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White Wolf New World of Darkness Mage: The Awakening Gifted and Psychics sheets brainstorming
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Gifted and Psychics sheets brainstorming

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WyrdHamster

Tuesday, August 17, 2010 7:11:21 PM(UTC )

#1

I wrote today to Mr. Gone and he agree to help in remaking the Mage sheets in to those for Gifted and Psychics in his time, only we must state what changes we want. So here is topic for brainstorming. Let's start with Gifted, because most of changes is stated in MCG.

Gifted sheet: 1. Arcana -> C olleges: * Death -> Morbid Studies * Fate -> Process Predictability. * Forces -> Energy Evolution * Life -> Biological Manipulation * Matter -> Elemental C hemistry * Mind -> Advanced Psychology * Prime -> Elemental Particles * Space -> Spatial Awareness * Spirit -> Parallel Reality * Time -> Temporal Dynamics

Maybe good idea would leaving the names or corresponding Arcanum in the brackets? Like Energy Evolution (Forces ) 0000 ?

2. Gnosis -> Insight

3. Mana -> Vision

4. Path / Order / Legacy - Gifted are Pathless and without large support, but we could leave those in place or make names for new kind of names like C ircles / Academies / XXX something like that.

5. Rotes -> Proven Theories

6. Dedicated Magical Tools -> Scientific Apparatus(es?) Each correspondence to one of C ollages, so maybe getting read of the Arcana Based Tools: section for two extra lines of text?

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7. Nimbus Nimbus don't have ideas for redefinition, but maybe new name should be made?

Psychics sheet: 1. Arcana - Principles Need new names for categories? Or just leave Life, Mind etc? 2. Gnosis Psyche 3. Mana - Psychic Energy. 4. Wisdom Self-C ontrol

Any other ideas on sheets?

Mr Gone

Wednesday, August 18, 2010 6:08:12 PM(UTC )

#2

So, from what I gather, they are just Mages with different names? Or let me re-phrase that, the sheets are exactly the same, with just different titles?

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WyrdHamster

Wednesday, August 18, 2010 6:22:38 PM(UTC ) Yeah, mostly. C hanges are only in names and slight overthrowing of some things. Nothing major.

#3

Mr Gone

Wednesday, August 18, 2010 7:12:14 PM(UTC ) Thats good.

#4

Well, once things get hammered out, compile it all and email it my way and I'll add it to the list.

I'll keep an eye here too. [

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WyrdHamster

Saturday, August 21, 2010 8:05:42 PM(UTC )

#5

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No one is interested in sheets for alternate willworkers from Mage Chronicle's Guide?

Dataweaver

Wednesday, August 25, 2010 6:51:23 PM(UTC )

#6

On the contrary; I posted my request for such sheets in the original MCG topic, including a summary of what changes would need to be made. I've been waiting for some action on it ever since.

Note that Psychics either have Wisdom (as with any Mage or Gifted Scientist) or Sanity (if you're using the optional "psychic powers destabilize your mind" rule), and in general don't nail down an alternate terminology with the same precision that the Gifted Scientists do.

Here is Wisdom: C larity before Harmony. The necessary conditions for a productive discussion: Candor: Say what you mean, and mean what you say. Intelligence: Think before you speak. Good Will: Assume the best interpretation of what you read.

WyrdHamster

Wednesday, August 25, 2010 7:16:57 PM(UTC )

#7

"Dataweaver" wrote: I posted my request for such sheets in the original MCG topic, including a summary of what changes would need to be made. I've been waiting for some action on it ever since.

So maybe repost this ideas here, MCG topic is, well... a bit of mess now. And we could made two of us some brainstorming. ;]

Mr Gone

Friday, September 03, 2010 8:13:08 PM(UTC )

#8

"Dataweaver" wrote: On the contrary; I posted my request for such sheets in the original MCG topic, including a summary of what changes would need to be made. I've been waiting for some action on it ever since.

Yea, any chance you could repost it.

I'd go diggin for it...but I'm lazy sometimes. [:P]

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Mr Gone

Wednesday, November 03, 2010 9:22:26 AM(UTC ) I finally got the book, so I'll see about trying to start this soon...I hope.

#9

If I have questions, I'll be sure to ask em. [:P]

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Kracken

Thursday, November 04, 2010 5:11:03 PM(UTC )

#10

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I dont have this book and can't see the differance from a mage? are they calling spirits to cast through them? in which case you can do away with the Arcana section and increase the familiar to encoporate more sprits.

Mr Gone

Thursday, November 04, 2010 6:05:39 PM(UTC ) I haven't read it, so I'm not sure. It may be pretty much the same as a Mage, just different names for things and slightly different mechanics. Not sure...

#11

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Dataweaver

Thursday, November 04, 2010 6:30:05 PM(UTC ) Reposting relevant comments from the C hronicler's Guide general discussion and spoilers thread:

#12

Quote: The [Gifted Science] section goes point by point through the various concepts and terms in Mage, and re-frames them in terms of exotic science. Readers familiar with the oWoD's Guide to the Technocracy should be familiar with the approach. For the most part, Science works according to the same rules of Magic, save for a few minor adjustments here and there. Quote: The Psychic Sphere makes reference to the Wintergreen Process from Slashers as an example of one of three possible origins for psychics. It also highlights that psychics and mages do not share the same culture, and then goes into detail about what the psychic culture is like, using the tiered concept (cabals, cults, and conspiracies) to organize things. It then provides a series of system hacks: Do Nothing (which does more than nothing, sometimes), Limit Powers, No Paradox, Replace Paradox, Psychic Tools, Psychic Vampires, and Sanity Score.  I haven't looked at these options in detail, so I don't know how well they mix. There's also a sidebar on Converting Psychic Disciplines Into Arcana/Spells, and a sidebar on Recommended Redefinitions (of terms, mostly). Quote: Mr Gone: could we get a couple of new character sheets for the MC G? Both the Gifted Science and the Psychic Spheres sections in chapter two propose radically different terminology for stuff, some of which shows up on the character sheet. For instance, Gifted Scientists have Insight rather than Gnosis; they are fueled by Vision rather than Mana; they study Colleges instead of Arcana (Morbid Studies instead of Death; Process Predictability instead of Fate; Energy Evolution instead of Forces; Biological Manipulation instead of Life; Elemental Chemistry instead of Matter; Essential and Advanced Psychology instead of Mind; Elemental Particles instead of Prime; Spatial Awareness instead of Space; Parallel Reality instead of Spirit; and Temporal Dynamics instead of Time); and they lack Paths. OTOH, they still have Wisdom. Psychics don't have quite a clear set of substitutions; rather, there's a sidebar of suggested alternative terms: Quote: Arcana: These are the magical elements key to Awakened magic. C hange the term to something more baseline: Principles should work as a term, but if youre okay with a little cross-game confusion, Spheres or Disciplines are apropos to psychic powers (as in psychic spheres or psychic disciplines). Gnosis: Now called Psyche. Less about understanding Supernal reality and more about grasping ones own internal psychic potential. Note that this is the same power stat found in Geist: The Sin-Eaters, though it shares only the name, not the function. Mana: Mana, which has roots in South Pacific myth, is a little too religious and mystical. Some psychics rely on what they term Qi or chi, which is the internalized energy bandied about in C hinese esotericism, but again, thats a hair too mystical. Instead, go for the straightforward Psychic Energy. Resonance: Aura. Same idea, different term. Wisdom: The core idea remains the same the psychic has access to powers that he can abuse, and that can damage his internal ethical yardstick and saddle him with derangements. But wisdom sounds a little too lofty. Here, we go with a simpler, more direct term: Self-Control. In addition, there's an optional Morality substitute that would, of course, take the place of Self-C ontrol: Sanity. Not having Mirrors yet, I don't know how similar these rules are to the Sanity stat found there. Here is Wisdom: C larity before Harmony. The necessary conditions for a productive discussion: Candor: Say what you mean, and mean what you say. Intelligence: Think before you speak. Good Will: Assume the best interpretation of what you read. | Edit by user

Isator Levi

Thursday, November 04, 2010 6:35:24 PM(UTC )

#13

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"Kracken" wrote: I dont have this book and can't see the differance from a mage? are they calling spirits to cast through them? in which case you can do away with the Arcana section and increase the familiar to encoporate more sprits.

MC G is really just setting out alternate perspectives on how magic works.

The default system presents magic as the application of the True principles of reality to override the laws present in the Fallen reality, via symbolism that can express the Truth to Fallen minds.

Gifted Science imagines magic as a deep understanding of the physical properties of the universe, to the point where an individual can, with the correct tools and applications, achieve seemingly miraculous effects. Virtually identical to the default system in mechanics, although rotes and dedicated tools are emphasised.

Psychic Sphere envisions magic as a capability derived from superhuman mental capabilities. The idea being that the human mind can tap into something that allows reality to be manipulated. Presentation differs from the default in that mneumonics are suggested as how powers are harnessed, rather than symbolism. There are several options for certain, minor alterations to the mechanics.
Needs Help, the Destitute Lam ent, Com m unicative Soul of Anbhann, the Forlorn Burren, 12th Soul of Isator Levi, Clfaidh, the Drill That Pierces the Heavens, 8th Soul of Isator Levi Abcn, the Poet of Contem pt, Ex pressive Soul of Fiacha, the Grinning Patrician, 5th Soul of Isator Levi Aerten, the Red Right Hand, 3rd Soul of Isator Levi Dagda, the Crucible That Scours All Ignorance, 9th Soul of Isator Levi

Dataweaver

Thursday, November 04, 2010 7:24:07 PM(UTC ) Right. IMHO, the MCG material is a good start, but doesn't quite go far enough.

#14

For Gifted Science, I've ended up implementing a house rule to the effect that Gifted Scientists don't get to engage in Astral journeys as an inherent ability; it requires an Experiment from the C ollege of Essential and Advanced Psychology (i.e., a Mind Spell). OTOH, crafting an Imbued Item (for which they certainly have a more scientific-sounding name) is an inherent ability that's available to all Gifted Scientists, not just those with moderate expertise in the C ollege of Essential Particles (i.e., Prime). I'm also inclined to remove the inherent ability to heal damage by expending Vision (i.e., Mana), though I can still see some justification for letting them incur damage in order to garner Vision. As well, MCG says nothing about the social organization of Gifted Scientists, one way or the other. I suppose that one could say that they belong to organizations that are equivalent to the Orders in all but name; but that rubs me the wrong way. I'd much rather invent a new set of Orders that better reflect prominent Gifted Scientist mindsets. Trouble is, I'm not quite sure how to go about it. I've considered the Foundations from Genius; but while I like "Foundation" as alternative terminology for "Order", the individual Foundations that Genius describes strike me as being better fodder for the Gifted Science counterpart to Legacies: they aren't sweeping philosophies of science the way that the Orders are sweeping philosophies of magic. For Psychics, most of the bases were covered. The only flaw that I see is that the Psychic Principles differ from the Magical Arcana in name only, which makes it difficult to replicate traditional psychic archetypes. For instance, Space covers both bilocation and clairvoyance, two psychic powers which aren't joined at the hip the way that, say, mind reading and mind control tend to be. I'd like to see a set of Psychic Principles that still work according to the same rules that Magical Arcana do, but that partition the "spells" differently. For instance, you might have Biokinesis, C lairsentience, Electrokinesis, Psychokinesis, Quantakinesis, Teleportation, Telepathy, and Vitakinesis (the Aptitudes from Trinity). Here is Wisdom: C larity before Harmony. The necessary conditions for a productive discussion: Candor: Say what you mean, and mean what you say. Intelligence: Think before you speak. Good Will: Assume the best interpretation of what you read. | Edit by user

Isator Levi

Thursday, November 04, 2010 8:41:50 PM(UTC )

#15

"Dataweaver" wrote: As well, MCG says nothing about the social organization of Gifted Scientists, one way or the other. I suppose that one could say that they belong to organizations that are equivalent to the Orders in all but name; but that rubs me the wrong way. I'd much rather invent a new set of Orders that better reflect prominent Gifted Scientist mindsets. Trouble is, I'm not quite sure how to go about it. I've considered the Foundations from Genius; but while I like "Foundation" as alternative terminology for "Order", the individual Foundations that Genius describes strike me as being better fodder for the Gifted Science counterpart to Legacies: they aren't sweeping philosophies of science the way that the Orders are sweeping philosophies of magic.

Perhaps organizations based around differing philosophies for how to utilise their Advanced Science.

Like, say, one Foundation devoted to using its innovations to help mankind, one who feels that they should use their advances

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for their own profit, one who is devoted to actively improving humanity, who who is interested purely in research and providing funds and infrastructure to aid research, and one who is dedicated to regulating the others and ensuring that they adhere to certain ethical and professional standards.

And of course, enemy factions of elitist technocrats and standard mad scientists.
Needs Help, the Destitute Lam ent, Com m unicative Soul of Anbhann, the Forlorn Burren, 12th Soul of Isator Levi, Clfaidh, the Drill That Pierces the Heavens, 8th Soul of Isator Levi Abcn, the Poet of Contem pt, Ex pressive Soul of Fiacha, the Grinning Patrician, 5th Soul of Isator Levi Aerten, the Red Right Hand, 3rd Soul of Isator Levi Dagda, the Crucible That Scours All Ignorance, 9th Soul of Isator Levi

Dataweaver

Thursday, November 04, 2010 10:53:11 PM(UTC )

#16

That's a good start, and very much in line with what I was hoping for. They could use some fleshing out; for instance, the "do research and fund research" Foundation sounds like it could also be described as "those who seek answers" - which is not to say that nobody else asks questions and demands answers. But for the others, investigating things is a means to an end; for this Foundation, satisfying their curiosity is and end unto itself.

Of course, the other half is that every Order provides three Rote Specialties; unless Gifted Scientists in general have a means of acquiring Rote Specialties without the help of the Foundations, at least part of each one's flavor will be tied to which Rote Specialties it provides.

As well, maybe we shouldn't have a pair of "enemy factions"; instead, develop each faction with a light side and a dark side. The technocrats and the ethics police could be flip sides of the same Foundation, where the ethics police are those members who have the Wisdom to restrain themselves and leave the Scientific community to itself for the most part, while the technocrats are the ones who show no restraint nor humility, and seek power over others for their own good. Same concept, and same Foundation; but one side is the concept done right (more or less), while the other is the concept gone horribly wrong.

Here is Wisdom: C larity before Harmony. The necessary conditions for a productive discussion: Candor: Say what you mean, and mean what you say. Intelligence: Think before you speak. Good Will: Assume the best interpretation of what you read.

Isator Levi

Friday, November 05, 2010 10:38:43 AM(UTC )

#17

"Dataweaver" wrote: As well, maybe we shouldn't have a pair of "enemy factions"; instead, develop each faction with a light side and a dark side. The technocrats and the ethics police could be flip sides of the same Foundation, where the ethics police are those members who have the Wisdom to restrain themselves and leave the Scientific community to itself for the most part, while the technocrats are the ones who show no restraint nor humility, and seek power over others for their own good. Same concept, and same Foundation; but one side is the concept done right (more or less), while the other is the concept gone horribly wrong.

Really, you're right about the idea of distinct enemy factions.

However, I feel that technocrats should have their place.

Rather than being an enemy faction, or a sub-group of another faction, they should just be a distinct faction who happens to believe that technical expertise is the best qualification for running a society. It could be that there are the nicer ones who either feel that they should provide facts and statistics to incumbant officials or else believe that technical expertise and pragmatism are important but not the sole factors to govern decisions, and the less pleasant ones who believe that Gifted Scientists should be the new oligarchy, or who believe that decisions should be purely pragmatic and technical (the group who projects that the economy could be lifted up if 100,000 people were murdered, or that the best way to reduce carbon emissions is by wiping out private transport).

And mad scientist should be there. Perhaps in the form of people who use extremely non-standard theories, paradigms or equipment. They could be dotted throughout the other groups, but have their own seperate (and smaller) faction who are devoted to increasing the prevalence in accepting more radical methods.

Other groups could have the harsher elements in the form of: * Forcing the use of new advances whether the people want them or not, disregarding the ultimate waste caused by fast advances which swiftly render old technologies obsolete and discarded, and use harsh methods to drive those who refuse to advance into the ground. *Selling any old thing for maximum profits, regardless of how damaging or shoddy it might prove to be in the long run. *Improvement of humanity being researched in highly unethical and involuntary experimentation.

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*Plain old academic elitism and being extremely ruthless in the appropraition of grants, scholarships and peer reviews. *Holding others to extremely draconian standards via severe methods, and being particularly harsh in the area of things like patent protection.

Needs Help, the Destitute Lam ent, Com m unicative Soul of Anbhann, the Forlorn Burren, 12th Soul of Isator Levi, Clfaidh, the Drill That Pierces the Heavens, 8th Soul of Isator Levi Abcn, the Poet of Contem pt, Ex pressive Soul of Fiacha, the Grinning Patrician, 5th Soul of Isator Levi Aerten, the Red Right Hand, 3rd Soul of Isator Levi Dagda, the Crucible That Scours All Ignorance, 9th Soul of Isator Levi

Dataweaver

Sunday, November 07, 2010 1:28:20 AM(UTC )

#18

I was figuring that the "ethics police" concept works well as the "bright side" of the technocrat mindset, and vice versa: a "good technocrat" would be one who applies restraint to his tendency to meddle in others' affairs; and to me, a significant measure of said restraint would be a tendency to focus on the behavior of those who can do the most harm if they misbehave - which, from a technocrat's perspective, would be other Gifted Scientists in general, and other technocrats in particular. Or, taking it the other way around: an "ethics policeman" is concerned with watching out for ethical violations by other Scientists. The dark side of this would replace "policing" with "micromanaging", and would generalize the scope of their monitoring and enforcement from Gifted Scientists to everyone. Now you've got people who want to control your life "for your own good, because we know what's good for you."

And I was also figuring that the traditional mad scientist is the guy who is driven to invent no matter what the cost, making him the dark side of the "research for its own sake" Foundation.

Here is Wisdom: C larity before Harmony. The necessary conditions for a productive discussion: Candor: Say what you mean, and mean what you say. Intelligence: Think before you speak. Good Will: Assume the best interpretation of what you read.

Isator Levi

Sunday, November 07, 2010 6:06:50 AM(UTC ) "Dataweaver" wrote: Now you've got people who want to control your life "for your own good, because we know what's good for you."

#19

That is pretty much the definition of technocracy.


Needs Help, the Destitute Lam ent, Com m unicative Soul of Anbhann, the Forlorn Burren, 12th Soul of Isator Levi, Clfaidh, the Drill That Pierces the Heavens, 8th Soul of Isator Levi Abcn, the Poet of Contem pt, Ex pressive Soul of Fiacha, the Grinning Patrician, 5th Soul of Isator Levi Aerten, the Red Right Hand, 3rd Soul of Isator Levi Dagda, the Crucible That Scours All Ignorance, 9th Soul of Isator Levi

Dataweaver

Sunday, November 07, 2010 7:05:56 AM(UTC )

#20

OTOH, an equally viable route to very nearly the same end is to start with the philanthropists - who, after all, only want to help you - and then give them the scientific certainty that they know what's best for you, and will provide it whether you want it or not. The difference between the two is one of emphasis: for the ethics police, it's "we seek to control you, for your own good"; for the philanthropists, it's "we seek to control you, for your own good".

Likewise, the "pure research" and transhumanist Foundations would both result in mad scientists: the former being "I will stop at nothing to satisfy my curiosity", the latter having a warped view of what constitutes an improvement to humanity.

And then there are the "science for profit" guys, for whom the dark side is self-evident; it's all too easy for us to imagine people compromising their morals for the sake of the bottom line. So easy that I'd wager that the real trick would lie in showing how these guys can be viable protagonists. The key there would be to play up the notion of enlightened self-interest: to borrow a line from Shere Khan in Tale Spin, "I care only for money and power; underpaid and abused employees provide me with neither." Or something to that effect. Likewise, cheating a customer can be profitable in the short run; but in the long run, you want satisfied customers who will provide you with repeat business.

Here is Wisdom: C larity before Harmony. The necessary conditions for a productive discussion: Candor: Say what you mean, and mean what you say. Intelligence: Think before you speak. Good Will: Assume the best interpretation of what you read.

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WyrdHamster

Monday, November 08, 2010 1:50:07 PM(UTC ) Maybe it will delude a bit topic, but I will sum up the Fundations ideas that are more or less based on the Orders: *Misterium - "seeking knowlegde Fundation" - meddling in bad things just because of curiosity *Free C ouncil - "Future is today! - transhumanism Fundation" - wanting to elevate th human kind- NOW! *Guardians of the Veil - "Proper development of humanity Fundation" - technocrats *Silver Ladder - "Reaserch for power Fundation" - you are genius, you own what you got *Addamantine Arrow -"Philantrospist Fundation"?

#21

The problem I've come up with is also the story line. Would Fundation be as long as Renaissance? Or are they XIX century offshoot? And what would be they reaction to forming of Free C ouncil in 1900? Because many Libertines are exactly like the Gifted themselves...

Dataweaver

Monday, November 08, 2010 11:35:25 PM(UTC ) We've definitely drifted off-topic, for which I'll accept full responsibility. That said:

#22

These proposed Foundations do not match up with individual Orders; that's part of the point of them. There are some similarities in a few cases; but then, there are also some similarities between a few of the vampiric C ovenants and a few of the Orders. And they're about as meaningful.

One of the ideas that I'm suggesting here is that for the most part, Gifted Scientists aren't part of Mage culture, and vice versa. Arguably, they're more closely related than, say, vampires and mages are; but they should still be thought of as distinct communities with separate concerns rather than being evaluated in terms of how they fit into mage history. My personal preference would be to trace the origins of the Foundations at least as far back as the Enlightenment; but seeing as how they're essentially philosophies and goals of science at least as much as they are organizations, I could easily see them extending all the way back into ancient times, with no clear origins.

Here is Wisdom: C larity before Harmony. The necessary conditions for a productive discussion: Candor: Say what you mean, and mean what you say. Intelligence: Think before you speak. Good Will: Assume the best interpretation of what you read.

WyrdHamster

Tuesday, November 09, 2010 1:07:17 AM(UTC )

#23

"Dataweaver" wrote: My personal preference would be to trace the origins of the Foundations at least as far back as the Enlightenment; but seeing as how they're essentially philosophies and goals of science at least as much as they are organizations, I could easily see them extending all the way back into ancient times, with no clear origins. If we would want to make them distinct than Mages, and left the illusion of the scientific progress for the characters, I think we should make Fundation in the Renaissance, with shadowing that before there were other, smaller groups. Before the 15th C entury science was so much divided that I can't imagine unfieded groups. Also, Inquisition is good excuse WHY those groups are now the way they are, with all the scienisists being partially philospers and beginning of globalisation. ( See Assassin C reed 2 for this . ;] ) Just couple weeks ago I stareted the Promethean game as player and I must say one thing - antagonists are needed. You can play game and enjoy it ( I love it! ) but the dynamics is to slow paced, even with C entimani, that as Storyteller - I don't have good ideas to throw a chronicle, especialy in team play. I could see the whole "all can be enemy", but basicly it's the same in Mage. Maybe if they REALLY all of them could be enemies... And, even if Gifted are not Mages, as I see, they are at least partially affected to them, especially Free C ouncil and Great Refusal. I see that if only one Gifted is found in city, he would more probably joined FC than started the Fundation ( by parraels I showed, other Orders are also visable ). I know that Gifted should be self suffitiant as "game", but I also advice on the whole "Supernal in both kinds" thing, that ties them nicely, and this should also be taken in to consideration. I make this points also becuase I think about steampunk Magevers game, were character can be Awakened, Gifted or Psychics - the making of Free C ouncil itself.

Dataweaver

Tuesday, November 09, 2010 2:57:14 AM(UTC )

#24

"WyrdHamster" wrote: If we would want to make them distinct than Mages, and left the illusion of the scientific progress for the characters, I think we should make Fundation in the Renaissance, with shadowing that before there were other, smaller groups. Before the 15th C entury science was so much divided that I can't imagine unfieded groups. Also, Inquisition is good excuse WHY those groups are now the way they are, with all the scienisists being partially philospers and beginning of globalisation. ( See Assassin C reed 2 for this . ;] ) Like I said: Foundations are like Orders in that they aren't really big organizations; they're loose networks of like-minded scientists. That said, I'm OK with the notion that the Foundations probably don't date much farther back than the Renaissance.

"WyrdHamster" wrote: Just couple weeks ago I stareted the Promethean game as player and I must say one thing - antagonists are needed. You can play game and enjoy it ( I love it! ) but the dynamics is to slow paced, even with C entimani, that as Storyteller - I don't have good ideas to throw a chronicle, especialy in team play. I could see the whole "all can be enemy", but basicly it's the same in Mage. Maybe if they REALLY all of them could be enemies...
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The latter is what I'm thinking of. Think of it as factions within the Foundation, or perhaps as a second set of "evil" Foundations that mirror the "good" ones.

"WyrdHamster" wrote: And, even if Gifted are not Mages, as I see, they are at least partially affected to them, especially Free C ouncil and Great Refusal. I see that if only one Gifted is found in city, he would more probably joined FC than started the Fundation ( by parraels I showed, other Orders are also visable ). I know that Gifted should be self suffitiant as "game", but I also advice on the whole "Supernal in both kinds" thing, that ties them nicely, and this should also be taken in to consideration. As I see it, the Free C ouncil wouldn't have anything to offer a Gifted Scientist beyond what it could offer to a Sleepwalker. If a Gifted Scientist is not a Mage, he won't benefit from the libraries of Rotes that largely defines the non-mundane benefits that an Order has to offer. He'll need access to the databases of Proven Theories that a Foundation would offer, or else he's no better off than an apostate mage who tries to join a Foundation.

As for the Great Refusal, I'm pretty sure that Gifted Scientists probably weren't involved in it: not being mages, and having their own Foundations, they wouldn't have been part of the preceding Nameless War, certainly not as part of the minority being persecuted by the Atlantean Orders; and without that, there would have been no rationale for the Seers to use to try to recruit them. Besides, they would have been singularly dismissive of any such offers: to them, a Seer is a guy who thinks that the world is a prison, that he's a prison guard, and that the wardens are beings who live outside of reality, in a "more real" super-reality. For most Gifted Scientists, these notions are laughable.

To a typical Gifted Scientist, there isn't a "Supernal World", with laws that can be drawn down into the Fallen World. Instead, there is "Supernal Thought" - the talent for understanding subtleties in the laws of reality and spotting and exploiting loopholes in those laws. Gifted Scientists don't talk about Watchtowers, as they never experienced any during their Enlightenment; nor do they have any concept of such things as Arcadia, Pandemonium, et al. The Supernal Realms and their Watchtowers are unique to mages. And without a Supernal World, the Gifted would be hard-pressed to buy into the notion of the Exarchs, which in turn would make it hard for them to take the Seers of the Throne seriously.

"WyrdHamster" wrote: I make this points also becuase I think about steampunk Magevers game, were character can be Awakened, Gifted or Psychics - the making of Free C ouncil itself. IMHO, far too much is made of the techno leanings of the Free C ouncil. What gets missed is that Libertines are still mystics; and having the Free C ouncil double as a Foundation for Gifted Scientists would tend to reinforce this misconception. Still, I could see the possibility of a Foundation that is to mysticism and the "old ways" as the Free C ouncil is to modern innovations a Foundation dedicated to discovering the scientific roots of ancient superstitions.

Here is Wisdom: C larity before Harmony. The necessary conditions for a productive discussion: Candor: Say what you mean, and mean what you say. Intelligence: Think before you speak. Good Will: Assume the best interpretation of what you read.

Mr Gone

Wednesday, February 23, 2011 12:03:10 AM(UTC ) So, did we ever come up with anything concrete for this? I'd love it if someone could get me a mock-up, or let me what exactly is needed for something like this. Maybe it's all here and I've missed it. Been awhile since I read over the thread..

#25

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Dataweaver

Thursday, February 24, 2011 1:34:39 AM(UTC ) Mr Gone wrote: So, did we ever come up with anything concrete for this? I'd love it if someone could get me a mock-up, or let me what exactly is needed for something like this. Maybe it's all here and I've missed it. Been awhile since I read over the thread..

#26

In terms of the character sheets? For the Gifted, it's really simple: aside from artistic changes such as replacing the Mage-ish borders/font with something more sciencey, it's largely a matter of renaming various fields: * Replace "Arcana" with "C olleges". * Replace Death, Fate, Forces, Life, Matter, Mind, Prime, Space, Spirit, and Time with Biological Manipulation, Elementary C hemistry, Elemental Particles, Energy Evolution, Essential and Advanced Psychology, Morbid Studies, Parallel Reality, Process Predictability, Spatial Awareness, and Temporal Dynamics. (IMHO, some of these can be abbreviated without harm - e.g., Psychology instead of Essential and Advanced Psychology, Biology instead of Biological Manipulation, etc. - but these are the terms provided in the book.) * Replace "Gnosis" with "Insight".

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* Replace "Mana" with "Vision". * Remove "Path". Do not rename or replace; remove. * Replace all mention of "Spells" with "Experiments" (so "Protective Spells" become "Protective Experiments", "Active Spells" become "Active Experiments", "Spells C ast Upon Self" become "Experiments Performed Upon Self", etc. * Replace "Rotes" with "Proven Theories" * Remove the "Dedicated Magical Tool" section, and replace it with a "Tool" column next to the list of C olleges: a Gifted Scientist gets one preferred Tool per C ollege. If possible, also make space for a check box next to this to allow the player to tag various tools as having been C alibrated (the Gifted Science analog of Dedicating a Tool). * "Enchanted Items" needs to be renamed, although the book doesn't address this. C all them "Gadgets" or "Inventions" instead? Likewise, "Familiars" has to many mystical overtones for the Gifted Scientist, though I'm less sure with what to call them: "Pets", I suppose; or is that just my MMO side talking? Regardless, Pets/Familiars could probably be dropped entirely without harm. House rules may involve replacing "Order" with something else; but for a sheet that's designed to conform strictly to the material presented in Chronicler's Guide, you should leave "Order" as "Order". --For Psychics, the following are the primary recommendations: * Replace "Order" with a Hunter-style tiered organization entry: tier 1 is the cabal, as per mages; tiers 2 and 3 are cults and conspiracies, respectively. * Replace "Arcana" with "Principles" (the book also suggests that "Spheres" or "Disciplines" might work if the Storyteller isn't worried about cross-game confusion; but "Principles" is the dominant suggestion, if you want to avoid drop-down boxes or text fields). * Replace "Gnosis" with "Psyche". * Replace "Mana" with "Psychic Energy". * Replace "Wisdom" with a choice of either "Self-C ontrol" or "Sanity", depending on whether or not the Storyteller is implementing the Sanity option described on p.72. Other terms undoubtedly need renaming; but this is about as far as the book's suggestions go. Here is Wisdom: C larity before Harmony. The necessary conditions for a productive discussion: Candor: Say what you mean, and mean what you say. Intelligence: Think before you speak. Good Will: Assume the best interpretation of what you read.

Mr Gone

Thursday, February 24, 2011 5:23:15 PM(UTC )

#27

Dataweaver wrote: In terms of the character sheets? For the Gifted, it's really simple: aside from artistic changes such as replacing the Mage-ish borders/font with something more sciencey

Thats gonna be my biggest hang up then...as I can't really make my own borders. I'm real good with using existing graphics...not so good at making up my own. So, if thing needs a new border...unless someone can make me one, then I'll have to put it on hold for awhile longer. Dataweaver wrote: it's largely a matter of renaming various fields: * Replace "Arcana" with "C olleges". * Replace Death, Fate, Forces, Life, Matter, Mind, Prime, Space, Spirit, and Time with Biological Manipulation, Elementary C hemistry, Elemental Particles, Energy Evolution, Essential and Advanced Psychology, Morbid Studies, Parallel Reality, Process Predictability, Spatial Awareness, and Temporal Dynamics. (IMHO, some of these can be abbreviated without harm - e.g., Psychology instead of Essential and Advanced Psychology, Biology instead of Biological Manipulation, etc. - but these are the terms provided in the book.) * Replace "Gnosis" with "Insight". * Replace "Mana" with "Vision". * Remove "Path". Do not rename or replace; remove. * Replace all mention of "Spells" with "Experiments" (so "Protective Spells" become "Protective Experiments", "Active Spells" become "Active Experiments", "Spells C ast Upon Self" become "Experiments Performed Upon Self", etc. * Replace "Rotes" with "Proven Theories" * Remove the "Dedicated Magical Tool" section, and replace it with a "Tool" column next to the list of C olleges: a Gifted Scientist gets one preferred Tool per C ollege. If possible, also make space for a check box next to this to allow the player to tag various tools as having been C alibrated (the Gifted Science analog of Dedicating a Tool). * "Enchanted Items" needs to be renamed, although the book doesn't address this. C all them "Gadgets" or "Inventions" instead? Likewise, "Familiars" has to many mystical overtones for the Gifted Scientist, though I'm less sure with what to call them: "Pets", I suppose; or is that just my MMO side talking? Regardless, Pets/Familiars could probably be dropped entirely without harm. House rules may involve replacing "Order" with something else; but for a sheet that's designed to conform strictly to the material presented in Chronicler's Guide, you should leave "Order" as "Order". --For Psychics, the following are the primary recommendations: * Replace "Order" with a Hunter-style tiered organization entry: tier 1 is the cabal, as per mages; tiers 2 and 3 are cults and conspiracies, respectively. * Replace "Arcana" with "Principles" (the book also suggests that "Spheres" or "Disciplines" might work if the Storyteller isn't worried about cross-game confusion; but "Principles" is the dominant suggestion, if you want to avoid drop-down boxes or text fields). * Replace "Gnosis" with "Psyche". * Replace "Mana" with "Psychic Energy". * Replace "Wisdom" with a choice of either "Self-C ontrol" or "Sanity", depending on whether or not the Storyteller is implementing the Sanity option described on p.72. Other terms undoubtedly need renaming; but this is about as far as the book's suggestions go.

Thanks for suming up those changes. Again, I'll be stuck on the border front...but we'll see what happens.

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Sp Psychics are more human then? No magey stuff for the sheet?

Any chance you could email me those changes? Just so I have them saved some place so I don't forget... My email is: mrgonejediknight@aol.com

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Mr Gone

Tuesday, September 13, 2011 7:04:25 PM(UTC ) *bump* Anything else I should know. If I can, I'll try to see what I can do with these before too long...

#28

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Dataweaver

Tuesday, September 13, 2011 9:26:46 PM(UTC ) Mr Gone wrote: Thanks for summing up those changes. Again, I'll be stuck on the border front...but we'll see what happens. So Psychics are more human then? No magey stuff for the sheet? For the Gifted Science border, you could do worse than to borrow the border graphics from the oWoD Guide to the Technocracy.

#29

The Psychics section is a lot more freewheeling than the Gifted Science section, and is much more of a grab-bag of ideas than any sort of coherent system, as you can probably tell by my summary of their respective terminology changes. As such, coming up with a single, coherent character sheet for the psychics is going to involve a bit more guesswork. For instance: presumably, psychics don't talk about "casting spells" or rotes, even though they use a somewhat tweaked version of Mage's spellcasting system; but the section doesn't really address this point, and doesn't provide alternative terminology. Here is Wisdom: C larity before Harmony. The necessary conditions for a productive discussion: Candor: Say what you mean, and mean what you say. Intelligence: Think before you speak. Good Will: Assume the best interpretation of what you read.

Mr Gone

Tuesday, September 13, 2011 10:31:51 PM(UTC ) I got the sheets done, for now. Heres the announcement:

#30

Hey all!! I have some new sheets up on the site! I was asked awhile ago to make sheets for Gifted and Psychics from the Mage C hroniclers Guide. I don't have the book myself, so I relied on info some people were nice enough to post on the white wolf forum. These have been a long time coming, and I'm sorry it's taken me so long to get to them. I hope these will be good enough for you guys. Heres the links: http://mrgone.rocksolidshells.com/pdf/MtANWOD/Awakening2-Page_Gifted_Editable.pdf http://mrgone.rocksolidshells.com/pdf/MtANWOD/Awakening1-Page_Psychics_Editable.pdf Hope you like how they turned out.

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Mr Gone

Tuesday, September 13, 2011 10:34:53 PM(UTC )

#31

Dataweaver wrote: For the Gifted Science border, you could do worse than to borrow the border graphics from the oWoD Guide to the Technocracy.

I hadn't thought about that. Might do it sometime...

Dataweaver wrote: The Psychics section is a lot more freewheeling than the Gifted Science section, and is much more of a grab-bag of ideas than any sort of coherent system, as you can probably tell by my summary of their respective terminology changes. As such, coming up with a single, coherent character sheet for the psychics is going to involve a bit more guesswork. For instance: presumably, psychics don't talk about "casting spells" or rotes, even though they use a somewhat tweaked version of Mage's spellcasting system; but the section doesn't really address this point, and doesn't provide alternative terminology.

Hopefully the sheet I did will be ok. I just did a one page sheet...

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Dataweaver

Tuesday, September 13, 2011 10:54:33 PM(UTC ) Mr Gone wrote:

#32

Dataweaver wrote: For the Gifted Science border, you could do worse than to borrow the border graphics from the oWoD Guide to the Technocracy.

I hadn't thought about that. Might do it sometime...

Yes, please. In the meantime, the Gifted sheet you provided looks quite good. For the Psychic sheet, you might consider asking Evo_Shandor if you could borrow the border image that he devised for his Psychic: the Gifted homebrew. Mr Gone wrote: Dataweaver wrote: The Psychics section is a lot more freewheeling than the Gifted Science section, and is much more of a grabbag of ideas than any sort of coherent system, as you can probably tell by my summary of their respective terminology changes. As such, coming up with a single, coherent character sheet for the psychics is going to involve a bit more guesswork. For instance: presumably, psychics don't talk about "casting spells" or rotes, even though they use a somewhat tweaked version of Mage's spellcasting system; but the section doesn't really address this point, and doesn't provide alternative terminology.

Hopefully the sheet I did will be ok. I just did a one page sheet... No complaints here. I do wish that the Morality Substitute title box had a default value of "Self-C ontrol" in it, so that the player would only need to edit that box if the Storyteller has decided to implement the Sanity option (and its font seems to be slightly bigger than the other headers); but other than that, it looks great! Here is Wisdom: C larity before Harmony. The necessary conditions for a productive discussion: Candor: Say what you mean, and mean what you say. Intelligence: Think before you speak. Good Will: Assume the best interpretation of what you read.

Dataweaver

Tuesday, September 13, 2011 11:25:44 PM(UTC ) A few nitpicks on the Gifted character sheet: there are still a couple of Mage fossils there. 1. In the fine print at the bottom of the first page, you state that "(two of these must be the Paths Ruling C ollege)"; The Gifted don't have Paths. Delete this. 2. Under Experiments Performed Upon Self, you have "Spell Tolerance = Stamina; -1 dice per extra spell." C hange to "Experiment Tolerance = Stamina; -1 die per extra experiment."

#33

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3. Under Inventions, the fourth column is "Mana". C hange that to "Vision" for consistency. (I have the same problem with this as I do with Innovations in Adventure being fueled by "Inspiration"; but it definitely should not be "Mana", and "Vision" at least is consistent with the rest of the sheet.) 4. "Arcane Experience". I can't believe that I missed this one; it breaks thematics. MCG doesn't address this (which is part of why I overlooked it), so there's no "official" alternative to go with. Perhaps go with "Esoteric Experience" (for clarity) or "Inspiration" (for brevity)? I'm leaning toward the former. I had been thinking that without Paths, there's no need to mention different experience costs for Ruling, C ommon, and Inferior C olleges; but since MCG doesn't address the details of how Gifted character creation differs from Mage character creation, it's entirely possible that a given Storyteller might decide to implement some alternate method for establishing Ruling and/or Inferior C olleges; so leave them as is. Here is Wisdom: C larity before Harmony. The necessary conditions for a productive discussion: Candor: Say what you mean, and mean what you say. Intelligence: Think before you speak. Good Will: Assume the best interpretation of what you read. | Edit by user

Mr Gone

Tuesday, September 13, 2011 11:55:03 PM(UTC ) Dataweaver wrote: A few nitpicks on the Gifted character sheet: there are still a couple of Mage fossils there.

#34

1. In the fine print at the bottom of the first page, you state that "(two of these must be the Paths Ruling C ollege)"; The Gifted don't have Paths. Delete this. 2. Under Experiments Performed Upon Self, you have "Spell Tolerance = Stamina; -1 dice per extra spell." C hange to "Experiment Tolerance = Stamina; -1 die per extra experiment." 3. Under Inventions, the fourth column is "Mana". C hange that to "Vision" for consistency. (I have the same problem with this as I do with Innovations in Adventure being fueled by "Inspiration"; but it definitely should not be "Mana", and "Vision" at least is consistent with the rest of the sheet.) 4. "Arcane Experience". I can't believe that I missed this one; it breaks thematics. MCG doesn't address this (which is part of why I overlooked it), so there's no "official" alternative to go with. Perhaps go with "Esoteric Experience" (for clarity) or "Inspiration" (for brevity)? I'm leaning toward the former. I had been thinking that without Paths, there's no need to mention different experience costs for Ruling, C ommon, and Inferior C olleges; but since MCG doesn't address the details of how Gifted character creation differs from Mage character creation, it's entirely possible that a given Storyteller might decide to implement some alternate method for establishing Ruling and/or Inferior C olleges; so leave them as is.

Man, I just having a hell of a day when it comes to sheets... Anyway, I made all those corrections. Thanks for catching those. I have the sheet updated(same link as above). Thanks for the help with this, I really appreciate it. And I'll see what I can't do about changing the border sometime. So you think the old 2nd ed Mage border(I think thats the Technocracy one) would be good to use?

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Dataweaver

Wednesday, September 14, 2011 12:07:11 AM(UTC ) Mr Gone wrote: Man, I just having a hell of a day when it comes to sheets... Anyway, I made all those corrections. Thanks for catching those. I have the sheet updated(same link as above). It still says "-1 dice per extra spell" under Experiments Performed Upon Self. Sorry.

#35

Mr Gone wrote: Thanks for the help with this, I really appreciate it. And I'll see what I can't do about changing the border sometime. So you think the old 2nd ed Mage border(I think thats the Technocracy one) would be good to use? Guide to the Technocracy had its own border, one that had a bit more of a "techno" feel to it. I'll see about getting an image of it for you. Here is Wisdom: C larity before Harmony. The necessary conditions for a productive discussion: Candor: Say what you mean, and mean what you say. Intelligence: Think before you speak. Good Will: Assume the best interpretation of what you read.

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Mr Gone

Wednesday, September 14, 2011 12:14:13 AM(UTC ) Dataweaver wrote: Mr Gone wrote: Man, I just having a hell of a day when it comes to sheets... Anyway, I made all those corrections. Thanks for catching those. I have the sheet updated(same link as above). It still says "-1 dice per extra spell" under Experiments Performed Upon Self. Sorry.

#36

C rap. Sorry about that. Fixed again. :P Dataweaver wrote: Mr Gone wrote: Thanks for the help with this, I really appreciate it. And I'll see what I can't do about changing the border sometime. So you think the old 2nd ed Mage border(I think thats the Technocracy one) would be good to use? Guide to the Technocracy had its own border, one that had a bit more of a "techno" feel to it. I'll see about getting an image of it for you.

This one: http://mrgone.rocksolidshells.com/pdf/MtA/Mage2ndEdTechnocracy4-PageSheet_Editable.pdf ?

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Dataweaver

Wednesday, September 14, 2011 12:27:50 AM(UTC ) Mr Gone wrote: Dataweaver wrote: It still says "-1 dice per extra spell" under Experiments Performed Upon Self. Sorry.

#37

C rap. Sorry about that. Fixed again. :P Looks good now. Mr Gone wrote: Dataweaver wrote: Guide to the Technocracy had its own border, one that had a bit more of a "techno" feel to it. I'll see about getting an image of it for you.

This one: http://mrgone.rocksolidshells.com/pdf/MtA/Mage2ndEdTechnocracy4-PageSheet_Editable.pdf ? That's the one - though if you could find a version that doesn't have the Technocracy symbol in the upper corners, so much the better. And if you could snag that title font as well, that would be great. Here is Wisdom: C larity before Harmony. The necessary conditions for a productive discussion: Candor: Say what you mean, and mean what you say. Intelligence: Think before you speak. Good Will: Assume the best interpretation of what you read. | Edit by user

Mr Gone

Wednesday, September 14, 2011 12:35:33 AM(UTC )

#38

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Dataweaver wrote: Mr Gone wrote: Dataweaver wrote: It still says "-1 dice per extra spell" under Experiments Performed Upon Self. Sorry.

C rap. Sorry about that. Fixed again. :P Looks good now.

C oolness!

Dataweaver wrote: Mr Gone wrote: Dataweaver wrote: Guide to the Technocracy had its own border, one that had a bit more of a "techno" feel to it. I'll see about getting an image of it for you.

This one: http://mrgone.rocksolidshells.com/pdf/MtA/Mage2ndEdTechnocracy4-PageSheet_Editable.pdf ? That's the one - though if you could find a version that doesn't have the Technocracy symbol in the upper corners, so much the better. And if you could snag that title font as well, that would be great.

Yup...I made that sheet, so I can take the symbols off.

I also added that logo, so I can use it.

You like that font for the sheet then? I'll see what I can do about making a new Gifted sheet using that stuff then...hopefully soonish...

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Dataweaver

Wednesday, September 14, 2011 12:48:13 AM(UTC ) Mr Gone wrote: You like that font for the sheet then? I'll see what I can do about making a new Gifted sheet using that stuff then...hopefully soonish...

#39

The title font (i.e., "Technocracy" at the top of the page) would work well for "Gifted". But the font for the rest of the page should be the "Mage: the Awakening" font rather than the "Mage: the Ascension" font. Here is Wisdom: C larity before Harmony. The necessary conditions for a productive discussion: Candor: Say what you mean, and mean what you say. Intelligence: Think before you speak. Good Will: Assume the best interpretation of what you read.

Mr Gone

Wednesday, September 14, 2011 12:50:55 AM(UTC ) Dataweaver wrote: Mr Gone wrote: You like that font for the sheet then? I'll see what I can do about making a new Gifted sheet using that stuff then...hopefully soonish...

#40

The title font (i.e., "Technocracy" at the top of the page) would work well for "Gifted". But the font for the rest of the page should be the "Mage: the Awakening" font rather than the "Mage: the Ascension" font.

Think so? C ould I use that title font throughout....


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Think so? C ould I use that title font throughout.... But, if you think the awakening font would be best for the headers and such, I'll use it.

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Wednesday, September 14, 2011 1:06:53 AM(UTC ) Mr Gone wrote: Dataweaver wrote: Mr Gone wrote: You like that font for the sheet then? I'll see what I can do about making a new Gifted sheet using that stuff then...hopefully soonish...

#41

The title font (i.e., "Technocracy" at the top of the page) would work well for "Gifted". But the font for the rest of the page should be the "Mage: the Awakening" font rather than the "Mage: the Ascension" font.

Think so? C ould I use that title font throughout.... But, if you think the awakening font would be best for the headers and such, I'll use it. I had been thinking of keeping the Awakening font for the rest of the page for the same reason that you kept the Ascension font for most of that Technocracy character sheet: it maintains a small hint that this is still Mage: the Awakening, regardless of how much of the terminology and aesthetics have changed. That said, the inclusion of "Mage: the Awakening" in its title font immediately under the "Gifted" title would do a better job of that, much like how you have "Mage: the Ascension" underscoring "Technocracy" on your Technocracy sheet. So perhaps you should use the Technocracy font all the way through. It is legible enough for it. BTW, the second page's title lacks a the Gifted font that the first page used. I wouldn't worry about it for now, especially if you're thinking about redoing the borders and fonts anyway. Oh, and one last tweak (I swear, this is the last one!): change "Shadow Name" to simply "Name". The Gifted don't really go in for that stuff about names having actual power. Here is Wisdom: C larity before Harmony. The necessary conditions for a productive discussion: Candor: Say what you mean, and mean what you say. Intelligence: Think before you speak. Good Will: Assume the best interpretation of what you read. | Edit by user

Mr Gone

Wednesday, September 14, 2011 1:17:29 AM(UTC ) Dataweaver wrote: Mr Gone wrote: Dataweaver wrote: Mr Gone wrote: You like that font for the sheet then? I'll see what I can do about making a new Gifted sheet using that stuff then...hopefully soonish...

#42

The title font (i.e., "Technocracy" at the top of the page) would work well for "Gifted". But the font for the rest of the page should be the "Mage: the Awakening" font rather than the "Mage: the Ascension" font.

Think so? C ould I use that title font throughout.... But, if you think the awakening font would be best for the headers and such, I'll use it. I had been thinking of keeping the Awakening font for the rest of the page for the same reason that you kept the Ascension font for most of that Technocracy character sheet: it maintains a small hint that this is still Mage: the Awakening, regardless of how much of the terminology and aesthetics have changed. That said, the inclusion of "Mage: the Awakening" in its title font immediately under the "Gifted" title would do a better job of that, much like how you have "Mage: the Ascension" underscoring "Technocracy" on your Technocracy sheet. So perhaps you should use the Technocracy font all the way through. It is legible enough for it.

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Yea..good point. I'll play around with it when I start rebuilding it, see how it looks. But yea, adding a "Mage the Awakening" under the logo in the regular MtA font might work good... Thanks. Dataweaver wrote: BTW, the second page's title lacks a the Gifted font that the first page used. I wouldn't worry about it for now, especially if you're thinking about redoing the borders and fonts anyway.

Just checked and there was a font embedding issue. Should be fixed now. BTW, as for that font, I was having trouble finding one I liked, so I settled for that one. But yea, won't be a big deal if I'm gonna rebuild it... Dataweaver wrote: Oh, and one last tweak (I swear, this is the last one!): change "Shadow Name" to simply "Name". The Gifted don't really go in for that stuff about names having actual power.

Whoops...sorry, thought I fixed that. I did for Psychics, but guess I forgot for this one. Fixed now too..

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Dataweaver

Wednesday, September 14, 2011 1:24:54 AM(UTC )

#43

Looks like all of the bugs are gone now (I am not going to ask you to rebuild the dropdown boxes under the Experiments section on the back page; going through all of that to replace "Death" with "Morbid Studies", etc., and then putting it back into alphabetical order strikes me as way too much effort for not enough of a gain). That said, I'm looking forward to the reskinned version. Here is Wisdom: C larity before Harmony. The necessary conditions for a productive discussion: Candor: Say what you mean, and mean what you say. Intelligence: Think before you speak. Good Will: Assume the best interpretation of what you read.

Mr Gone

Wednesday, September 14, 2011 11:36:29 AM(UTC )

#44

Dataweaver wrote: Looks like all of the bugs are gone now (I am not going to ask you to rebuild the dropdown boxes under the Experiments section on the back page; going through all of that to replace "Death" with "Morbid Studies", etc., and then putting it back into alphabetical order strikes me as way too much effort for not enough of a gain). That said, I'm looking forward to the reskinned version.

Oh crap...I forgot those were all drop down with spells. Do you want me to make those regular type in lines for the new version? Or I can go through and rename those...I think. Guess we can see. Soprry about that...totally spaced. Anyway, just so you know, it's possible I might have someone that can make me a totally original border and logo for this sheet. He just got done helping me with a project for NWoD(hopefully to be announced later today or tomorrow) and I asked if he'd be interested in making an original border for this. So, we'll see how that goes. If not, then I'll be using the border we discussed.

Thanks for all the help!! I appreciate it. Oh, speaking of that, how did you like the "Tools" section on this sheet? I couldn't get room on the front page for something like that, so I thought a section on page 2 might be better. Hope that turned out ok for you..

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Dataweaver

Wednesday, September 14, 2011 2:33:15

#45
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Dataweaver
PM(UTC )

#45
Type-in lines for the Experiments (i.e., spells) should suffice, as it's unlikely that a Gifted Scientist's Experiments and Proven Theories would share the names of their spell and rote counterparts. I was wondering how you would manage the Tools, because I didn't see any way that you'd be able to find space for them next to the C olleges. What you did works out quite nicely, IMHO. Kudos! Here is Wisdom: C larity before Harmony. The necessary conditions for a productive discussion: Candor: Say what you mean, and mean what you say. Intelligence: Think before you speak. Good Will: Assume the best interpretation of what you read.

Mr Gone

Wednesday, September 14, 2011 4:31:52 PM(UTC )

#46

Dataweaver wrote: Type-in lines for the Experiments (i.e., spells) should suffice, as it's unlikely that a Gifted Scientist's Experiments and Proven Theories would share the names of their spell and rote counterparts.

Ok, coolness. It shall be done. work...lol. Dataweaver wrote:

Not sure why I didn't think of that before. I was having a bad day when it came to sheet

I was wondering how you would manage the Tools, because I didn't see any way that you'd be able to find space for them next to the C olleges. What you did works out quite nicely, IMHO. Kudos!

Ok, coolness! I was hoping that'd work out. Thanks!

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Thursday, September 15, 2011 3:30:10 PM(UTC )

#47

Ok, got new Gifted and Psychics sheets done. Give these a look and see what you think. I think they turned out pretty good. Hope you like em. http://mrgone.rocksolidshells.com/pdf/MtANWOD/Awakening2-Page_Gifted_Editable.pdf http://mrgone.rocksolidshells.com/pdf/MtANWOD/Awakening1-Page_Psychics_Editable.pdf

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Dataweaver

Friday, September 16, 2011 1:36:41 AM(UTC )

#48

Ooh! Shiny! I really, really like the way that the Gifted sheet turned out! (EDIT: one last change, please. C ould you change "Order" to "Foundation" and "Legacy" to "Academy"? It's a bit more of a stretch than most of the changes that have been made; but still...) The one problem that I have is with the Psychic sheet. I'm not at home; so I have to view this on my iPad, which doesn't give me access to the editable features. So be it: except that the Morality Substitute header is completely absent in my viewer. Is this a necessary evil brought on by the need to be able to customize that header, or is there a way around this issue? My main concern here has to do with what happens if someone who cannot edit the sheet wants to print it out. As things stand, he gets a blank spot where he can scribble in either "Self-C ontrol" or "Sanity", depending on the Storyteller's choice. While that's certainly functional, it's a bit ugly. Would it be too much to ask for a pair of nearly identical Psychic sheets, differing only in which Morality substitute gets used? Something like setting up the existing sheet to use Self-C ontrol, and also providing an "Awakening 1-Page Psychics with Sanity Editable" that uses Sanity instead? It's not like the Psychic section talks about using whatever Morality substitute you want to; the baseline assumption is that it will be Self-C ontrol, and Sanity only shows up as an optional rule for an already optional system. Here is Wisdom: C larity before Harmony.

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The necessary conditions for a productive discussion: Candor: Say what you mean, and mean what you say. Intelligence: Think before you speak. Good Will: Assume the best interpretation of what you read. | Edit by user

Mr Gone

Friday, September 16, 2011 11:58:51 AM(UTC )

#49

Dataweaver wrote: Ooh! Shiny! I really, really like the way that the Gifted sheet turned out! (EDIT: one last change, please. C ould you change "Order" to "Foundation" and "Legacy" to "Academy"? It's a bit more of a stretch than most of the changes that have been made; but still...)

I wondered if someone might not ask for that change....I'll see what I can do..

Dataweaver wrote: The one problem that I have is with the Psychic sheet. I'm not at home; so I have to view this on my iPad, which doesn't give me access to the editable features. So be it: except that the Morality Substitute header is completely absent in my viewer. Is this a necessary evil brought on by the need to be able to customize that header, or is there a way around this issue? My main concern here has to do with what happens if someone who cannot edit the sheet wants to print it out. As things stand, he gets a blank spot where he can scribble in either "Self-C ontrol" or "Sanity", depending on the Storyteller's choice. While that's certainly functional, it's a bit ugly.

Most PDF viewers should be able to view it fine. It's because that header is interactive that it doesn't display on the iPad. And yea, my iPad has issues displaying form fields too. Dataweaver wrote: Would it be too much to ask for a pair of nearly identical Psychic sheets, differing only in which Morality substitute gets used? Something like setting up the existing sheet to use Self-C ontrol, and also providing an "Awakening 1-Page Psychics with Sanity Editable" that uses Sanity instead? It's not like the Psychic section talks about using whatever Morality substitute you want to; the baseline assumption is that it will be Self-C ontrol, and Sanity only shows up as an optional rule for an already optional system.

Yea, I might be able to do something like that. I'll see what I can do...

Edit: Looks like I'm not going home for lunch today, so I'll post the new links after work today..

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Mr Gone

Friday, September 16, 2011 8:42:17 PM(UTC ) Here are the new links: http://mrgone.rocksolidshells.com/pdf/MtANWOD/Awakening2-Page_Gifted_Editable.pdf http://mrgone.rocksolidshells.com/pdf/MtANWOD/Awakening1-Page_Psychics_Editable.pdf http://mrgone.rocksolidshells.com/pdf/MtANWOD/Awakening1-Page_Psychicsv2_Editable.pdf

#50

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White Wolf New World of Darkness Mage: The Awakening Expanding the Gifted Expanding the Gifted Options View
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Dataweaver

Tuesday, January 25, 2011 4:52:42 AM(UTC )

#1

I like the Gifted Science section from Mage Chronicler's Guide a lot; but I've come to the conclusion that it's incomplete. The purpose of this topic is to propose ways to expand on what MCG provided, and/or to play around with the ideas presented there. A quick note before I begin: I don't think that Gifted Scientists should be viewed as "merely" a reskinning of Mage; that is, there should be some very real differences between the Gifted and the Awakened that go beyond window dressing. In my own games, the two groups have fundamentally different ways of looking at the world, with Gifted scientists putting skeptical examination of the world around them as the only valid means of discerning truth, while Awakened mystics draw much of their understanding of the universal truths from epiphanies, Supernal visions, and/or divine revelations. Nor does the distinction stop there: the Proven Theories of Gifted Science are analogous to the Rotes of Awakened Magic; but they are not the same thing - a tome of rotes is useless to the Gifted, as is an archive of proven theories to the Awakened. With that in mind: Option #1 The first optional rule that I'm considering is that the Gifted don't get the same set of "core abilities" that the Awakened do. It makes sense for a mage to be able to channel Mana into his Pattern in order to heal damage, or to scour his Pattern in order to free up Mana; it doesn't make sense for a scientist to do the same with Vision. Note that this definitely hinders scientists in comparison to mages. I wouldn't mind suggestions for some sort of compensating ability that fits the concept behind Vision, though it's OK if nothing comes up: my primary goal here is to stay true to the concept, and game balance takes a back seat to that. Option #2 Similar to the above, vision quests aren't part and parcel of the scientist's experience; scientists lack the innate ability to engage in Astral Sojourns, although the C ollege of Essential and Advanced Psychology includes a Proven Theory that allows for the same sort of thing, for those scientists who are familiar with it. C onversely, tool-making is part and parcel of the scientist's experience, and every scientist has the innate ability to create the equivalent of Imbued Items. Paths, Orders, and Legacies Mage Chronicler's Guide states quite clearly that the Gifted have no experience of the Watchtowers, and do not have Paths. It says nothing about how Gifted culture is to be organized. One way to approach this is to say that the Gifted are Pathless (p.103), which has a set of benefits and drawbacks that further differentiate them from the Awakened. Given the greater prominence that Legacies are given by the Pathless option, a natural complement to this is the Shadow Academies (p.108), where an Academy is essentially a Legacy that also provides the mechanical benefits of an Order (e.g., Rote Specialties). This provides the Gifted with an overall society that feels quite different from the overarching Paths and Orders of Awakened society; but it only works if you have a selection of Academies to choose from. Of the published Legacies, only one would really work as an Academy for the Gifted: the Transhuman Engineers. Drop the Parent Path and add some Rote Specialties (Science and two others), and you're pretty much good to go. The Threnodists and the Forge Masters could be adapted in a pinch for use as Gifted Academies; but both would require a fair amount of reworking first. For the most part, Academies need to be made up out of whole cloth. At a minimum, you would need ten, with at least one Academy per C ollege (i.e., Arcanum). The Transhuman Engineers specialize in Forces; but even if they get adapted to this purpose, that still leaves nine other C olleges in need of Academies to teach them. And as suitable as the Transhuman Engineers might be to this purpose, I'd still be inclined to leave them as an Awakened Legacy, representing the closest thing to Gifted Science that the Awakened have. So: to use this approach, I need ideas for scientific Academies. As outlined above, each should be designed as a Legacy would be, but with the addition of specifying three "Rote Specialties". The idea is that nearly all Gifted scientists will be inducted into one Academy or another; even with only Insight 1, membership in an Academy provides the Gifted with a primary C ollege, three "Rote specialties" (which need a more appropriate name), and access to that Academy's database of Proven Theories. As per Pathless, Insight 2, 4, and 6 provide the scientist with a first, second, and third Attainment, respectively. Mage: the Ascension can be raided for ideas, if need be; although the Technocratic C onventions carry too much of a "Seers of the Throne" vibe to be usable as protagonist-friendly Academies as written. One drawback to this approach is that it makes scientists perhaps a little too dependent on their Academies in general, and their mentors in particular. How else might the "no Paths, and no information about organization" issue be addressed? Here is Wisdom: C larity before Harmony. The necessary conditions for a productive discussion: Candor: Say what you mean, and mean what you say. Intelligence: Think before you speak. Good Will: Assume the best interpretation of what you read. | Edit by user 1 user thanked Dataweaver for this useful post. Darkhunter on 9/24/2011(UTC )

Reflections85

Tuesday, January 25, 2011 8:12:16 PM(UTC ) "Dataweaver" wrote: Option #1 The first optional rule that I'm considering is that the Gifted don't get the same set of "core abilities" that the

#2

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Awakened do. It makes sense for a mage to be able to channel Mana into his Pattern in order to heal damage, or to scour his Pattern in order to free up Mana; it doesn't make sense for a scientist to do the same with Vision. Note that this definitely hinders scientists in comparison to mages. I wouldn't mind suggestions for some sort of compensating ability that fits the concept behind Vision, though it's OK if nothing comes up: my primary goal here is to stay true to the concept, and game balance takes a back seat to that.

I have three ideas. My rst is just to transfer pa ern scouring/healing to the Mental A ributes. A Gi ed Scien st would have the power to sacrice a dot of any Mental A ribute to gain three points of Vision. They could also sacrice points of Willpower to do the same, or pay three points of Vision to recover one point of Willpower. My second idea is that a Gi ed Scien st could be able to see the composi on of a material/event in terms of the Colleges. For example, they could observe a Vampire and instantly determine that it had a strong aura of Morbid Studies about it (Note, it would only show the College, not any other Resonance). This would be an instant ac on, but would require a roll (Wits+Composure) to stop. This would allow the Gi ed Scien st to be er determine which Mage Sight spell to use. The act would also grant them a bonus to the Mage Sight (they could ac vate it as if it was a Proven Theorem), but they could only see things in rela on to their Mage Sight. So if one ac vated Energy Evolu ons Mage Sight, that one would see only phenomena that was part of Energy Evolu ons purview and nothing more (i.e. they would only see energy). A third idea would be to grant them some advantage with their rst theorem. On page 89, the book notes that Gi ed Scien sts inscribe some theorem or design in a manner similar to a Mage inscribing their name on a Watchtower. In this case, a Gi ed Scien sts rst inscrip on would be an Experiment. I have three ideas regarding that: 1) The Experiment would have an inherent bonus to it (possible a at bonus, like three dice, or a bonus based on a trait such as Intelligence), 2) By paying one point of Vision the Experiment would be automa cally ac vated as if the Scien st scored one success on the role to cast it, or 3) the Experiment acts as a Proven Theorem.

"Dataweaver" wrote: Paths, Orders, and Legacies Mage Chronicler's Guide states quite clearly that the Gi ed have no experience of the Watchtowers, and do not have Paths. It says nothing about how Gi ed culture is to be organized. One way to approach this is to say that the Gi ed are Pathless (p.103), which has a set of benets and drawbacks that further dieren ate them from the Awakened. Given the greater prominence that Legacies are given by the Pathless op on, a natural complement to this is the Shadow Academies (p.108), where an Academy is essen ally a Legacy that also provides the mechanical benets of an Order (e.g., Rote Special es).

Rather than starting with no dots I think that it might be better for them to start off with one dot which they can freely place in any C ollege. The reasons are that I think that starting off with no dots weakens the Gifted a bit too much, and that I do not think that they would notice Enlightenment if they started with no dots. Allow me to explain, with only Gnosis, how would they differentiate themselves from normal humans? Gifted Scientists have few innate abilities, and all they would have from their Enlightenment is a flash of insight. It seems that such people would be unaware that anything was different about them, and even if they were it would seem rather difficult for others to detect them. As a concession, Gifted Scientists might only be capable of performing radical experiments either when they obtain twelve proven theorems or when they reach the second dot of a C ollege (if we were to use my suggestion based on their first theorem).

"Dataweaver" wrote: This provides the Gifted with an overall society that feels quite different from the overarching Paths and Orders of Awakened society; but it only works if you have a selection of Academies to choose from. Of the published Legacies, only one would really work as an Academy for the Gifted: the Transhuman Engineers. Drop the Parent Path and add some Rote Specialties (Science and two others), and you're pretty much good to go. The Threnodists and the Forge Masters could be adapted in a pinch for use as Gifted Academies; but both would require a fair amount of reworking first. For the most part, Academies need to be made up out of whole cloth. At a minimum, you would need ten, with at least one Academy per C ollege (i.e., Arcanum). The Transhuman Engineers specialize in Forces; but even if they get adapted to this purpose, that still leaves nine other C olleges in need of Academies to teach them. And as suitable as the Transhuman Engineers might be to this purpose, I'd still be inclined to leave them as an Awakened Legacy, representing the closest thing to Gifted Science that the Awakened have.

So: to use this approach, I need ideas for scientific Academies. As outlined above, each should be designed as a Legacy would be, but with the addition of specifying three "Rote Specialties". The idea is that nearly all Gifted scientists will be inducted into one Academy or another; even with only Insight 1, membership in an Academy provides the Gifted with a primary C ollege, three "Rote specialties" (which need a more appropriate name), and access to that Academy's database of Proven Theories. As per Pathless, Insight 2, 4, and 6 provide the scientist with a first, second, and third Attainment, respectively. Mage: the Ascension can be raided for ideas, if need be; although the Technocratic C onventions carry too much of a "Seers of the Throne" vibe to be usable as protagonist-friendly Academies as written.

One drawback to this approach is that it makes scientists perhaps a little too dependent on their Academies in general, and their mentors in particular. How else might the "no Paths, and no information about organization" issue be addressed?

I actually have a ques on about your use of Academies. Do you want them to be a philosophy? If not, something you could do is have ten general groups (each one based on one College), which would have very lose requirements for entry, but would not have rote special es or a ainments (those will need a new name). A second level might focus on specic applica ons of a College and have rote special es, but no a ainments. A nal third level would be a philosophy regarding the use of the College, and would have a ainments. Let us take Morbid Studies as an example: One would have the Academy of Morbid Studies, which teach rotes (poten al only one or two dot rotes). Next there would be the Sub-Academy (Discipline?) of Ephemeral Interac ons (this group would study the eects of Morbid Studies on Ghosts, Twilight, etc), which would teach rote special es (and poten ally three dot rotes). The nal group might be Transforma ves, who believe that proper use of Morbid Studies can allow a person to survive a er death as truly sen ent Ghosts. They would grant three a ainments (and poten ally four or ve dot rotes). For the Transhuman Engineers, I would imagine that it would be an example of convergent evolu on. Both Mage and Scien st groups would be interested in Transhumanism and so both would create socie es based on it. Another op on might be that Mages or Gi ed a empt to copy one anothers ideas every once and awhile and such legacies are one result. Speaking of Legacies and a ainments, something that could be done to dieren ate Gi ed Scien st from Mages might be to allow Gi ed Scien sts to create Legacies with mul ple Colleges. For example, a Gi ed Scien st could have the Transhuman Legacy (new word needed), which might have a Biological Manipula on College spell as the rst a ainment (to allow small improvements of their body), an Elemental Chemistry College spell as the second a ainment (to allow them to integrate inorganic material into their body), and an Energy Evolu on College spell as the third a ainment (to allow them to directly aect technology outside their body).

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As a side note, it might be a good idea to come up with new terms for the Gi ed Scien sts, some of them feel rather gangly.

Dataweaver

Wednesday, January 26, 2011 2:19:52 AM(UTC )

#3

"Reflections85" wrote: I have three ideas. My first is just to transfer pattern scouring/healing to the Mental Attributes. A Gifted Scientist would have the power to sacrifice a dot of any Mental Attribute to gain three points of Vision. They could also sacrifice points of Willpower to do the same, or pay three points of Vision to recover one point of Willpower. Hmm... Perhaps. In many ways, Willpower can be thought of as a mental analog to the Health track; so maybe the easiest approach would be to allow the Gifted to trade off between Willpower and Vision the same way that the Awakened can trade off between Health and Mana. In general, the simpler solutions are better; and the stronger the parallel to the rule being replaced, the better. "Reflections85" wrote: My second idea is that a Gifted Scientist could be able to see the composition of a material/event in terms of the C olleges. For example, they could observe a Vampire and instantly determine that it had a strong aura of Morbid Studies about it (Note, it would only show the C ollege, not any other Resonance). This would be an instant action, but would require a roll (Wits+C omposure) to stop. This would allow the Gifted Scientist to better determine which Mage Sight spell to use. The act would also grant them a bonus to the Mage Sight (they could activate it as if it was a Proven Theorem), but they could only see things in relation to their Mage Sight. So if one activated Energy Evolutions Mage Sight, that one would see only phenomena that was part of Energy Evolutions purview and nothing more (i.e. they would only see energy). This strikes me as overly complex. But it does raise an interesting point: there are other innate abilities that mages have besides pattern mending/scouring and astral sojourns; are any of them inappropriate for Gifted Scientists, and if so can they be replaced with something more appropriate? "Reflections85" wrote: A third idea would be to grant them some advantage with their first theorem. On page 89, the book notes that Gifted Scientists inscribe some theorem or design in a manner similar to a Mage inscribing their name on a Watchtower. In this case, a Gifted Scientists first inscription would be an Experiment. I have three ideas regarding that: 1) The Experiment would have an inherent bonus to it (possible a flat bonus, like three dice, or a bonus based on a trait such as Intelligence), 2) By paying one point of Vision the Experiment would be automatically activated as if the Scientist scored one success on the role to cast it, or 3) the Experiment acts as a Proven Theorem. My main concern here is that this might be putting too much mechanics into the backstory. I do like the way that it emphasizes the differences between an Enlightenment and an Awakening; and it does make sense that a Scientist's Enlightenment culminates in the formulation of an Experiment, at least as far as conceptualizing a Blueprint. But I'm not so fond of the idea that there's any lasting benefit involving that particular Experiment. Keep it as a backstory element, to be as important or as insignificant to the Scientist's current events as the player wants it to be. "Reflections85" wrote: Rather than starting with no dots I think that it might be better for them to start off with one dot which they can freely place in any C ollege. The reasons are that I think that starting off with no dots weakens the Gifted a bit too much, and that I do not think that they would notice Enlightenment if they started with no dots. Yeah; that was bothering me too. The Pathless option is a bit too draconian in this regard, as well as with its insistence that a teacher is required to improve in a C ollege. That approach rules out the "lone mad scientist" archetype; so a Scientist needs to have at least some ability to do independent research. More generally, the Pathless option is written with the assumption that Gnosis comes from experiencing the Supernal World, and that the Pathless are cut off from that experience: "Without a Path, mages Awaken exclusively in mystery plays they are aware that the world is a Lie but lack any experience of the truth so must try to find it for themselves." That's fine for mages, but the Enlightened gain Insight through skeptical examination of the Fallen World, and should not be hindered in their ability to learn by being "cut off" from a World that may not even exist in any real sense. What I do like about the Pathless writeup are these parts: "Without Paths, though, a mage is not tied down to a specific Realm. He may require a teacher, but learns all Arcana at the Common rate. Legacies are more numerous and freer, shaping an Awakened but unbiased soul rather than trying to shape one that is already in tune with a Realm means that Attainments come at one Gnosis dot less. The lack of Path symbolism means that mages can dedicate almost anything as magical tools. Most valuable of all, magic does not flow across the Abyss, but instead stirs the energies already in the Fallen World." This is phrased in terms of magic; but the underlying concepts closely match my thoughts about what Gifted Science should be like, save for the bit about mandatory teachers. "Reflections85" wrote: I actually have a question about your use of Academies. Do you want them to be a philosophy? If not, something you could do is have ten general groups (each one based on one C ollege), which would have very lose requirements for entry, but would not have rote specialties or attainments (those will need a new name). A second level might focus on specific applications of a C ollege and have rote specialties, but no attainments. A final third level would be a philosophy regarding the use of the C ollege, and would have attainments. The Academies idea wasn't mine; it came from Mage Chronicler's Guide . In there, the Shadow Academies model essentially describes the notion that Legacies (now called Academies) replace Orders as the primary organizing structure of mage society; the only difference between a Legacy and an Academy is that the latter picks up the slack for the nonexistent Orders (e.g., rote specialties, High Speech, and rotes). There wouldn't be ten Academies, each dedicated to one C ollege; the number would be open-ended, with every C ollege being favored by multiple Academies. Think more along the lines of the C ompacts and C onspiracies from Hunter : just because the core book only detailed twelve(?) of them, that doesn't mean that there's all that there is. But writing up dozens of Academies is a daunting task; so to keep things relatively manageable, I'd start by writing up a sample Academy for each C ollege. That's still ten write-ups, which isn't easy; but it's better than coming up with dozens of them. Another possibility would be to say that the Enlightened do have equivalents to the Orders, a set of (say) four to eight broad philosophical approaches to Gifted Science that work the same way that Orders do. But what would they be? If this is done, then "Academy" simply becomes the Gifted counterpart to "Legacy". "Reflections85" wrote: For the Transhuman Engineers, I would imagine that it would be an example of convergent evolution. Both Mage and Scientist groups would be interested in Transhumanism and so both would create societies based on it. Another option might be that Mages or Gifted attempt to copy one anothers ideas every once and awhile and such legacies are one result.
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And another possibility is that the Transhuman Engineers are an exception to the rule, that their Rotes double as Proven Theories and vice versa, and that they are simultaneously an Awakened Legacy and an Enlightened Academy. "Reflections85" wrote: Speaking of Legacies and attainments, something that could be done to differentiate Gifted Scientist from Mages might be to allow Gifted Scientists to create Legacies with multiple C olleges. For example, a Gifted Scientist could have the Transhuman Legacy (new word needed), which might have a Biological Manipulation C ollege spell as the first attainment (to allow small improvements of their body), an Elemental C hemistry C ollege spell as the second attainment (to allow them to integrate inorganic material into their body), and an Energy Evolution C ollege spell as the third attainment (to allow them to directly affect technology outside their body). With the Pathless option, the Academies/Legacies become the only way to get "Ruling Arcana" (or "Favored C olleges"); so perhaps it wouldn't be too bad to let each provide more than one. Here is Wisdom: C larity before Harmony. The necessary conditions for a productive discussion: Candor: Say what you mean, and mean what you say. Intelligence: Think before you speak. Good Will: Assume the best interpretation of what you read. | Edit by user

TheKingsRaven

Wednesday, January 26, 2011 5:04:36 AM(UTC )

#4

I think to me the biggest problem with the Gifted is the idea of enlightenment and Paradox. To me a massive part of what makes science amazing is that anyone can do it, and part of what makes a great scientist is the abiltiy to teach average Joes something they didn't know about the universe. The Gifted fail on both tests which lowers them into the position of "Magic with technobabble" (which would be fine if you're playing mad scientists. Mad science is just a more awesome high energy form of magic)

So here's two rules to fix that.

Vampires can recruit at will, it costs 8 exp so working backwards from that: Anyone can become a Gifted Scientist by rolling an extended Intelligence + Science until they get 20 successes. They then spend exp and gain the template. If they are working alone lab hermit style it costs 12 exp. If they have a materials written by a Gifted, especially ones written to teach beginners, they gain an exp discount and a bonus to the roll equal to the books Equipment Bonus. If they have a teacher they can roll as a teamwork action. The teacher rolls Wits + Expression. The exp discount is equal to the teacher's expression.

Anyone can use an Imbued Item created by the Gifted. But unless they're Gifted they increase the Paradox dice by the highest Arcana used to create it due to misuse and incompetence. Buying a Merit, dots equal to the highest Arcana, to represent training by the created or just really really reading the instruction manual removes this problem.

The problem is that with those rules nearly every scientist would be gifted and Imbued Technology would commonly be in the hands of mundane experts. And that's sort of the point. I understand that the Gifted are supposed to be Einstein level visionaries but Einstein himself spent a lot of time teaching ordinary students and his work is read and understood by ordinary scientists (and non-scientists) around the globe. Unless the Gifted can do that they're not scientists, just a reskinned Mage (though as I said before, mad science gets a free pass)

Dataweaver

Thursday, February 24, 2011 8:36:36 AM(UTC )

#5

Your basic premise as I understand it: in order to be science, anyone should be able to do it; and the mark of a true scientist is his ability to make science understandable to the average Joe. While I sort of agree in principle, I generally don't agree in practice. First of all: just in the field of mathematics, I know of a lot of people who simply don't grok it. In some cases, it's because they're willfully limiting themselves ("I've never been good at math; it's just not my thing!" ); in other cases, they lack the time and inclination to figure it out; and in a few cases, they genuinely are unable to get into the mindset needed to get the more abstract mathematical concepts (geometry isn't really about lines and shapes; it's about proofs and the methodical way of thinking that is required to understand and work with them). And even some people who have a "head for numbers" (myself included) aren't particularly adept at coming up with something new. And that, IMHO, is the essence of Gifted Science: the ability to invent, repeatedly and reliably. That is what Enlightenment provides, and what the Insight/Vision mechanic represents: the ability to come up with innovative concepts and radical new theories. That spark of genius can be nurtured when it is found; but it isn't something that everybody has, and it's not something that everyone will achieve given sufficient persistence. In particular, I don't buy your mechanism for allowing every scientist to eventually achieve Enlightenment. OTOH, I like the idea that Proven Theories can be taught to, and performed by, those who aren't Enlightened; indeed, I agree that it is instrumental in making sure that Gifted Science isn't merely Magic with fancy window dressing. But it needn't be easy for "ordinary folk" to learn or use the esoteric theories that Gifted Science is composed of. So, a couple of counter-proposals: 1. Among the Enlightened, Sleepers and Sleepwalkers are thought of as the C lose-Minded and the Open-Minded, respectively. Only the Open-Minded can learn Proven Theorems; the C lose-Minded self-sabotage any such efforts. Among the OpenMinded, each Proven Theory is learned as a Merit, rated at (rank + 1) dots. Or perhaps anyone can learn Proven Theories; but the C lose-Minded will self-sabotage their efforts to put their learning into practice (through the usual mechanic of adding dice to an Inconceivable Experiment's Uncertainty pool, or by invoking an Uncertainty roll on a Plausible but improbable Experiment). So: in principle, anyone could learn any given scientific theory, be it "normal" science or "Gifted Science"; but in practice, many people close themselves off from the possibility, and only a very few have the knack for innovation.
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(C onversely, I'd be open to the idea that Gifted Science does not otherwise suffer from C lose-Minded witnesses: they do not add to the Uncertainty of anyone's experiments but their own, nor do they Unravel successful Experiments simply by observing them. But they do still suffer from Disbelief, rationalizing away anything that they can't wrap their minds around.) 2. Adapt the Ritual Magic section at the end of the Mirror Magic chapter to the Gifted Science perspective, in particular implementing the "Variants within Variants" options of not requiring groups (but still benefiting from them) and especially the "screw the Awakened!" option: anyone can perform any Proven Theory that he has access to by using an adapted version of the Ritual Magic rules, assuming that they have sufficient scientific training. The main trick in doing this would be to come up with scientific analogs to reagents; but that shouldn't be too hard to manage. Or you could combine the two options: use option #1 for the most part, but allow for a variation on option #2 that lets the extra preparations and efforts that a "ritual magic" analog would entail to substitute for Vision: instead of the requirements being based on the Experiment's C ollege rating, base them on its Vision cost. So Proven Theories that don't require Vision can be performed normally, but those that do normally require Vision may instead be performed by slower, more meticulous means (and must be performed in this manner if the scientist in question isn't Enlightened). Bear in mind that, by the analogy that exists between Gifted Science and Awakened Magic, the Enlightened can use their Vision to mitigate Uncertainty; under this system, sufficient caution on the part of a non-Enlightened scientist (in the form of the ritual magic rules) could do likewise; but it would require a lot more time and research, and would greatly benefit from collaboration with other scientists. Thoughts? Here is Wisdom: C larity before Harmony. The necessary conditions for a productive discussion: Candor: Say what you mean, and mean what you say. Intelligence: Think before you speak. Good Will: Assume the best interpretation of what you read.

Dataweaver

Friday, September 16, 2011 2:39:27 AM(UTC ) Trying my hand at Thread Necromancy. In the thread concerning character sheets, Isator Levi suggested some possible Gifted alternatives for the Orders. I'm wondering if these could be fleshed out into full Order-like write-ups.

#6

Meanwhile, it might be worth going back to some oMage factions for Academy ideas, bearing in mind that Gifted Scientists aren't, by default, technocrats (so Technocrat-inspired Academies might need to be given a more positive spin). I was hoping for something in the way of new ideas; but any port in a storm. Here is Wisdom: C larity before Harmony. The necessary conditions for a productive discussion: Candor: Say what you mean, and mean what you say. Intelligence: Think before you speak. Good Will: Assume the best interpretation of what you read.

Mr Gone

Friday, September 16, 2011 11:35:36 PM(UTC ) Just to say it...I think it's cool you're working on this.

#7

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StSword

Thursday, September 22, 2011 7:17:25 AM(UTC ) "Ritual science" is something I've toyed with myself. Making gifted scientists different from mages is something I've considered, at least psychics got some differing rules. Replacing the ability to enter astral space with the similar ability to enter the digital realm, ala that rote in the free council book, but honestly that seems a bit too Tron. Maybe just a popular affect.

#8

Another idea I toyed with is making the plug ins from bleeding edge the scientist version of artifacts, which everyone can use. Seems appropriate for gifted science. | Edit by user

Dataweaver

Thursday, September 22, 2011 9:29:07 AM(UTC )

#9

Well, I figure that Gifted Scientists have a Proven Theory that exactly parallels the aforementioned Free Council Rote, and possibly a more powerful one that does the Tron thing of bodily transporting you into the digital realm; but I don't see it as being an innate ability common to all Gifted. Personally, I see such Experiments as being more apropos to a particular group of Gifted Scientists (e.g., take the Zero C oders Legacy from the wiki and convert them into an Academy). (Side note: where Legacies provide the Awakened with Attainments, perhaps the Academies of the Gifted provide them with Degrees? Mechanically the same thing; just different terminology. You might even extend the academia analogy by calling them Bachelor's Degrees, Master's Degrees, and Doctorates of the appropriate Academy rather than First, Second, and Third Attainments of a given Legacy.) The question in my mind is whether or not the Gifted have anything that allows them to enter actual Astral Space in roughly the manner that mages do: there should definitely be Essential and Advanced Psychology Experiments that allow the Gifted to enter other peoples' dreams, a la Dreamscape or Inception; but that strikes me as being more akin to the way that
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Changeling dream travel works rather than how mages ascend through the various layers of Astral Space. C ertainly, it oughtn't be an innate ability that all of the Gifted share. I think that this is one place where attempting to maintain symmetry between Mages and Scientists would be a bad idea, except in the most general sense of giving both types some sort of innate ability: the Gifted don't really lend themselves to doing out-of-body experiences without an appropriate C ollege to back it up. OTOH, I can see every Gifted Scientist being able to make Inventions (i.e., Imbued Items) with just the C rafts skill and the appropriate C ollege(s) for the Experiment that the Invention duplicates - no need for three dots in Elemental Particles the way that mages need three dots in Prime to Imbue Items. I could see the Gifted being able to make Plug-Ins as per Bleeding Edge, though my own preference would be to let them incorporate Experiments into a living being by means of the C ollege of Biological Manipulation - why incorporate a whole different ruleset when the existing one is quite sufficient to the task? At this point, my main interest is in fleshing out Gifted culture: should there be Foundations (i.e., Orders)? If so, what should they be? As I linked above, Isator Levi suggested some bare-bones sketches of such: Isator Levi wrote: Like, say, one Foundation devoted to using its innovations to help mankind, one who feels that they should use their advances for their own profit, one who is devoted to actively improving humanity, who who is interested purely in research and providing funds and infrastructure to aid research, and one who is dedicated to regulating the others and ensuring that they adhere to certain ethical and professional standards. Names for each would be helpful, as would suggestions for "Rote Specialties", assuming that the concept still makes sense for Gifted Foundations. And whether or not there are any Foundations for the Gifted, I'm interested in ideas for Academies: thus far, the only ideas I've got are to adapt the Transhuman Engineers for use as an Academy, and to adapt the Zero C oders as an Academy. Here is Wisdom: C larity before Harmony. The necessary conditions for a productive discussion: Candor: Say what you mean, and mean what you say. Intelligence: Think before you speak. Good Will: Assume the best interpretation of what you read.

Dataweaver

Thursday, September 22, 2011 3:39:03 PM(UTC )

#10

OK; I just reviewed the material on Orders found in Mage Chronicler's Guide. Below, I've tweaked the summary on the nature of the Orders to instead represent the Foundations of the Gifted community. Quote: After Enlightening, scientists are recruited to one of the Foundations. The Foundations offer training in Esoteric Mathematics and a few introductory proven theories as tasters to encourage new gifted into their doors, but to join properly requires initiation. The Foundations are organized as academic departments in which new scientists are trained en masse by professors, who each have a staff of disciples to assist them in their own studies and answer up to a council of masters, with learning being freely shared within the organization. As well, the gifted within a given Foundation submit discoveries for peer review and testing. The Foundations are distinguished by how their members approach the Mysteries and the purpose of Science. The Foundations rise and fall with the rigors of history. The relationship between Proven Theories and mundane skills varies by Academy rather than by Foundation.

Some things to note: the language of science is mathematics; similarly, the High Speech of Science is Esoteric Mathematics. According to MCG, the organization of the Foundations among academic lines means that "Esoteric Experience" tends to come from mentoring younger scientists - the idea being that you don't truly understand a subject until you can teach it to others. The other significant difference is that the Foundations lack the "Supernal weight" that the Orders have: unlike the Orders, the Foundations change over both space and time rather than tending to re-establish themselves after seemingly getting wiped out and existing globally. Finally, rote specialties tend to vary according to Academy rather than Foundation; as such, individual Foundations don't really have unique game mechanical bonuses associated with them. Indeed, Foundations are effectively alliances of more or less like-minded Academies rather than being organizations in and of themselves: if two Academies share a common Foundation, they're more likely to end up cooperating rather than fighting each other. Academies should be a bit like Orders (in that they provide Rote Specialties), a bit like Legacies (in that they provide a "Major C ollege" and a series of Degrees), and a bit like Proximus Dynasties (in that they can teach Proven Theories to Open-Minded students whether or not they are Gifted, in a manner not unlike a Proximus acquiring Blessings). This, I hope, should satisfy TheKingsRaven's request that "Supernal Science" be available to anyone who is willing to learn it. Now I just need names for each Foundation, two or three Academies per Foundation, and one or two Academies per C ollege. Here is Wisdom: C larity before Harmony. The necessary conditions for a productive discussion: Candor: Say what you mean, and mean what you say. Intelligence: Think before you speak. Good Will: Assume the best interpretation of what you read.

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