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that something so offensive would be so embraced and accepted within the group
(even while today viewing it as taboo if coming from a person outside the group).
I don't know if anyone has any thoughts, but ... feel free.
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The original slaves, who were "imported" for a significant period of time, were
kidnapped. When they arrived in America, no effort was made to keep African tribal
communities together. They were to a significant extent stripped of many of their
cultural, linguistic and institutional anchors. Dominated by their captors. That's why
the concept hit me, that it might be applicable. And might have some residual
effects even to this day.
As to the rehabilitation of the "N-word" (a dumb-ass idea if I ever heard one) ...
are you saying that in the 1950's, and earlier, black Americans rarely use that
term? That its usage was the invention of 1960s activists?
I understand about throwing it out there as an idea. I think it has some usefulness.
That's what we engineers and scientists say about models. ;)
Quote from: michaelintp on August 25, 2010, 08:30:57 am
As to the rehabilitation of the "N-word" (a dumb-ass idea if I ever heard one) ... are you saying that in the
1950's, and earlier, black Americans rarely use that term? That its usage was the invention of 1960s
activists?
No. As far as I know, the attempt to rehabilitate the N-word, if that's what it is (my
nigga, etc.), is relatively recent, 1990s or so. I was speaking about the
rehabilitation of the word black. Before the 60s, black was taken as an insult. I
believe Negro or Colored were the preferred terms. I'm not saying the N-word
wasn't used by black people (Negroes) before then but I believe it was pretty much
exclusively derogatory.
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Deep...
I've even heard slavery described as a "Genie in a bottle waiting to get out".
Deep...
I've even heard slavery described as a "Genie in a bottle waiting to get out".
I'd probably liken it more to a powder keg waiting to explode. You have to think
that eventually a reckoning was going to some whether the Civil War happened or
not. Nat Turner's uprising may not have led to freedom, but there were others
watching and listening....I'd like to think that, anyway.
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that you should at the same time be found guilty of that most criminal act, which
you professedly detested in others, with respect to yourselves." Benjamin
Banneker in a letter to Tom Jefferson
This was written by a black man to THE PRESIDENT in the 1700s.
Stockholm Syndrome, my ass.
I guess that explains that birth certificates now state "black" instead of "colored".
There is a video out on youtube that takes a jab at it. It is called "Ninja, Say What"
In sum it is basically a number Asian or pacific islanders (I just don't know the
proper term I can't stand saying african american just as much) are calling each
other "ninja"
Thanks for the clarification; when I read your post I read the word "black" as
"back" and that threw off my understanding. Need new bifocals, I guess.
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So from the comments above, I see a kinda mixed reaction but mostly rejecting
the concept.
So, for those who do reject the notion that, in a pardoxical sort of way, there is a
certain wedding to the very thing you despise the most, in the use of vulgar
demeaning racist slurs and the like, what motivates such behavior? Because
honestly, I don't see it as pronounced in any other ethnic group. Generally
speaking, particularly in public, ethnic groups try to build themselves up; even in
private while there may be slurs they are usually not ethnic in nature (but rather
just personal insults and the like).
For example nowadays, when a person hears the word JAP, at least 5 times out of
10 they'll think of Jewish American Princess, not someone who is Japanese. That
phrase, used by Jews, is an example of the self-mockery of sorts that I described
above regarding a sub-segment of their group (usually said with some humor), but
I could never imagine Jews running around saying "What's happening Kike?!"
"How's it going Shylock?!"
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had the Warsaw Ghetto uprising, and a few others, and Jews fighting as partisans
("all the time"), but the vast majority of Jews did not put up massive resistance.
Not because of any character flaw, but because ... they couldn't, with most doing
as they were told, with some engaging in denial and in a number of other defense
mechanisms. And all that took place over a relatively short period of time, not
decade after decade after decade.
Inform me. Why do you say the slave uprisings were constant? Any sense of how
frequently they took place? The percentage of slaves who participated in such
uprisings? How widespread they were? Whether they were more prevalent in some
locations more than others, and if so why? Were they really so common and
widespread, or did the whites conflate them into more than they were? This is
interesting.
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subliminal motivation, it is contradicted by the fact that the there still is (for good
reason) great sensitivity and outrage when an outsider uses the same terms or
even makes reference to the same terms. Which is why, I believe, the norm you
see in most other groups who were subjected to bigotry and hate is an
unambiguous repudiation of the use of such repulsive jargon, period.
I'm just trying to make sense out of this. Because it makes no sense to me
whatsoever.
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Strange.
He keeps asking the same question over and over as if...? ??? ?
Nope, it's not and I don't care about the others. I'm not in the business of
offending people that way. I tend to lean on personal insults rather than collective
ethnic or gender ones because it's the person that's pissing me off, not the group.
The difference here is that, amongst ourselves, just as some gay people can refer
to other gays as fags or dykes with affection, that word has nuances based on
collective history and shared experience. Woe betide the straight person who does
so and with good reason. If you're not one of "us" you don't get to share. It's not
complex so I wonder why you're making it so.
Quote
I would also add that, far from not being "done" with it, a lotta folk in the black Media and Entertainment
Industries continue to actively promote it. I was just trying to figure out why.
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No, it's not an issue. It's none of your business, ultimately. All you need to know is
1) Don't call black people niggers unless you're looking for trouble. 2) Your
understanding of the "issue" is not required or requested.
There can be no meeting of the minds on this. If you're not black, you can't meet.
End of story.
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18th century. This fact helped the slave owners survive the cutting off of imports in
1808. Between the censuses of 1790 and 1860 the slave population of the
South expanded enormouslyfrom 657,327 to 3,838,765one of the fastest
rates of population growth ever recorded prior to the advent of modern medicine.
Paradoxically, although the Southern slave regime was one of the most
dehumanizing ever recorded, it was one of the most favourable on record
demographically, because the nutritional and general living environments were
highly conducive to explosive population growth. Without significant imports the
Southern slave population increased fourfold between the early 1800s and 1860.
Slave Protest
Throughout history human beings have objected to being enslaved and have
responded in myriad ways ranging from individual shirking, alcoholism, flight, and
suicide to arson, murdering owners, and mass rebellion. Perhaps the most
common individual response to enslavement was sluggishness, passivity,
and indifference. A nearly universal stereotype of the slave was of a lying,
lazy, dull brute who had to be kicked or whipped. There probably were
three mutually reinforcing factors at work: an unconscious response to
overcontrol and absence of freedom, a conscious effort to sabotage the
master's desires, and a conditioned response to the expectation of
stereotypical behaviour. Some owners tried to overcome such behaviour by a
system of incentives or by strict regimentation, such as the gang system, but
historically they were in a minority. Less frequent was suicide. A number of slaves
are known to have jumped overboard during the Middle Passage because they
feared that the transatlantic voyage was taking them to be eaten by witches or
barbarians, a fate that seemed worse than drowning.
Flight, either individually or in groups, was one of the most visible forms of protest
against enslavement. The rates of flight, which varied greatly from society to
society throughout history, usually depended less on individual slave-owner
conduct than on the likelihood of success. Immediate conditions, such as the
brutality of an overseer or master or a temporary lapse of supervision, often
precipitated slave flight, but willingness to undertake such a form of rebellion
against the system was usually determined by such factors as the accessibility of
refuge or the ability to blend in with the free population (some societies marked
slaves to inhibit such blending). Slave flight was infrequent in societies such as the
peacetime American South or in West Africa, where a refuge of freedom was very
distant. In East Africa, where flight was curtailed by slave owners united in their
desire to prevent it in spite of a high demand for labour, runaways joined
neighbouring communities and then raided their former masters. For more than
two centuries fugitive slaves in Brazil known as maroons set up independent
polities, or quilombos, that lasted for years. Maroon communities were found in
many other places in Latin America and the Caribbean as well. In Muscovy, where
most of the slaves were natives or of similar origin (Poles and Swedes), where
there was an open frontier, and where masters had no compunction about taking in
other owners' slaves, the rate of flight was very high; and as many as a quarter to
a third of the slaves ran away. In China flight by male slaves was also common.
During the American Revolution, when the slave owners were occupied with
fighting the British, fugitive slaves numbered in the tens of thousands.
Direct, personal attacks on slave owners often were determined by the nature of
the slave regime. Where owners believed they enjoyed automatic sexual access to
female slaves, both the women and their husbands were prone to respond by
assaulting the owners or their agents. In Hausaland, killings by concubines instilled
great fear in slave owners. Where slaves were driven, assault on the drivers was
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Or don't. I suspect you had your conclusion drawn when you started.
Just for kicks, look up the Black Seminole revolt. Strangely omitted from the lofty
BRITANNICA and yet a fairly big chunk of American history. Shock.
Seriously. You're in the shallow end of this thing. Just because I'm not doing the
work for you doesn't mean I'm making things up.
If you mean to seriously explore these issues rather than ask inflammatory and
often insensitive "anthropological" questions, get off your intellectual ass and DIG.
Good idea 'cause that $#@!-ing troll is just acting out in his usual manner...
---being nosey.
He may not want me to post some of the salacious sh!t and attempt to embarass
about his ethnic/religious whatever group is notorious for on the street level
without getting into some long drawn-out troll fest so instead I'll just put him on
perma-ignore like some of the other HEF troops.
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*in
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quality
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How anyone can interpret anything I've written on this thread as a put down is
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beyond me. Either you believe that the past history of slavery had an impact that
still resonates into the present, or you do not believe that. If you do believe that,
the first step is to understand what that history was for the vast majority of
individuals affected. The next step, if you do believe that, is to then address the
question ... in what ways does it still resonate.
The claim that this topic is taboo, is, well, unwarranted. On the other hand, I've
little emotional investment in this topic, tending to operate more in analytic
machine mode. It some of you, like Geoff, find it too "close to home" to discuss,
too upsetting too discuss with anyone who is not black, or who does not already
embrace everything you think and feel with uncritical acceptance, well, I can
understand and respect that too. For totally legitimate reasons this is a far more
emotional issue for many of you than it is for me. One that some of you would
rather not discuss. In that case, I guess we can just move on. Again, my intention
was not to upset of offend anyone.
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I don't make "claims." I make declarative statements that are supported by facts.
But I don't have justify anything or even PRESENT anything to you, Michael. If
your'e so effin interested, then look into this DEEPLY. Your pathetic citation of
BRITANNICA and Wiki shows the tiny extent to which you are truly willing to
commit to your "interest."
On a personal note: Stop talking about me. Don't paraphrase me. Don't bring up
my name or positions anymore. I am out of this conversation with you. Or any
others. I've had it. Feel free to do whatever else you want but leave me out of it.
Completely. I'm done. And don't pm me either. I'm serious as a heart attack about
this.
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Oh I disagree. I've ALWAYS seen you as a troll, and for that reason have avoided
directly talking to you until now. You've just never been as overt as you've been
with this THIS thread. The closest you came was scrambling to defend Dr. Laura,
so I guess this should have been an obvious segue.
ALL of your posts that I have seen, including this one, appears to be designed to
show us the error of our (black people) ways, as if you're some missionary trying
to save us savages from ourselves. You're not interested in discussion, you never
have been, only in telling. When that backfires, like it normally does, it culminates
with the usual exasperation "Don't you see???" or some form thereof.
Quote
Guys, in light of some of our other discussions this idea just hit me, and I shared it to see what people
thought. Nothing more to it than that. Neither Wise Son nor Curtis responded in a petulant fashion,
because, I believe, they understood that I was just throwing out an idea.
What does that mean? That they're good negroes by not being petulant? ???
Quote
Frankly, Redjack's explanation with regard to the use of derogatory slurs in everyday conversation (without
the intent of being derogatory in that context) makes some sense, though this does not change the fact that
it is unusual. I'm not sure if everyone here agrees with him. But I don't know; there may be more to it.
Maybe not, however. I believe the responses of Curtis and Wise Son at the outset of this thread reflected
serious attempts to address a complex and subtle issue regarding the effect of the past on the present.
"Serious attempts", huh? Yet your mind remains unchanged, and you refuse to
accept that this is something that you cannot grasp and perhaps never will. No one
is promoting the use of the n-word. And that still doesn't change the fact Dr. Laura
was WRONG for using it. Period. No one's opinion matters but your own, that's why
threads like this are ultimately a waste of time. You don't want to learn, you want
to teach, but how can you teach us about ourselves? I think we know better in that
regard that you.
Quote
In our discussion of racial issues on the forum, I've noted the view of many that it is important to look to
the past to explain the present. It was in that context that the thought occurred to me that some of the
horrific experiences people suffered during slavery might have had a "cultural" effect (and later Jim Crow,
though slavery was the most hellish experience of all) ... though my instinctive reaction has always been to
dismiss that line of argument because slavery took place so long ago. My second concern regarding that line
of thinking is that it can lead to stereotyped thinking with regard to other individuals, which goes against
everything I believe in. But on the other hand, perhaps culture does have a life of its own that can continue
for generations, affecting even those persons who did not experience some of the most dramatic events that
forged that culture. So I really don't know. These comments are not limited to "black culture" but apply to
all cultures and sub-cultures.
The irony of this is I have noticed that stockholm syndrome as you have been
describing it seems prevalent in the LATINO community. Unlike you, though, I
would gladly hear and accept arguments that prove me wrong, because that is a
nihilist way of looking at things. I actually want to learn, and do not consider
myself a self-appointed authority on the matter that only allows an act of congress
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I think you try and hide your true intent with long diatribes, or rather screeds, like
this. Wiki and Encyclopedia Britanica are not the end all be all of information on
history. And YOU KNOW THIS. Wiki should only be used as a starting point,
because while the site is moderated, the fact still remains anyone can put anything
on it, and you don't know when the mods will notice. It may be AFTER you get the
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No, its not taboo, just amazingly foolish cause there is no information to back this
up, just your own opinion and cursory glances. You're trying to tell US, black
people, that you have looked at our culture from the outside and made these
determinations, like you have any idea what you're talking about. You always play
these games on this forum, and because you make it into long essays, people (like
the non petulant members you mentioned) attempt to engage you in conversation,
when you're not doing anything other than humoring them. Others, like Red Jack,
see right through your bull and call you on it.
Just so we're clear, I'M not trying to convince you of a damn thing. I'm taking a
page from your book and keeping my mind made up about you. Difference is I'm
basing it on your patterns through the years, and if there's ever any doubt or
reason why, all I have to do is come right back to this thread, arguably the most
arrogant and ridiculous one you've made to date, the ultimate culmination of your
"contribution" to this site. I will never understand why the owners have not ejected
you PERMANENTLY ages ago.
I want to talk about it all day long, but not with people whose minds are closed like
yours is. I just wish you were honest about that fact but, hey, if wishes were
horses.
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BP, all I did was ask a question. My mind is not at all made up on this issue. Not at
all. Indeed, I explained that I have very mixed feelings about the whole subject,
for the reasons I stated above. If you carefully read what I wrote, above, instead of
simply employing assumptions, you will see that. If you don't wish to discuss the
topic, that's your right.
If you read what I wrote carefully, you will note that I agreed that the explanation
provided as to the use of normally offensive words in a non-offensive context made
some sense, even though it is unusual. How does that show that my mind is "made
up?"
My point in the latter part of the discussion above, regarding slavery and the
magnitude of the uprisings, is that black people are no different than any other
people. That people subjected to unimaginable circumstances, such as slavery (or
the Holocaust), respond in ways that for us, from the comfort of our armchairs, my
be difficult to fathom. Because it is not how we imagine we would like to see
ourselves respond in similar circumstances. God willing, may none of us ever face
circumstances so horrible.
As to the magnitude of the uprisings during the Civil War, I did what was
recommended. The post was long as I made a point to both cite and quote the
material, as I thought some folks might actually be interested in it. I never
imagined that Encyclopedia Britannica could evoke such emotion! :o
Yeah, except they are. No other ethnic group had their culture stripped away to the
point that black people has. And to imply that they sympathize or want to be like
the dominant group who did that to us, with two (!!) resources to back that up?
More on that below...
Quote
That people subjected to unimaginable circumstances, such as slavery (or the Holocaust), respond in ways
that for us, from the comfort of our armchairs, my be difficult to fathom. Because it is not how we imagine
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we would like to see ourselves respond in similar circumstances. God willing, may none of us ever face
circumstances so horrible.
This is where you pretend empathy to hide your true motivations to teach. Easier
to point out without a 50 page essay you're used to writing.
Quote
As to the magnitude of the uprisings during the Civil War, I did what was recommended. The post was long
as I made a point to both cite and quote the material, as I thought some folks might actually be interested
in it. I never imagined that Encyclopedia Britannica could evoke such emotion! :o
This is where you play games, here in the form of rephrasing the argument.
Apparently you're some form of lawyer, so you know better than to use TWO
resources (one, wiki, which technically doesn't count) and then calling it a day.
And, I love this one, "employ assumptions" like you accused me of doing to cover
your tracks. The only emotion evoked is annoyance that one who knows better like
yourself isn't actually digging for information, only strengthening his own point.
These are all the markings of a troll, clear and clear, you're just the more
sophisticated kind, but then again not really. Like Red Jack said, you see this as
sociology class with yourself as not even the teacher but as the dean who is
lowering himself to teach in the first place. Disgusting. Further conversation with
you is no different than wrestling with a pig, the person wrestling just gets dirty
and the pig enjoys it. You're feeding off this in some way, and I'm done
contributing to it. Maybe the other "non-petulant" members will give you the ego
boost you need, I don't know. I'm just back to wondering how you're still here.
One of life's mysteries.
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When drawing comparisons and contrasts, one can point out similarities and
differences in horrific circumstances others have experienced. Because there are
similarities. There are also differences. I agree that the being largely "stripped" of
one's traditional African culture is a major distinction from the experience of some
other subjugated groups. So ... how did that play out, in terms of the black
American culture that did develop under slavery?
When I asked the question about Stockholm Syndrome, I was not suggesting that
black Americans today support the racism and oppression of the slave master.
What I was referring to is the fact that this culture did develop under slavery for
many many years, though not for the last 150 years. What I was wondering about
is whether some aspects of that racism, while consciously rejected as repulsive,
still found its way into some unconscious aspects of the culture, in a paradoxical
sort of way. If the subculture was forged in a cauldron of racism for generations
before emancipation, what impact did that have on the subculture? After
emancipation, did that impact wholly dissipate, or are there still effects to this day?
With the N-word thing possibly being an example. It was just a question.
But the issue is really broader than this. The broader issue is the impact of slavery,
period.
To the extent people do discuss this topic, I'll hold back, as I'm more interested in
what others have to say. If folks don't want to address this issue, then that's that.
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