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Eisenhower
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Disneyland
Posts: 16
A320 S speed question
Once I was flying the 320 on a terminal are, and were requested to slow down. So I asked for F1, what
led the airplane to fly at S speed, around 182kt. The APP requested the speed to be reduced to 170kt,
so, as we were far from the airport, and I did not want the airplane to fly with the flaps out, I manually
selected the speed at 170, thus flying below the S speed. I did so because I understood that the
minimum speed I could fly in would be VLS, as, the name says, is the Lowest Selectable speed. The
captn of the flight told me I was wrong, and should never have done it. That I could not fly below S
speed, and, instead, had to ask for F2 and fly above F speed. Does he have a valid point ?
15th Mar 2006, 14:38
Check Airman
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Cheers,
mcdhu
15th Mar 2006, 16:13
TopBunk
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Lets say I want to make a close in turn, and select on PERF v2+10 or +20, so I can climb faster and
have a minimum turn ratio. Then we would have the aircraft flying close to the ground, still with a
speed under S. Would that be something wrong to do ?
15th Mar 2006, 19:14
LUPA
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TopBunk
The operating policy in my company (BA), is to 'give consideration' to selecting flap 2 when atc
request a speed between S speed and Vls on the approach.
I personally prefer this approach, ie to leave it to the pilot 'on the day'.
I think it depends on the prevailing conditions and flight profile.
Personal reasons for taking flap 2:
- above the glideslope (goes down better with F2)
- in icing (incr thrust with TAI on)
- in turbulence (better margins)
- if more than about 15kts below S-Speed
Personal reasons for sticking at flap 1:
- smooth air conditions
- more than 8nm to touchdown and below glideslope.
Just my thoughts....
I like this idea better tham my own. The environment in which we work is too dynamic for hard and
fast rules written in stone. Assess the situation, then take appropriate action. It could be that 99% of the
time, one procedure works fine, but we're paid to use judgement and call upon our experience as
professionals.
16th Mar 2006, 17:23
Eisenhower
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No Airline's Flight Data Monitoring program ought to pick up pilots for operating well within the
aircraft envelope, as in the situation LUPA describes...just because on a 'normal' line flight we only
move the flaps in one direction after we have cleaned up post-takeoff, doesn't mean that we can't! What
if ATC changed their minds and asked for green dot speed (220kts?) again, after requesting 180? Would
you expect FOQA to pick up on that if no limit speeds we exceeded on minimum speeds underflown?
I would expect not - b*llocking pilots who don't fly 'just so' is not what FOQA does - speak to your
Flight Safety department about the system and learn about the benefits for all of us, rather than
subscribe to the usual uninformed crewroom urban myths about FDM!
Now, the kind of thing FOQA may be set up to spot, is deliberately flying below manoeuvre speeds for
the current configuration...that should result in a quick Q&A with the boss!
LUPA's idea might be worth trying one day, with a well-briefed crew and (ideally) a low workload
situation (just so you are more able to monitor things properly!).
18th Mar 2006, 21:10
Eisenhower
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But when you are told to fly 180kts by ATC, for example, and S speed is 185kts, most punters will
happily fly high drag with flap 2.
Personally, I don't do it. The concept is poorly understood by A320 pilots. And seeing an aviator
turning blue, because you are a few knots below S speed, ain't worth the hassle!
Last edited by Gnadenburg : 26th Mar 2006 at 00:39.
19th Mar 2006, 08:23
Gary Lager
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Posts: 1,220
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary Lager
it falls outside most companies (and so I suspect also the manufacturer's) SOPs for airmanship reasons.
From the Airbus Instructors Support Manual- "You may fly below current maneuvring speed of the
configuration, provided speed is above VLS".
I would suggest this means flying below S speed is OK. But typical Airbus, have yet to, incredulously
considering the price of oil, incorporated this into FCOM.
At max landing weight, your flaps jam. S speed is 182kts. Vref is 134kts. Approach increment is 25kts.
Your Vapp is now 159kts. You can suffer an engine failure in this scenario and still have no restrictions
flying below S speed without Flap 2!
That Airbus pilots are uncomfortable flying a few knots below S speed, is testament of how much the
French are dumming down this profession.
Flying a level segment, with high drag Flap Two, burning an extra 20kg a minute, to meet an ATC
speed requirement is poor airmanship IMHO.
I am confident Airbus will incorporate the practice of flying below S speed without Flap 2, when the
price of oil makes 'green' approaches all the fuss. #21 (permalink)
Gary Lager
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: uk
Posts: 656
OK - I stand corrected; it's been a few years since I least flew one, but the requirement to use S spd as a
min with F1 only was then my company (large UK airbus operator) SOP.
20th Mar 2006, 15:01
Dream Land
PPRuNe supporter
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balance them with the protection the FMGC is trying to provide you.
As for the pic TURNING BLUE, who's in charge there. You'll get your turn some day, respect the
wishes of the guy or gal in the left seat(as well as the FMGC) and play it safe. Few knots isn't a big
thing here. It's the concept of what you are trying to accomplish here.,
22nd Mar 2006, 11:37
wheresthecoffee
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with the deck angle in that configuration I would bet it's cheaper to be at CON FIG 2 never mind the
comfort level for pax and crew.
23rd Mar 2006, 03:02
Gnadenburg
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Deliberately flying below manoeuvring speed is poor airmanship (even if VLS/ATHR is there as a back
up to look after you!).
You may be planning a straight course, speed reduction but sometimes you have to unexpectedly
manoeuvre..................................hence manoeuvre speed!
This is nothing to do with France or indeed the Airbus but is valid for every tye I have flown (more
than a few!).
25th Mar 2006, 01:09
Gnadenburg
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think that is Boeing terminology. I have not flown the Airbus family for four years now but that was
one of the big differences going for Airbus to Boeing. On the A320, perfectly acceptable to go below
the target speed with a minimum of VLS; on a Boeing, you want to go below manoeuvre speed, its the
next stage of flap (although even my Boeing manual says you have full manoevre capability at 20kt
below manoevre speed!)
Of course, all this may have changed since I left but I was always taught that VLS meant exactly that,
lowest selectable speed for that particular config.
If you can find anything in official Airbus documentation that says otherwise, I stand to be corrected.
25th Mar 2006, 23:10
wheresthecoffee
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reference to the approach scenario of ATC asking you to maintain speed a few knots below 'S'.
Last edited by Gnadenburg : 26th Mar 2006 at 04:50.
26th Mar 2006, 04:28
pakeha-boy
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Posts: 963
Gnad....I should have been more specific.......10-12 yrs ago we used the procedure.....Flaps 1 +f....used
at geen dot on long finals so as not to use Flaps 2 ,because of pitch attitude and drag.......the
procedure(for us) is not prohibited but not reccommended due to flap track wear.....
Impending overspeeds.as you suggested, requires you to reduce flap settings at any config that goes
into the "red"(auto thrust,auto pilot off,speed brakes,etc etc)......that is an action,not a procedure.
We used this as procedure,and to this day works very well.I would totaly agree with
wheresthecoffee,Airbus wants these A/C flown on profile,within the "laws" of the A/C for which it is
designed......only problem with that is ,as humans we tend to cock-up profiles and flying these things as
designed{guilty as charged) .....there are many safe and efficent ways of flying "outside of the
box" ....PB
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Watchdog
Join Date: May 2004
Location: The Sandpit
Posts: 285
wheresthecoffee...I know we are all really saying the same basic stuff here but the definitions of
manoeuvre speed and target speed are not the same as you say. The target is, just like aiming my gun, is
where I'd like my bullet to go. As gnads says - the bus, in managed, needs something to aim for and
provides a margin well above the minimum to as to provide for things like challenging atmospheric
conditions etc. So knowing this and dependent on the conditions at the time (as we are all talking about
here) we can use our knowledge to provide for a more efficient operation.
Airbus doesn't pay for your fuel.
27th Mar 2006, 08:28
Right Way Up
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737 speeds are mainly to keep it from turning you upside down if the rudder misbehaves.
28th Mar 2006, 00:42
Gnadenburg
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