Si alafia ni !

I understand their are different branches of Lukumi that came from Cuba - Pimienta (seems to be very prominent here in U.S.- at least from my experience), Trapatito ? ( I know I probably spelled that wrong, so please pardon that mistake), Funke ? (perhaps this is not an actual branch, but just a faulty memory on my part), or there others ? I am ignorant of those things, so I am asking. Not asking for secret information, just historical, cultural Obviously, it would seem, that part of difference in those lines would be different original founders way of doing things, perspectives, etc. And I know that even within the Pimienta line, there will be differences between one ile and another ile. I have listed some questions below. What are the different branches of Lukumi in Cuba ? Was that difference based on the different regions of Nigeria that the original founders came from ? ( I understand that from one region of Nigeria to another there will be differences in patakis, songs, etc.) How did the words "pimienta", "trapatito", "funke" etc. etc. get to be attached to those particular lines ?

Can priests from Pimienta work with those from Trapatito(sp?) or vice versa ? Thank you for your time and hope that you all have/are had a great Thanksgiving holiday. I appreciate any comments, answers, or responses you would have to share.

Se Alafia ni ? Old Time Religion, Ibunike, members and visitors, (Point of interest I hope. . . =0) The phrase Se Alafia ni is a question. It is simlar to saying How do you do? Or Como esta usted. Se lf n, (Shay ala fe ah nee) Is all peacefull with you? Is all well with you? The response can be lf n adupe, I am well thank you or just, Adupe thank you. Adupe = we thank you or we give thanks or perhaps let us be thankful. Modupe, I thank you, I give thanks, I am thankful. I was taught by teachers of Ede Yoruba I have had over the years that Adupe is preferable to Modupe, especially if you think of the response as let us be thankful)

In reference to the question, at present, I am no where near as well versed on the rams and their history as I would like to be. I have the great good fourtune to have my Padrino (in Obe) visiting with me. I will ask him about the the various Rama, (branches) and share the answer with the forum. I may not however be prompt with a response, since I have a special guest, Perhaps our Abure Oba Ecun could privide the forum with an answer before I have had the chance to get back with what my Padrino has to say. I can say this though, the Rama you called Curo Verde is actually called Culo Verde. Be well Obalorun Ala Aganju (Edited by Obalorun Alafia Ni! Another two are: Rama de los Millionarios (Oba Willie Ramos belongs to this one) & Rama de la Bandera (I heard of this one in Cuba). "Los culoverdes" is more a reference to being somewhat closer to "countrified" and not quite urbanized as those who lived in a major city like "La Habana". Verde, in this case, is asscoiated with "unripe" (not fit for city living), hence the term "culoverde" ("unripe azz"). Culo Verde ? That would translate into English as Green Ass ? Alafia ni adupe Old time, Alafia member and visitor to OLU forum, Culo Verde, has been around for quite a while. If, I am not mistaken, was called that because they were people from Matanzas province, who came into the Havana area. Yes, it does mean green asses. One of the most famous Culo Verde people was Lino Apolinar Gonzalez, Polo Ocha Weye. Again, if I am not mistaken, Culo Verde descends from Fermina Gomez, Ocha Bi, who was according to John mason, was an Egbado/ Egba. I am connected to this rama through kari Ocha and Polo Ocha Weye gave Obe to my Padrino in Ocha Chris Oliana, who was one the first two Black Americans to make Ocha in Cuba. The other was the King of Oyotunji Village Oseijiman Adefunmi. I received Obe in the Coral Rama, which descends from Latuan, Timotea Albear, ( likewise an Egbado/Egba) who was initiated in Africa and was one of major movers and shakers in the establishment of La Regla de Ocha as it exists today. The Pimienta Rama, descends from Maria Togua, if memory serves me, I do not know her particular background. It could be said that a particular "ethnic influence" was what region of Yoruba country the founders came from or what influences were strongest where the people were. According to my Padrino, in

Matanzas, the main influences are Ijesha and Arara, who are a distinct ethnic group, to the west of main section of Yoruba country, in what used to called Dahomey. The Ijesha, whose "capital" is called Ilesha are from an area that is situated between Ife in the South and Oshogbo on the North. The worship of Oshun and Ogun is strong amongst Ijesha people. There is a rhythm and a particular type of drums and drumming specific to the Ijesha. These drums and the rhythm are both named for them Ijesha or in Cuba Iyesa. It is my understanding that the strong influences in the Havana area are those of the Egbado/Egba and the Oyo. There is some Arara and Iyesa influences, found in the Havana area. But as far as I know the Egbado/ Egba influence is the most prominent. I have mispoken, it is my sincere wish that someone will please rescue me. Be well Obalorun Ala Aganju Good Morning OTR, Bendicion Baba Obalorun & Board, According to my understanding of what I was told by a friend who is a scholar and Olo'batala, who has been researching Lukumi lines for more than fourteen years in the United States and in Cuba, Trapito is the same as La Pimienta. My understanding is that La Pimienta was founded by Aurora Lamar, Oba Tola (Ibae). Her nickname was "La China de Maximiliano" because she had a tattoo with that name on it, and because of her Asian features. She lived in the Barrio Atare in El Cero, Havana. Atare is Lukumi for Guinea Pepper, hence the name "Pimienta" (Spanish for pepper). I also think I was told that she was the Madam of a "Joy House," and that she initiated quite a few of the "ladies," so her branch was one of "spicy" people. I think I was also told that Aurora Lamar was initiated by Jose Urquiola, "Jose Pata de Palo"(Ibae), who was the founder of La Rama Culo Verde. When he came from Matanzas, the Habaneros thought he was a bumpkin from the country. So, La Pimienta was born from Culo Verde. Someone wrote that Coral came from Aurora Lamar, but I tend to think it came from one of her God children, or from her God children's God children. Las Piraas or Pirhanas also came from La Pimienta. I think the founder of that line was Oke Ewe (Ibae), who was an ahijado of Fela Mendez, the well known Puerto Rican Oni Chango who gave the first Obe/Cuchillo in the United States. La Rama de Los Millonarios was founded by a Rosala Gramosa, Efunsh Warikond (Ibae), according to the Oriate Miguel Ramos' web site. La Rama San Jose Ochenta (my line) was founded by a Margarita Armenteros, Aina (Ibae). There are other lines from Matanzas, and more from Havana.

This is really fascinating stuff. Afolabi, David Brown, Sim El, and the Oba Miguel Ramos seem to have an incredible amount of authoritative information regarding Lukumi lineages. By the way, I think the rama that OTR is referring to as "Funke" is actually the line founded by "Efuche / Efunshe." Respectfully, T-D. Se Alafia Ni! Olorisha greats, such as Mama Monserate, Ayai Latuan, Octavo Sama and others had paved the way to what now is known as Rama or Lineage. Originally, the Olorisha received only his Patron Orisha and Eleggua. As time past, the Olorisha began receiving additional Orishas. Ceremonial differences, pronunciation and the above has developed into different Ramas. This is why in some Ramas, for example, Aganyu is done directly or in other Ramas, Chango con Oro por Aganyu and in other Ramas, Ochun con Oro por Aganyu. Olorishas from two diferent Ramas can work together but respect and ceremonial acceptance is of utmost importance. Even within the larger Ramas such as my own, La Pimienta, the different Iles may perform things differently.

Se Alafia ni Oba Olorun, Okantomi and forun. Jose Urquiola (Echu Bi-Jose pata de Palo), was not the founder of los "Culos" Verdes", when he came to Habana this "Rama" was already stablish by other "elders", such people es "Marieta Gomez" (Odedei), Otogunwa, Obadimeji, Alabi, Obatiero, Ferminita gomez, Polinar Gonzalez and many many more that at this moment I don't remember their names. Originaly, and I believe that los Culos verdes where the first "Branch" (Rama stablish in Cuba), later own as the religion begine to grow and spread to Hanaba and other city them become to be the "Pimienta Rama" and also did not star with Algallu Tola (Aurora Lamar), actually it begine with the late "OMI TOKE" (Susana Cantero) and a group of other well none priests of those time, such name as "EchuBi" (Pepa). At this moment I an not given this information in an orderly manner, but I will get back to you own this one later own. The Rama the "Trapito" did not existed in Cuba, that particular branck took birth in the United State, by the late Ochun Funke. It came about in the late 1960 or early 1970 when she did and Elewua and instead of placing Elewua in the head with the clay pot, she wrapp Elewua in a red cloth and placed in the head in that manner (She was initiating Elewua at that time). From there own she continued to do every initiation in that manner. I will get back to you all in an orderly manner, such as who is who and wo did begine the first branches in cCuba and later own in the United State. Thank you all and let Elewua and Chango always guide votre steps. Oba Ecun/Omosayin.

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Cecilio Perez

Bendicion Oba Ecun: Did all of the ramas come from the Culo Verde? So a Belen Gonzalez "Apoto", the God parent of Jose Urquiola, wasn't among the founders of Culo Verde? I thought Kainde Apolinar Gonzalez, "Polo Ocha Weye" (Ibae), was born much later, no? I also remember reading someplace that Susana Cantero, Omi Toke (Ibae), was the granddaughter in Ocha of Efuche? This stuff is so confusing. There are so many different "histories" out there. Can you please tell us about Margarita Armenteros (Aina) and Tiburcia Sotolongo (Ochun Miwa)? I can't wait to read your next post. Respectfully, T-D. Cecilio, I come from the Susana Cantero branch. It's my understanding and recollection that her branch was called la "Rama del Coral y el Encaje". She was my grandmother's (Esperanzita la del Luna/Olomide) godmother and in turn my grandmother was Pancho Mora's godmother (he was my grandmother's cousin). I never heard that she came from the Pimienta branch. As a matter of fact my godfather in Ocha (also my uncle, Pablo Mora, he was called Papaito by everyone) was crowned Obatala (he died with 50 years of Ocha) by La Cubilla (she had Obatala crowned) and Susana Cantero was his Oyubona - he always said that Susana came from the Coral branch. In order to clarify this confusion, I'll ask some elders here in New York and in Cuba (my aunt she has Ochun crowned for over 50 years - was my grandmother's assistant and she also assisted Susana in many Ocha ceremonies) the lifestory of Susana Cantero. As far as I can remember from the many stories that I used to hear since I was a young girl, when Susana died in Cuba her daughter (who was not a believer in the Lukumi tradition) donated Susana's orishas to the museum in Cuba). As soon as I get more significant information, I'll share it with everyone. Regards,

Olomide
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Mothers, Fathers, Brothers, and Sisters : A friend sent me the web adress for Willie Ramos' website. It provides some history about his branch of Lukumi - Millionario. It also has some pictures of some of his elders plus information about the Lukumi faith. I have not had to time to look at the complete site, but from what I have read/seen so far, it is very well organized and informative. Thank you Mr. Ramos for creating such a website. I hope you all find it so as well. www.ilarioba.tripod.com/index

http://ilarioba.tripod.com/index.htm Many of the questions asked at the start of this thread have been answered very well, I can share some of what has been shared with me in my own pursuit of the answers to these questions in the hope that others will add more information or correct my mistakes. (TD- thanks for including me in good company, but the info I have is not authoritative. I have had the good fortune of having Willie Ramos & David Brown included among those who shared information with me). The question was asked: What are the different branches of Lukumi in Cuba ? A 1996 article in the Cuban publication "Prensa Latina" which included the Lucumi traditions in a discussion about religion in Cuba mentioned the following "ramas" or "branches" in Havana: Prensa Latina Especiale: Religion en Cuba, 1996 Ainayobo, Aldewaro, Aramito, Ashakun, Atun, Awapitico, Oddun Tawade, Tillako, Ochailu, Obbilumi, Imale, Oyatagun, Abbita, Aiworo, Efuche Warikondo, Efuche Atiqueque, Maleque la grande y Maleque la chica.

Descended from these, and other ramas, various "ramitas" or sub-branches have been formed. In some cases the name of the sub-branch is more well known than the older/parent branch. For example "Millonarios" from Efunche Warikondo. These later names are usually nicknames. There is at least one rama in the USA that got it's nickname in the USA, the "Piranhas". The question: Was that difference based on the different regions of Nigeria that the original founders came from ? ( I understand that from one region of Nigeria to another there will be differences in patakis, songs, etc.) As I understand it there were some regional differences. The people that are now called "Yoruba" and who were called "Lucumi" in Cuba, came from a variety of related groups - Egba, Ijebu, Egbado, Oyo, Ijessa, Nago, Ife, etc. Many of them joined cultural/religious organizations in Cuba called "Cabildos". These Cabildos, which were based on group affiliation (Oyo, Ijessa, etc.) formed the seed bed from which many of the branches grew. Equally important is the fact that there were individual differences. The knowledge, experience & odus that a specific elder had in their head was a part of their ashe & influenced some of the details of ritual. It was this ashe, and the ritual deatils passed to their omo (godchildren) that becomes part of the ashe of the rama. The godchildren will have their own knowledge & experience, but their ashe will grow by following the ritual details of their rama (branch). This is evident also among orisha worshippers in Nigeria where there may be ritual differences from one neighborhood to another in the same town. The question: How did the words "pimienta", "trapatito", "funke" etc. etc. get to be attached to those particular lines ? There were nicknames that became attached to a group, for example Susana Cantero (Omi Toki) was an omo Efunche, a descendent of Efunche (Ochossi). Those in her house were known for wearing coral beads so her omos (godchildren) were known as "La rama de coral". The question: Can priests from Pimienta work with those from Trapatito(sp?) or vice versa ?

Yes. In general iyalorishas & babalorishas from different ramas can work together thanks (in part) to the the development of general rules "reglas" that crossed house boundaries. These rules developed with the oriate system in Cuba in the 1920's - 1930's and form some of the reglas that we know as the "Regla de Ocha". These 2 ramas in particular Pimienta, & Trapito are both descended from Aurora Lamar, Oba Tola - iba ye. There may be those who differ with what I have written, & I welcome any additional information, even if it is different from what I have learned. I would be happy to hear more about the rama that I am a part of - Pimienta. Sim-El Fatunmishe Se Alafia Ni Sim El- Fatunmishe, That was a great post. As for the branch of Pimienta & Trapito, who are both descended from Aurora Lamar, Oba Tola (ibae) do you have any information as to who was Josefina Beltran? What branch she belonged to? I was told that Josefina Beltran, Olochunde (ibae) was part of the Trapito house however I was told that she was not by someone else. I was initiated in the TRAPITO house, cousin to PIMIENTA. Alafia Sim El, T-D, and OLU Forum: As a decendant of Ainayobo, I can only list the lineage as I have been told... Aina Yobo, Na Margarita Armenteros, Ibae, Ochun Miwa, Tiburcia Sotolongo, Ibae Eni Osun, Abelardo Becker, Ibae Shango Lari, Guiermina Montalvo, Ibae Ade Yeri, Candita Marquetti, Ibae Oya Tacquade, Nilda Santiago, Olo Oya Ade Okan, Nilda Martinez, Olo Obatala Oshun LaIbo, Paula Martinez, Olo Oshun Odulachemi, Alberta, Olo Obatala and then my goddaughter, Eni Osun, Toni, Olo Oshun I am always looking to learn more of this rama, so if anyone has any info, please add to it, especially of the traditions within the rama itself. Hi Okantomi ;-)

I just wanted to pop in here to give you a little info regarding your post... It's a common misconception that Na Belen Apoto initiated Jose Urquiola, Eshubi, but she didn't. Her goddaughter "La China" Silvestre, Oshun Miwa did. Talk to you soon honey, Afolabi Mr Oshun asked: "I was told that Josefina Beltran, Olochunde (ibae) was part of the Trapito house however I was told that she was not by someone else." Sorry I, don't have any sure information about Josefina Beltran, but I think I have heard her mentioned by people from the rama Coral (Susana Cantero's rama). Greetings Abures, In Havana there is also a Rama that does not take the Iyawo to the rio. They perform the ceremony at the river and bring back the water to the Ile to wash the iyawo. Does anyone know the real name of this branch and or it's history? Would appreciate any info on this rama. Some of the elders are "Rosa Maria Quintana" ibae & a lady that is still alive in Havana called Chango Lade. Thanks, Mpungo1 Greetings abures, There is a rama in havana that does not take the iyawo to the river. They bring the water back from the river to wash th iyawo. Does anyone know about this rama? Some of the elders are Rosa Maria Quintana, ibae and Chango Lade. Thanks, Mpungo1