlevebs afinansebs.

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lumani: katalogSi Calagebulia baraTebis wyeba da zogjer asobiT baraTi, magaliTad, paradoqsebi. horsteri: modiT SevCerdeT paradoqsis cnebasTan, romelsac Tqven baraTze werT. ra xdeba Semdeg? lumani: es aris literaturis produqti da is, rac literaturis kiTxvisas azrad momiva. magaliTad, kiTxva: seriozulad ganixileba Tu ara me-18 saukunis paradoqsi? me-16 saukuneSi es namdvilad iyo. Semdeg Cans, rom erTmaneTisagan unda ganvasxvaoT ritorikuli da logikuri paradoqsi. jer grovdeba baraTebi da Semdeg iqmneba imgvarad agebuli saorientacio qseli, rom identobis Tema paradoqsze miuTiTebs da piriqiT. horsteri: TvalSi momxvda, rom iseTi Tema, rogoricaa, magaliTad, simbolurad generalizebuli komunikaciis mediebi, romelic Tqven sociologiur ganmanaTleblobaSi da socialur sistemaSi daamuSaveT, sazogadoebis mecnierebaSi Zalze farTod ganavrceT da Semdgom gamouqveynebel xelnawerSi sazogadoebis sazogadoeba am cnebam kvlav ganicada gaSla-gafarToeba. es miuTiTebs imaze, rom baraTi ufro gaizarda. lumani: werisas, bunebrivia, warmoiqmneba teqstebis simravle, romelic katalogSi ar aris. zogjer Cndeba ideebi, romlebic erTbaSad nayofieri aRmoCndeba xolme da is ar Segvaqvs katalogSi. horsteri: e.i. isini katalogSi ar brundeba? lumani: yovelTvis ara. zogjer ki _ Tu iqmneba STabeWdileba imisa, rom raRac idea aq mokledaa warmodgenili da igi sxva miznebisaTvis SeiZleba damWirdes. horsteri: roca raime gWirdebaT, Tqven sakuTar wignebSic ixedebiT. erTxel odo marquardma26 Tqva, rom Tqveni wignebi Tavad warmoadgens katalogs. lumani: diax, diax da, upirveles yovlisa, axla momavali wignebisaTvis xelnaweris saxiT momzadebuli maqvs didi masala. axla, roca religiis Sesaxeb raimes vkiTxulob, vixedebi xelnawerSi sazogadoebis religia da amas pirdapir iq vakeTeb da ara katalogSi. saqme isaa, rom xelnawerebs gamoqveynebamde winandelze metad uwevT dacda.
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odo marquardi (daib. 1928) germaneli filosofosi. eseebs ZiriTadad iumoristul da polemistur stilSi wers. sakuTar Semoqmedebas is uwodebs transcendentalur beletristikas. misi adreuli Sromebi exeba istoriis filosofias, naturfilosofiasa da germanul idealizms.

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horsteri: im wignis saxelwodeba, romelSic citataa mocemuli, vgulisxmob Sromas sazogadoebis sazogadoeba, garkveul axsnas saWiroebs. ra mniSvneloba aqvs am xelovnur termins? lumani: erTi mxriv, maqvs moTxovnileba, yovel wignSi yvelaze mcire erTi uazroba mainc Sevitano. magram am konkretul SemTxvevaSi saqme namdvilad asea. saTaurs me amgvarad vxsni: sazogadoebis sazogadoeba aris sazogadoebis aRwera sazogadoebaSi, da es imavdroulad aris wigni, is ar aris mxolod wignis Tema. horsteri: es im mniSvnelobiT xom ar unda gavigoT, ra mniSvnelobiTac rorts esmis Sumpeteris27 erTgvarad paradoqsuli citata, rom adamiani sakuTari mosazrebis sisworeSi met-naklebad darwmunebuli unda iyos da, amasTanave, misi dacvac uSiSrad unda SeeZlos? lumani: rasakvirvelia, sistemebis Teoria yvela SemTxvevaSi uwyveti saqmianobaa. is ar gamodis pretenziiT, iyos erTaderTi swori Teoria, Tumca is universalurad aris Sedgenili. man pasuxi unda agos yvelaferze, rac sazogadoebaSi xdeba, magram is uciloblad erTaderTi swori koncefcia ar aris. am Teoriis dafuZneba dakavSirebulia paradoqsebTan. zustad rom ganvmarto, Cemi stili ironiulia. amiT minda vTqva: nu aRmiqvamT seriozulad an nu gamigebT ase swrafad. horsteri: nebismierisaTvis, vinc iseve produqtiulia, rogorc Tqven, albaT, ar arsebobs Tavisufali dro an kidev ojaxuri cxovreba. Tu SegiZliaT amis SeTavseba? lumani: roca dro maqvs, bunebrivia, mecnierebis sferoSi vmuSaob. rasac dro miaqvs, aris mogzauroba, ris SezRudvasac axla vcdilob. aseve dros marTmevs sxvebis moTxovnilebiT siaruli, imis keTeba, risi keTebac sxvas ar surs. rac Seexeba ojaxs: Cemi meuRle adre gardaicvala. bavSvebi, ra Tqma unda, myavs. isini nawilobriv CemTan cxovroben. magram ojaxi drois TvalsazrisiT damamZimebel garemoebad ar unda ganvixiloT. ufro mniSvnelovania is, rom mocemul momentSi adamianebma marTali sityva uTxran erTmaneTs, vidre saaTobiT erTad isxdnen. interesebic imdenad gansxvavebulia, rom Zalian cota ram aris, rasac adamianebi erTad gaakeTebdnen. Cven zogjer TviTmfrinaviT erTad vmgzavrobT. me Cems qaliSvilTan erTad sankt-peterburgSi viyavi. norvegiaSic gaxldiT da gemiT
27

iozef alois Sumpeteri (1883-1950) avstrieli ekonomisti. ekonomikaSi Semoitana cnebebi: Semoqmedi mewarme da SemoqmedebiTi ngreva konkurenciis meSveobiT.

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tromsodan trondhaimamde vimgzavreT. Cems vaJebTan iorgTan da klemensTan erTad mexikoSi viyavi. unda gaviTvaliswinoT is, rom me da Cems vaJebs gansxvavebuli interesebi gvaqvs, ufro meti saerTo maqvs qaliSvilTan. klemenss, rogorc eqims, meqsikaSi aucileblad surda Ciapis tomis indielebis xilva da, am mizniT, marto gaemgzavra maT sanaxavad. me ki mexikoSi davbrundi. xolo momdevno wels, roca iorgTan erTad mexikoSi viyavi, guadalaxaris universitetis sapatio doqtoris xarisxi miviRe. amas mohyva mipatiJeba sadilze. roca iorgma es SeniSna, momdevno TviTmfrinavze aiRo bileTi, daiqirava manqana da martom gaagrZela mogzauroba. ojaxSi mniSvnelovani aris is, rom ojaxis wevrebs sakmarisi gageba hqondeT imisa, rasac sxvebi akeTeben da rac sayovelTao idilias emsaxureba.

Targmna emzar jgerenaiam

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