KTR00063

ARMY CORPS OF ENGINEERS 8/6/2008
UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT 1

EASTERN DISTRICT OF LOUISIANA ALSO PRESENT IN ATTENDANCE CONTINUED:
2
3 GAINSBURGH, BENJAMIN, DAVID, MEUNIER &
IN RE: KATRINA CANAL BREACHES CIVIL ACTION WARSHAUER
CONSOLIDATED LITIGATION 4 (BY: GERALD E. MEUNIER, ESQ.)
NO. 05-4182 1100 Poydras Street
and Consolidated Cases 5 Suite 2800
"K" (2) New Orleans, Louisiana 70163
JUDGE DUVAL 6 ATTORNEYS FOR PLAINTIFFS
7
MAG. WILKINSON LAW OFFICE OF DANIEL E. BECNEL
---------------------------------------------- 8 (BY: DANIEL E. BECNEL, JR., ESQ.)
ROBINSON CIVIL ACTION 425 West Airline Highway
NO. 05-4182 9 Suite B
VERSUS LaPlace, Louisiana 70068
10 ATTORNEYS FOR PLAINTIFFS
THE UNITED STATES 11
F. GERALD MAPLES, PA
12 (BY: TODD CAMPBELL, ESQ.)
902 Julia Street
13 New Orleans, Louisiana 70113
VIDEOTAPED 30 (b)(6) DEPOSITION OF ATTORNEYS FOR PLAINTIFFS
UNITED STATES ARMY CORPS OF ENGINEERS 14
by 15 FAYARD & HONEYCUTT
WALTER O. BAUMY, JR., (BY: CALVIN FAYARD, ESQ.)
ALFRED CHARLES NAOMI, 16 506 Florida Blvd.
NANCY JEAN POWELL, Denham Springs, Louisiana 70726
and 17 ATTORNEYS FOR PLAINTIFFS
KEITH JOSEPH O'CAIN, 18
given in the offices of Lambert & Nelson, 701 DUPLASS, ZWAIN, BOURGEOIS, MORTON,
Magazine Street, New Orleans, Louisiana 70130 19 PFISTER & WEINSTOCK
on Wednesday, November 14, 2007 and Thursday, (BY: GARY ZWAIN, ESQ.
November 15, 2007. 20 JOSEPH E. BEARDEN, ESQ.)
Suite 2900
21 3838 North Causeway Boulevard
Metairie, Louisiana 70002
22 ATTORNEYS FOR THE BOARD OF
COMMISSIONERS FOR THE LAKE BORGNE
23 BASIN LEVEE DISTRICT
24
25
Page 1 Page 3
1 APPEARANCES: 1
2 O'DONNELL & ASSOCIATES ALSO PRESENT IN ATTENDANCE (CONTINUED):
(BY: PIERCE O'DONNELL, ESQ.) 2
3 Suite 1000 3 STONE PIGMAN WALTHER WITTMANN
550 Hope Street (BY: HEATHER LONIAN, ESQ.
4 Los Angeles, California 90071-2627 4 WILLIAM D. TREEBY, ESQ.)
ATTORNEYS FOR ROBINSON PLAINTIFFS 546 Carondelet Street
5 5 New Orleans, Louisiana 70130-3588
6 ATTORNEYS FOR WASHINGTON GROUP
UNITED STATES DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE 6 INTERNATIONAL, INC.
7 TORTS BRANCH, CIVIL DIVISION 7
(BY: ROBIN D. SMITH, ESQ.) MCCRANIE, SISTRUNK, ANZELMO, HARDY,
8 Room 8095N 8 MAXWELL & MCDANIEL
1331 Pennsylvania Avenue NW (BY: THOMAS P. ANZELMO, ESQ.)
9 Washington, D.C. 20530 9 Suite 800
ATTORNEYS FOR UNITED STATES 3445 North Causeway Blvd.
10 10 Metairie, Louisiana 70002
11 LAW OFFICES OF JOSEPH M. BRUNO ATTORNEYS FOR THE BOARD OF
(BY: JOSEPH M. BRUNO, ESQ.) 11 COMMISSIONERS FOR THE ORLEANS LEVEE
12 FLORIAN BUCHLER, ESQ.) DISTRICT
855 Baronne Street
12
13 New Orleans, Louisiana 70113
13 BURGLASS & TANKERSLEY
PLAINTIFF LIAISON COUNSEL (BY: MONICA WALDRON, ESQ.)
14 14 5213 Airline Drive
15 ANDRY LAW FIRM Metairie, Louisiana 70001
15 ATTORNEYS FOR JEFFERSON PARISH
(BY: JONATHAN B. ANDRY, ESQ.)
16
16 610 Baronne St.
DEGAN, BLANCHARD & NASH
New Orleans, Louisiana 70113
17 (BY: DAVID DYER, ESQ.
17 ATTORNEYS FOR PLAINTIFFS
18 FRANK LUPO, ESQ.)
18 Suite 2600
19
400 Poydras Street
------------------------------- 19 New Orleans, Louisiana 70130
20
ATTORNEYS FOR OC CORPS
ALSO PRESENT IN ATTENDANCE: 20
21 21 CHAFFE, MCCALL
LAMBERT & NELSON (BY: PARKER HARRISON, ESQ.)
22 (BY: LINDA NELSON, ESQ. 22 Suite 2300 Energy Centre
701 Magazine Street 1100 Poydras Street
23 New Orleans, Louisiana 70130 23 New Orleans, Louisiana 70163
ATTORNEYS FOR THE PLAINTIFFS ATTORNEYS FOR LAFARGE NORTH AMERICA
24 24
25 25
Page 2 Page 4
1 (Pages 1 to 4)
Johns Pendleton Court Reporters 504 219-1993
1 ALSO PRESENT IN ATTENDANCE (CONTINUED): 1 EXHIBIT INDEX

2 2 PAGE
3 {Reporter's Note: Attached as an exhibit, per
3 GOODWIN, PROCTER 4 Mr. Brian Gilbert, BARGE Plaintiff Subgroup
(BY: ADAM M. CHUD, ESQ.) 5 Litigation Committee, November 5, 2007 "Notice
4 901 New York Avenue NW 6 of Objections to Robinson Plaintiffs' Experts'
Washington, D.C. 20001 7 Depositions, and Reservation of Rights}
5 ATTORNEYS FOR LAFARGE NORTH AMERICA 8
9 Exhibit 1.................................. 16
6
U.S. 702-C Exhibit Number 2................ 29
CHRISTOVICH & KEARNEY 10 Number 3................................... 30
7 (BY: CHARLES M. LANIER, JR., ESQ.) Exhibit 4.................................. 91
601 Poydras Street 11 Exhibit 5.................................. 98
8 Suite 2300 Number 6.................................. 104
12 Exhibit 1................................. 112
New Orleans, Louisiana 70130 Number 7.................................. 113
9 ATTORNEYS FOR SEWERAGE & WATER BOARD 13 Number 8.................................. 114
OF NEW ORLEANS Number 8.................................. 137
10 14 Exhibit 9................................. 137
11 ADAMS & REESE Exhibit Number 10......................... 138
15 Exhibit Number 11......................... 140
(BY: JENNIFER LABOURDETT, ESQ.) Exhibit 12................................ 153
12 4500 One Shell Square 16 Exhibit 13................................ 193
New Orleans, Louisiana Exhibit 14................................ 212
13 ATTORNEYS FOR CORPS OF ENGINEERS 17 Number 15................................. 218
14 Number 16................................. 248
15 18 Exhibit 17................................ 255
Exhibit Number 18......................... 286
VIDEOTAPED BY: John Wadsworth, Hart Video of 19 Exhibit Number 19......................... 286
16 Louisiana Exhibit 20................................ 288
17 20 Exhibit 21................................ 298
18 REPORTED BY: ROGER D. JOHNS, RMR, CRR, CSR 22........................................ 301
21 Exhibit 23................................ 302
Certified Court Reporter,
Exhibit 24................................ 306
19 State of Louisiana 22 25........................................ 314
20 26........................................ 319
21 23 Exhibit 27................................ 331
22 Exhibit 28................................ 333
23 24 Exhibit 29................................ 340
Exhibit 30................................ 344
24 25 31........................................ 348
25 Exhibit 32................................ 354
Page 5 Page 7
E X H I B I T I N D E X (CONTINUED)
1 STIPULATION 1
PAGE
2 2 33........................................ 357
Exhibit Number 34......................... 360
3 It is stipulated and agreed by and between 3 35........................................ 362
Number 36................................. 364
4 counsel for the parties hereto 4 Exhibit 37................................ 365
Exhibit 38................................ 374
5 that the deposition of the aforementioned 5 39........................................ 375
6 witness is hereby being taken under the 40........................................ 375
6 Exhibit 41................................ 376
7 Federal Rules of Civil Procedure, 30 (b)(6), 42........................................ 376
7 Exhibit 43................................ 377
8 for all purposes, in accordance with law; Exhibit 44................................ 379
45........................................ 381
9 That the formalities of reading and 8
Exhibit 46................................ 382
10 signing are specifically not waived; 9 Exhibit 47................................ 385
Number 48................................. 388
11 That the formalities of certification and 10 Exhibit 49................................ 391
Exhibit 50................................ 399
12 filing are specifically waived; 11 Number 51................................. 402
Exhibit 52................................ 406
13 That all objections, save those as to the 12 53........................................ 411
14 form of the question and the responsiveness of 13
Exhibit 54................................ 415
Exhibit 55................................ 416
15 the answer, are hereby reserved until such Exhibit 56................................ 417
14 57........................................ 418
16 time as this deposition, or any part thereof, 58.........................................420
59........................................ 421
may be used or sought to be used in evidence.
15
17 60........................................ 424
18 16 Number 61................................. 425
Number 62................................. 426
19 * * * * 17 Exhibit Number 63......................... 428
Exhibit 64................................ 474
20 18 Exhibit 65................................ 503
Exhibit 66................................ 507
21 ROGER D. JOHNS, RDR, CRR, Certified Court 19 67........................................ 510
22 Reporter for the State of Louisiana, 20
Exhibit Number 68......................... 514
Exhibit Number 69......................... 514
23 officiated in administering the oath to the 21
22
24 witness. 23
24
25 25
Page 6 Page 8
2 (Pages 5 to 8)
1 INDEX OF TESTIMONY BY WITNESS 1 MR. O'DONNELL:

2 2 First of all, you guys aren't
3 *** NOVEMBER 14, 2007 *** 3 participating in this deposition. So
4 PAGE 4 you're welcome to observe, okay? This
5 5 is the United States and the Robinson
6 TESTIMONY BY WALTER O. BAUMY, JR........... 16 6 Plaintiffs, so nobody else can speak.
7 EXAMINATION BY MR. O'DONNELL:.............. 16 7 Okay? It's only for Robinson. We
8 8 have a stipulation. I don't mean to
9 TESTIMONY BY ALFRED CHARLES NAOMI......... 112 9 be difficult, but that's the truth.
10 EXAMINATION BY MR. O'DONNELL:............. 112 10 MR. ZWAIN:
11 11 I understand that.
12 12 MR. O'DONNELL:
13 *** NOVEMBER 15, 2007 *** 13 Robin, why don't you state the
14 14 terms of the deposition.
15 RESUMPTION OF TESTIMONY BY ALFRED CHARLES 15 MR. SMITH:
16 NAOMI......................................357 16 Yes. This is a 30 (b)(6)
17 EXAMINATION BY MR. O'DONNELL:............. 357 17 deposition of the United States,
18 18 deposition of the United States under
19 19 Rule 30 (b)(6) of the Federal Rules of
20 NANCY JEAN POWELL......................... 435 20 Civil Procedure. This applies to the
21 EXAMINATION BY MR. O'DONNELL:............. 435 21 Robinson case with respect to 702-C
22 22 issues which have been identified in
23 KEITH JOSEPH O'CAIN....................... 485 23 the Plaintiff's Notice of Deposition.
24 EXAMINATION BY MR. O'DONNELL:............. 485 24 My name is Robin Smith and I
25 25 represent the United States.
Page 9 Page 11
1 MR. O'DONNELL: 1 VIDEO OPERATOR:

2 This is Pierce O'Donnell for the 2 We are located at 701 Magazine
3 Plaintiffs, Robinson. I'll be doing 3 Street, New Orleans, Louisiana. The
4 the examination. 4 date is November 14, 2007.
5 VIDEO OPERATOR: 5 My name is John Wadsworth
6 This is the deposition of Walter 6 representing Hart Video of Louisiana.
7 Baumy taken on behalf of the Katrina 7 The Court Reporter is Roger Johns of
8 Canal Breaches Consolidated. We are 8 Johns Pendleton & Associates.
9 at the office -- 9 Would Counsel please introduce
10 MR. O'DONNELL: 10 themselves.
11 No, that's not correct. This is 11 MR. O'DONNELL:
12 only the MRGO litigation, Robinson. 12 I am Pierce O'Donnell along with
13 MR. SMITH: 13 Joe Bruno and Jon Andry representing
14 This is not a deposition of Mr. 14 the Robinson Plaintiffs.
15 Baumy. This is a 30 (b)(6) deposition 15 MR. SMITH:
16 of the United States. 16 And again, my name is Robin
17 MR. ZWAIN: 17 Smith. I represent the United
18 It's not Mr. Baumy. It's 18 States.
19 Robinson. 19 MR. DYER:
20 MR. O'DONNELL: 20 David Dyer, Office of Counsel for
21 It's Robinson. 21 the Corps.
22 MR. BRUNO: 22 MR. LUPO:
23 First, it's not an individual 23 Frank Lupo, Office of Counsel for
24 deposition. It's -- Perhaps what we 24 the Corps.
25 can do is have -- 25 MR. ZWAIN:
Page 10 Page 12
3 (Pages 9 to 12)
1 I'm Gary Zwain. I represent the 1 Counsel in the levee cases.

2 Lake Borgne Levee District in the MRGO 2 MS. NELSON:
3 litigation, and I am attending but not 3 Linda Nelson of Lambert and
4 participating as per agreement. 4 Nelson on behalf of Plaintiffs in the
5 MR. ANDRY: 5 levee cases.
6 My name is Tommy Anzelmo. I 6 MS. LONIAN:
7 represent the Orleans Levee District 7 Heather Lonian on behalf of
8 and I am observing but not 8 Washington Group International in the
9 participating in the deposition. 9 MRGO consolidated cases. I'm also
10 MR. BRUNO: 10 here to observe.
11 Who's next? 11 MR. CAMPBELL:
12 MS. HARRISON: 12 Todd Campbell with Gerald Maples,
13 Parker Harrison on behalf of 13 just here to observe.
14 Lafarge North America. 14 MR. LANIER:
15 If I may, the deposition notice 15 Charlie Lanier here on behalf of
16 states that this deposition is solely 16 New Orleans Sewerage and Water Board,
17 for purposes of the flood control 17 here to observe.
18 immunity issues in the Robinson case. 18 MS. WALDRON:
19 Lafarge North America has agreed to 19 Monica Waldron on behalf of
20 participate to avoid duplicative 20 Jefferson Parish, here to observe.
21 discovery on the issues covered by the 21 VIDEO OPERATOR:
22 deposition. 22 Would the Court Reporter please
23 MR. CHUD: 23 swear in the witness.
24 Adam Chud on behalf of Lafarge. 24 30 (b)(6) DEPOSITION OF THE UNITED STATES
25 MR. BRUNO: 25 CORPS OF ENGINEERS
Page 13 Page 15
1 Agree to participate? I'm 1 TESTIMONY BY

2 sorry. I'm sorry. 2 WALTER O. BAUMY, JR.,
3 MR. O'DONNELL: 3 203 Reiher Road, Mandeville, Louisiana 70471,
4 No, we have not agreed that 4 after having been duly sworn by the
5 you're participating. 5 before-mentioned court reporter, did testify
6 MR. BRUNO: 6 as follows:
7 You're not participating. 7 EXAMINATION BY MR. O'DONNELL:
8 MS. HARRISON: 8 Q. Good morning, Mr. Baumy. How are
9 We're not asking any questions. 9 you today?
10 MR. SMITH: 10 A. Okay.
11 Just so the record is clear, we 11 Q. I appreciate your coming here and I
12 have agreed that you can appear but 12 will try not to take too much of your time.
13 not participate, and that's by 13 MR. O'DONNELL:
14 agreement between us and Lafarge. 14 Robin, let's mark as Exhibit 1
15 MR. O'DONNELL: 15 the revised notice of the 30 (b)(6)
16 But if you have any brilliant 16 deposition so we're all on the same
17 questions, I'll be happy to receive 17 page.
18 them. Thank you. 18 Would you mark this as the
19 MS. HARRISON: 19 Exhibit 1 for the Baumy dep- -- for
20 Noted. 20 the -- I'm going to call it the 30 (b)
21 MR. CHUD: 21 -- I'm going to call it the Army
22 Adam Chud on behalf of Lafarge. 22 Corps deposition --
23 MR. MEUNIER: 23 MR. SMITH:
24 Gerry Meunier here to observe in 24 Why don't we call it the United
25 my capacity as Plaintiff's Liaison 25 States 702-C deposition.
Page 14 Page 16
4 (Pages 13 to 16)
1 MR. O'DONNELL: 1 Q. Do you have any background in

2 Right. And since we'll be using 2 geotechnical engineering?
3 three witnesses, we'll just go 1 3 A. Not as a designer.
4 through whatever. Okay, Robin? 4 Q. Okay. Fine. And just very briefly
5 MR. SMITH: 5 tell me the positions you have held at the
6 Yes. 6 Corps since you went full time in '77.
7 MR. O'DONNELL: 7 A. Okay. I worked in the Structural
8 Okay. Great. 8 Design Group from -- until 1994, from my
9 (Whereupon a discussion was held 9 start, went through initial ten month training
10 off the record.) 10 program, then went to the Structure Design
11 EXAMINATION BY MR. O'DONNELL: 11 Group; served as a designer, then a senior
12 Q. Mr. Baumy, I have put before you the 12 designer, then a supervisor within that group.
13 revised notice that the United States' 13 Q. Let me ask you briefly, what does
14 Counsel, Mr. Smith, and I agreed upon. Have 14 the Structural Design Group do?
15 you seen this before? 15 A. Structural engineering for major
16 A. Yes, I have. 16 projects. Could be a lock and dam or could be
17 Q. And I understand that you will be 17 a floodwall. Could be a control structure, a
18 responding to the questions I have with regard 18 drainage structure, anything -- anything that
19 to paragraph number 1 on page 2. Is that 19 involves a concrete or steel structure.
20 fair? 20 Q. Okay. Great. Did you work on the
21 A. Yes. 21 Chalmette area plan?
22 Q. Okay. Great. I just want a very 22 A. No, sir.
23 basic background. How are you employed? 23 Q. Okay. Now, or the -- I'm going to
24 A. I'm employed by the U.S. Army Corps 24 work out the terminology with you in a
25 of Engineers. 25 second. How about the New Orleans East Levee
Page 17 Page 19
1 Q. And what's your position? 1 project under the Lake Pontchartrain and
2 A. Chief of Engineering Division. 2 Vicinity Hurricane Protection Act or the Flood
3 Q. For the New Orleans District? 3 Control Act of 1965? Did you work on any of
4 A. Yes, sir. 4 those structures?
5 Q. How long have you held that 5 A. Okay. You lost me a little bit on
6 position? 6 your question. You started with New Orleans
7 A. Since December of 2002. 7 East --
8 Q. How long have you worked for the 8 Q. Let's go back. In October, 1965
9 Corps? 9 Congress passed, the President signed, the
10 A. Oh, I started in '74 as a part time 10 Flood Control Act of 1965. You're generally
11 student, but my official start date full time 11 familiar with that?
12 is January, '77. 12 A. Generally.
13 Q. Okay. 1977. Has it all been in the 13 Q. That's all I need, is general.
14 New Orleans District? 14 A. Not details.
15 A. Yes. 15 Q. And that Act authorized certain
16 Q. Okay. And do you hold any degrees? 16 flood structures to be designed in greater New
17 A. Yes, I do. 17 Orleans. Will you accept that?
18 Q. What are they? 18 A. Yes.
19 A. B.S. from the University of New 19 Q. Okay. Did you work on any of those
20 Orleans in civil engineering and a Master's of 20 structures?
21 engineering from Tulane University. 21 A. I -- I worked on London Avenue
22 Q. Do you have any specialty in your 22 structures and the butterfly valve structure
23 Master's area? 23 out there also.
24 A. Civil engineering, structural. 24 Q. Okay. And the butterfly valve was
25 Structural work. 25 on London Avenue?
Page 18 Page 20
5 (Pages 17 to 20)
1 A. On London Avenue. 1 three basic offices. One was the bank

2 Q. Other than London Avenue and its 2 stabilization of the Mississippi River. The
3 butterfly valve, did you do any other work 3 other group was predominantly dredging and
4 under the Flood Control Act? 4 wetlands creation or restoration.
5 A. I worked on the floodwalls for 5 Q. Dredging of the MRGO?
6 London Avenue. 6 A. Yes.
7 Q. The floodwalls? Okay. Anything 7 Q. And the wet- -- I'm sorry, go
8 else? 8 ahead. Forgive me.
9 A. Not as a structural engineer. I 9 A. Well, MRGO and other areas. That's
10 worked in the rebuilding aspects after the 10 all I was going to add to that.
11 hurricane and I worked in all the areas that 11 Q. Okay. What other areas?
12 were damaged. 12 A. Mississippi River, GIWW, possibly
13 Q. That's Project Guardian; right? 13 other -- any of the waterways where we use
14 A. Yes. 14 particular types of dredging.
15 Q. I am not going to ask you much about 15 Q. IHNC?
16 that. 16 A. I don't recall that.
17 A. Okay. 17 Q. Okay. The third was wetlands
18 Q. So now we have you up to 1994 in the 18 restoration?
19 Structural Design Group, advancing through the 19 A. Yes.
20 group. What did you do after 1994? 20 Q. And how long were you the Branch
21 A. I moved to what we call a Section 21 Chief of the Civil Branch?
22 Chief's position in the General Engineering 22 A. About two and a half years. We also
23 Branch, and I had three basic groups there. 23 had design of levees in that group. That was
24 One was the Periodic Inspection Group that 24 the third office.
25 inspected mostly Corps owned structures, but 25 Q. Did that include any structures
Page 21 Page 23
1 some local interest structures; I had an 1 under the Flood Control Act of '65?
2 Environmental Group that dealt with HTRW and 2 A. We had active projects. I don't
3 support for other organizations. 3 recall if we actually constructed anything in
4 Q. HTRW? 4 those areas at that time.
5 A. Hazardous, toxic, radioactive, waste 5 Q. When did you take on another job?
6 type situations or projects. Some Superfund 6 A. December, 2002 I took over the Chief
7 projects we actually worked on. And my last 7 of Engineering position.
8 item there was what we call the General Design 8 Q. And what are your responsibilities
9 Group, which was support to Operations, and 9 as the Chief Engineer?
10 that could include guide walls along the 10 A. Programmatic. Oversight of the
11 locks, buildings, anything they wanted to -- 11 engineering program. Personnel,
12 anything damaged or improvements. And also 12 organizational management of the workforce.
13 some remedial work, some maintenance work 13 We have approximately 250 to 300 employees
14 along the MRGO with the foreshore dikes. 14 depending on how full we are at particular
15 And we also did some work 15 times.
16 associated with the QUIPR program in creating 16 Q. So anything of an engineering nature
17 marsh. 17 being done in the New Orleans District that
18 Q. How long were you the Section Chief 18 you were the Chief Engineer on?
19 of Generally Engineering? 19 A. I don't understand.
20 A. About five and a half years. 20 Q. Withdrawn. Were there activities in
21 Q. To about 2000? 21 the New Orleans District that the Chief
22 A. Right around 2000, yes. 22 Engineer is not responsible for from 2000
23 Q. And after that? 23 through the present?
24 A. I moved to what we call Civil Branch 24 A. From an engineering perspective?
25 as the Branch Chief. And in that job I had 25 Q. Yes.
Page 22 Page 24
6 (Pages 21 to 24)
1 A. No. 1 you, okay, and it indicates that you have

2 Q. To whom do you report? 2 participated on several HQS committees. What
3 A. The Colonel of the District. 3 are HQS committees?
4 Q. And who is that now? 4 A. Headquarters.
5 A. Colonel Lee, Alvin Lee. 5 Q. For the Army Corps?
6 Q. Great. Okay. Super. 6 A. Yes.
7 Now, you have been designated for 7 Q. That's national headquarters?
8 topic number 1, which I'll just read into the 8 A. Yes.
9 record. "The standards and criteria for the 9 Q. Committees to prepare certain
10 construction of levees between 1965 and the 10 manuals; is that correct?
11 present, including, but not limited to, 1, 11 A. Yes.
12 written standards, manuals, or guidelines 12 Q. One of them is engineering manual
13 maintained or published by the United States 13 110-2-2906, Design and installation of pile
14 Army Corps of Engineers during this time 14 foundations. Is that correct?
15 period and any and all changes, modifications, 15 A. Yes.
16 or amendments to such written standards, 16 Q. Did you review that for today?
17 manuals or guidelines." You understand that's 17 A. No, I did not.
18 what I will be talking about this morning? 18 Q. And then it also says you helped
19 A. Yes. 19 participate on the HQS Committee in
20 Q. Great. What, if anything, did you 20 preparation of engineering manual 110-2-2504.
21 do to prepare for testifying today? I just 21 Is that correct?
22 need a very brief overview. And I don't want 22 A. Yes.
23 any substantive conversations with your 23 Q. And that one is Strength design
24 Counsel. Basically what did you read or 24 criteria for reinforced concrete hydraulic
25 review or talk to colleagues about? 25 structures. Is that correct?
Page 25 Page 27
1 A. I looked over several binders of 1 A. Not on my list. I have got 2504 is

2 documents and I -- I pulled up a few of the 2 design of sheet pile walls, and both of those
3 documents and glanced over them. I mean, in 3 would be correct.
4 time I had, I could only do a cursory review 4 Q. Okay. Thank you. And then there's
5 of the material. 5 an indication that you also worked on --
6 Q. Because you have a day job; right? 6 Okay. 1110-2-2504 is the sheet pile walls
7 A. Sure do. 7 design?
8 Q. Okay. Let me ask you this 8 A. Yes.
9 question. What manuals did you recall -- do 9 Q. It also says you helped prepare the
10 you recall looking at? 10 civil works guide specification, quote,
11 A. Can I pull out my list here? 11 "Manufacture and installation of prestressed
12 Q. Oh, yes, that will be fine. 12 concrete piles," unquote. Is that correct?
13 A. See what I -- 13 A. Yes.
14 I looked at EM19 -- 1110-2-1913, 14 Q. Maybe you can solve this mystery for
15 Design and construction of levees. I looked 15 me. Can you explain the coding where there's
16 at the current version and then I looked at a 16 a "110", then there's a "-2", and then
17 couple of earlier versions. 17 there's four numbers?
18 Q. We'll be going over those. Great. 18 A. Not clearly.
19 Super. 19 MR. SMITH:
20 A. Let me see. Briefly glanced over 20 1110? You mean 1110?
21 EM1110-2-1411, Standard project flood 21 MR. O'DONNELL:
22 determinations. And very quickly glanced at 22 If I misspoke, I meant 1110. Did
23 the Coastal Engineering Manual. 23 I say 110? Yes, that's a freeway to
24 Q. I have a publication off the 24 Pasadena.
25 Internet from Tulane which has a little bio on 25 THE WITNESS:
Page 26 Page 28
7 (Pages 25 to 28)
1 I could tell you what I believe 1 all?

2 it represents, but I don't know 2 A. No. Not at all.
3 exactly. 3 Q. Okay. Thank you. We'll put that in
4 EXAMINATION BY MR. O'DONNELL: 4 the pile.
5 Q. Give me your best -- Yes. 5 Let's look at Exhibit Number 3. I
6 A. I think it's representing civil 6 am going to hold it up for everybody so they
7 works design guidance. 7 can see what it is.
8 Q. 1110 indicates civil works? 8 Can you identify that --
9 A. Well, the 1110-2 combination. I 9 A. Yes.
10 don't know it well enough to -- to really say 10 Q. -- for me?
11 it with conviction. 11 A. That's EM --
12 Q. Since you have been at the Corps, 12 Q. I'm sorry, this is Number 2.
13 has the 1110-2 numbering been used? 13 Forgive me. Number 2.
14 A. Yes, but there's other numbering 14 A. EM1110-2-1913, dated 31 March, 1978
15 that's used also. 15 with a title "Engineering and design, design
16 Q. Okay. What is that numbering? 16 and construction of levees".
17 A. Well, there's an 1110-1. And 17 Q. Is it fair to assume from the date
18 there's a variety of -- I have got 200, 18 in the upper right corner that was the date of
19 500-1. 19 issue?
20 Q. Okay. Let me show you -- 20 A. Yes.
21 MR. O'DONNELL: 21 Q. 31 March, 1978?
22 Mark this U.S. 702-C Exhibit 22 A. (Witness nods head affirmatively.)
23 Number 2. 23 Q. Okay. This is an official
24 Do you mind if I mark as an 24 publication or promulgation of the U.S. Army
25 exhibit that document you just read 25 Corps of Engineers?
Page 29 Page 31
1 from? Is that okay? 1 A. Yes.

2 MR. SMITH: 2 Q. And what is the purpose of this
3 Yes. 3 document, sir?
4 MR. O'DONNELL: 4 A. Provides guidance to the field for
5 Why don't we mark this first 5 implementing projects, the design and
6 Number 2 -- make it Number 3. We'll 6 construction of particular projects.
7 just mark it. We'll copy it later. 7 Q. Okay. Let's go to page -- the
8 (Whereupon a discussion was held 8 second page of the document. It's not
9 off the record.) 9 numbered as such, but do you have that, sir?
10 EXAMINATION BY MR. O'DONNELL: 10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Before I get to Number 2, sir, would 11 Q. And it's signed by a fellow named
12 you identify Exhibit Number 2 for me? Right 12 James N. Ellis, Colonel, Corps of Engineers,
13 there. It's your list. Your list. 13 Executive Director and Engineers Staff. And
14 MR. SMITH: 14 by '78 you were -- were you at the Corps by
15 Well, this is 3. 15 then?
16 EXAMINATION BY MR. O'DONNELL: 16 A. Yes, I was.
17 Q. I misspoke. Number 3. Would you 17 Q. Okay. Were you familiar with this
18 identify that for me? 18 document when it was issued?
19 A. This is just a -- printed off a 19 A. No.
20 Corps Headquarters website that says "Engineer 20 Q. Okay. Have you ever used this
21 manuals" as the title. 21 document?
22 Q. And these are -- you looked at some 22 A. No.
23 of the manuals in there that you indicated? 23 Q. Okay. So why are you here? No, I'm
24 A. Yes. 24 just kidding.
25 Q. I take it you didn't look at them 25 A. I can leave.
Page 30 Page 32
8 (Pages 29 to 32)
1 Q. You were really caught in the 1 Q. Would you just read the first
2 hallway by Robin Smith. 2 sentence for me? I want to ask you a couple
3 I want to ask you a few questions 3 of questions about it.
4 about this. 4 A. Okay. "The term 'levee' as used
5 A. Yeah. 5 herein is defined as an embankment whose
6 Q. Can you tell me under what 6 primary purpose is to furnish flood protection
7 circumstances -- Withdrawn. Does the manual, 7 from seasonal high water and which is,
8 and when I refer to "the manual" I am 8 therefore, subject to water loading for
9 referring to the one in front of you, Exhibit 9 periods of only a few days or weeks a year."
10 Number 2. Does the design and construction of 10 Q. Read the next sentence, too, if you
11 levees manual, the 1978 version, tell the 11 would, please.
12 field under what circumstances this manual 12 A. "Embankments that are subject to
13 should be followed when you're dealing with 13 water loading for prolonged periods,"
14 construction of earth levees? 14 parentheses, "longer than normal flood
15 A. Well, I think it will say that it 15 protection requirements, or permanently,
16 applies to all civil works projects, and 16 should be designed in accordance with earth
17 that's provided as guidance, but to the field 17 dam criteria rather than the levee criteria
18 for implementing those projects, but it's not 18 given herein."
19 meant to replace the judgment of the engineers 19 Q. Okay. Do you know what seasonal
20 or particular site conditions that you may 20 high water is?
21 encounter. 21 A. I don't know if I have a precise
22 Q. And that's summarized in point 3 on 22 definition for it, but I think they are
23 page 2 right, under "General"? 23 referring to flooding associated with maybe --
24 A. Yes. 24 in my area of the woods, I would relate the
25 Q. "This manual is intended as a guide 25 Mississippi River to seasonal flooding. You
Page 33 Page 35
1 for designing and constructing levees and not 1 know, you have a flood season.
2 intended to replace the judgment of design 2 Q. Okay. Where the water is higher
3 engineer on a particular project"? 3 than normal?
4 A. Yes. 4 A. Yes. And stays there for some
5 Q. And that's sort of a coda or general 5 period of time.
6 rule for all of these manuals that the Corps 6 Q. Okay. Do you know whether the
7 issues; correct? 7 definition of "levee" in 1-A, the first
8 A. Yes. 8 sentence, deals with hurricane flood
9 Q. Let's go to page 1-2 if you would, 9 protection?
10 please. I'm sorry, 1-1. And to the extent 10 MR. SMITH:
11 there's handwriting on the document, I 11 I'm sorry, Pierce, you said
12 apologize. That's my handwriting. 12 "1-A". You mean "A-1"?
13 MR. O'DONNELL: 13 MR. O'DONNELL:
14 And I will stipulate, Robin, it 14 I meant A-1. Forgive me.
15 was not part of the original. Okay? 15 EXAMINATION BY MR. O'DONNELL:
16 MR. SMITH: 16 Q. The first sentence you read to me,
17 Agreed. 17 okay?
18 MR. O'DONNELL: 18 A. Uh-huh (affirmatively).
19 Okay. Or underlining. 19 Q. "To furnish flood protection from
20 EXAMINATION BY MR. O'DONNELL: 20 seasonal high water," et cetera, does that
21 Q. You see under 1-5, "General 21 apply to hurricane flood protection or
22 considerations", A, "General", in number 1 22 something else? Or both?
23 there's a definition of "levee". Do you see 23 A. That's difficult for me to answer.
24 that? 24 I -- I don't think there is an engineering
25 A. Uh-huh (affirmatively), yes. 25 manual on levees for hurricane protection. So
Page 34 Page 36
9 (Pages 33 to 36)
1 I would defer back to this manual as general 1 it.

2 guidance and again use that engineering 2 Q. Okay. Well, it says "adjacent to
3 judgment and interpretation as to when the 3 the levee". Let me go on. Then says "which
4 conditions apply and when they don't apply. 4 produce fill material that is often
5 Q. Okay. There is a reference in the 5 heterogeneous and far from ideal". Do you
6 second sentence to using earth dam criteria 6 know what they mean by "far from ideal"?
7 when there's water loading on the embankment 7 A. Ideal for placement in the section
8 for prolonged periods, and you read the 8 is one way that you could look at that. When
9 parentheses, "longer than normal flood 9 you're pulling material out of any borrow pit,
10 protection requirements". Can you tell me 10 it's going -- the water content is going to
11 what normal flood protection is? 11 vary, so it may be very wet and you really
12 A. I can only tell you what I think 12 can't compact it when it's very wet
13 they mean. I mean, I don't know what they 13 efficiently, so you have to process it or you
14 specifically meant in writing this, but I 14 place it wet. There's various techniques.
15 would envision an earth dam as something that 15 Q. In fact, the next sentence says "The
16 would -- could have water against it for a 16 selection of the levee section is often based
17 very long period of time. Could be permanent 17 on the properties of the porous material that
18 or it could be several months out of the year 18 must be used." Do you see that? The last
19 in relation to just a few days or several 19 sentence?
20 weeks. So it's a longer period of time. 20 A. Not yet. Yes, I see it.
21 Q. Okay. Whereas, flooding from a 21 Q. What does that mean?
22 breach in a levee on the Mississippi River or, 22 A. That means you -- what you -- you
23 say, during a hurricane would not be 23 would establish a soil investigate program,
24 considered a prolonged period of time? It 24 determine the general properties of the
25 might be a matter of hours or a day? 25 material based upon a review of the available
Page 37 Page 39
1 A. Certainly for a hurricane it could 1 data, then you would come up with design
2 be just a matter of hours or a day. 2 properties; and those design properties would
3 Q. But for a river, it's as long as it 3 be reflective of somewhat of a conservative
4 takes to fix the breach; right? 4 nature.
5 A. No. Well, I don't think it's 5 Q. So you determine, just in essence,
6 referring to a breach. I think they're 6 you determine the nature of the soils that
7 referring to the nature of how long the water 7 were used and then design the structure
8 -- the levee is required to hold back the 8 appropriate for that kind of, say, --
9 water at those elevated elevations. 9 A. Yes.
10 Q. How long the water is loaded at the 10 Q. -- high water content soil or
11 higher elevations? 11 whatever; right?
12 A. Yes. 12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Got you. Okay. Great. 13 Q. Okay. Great. Page 1-2 has Table
14 In number 2, A-2, they talk about 14 1-1, "General design procedure", and I
15 the similarities and differences between an 15 understand that those are the recommended
16 earth dam and a levee. Do you see that? 16 steps to follow in designing and then
17 A. Yes. 17 constructing a levee?
18 Q. And under C it says, quote, "Borrow 18 A. Yeah. Generally, yes.
19 is generally obtained from shallow pits or 19 Q. Okay. Item 6 says "Analyze each
20 from channels excavated adjacent to the 20 trial section as needed for", and then certain
21 levee." Do you see that? 21 things. What's a trial section?
22 A. Uh-huh (affirmatively). 22 A. The geotech engineer will develop a
23 Q. Is that a description of a levee or 23 cross section of what the levee's geometry
24 an earth dam? Do you know? 24 would look like, and that would include the
25 A. I don't know. I would have to read 25 adjacent lands, borrow pits, canals, wetlands,
Page 38 Page 40
10 (Pages 37 to 40)
1 whatever it may be, and then they would 1 eight, ten, twelve, 20 feet, whatever, of
2 perform geotechnical analysis in the 2 embankment; correct?
3 categories that are listed here with -- 3 A. That's correct.
4 regarding seepage and slope stability and 4 Q. So they want the trial section to be
5 overall settlement of what -- what's 5 analyzed for under-seepage and through
6 envisioned in going into that design section. 6 seepage; right?
7 That would include the materials and the 7 A. Yes.
8 methods of placement. 8 Q. Let's go to C. What's settlement?
9 Q. Under 6-A the guideline says 9 A. Settlement, when you build levees in
10 "Analyze each trial section as needed for, A, 10 south Louisiana, you're increasing the
11 under-seepage and through seepage". Do you 11 pressure on the natural ground, so you're
12 see that? 12 consolidating or compressing that material.
13 A. Yes. 13 You are also going to have consolidation of
14 Q. What is under-seepage? 14 material that you are putting in place. So
15 A. I think -- I believe that's -- Well, 15 you have got two components. And that levee's
16 I am not going to say "I believe". What 16 going to come down in time.
17 they're referencing is seepage beneath the 17 Q. It's just the natural order of
18 levee itself. You have in situ natural 18 things in southeast Louisiana?
19 materials that are part of the overall levee 19 A. Yes. And geotechnical --
20 section, and then through seepage would be 20 geotechnical engineers will calculate the
21 through the levee embankment that you're 21 anticipated rates of settlement and -- in
22 constructing. 22 designing the overall section.
23 Q. So when water is loaded against the 23 Q. I understand there's two types of
24 side of the embankment, depending on the 24 lowering. There's first in situ, the ground
25 materials used, compaction and other factors, 25 being, say, spongy or porous, the heavy weight
Page 41 Page 43
1 water might seep underneath the structure, 1 of the embankment pushes it down? Correct?
2 right, because, say, it's organic or porous 2 A. Yes.
3 soil; right? 3 Q. Is that called settlement or
4 A. (Witness nods head affirmatively.) 4 subsidence?
5 Q. You have to say "yes". 5 A. I would call that settlement.
6 MR. SMITH: 6 Q. Okay. And within the structure
7 You have to answer verbally. 7 itself, there being somewhat porous soils or
8 THE WITNESS: 8 water-containing soils, there's also a
9 Okay. Yes, it's going to find -- 9 compaction that occurs there as well. Is that
10 It can track -- It's going to try to 10 right?
11 find a path beneath the levee. 11 A. Yes.
12 EXAMINATION BY MR. O'DONNELL: 12 Q. You call that subsidence or
13 Q. Right. Water seeks its lowest 13 settlement?
14 level? 14 A. Settlement.
15 A. Or its highest level. 15 Q. So there's two species of
16 Q. Or least resistance? 16 settlement?
17 A. Yeah. 17 A. Yes.
18 Q. So if it can get underneath, it 18 Q. And they want the trial section to
19 will; right? 19 be analyzed for that as well; right?
20 A. Yes. 20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Because of porosity or whatever; 21 Q. So as I understand it in southeast
22 right? 22 Louisiana, when you design a flood levee,
23 A. Yes. 23 there is a margin or safety factor, or design
24 Q. And also there's a concern whether 24 factor -- there's a design factor included for
25 the water will actually go through the six, 25 the estimated settlement; correct?
Page 42 Page 44
11 (Pages 41 to 44)
1 A. Yes. 1 more typical."

2 Q. So if you think you -- if you want a 2 Q. "Controlled compaction", what does
3 design grade, well, let's pick 17 and a half 3 that mean?
4 feet. Okay? You would build it at a higher 4 A. You're -- You're bringing material
5 level, say 20 feet or whatever the engineer on 5 to the levee at a certain moisture content
6 the site thinks for that section? 6 range and then you're carefully compacting it
7 A. Yes. 7 in specific layers. Layer thicknesses by a
8 Q. And it might vary from section to 8 specific means. It could have a weight,
9 section depending on the foundational 9 specific weight.
10 materials? 10 Q. Density?
11 A. Yes. And it may include multiple 11 A. Well, yeah. I don't want to get too
12 lifts, not just "Let's build it to 20 and a 12 far ahead. And then you go back and you have
13 half and we'll wind up at 17 and a half." 13 a means of measuring that compaction to see if
14 Q. Well, if the manual discusses it, 14 it meets your spec. That's today's -- today's
15 I'll ask you. If it doesn't, I'll ask Mr. 15 means.
16 Naomi. 16 Q. Okay. May not have been in '78?
17 A. Okay. 17 A. May not have been then.
18 Q. But my understanding, say, along the 18 Q. Fine. Continue on with the "While
19 MRGO Reach 2, there were progressive lifts or 19 in areas". Would you continue that, please?
20 enlargements; correct? 20 A. "While in areas of lower property
21 A. Yes. 21 values, poor foundations, or high rainfall
22 Q. You don't just put up 20 feet right 22 during the construction season, uncompacted or
23 away? 23 semi-compacted levees with flatter slopes are
24 A. That's right. 24 more typical."
25 Q. Okay. 25 Q. What is semi-compacted?
Page 45 Page 47
1 A. Well, it doesn't stay there. 1 A. Semi-compacted is similar to

2 Q. Right. Let's go to page 1-3 if you 2 compacted except the requirements aren't quite
3 would, please. It -- Actually, if you go just 3 as stringent, and the -- that may have to do
4 before table 1-1, on top of 1-2, there's a 4 with the moisture contents of the water -- of
5 section 4. Do you see that paragraph numbered 5 the soil. Again, it has to be within a
6 4? The top, just before the chart. 6 certain range to get maximum compaction. And
7 A. Yes. Okay. 7 if it's not within that range, you're not
8 Q. It begins "The method of 8 going to get it, no matter how much weight you
9 construction must also be considered". Next 9 may -- how much effort you may put into
10 "In the" -- then page 1-3 it continues. You 10 compacting it. So semi-compacted is somewhat
11 see that? 11 less, but it's a very controlled means of
12 A. Yes, I do. 12 placing that levee. Uncompacted is just that.
13 Q. Et cetera. Okay. There's a 13 It's not rolled or in any particular means as
14 sentence that begins "Traditionally". Do you 14 it's being placed. There are generally a lift
15 see that? 15 limitation, and it may be a three foot lift in
16 A. Yes, I do. 16 a lot of cases where's they place it
17 Q. Could you read that for me, please? 17 uncompacted. Then they may dress it in some
18 A. "Traditionally in areas of high 18 fashion with a dozer or some other equipment
19 property values, high land use and good 19 to generally spread it, smooth it, compact it
20 foundation conditions, levees have been built 20 to some generality, but it's considered
21 with relatively steep slopes using controlled 21 uncompacted material.
22 compaction, while in areas of lower property 22 Q. According to this paragraph you just
23 values, poor foundations or high rainfall 23 read, if you are in areas of high property
24 during the construction season, uncompacted or 24 values and high land use, you would have
25 semi-compacted levees with flatter slopes are 25 compacted material; correct?
Page 46 Page 48
12 (Pages 45 to 48)
1 MR. SMITH: 1 A. That's -- That's a generality I

2 I'm going to object to the form 2 would say.
3 of the question. 3 Q. Okay. Geological study is set forth
4 MR. O'DONNELL: 4 in 2-2. Do you see that?
5 Okay. 5 A. Yes.
6 MR. SMITH: 6 Q. All right. And that's one of the
7 It says "and". These are all -- 7 early things that are done in the field, a
8 There's a series of things and it says 8 geological study?
9 "and". It doesn't say "or". 9 A. Yes.
10 EXAMINATION BY MR. O'DONNELL: 10 Q. Okay. Is soils analysis part of the
11 Q. It says "Traditionally in areas of 11 field investigation?
12 high property values, high land use, and good 12 A. You process the results from the
13 foundation conditions," you use controlled 13 field investigation, and that includes testing
14 compaction. Right? 14 of the soils.
15 A. I think any one of these conditions 15 Q. Okay. Page 2-4, section 2 is
16 could apply. You have to look at the total 16 subsurface exploration. Do you see that?
17 picture. You need good foundation 17 A. Not yet.
18 conditions. If you don't have good foundation 18 Q. Page 2-4.
19 conditions, you know, that compaction may not 19 A. Okay. Yes.
20 do you any good. 20 Q. What is subsurface exploration?
21 Q. Because of settlement? 21 A. That would be again part of that
22 A. Because -- No, because you're 22 geotechnical testing program. You go out in
23 analyzing the in-place mass of levee that -- 23 the field and actually take borings in some
24 which includes the underground conditions as 24 fashion and you -- you determine the
25 well as the above-ground conditions. 25 properties of the materials.
Page 49 Page 51
1 Q. Okay. Do you agree that the area of 1 Q. How deep do the borings go? Do you
2 Reach 1 and Reach 2 of MRGO involves high 2 know?
3 property values? 3 A. Well, the geologist would work with
4 A. Yes, an urban area. 4 the geotechnical engineer and they would look
5 Q. High land use? 5 at the geology of the area and they would make
6 A. Yes. 6 a determination as to how far they had to go
7 Q. What were the foundation conditions? 7 based upon that geology.
8 A. Poor, very poor. 8 Q. And what's the determinative of how
9 Q. Okay. On 1-3, under B-1, there's a 9 far they, quote, "had to go", unquote?
10 characterization of levee types according to 10 A. That's hard to answer in general
11 location. Do you see that? 11 terms. If you were looking at a levee
12 A. Yes. 12 foundation, you are looking for all the layers
13 Q. And under 1, there's urban levees? 13 that would be significant in that stability
14 A. Yes. 14 and seepage analysis; so you could have
15 Q. And in the area I just described, 15 failure planes from the surface to many feet
16 Reach 1 and Reach 2 of the MRGO, would they be 16 below the surface and you would have to make a
17 urban levees? 17 determination as to where you think that may
18 A. Yes. 18 occur. You also have the seepage concerns and
19 Q. I just want to go through the 19 the consolidation that you have to deal with.
20 progression for a few minutes. Chapter 2, 20 So that would be one aspect.
21 page 2-1, discusses field investigations. Do 21 When you are looking at a
22 you see that? 22 structural foundation, you have to envision
23 A. Yes. 23 how far you may have to drive piles beneath
24 Q. And I understand there's two stages, 24 that structure to make sure that you encompass
25 preliminary and final? 25 that entire area.
Page 50 Page 52
13 (Pages 49 to 52)
1 Q. Okay. Page 2-6 talks about the 1 Q. How about clay? Is clay a fine
2 depth of borings. Do you see that? Item B? 2 grain?
3 A. Yes. 3 A. Sure.
4 Q. It says they should be at least 4 Q. Okay.
5 equal to the height of the level, but not less 5 A. Well, yeah, clay can be fine grain,
6 than ten feet. Do you see that? 6 yes.
7 A. Yes. 7 Q. Okay. Fine. So fine grain is sort
8 Q. Section 3 of this portion, page 2-9, 8 of a generic descriptor for how soils are
9 is field testing. Do you see that? 9 measured, the fineness of the soil?
10 A. Yes. 10 A. Uh-huh (affirmatively). Yeah.
11 Q. What's the purpose of field 11 Q. It doesn't mean they're really good
12 testing? 12 soils like "fine", just how they're --
13 A. This -- Again, this is -- I captured 13 A. Right.
14 this earlier with the geotechnical testing 14 Q. Okay. And within the universe of
15 program. This is just a component of that. 15 fine grain soils, there are some that are more
16 In this paragraph, though, -- Let me look at 16 water -- have more water content than others;
17 it before I finish. 17 correct?
18 Q. There's a table 2-5. 18 A. Yes.
19 A. There are additional tests that can 19 Q. Okay. And is that part of the
20 be taken in addition to the boring program. I 20 gradation of soil besides the fineness of the
21 don't know -- I don't know how the vein shear 21 grain, the water content?
22 was used back in that time period. 22 A. That's one of the properties that's
23 Q. What is vein shear? 23 considered.
24 A. I really don't have the expertise to 24 Q. Does this manual suggest an ideal
25 tell you that. 25 soil for building levees in the region of
Page 53 Page 55
1 Q. Okay. Nor do I. 1 Reach 1 and Reach 2?

2 Chapter 3 is laboratory testing. 2 A. I don't -- I don't think it does, to
3 Is that testing of the soils? 3 tell you the truth. I think again it's
4 A. Yes. 4 offering you general guidelines as to what's
5 Q. Okay. I would like to go to section 5 -- what you -- what kind of thinking, testing
6 1 just for a moment. Section 1, on page 3-1. 6 program, and plan of construction -- design
7 Its heading is "Fine grain soils." Do you see 7 and construction you may put together based
8 that? 8 upon the material in this -- this document.
9 A. Yes. 9 But you have to apply it to the local site
10 Q. What are fine grain soils? 10 conditions.
11 A. Well, all soils are classified based 11 Q. One of the tests that the manual
12 upon the -- what they're made up of. And the 12 recommends for fine grain soils is on page
13 fine -- It would be the size of the particle 13 3-11. It's called compaction test. It's
14 of that soil composition. And these are 14 under section 3-7.
15 considered -- When they're talking about fine 15 A. Okay.
16 grain, there would probably be a table or 16 Q. What's a compaction test?
17 something, a chart in this document somewhere 17 A. Compaction test -- Let me look at
18 that would kind of tell you how you determine 18 the tables here where they summarize it.
19 fine -- you know, where is the dividing line. 19 MR. O'DONNELL:
20 Q. What other types of soils are there 20 You want a break, Robin?
21 commonly associated in the areas where Reach 1 21 MR. SMITH:
22 and Reach 2, for example, were constructed? 22 I'm fine.
23 There's fine grain soils. Are there other 23 MR. O'DONNELL:
24 types of soils? 24 I don't want you to die on the
25 A. I would have to look at the -- 25 record.
Page 54 Page 56
14 (Pages 53 to 56)
1 We'll take a break. Okay? 1 another factor they take into account?
2 VIDEO OPERATOR: 2 A. It's taken into account for the
3 Off the record. 3 height of the levee, yes.
4 (Whereupon a discussion was held 4 Q. Okay. So the velocity of the water
5 off the record.) 5 coming up against the embankment is not a
6 VIDEO OPERATOR: 6 factor, because you're saying it's static?
7 On the record. 7 A. The -- I don't know that the
8 EXAMINATION BY MR. O'DONNELL: 8 velocity is analyzed to compute an X number of
9 Q. I asked you before the break what 9 feet per second --
10 compaction tests are. Can you tell us? 10 Q. Okay.
11 A. Compaction tests are measuring that 11 A. -- and in that detail. I do know
12 particular material at -- I believe, and again 12 they talk about the suitability of grass as
13 I am not an expert in this area, but I believe 13 far as for a covering.
14 they're measuring how well you can compact the 14 Q. All right. Because a smooth flowing
15 material. And probably looking at some 15 stream that has an earthen embankment has the
16 variations in moisture and other things that 16 same, quote, load, unquote, as a rapidly
17 could affect the compaction. 17 moving stream in terms of load being the
18 Q. And that would be an important 18 weight placed against the structure; correct?
19 factor, for example, when you're trying to 19 A. Uh-huh (affirmatively.)
20 estimate settlement? How much the soils 20 Q. But if it's a hurricane surge or
21 compact? 21 rapidly flowing water, there might be other
22 A. I -- I don't know that. 22 considerations such as potential erosion,
23 Q. Okay. 23 boiling, churning and all of those things that
24 A. I think it's more of your placement 24 would be taken into account to design like
25 that you're looking at. 25 such things as you suggested as protective
Page 57 Page 59
1 Q. Well, after soils are compacted, you 1 armoring or whatever? Is that fair to say?
2 would still expect in this region, we're 2 A. It's -- It's fair to say it's
3 talking about for Reach 1, Reach 2, there to 3 considered.
4 be settlement; correct? 4 Q. Okay. Fine.
5 A. Yes. 5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Okay. Let me ask you a question. 6 Q. On 3-1 of the exhibit we're looking
7 Back earlier on page 1-1, 1-5 A-1, we were 7 at, there's a section 2 and now we see a new
8 looking at the definition of "levee". 8 term, "coarse grain soils". Do you see that?
9 A. Uh-huh (affirmatively). 9 A. No.
10 Q. You see that? 10 Q. Page 3-11. I'm sorry. I am going
11 A. Yes. 11 back to where we left off. 3-11. Coarse
12 Q. And a factor that was indicated 12 grain soils.
13 there was water loading for prolonged 13 A. Yes.
14 periods? Do you see that? 14 Q. Do you see that?
15 A. Yes. 15 A. Uh-huh (affirmatively).
16 Q. In terms of what is a levee, is 16 Q. Now, we saw there was something
17 severity of the load also a factor that the 17 described as fine grain soils. Now we see
18 engineers in the field take into account? 18 something called coarse grain soils. Can you
19 A. I'm not sure what you're talking 19 tell me what they are?
20 about, "severity". Water loading, it's a 20 A. I would put those more in the line
21 fairly static load. 21 of sandy materials.
22 Q. So -- 22 Q. And sandy materials are common in
23 A. The water load itself. 23 the area of Reach 1 and Reach 2 of the MRGO;
24 Q. So the water load -- Okay. What 24 right?
25 about wave -- wave and run-up? Is that 25 A. I don't know that.
Page 58 Page 60
15 (Pages 57 to 60)
1 Q. Okay. You have never studied that? 1 Q. So are coarse grain soils more
2 A. No. Not in that detail. 2 preferable?
3 Q. Okay. Great. 3-9 on this page 3-11 3 A. No, I would say not.
4 has a concept or a term known as 4 Q. What is?
5 permeability. Do you see that? 5 A. A good clay is the most preferable
6 A. Yes. 6 material.
7 Q. What is permeability? 7 Q. Is good clay common in the area of
8 A. It's the ability of water to move 8 Reach 2 and Reach 1?
9 through a particular layer of material or type 9 A. There's -- There's some clay out
10 of material based as a result of a head trying 10 there. Some of it may be good and some of it
11 to force that water to equalize. So you have 11 may not.
12 movement of water through the material. 12 Q. Okay. There's also in this sentence
13 Q. Okay. Let's go to chapter 4, which 13 the words "highly organic soils." What are
14 is on page 4-1. This section's described as 14 highly organic soils?
15 "Borrow materials". Do you see that? 15 A. Contains layers of maybe peat,
16 A. Yes. 16 roots, you know, some sort of vegetation
17 Q. What are -- Generally what are 17 that's decayed over time.
18 borrow materials? 18 Q. And that would -- they would have a
19 A. That's material that you're going to 19 fairly high liquid content?
20 utilize to construct the levee. 20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Okay. 21 Q. And, therefore, with that kind of
22 A. You take it from another spot and 22 material, there would be expected significant
23 shape it into your levee. 23 settlement, say, compared to fine grain soils?
24 Q. Typically it's nearby? 24 A. Yes, high compressibility.
25 A. Yes. 25 Q. High compressibility. That's what I
Page 61 Page 63
1 Q. Okay. And that's one of those -- 1 was looking for. Thank you.
2 and there's a cost consideration about how 2 Item B, another factor to take
3 close it is to where you're going to build the 3 into account when looking at borrow material
4 levee; correct? 4 is natural water content; correct?
5 A. Yes. 5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Now, in some situations you have to 6 Q. And one of the costs you have in
7 import material; correct? 7 building something like levees along Reach 1
8 A. Yes. 8 and Reach 2 is the drying of the material
9 Q. And why is that? 9 that's being borrowed; correct?
10 A. Because you can't find a suitable 10 A. It depends on how you're placing
11 source close to the project. 11 it. If you're compacting it, yes. If you're
12 Q. Okay. Under 4-2-A, "Material type", 12 not compacting it, that wouldn't be a factor.
13 do you see that headline? 13 Q. You're not the witness designated
14 A. Yes. 14 for this, but along Reach 2 of the MRGO there
15 Q. Would you read the first sentence 15 is a section known as spoil banks. You're
16 for us, please? 16 familiar with those?
17 A. "Almost any soil is suitable for 17 A. In general.
18 constructing levees except very wet fine grain 18 Q. Okay. And my understanding of the
19 soils or highly organic soils." 19 spoil banks, and I have another witness on
20 Q. Okay. And why is that? 20 this in detail, but my understanding of spoil
21 A. It's harder to process those 21 banks is when they dredged, for example, the
22 materials, to compact them. So ideally if you 22 MRGO, they would deposit the hydraulic
23 had a good foundation and you can compact it 23 material that came out into the spoil banks
24 to a large degree, you can take advantage of 24 which would allow for some drying over time of
25 the strengths of the materials. 25 the material. Is that a fair statement?
Page 62 Page 64
16 (Pages 61 to 64)
1 A. I know the material was placed 1 A. The water side (indicating).

2 there. 2 Q. And how do you tell which is the
3 Q. Okay. 3 water side?
4 A. Yeah. 4 A. The blue. The blue is the river.
5 Q. If you go to 4-2, please, the next 5 Q. Okay. So if you're taking -- If
6 page. There's a sub A at the top of the page, 6 you're building a borrow pit there, where
7 "Location". Do you see that? 7 would you put the borrow material?
8 A. Yes. 8 A. Well, according to this document,
9 Q. Would you read the first sentence 9 they're saying there's a preference to put it
10 for us, please? 10 on this side, on the river side (indicating).
11 A. "Borrow area locations on the river 11 Q. Okay.
12 side of a levee are preferable as borrow 12 A. But it's not always done that way.
13 pits". 13 Q. I got it. It depends on the locale;
14 Q. What does that mean? 14 right?
15 A. Talking to -- about riverine levees 15 A. Yes.
16 again and stating that there's a preference to 16 Q. All right. Slope determinations and
17 put the borrow pit on the flood side, the 17 other factors engineers take into account
18 river side of the levee in lieu of the 18 under this manual, correct? Look at 4-2 on
19 protected side of the levee. 19 the bottom of page 4-2, 4-4, 4-A, slopes?
20 Q. Okay. If you look at Reach 2 of the 20 A. Are we talk- --
21 MRGO on that map over there, is the river side 21 Q. I'm on page 4-2.
22 of that the area on the south side? 22 A. Excavation slopes of borrow areas?
23 MR. SMITH: 23 Q. Yes.
24 Object to the form of that 24 A. Yes.
25 question. 25 Q. Well, this will help us for the next
Page 65 Page 67
1 EXAMINATION BY MR. O'DONNELL: 1 two days. Page 4-3, there's a section C,

2 Q. Okay. What is the river side along 2 "Fore shore". Do you see that?
3 Reach -- 3 A. Yes.
4 A. There is no river side. I mean, you 4 Q. And then there's a figure 4-1, "Plan
5 have a flood side which would be the Lake 5 of typical levee and borrow areas with
6 Borgne side. 6 traverse and fore shore". Do you see that?
7 Q. So it's preferable to have the 7 A. Uh-huh (affirmatively).
8 borrow pit on the other side? 8 Q. What is fore shore?
9 A. This is not riverine. 9 A. Let me -- It's talking about the
10 Q. River what? 10 water side of the levee embankment.
11 A. This is not a riverine situation. 11 Q. Okay. In Reach 2 of the MRGO,
12 This is a different situation. 12 there's a term used commonly called "fore
13 Q. What's river- -- 13 shore". Which is the fore shore side of Reach
14 A. If I have read this strictly, I 14 2?
15 would say that's what -- That's a strict 15 A. That would be the MRGO side of the
16 interpretation of that first sentence. 16 levee.
17 Q. Okay. What's riverine? 17 Q. The south side? Southwest side?
18 A. Associated with rivers like the 18 A. Which Reach now are you talk --
19 Mississippi River, the Atchafalaya River where 19 Q. Reach 2.
20 you would have high prolonged periods of 20 A. And Reach -- Is that Reach 2 from
21 water. 21 there (indicating)? Is that what you're
22 Q. The Mississippi River is depicted on 22 calling Reach 2?
23 that map over there. 23 Q. Yes. Yes, sir.
24 A. Right there (indicating). 24 A. This would be the fore shore side.
25 Q. Which would be the river side? 25 It would be the northeast side.
Page 66 Page 68
17 (Pages 65 to 68)
1 Q. That's where -- on the Lake Borgne 1 A. Sometimes it's specified by law.

2 side? 2 And other times it could be calculated in some
3 A. Yes. 3 capacity.
4 Q. Okay. What's the other side called? 4 Q. So they first design -- And I am
5 A. I have called it the protected 5 going to get into this in a minute, design
6 side. I am not sure how it's referenced in 6 grade, they have design grades --
7 this document. 7 A. Yes.
8 Q. So the foreshore side of Reach 2 is 8 Q. -- for the levee; right?
9 the side on the generally northeast closest to 9 A. Yes.
10 Lake Borgne, and the protected side is on the 10 Q. And there's an added measure of
11 other side of the MRGO; correct? 11 protection or safety called freeboard?
12 A. Yes. 12 A. Yes.
13 Q. The south side? 13 Q. Is that to deal with surge and wave
14 A. Yes. 14 run-up?
15 Q. Thank you. Okay. Chapter 5 is 15 A. I don't know the answer to that.
16 "Seepage control". That's another 16 Q. But on the -- Again, on section B of
17 consideration that has to be taken into 17 page 6-1 of the exhibit, it states "Freeboard
18 account; correct? 18 allowances for levees have not been strictly
19 A. Yes. 19 standardized. But minimum values most
20 Q. Okay. Let's skip that. 20 commonly used are two feet for agricultural
21 Chapter 6, which is page 6-1, is 21 levees and three feet for urban levees".
22 "Slope design and settlement". Do you see 22 Right?
23 that? 23 A. Yes.
24 A. Yes. 24 Q. And you considered MRGO Reach 1 and
25 Q. And under B, "Crown elevation", do 25 Reach 2 an urban levee?
Page 69 Page 71
1 you see down at the bottom of page 6-1 -- 1 A. Yes.

2 A. Uh-huh (affirmatively.) 2 Q. Let's go to 6-2 for a moment if we
3 Q. -- there's a term -- 3 could, sir. On page 6-2, actually. It says
4 A. Yes. 4 "Standard levee sections". Do you see that?
5 Q. -- "Crown elevation"? 5 A. Yes.
6 A. Yes. 6 Q. What's a standard levee section?
7 Q. What is crown elevation? 7 A. It's a -- a section that may be used
8 A. That's the top of the levee, the 8 as a -- as a guide, more specific guidance or
9 flat portion of the levee. 9 policy. Within this area, you're going to use
10 Q. Okay. And is that typically 10 this type of -- this configuration.
11 narrower or wider than the base? 11 Q. Like a prototype maybe?
12 A. Narrower. 12 A. Yeah, and it may be for a variety of
13 Q. Okay. There's a term used in the 13 reasons. And it would be based upon a certain
14 '78 manual called "freeboard allowance". Do 14 set of conditions that were analyzed where
15 you see that? Again, it's in the crown 15 we'd have to go back if you were doing that I
16 elevation, subsection B? The second 16 think and make sure that it fit your
17 sentence. 17 particular site.
18 A. Yes. 18 Q. Okay. We see documents with station
19 Q. Okay. What's a freeboard analysis? 19 numbers, station 380, station -- What is a --
20 A. On a river -- a river project or -- 20 What is the interval between stations? Do you
21 It would be a -- You have got the river stage 21 know? Is it standard?
22 that you're designing for. Then they would 22 A. Yes. It's -- You actually have it
23 add some additional height, and that would be 23 in feet, and it may be 100 feet apart
24 called freeboard. 24 depending on how the stations are laid out.
25 Q. And why do they add that freeboard? 25 Or 1,000 feet apart. But it's designating
Page 70 Page 72
18 (Pages 69 to 72)
1 particular reaches along a protection line. 1 -- a good clay -- clay material.

2 Q. How do you tell like for Reach 2 of 2 Q. Okay. Sometimes called a clay cap?
3 the MRGO whether the interval is 100 feet, 3 A. Could be.
4 1,000 feet or -- 4 Q. Okay. It says "The impervious
5 A. You would look at the design 5 blanket is normally ten to twelve feet wide,
6 documents or the plans and they would tell you 6 which will produce an effective thickness of
7 what the stationing is. 7 about three to four feet normal in the slope
8 Q. Okay. Great. That spacing is 8 surface". Do you see that?
9 constant throughout that project; correct? 9 A. Yes.
10 A. I don't know that it has -- There's 10 Q. Okay. Again, the purpose of the
11 no technical reason why it would have to be, 11 impervious blanket is to retard or resist
12 but likely so. 12 erosion of the embankment; correct?
13 Q. Okay. Let's go to section 6-3, 13 A. I don't think so.
14 which begins on section 6-3. You see that? 14 Q. What's the purpose of the impervious
15 A. Yes. 15 --
16 Q. It says "Compacted fills". Do you 16 A. I think it's to control seepage in
17 see section A? 17 the vicinity of the levee.
18 A. Yes. 18 Q. Okay. Seepage can lead to erosion;
19 Q. And then section B is "Hydraulic 19 right? Or failure?
20 fill". Do you see that? 20 A. Seepage can lead to failure, yes.
21 A. Yes. 21 Q. Right. "Stability analysis".
22 Q. Now, let's go to the next page, sub 22 Let's go to 7-6 and talk about
23 2, under B, "Hydraulic fill". Do you see sub 23 lifts. Page 7-6, sub D-1, "Stage
24 2 on page 6-4? 24 construction", sub 1 is "General". Do you see
25 A. Yes. 25 that?
Page 73 Page 75
1 Q. I have underlined something there 1 A. Yes.

2 which is not part of the original. It says in 2 Q. Stage construction refers to the
3 the middle, "When the land side slope is 3 building of an embankment in stages or
4 steeper than one -- one vertical on five 4 intervals of time. You referred to that
5 horizontal, either an impervious blanket on 5 earlier; right?
6 the river side slope or an under-drain to 6 A. Yes.
7 control seepage is required." Do you see 7 Q. The progressive adding of new
8 that? 8 material, compaction, and settlement and then
9 A. Yes. 9 repeating the process? Is that right?
10 Q. Okay. What is an impervious 10 A. Yes.
11 blanket? 11 Q. Okay. And I have underlined --
12 A. It would be a blanket of material 12 Would you read the next two sentences I
13 that would prevent waters from penetrating 13 underlined, please?
14 that blanket. 14 A. "This method is used where the
15 Q. Does the design manual we're looking 15 strength of the foundation material is
16 at here have a discussion of various types of 16 inadequate to support the entire weight of the
17 impervious blanket material? 17 embankment. If built continuously at a pace
18 A. I would suspect it does, but I could 18 faster than the foundation material can drain,
19 not point you to it. 19 using this method, the embankment is built to
20 Q. Well, we'll get to it if it does. 20 intermediate grades and allowed to rest for a
21 That could be anything from 21 time before placing more fill. Such rest
22 rip-rap to grass or anything else; right? 22 periods permit dissipation of pore water
23 A. No, not -- not necessarily. 23 pressures which results in a gain in strength
24 Q. Is an impervious blanket concrete? 24 so that higher embankment loadings may be
25 A. It could be concrete, it could be a 25 supported."
Page 74 Page 76
19 (Pages 73 to 76)
1 Q. So -- It's just a hypothetical, 1 Q. Because of the added weight of the

2 okay, to see if I understand this section. 2 extra five feet?
3 Phase one of a half mile section, say, of 3 A. Yes.
4 Reach 2 in the early -- the first stage, they 4 Q. Okay. And then you have to wait --
5 put in material or whatever and it gets to ten 5 And the curve will tell you how much time you
6 feet. Hypothetically ten feet. Right? 6 have to wait before you build the next lift,
7 A. Okay. 7 right, the curve?
8 Q. Would that be too high initially or 8 A. It will be part of the overall
9 -- 9 assessment of the package of, you know, what
10 A. It would be based on detailed 10 can you build out there, how stable will it
11 calculations. 11 be; a lot of decisions going into that.
12 Q. Five feet. It doesn't make any 12 Q. So long as Congress keeps funding
13 difference. 13 the money, you can keep doing whatever the
14 A. Okay. 14 curve says; right? Is that fair?
15 Q. Just pick a height. Five feet. 15 A. There's a lot more obstacles than
16 Okay? 16 that, but yes, that's one way you could
17 A. Uh-huh (affirmatively). 17 characterize it.
18 Q. And you got this half a mile of five 18 Q. I know there's a bunch, but as long
19 feet. Okay? 19 as you have got the money, the clearances, the
20 A. Okay. 20 approvals --
21 Q. Then there's -- what this is saying 21 A. And the borrow material.
22 in the stage construction, you have to allow 22 Q. And the borrow material. And if you
23 some time for settlement; correct? 23 don't have the borrow material, you have to
24 A. Yes. 24 import it; right?
25 Q. All right. And does that vary? 25 A. Yes.
Page 77 Page 79
1 A. Yes. As part of the geotechnical 1 Q. Okay.

2 engineer's design calculations, he would 2 A. Yes.
3 actually produce a curve that would say if I 3 (Whereupon a discussion was held
4 pile it to X number of feet, how long is it 4 off the record.)
5 going to take for these pressures to dissipate 5 EXAMINATION BY MR. O'DONNELL:
6 and when's the right time or the range of 6 Q. So just so I understand what they're
7 times to go back with another lift. 7 saying in stage construction, to summarize it,
8 Q. Okay. So I get to five feet, a year 8 building of a levee along, say, Reach 2 of the
9 or two passes -- I'm hypothet- -- It could be 9 MRGO contemplates stages with time intervals
10 a year or two, right, for the settlement? Is 10 and incremental increases in the height until
11 that fair? 11 you get to design grade. Is that fair?
12 A. Yes. 12 A. Yes. Yes.
13 Q. All right. Meanwhile, I am building 13 Q. Okay. And Mr. Andry wants me to ask
14 another segment five feet, five feet, and then 14 this question. When we described station
15 I double back, I am making this up, 15 numbers that are assigned to, say, Reach 2, do
16 hypothetically, two years later and I add 16 those station numbers and their location
17 another five feet to this section and another 17 remain constant in the various plans you see
18 five. Just building up the layers. 18 over time?
19 A. Okay. 19 A. They should be. Sometimes there are
20 Q. Settlement; right? 20 corrections that are made for various
21 A. Uh-huh (affirmatively). 21 reasons. But they -- in general, they should
22 Q. Settlement occurs? And will there 22 be.
23 be settlement in the first five feet as well 23 Q. So if I am looking at station 380 in
24 as the second five feet? 24 1981 and I look at station 380 in 2004,
25 A. Yes. 25 hopefully I am looking at the same place?
Page 78 Page 80
20 (Pages 77 to 80)
1 A. I would hope so, but again, it's -- 1 7-10, sub -- sub C, states
2 it does -- I don't know if that's that 2 "Sometimes it may be concluded that low cost
3 critical, because what you're identifying is a 3 protection such as grass cover will be
4 point on the ground to a baseline. 4 adequate in general for a levee reach," et
5 Q. Okay. 5 cetera. Do you see that?
6 A. And if that baseline has moved any 6 A. Yes.
7 kind of way or you discovered an error in the 7 Q. Is there a particular type of grass
8 baseline, there could be an adjustment in 8 that they use?
9 stationing. Or they could have put a new 9 A. I don't know. That's probably
10 baseline in for some particular reason. I 10 changed over the years.
11 don't know in this case if -- you know, how it 11 Q. Is Bermuda grass one of the ones
12 really is laid out. 12 that they use?
13 Q. They did it to confound an English 13 A. Yes.
14 major. I know why they did it. I thought the 14 Q. Okay. That's one I always find
15 one thing I learned last year was that station 15 myself in on the golf course. Okay. Skip
16 lines were constant. I guess maybe not. 16 Section 8, chapter 8, I think we covered
17 All right. Let's finish this up. 17 this.
18 Go to page 7-9 if you would. Thank you. 18 Let's go to 8-14. This section is
19 And you were right. There are 19 entitled "Section 3, Levee enlargements". Do
20 some information here about armoring. 7-6 is 20 you see that?
21 called "Protection of river side slopes". Do 21 A. Yes.
22 you see that? 22 Q. And one type of enlargement of a
23 A. Yes. 23 levee would be the base; correct?
24 Q. And this lists some various 24 A. I am not clear as --
25 considerations that the engineer can take into 25 Q. All right. Does this section deal
Page 81 Page 83
1 account about the need and type of protection 1 with increasing the height of a levee?
2 for the river side slope. 2 A. Yes.
3 A. Uh-huh (affirmatively). 3 Q. Okay. In fact, let's look at the
4 Q. Okay? 4 next page, 8-14. There's a helpful figure 8-3
5 A. Yes. 5 called "Enlargements". Do you see that?
6 Q. And in the MRGO analogy, the river 6 A. Yes, I do.
7 side slope would be the fore shore? 7 Q. And what is this depicting from top,
8 A. Yes. 8 middle, to bottom? Can you tell me?
9 Q. Okay. As opposed to the protected 9 A. It's showing you the various -- how
10 side; right? 10 they -- how the various means of raising a
11 A. Yes. 11 levee are categorized. They're talking about
12 Q. In the design of levees like those 12 a river side levee enlargement in A. So the
13 along the MRGO Reach 2, is it ever 13 levee enlargement is predominantly on the
14 recommended, say, in this manual or any other 14 river side.
15 Corps manual, that you also protect the 15 Q. Okay.
16 protected side of the levee? 16 A. When they -- This part B is a strata
17 A. I am not -- I am not aware of 17 levee enlargement and the levee enlargement is
18 specific references, but I can't say that it's 18 somewhat equal on both sides. You're placing
19 not. 19 substantial material on both sides. And then
20 Q. Okay. But generally it's advisable 20 the land side levee enlargement in C is
21 if the circumstances warrant to protect the 21 predominantly placement of material on the
22 river side or fore shore of a levee if the 22 protected side or the land side as they have
23 circumstances warrant? 23 it listed here.
24 A. The river side, yes. 24 Q. What dictates which of those three
25 Q. The river side. Okay. Page. 25 modes of enlargement are used?
Page 82 Page 84
21 (Pages 81 to 84)
1 A. I believe it's the geotechnical 1 design grade level?

2 analysis combined with available right-of-way 2 A. Well, there was a design grade that
3 and the envisioned construction means, the 3 was envisioned for the levee and that's what
4 source of materials, and so forth. 4 you were building to.
5 Q. Do you know whether -- which ones 5 Q. Okay. Do you know whether this
6 were used along Reach 2 of the MRGO? 6 design manual, or I'll get to its successor a
7 A. No, I don't. 7 few minutes, have a timetable for
8 Q. I suspect there will be somebody 8 enlargements?
9 here who will know. 9 A. Not that I know of.
10 What is a floodwall? You can look 10 Q. Okay. Again, that deals with the
11 at page 8-16 if you want. 11 variables you have talked about, the local
12 A. A floodwall is a means of providing 12 conditions, environmental considerations;
13 flood protection via some sort of structural 13 right?
14 solution. Generally involves sheet piling in 14 A. Yes.
15 some capacity. Concrete and sometimes steel 15 Q. Availability of funding,
16 or concrete piling for support. 16 availability of borrow material versus
17 Q. We have seen things called I-walls 17 imported material?
18 and T-walls. Are those types of floodwalls? 18 A. Uh-huh (affirmatively). Yes.
19 A. Yes, they are. 19 Q. Okay. And one of the factors that
20 Q. Okay. And sometimes floodwalls are 20 you described, which sounds to me like a local
21 put on tops of levees in lieu of adding more 21 engineering judgment, is that curve you told
22 dirt? 22 me about. Right? The curve of how long an
23 A. Yes. 23 enlargement will have to stay in place before
24 Q. Okay. What dictates the use of a 24 the next enlargement? That's a geo- -- Is
25 floodwall to enhance the height of the crown 25 that a geotechnical analysis?
Page 85 Page 87
1 versus adding dirt? 1 A. That's a geotechnical analysis.

2 A. I think that, again, there's a wide 2 Q. What's that curve called?
3 variety of factors that go into any decision 3 A. I don't know how they're labeled.
4 in building a levee or enlarging a line of 4 I've called them consolidation curves or
5 protection. You know, the environmental 5 settlement curves.
6 considerations are paramount. The available 6 Q. Consolidation or settlement curves?
7 real estate is paramount. The availability of 7 A. Yeah.
8 borrow material is paramount. And then you 8 Q. Okay.
9 have also the stability, the geotechnical 9 A. But I'm not sure how they're labeled
10 design of the levee feature; can you really 10 in any of the design documents.
11 sustain that higher weight of earth. 11 Q. Now if I wanted to find what had
12 Q. Along Reach 2 of the MRGO at the 12 been determined to be the consolidation or
13 time of Katrina there were some isolated 13 settlement curve for the MRGO Reach 2 or
14 segments of sheet piling. 14 sections of Reach 2, it should be in the
15 A. Yes. 15 design -- the engineering materials?
16 Q. Okay? And was that -- What was the 16 Withdrawn.
17 purpose of that sheet piling under the design 17 What materials would I look for?
18 manual? 18 A. Okay. I would -- I would look for
19 A. I don't know under the design 19 two -- two sources of material. The first
20 manual. 20 would be the GDM that went with the project
21 Q. What was the purpose of it? 21 and the second would be a more detailed
22 A. I think the purpose was to afford 22 analysis that could be in the form of a
23 protection at a higher level on top of the 23 geotechnical report for a particular reach.
24 levee. 24 MR. SMITH:
25 Q. Okay. And to try to even out the 25 GDM is?
Page 86 Page 88
22 (Pages 85 to 88)
1 THE WITNESS: 1 Q. Okay. And this manual probably

2 General design memorandum. 2 wouldn't give me the answer?
3 EXAMINATION BY MR. O'DONNELL: 3 A. No.
4 Q. Okay. And in your experience, just 4 Q. Because it varies from location to
5 say Reach 2, would that consolidation or 5 location?
6 settlement curve vary based on different 6 A. Yes.
7 locations along Reach 2? 7 Q. Project to project?
8 A. It could. I don't know how 8 A. Yes. Site specific.
9 substantially. But yes, it would vary. 9 Q. Site specific.
10 Q. But that is an important variable in 10 MR. O'DONNELL:
11 the time equation, right, what the settlement 11 I'll mark this as the next
12 curve is? 12 exhibit in order. With any luck, it's
13 A. But it's more -- It's more than just 13 Exhibit 4. Is it?
14 the settlement. The settlement is the 14 EXAMINATION BY MR. O'DONNELL:
15 engineering analyses. You have to marry that 15 Q. Mr. Baumy, I have placed before you
16 up with the plans for the overall project as 16 what has been marked as Exhibit 4. Can you
17 far as putting the entire package together, 17 identify it for me?
18 that takes all of those variables into account 18 A. Yes. It's EM1110-2-1913 dated 30
19 to get you to construction in the field. 19 April 2000, "Engineering and design, design
20 Q. All right. It is approximately, 20 and construction of levees".
21 approximately, and Mr. Naomi will probably 21 Q. Is this the successor to the prior
22 tell me exactly, but from the Bienvenu control 22 exhibit, 3, "Design and construction of
23 structure to the Verret turn is about 12, 13 23 levees" issued in 1978?
24 miles. 24 A. To the best of my knowledge, yes.
25 A. Okay. 25 Q. Is this one of the documents you
Page 89 Page 91
1 Q. Okay? Right? 1 looked over yesterday?

2 A. Yes. 2 A. Yes.
3 Q. And that's our primary focus of 3 Q. Or, excuse me, in preparation for
4 interest here in the next couple of days. 4 today?
5 Along that 12 or 13 mile section, when they 5 A. Yes.
6 were designing this, the general design memo, 6 Q. Okay. And on page 2 of the
7 would the proposed timetable for initial 7 document, under "Applicability", it says "This
8 foundational materials and then progressive 8 manual applies to all Corps of Engineers
9 enlargements have been laid out in the GDM? 9 Divisions and Districts having responsibility
10 A. I would think at least the -- an 10 for the design and construction of levees".
11 overall summary. And maybe not the particular 11 Do you see that?
12 reaches. But I would have to look at the GDM 12 A. Yes.
13 to tell you that. 13 Q. So that would apply here in the New
14 Q. So whether it's the GDM, would there 14 Orleans District?
15 be some planning document early on that would 15 A. Yes.
16 tell me what the Corps was estimating the 16 Q. T has the same caveat in number 4,
17 timetable to get to design grade was? 17 that it does not replace the judgment of the
18 A. Before the GDM? 18 design engineer on a particular project.
19 Q. No. Before they actually began 19 Right?
20 construction. Is there a planning document 20 A. Yes.
21 that tells us what the Corps was estimating to 21 Q. So typically in the New Orleans
22 be the time period to get in that 12 or 13 22 District, is there somebody known as the
23 mile stretch to the design grade level? 23 design engineer for a specific project?
24 A. I would anticipate that, but I don't 24 A. Well, we have a project engineer for
25 know for a fact. 25 a specific project.
Page 90 Page 92
23 (Pages 89 to 92)
1 Q. Is that the same as the project 1 A. Late '60s, early '70s.

2 manager? 2 Q. Was hydraulic fill used after this
3 A. Yes. 3 new manual was issued in 2000?
4 Q. So Mr. Naomi, who is going to 4 A. Not that I am aware of.
5 testify later, was a project manager at some 5 Q. Turn, if you would, please, to page
6 point for part of the MRGO levees? 6 7-6. Do you see that, "Protection of river
7 A. Yes. 7 side slopes"?
8 Q. Okay. Can you tell me, if you know, 8 A. Yes, I do.
9 how this manual differs from the predecessor 9 Q. Do you know the extent to which this
10 manual with regard to any items we have 10 differs from its predecessor?
11 discussed already? 11 A. No, I don't.
12 A. No, I can't. 12 Q. Is this the manual that's currently
13 Q. I was hoping you could, actually. 13 in force for the construction of levees?
14 We could say save a lot of time. But let me 14 A. To the best of my knowledge, yes.
15 go through. 15 Q. Did you participate at all in its
16 Let's go to page 6-2, if you 16 preparation?
17 would. And we're at section 6-3. I'll 17 A. No, I did not.
18 represent to you that subsection B is 18 Q. Do you know why the new manual now
19 different than the predecessor corresponding 19 recommends on page 6-2, which you just read,
20 section, but that's just a prelude. You don't 20 that hydraulic fill may not be used? Do you
21 have to accept that. But would you read to me 21 know why that was inserted in this new
22 the sentence beginning "Because a levee 22 version?
23 constructed of a hydraulic fill"? 23 A. No, I don't.
24 A. "Because a levee constructed of 24 Q. Had the Corps had any experience
25 hydraulic fill would be very pervious and have 25 that led it to conclude that there would be
Page 93 Page 95
1 a low density, it will require a large levee 1 significant erosion with hydraulic fill?
2 footprint and would be susceptible to soil 2 A. I don't know that.
3 liquefaction". 3 Q. So you're unaware of why this change
4 Q. Okay. The next sentence then? 4 was made?
5 A. "Hydraulic fill would also quickly 5 A. Correct.
6 erode upon overtopping or where an impervious 6 Q. But it's your best testimony that
7 covering was penetrated". 7 after this was promulgated, with regard to
8 Q. And then the last two. Thank you. 8 Reach 2 of the MRGO, the Corps did not use
9 A. "For these reasons, hydraulic fill 9 hydraulic fill in the construction of the
10 may be used for stability berms, pit fills and 10 enlargements of the levee?
11 seepage berms, but shall not normally be used 11 A. There may have been -- I think I
12 in constructing levee embankments. However, 12 understand your question better now.
13 hydraulic fill may be used for levees 13 Q. Okay.
14 protecting agricultural areas whose failure 14 A. When you are talking about
15 would not endanger human life and for zoned 15 enlargements, some of the material placed
16 embankments that include impervious seepage 16 could have been used in enlarging a section of
17 barriers". 17 levee. I don't know that. That would be a
18 Q. Do you know whether after this new 18 distinct possibility. But there was no
19 design manual, Exhibit 4, was issued, whether 19 hydraulic fill operation to generate fill up
20 hydraulic fill was used up to Hurricane 20 on the levee itself or in the area for use as
21 Katrina for Reach 2 of the MRGO levees? 21 borrow. That's my understanding.
22 A. It was used in the early stages, the 22 Q. But it does say in the new section B
23 initial source of borrow material. 23 under 6.3, "But shall not normally be used in
24 Q. What period of time are you 24 constructing levee embankments". Correct?
25 referring to an earliest date as? 25 A. Yes, it does.
Page 94 Page 96
24 (Pages 93 to 96)
1 Q. Okay. And enlargements are part of 1 Q. I will represent that I believe

2 the construction of levee embankments; 2 that's the source. Okay? All right.
3 correct? 3 Other than the two versions of the
4 A. Yes. But they're also talking about 4 design and construction of levees manual, is
5 hydraulic fill being mostly sands. And I 5 there any other manual that existed between
6 think any construction that happened on the 6 1966 and the present that gives guidance to
7 MRGO would have a geotechnical exploration 7 the field about how to engineer, design, and
8 aspect that would investigate what is the 8 construct levees?
9 material made of before it's placed. 9 A. Yes, I would think there's
10 Q. There's evidence that the levee 10 additional documents. There was a '47, 1947
11 embankment enlargements along the MRGO were 11 document pertaining to levees, and it's not
12 largely composed of uncompacted hydraulic 12 titled as such.
13 fill. Do you agree with that? 13 Q. Do you know what it's titled?
14 A. In general I would -- I would 14 A. I don't have it with me.
15 probably, but I would have to look at the 15 Q. Okay. Where would I find that?
16 documents to really give you a good answer 16 MR. SMITH:
17 there. 17 We can produce it to you.
18 Q. Okay. We have only a couple of 18 MR. O'DONNELL:
19 minutes to the videotape change so why don't 19 Would you do that?
20 we take a five or ten minute break and then 20 MR. SMITH:
21 I'm going to go on to a couple of other areas 21 Certainly.
22 in the Coastal Engineering Manual. 22 MR. O'DONNELL:
23 A. Okay. 23 Great.
24 Q. Okay? I may have a few more on 24 EXAMINATION BY MR. O'DONNELL:
25 this. Thank you very much. 25 Q. Have you done any even rough
Page 97 Page 99
1 MR. O'DONNELL: 1 comparison between the '47 manual and the '78
2 We'll take about a ten minute 2 manual?
3 break. 3 A. Not in enough detail to articulate
4 VIDEO OPERATOR: 4 the differences.
5 Off the record. 5 Q. Between 1947 and 1978, this manual,
6 (Recess.) 6 however entitled, was the guidance to the
7 VIDEO OPERATOR: 7 field for levees?
8 We're on the record. 8 A. It was part of the guidance from
9 EXAMINATION BY MR. O'DONNELL: 9 Headquarters that captured, or from -- might
10 Q. I'm going to mark as the next in 10 even have been from the Mississippi River
11 order this map so we have in the record a 11 Commission, captured best practices at that
12 common reference point to Reach 1 and Reach 2 12 time.
13 of the MRGO. This is Exhibit 5. Can you 13 Q. Okay. Fine. Now, what is the
14 identify that for me, sir? 14 Mississippi River Commission?
15 A. It's showing a vicinity -- well, a 15 A. A special commission set up for
16 Lake Pontchartrain and Vicinity Hurricane 16 overall program or project management of the
17 Protection Plan, Chalmette Area Plan, and it's 17 Mississippi River. It's got an appointee
18 showing the line of protection from the 18 which at this point I believe is General
19 intersection of the Mississippi River levee 19 Crear.
20 along the GIWW and the MRGO back to the 20 Q. General who?
21 Mississippi River levee. 21 A. Crear, at Mississippi Valley
22 Q. Okay. And it says underneath figure 22 Division.
23 1 "MRGO Reach 1 and Reach 2, U.S. Army Corps 23 Q. Okay. So you think that it may be
24 of Engineers IPET 2007". Okay? 24 they were the body that promulgated the 1947
25 A. Yes. 25 manual?
Page 98 Page 100
25 (Pages 97 to 100)
1 A. They were definitely involved with 1 Q. That's in Vicksburg?

2 it. I am not sure, again, the connection 2 A. Yes.
3 between them and the Headquarters. 3 Q. And the New Orleans District reports
4 Q. Was there a precursor or predecessor 4 to that --
5 to the 1947 manual for levees? 5 A. Yes.
6 A. I don't know that. I would suspect 6 Q. To Vicksburg? Vicksburg reports to
7 there was probably something, but I don't 7 Headquarters?
8 know. 8 A. That's correct.
9 Q. You don't know what it is? 9 Q. Okay. Let me ask you, are you
10 A. No. 10 familiar with a document known as the Coastal
11 Q. Well, we wouldn't be interested in 11 Engineering Manual?
12 that anyway. 12 A. Not in great detail. I know it
13 MR. O'DONNELL: 13 exists. I seen it. But I am not very
14 Robin, if you would produce that, 14 familiar with the contents.
15 that would be great. Thank you. 15 Q. Is there anyone in the New Orleans
16 EXAMINATION BY MR. O'DONNELL: 16 District who is more familiar with it than you
17 Q. Anything else relevant to the field 17 are?
18 between 1966 and the present for designing and 18 A. Yes.
19 constructing levees? 19 Q. Who's that?
20 A. Possibly guide specifications for 20 A. Nancy Powell.
21 the actual construction process. 21 Q. Who?
22 Q. What are they? 22 A. Nancy Powell, our Chief of
23 A. Typical contract specifications that 23 Hydraulics Branch.
24 are maybe issued at a national level and then 24 Q. What is the extent of your
25 you may have a locally tailored level for your 25 familiarity with it?
Page 101 Page 103
1 specific area, specific types of projects. 1 A. Used it as a training tool in

2 And those form the basis of the construction 2 college. That's probably my greatest extent.
3 specs as a starting point. Then you would 3 Since then, I have not been into the hydraulic
4 look at the site specific conditions and do 4 technical details enough to go to that manual
5 some further tailoring if necessary. 5 on a great occasion.
6 Q. So this might be a standard 6 Q. Okay. Well, I'll ask you what I can
7 specification for purchasing borrow, 7 and then I'll confer with Robert later -- with
8 purchasing clay or rock, and then you vary it 8 Robin whether we need to talk to Nancy
9 through -- 9 Powell. Okay? I may get what I need out of
10 A. No, not at all. It would be a -- on 10 you.
11 the means of constructing the levee. 11 A. Okay.
12 Q. Okay. 12 Q. I don't mean it that way. But I may
13 A. You know, the technical 13 get what information I need from your answers,
14 requirements. There's probably additional 14 in which case it will suffice. If not, I will
15 guidance that has been issued by the 15 talk to Robin.
16 Mississippi Valley Division to the -- to the 16 MR. O'DONNELL:
17 field offices in design and construction 17 Let's mark this as the next in
18 aspects of levees. 18 order. Number 6. Thank you.
19 Q. Sometimes known as the MVD or LMVD? 19 EXAMINATION BY MR. O'DONNELL:
20 A. Yes. 20 Q. I will identify Number 6 is a
21 Q. What's the "L" in LMVD? 21 segment of a voluminous document. This is the
22 A. Lower Mississippi Valley Division. 22 initial parts of what is known as
23 Q. So when we see comments from LMVD, 23 EM1110-2-1100, issued 30 April 2002 by the
24 it's the Lower Mississippi Valley Division? 24 Army Corps of Engineers and is entitled
25 A. Yes. 25 "Engineering and Design, Coastal Engineering
Page 102 Page 104
26 (Pages 101 to 104)

1 Manual". Do you see that, sir? 1 descriptions of wave calculations and surge
2 A. Yes. 2 calculations and so forth that would provide
3 Q. And after the preparatory material 3 that.
4 that accompanies the manual, if you go to the 4 Q. Was there a predecessor to Exhibit
5 -- like three or four pages in, there's a 5 6?
6 thing called "Table of contents". Do you see 6 A. Yes.
7 that? 7 Q. Do you know what it was?
8 A. Yes. 8 A. No.
9 Q. And we have reproduced in this 9 Q. Do you know when the Corps first
10 Exhibit Number 6 the table of contents. 10 issued a Coastal Engineering Manual,
11 Okay? All right? 11 approximately what time period?
12 A. Yes. 12 A. No, I don't.
13 Q. Okay. And you would agree with me 13 Q. Do you know, are you familiar with a
14 that the entire Coastal Engineering Manual is 14 document called the Shore Protection Manual?
15 a much more voluminous document? 15 A. Vaguely.
16 A. Yes, I would. 16 Q. Okay. What is the Shore Protection
17 Q. Okay. Go to page -- the second page 17 Manual?
18 of the document, "Purpose". Do you see that? 18 A. Don't know the details of it. I
19 A. Yes. 19 would -- again, I would envision what it
20 Q. Would you read that paragraph for 20 entails rather than be able to tell you what
21 me? 21 it entails.
22 A. Sure. 22 Q. Okay.
23 Q. Then I'm going to ask you a few 23 MR. O'DONNELL:
24 questions about it. 24 Robin, I suspect that the
25 A. "The purpose of the Coastal 25 particular questions I have to ask the
Page 105 Page 107
1 Engineering Manual is to provide a 1 witness, he would not know the answer

2 comprehensive technical Coastal Engineering 2 to so I think I am going to see if we
3 document. It includes the basic principles of 3 can't arrange to get her at some
4 the coastal processes, methods for computing 4 point, maybe tomorrow or some other
5 coastal planning and designing parameters, and 5 date. Okay?
6 guidance on how to formulate coastal flood 6 MR. SMITH:
7 studies, shore protection, and navigation 7 Uh-huh (affirmatively).
8 projects. This change 1 to EM1110-2-1100, 30 8 MR. O'DONNELL:
9 April 2003, includes the following changes and 9 Is that all right?
10 updates". 10 MR. SMITH:
11 Q. And then they list them; right? 11 Yes.
12 A. Yes. 12 MR. O'DONNELL:
13 Q. Under what circumstances would the 13 Thank you.
14 field use the Coastal Engineering Manual? 14 EXAMINATION BY MR. O'DONNELL:
15 A. Well, it would be a guidance to the 15 Q. I have nothing further on this
16 field much like the other documents. Here is 16 manual.
17 a body of information on general requirements 17 MR. O'DONNELL:
18 and you still have to apply it to your 18 I have nothing further for the
19 specific design situation. 19 witness unless any of my colleagues
20 Q. Okay. Does the Coastal Engineering 20 have any -- One second, please.
21 give any guidance to the field with regard to 21 (Whereupon a discussion was held
22 the construction of Reach 2 levees along the 22 off the record.)
23 MRGO? 23 MR. O'DONNELL:
24 A. I would suspect it does, but I can't 24 Do you know how soon we could get
25 point that out to you. There should be 25 the '47 manual?
Page 106 Page 108
27 (Pages 105 to 108)

1 MR. SMITH: 1 MR. O'DONNELL:

2 I believe I have got one just a 2 He's here? Oh, I see his pretty
3 couple of blocks away, so at lunch 3 picture. I have seen his face over
4 time I probably could -- 4 there here.
5 MR. O'DONNELL: 5 (Whereupon a discussion was held
6 If Walter could be -- I may want 6 off the record.)
7 to ask him just a couple of questions 7
8 about it. 8 {REPORTER'S NOTE: REMAINDER OF THIS
9 MR. SMITH: 9 PAGE INTENTIONALLY LEFT BLANK.}
10 Right. 10
11 MR. O'DONNELL: 11
12 But I have nothing else to 12
13 cover. Then we'll be done. 13
14 MR. SMITH: 14
15 But then you mean you're finished 15
16 with him? 16
18 Yes, I am. 18
19 MR. SMITH: 19
20 Well, he's planning to stay 20
21 around, so -- 21
23 He wants to see the others -- 23
24 MR. SMITH: 24
25 I'll try to get that to you at 25
Page 109 Page 111
1 noon. 1 VIDEO OPERATOR:

2 MR. O'DONNELL: 2 On the record. This is the video
3 Perfect. Right. And if you 3 deposition of Alfred Naomi.
4 could arrange for Nancy Powell, I 4 Would the Court Reporter please
5 would suspect it's a half hour, an 5 swear in the witness.
6 hour max. 6 TESTIMONY BY
7 MR. SMITH: 7 ALFRED CHARLES NAOMI,
8 We're going to work on that at 8 520 Tallulah Avenue, River Ridge, Louisiana
9 lunch time, too. 9 70123, after having been duly sworn by the
10 MR. O'DONNELL: 10 before-mentioned court reporter, did testify
11 Get her in here and we can do 11 as follows:
12 that. And then I am finished with -- 12 EXAMINATION BY MR. O'DONNELL:
13 other than what we talked about, I'm 13 Q. Good morning, Mr. Naomi.
14 finished with Walter. 14 A. Good morning.
15 MR. SMITH: 15 Q. How are you today?
16 All right. 16 A. Okay.
17 MR. O'DONNELL: 17 Q. You're appearing as one of the
18 Okay? 18 witnesses designated by the Army Corps of
19 MR. SMITH: 19 Engineers under the Article 30 (b)(6) Notice
20 That's great. 20 of Deposition. Have you looked at the Notice
21 MR. O'DONNELL: 21 of Deposition?
22 SO you want to bring your next 22 A. I have.
23 one in? 23 Q. Okay. Fine. We have marked it as
24 MR. SMITH: 24 Exhibit 1. And as I understand it, you'll be
25 He's here. 25 testifying about topic number 3, which is,
Page 110 Page 112
28 (Pages 109 to 112)

1 quote, "From the period 1965 to the present 1 Q. You can look at either one as we go
2 the design and construction of levees and/or 2 along?
3 earthen structures in the areas commonly 3 A. Okay.
4 referred to as the Citrus Back Levee, New 4 Q. Item number 4 you have been
5 Orleans East Levee, and the New Orleans East 5 designated to testify about in our revised
6 Back Levee". 6 notice is, quote, "From the period of 1965 to
7 A. To the best of my knowledge, yes. 7 the present the design and construction of, A,
8 Q. Okay. 8 any earthen structures which Defendants claim
9 MR. O'DONNELL: 9 to be levees within the area commonly known as
10 Let's mark as the next exhibit in 10 Reach 1 of the Mississippi River Gulf Outlet,
11 order this little graphic. 11 otherwise designed as that portion," et
12 MR. ANDRY: 12 cetera, et cetera, et cetera. "And, B, any
13 That's Number 7. 13 earthen constructions which Defendants claim
14 MR. O'DONNELL: 14 to be levees along or adjacent to Reach 2 of
15 As U.S. 702-C Exhibit Number 7. 15 the MRGO as defined," et cetera. Do you see
16 And we can show one of the copies -- 16 that?
17 the Court Reporter's copy to the 17 A. Yes, sir.
18 witness. 18 Q. Just so we're on the same page, if
19 EXAMINATION BY MR. O'DONNELL: 19 you would look at Exhibit Number 5, this map
20 Q. I have placed before you, sir, 20 which comes from the IPET report identifies
21 Exhibit Number 7 for this deposition. 21 Reach 1 as generally that stretch of body of
22 A. Uh-huh (affirmatively). 22 water between the intersection of the IHNC and
23 Q. I believe it's from the IPET 23 Reach 2 of the MRGO. Do you see that?
24 report. Do you see that? 24 A. Yes.
25 A. Yes, I do. 25 Q. Is that your understanding of Reach
Page 113 Page 115
1 Q. And this is some indications of the 1 1?

2 three levees we'll be talking about today. 2 A. That is.
3 Does this look accurate to you, the general 3 Q. Okay. And Reach 2 is described as
4 areas described? 4 the intersection of the MRGO and the GIWW at
5 A. I think so. 5 Reach 1 down at least to a point which I
6 Q. Great. 6 believe is known as Verret turn or whatever.
7 MR. O'DONNELL: 7 Do you see that?
8 Let's mark this as Number 8. 8 A. Yes, I do.
9 By the way, on Number 7, ignore 9 Q. Is that Reach 2 as you understand
10 the text; it came from the B report. 10 it?
11 I am just focusing -- And I will clean 11 A. That's my understanding.
12 it up, if you will, Robin. I am just 12 Q. Okay. Great. Now, Reach 2 actually
13 focusing on the map. The same with 13 goes further for the MRGO than depicted on
14 Number 8. It's another map from the 14 this map. It actually goes to the Gulf of
15 IPET report identifying the lakefront 15 Mexico; right?
16 levee, the Citrus Back Levee, the 16 A. I don't know that.
17 Michoud area, the Michoud Canal, New 17 Q. You don't know that?
18 Orleans East Back Levee, and New 18 A. There's no levees below that so why
19 Orleans East Levee. 19 would the reach go below that?
20 EXAMINATION BY MR. O'DONNELL: 20 Q. Okay. But the MRGO actually extends
21 Q. Do you see that, sir? 21 significantly below what's depicted on the map
22 A. Yes. 22 as Reach 2?
23 Q. Does that generally look accurate, 23 A. I guess it depends on how you define
24 the areas? 24 just what you mean by Reach 2.
25 A. Generally, yes. 25 Q. Well, for our present purposes,
Page 114 Page 116
29 (Pages 113 to 116)

1 Reach 2 will be this approximately, as I 1 management function was moved and I moved with
2 understand it, 12 or 13 mile stretch 2 it. Then around --
3 identified in Exhibit 5 as Reach 2. 3 Q. Let me ask you briefly, if I could,
4 A. All right. That's fine. 4 what was the Mississippi River Channel
5 Q. Is that okay? 5 deepening?
6 A. That's okay. 6 A. The Mississippi River Ship Channel
7 Q. Great. Super. Okay. What's your 7 is -- was deepening the Mississippi River from
8 position at the Army Corps? 8 a 40 foot depth for navigation and I worked on
9 A. At present I am a Branch Chief in 9 getting it deepened to 45 foot navigation
10 the Protection and Restoration Office 10 depth. Ultimately it's authorized to go to
11 responsible for construction of the West Bank 11 55.
12 Hurricane Protection Levee System and all 12 Q. Is there a channel in the
13 floodwalls in Jefferson and St. Charles 13 Mississippi River we're talking about?
14 Parish. 14 A. Yes, the navigation channel.
15 Q. Okay. 15 Q. Is that in the middle?
16 A. And some other ancillary duties 16 A. It's right -- It varies. It's where
17 related to Category 5 hurricane protection. 17 the deep water is.
18 Q. So right now your immediate 18 Q. How long a stretch is it that you
19 responsibilities don't involve Reach 1 or 19 were involved with?
20 Reach 2 of the MRGO? 20 A. From the Gulf of Mexico to Baton
21 A. That's correct. 21 Rouge.
22 Q. Tell me briefly your employment 22 Q. How many miles is that?
23 history with the Corps. When did you start? 23 A. 230-something miles.
24 A. I started in February of 1971 right 24 Q. Okay. And did that primarily
25 out of college. Started with the training 25 involve dredging?
Page 117 Page 119
1 program for a year; took a permanent position 1 A. Dredging.

2 in what we -- what was at that time called 2 Q. Okay. Great. Super. And after
3 Relocations Unit. It became Relocations 3 that stint, what was your next assignment at
4 Section, where we handled relocations of 4 the Corps?
5 highways, utilities that got in the way of 5 A. Okay. Well, I got another promotion
6 some of our projects. Then around '77, '78 I 6 to be a Senior Project Manager in around 1998,
7 got a promotion to work in the Red River 7 whereupon I took over different projects. I
8 Waterways Section as a project engineer. We 8 took the Ship Channel project with me and also
9 were responsible for putting design documents 9 took on the Davis Pond Freshwater Diversion
10 together for the Red River Waterway Project in 10 Project, which is a wetlands restoration type
11 central Louisiana. 11 project on the west bank of the Mississippi
12 Q. What kind of a waterway is that? 12 River. And ultimately became responsible for
13 A. It was a shallow draft, 12 foot 13 the Lake Pontchartrain and Vicinity Hurricane
14 shallow draft navigation channel from the 14 Protection Project around sometime in summer
15 Mississippi River to Shreveport. 15 of '98.
16 Q. Okay. 16 Q. And what did that responsibility for
17 A. In '82, I moved into Project 17 the Lake Pontchartrain and Vicinity Project
18 Management Branch within our Engineering 18 entail?
19 Division and started working on Mississippi 19 A. Well, as Senior Project Manager my
20 River Ship Channel deepening project, and that 20 role as -- is to mainly make sure that we have
21 function was eventually shifted to work 21 proper funding, we have the proper resources
22 directly under the Colonel out of our 22 to do the work, handle all of the budgeting,
23 Engineering Div- -- moved from our Engineering 23 keeping the District Engineer briefed and
24 Division to work directly under the Colonel 24 fully informed as to the project issues.
25 that is District Engineer; all the project 25 Coordinating the contracts, making sure that
Page 118 Page 120
30 (Pages 117 to 120)

1 all of the various participants on our design 1 the engineering profession. You could be a
2 team are working together, we're getting the 2 hydrologic engineer, a geotechnical engineer,
3 real estate we need. General project 3 other types of engineers within the civil
4 coordination type roles and responsibilities. 4 engineering profession. And you get your
5 Q. Okay. And how long did you have 5 license based on your experience in those
6 that job? 6 particular areas.
7 A. Well, I had that until earlier this 7 Q. Right. Have you had a chance to
8 year when I got promoted to Branch Chief. 8 look at or know anything about the Complaint
9 Q. And you no longer have that 9 in the Robinson case that we're here for
10 responsibility? 10 today?
11 A. I do not. 11 A. I looked at it.
12 Q. So for a period of time of 12 Q. Okay. And have you looked at any of
13 approximately, give or take, nine years were 13 the materials that were involved with the
14 you the senior official in the New Orleans 14 Government's motion to dismiss our Complaint?
15 District of the Army Corps of Engineers 15 A. What I could understand of it. I
16 responsible for the Lake Pontchartrain and 16 looked at it, but -- Yeah.
17 Vicinity Project? 17 Q. Have you read Judge Duval's ruling
18 A. The senior official is the District 18 on the motion?
19 Engineer. I was the Senior Project Manager 19 A. I did not.
20 for that particular project. 20 Q. Okay. Did you have any involvement
21 Q. And you reported to the District 21 with IPET?
22 Engineer? 22 A. No.
23 A. Yes. 23 Q. Okay.
24 Q. Okay. What is your professional 24 A. Only -- The decision chronology was
25 background? 25 not part of IPET as I understand it, but the
Page 121 Page 123
1 A. I'm a civil engineer; graduated from 1 IPET report I was not involved with other than
2 the University of Louisiana, Lafayette in '71; 2 occasionally looking at it from a review
3 got a Master's degree from Tulane University 3 perspective. But I was not involved with the
4 in engineering in '75. I'm a Registered 4 preparation of it.
5 Professional Engineer in the state of 5 Q. Okay. Because you have had such a
6 Louisiana. 6 rich and varied history, I think I'll try to
7 Q. Okay. And for your entire 7 get from you -- I just need a brief org chart
8 engineering career have you worked at the Army 8 for the Army Corps of Engineers starting with
9 Corps? 9 the New Orleans District, the Vicksburg,
10 A. Yes, in New Orleans. 10 whatever, and then Headquarters.
11 Q. In New Orleans. Are you a 11 A. Okay.
12 geotechnical engineer? 12 Q. Starting with the New Orleans
13 A. I am not. 13 District, as I understand it, there's someone
14 Q. And what is a geotechnical engineer? 14 who is overall in charge, it's a Colonel --
15 A. Geotechnical engineer, it best 15 A. Uh-huh (affirmatively).
16 handles subsurface identification of designs 16 Q. -- usually?
17 for projects, looking at soils and what they 17 A. Yes.
18 can -- loads they can bear, things like that. 18 Q. And what's title of that person?
19 Q. Is that a sub-specialty of being a 19 A. He's the District Commander,
20 civil engineer? 20 District Engineer. He usually a full Colonel.
21 A. Yes, it is. 21 Q. Not a lay person?
22 Q. Is it separately licensed? 22 A. Oh, no. It's a military engineer.
23 A. I don't think it's separately 23 Q. Okay. Has there ever been a lay
24 licensed per se. I mean, you get -- you get 24 person?
25 -- you can specialize in various features of 25 A. Not to my knowledge.
Page 122 Page 124
31 (Pages 121 to 124)

1 Q. Okay. Quickly, who is the number 1 A. Yes.

2 two person? 2 Q. Okay. And you're in which branch?
3 A. Well, he has a Deputy, usually a 3 A. I'm in what's termed the West Bank
4 Lieutenant Colonel as well as a civilian 4 and Vicinity Floodwalls Branch and the
5 deputy who is the Deputy District Engineer for 5 Protection and Restoration Office, which is
6 project management. So he has two deputies 6 part of Project Management, Programs and
7 basically on a normal basis. 7 Project Management Division.
8 Q. But the lay person's the Deputy 8 Q. Okay. So you're the head of that
9 Director? 9 branch?
10 A. Deputy District Engineer for Project 10 A. Yes, sir.
11 Management. 11 Q. How many branches are there in your
12 Q. And the military person is? 12 division?
13 A. He's just the Deputy District 13 A. Well, let's see. It's one, two,
14 Engineer. 14 three, four, five, six.
15 Q. Okay. And to whom does the civilian 15 Q. Does one of those branches have to
16 deputy report? 16 do with the LPV?
17 A. To the Colonel. 17 A. No.
18 Q. Okay. And the military deputy as 18 Q. Where is --
19 well? 19 A. It is within the Protection
20 A. The same. 20 Restoration Office at present, but not under
21 Q. Below them in the pecking order of 21 my branch.
22 the organization, who is next? 22 Q. When the LPV was being designed and
23 A. Well, there's division chiefs. 23 constructed, do you know which division it was
24 There's various divisions and offices within 24 in?
25 the organization that have various roles and 25 A. It was in Engineering Division.
Page 125 Page 127
1 responsibilities. 1 Q. But it's no longer there?

2 Q. In New Orleans -- I'm sorry, I 2 A. The management of it? The project
3 didn't mean to step on your lines. 3 management of it?
4 A. No, that's fine. 4 Q. Yes. Yes.
5 Q. In New Orleans, how many divisions 5 A. No, it's not in Engineering
6 are there? 6 Division.
7 A. I don't know offhand. I know we 7 Q. And which division is it in?
8 have five major technical type divisions. 8 A. It's in Planning Programs and
9 There are other divisions that handle things 9 Project Management Division.
10 like human -- offices that handle things like 10 Q. So there is an LPV branch?
11 human resources and things like that. 11 A. No.
12 Q. Do you know the five technical 12 Q. Okay?
13 branches? 13 A. No, there is not an LPV branch.
14 A. There's Engineering Division, which 14 Q. Okay. Who runs the LPV operation
15 Walter Baumy is the chief. There's 15 right now day-to-day, the senior person?
16 Construction Division; Real Estate Division; 16 A. The Senior Project Manager is
17 there's Programs -- Planning Programs and 17 someone named Carl Anderson who was promoted
18 Project Management Division. And I'm trying 18 to that position.
19 to remember the other. Operations Division. 19 Q. And what's his title?
20 Q. Okay. Engineering; Construction; 20 A. Senior Project Manager.
21 Real Estate; Planning Programs and Project 21 Q. For the LPV?
22 Management; and Operations. 22 A. Yes.
23 A. Correct. 23 Q. And he reports to the Division
24 Q. Okay. And within each division I 24 Chief?
25 take it there's branches? 25 A. He reports to his Branch Chief, Bret
Page 126 Page 128
32 (Pages 125 to 128)

1 Herr, H E R R. 1 organization are there in the United States?

2 Q. I'm sorry, I meant -- Bret Herr is 2 A. I don't know offhand. There's a
3 the Branch Chief? 3 bunch about of them, though.
4 A. Is his Branch Chief. 4 Q. Who commands that Division?
5 Q. And what branch is that called? 5 A. Usually divisions are -- Our
6 A. That is called the -- I believe the 6 Division's commanded by General Crear.
7 title is Restoration Branch. 7 Q. How do you spell his name?
8 Q. Okay. And you had responsibilities 8 A. C R E E R.
9 for the LPV for approximately nine years; 9 Q. He's an engineer?
10 right? 10 MR. SMITH:
11 A. Uh-huh (affirmatively). 11 I believe it may be C R E A R.
12 Q. You were the Senior Project 12 THE WITNESS:
13 Manager? 13 I'm sorry. A R.
14 A. Yes. 14 MR. SMITH:
15 Q. In which branch were you at that 15 But it's shown on Exhibit 6 that
16 time? 16 was marked.
17 A. Well, our structure has changed so 17 THE WITNESS:
18 we were -- we were in a different -- The 18 I'm sorry. I don't know his
19 organization was quite different from what we 19 biography. I assume he's an engineer,
20 have now. So the Protection and Restoration 20 but I don't know.
21 operation office did not exist. This is a 21 EXAMINATION BY MR. O'DONNELL:
22 creation from a post-Katrina environment. So 22 Q. C R E A R. Okay.
23 the structure in the pre-Katrina environment 23 Now, the Mississippi Valley
24 was quite different. 24 Division, how is it organized with
25 Q. Okay. When did -- The change 25 particularity to the LPV?
Page 129 Page 131
1 occurred after Katrina? 1 A. That's a good question. Basically

2 A. Yes. 2 we have what's called -- They do teams. Right
3 Q. Okay. We're going to go through 3 now, the current setup is that each -- there's
4 quite a few -- a chronology of events that you 4 areas within the Division office that are
5 and others were involved with after 1965. Was 5 teams related to each District within that
6 the structure of the organization, the 6 Division. We have six Districts from Rock
7 District office, from '65 or '6 up to Katrina 7 Island all the way down to New Orleans and
8 pretty much the same? Stat? It didn't 8 there are teams that are set up to handle
9 change? 9 workload from each of the Districts. And so
10 A. That's hard to say, because there's 10 it's a team type of setup.
11 reorganizations within divisions that occur on 11 Q. So there would be a New Orleans
12 almost a constant basis. It's nothing static 12 team?
13 about the organization. We could be here all 13 A. Yeah. You -- Yeah.
14 day in talking about it. 14 Q. Cutting across disciplines or
15 Q. No, but I think when we get to a 15 specialties?
16 particular document I'll ask you who reported 16 A. Yes.
17 to who. 17 Q. Okay. Fine. And then the General,
18 A. Sure. And we can do that. 18 Crear of the MVD, reports to Headquarters?
19 Q. Great. Let's move from the District 19 A. Yes.
20 Office to Vicksburg. What's title of that 20 Q. And direct to the commanding --
21 place? 21 A. He reports to General Reilly who's
22 A. Mississippi Valley Division. 22 the Chief of Civil Works.
23 Q. Mississippi Valley Division. 23 Q. And to whom does General Reilly
24 A. MVD. 24 report?
25 Q. How many divisions in the Corps 25 A. Well, the Chief of Engineers. And
Page 130 Page 132
33 (Pages 129 to 132)

1 it's currently General Van Antwerp. 1 Q. So from even before 1965?

2 Q. Van -- 2 A. I think there was some discussion
3 A. Antwerp, like the city in Belgium. 3 pre-'65, yes.
4 Q. How ironic. Okay. And prior to him 4 Q. I have asked my colleague to get a
5 it was Strouk? 5 copy, and I will mark that when he comes back,
6 A. Strock. 6 and if he gets back before lunch we'll mark
7 Q. Strock. S T R O -- 7 it, and I will go over that with you just
8 A. That's right. 8 briefly.
9 Q. S T R O C K? 9 A. Sure.
10 A. Yeah. 10 Q. But that was a document you read to
11 Q. And he resigned or retired within 11 sort of refresh your recollection?
12 the last year? 12 A. Believe me, it's massive, but I did
13 A. I think so, yes. 13 go over some of the budgetary issues.
14 Q. All right. Great. And the Chief of 14 Q. How long is it?
15 Engineers reports to whom? 15 A. Well, hundreds of pages.
16 A. Well, Assistant Secretary of the 16 Q. Okay. Great. What else did you
17 Army for Civil Works, he's a political 17 look at besides that?
18 appointee of the Defense Department. 18 A. That's about it, really. I looked
19 Q. Assistant Secretary of Army for 19 at some budgetary documents, but nothing of
20 Civil Works? 20 any detail.
21 A. Yes. 21 Q. I have just been handed by Mrs.
22 Q. And to whom does he or she report? 22 Nelson a document called "Decision Making
23 A. Secretary of the Army, I presume. 23 Chronology for the LPV HPP, Draft Final Report
24 Q. Who in turn reports to the Secretary 24 for the Headquarters, U.S. Army Corps of
25 of Defense? 25 Engineers, submitted to the Institute for
Page 133 Page 135
1 A. Who reports to the President. 1 Water Resources of the U.S. Army Corps of
2 Q. And then to the President. Okay. 2 Engineers, Douglas Wooly," W O O L Y, "Leonard
3 A. That's correct. 3 Shapman," S H A P M A N, "June, 2007." Is
4 Q. POTUS. President of the United 4 that what you're referring to?
5 States. 5 A. That's correct.
6 A. Yes. 6 Q. This is a publicly available
7 Q. Secret Service. Okay. Can you tell 7 document on the Internet?
8 us what, if any, documents you reviewed before 8 A. It is. It is.
9 you came here today for your deposition? 9 MR. O'DONNELL:
10 A. I briefly went over the chronology 10 For the sake of the environment,
11 report, looking at budgetary issues that -- 11 if it's okay with Robin, I will mark
12 how the project was funded. Did not go into 12 the first page as the next exhibit and
13 much more detail than that. 13 we can deem it an exhibit?
14 Q. Well, you looked at a lot of it so 14 MR. SMITH:
15 we'll talk about it. 15 Yes.
16 A. Well, yeah, we -- some of it anyway. 16 MR. O'DONNELL:
17 Q. The chronology report, what is that 17 Is that fair? I just don't want
18 document? 18 to --
19 A. The Decision Chronology Report was 19 MR. SMITH:
20 prepared at the request of the Corps by -- by 20 Agreed.
21 professors and experts to basically to provide 21 MR. O'DONNELL:
22 a chronology of all the happenings from the 22 Okay.
23 time of authorization, actually 23 MR. ANDRY:
24 pre-authorization of the project, to the 24 8.
25 Katrina time frame. 25 MR. O'DONNELL:
Page 134 Page 136
34 (Pages 133 to 136)

1 It's Number 8. 1 Q. Okay. And this was the legislation

2 THE WITNESS: 2 authorizing the Lake Pontchartrain and
3 This was 8 (indicating). 3 Vicinity Hurricane Protection Project?
4 (Whereupon a discussion was held 4 A. That's correct.
5 off the record.) 5 Q. Look at page 1077, if you would, --
6 MR. O'DONNELL: 6 A. Okay.
7 Exhibit 9. We'll keep that. 7 Q. -- please. I have marked in the
8 EXAMINATION BY MR. O'DONNELL: 8 margin. I'll represent it wasn't in the
9 Q. Let me ask you about -- I have 9 original obviously. There's a paragraph --
10 actually had the pleasure of reading this 10 Could you read that for us, "The project for
11 document shortly after it came out. Did you 11 hurricane flood"?
12 have any role in giving any information to the 12 A. Sure. "The project for hurricane
13 professors when they prepared this? 13 flood protection on Lake Pontchartrain
14 A. Yes, I did. 14 Louisiana is hereby authorized substantially
15 Q. Were you interviewed for it? 15 in accordance with the recommendations of the
16 A. Yes. 16 Chief of Engineer -- Chief of Engineers in
17 Q. Okay. Great. And to your 17 House Document number 231, the 89th Congress,
18 knowledge, is it generally an accurate record 18 except that the recommendations of the
19 of the chronology of the events with regard to 19 Secretary of the Army in that document shall
20 the implementation of the -- it's the -- 20 apply with respect to the SEPA lock feature of
21 shorthand, LPV? I said LPV, but LPV? 21 the project. The estimated cost is
22 A. Yes, that's fine. 22 $56,235,000."
23 Q. Is this generally an accurate -- 23 Q. And this law was enacted on October
24 A. Yes, I think so. 24 27, 1965.
25 Q. Okay. Other than the decision and 25 A. Yes, sir.
Page 137 Page 139
1 chronology report, did you review anything 1 Q. This statute was enacted within the
2 else in preparation for your deposition today? 2 couple of months of Hurricane Betsy; correct?
3 A. Not really. 3 A. That's sounds -- That's correct.
4 Q. Okay. Great. 4 MR. O'DONNELL:
5 MR. O'DONNELL: 5 I'm going to mark House Document
6 I'll mark this as Number -- 6 number 231 as our next in order.
7 MR. ANDRY: 7 MR. ANDRY:
8 10. 8 It's 11.
9 EXAMINATION BY MR. O'DONNELL: 9 MR. O'DONNELL:
10 Q. 10. I have put before you as 10 Exhibit Number 11.
11 Exhibit Number 10, sir, Public Law Number 11 EXAMINATION BY MR. O'DONNELL:
12 89-298. 12 Q. Sir, I have put before you a fairly
13 A. Uh-huh (affirmatively). 13 voluminous document which we have marked as
14 Q. It's not the entire document. If 14 Exhibit Number 11. Do you recognize this as
15 you're familiar with the document, it's 15 House Document number 231?
16 voluminous. It is the first page and then it 16 A. Yes. Yes. It's a letter of the
17 is pages 1074 and 1077 from volume 79 of the 17 Secretary of the Army transmitting the report.
18 U.S. Statutes at large. Just to be clear, 18 Q. Correct. And typically for these
19 it's pages 1073, 1074 and 1077. And this, 19 kind of reports, there's actually layers of
20 I'll represent to you, is the Flood Control 20 approval, are there not, as you go through the
21 Act of 1965. Are you generally familiar with 21 document?
22 this? 22 A. Yes. Sure.
23 A. Yes, I am. 23 Q. Okay. Have you looked at this
24 Q. Have you seen this before? 24 report in the past?
25 A. Yes, I have. 25 A. I have looked at it in the past,
Page 138 Page 140
35 (Pages 137 to 140)

1 yes. 1 characteristics. I think they looked at

2 Q. Okay. Go, if you would, please, to 2 historical type storms and tried to develop
3 7. 3 what they thought were the characteristics
4 A. Page 7? 4 that we should use.
5 Q. Yes, sir. 5 Q. What were the characteristics, the
6 A. Paragraph 7? 6 different characteristics?
7 Q. Yes. 7 A. I don't have them right before me.
8 A. Okay. 8 I mean, they were different wind speeds and
9 Q. Are you familiar with the term 9 velocities and things like that, and it -- I
10 "Standard Project Hurricane"? 10 would have to go back and look at the actual
11 A. Yes. 11 --
12 Q. What the Corps proposed to Congress 12 Q. Wind speed and velocity were two of
13 in House Document 231, which the Congress 13 the variables?
14 approved, was to build a hurricane protection 14 A. Storm size, path. I mean, there's
15 system for the designated area of greater New 15 all kind of meteorological issues that you
16 Orleans according to a Standard Hurricane 16 have to look at when you are designing for
17 Project dimension, did they not? 17 these types of storms.
18 A. Yes. 18 Q. The current nomenclature of the
19 Q. And we have here under paragraph 7 a 19 Simpson Saffir scale of Categories 1 through 5
20 second sentence beginning "Accordingly". I 20 was not in existence then; correct?
21 have underlined part of the sentence. Would 21 A. It was not.
22 you mind reading that for us, sir? 22 Q. When did that scale come into use?
23 A. "Accordingly, for design purposes of 23 A. Sometime in the '70s, I think.
24 hurricanes having forces that may be expected 24 Q. Was that developed by the National
25 from the most severe combination of 25 Weather Service or its successor?
Page 141 Page 143
1 meteorological conditions reasonably 1 A. I don't know who developed it. It

2 characteristic of the region, it was routed 2 may have been.
3 along several likely paths." 3 Q. Okay. Anyway, so the Corps' mandate
4 Q. Just the rest of the sentence, if 4 from Congress was to build a hurricane
5 you would. 5 protection system according to a Standard
6 A. Oh, "At different speeds of 6 Project Hurricane dimensions; correct?
7 translation for each to determine the 7 A. As defined in this document. Yes.
8 conditions critical to each shore." 8 Q. House document 231; right?
9 Q. Is it your understanding of 9 A. Yes.
10 definition of Standard Project Hurricane as a 10 Q. Let's go, if you would, please, to
11 hurricane having forces that may be expected 11 page 9.
12 from the most severe combination of 12 A. Okay.
13 meteorological conditions, reasonably 13 Q. Paragraph 12 sets forth what the
14 characteristic of the region? 14 reporting officers recommend. Do you see
15 A. Yes. 15 that?
16 Q. Okay. What is the origins of SPH, 16 A. Yes.
17 for short, Standard Project Hurricane? 17 Q. And it's a fairly extensive list of
18 A. That was developed by the National 18 works, but if we go down toward the bottom, I
19 Weather Service. 19 underlined a sub-paragraph -- sub-sentence,
20 Q. Do you know approximately when? 20 whatever, "Construction of a new levee". Do
21 A. It was in the late '50s. I think 21 you see that?
22 '57, something like that. 22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Okay. And how did they develop 23 Q. Would you read that portion for me,
24 that? Do you know generally? 24 sir?
25 A. I don't know. They came up with the 25 A. "Construction of a new levee
Page 142 Page 144
36 (Pages 141 to 144)

1 extending from the Inner Harbor Canal along 1 approved.

2 the south side of the Gulf Outlet Channel to 2 Q. Okay. So the initial authorization
3 Bayou Dupre; thence, westward to the 3 that we see here from the Flood Control Act of
4 Mississippi River levee at Violet; together 4 1965 in House document 231 was less -- was
5 with rip-rap slope protection along the 5 smaller in scale than what was ultimately
6 navigation channel and flood gates and 6 authorized?
7 strengthening of the existing floodwall at 7 A. That's correct.
8 Mandeville on the north shore." 8 Q. Do you remember approximately what
9 Q. Okay. Would you look at Exhibit 5, 9 year Congress authorized at the request of the
10 please, which is the yellowish chart? 10 St. Bernard Parish folks the enlargement of
11 A. I have it somewhere. 11 the protected --
12 Here it is. I've got it. 12 A. I don't know if it was
13 Q. You see that chart? 13 Congressionally --
14 A. Yes. 14 Q. I'm sorry, you and I both talk
15 Q. What is described here seems to be 15 quickly, and I apologize. I'm stepping on
16 the section in red beginning on the left of 16 your lines.
17 the IHNC. Do you see that? 17 A. I'm sorry.
18 A. Yes. 18 Q. No, let me just finish the
19 Q. Then cursing sort of in an east-west 19 question. Okay? Because we need a record
20 direction along what's called GIWW; right? 20 here.
21 A. Right. 21 A. All right. Sure.
22 Q. Making a fairly sharp right turn and 22 Q. The enlargement requested by the St.
23 going down to what's designated as Reach 2 -- 23 Bernard folks that and Congress and the
24 A. Uh-huh (affirmatively). 24 President enacted, do you remember
25 Q. -- just about where the tip of the 25 approximately what year that was?
Page 145 Page 147
1 white arrow is and then stopping there. 1 A. I do not.

2 Right? 2 Q. Okay. But as you understand it,
3 A. No. 3 after that enactment the LPV hurricane
4 Q. Okay. Did it also contemplate the 4 protection project plan would embrace the
5 remainder leading over to the Mississippi 5 entire area shown in red on Exhibit 5?
6 River? 6 A. That's correct. As far as this
7 A. If you read the definition, the 7 particular area is concerned.
8 project as defined initially, the levee 8 Q. So when you got involved with it, it
9 terminated at Bayou Dupre and then returned to 9 was already the expanded red area?
10 the Mississippi River. 10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Thence westward to the Mississippi 11 Q. Great. In fact, you got involved in
12 River levee at Violet; right? 12 19- --
13 A. Right. Along the Violet Canal. 13 A. '98.
14 That waterway you see there in blue is the 14 Q. Okay. And were you responsible for
15 Violet Canal. So the project as originally 15 all segments of it?
16 envisioned ended at the levee along the MRGO 16 A. Yes.
17 at Bayou Dupre. 17 Q. The IHNC, Reach 1 and Reach 2?
18 Q. Got it. Was there a subsequent 18 A. Yes.
19 enactment by Congress that authorized going 19 Q. And the Violet portion?
20 further down and then making that turn? 20 A. No. That's not part of the project.
21 A. There was a sup- -- supplemental 21 Q. Oh, it's not part of the project?
22 report that was done at the request of the 22 A. No, it's not.
23 folks in St. Bernard to extend the levee 23 Q. So when Congress said, or when the
24 southward. I think a report was done and it 24 House document 231 said "Thence westward to
25 set up the line, and that extension was 25 the Mississippi River," that wasn't done?
Page 146 Page 148
37 (Pages 145 to 148)

1 A. The project, as we discussed 1 report. This was an interim survey that we

2 earlier, was modified to extend the project 2 did to determine if there was a Federal
3 down to where the end of that white arrow is 3 interest, as I understand it. And again, the
4 in Reach 2. 4 way they did things back then, we don't
5 Q. Yes. 5 necessarily do them that way now, but my
6 A. And that's the new definition of the 6 understanding was this survey report was
7 project which supplanted the Violet, and it 7 written to -- by -- for the District Engineer
8 led along Violet Canal. 8 to send to Headquarters to indicate that there
9 Q. So it was taken out of the plan? 9 was a Federal interest and that we should seek
10 A. That's correct. 10 authorization for further construction.
11 Q. Have flood structures of any kind 11 Q. It's part of the process that leads
12 been built in the expanded area? 12 to the enactment of the legislature; right?
13 A. You mean "structures", you mean like 13 A. That's correct. Yes, sir.
14 levees? 14 Q. Okay. Great. Do you know whether
15 Q. Yes. 15 the initial survey report was done?
16 A. Oh, yes. 16 A. I don't know. It was sometime in
17 Q. So there's earthen levees or 17 the '50s, but I really don't remember the
18 whatever -- 18 date.
19 A. Yes, all the way. 19 Q. Go forward, back about to about page
20 Q. -- and all along this red area? 20 14, if you would, please.
21 A. The whole area has levees, yes. 21 A. Okay.
22 Q. Great. 22 Q. This seems to be a report of the
23 MR. O'DONNELL: 23 Mississippi River Commission. Do you see
24 Just to make the record clear, 24 that?
25 the Plaintiffs have had a issue with 25 A. Yes.
Page 149 Page 151
1 terminology called "levees". We'll 1 Q. Dated 30 January, 1963?

2 use "levees" in this case. We're not 2 A. Uh-huh (affirmatively).
3 conceding that they're what Congress 3 Q. The subject is the interim survey
4 mandated or what would qualify for the 4 report?
5 Flood Control Act immunity, but just 5 A. Okay.
6 to make my record easy, we will just 6 Q. So is it -- is this -- is it likely
7 use "levees", but I am not agreeing -- 7 that the District Engineer's report was
8 MR. SMITH: 8 attached to this?
9 Agreed. Agreement. 9 A. I think, yes. Yes.
10 MR. O'DONNELL: 10 Q. So we could put an approximate date
11 Okay. Thank you. 11 somewhere in January --
12 EXAMINATION BY MR. O'DONNELL: 12 A. Early '60s, yeah.
13 Q. Turn if you would, please, sir, to 13 Q. Early '60s. Okay. 1963 perhaps?
14 page 17 of the document. 14 A. Yeah. Yeah.
15 A. Okay. 15 Q. Okay. Great. In the first part
16 Q. And it's actually the first page of 16 that I have marked in the margin there --
17 a section called "Report of the District 17 A. It's on page 17?
18 Engineer". Do you see that? 18 Q. Yes, sir. Thank you.
19 A. Yes. 19 A. Okay.
20 Q. And what is the Report of the 20 Q. There's a sentence that begins "The
21 District Engineer? What's its significance? 21 surges are intensified," and it's referring to
22 A. I'll have -- I believe this is an 22 storm surges. Do you see that?
23 interim survey report -- 23 A. Uh-huh (affirmatively).
24 Q. Okay. 24 Q. Would you read that sentence for us,
25 A. -- which preceded the authorization 25 please?
Page 150 Page 152
38 (Pages 149 to 152)

1 A. "The surges are intensified by local 1 endangered, and hazards to health created."
2 wind effects and the combination of waves and 2 Q. Now, the area that they're
3 surges causes overtopping -- causes 3 describing, if we look at -- Let's look at
4 overtopping of the protected works along the 4 Number 12 again. Okay? Right in front of
5 shores of the lake." 5 you.
6 Q. No, just stop there. They're 6 A. Uh-huh (affirmatively).
7 referring to Lake Pontchartrain; right? 7 Q. Is that the area that's somewhat in
8 A. Yes. 8 a triangle here that they're talking about?
9 MR. O'DONNELL: 9 The yellowish area --
10 And let's mark this as the next 10 A. Well, it --
11 exhibit in order. 11 Q. -- adjacent to Lake Borgne?
12 MR. ANDRY: 12 A. It's referring to the eastern
13 12. 13 portion of the area, which I would interpret
14 EXAMINATION BY MR. O'DONNELL: 14 as being the eastern portion of the project
15 Q. I have put before you Exhibit 12, 15 from Lake Pontchartrain down past Lake Borgne
16 which is another map of the area. 16 all the way to the Mississippi River. I mean,
17 A. Uh-huh (affirmatively). 17 I think it's the entire eastern area we're
18 Q. This one deals with location of 18 talking about.
19 levee breaches and distressed levee sections. 19 Q. So it would be the swath --
20 This is from the ILIT report. You familiar 20 A. From -- From the -- where the --
21 with that report? 21 what we call -- well, where it intersects with
22 A. The what? 22 Lake Pontchartrain levee going southward
23 Q. ILIT, Independent Levee 23 generally, going -- heading back to the
24 Investigation Team report? 24 Mississippi River. Everything is the eastern
25 A. I have heard of it. I haven't 25 portion of the area. This is --
Page 153 Page 155
1 gotten into it. 1 Q. Could you hold it up for the camera

2 Q. The CEDE report? You have not 2 and just show us exactly where you're
3 looked at it? 3 depicting?
4 A. No. 4 A. Okay. From Lake Pontchartrain all
5 Q. Okay. Anyway, it's from another 5 the way down to where it turns back towards
6 document. And just so we're clear, that's 6 the Mississippi River I consider the eastern
7 Lake Pontchartrain, the blue section at the 7 portion of the project.
8 top. Right? 8 Q. And what this survey concluded was
9 A. That's correct. 9 that this area is subject to flooding,
10 Q. And so when they're talking about 10 correct, during hurricanes?
11 flooding along the lake shore, it's that area 11 A. Yes.
12 in the map here that fronts on the lake? 12 Q. Okay. Now, it says "Overtopping" or
13 A. Yes. Starts on Lake Pontchartrain. 13 "Overtop the existing inadequate protection
14 Q. Okay. Let's go back to page 17 of 14 system seaward of developed land area." In
15 the House Report number 231. Would you read 15 1963 or earlier, what protective system was
16 the next sentence beginning "The eastern 16 even there?
17 portion of the area"? 17 A. Well, there were -- St. Bernard
18 A. Sure. "The eastern portion of the 18 Parish had a local levee I think they termed
19 area is also subject to flooding by surges and 19 40 Arpent Levee.
20 waves that move directly from Lake Borgne, 20 Q. Okay.
21 overtopping the existing inadequate protected 21 A. And that was a local protective
22 systems seaward of the developed land areas. 22 system that existed there. And there may have
23 As a result, residences and industrial 23 been some other levees that were constructed
24 commercial establishments suffer damage. 24 by the Orleans Levee District out there also,
25 Business activities are disrupted, lives 25 but I am not familiar with those.
Page 154 Page 156
39 (Pages 153 to 156)

1 Q. Looking on Exhibit 12, there's a 1 River Gulf Outlet was still under
2 faint line that runs under the word "Ninth 2 construction; correct?
3 Ward", kind of moves down, -- 3 A. I think so.
4 A. Uh-huh (affirmatively). 4 Q. I'll represent to you it started
5 Q. -- comes down toward the word "St. 5 around '58. '63, it was moving along. It was
6 Bernard", and then kind of keeps moving down. 6 finished in '68. But, okay, we're in early
7 Is that your understanding of the approximate 7 '63 here. Okay? Would you read that
8 location of the 40 Arpent Canal? 8 sentence or two for me about the Mississippi
9 A. No. No, the 40 Arpent -- The 40 9 River Gulf Outlet?
10 Arpent Canal -- 10 A. "The Mississippi River Gulf Outlet
11 Q. Levee. 11 provides a deep direct route for the in-flow
12 A. -- or the 40 Arpent Levee? 12 of saline currents from the Gulf of Mexico to
13 Q. Levee. 13 the area along this channel and to Lake
14 A. The 40 Arpent Levee is actually this 14 Pontchartrain, which results have an adverse
15 red line. 15 effect on fishery resources in the area."
16 Q. Oh, that's the 40 Arpent. 16 Continue?
17 A. That's it. 17 Q. Please.
18 Q. So prior to any construction along 18 A. "The Gulf Outlet Channel also will
19 Reach 2 of the MRGO, the only flood protective 19 produce high velocity currents in the Inner
20 work that was in place was that 40 Arpent 20 Harbor Navigation Channel, creating a hazard
21 Canal? 21 to navigation and causing serious scouring
22 A. That's correct. 22 damage, particularly in constricted areas of
23 Q. All right. That sentence we just 23 bridge crossings. These adverse effects can
24 read talks about inadequate protective system 24 be greatly alleviated by constructing a lock
25 seaward of the developed land areas. Do you 25 for navigation and salinity control at the
Page 157 Page 159
1 see that? 1 lake end of the Inner Harbor Navigation Canal

2 A. Yes. 2 at Seabrook. This lock is properly charged as
3 Q. And by "seaward", they were talking 3 a feature of the Gulf Outlet Project. A low
4 toward the direction of Lake Borgne? 4 level lock to -- a low level lock to the
5 A. Let me read that again. "Seaward of 5 height of the existing protective works would
6 the developed area" means that if you're in 6 serve the needs of the Gulf Outlet Project.
7 the developed area and you move seaward, there 7 By increasing the grade of the rock dike and
8 is an inadequate system protecting you from -- 8 the landward gate base section and gates, this
9 So they were determined the 40 Arpent Canal is 9 structure will also serve as an essential part
10 that -- 10 of a hurricane barrier plan by preventing the
11 Q. But seaward is in the direction -- 11 entry of hurricane surges into Lake
12 A. Yes. 12 Pontchartrain through the Gulf Outlet. The
13 Q. -- towards Lake Borgne? Right? 13 incremental cost of raising the lock to serve
14 A. That's correct. 14 a dual purpose of excluding hurricane surges
15 Q. Lake Borgne is an extension of the 15 is properly a charge to the hurricane plan."
16 Gulf of Mexico? 16 Q. Okay. Let me go back and ask you a
17 A. That's correct. 17 couple of particular questions. There's a
18 Q. Continuing on a few sentences, 18 discussion of "the in-flow of saline currents
19 there's a reference to the Mississippi River 19 will have an adverse effect on fishery
20 Gulf Outlet. Do you see that? 20 resources". Was that because of the death of
21 A. Yes. 21 wetlands? Or do you know?
22 Q. You see that sentence that begins 22 A. I don't really know.
23 "The Mississippi River Gulf Outlet"? 23 Q. Fine. It says "The Gulf Outlet
24 A. Uh-huh (affirmatively). 24 Channel will also produce high velocity
25 Q. And in early 1963, the Mississippi 25 currents in the, IHNC creating a hazard," et
Page 158 Page 160
40 (Pages 157 to 160)

1 cetera. Do you see that? 1 continue on in our odyssey through Exhibit

2 A. Yes. 2 11. Would you turn to page 20, please? Thank
3 Q. Do you know what the basis for that 3 you.
4 determination was? 4 A. Okay.
5 A. I assume the hydrologists looked at 5 Q. It's a glossary of terms.
6 it. I don't know. 6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Okay. The Seabrook lock was never 7 Q. And under "Hurricane", item D,
8 constructed; is that correct? 8 there's a definition of Standard Project
9 A. That's correct. 9 Hurricane.
10 Q. On page 18, sir, the first full 10 A. Yes.
11 paragraph begins "The plan of protection". Do 11 Q. "A hurricane that may be expected
12 you see that? 12 from the most severe combination of
13 A. Yes. 13 meteorological conditions that are considered
14 Q. It refers to improvement of the 14 characteristic of the region involved." Do
15 existing levee along the Inner Harbor 15 you see that?
16 Navigation Channel. Do you see that? 16 A. Yes, sir.
17 A. Yes. 17 Q. And then there's a definition
18 Q. Do you know what levee was actually 18 underneath called "Probable maximum
19 there in the early '60s? 19 hurricane".
20 A. I am not certain, but I think it was 20 A. Uh-huh (affirmatively).
21 a levee constructed -- I really don't know. 21 Q. Where the difference seems to be
22 It was not part of the Federal hurricane 22 whether it's reasonably possible as opposed to
23 protection system. It was a levee constructed 23 characteristic? Do you see that?
24 probably as part of the canal construction way 24 A. Yes. Yes, I do.
25 back, and maybe taken over by the Orleans 25 Q. In designing the levees for the
Page 161 Page 163
1 Levee District. That's strictly speculation 1 MRGO, was Probable Maximum Hurricane used at
2 on my part. I don't know for certain. 2 all or was it just Standard Project Hurricane?
3 Q. Do you know when the IHNC was 3 A. The project authorization was for
4 transferred to Federal control, approximately? 4 Standard Project Hurricane.
5 A. I'm not sure. 5 Q. And that's --
6 Q. It was initially a local channel and 6 A. That's what was used.
7 then later became Federal; is that correct? 7 Q. -- the dimensions to which it was
8 A. Constructed by the Port of New 8 built?
9 Orleans, as I understand. 9 A. I believe so.
10 Q. Okay. 10 Q. Okay. If you go to the next page,
11 MR. O'DONNELL: 11 please. There's a definition of hurricane
12 This is probably a good breaking 12 surge height. You see that?
13 point, lunch time. 13 A. Yes, sir.
14 MR. SMITH: 14 Q. And it's described in part as the
15 All right. 15 elevation of the still water level.
16 MR. O'DONNELL: 16 A. Wait a minute. Oh, okay. I'm
17 You want an hour and a half? An 17 sorry. I was looking at the wrong one.
18 hour? An hour and a half? 18 Q. No problem. Hurricane surge
19 VIDEO OPERATOR: 19 height.
20 Off the record. 20 A. Yes.
21 (Recess.) 21 Q. "The elevation of the still water
22 VIDEO OPERATOR: 22 level at a given point resulting from
23 We're on the record. 23 hurricane surge action". Do you see that?
24 EXAMINATION BY MR. O'DONNELL: 24 A. Yes, sir.
25 Q. We're back on the record. We'll 25 Q. And if you just keep that page and
Page 162 Page 164
41 (Pages 161 to 164)

1 just if you would turn to the next page, next 1 have been. I don't think it was.
2 to it, there's a definition of "still water 2 Q. My understand is, say, at the time
3 level". Would you tell us what that is? 3 you took over your responsibilities on the LPV
4 A. Elevation of the water surface if 4 in 19- --
5 all wave action were to cease. 5 A. Summer of '98.
6 Q. Okay. So still water level, as I 6 Q. Summer of '98. Thank you. The
7 understand it, is not calm water. Correct? 7 design grade level at that point for the
8 A. Well, it is. 8 levees along Reach 1, Reach 2 was 17 and a
9 Q. Okay. Is it calm water -- Is it -- 9 half feet, built to 20 feet?
10 Okay. How do I describe this. 10 A. 17 and a half feet was the design
11 A. It's the surge elevation without 11 grade.
12 waves. 12 Q. Design grade. That's where they
13 Q. Without waves. Okay. 13 wanted to end up; right?
14 A. Yes. 14 A. Yes.
15 Q. So the normal water level would be 15 Q. But to get there, the plans called
16 higher because of surge, but it doesn't take 16 for building about another two and a half feet
17 into account waves? 17 because of settlement?
18 A. Say that again, please? 18 A. Well, that's a possibility they
19 Q. Let's assume the water in the MRGO 19 would do that, depending upon the contract and
20 is ordinarily three feet up -- 20 what the situation was at the time. Mostly we
21 A. Yes. 21 build higher and let it settle back, yes.
22 Q. -- the side of the embankment. 22 Q. If the still water level had been
23 A. Yes. 23 determined before construction of these levees
24 Q. The hurricane comes and the water 24 began to be around 13 feet, why was the design
25 goes up to ten feet. 25 grade level chosen to be about 17 and a half
Page 165 Page 167
1 A. All right. 1 feet?

2 Q. Okay. What's the still water 2 A. I believe that takes care of factors
3 level? Three feet or ten feet? 3 like wave run-up.
4 A. Ten feet. 4 Q. Wave run-up. What is wave run-up?
5 Q. Okay. But without taking into 5 Maybe it's defined here.
6 account waves. Correct? 6 A. That's probably -- It better be
7 A. Right. 7 defined because, I -- I am not a hydrologist.
8 Q. In complying with the Congressional 8 Okay?
9 mandate to build a hurricane protection system 9 Q. Right.
10 commensurate with the Standard Project 10 A. It's -- But it's a factor of what --
11 Hurricane, a still water level for Reach 2 and 11 what the wave does as it approaches the
12 Reach 1 of the MRGO was determined; correct? 12 levee. It has something to do with the levee
13 A. I believe so. 13 shape, and Nancy Powell may be able to better
14 Q. Okay. Do you know when that was 14 define that when you talk to her.
15 determined? 15 MR. SMITH:
16 A. I am not sure. 16 Okay. It is defined there if you
17 Q. Approximately. 17 look for it. It's at top of the page.
18 A. In the early '60s, I think. 18 MR. O'DONNELL:
19 Q. Okay. And do you know what it was? 19 I would. Oh, thanks, Robin.
20 A. As I recall, I think it's around 13 20 THE WITNESS:
21 feet. 21 "The dirt elevation of still
22 Q. Right. 12 and a half to 13 feet? 22 water which water rises on the face of
23 A. That's correct. 23 the structure as a result of wave
24 Q. Was that height raised later on? 24 action."
25 A. Not that I am aware of, but it could 25 EXAMINATION BY MR. O'DONNELL:
Page 166 Page 168
42 (Pages 165 to 168)

1 Q. Right. And the waves are being 1 please.

2 generated by the wind? 2 A. Okay.
3 A. Probably so, yes. 3 Q. And describing the area being
4 Q. Right. So you think the still water 4 studied number 2, the Inner Harbor Navigation
5 during a hurricane is going to be about 13 5 Canal is part of the study. Do you see that?
6 feet. The planners account for another 6 A. Yes.
7 measure or margin of additional height, in 7 Q. And indicates by the time of this
8 this case about four and a half feet, because 8 survey in 1963 that the banks had been raised
9 of estimated wave run-up? 9 to about five feet with spoil from the canal.
10 A. That's correct. 10 Do you see that?
11 Q. And what kind of data would they use 11 A. Yes.
12 to determine the estimated wave run-up? 12 Q. But at that point there was no other
13 A. I have no idea. 13 protection; right?
14 Q. Do you know if any testing was done 14 A. Not as far as I know.
15 for that? 15 Q. Do you know whether the design grade
16 A. I have no idea. 16 for the IHNC, Inner Harbor Navigation Canal,
17 Q. Okay. Was the design grade level, 17 was also 17 and a half feet under the LPV?
18 from a planning point of view after the plans 18 A. It was not.
19 were done, always 17 and a half feet for the 19 Q. Do you know what it was?
20 Reach 1 and Reach 2 of the MRGO? 20 A. It varied.
21 A. I think so. 21 Q. Along the route, you mean?
22 Q. When you got there it was that; 22 A. Yeah. Depending on where you were
23 right? 23 in -- or along the Inner Harbor Navigation
24 A. Yes. 24 Canal. I think it was around 14 on average,
25 Q. And it had been for some time before 25 but I would have to look specifically.
Page 169 Page 171
1 that? 1 Q. Does that include the floodwalls?

2 A. Yes. 2 A. Yes.
3 Q. So in the planning process, and 3 Q. Okay. So 14 feet would be whatever
4 we're going to look at these general design 4 earthen embankment there was plus floodwalls,
5 memos probably more than you and I want to, 5 is 14 feet?
6 but we're going to do that, we'll see what the 6 A. Top elevation.
7 design grade level is. But your understanding 7 Q. And was it 14 feet at the time of
8 is, at least fairly early on the goal for 8 Katrina?
9 Reach 1 and Reach 2 was about a height of 9 A. Some were and some were not.
10 about 17 and a half feet after settlement? 10 Q. Some place --
11 A. I believe so, yes. 11 A. Some had subsided, I think.
12 Q. Okay. If you go to page 23, you'll 12 Q. Okay. Looking --
13 see the section 1, "Authorization purpose and 13 A. I couldn't specifically say which
14 scope"? 14 ones.
15 A. Right. 15 Q. Okay. Looking from any one of these
16 Q. There's a reference to a Public Law 16 maps -- Why don't you just take that -- What
17 71 back in 1955? Do you see that? 17 number is that right there?
18 A. Yeah. 18 A. 12.
19 Q. Is it your understanding that the 19 Q. 12. Let's look at 12 for a second.
20 planning process for this hurricane protection 20 Okay? The IHNC is on here. Do you see that?
21 system may have begun at least as early as 21 A. Yes.
22 1955? 22 Q. As you said earlier, it connects
23 A. I believe so. That's what this 23 Lake Pontchartrain to the Mississippi River?
24 would tell me. 24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Okay. Great. Go to page 27, 25 Q. Is that entire body or channel there
Page 170 Page 172
43 (Pages 169 to 172)

1 considered the IHNC? 1 Q. Okay. And to your knowledge, they

2 A. As far as I know, yes. 2 were at design grade or had at least at some
3 Q. Sometimes called the Industrial 3 point achieved design grade along the entire
4 Canal? 4 stretch on both sides?
5 A. Yes. 5 A. At some point perhaps in their
6 Q. Okay. What is the approximate 6 history.
7 length from Lake Pontchartrain where it begins 7 Q. Was there ever a moment in time
8 to the Mississippi River where it ends, or 8 where, on both sides of the IHNC, there was a
9 vice versa? 9 system where everything was at the design
10 A. I don't know. 10 grade?
11 Q. Ten miles at least? 11 A. I don't know.
12 A. Oh, I don't think it's that far. 12 Q. Okay. If you just go to page 28 of
13 Looking at the map, it looks about five 13 the document 231.
14 miles. Maybe six. 14 A. Okay.
15 Q. Okay. So along some of that five 15 Q. There's a description of Chalmette.
16 miles -- and there were -- Withdrawn. I'm 16 Do you see that?
17 sorry. Levees, according to the LPV, had been 17 A. Yes.
18 constructed on both sides of the IHNC up to 18 Q. Now, I think you told me initially
19 the time of Katrina? 19 at the time of this document the Chalmette
20 A. Yes. 20 plan would have gone only down to the Violet
21 Q. And some had reached design grade of 21 Canal and across; correct?
22 -- some sections -- Withdrawn. And some 22 A. Right. Right.
23 sections prior to Katrina had reached design 23 Q. So that's a description we see here;
24 grade of 14 and a half feet and some had not? 24 correct?
25 A. The design grade varied along that 25 A. I assume so. I haven't read it.
Page 173 Page 175
1 canal, but, generally speaking, some were at, 1 Q. There's a description of the locally
2 some were not, as far as I understand. You 2 built back levee. Is that the 40 Arpent
3 know, that's what I hear. 3 Canal?
4 Q. Okay. The post-Katrina planning 4 A. Yes. I would assume so.
5 includes building new or reinforced or 5 Q. And it says the average elevation
6 augmented levees on both sides of the IHNC? 6 along this area is a foot and a half; correct?
7 A. I think mostly floodwalls. 7 A. I don't know that. I assume it is.
8 Q. Floodwalls. Okay. Do you know what 8 Q. That's what it says, isn't it, at
9 the design grade is for the new floodwalls? 9 the bottom?
10 A. No. You would have to ask somebody 10 A. Yes, that's what it says.
11 with Task Force Guardian that was involved 11 Q. Okay. Great. On page 31, paragraph
12 with that. 12 numbered 9, "Source of construction material",
13 Q. We'll probably do that sometime 13 do you see that?
14 later. Not this month. But let me ask you 14 A. Yes.
15 this. And you said that some -- in some 15 Q. In doing their initial survey, it
16 stretches it was not at design grade. Had it 16 was noted that there was not rock readily
17 ever been at design grade before subsidence or 17 available in the area, but it would have to be
18 settlement along the IHNC? 18 imported from out of state?
19 A. I don't know. I assume so. I 19 A. That's correct.
20 wasn't involved with the project when it was 20 Q. Is that still true today?
21 constructed. 21 A. Oh, yes.
22 Q. Okay. So by the time you took over 22 Q. It says you can get clamshells in
23 responsibilities in late 1990s with regard to 23 the area. Are clamshells used for levee
24 the LPV, had the IHNC levees been completed? 24 construction?
25 A. Yes. 25 A. No.
Page 174 Page 176
44 (Pages 173 to 176)

1 Q. Were clamshells used at all in the 1 estimated to be about eight feet?

2 construction of any of the levees or 2 A. It seems that way, yes.
3 enhancements of Reach 1 and Reach 2 of the 3 Q. Okay. Page 45, continuing for two
4 MRGO? 4 lines under 46, there's a subsection D,
5 A. Not to my knowledge. 5 "Surge". Do you see that?
6 Q. Page 33, there's a description of 6 A. Yes.
7 Citrus and New Orleans East. 7 Q. And the top of page 46, it ends with
8 A. Uh-huh (affirmatively). 8 the sentence "Maximum surge heights
9 Q. And if you look at any one of these 9 experienced along the Gulf and Atlantic coasts
10 maps, say Number 7, or Number 8 -- 10 range between 10 and 16 feet." Do you see
11 A. Okay. 11 that?
12 Q. You have Number 7 there? 12 A. Yes, I do.
13 A. Yes. 13 Q. Now, surge from the Gulf of Mexico
14 Q. That is the area described here as 14 can enter the greater New Orleans area in part
15 Citrus Back Levee; correct? 15 through Lake Borgne; correct?
16 A. Let me make sure. 16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Sure. Please. 17 Q. But it would be fair to say, for
18 A. I believe that's correct. 18 example, during a hurricane like Katrina, a
19 Q. Okay. 19 surge that might be 16 feet in the Gulf would
20 A. But it's Citrus also -- It looks 20 diminish by the time it got to Lake Borgne?
21 like here Citrus in New Orleans East describes 21 A. I don't know that. I don't know if
22 lakefront as well. 22 that's true or not.
23 Q. Yes, except maybe in the prior 23 Q. It may or may not be true, depending
24 paragraph talks about lakefront, paragraph 3. 24 on the hurricane?
25 A. Yeah. But if you'll look at that -- 25 A. I don't -- I am not enough of a
Page 177 Page 179
1 and let me look at that again. I want to be 1 hydrologic expert to be able to tell you what
2 -- 2 the surge would do between the Gulf and that
3 Q. Sure. Please. 3 levee specifically across Lake Borgne.
4 A. -- very specific here. I think, and 4 Q. And maybe --
5 I believe, and I have to read this carefully, 5 A. For a major storm, I doubt there
6 but I believe that paragraph D refers to the 6 would be a whole lot of difference.
7 lakefront of New Orleans, but not in East New 7 Q. In fact, let's look at page 46. I
8 Orleans. 8 jumped the gun. I'm sorry. There's a
9 Q. Okay. Great. So it would be west 9 paragraph, a couple of paragraphs under 9-A
10 of the area depicted on Exhibit 7. 10 and B discussing Standard Project Hurricane.
11 A. Yes, it is. 11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Okay. Great. Thank you. If we go 12 Q. Do you see that?
13 for a moment to page 34, we skip the IHNC, 13 A. Yes.
14 Chalmette, Number 5, do you see that? 14 Q. As there's a mention that it would
15 A. Uh-huh (affirmatively). 15 have an estimated frequency of about once
16 Q. Reference in the middle of the page, 16 every 200 years in the study area?
17 "Partial protection is afforded by the 17 A. Yes.
18 remaining area --" I'm sorry, "for the 18 Q. And then down the end of the
19 remaining area by a spoil bank with an 19 paragraph, it says "The occurrence of an SPH
20 elevation of approximately eight feet along 20 for any location in the study area would
21 the south bank of MRGO". Do you see that? 21 produce maximum surge heights of --"
22 A. Yes, I do. 22 A. Uh-huh (affirmatively).
23 Q. Okay. And so at the time in 1963 23 Q. "-- 11.2 feet along the south shore
24 when the planning was being done for the LPV, 24 of Lake Pontchartrain, 12.5 feet in
25 the spoil area along the banks of the MRGO was 25 Mandeville, 11.9 feet in the Chalmette area,
Page 178 Page 180
45 (Pages 177 to 180)

1 12.5 feet at the Citrus in New Orleans East 1 the design grade for the MRGO Reach 1 and
2 Back Levees, and 13 feet in the Rigolets and 2 Reach 2 levees, to your knowledge?
3 Chef Menteur Pass." 3 A. No.
4 A. Yes. 4 Q. And do you know why not?
5 Q. Do you see that? 5 A. The authorization was for a Standard
6 A. Yes, I see that. 6 Project Hurricane and that's what the project
7 Q. So somehow the Corps planners who 7 was constructed to.
8 did this study came up with the maximum surge 8 Q. While I am a lay person, I would
9 heights; correct? 9 infer that if you built to a Probable Maximum
10 A. I believe so, yes. 10 Hurricane, you would have to have a higher
11 Q. As we saw here. And that became a 11 levee, which would cost more money?
12 basic calculation that was part of the 12 A. Yes. And have to be authorized by
13 determination of what the design grade level 13 Congress.
14 would be for these levees; correct? 14 Q. Authorized by Congress. Now, the
15 A. Yes. 15 plan that Congress authorized in the 1965
16 Q. The study also, on page 47, 16 Flood Control Act that we discussed before
17 discusses some analysis that had been done by 17 lunch called for a Standard Project Hurricane
18 the planners for the Probable Maximum 18 hurricane protection system; correct?
19 Hurricane that we discussed very briefly a few 19 A. That's correct.
20 minutes ago. Do you see paragraph 10? 20 Q. And there was also a barrier plan
21 A. Yes. 21 part of that; correct?
22 Q. And the only difference between that 22 A. That was part of the plan.
23 and a Standard Project Hurricane was that it 23 Q. Eventually the barrier plan was not
24 might be reasonably possible for the region; 24 implemented by the Army Corps; correct?
25 correct? 25 A. That's correct.
Page 181 Page 183
1 A. I believe so. 1 Q. And they went to something that's

2 Q. And here they estimated maximum 2 generally described as the High Level Plan?
3 surge heights for the Probable Maximum 3 A. Correct.
4 Hurricane. Do you see that? 4 Q. Did they go back to Congress to get
5 A. Yes, I do. 5 -- Did the Army Corps go back to Congress to
6 Q. If we contrast the surge height 6 get new authorization to abandon the barrier
7 estimates between Standard Project Hurricane 7 plan and implement the High Barrier Plan?
8 and the Probable Maximum Hurricane for the 8 MR. BRUNO:
9 Chalmette area, under SPH it was 11.9 feet. 9 High Level.
10 And it's about nine-tenths of a foot higher -- 10 MR. O'DONNELL:
11 A. Yes. 11 Withdrawn.
12 Q. -- for the Probable Maximum 12 EXAMINATION BY MR. O'DONNELL:
13 Hurricane of about 13.8 feet. Do you see 13 Q. Did the Corps, to your knowledge, go
14 that? 14 back to Congress to get new authorization to
15 A. Yes, I do. 15 abandon the barrier plan and implement its new
16 Q. And the same for the Citrus Back -- 16 High Level Plan?
17 for the Citrus in New Orleans East Back -- 17 A. It was not authorized by Congress.
18 Back Levees; it was 12 and a half feet under 18 It was through the authorized discretionary
19 the SPH, and under the Probable Maximum 19 authority of the Chief of Engineers.
20 Hurricane it was slightly higher, at 14.6 20 Q. Okay. And what is the source of
21 feet; correct? 21 that -- You're not a lawyer, but are you
22 A. Yes. Yes, that's what I see. 22 generally familiar with what the source of
23 Q. Okay. Great. Now, did the Probable 23 that discretionary authority is?
24 Maximum Hurricane -- were those surge 24 A. I am not.
25 estimates factored into the determination of 25 Q. Okay. Would you kindly turn to page
Page 182 Page 184
46 (Pages 181 to 184)

1 55 of the report. 1 project which I am not familiar with.

2 A. Okay. 2 Q. We're going to be refamiliarize
3 Q. In terms of the initial survey, 3 ourselves with some of those documents today
4 there's a discussion under B which goes on to 4 and probably tomorrow morning. Let me ask you
5 page 57, skipping the photos, called "Related 5 this. Is it a fact that the Army Corps did
6 problem". Do you see that? 6 not go back to Congress to get authority to
7 A. Yes. 7 abandon the Seabrook lock?
8 Q. Go to page 57 if you would, please. 8 A. The way I read the authorization,
9 Could you just read the first full sentence 9 the Corps was authorized to look at the
10 for me beginning "Upon completion"? 10 Seabrook structure, but not necessarily
11 A. "Upon completion of the Gulf Outlet, 11 construct it.
12 tidal flows also enter Lake Pontchartrain 12 Q. So it wasn't mandated like the SPH
13 directly through the Inner Harbor Navigation 13 was?
14 Canal via the enlarged Gulf Outlet channel to 14 A. I don't think it was.
15 Breton Sound and to the Gulf of Mexico without 15 Q. Okay. Page 60. The first sentence
16 first passing through Lake Borgne. Thus, 16 supports your answer that the Seabrook lock
17 salinities in the lake will be increased 17 was thought to be a solution for both the
18 significantly." 18 higher velocities as well as the salinity
19 Q. Okay. And would you read the next 19 problem. The first sentence under "General",
20 sentence, please? 20 17-A?
21 A. "Current velocities in the Inner 21 A. Uh-huh (affirmatively).
22 Harbor Navigation Canal have increased notably 22 Q. That's what it says basically;
23 as construction of the Gulf Outlet progresses, 23 right?
24 with a corresponding increase in navigation 24 A. Yes, I think so.
25 difficulties and the creation of a major scour 25 Q. When the Corps did not decide --
Page 185 Page 187
1 problem along existing bridge and harbor 1 Withdrawn. When the Corps did not build the
2 developments." 2 Seabrook lock, did the Corps do anything to
3 Q. So even by early 1963 when the MRGO 3 deal with the problem of saltwater intrusion
4 was being used but not completed, the planners 4 and increased velocities that had been
5 at the Corps were noting increased -- 5 identified and was thought to be soluble by
6 Withdrawn -- that there was a velocity of 6 the Seabrook lock?
7 current in the IHNC that had increased because 7 A. I don't know.
8 of the MRGO? 8 Q. Are you aware of anything that was
9 A. Yes. 9 done?
10 Q. And the proposed solution at this 10 A. Not aware of anything.
11 time in 1963 for dealing with the salinity 11 Q. Page 61, in the middle of the page,
12 problem in part was the Seabrook lock; 12 number 2, "Hurricane protection plan". Do you
13 correct? 13 see that?
14 A. That was part of the solution I 14 A. Yes.
15 think, yes. 15 Q. Let's see. The middle of the page,
16 Q. And was the Seabrook lock also 16 after discussing some of the tide levels, et
17 proposed in order to deal with the increased 17 cetera, there's a sentence that says "Levee
18 current velocities in the IHNC because of the 18 grades were determined by adding an amount
19 MRGO? 19 equal to wave run-up for the significant wave
20 A. I believe that it was. 20 to these maximum wind-tide levels." Do you
21 Q. Okay. Do you know why, from looking 21 see that?
22 at the record, why the Seabrook lock was not 22 A. Yes.
23 constructed? 23 Q. That's what you said earlier, didn't
24 A. I don't have a good firm grasp of 24 you?
25 that. It's back in the gray history of the 25 A. I think so.
Page 186 Page 188
47 (Pages 185 to 188)

1 Q. You take the still water elevation 1 A. I think there was.

2 and add the estimated run-up, and you come up 2 MR. SMITH:
3 with your design grade? 3 I'm going to object to --
4 A. That's correct. 4 MR. O'DONNELL:
5 Q. Ah, here it is. Page 63. The 5 I'm sorry.
6 bottom of the page, there's a G, "New 6 MR. SMITH:
7 Orleans". Do you see that? 7 Just you have changed from
8 A. Yes. 8 armoring to rip-rap, and I am not sure
9 Q. And it says "The levee along 5.8 9 if the two are synonymous.
10 miles of the IHNC can be raised only by 10 MR. O'DONNELL:
11 construction of a sheet piling," et cetera. 11 I'll back up. I'll back up.
12 Do you see that? 12 EXAMINATION BY MR. O'DONNELL:
13 A. Yes. 13 Q. Rip-rap is a form of protecting a
14 Q. Does that suggest the IHNC might be 14 levee slope --
15 about 5.8 miles long for that -- 15 A. It's --
16 A. Yeah, that would suggest that, yeah. 16 Q. -- on the water side?
17 Q. Okay. Great. Under page 64, 17 A. It's not just for a levee. It can
18 there's a subsection "The Citrus levee". Do 18 be used to keep a channel from eroding and
19 you see that? 19 things like that. It's got many purposes.
20 A. Yes. 20 Q. Okay. Is rip-rap a form of
21 Q. The last sentence says "Rip-rap fore 21 armoring?
22 shore protection against erosion and by wave 22 A. I -- I don't know. I wouldn't
23 wash from shipping will be provided." Do you 23 necessarily say it's a form of armoring. I
24 see that? 24 think it's designed for purposes of erosion
25 A. Uh-huh (affirmatively). 25 and scour protection.
Page 189 Page 191
1 Q. What's rip-rap? 1 Q. Is there rip-rap along the entirety

2 A. Basically it's designed rock, rock 2 of Reach 2 that we're dealing with here, some
3 that has a certain size to withstand whatever 3 13 miles of Reach 2?
4 forces it has to withstand and it is placed 4 MR. SMITH:
5 along a shore line. 5 I'm going to object to asked and
6 Q. Is it in any netting or does it just 6 answered. But go ahead. You asked
7 lie? 7 him that before.
8 A. Generally just placed with cranes 8 THE WITNESS:
9 and mechanical devices to lay out a blanket 9 I think there was. And I don't
10 along the shore. 10 personally -- I hadn't personally gone
11 Q. And when waves come up against it, 11 out there and personally walked it,
12 it breaks the force of the wave? 12 but my understanding was there was
13 A. Right. 13 rock protection along that channel.
14 Q. And -- 14 EXAMINATION BY MR. O'DONNELL:
15 A. Helps prevent erosive action. 15 Q. The entirety of it?
16 Q. Right. Do you know whether rip-rap 16 A. I believe so. I have seen in those
17 fore shore protection was ever installed in 17 areas that I could see from the levee, I did
18 this area? 18 see rock out there.
19 A. I believe it was. 19 Q. Did you walk the entire 12 miles?
20 Q. Okay. Rip-rap was not installed 20 A. No.
21 along the entirety of Reach 2 of the MRGO 21 Q. What was, in the 1960s and '70s, a
22 levee; correct? 22 general design memorandum with respect to,
23 A. I don't know that. 23 say, levee construction along the MRGO?
24 Q. Do you know whether there was any 24 A. What was it?
25 armoring of the Reach 2 levee at all? 25 Q. What is it?
Page 190 Page 192
48 (Pages 189 to 192)

1 A. Well, a design memorandum in general 1 mean there was a number 1?

2 is a document that we put together describing 2 A. Yeah. There was a general design
3 more -- you know, general designs that we are 3 memorandum number 1 that described, I believe
4 going to use to implement a project and the 4 -- There was a general design memorandum
5 criteria that we're going to use and such. 5 number 1 and there were numerous design
6 Many different types of design memorandums 6 memorandums after this.
7 that we have prepared in the past. 7 Q. So is it fair to say from your
8 Q. Well, I have randomly just picked 8 experience that design memo number 2 is a new
9 this one, so we'll use this one. 9 iteration of number 1?
10 MR. O'DONNELL: 10 A. Not necessarily. Each one would
11 Let's mark this as the next in 11 probably cover different aspects of the
12 order. What have we got, Robin? 12 project.
13 MR. SMITH: 13 Q. Advancing the planning process?
14 13. 14 A. Well, either that or, say, 2 would
15 MR. O'DONNELL: 15 cover this area, 3 would cover another area
16 What? 16 for -- you know, it's such a large area that
17 MR. SMITH: 17 you wouldn't necessarily be able to cover each
18 13. 18 geographic location of the project with one
19 EXAMINATION BY MR. O'DONNELL: 19 document.
20 Q. Sir, I put before you what's been 20 Q. Okay. We'll look at the Chalmette
21 marked as Exhibit 13. It's described as an 21 area plan. I am going to mark something
22 Army Corps of Engineers document for the Lake 22 called "Design memo number 3," --
23 Pontchartrain Louisiana and Vicinity, Lake 23 A. Uh-huh (affirmatively).
24 Pontchartrain barrier plan, design memorandum 24 Q. -- "General design". That
25 number 2 - General design for the Citrus Back 25 similarly would --
Page 193 Page 195
1 Levee, dated August, 1967. Do you see that? 1 A. Right.

2 A. Yes. 2 Q. -- deal with a different phase of
3 Q. Have you seen this document or a 3 that Chalmette area plan?
4 copy of it before? 4 A. That's correct.
5 A. Actually, no. 5 Q. Okay. Let's just kind of
6 Q. Oh. 6 generically see what we got here in design
7 A. It's the first I have seen it. A 7 memo number 2 for the Citrus Back Levee.
8 very rare document. 8 There's a series of transmittals, right,
9 Q. It is? 9 approvals?
10 A. As far as I know. I have never been 10 A. Right.
11 able to find it. 11 Q. And then we got the Lower
12 Q. Well, we found it. 12 Mississippi guys.
13 A. Well, good. Because I have tried to 13 A. Uh-huh (affirmatively).
14 get all of them, but I -- you know, I have 14 Q. And they comment on the basic
15 never seen it. As far as I know, I don't 15 document, do they not? Isn't that the Corps?
16 recall it. 16 A. That's correct.
17 Q. Okay. When the case is over, I'll 17 Q. And that's expressing their views
18 present you through Robin with a leather 18 which are passed along; right?
19 bounded set of all of these, which I have had 19 A. That's correct.
20 to read. 20 Q. Would this general design memo
21 Tell us, was this one of the 21 number 2 for the Citrus Back Levee, Exhibit 13
22 design memos used for the Citrus Back Levee 22 -- how high in the chain of command we
23 general design? 23 discussed earlier today in the Army Corps
24 A. Seems to be. 24 would this document go for approval?
25 Q. Okay. It's number 2. Does that 25 A. I don't know. I mean, it's changed
Page 194 Page 196
49 (Pages 193 to 196)

1 over time. I don't know where this document 1 after the numbers. One more maybe.
2 wound up. It could have gone all the way to 2 A. This (indicating)?
3 the Chief Engineer as far as I know. I don't 3 Q. You see that?
4 know. 4 A. Uh-huh (affirmatively).
5 Q. Okay. If you'll look at page 2 of 5 Q. This is a 21 August 1967 memo from
6 the document, -- 6 the Division Engineer of the Lower Mississippi
7 A. Uh-huh (affirmatively). 7 Valley District -- I'm sorry, the New Orleans
8 Q. -- it seems that it's being a 8 District Engineer is writing to his superior;
9 transmittal from the Lower Mississippi Valley 9 correct?
10 Division of the Engineering Division to New 10 A. That's correct. That's correct.
11 Orleans; correct? 11 Q. And this is the -- this attached
12 A. Where is that? 12 memo is actually itself the general design
13 Q. I'm sorry, page 2 of the -- No, I'm 13 memo number 2; correct?
14 sorry. The second page or number of the 14 A. That's correct.
15 document. 15 Q. All right. So go to the next page.
16 A. Okay. 16 I'm curious about a couple of things. There
17 Q. It looks like the Lower Mississippi 17 is a -- looks like a timetable estimate here.
18 Valley Division is sending its comments and 18 Do you see that?
19 approval along? 19 A. Uh-huh (affirmatively).
20 A. Yes. 20 Q. And it tells us in fact what each
21 Q. Correct? 21 design memo is going to discuss.
22 A. Uh-huh (affirmatively). 22 A. That's correct.
23 Q. If you look at the next page -- 23 Q. Like number 1 deals with hydrology
24 A. This is from Washington. 24 and hydrology analysis. Right?
25 Q. Washington is transmitting -- 25 A. Yes.
Page 197 Page 199
1 A. To the Division. 1 Q. 2 is the -- this document; right?

2 Q. Transmitting its views or whatever 2 It's the general design memo?
3 -- or approval. Correct? 3 A. There's several number 2s if you
4 A. That's correct. 4 look at the numbering.
5 Q. So we go to the next page. 5 Q. Okay.
6 A. Okay. 6 A. There's supplements related to it.
7 Q. This is A. J. Davis. Not to be 7 Q. But one of them -- The second number
8 confused with George V. Davis, I guess. Now, 8 2 is the Citrus Back Levee; correct?
9 who is approving here? 9 A. Yes.
10 A. This looks like -- This is going 10 Q. All right. And then each of the
11 from the Division office back to Headquarters 11 other components of the overall hurricane
12 recommending approval. 12 protection system that's being planned have
13 Q. Okay. And it was approved 13 their own general design memo. Right?
14 apparently. So this document, the general 14 A. Yes.
15 design memo, works its way for approval all 15 Q. For example, let's find Chalmette.
16 the way up to the Headquarters in Washington; 16 Ah, number 3.
17 correct? 17 A. Yes.
18 A. That's the way it was working at 18 Q. Chalmette area plan. Right?
19 that time. 19 A. Yes.
20 Q. And would that be typical for the 20 Q. Which I am going to talk about
21 other design memos in this period of time? 21 later.
22 A. At that period, yes. 22 A. Uh-huh (affirmatively).
23 Q. Okay. Great. Okay. If you go 23 Q. Then there's another supplement to
24 about ten pages into the memo, there is a New 24 that; correct?
25 Orleans District letterhead. It's a few pages 25 A. Yes. That's correct.
Page 198 Page 200
50 (Pages 197 to 200)

1 Q. And these are all dates forward of 1 A. Yes.

2 August, '67 they're projecting when these 2 Q. Okay. And the asterisk tells us the
3 plans are going to be finished; right? 3 feet elevation is -- refers to mean sea level
4 A. Correct. 4 datum?
5 Q. For these various things? You go to 5 A. That's correct.
6 the last page of this schedule, they were 6 Q. What is NVGD or NGVD?
7 hoping the last one would be done October, 7 A. National Vertical Geo- --
8 1968; correct? 8 Q. Easy for me to say, huh?
9 A. Right. 9 A. National Geodetic Vertical Datum.
10 Q. Do you know if they met this 10 Q. Okay. Is that something different
11 schedule or not? 11 than mean sea level datum?
12 A. I don't know. Not all of these were 12 A. Don't get me started on that,
13 necessarily provided. Some additions were 13 because I really -- I'd really rather defer to
14 added. It changed over time as the project 14 a surveying expert.
15 changed. 15 Q. Okay.
16 Q. Right. The next page of the 16 A. There's differences that are
17 document, again it's unnumbered so far, it 17 explainable, but I don't think I'm the person
18 will be shortly, is actually what's called a 18 to explain it.
19 plate, right? It's a map? 19 Q. Okay. And then there's the
20 A. Uh-huh (affirmatively). 20 estimated first cost. Do you see that?
21 Q. And this was the authorized 21 A. Yes.
22 improvements under the Flood Control Act of 22 Q. And this is the Federal, non-Federal
23 1965. 23 sharing arrangement, which I think was 70
24 A. Yes. 24 percent, 30 percent?
25 Q. And the boundaries are set out here; 25 A. Correct.
Page 201 Page 203
1 right? 1 Q. Okay. The next page tells us that

2 A. Yes. 2 the SPH frequency was one in every 200 years?
3 Q. Okay. And then we have a table of 3 A. Okay.
4 contents. Right? That's typical of these 4 Q. And they planned for a maximum wind
5 documents? 5 speed of 100 miles per hour?
6 A. Right. 6 A. Uh-huh (affirmatively).
7 Q. Right? 7 Q. And then they have these station
8 A. Right. 8 notations. Do you see that?
9 Q. Then the schedule of the plates. Go 9 A. Yes.
10 to the "Pertinent data" section. Do you see 10 Q. Do you know what the distance
11 that? 11 between station to station was for the Citrus
12 A. Yes. 12 Back Levee?
13 Q. The first page indicates "Net grade 13 A. No.
14 of protection works". Do you see that? 14 Q. Okay. Now, the Citrus Back Levee
15 A. Where is it? 15 initially was planned, we saw two pages
16 Q. The third entry, "Net grade". 16 earlier, the IHNC to Paris Road was 14 feet.
17 A. Yes, I see that. 17 Right? Design grade level?
18 Q. It says the IHNC to Paris Road will 18 A. Okay.
19 be elevated at 14 feet? 19 Q. What was it actually ultimately
20 A. Uh-huh (affirmatively). 20 designed for? Do you know? Was it higher
21 Q. And Paris Road through NASA, that's 21 than 14 feet?
22 Mich- -- 22 A. As far as I know, it was 14.
23 A. Michoud. 23 Q. Okay. Is that what it was at the
24 Q. -- Michoud will be higher, at 18 24 time of Katrina?
25 feet? 25 A. I don't know.
Page 202 Page 204
51 (Pages 201 to 204)

1 Q. Okay. And again, there may be a 1 for that?

2 variation along the 5.8 miles? 2 A. Yes, they did.
3 A. Yeah. Might be. 3 Q. Okay. Now let's go to Reach number
4 Q. Page 5, numbered 5 of the report, -- 4 2 of the MRGO. Who was the local sponsor for
5 A. Okay. 5 that?
6 Q. -- has local cooperation 6 A. It was Lake Borgne Levee District
7 requirements. 7 and St. Bernard Parish.
8 A. Yes. 8 Q. Lake Borgne Levee District on the
9 Q. Do you see that? 9 Lake Borgne side?
10 A. Uh-huh (affirmatively). 10 A. No. It was a joint sponsorship.
11 Q. And one of the document -- and every 11 Q. Joint. Okay.
12 project like these levees needs a local 12 A. Okay.
13 sponsor or local interest? 13 Q. Sorry. And they both signed acts of
14 A. Correct. 14 assurance?
15 Q. Is that the entity first of all 15 A. That's correct.
16 responsible for putting up the 30 percent? 16 Q. Now, is there a separate document
17 A. Yes. 17 known as a cooperation agreement?
18 Q. Secondly, upon completion and 18 A. No.
19 turnover, they're the ones obligated by law 19 Q. You never saw such a written
20 and agreement to maintain and operate the 20 agreement?
21 facility? 21 A. No.
22 A. Correct. 22 Q. By the time of Katrina, Hurricane --
23 Q. And they sign things called acts of 23 Withdrawn. By the time of Hurricane Katrina,
24 assurance? 24 had the Army Corps of Engineers turned over to
25 A. Yes, they did at that time. Yes. 25 the St. Bernard Parish and the Lake Borgne
Page 205 Page 207
1 Q. Who was the local sponsor for the 1 Levee District the operation and maintenance
2 Citrus Back Levee? 2 of Reach 2 of the MRGO levees?
3 A. That would be Orleans Levee 3 A. No.
4 District. 4 Q. The same question for the Citrus
5 Q. OLD. Okay. And for the New Orleans 5 Back Levee. By the time of Katrina, had the
6 East Back Levee? 6 Army Corps of Engineers turned over to the
7 A. Orleans Levee District. 7 Orleans Levee District the Citrus Back Levee
8 Q. Okay. And the New Orleans East 8 operation and maintenance?
9 Levee? 9 A. Not as a final product, although
10 A. Orleans Levee District. 10 they were doing interim maintenance between
11 Q. Using Exhibit 7, there is a south 11 few lifts.
12 side of the MRGO, GIWW Reach 1? 12 Q. But a turnover had not occurred?
13 A. Yes. 13 A. Not a formal 100 percent turnover,
14 Q. Do you see that? 14 with two exceptions: The Bayou Bienvenu and
15 A. Yes. 15 Bayou Dupre structures were formally turned
16 Q. Who was the local sponsor for that 16 over.
17 stretch? 17 Q. To --
18 A. The Orleans Levee District was the 18 A. The Levee Districts. Bayou Bienvenu
19 sponsor all the way up to Bayou Bienvenu and a 19 what turned over to Orleans Levee District,
20 little bit beyond that. That would be the 20 and Bayou Dupre structure was turned over to
21 Orleans Levee District. 21 St. Bernard and Lake Borgne.
22 Q. And the IHNC, both sides? 22 Q. In terms of the New Orleans East
23 A. New Orleans Levee District, both 23 Back Levee, by the time of the Hurricane
24 sides. 24 Katrina, did the Army Corps of Engineers turn
25 Q. And they signed acts of assurance 25 over to the Orleans Levee District the
Page 206 Page 208
52 (Pages 205 to 208)

1 operation and maintenance of the New Orleans 1 knowledge that the Army Corps gained as a
2 East Back Levee? 2 result of Hurricane Betsy and the flooding of
3 A. Not formally. Not for complete -- 3 substantial portions of greater New Orleans
4 It was not completed at that time. 4 was -- is reflected in this design memo?
5 Q. Okay. Great. And finally, the same 5 A. I don't know.
6 question, New Orleans East Levee, by the time 6 Q. Do you know whether the design grade
7 of Hurricane Katrina, had the Army Corps of 7 for the Citrus Back Levee that we just
8 Engineers turned over the operation and 8 discussed is the same as it was before
9 maintenance of the New Orleans East Levee to 9 Hurricane Betsy?
10 the Orleans Levee District? 10 A. I don't know. I would have to look
11 A. Not -- Not -- Not for final 11 at the documents.
12 completion, no. There was always interim 12 Q. Okay.
13 work. Let me just say this. We -- I want to 13 MR. O'DONNELL:
14 be very careful when we say "turn over". 14 I am going to mark these
15 Because in reality, that isn't a Corps levee. 15 documents --
16 We don't own the property. The Levee District 16 MR. ANDRY:
17 owns it. We only go in there to construct. 17 14.
18 They give us permission to go in there and 18 MR. O'DONNELL:
19 build contracts. It is not our levee. It's 19 -- as 14.
20 their levee. 20 THE WITNESS:
21 Q. I understand that. But the 21 Are we finished with this?
22 construction on the three levees, Citrus Back, 22 EXAMINATION BY MR. O'DONNELL:
23 New Orleans East and Back, and New Orleans 23 Q. No, I'm sorry. I am trying to be
24 East Levee had not been completed by the Army 24 thematic. Not necessarily chronological.
25 Corps of Engineers by Hurricane Katrina; 25 MR. ANDRY:
Page 209 Page 211
1 correct? 1 In an effort, so you don't get

2 A. That's correct. 2 off of that page, clip that together.
3 Q. And the same is true of all of Reach 3 MR. O'DONNELL:
4 2 of the MRGO? 4 We're going to mark this what,
5 A. That's correct. 5 Counsel?
6 Q. Okay. 6 MR. ANDRY:
7 VIDEO OPERATOR: 7 14.
8 Go off the record to change tape, 8 MR. O'DONNELL:
9 please? 9 14.
10 MR. O'DONNELL: 10 EXAMINATION BY MR. O'DONNELL:
11 Perfect. Yes. Yes, we'll take a 11 Q. Sir, I have put before you what's
12 little five minute here. Good. 12 been marked as Exhibit 14.
13 VIDEO OPERATOR: 13 A. Uh-huh (affirmatively).
14 Off record. 14 Q. And this is a collection I believe
15 (Recess.) 15 of three acts of assurance dealing with the
16 VIDEO OPERATOR: 16 various segments of the LPV?
17 We're on the record. 17 A. Okay.
18 EXAMINATION BY MR. O'DONNELL: 18 Q. The first one, on the first page is
19 Q. Mr. Naomi, this survey by the 19 the Board of Commissioners of the Orleans
20 District Engineer for the Citrus Back Levee 20 Levee District --
21 was done in -- Withdrawn. The general design 21 A. Okay.
22 memo number 2 for the Citrus Back Levee is 22 Q. -- for the barrier plan. You see
23 dated August, 1967. Do you see that? 23 how I have circled it there?
24 A. Yes. 24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Do you know whether to any extent 25 Q. Is this a typical act of assurance?
Page 210 Page 212
53 (Pages 209 to 212)

1 A. At that time, yes, it is. 1 A. The other side.

2 Q. And have they changed somewhat more 2 Q. Part of that area is sometimes known
3 recently? 3 as the Lower Ninth Ward?
4 A. I don't think we really -- Well, I 4 A. Yes, part of it is.
5 don't say we do these. We do project 5 Q. Page 2 of the second act of
6 cooperation agreements with the local sponsors 6 assurance has an estimated total contribution
7 now. This was the form at the time. 7 for construction and a lands and relocations
8 Q. Got it. So cooperation agreements 8 donation?
9 have supplanted in fact acts of assurances? 9 A. Yes.
10 A. For these types of projects, yes. 10 Q. By the local interest; right?
11 Q. And on the page 2 there's an 11 A. Yes.
12 estimated cost. Do you see that? 12 Q. And finally, the third act of
13 A. Yes. 13 assurance, this is by the Orleans Levee
14 Q. And the land right-of-way was 14 District; right?
15 supposed to be provided to the Corps by the 15 A. Okay.
16 local interest; correct? 16 Q. And it mentions the barrier unit.
17 A. Correct. 17 Do you see that?
18 Q. Item G, in terms of responsibilities 18 A. Yes.
19 being undertaken by the Orleans Levee 19 Q. Is that what was supposed to be out
20 District, is to maintain and operate all 20 at the Rigolets and Chef Menteur?
21 features of the project in accordance with 21 A. I believe so.
22 regulations, et cetera. Do you see that? 22 Q. Okay. Rigolets. Okay.
24 Q. And that's after the turnover? 24 Iceberg, Goldberg, whatever.
25 A. Yes. 25 Okay. I'll get it. I'll get it.
Page 213 Page 215
1 Q. Okay. Let's go to the next page, 1 EXAMINATION BY MR. O'DONNELL:

2 which is another -- I'm sorry, after the 2 Q. Page 2 has a bunch of numbers. Do
3 jurat. The second act of assurance dated July 3 you see that?
4 28, 1966, and the first one had the same date, 4 A. Yes.
5 is again the Orleans Levee District for the 5 Q. The total barrier plan first cost in
6 Chalmette area plan. Do you see that? 6 the bottom was over 192 million; right?
7 A. Correct. 7 A. That's correct.
8 Q. Why is the Orleans Levee District 8 Q. For the Federal-state sharing
9 being a local sponsor for a portion of the 9 formula there?
10 Chalmette area plan? 10 A. Yes.
11 A. Because that portion is Orleans 11 Q. And the local interest got credit
12 Parish and the Orleans Levee District 12 for the value of the land and relocations;
13 jurisdiction is for all of Orleans Parish. 13 right?
14 Q. Which portion of the Chalmette area 14 A. That's correct.
15 plan on Exhibit 5 is this act of assurance 15 Q. Plus they had to make a cash
16 relating to? Do you know? 16 contribution?
17 A. Well, I can -- It's kind of hard to 17 A. Yes.
18 see, but there's a boundary line here 18 Q. What does "first costs" mean?
19 (indicating). 19 A. That's the capital cost of the
20 Q. Yes. 20 construction. So as you're building a
21 A. And then it goes all along -- along 21 structure, what does it cost to build the
22 Bienvenu, to the Bayou Bienvenu structure. 22 structure. It doesn't include operation and
23 That structure to the west of that boundary is 23 maintenance costs.
24 all Orleans Parish. 24 Q. Okay. The first component in the
25 Q. And then St. Bernard picks up -- 25 upper left corner of this table is barrier
Page 214 Page 216
54 (Pages 213 to 216)

1 unit with Seabrook complex, Chef Menteur 1 Q. Does that Levee District still
2 complex, Rigolets complex. 2 exist?
3 A. Yes, sir. 3 A. Yes, it does.
4 Q. Okay. None of those were built; 4 Q. Okay. And what are they assuring
5 right? 5 here? The construction of what? Can you
6 A. That's correct. 6 tell?
7 Q. Okay. And down below we have the 7 A. Well, they're assuring their portion
8 various improvements. One in Orleans Levee 8 of the project.
9 District and the other in St. Charles, 9 Q. Okay. The portion that was supposed
10 Jefferson, Tammany Parishes. Were they built? 10 to be built in Orleans and St. Tammany?
11 A. Let me make sure. They were built 11 A. There was a portion of the project
12 in some form. 12 that was supposed to be built in St. Charles
13 Q. Okay. 13 and Jefferson Parish, in which they were the
14 A. Okay. 14 local sponsors for, as well as their share of
15 Q. Maybe not as originally 15 the barrier complex.
16 contemplated? 16 Q. A formula was arrived at for the
17 A. Well, St. Tammany never had anything 17 various Levee Districts?
18 constructed. Orleans, Jefferson, and St. 18 A. I believe that's correct.
19 Charles do, do have constructed features, but 19 Q. To comprise the total of 30 percent?
20 not necessarily as originally envisioned. 20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Right. We have not seen in these 21 Q. Got it. Okay. While I don't have
22 three act of assurances the act of assurance 22 it, it's your understanding that a similar act
23 jointly sponsored by the Lake Borgne Levee 23 of assurance would have been executed by the
24 District and St. Bernard Parish. 24 Orleans -- excuse me, the Lake Borgne Levee
25 A. Not yet. 25 District and St. Bernard Parish for the Reach
Page 217 Page 219
1 Q. Not yet. Okay. Well, I'm not sure 1 2 improvements?

2 we will. 2 A. Yes, sir.
3 When the barrier unit was 3 Q. Okay. Let's go back to the general
4 abandoned by the Corps, the Seabrook complex, 4 design memo that we were looking at for the
5 Chef Menteur complex, and Rigolets complex, 5 Citrus Back Levee, Number 13. We were on page
6 was that a significant or material change in 6 5 discussing local cooperation.
7 the plan authorized by Congress? 7 A. All right.
8 A. It was a change. Yes. 8 Q. In the design process for the Citrus
9 Q. Was it significant? 9 Back Levee and the other levees that were
10 A. Oh, I would think it was pretty 10 built pursuant to the LPV, do the local
11 significant. 11 interests get to comment on the plans?
12 Q. Okay. Let's look at the next one, 12 A. Yes, they do.
13 which we'll mark as Number 15. 13 Q. Oh, yes, look at page 9, if you
14 MR. O'DONNELL: 14 would, please. There's a heading "Departures
15 Here you go, Robin. Here's two 15 from project document plan". Do you see that?
16 for you. And one for you, Johnny. 16 A. Uh-huh (affirmatively).
17 EXAMINATION BY MR. O'DONNELL: 17 Q. What's the project document plan?
18 Q. I have marked as Exhibit 15 another 18 Was that a predecessor to this?
19 act of assurance. This one is dated October 19 A. I assume that probably the
20 7th, 1971. 20 authorization document. I am assuming that
21 A. Okay. 21 that's what that means.
22 Q. Okay? And let's see. It is the 22 Q. House Report 231?
23 Board of Commissioners of the Pontchartrain 23 A. I believe so.
24 Levee District. Okay? 24 Q. Okay. So they tell us, A,
25 A. Okay. 25 "General", the plan presented here
Page 218 Page 220
55 (Pages 217 to 220)

1 (indicating) in this design memo for Citrus 1 indication that there will be an I-wall?
2 Back Levee, is generally the same as that 2 A. Yes.
3 presented in the authorizing document. Then 3 Q. And like the second entry under
4 they mention some changes. Right? 4 "I-wall" is "minus 9.5"? Did I read that
5 A. Yes. 5 right?
6 Q. Which is stated to be within the 6 A. That's what it looks like. I don't
7 discretionary authority of the Chief of 7 know.
8 Engineers. These changes have been 8 Q. Do you know what that means?
9 incorporated into the plan; right? 9 A. I have no idea.
10 A. Uh-huh (affirmatively). Yes. 10 Q. Okay.
11 Q. In 1, they say there have been some 11 MR. SMITH:
12 upward grade revisions? 12 I think he can explain it if you
13 A. Yes. 13 look at the columns -- headings and
14 Q. Okay. Oh, good. Page 10 tells us 14 columns.
15 the grade leveling revision. Do you see that? 15 THE WITNESS:
16 A. Yes. 16 Sheet pile tip. Okay. That must
17 Q. For the Citrus Back Levee, the area 17 be the sheet pile.
18 west of Paris Road was increased one foot, 18 EXAMINATION BY MR. O'DONNELL:
19 from 13 to 14 feet? 19 Q. Buried into the embankment?
20 A. Okay. 20 A. Buried into the embankment and
21 Q. Is that what it says? 21 elevation. At least for this particular
22 A. I believe so, yes. 22 design.
23 Q. And the area east of Paris Road was 23 Q. Do you have an engineering degree,
24 increased from 16 to 18 feet. 24 or you can just read; right?
25 A. Yes, sir. 25 MR. SMITH:
Page 221 Page 223
1 Q. The New Orleans East Back Levee was 1 The column next to it, on the
2 increased a foot and a half, from 16 to 17 and 2 left of it is the top of the sheet
3 a half feet? 3 pile wall.
5 Q. And that remained a design grade 5 Right.
6 level thereafter, did it not? 6 THE WITNESS:
7 A. I believe that's correct. 7 I got you.
8 Q. The Inner Harbor Navigation Canal 8 EXAMINATION BY MR. O'DONNELL:
9 was increased -- I'll skip that. 9 Q. And so for some stretches, was it
10 Do you know whether this document 10 contemplated there would be some kind of wall
11 or a document like this contains a timetable 11 for all of -- for much of this area? The
12 for planning and construction? 12 second entry wall?
13 A. I don't know, since I have not seen 13 A. You're getting into areas I am not
14 it before. 14 aware of.
15 Q. Okay. Turn to page 20, if you 15 Q. Okay. Let's look at the second
16 would, please. 16 entry. Okay? The 253 plus 35 to 255.10
17 A. Okay. 17 station location --
18 Q. This is table 2 and it's entitled 18 A. Uh-huh (affirmatively).
19 "Location and type of protective works". Do 19 Q. -- tells us the levee itself, that's
20 you see that? 20 the earthen portion, is going to be 9 feet;
21 A. Yes. 21 right?
22 Q. And these are various station 22 A. That's what it says.
23 numbers for the Citrus Back Levee? 23 Q. And the wall will take it to 15
24 A. Uh-huh (affirmatively). 24 feet?
25 Q. For some of them, there's an 25 A. Okay.
Page 222 Page 224
56 (Pages 221 to 224)

1 Q. And the wall will be buried, the 1 considered to be clayey soils?

2 sheet, whatever they're going to put in, will 2 A. I don't know.
3 be buried 9.5 feet? 3 Q. You don't know. Okay. After a
4 A. That's what it says. 4 design memorandum such as the one we're
5 Q. Okay. 9.5 feet. Right. Well, am I 5 looking at for the Citrus Back Levee is
6 to infer that the portion of the sheet that's 6 promulgated and approved, what use is made of
7 going to be exposed above ground is 6 feet? 7 it in the process of ultimately getting to an
8 If you're going from 9 to 15? To the top 8 authorized grade level for a levee?
9 elevation? 6 feet above the embankment and 9 9 A. Well, I think it's used as a guide
10 -- 10 for contracting -- for putting contracts out
11 A. Not necessarily. Sheet pile is not 11 for construction. And, of course, that guide
12 necessarily left exposed. Usually it's capped 12 can be modified if we encounter any different
13 with concrete. So that's a variation that -- 13 kind of field conditions, but it's generally
14 Q. Okay. 14 used as a general plan of attack for building
15 A. I am not familiar with this design. 15 whatever that feature is.
16 I am not a design engineer to really tell you 16 Q. After the general design memo, does
17 what really was envisioned for this location. 17 the Corps or some contractor of the Corps'
18 Q. Was any of this sheet pile ever 18 build more specific construction plans?
19 installed along the Citrus Back Levee? 19 A. Yes.
20 A. I have no idea. 20 Q. Is that done by the Corps?
21 Q. In any event, it was planned for; 21 A. It could be. It could be done by a
22 correct? 22 local sponsor. It could be done by architect
23 A. In this document. 23 engineers.
24 Q. Right. Do you know whether it was 24 Q. And this general design memo would
25 ever revised, taken out? 25 be an important document in getting to
Page 225 Page 227
1 A. I don't know. 1 construction plans; right?

2 Q. Page 23, please. This is a table 2 A. It would be the basis of starting to
3 charting the settlement expected during 3 prepare the construction.
4 construction for the Citrus Back Levee; right? 4 Q. And by the time the you have got a
5 A. Okay. 5 general design memo, you have done
6 Q. And you told me earlier that's one 6 geotechnical investigations?
7 factor, settlement, you take into account in 7 A. Generally, I would say yes.
8 designing and constructing a levee so you get 8 Q. Okay.
9 to your design grade eventually; correct? 9 A. It's not to say you wouldn't do more
10 A. Yes. 10 at some point, but you should have some
11 Q. Page 5- -- 24, paragraph 57. 11 geotechnical investigation for the design
12 A. Okay. 12 memorandum.
13 Q. "Erosion protection". Do you see 13 Q. Right. I am looking for a timetable
14 that? 14 here. We've seen and we're going to talk
15 A. Yes. 15 today or tomorrow about as-built documents.
16 Q. It says "Due to the short duration 16 What are as-built?
17 of hurricane flood stages and the resistant 17 A. Those are documents that you take
18 nature of the clayey soils, no erosion 18 plans and specs for a contract, let's say, to
19 protection is considered necessary in the 19 build something and when you finish it, you
20 levee slopes along most of the alignment" and 20 show the -- how those plans are actually
21 then they mention an exception. Do you see 21 installed in the ground. In other words, did
22 that? 22 -- if there were some slight modifications
23 A. Yes. 23 during construction, that would have changed
24 Q. Were the soils that were supposed to 24 the original plans, and those as-builts are
25 be used in this area, the Citrus Back Levee, 25 the document that reflects what was actually
Page 226 Page 228
57 (Pages 225 to 228)

1 put in the field. 1 sections will be constructed and completed

2 Q. So it's the engineering and 2 either by December, '68, June, '68, June '70,
3 construction document of record of what was 3 or December, '68?
4 built? 4 A. Uh-huh (affirmatively).
5 A. Yes. 5 Q. Okay. This is the first lift plus
6 Q. And what's the purpose of it? 6 floodwall; right?
7 A. For that record. 7 A. Yes. For that particular contract.
8 Q. Okay. 8 Q. This is for the Citrus Back Levee;
9 A. And it's -- And it's a document in 9 right?
10 itself. 10 A. Right.
11 Q. And so if enlargements are 11 Q. And does this first lift get us to
12 contemplated for that section, the as-builts 12 design grade or does it contemplate there will
13 would be an important planning tool for the 13 be more work?
14 enlargement? 14 A. I don't know. I assume there would
15 A. Not necessarily. Because you are 15 be more work after that. We rarely build
16 going to have subsidence and issues that 16 anything with just one lift.
17 you'll have to go back out and resurvey and 17 Q. We go to the next page, we get the
18 everything so you can make your new and 18 answer. You look at the bottom, the levee has
19 modified construction plans. 19 a fourth lift and seeding contemplated; that's
20 Q. I am looking in this document, sir, 20 March, 1975 --
21 for something that might tell me the general 21 A. Okay.
22 time, estimated timetable for the basic 22 Q. -- completion date. Correct?
23 construction and the lifts and enlargements 23 A. Okay.
24 that would get to the design grade. Do you 24 Q. So from start of design, if you go
25 know where that -- 25 to page 1 for the first lift, September, 1967,
Page 229 Page 231
1 A. Without having seen the document 1 to the estimated or projected completion of

2 before, I don't know if I could help you. 2 the fourth lift and seeding, that's March,
3 Q. Would the general design memo 3 1975; right?
4 contain that? 4 A. That's what this says.
5 A. Sometimes they do. And -- But 5 Q. Well, seven and a half years; right?
6 that's always a guide. It's never something 6 A. Okay.
7 put -- 7 Q. And I take it you get to seeding
8 Q. Right. I understand that. 8 when you have reached design grade?
9 A. You know, I see some areas in here 9 A. Well, you seed and fertilize -- you
10 in the schedule. I don't know if you -- 10 get grass growing between lifts always. I
11 they're not numbered. Oh, 99. Page 99. 11 mean, you just put seeding, you never really
12 Q. 99? 12 -- you have grass growing every time you
13 A. 66. I'm sorry. I am reading it 13 finish a lift.
14 upside down. 14 Q. Okay. Let's go to the next page,
15 Q. 66. Thank you. 15 which would be 68 on the left side numbering.
16 A. 65. There's all kind of -- Let's 16 This is a continuation of the same chart.
17 see. 17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Oh, those are the -- Okay. Fiscal 18 Q. This has is also doing fore shore
19 year. Let's look at that. That's good. 19 protection for certain segment; correct?
20 Thank you. 20 A. Yes.
21 A. 66. The schedule for design of 21 Q. And that's contemplated for the two
22 construction. 22 segments to be completed by June, '72?
23 Q. Okay. The numbers are there. Page 23 A. I see that. Yes.
24 66, which is on the left side, "Schedule for 24 Q. Okay. Do you know whether or not
25 design and construction". Says various 25 the Citrus Back Levee fourth lift and seeding
Page 230 Page 232
58 (Pages 229 to 232)

1 was completed by March, 1975? 1 achieving the original planning goal of

2 A. I don't. 2 sometime in 1975 for the completion of the
3 Q. It was not; correct? 3 Citrus Back Levee were for a variety of
4 A. I don't know that. Generally these 4 factors not related to the Corps itself. Is
5 are -- these are optimum schedules based on 5 that correct? I am going to go through some.
6 unlimited funding. 6 Would that be correct to say?
7 Q. On unlimited funding? 7 A. There were some delays not relating
8 A. Yeah, funding coming in when you 8 to the Corps side.
9 need it; local sponsor providing the 9 Q. Well, for example, Congress didn't
10 assurances when he needs it; everything 10 provide all the funding you needed.
11 working, no lawsuits, no obstructions, no 11 A. I -- Not being involved with the
12 complications. This is just a schedule, an 12 project then, I don't know that. But it's
13 optimum schedule that's developed for this 13 likely that is possible, yes.
14 document. 14 Q. Well, there's quite a bit of record
15 Q. By 2005 Citrus Back Levee had not 15 evidence that you had, in the years you were
16 been completed to its design grade. You told 16 the project manager -- I want to say this as
17 me that earlier; correct? 17 neutrally as I can -- pleaded with the
18 A. I didn't say that. I said it had 18 Congress on behalf of the Corps, you and other
19 not been turned over to the sponsor. 19 Corps people, to make funding available for
20 Q. Was it consistently, along the 20 completion of this hurricane protection
21 Citrus Back Levee, at design grade level by 21 system. Is that fair to say?
22 the time of Katrina? 22 A. I want to be very careful here
23 A. I don't know. I think there might 23 because I --
24 have been some areas that might have needed 24 Q. Put it in your own words. I don't
25 some adjustments, but for the most part, as 25 mean to put words in your mouth.
Page 233 Page 235
1 far as I understood, it was close, if not at, 1 A. As a -- As an employee of the

2 design grade. 2 Executive branch of government, I cannot lobby
3 Q. Okay. But it had not been turned 3 Congress for funding. All right? I work for
4 over to the local sponsor? 4 the administration. Local sponsors can lobby
5 A. We weren't going to turn over a 5 Congress for funding. I describe the funding
6 piece of the system until the entire loop was 6 shortfalls to local sponsors and they can
7 completed. 7 discuss these shortfalls with Congress.
8 Q. Right. And to get the protection 8 Q. You, on behalf of the Corps, did
9 that Congress asked for, the entire loop has 9 acknowledge to local sponsors that there were
10 to be completed to get the maximum -- 10 funding shortfalls preventing the Corps from
11 A. We wanted to give them the completed 11 completing the Lake Pontchartrain and Vicinity
12 segment. 12 Hurricane Protection Project as authorized by
13 Q. All right. To get the protection 13 Congress?
14 that Congress wanted -- 14 A. Yes.
15 A. Yes. 15 Q. Okay. And at the time of Katrina,
16 Q. -- you have to complete the loop; 16 Congress had still not provided all of the
17 right? 17 funding that the Corps believed was needed to
18 A. That's correct. 18 complete the system?
19 Q. The system has to integral -- 19 A. And the funding was -- that we were
20 A. That's right. 20 looking for was based on a fiscal year
21 Q. -- at the design grade, all of it? 21 appropriation, so yes, for that particular
22 A. It has to be consistently applied. 22 fiscal year, or fiscal years, we needed funds,
23 Q. Okay. Now, I want us to be very 23 yes.
24 clear. The delays -- and I would assume there 24 Q. Okay. Another factor were -- was at
25 were delays. The record shows delays -- in 25 least one-well known environmental lawsuit;
Page 234 Page 236
59 (Pages 233 to 236)

1 correct? 1 Q. Katrina was not a Standard Project

2 A. Relating to the barrier plan? 2 Hurricane, was it?
3 Q. Correct. 3 A. That's correct.
4 A. Okay. 4 Q. It exceeded all of the dynamics or
5 Q. That was another factor; right? 5 characteristics of a Standard Project
6 A. I don't know if that impacted all of 6 Hurricane?
7 the levee system. It certainly impacted a 7 A. That's correct.
8 great deal of it, yes. 8 Q. For example, the elevation of the
9 Q. It didn't impact Reach 2, for 9 water got to 22 feet?
10 example, did it? 10 A. Something like that, I think.
11 A. No. 11 Q. And even if you had been at design
12 Q. Or Reach 1? 12 grade, which you told me you were not, at 17
13 A. No. 13 feet, 22 feet would have overwhelmed it;
14 Q. Or the IHNC? 14 correct?
15 A. No. 15 A. Yes, sir.
16 Q. But there were factors beyond the 16 Q. And the planning for the design
17 control of the Corps, and you identified one 17 grade for Reach 2 as well as Reach 1 of the
18 of them, which was availability of funding; 18 MRGO did not provide a measure of protection
19 correct? 19 for overtopping in excess of 17 and a half
20 A. Yes. 20 feet of water level; correct?
21 Q. And so the Corps had to go, or the 21 A. I do not believe it did.
22 Executive Branch had to go to the Congress in 22 Q. Okay. To provide that added measure
23 a piecemeal fashion for annual authorizations 23 of protection, the grade level would have to
24 for -- excuse me, annual appropriations for 24 have been considerably higher; right?
25 additional funds? 25 A. To handle Katrina type storms?
Page 237 Page 239
1 A. That's correct. 1 Q. Yes.

2 Q. With respect to the levees on Reach 2 A. I would imagine so, yes.
3 2, they performed as expected, as the Corps 3 Q. So is it fair to say that what
4 expected them to during and after Katrina, did 4 happened on Reach 2 and Reach 1 of the MRGO
5 they not? 5 with regard to whatever structures were built
6 A. I don't know what you mean by that 6 there by the Army Corps was not as a result of
7 question. During and after Katrina? 7 any design flaw or construction flaw?
8 Q. Okay. Hurricane Katrina hits. 8 A. Not that I am aware of.
9 A. Yeah. 9 Q. Okay. So whatever happened, I don't
10 Q. Hits this region. Okay? I think 10 want to be crude and repeat the bumper sticker
11 it's undisputed that water overtopped -- 11 that we see, but things happen?
12 A. Yes. 12 A. Yes, sir.
13 Q. -- whatever structures the Corps had 13 Q. And, unfortunately, this thing
14 built there? 14 happened at the time of Katrina.
15 A. That's correct. 15 A. Yes, sir.
16 Q. Passed into -- over the 40 Arpent 16 Q. Even if this structure along Reach 2
17 Canal and flooded major portions, if not all, 17 and Reach 1 of the MRGO had been at 20 feet,
18 of St. Bernard Parish? 18 it would have been overtopped; correct?
19 A. Right. 19 A. That's my understanding, yes.
20 Q. Shorthand. Okay? 20 Q. So as designed, if it had been at
21 A. Sure. 21 design grade, at 17 and a half feet, say,
22 Q. In terms of the planning, the Corps 22 along Reach 2 of the MRGO and you got water of
23 had planned for a Standard Project Hurricane; 23 22 feet, the fact that there was flooding was
24 correct? 24 not because of the failure of the -- whatever
25 A. Right. 25 flood works you had there to do their job?
Page 238 Page 240
60 (Pages 237 to 240)

1 A. Overtopping would have been 1 Q. Okay. So the reconnaissance study

2 catastrophic regardless. 2 was done by the Corps. You concluded there
3 Q. Right. Even if they weren't there; 3 was a Federal interest in increasing the
4 right? 4 margin of safety for the LPV levees?
5 A. Yes. 5 A. Yes.
6 Q. If there were no levees there, -- 6 Q. Okay. In that initial
7 A. No. 7 reconnaissance study, what level was
8 Q. -- you still would have had 8 discussed?
9 catastrophic flooding? 9 A. Well, since we were given only a few
10 A. Absolutely. No question. 10 hundred thousand dollars, we just looked at
11 Q. Because of the height of the water? 11 one small reach of levee in Jefferson Parish
12 A. Yes, sir. 12 and we showed that there would have been
13 Q. Had the Corps at any time up to 13 substantial savings if we were able to
14 Katrina, sir, asked Congress to provide funds 14 increase that elevation for a Category 5 type
15 to increase the measure of protection along 15 storm. And recognizing these were all done
16 Reach 2 or Reach 1 above 17 and a half feet? 16 with very rudimentary data that we had
17 A. Congress had authorized a study to 17 in-house, and that's what we used to justify
18 look at Category 5 type protection, and we had 18 going to the feasibility study.
19 started that effort around 1999 and 2000 time 19 Q. And when you say "savings", you take
20 frame. 20 the cost of a catastrophic hurricane that
21 Q. Was that study still underway at the 21 might have been prevented and contrast it with
22 time of Katrina? 22 the cost of increasing the margin of safety?
23 A. We were still working on it at the 23 It's a cost-benefit --
24 time of Katrina, yes. 24 A. Cost-benefit -- yes, a cost-benefit
25 Q. But Congress fully fund that study? 25 analysis.
Page 241 Page 243
1 A. They did not. But I will say that 1 Q. Okay. What levels were those, was
2 we also will require 50 percent of the funding 2 this hypothetical exercise, whatever, for
3 from the State of Louisiana as well, and we 3 reconnaissance study? What level would the
4 were working to get that at the time of 4 levees have gone to from where they were or
5 Katrina. 5 they were designed to be? To what additional
6 Q. So by 1999, the Corps was asking 6 level did Congress deal with a Cat 5?
7 Congress and the State of Louisiana to fund a 7 A. The Jefferson Parish lakefront levee
8 study to provide Category 5 protection? 8 is around 16.5. I don't really remember what
9 A. No. The way it works is this. 9 we had proposed in that reconnaissance study,
10 Congress gave the Corps money to do a 10 but it was about I think three to four feet
11 reconnaissance study at a 100 percent Federal 11 higher. I may be wrong in that. But it was
12 expense, which we completed and sent back 12 something in that range.
13 showing that there was Federal interest in 13 Q. Is that a public document, the
14 increasing the level of protection. This 14 reconnaissance study?
15 started the process to start what's called a 15 A. Yes.
16 feasibility study. Now, this feasibility 16 Q. Can I get it off the website? Do
17 study, by law, or at least by -- we'll call it 17 you know?
18 Congress, required 50 percent contribution 18 A. I don't know if it's on the
19 from a local sponsor. So at the time of 19 website. We could probably find one.
20 Katrina, we at the Corps were developing a 20 Q. That would be great. I don't need
21 cost estimate for what that study would cost 21 it right now, but I would like to put it in
22 and working with the State of Louisiana to see 22 that collective works I'm going to leather
23 if they would fund 50 percent of the cost of 23 bound for you before we finish this case.
24 it so we could proceed with the feasibility 24 Would it be fair to say that if
25 study. 25 you had done a reconnaissance study for the
Page 242 Page 244
61 (Pages 241 to 244)

1 Reach 2 of the MRGO, that several feet of 1 Q. When was Hurricane Georges?
2 additional levee protection would have been 2 A. In '98.
3 probably recommended? 3 Q. Had there been significant flooding
4 A. Sure. 4 in parts of this region?
5 Q. Three to four feet? 5 A. No, but it scared people because it
6 A. I don't know. That area experienced 6 came close.
7 higher stages so it might have been higher 7 Q. Okay. Post-Katrina, you have told
8 than that even. 8 me, I have read a lot, that the Project
9 Q. Right. Right. You had the Lake 9 Guardian is increasing the height of the
10 Borgne effect there, too; right? 10 levees for the LPV. About how many feet are
11 A. Sure. Well, it's more open to the 11 they doing that?
12 Gulf than the Lake Pontchartrain is. 12 A. I don't know. After Katrina, Task
13 Q. Could have been five feet? 13 Force Guardian took over all the areas of work
14 A. Might have been. 14 on Lake Pontchartrain in Orleans and St.
15 Q. If you got five feet, that's 22 and 15 Bernard Parish. So I basically fell out of
16 a half feet, you might have been okay. I know 16 that piece of the project after Katrina.
17 this is hypothetical. But that would have 17 Q. Okay. Fine. Are you familiar with
18 provided at least another measure of 18 a document called "Better and stronger"?
19 protection; right? 19 A. Sounds familiar.
20 A. If you'd had 20 years to build it, 20 MR. O'DONNELL:
21 yes. 21 Robin, just so you have it handy,
22 Q. Is that the problem, it takes 20 22 that's the one I was talking to you
23 years to plan and build? 23 about earlier.
24 A. Well, it takes a while. It takes 24 MR. SMITH:
25 funding, and a lot of things. You know, these 25 Sure.
Page 245 Page 247
1 projects don't evaporate or start overnight. 1 MR. O'DONNELL:

2 Q. Do you know when the Army Corps of 2 Let's mark this as the next in
3 Engineers after 1965 first started 3 order if we could, please.
4 contemplating or thinking that higher than 17 4 MR. ANDRY:
5 and a half feet grade level might be needed 5 16.
6 for the LPV structures? 6 EXAMINATION BY MR. O'DONNELL:
7 A. I don't know. I mean, there's a lot 7 Q. Number 16. Number 16 was marked as
8 of people at the Corps with different ideas. 8 Exhibit 2 in the Richard -- is it Richard
9 Q. Well, you were involved starting in 9 Larusso -- yes, deposition. It is from the
10 the late '80s to late '90s; right? 10 Army Corps' website.
11 A. No, I was involved with this project 11 A. Okay.
12 starting in '98. 12 Q. It is a post-Katrina publication.
13 Q. Oh, '98. I'm sorry. Did you 13 A. Okay.
14 initiate the reconnaissance study? 14 Q. Called "Better and stronger".
15 A. No. That came from Congress and I 15 That's the Corps castle up in the left-hand
16 was asked to manage that. 16 corner?
17 Q. To your knowledge, did the local 17 A. Yes.
18 interests ask Congress to authorize this 18 Q. The logo? Have you seen this
19 reconnaissance study? 19 before?
20 A. They got scared after Hurricane 20 A. I have probably come across it on
21 Georges and went to Congress and asked for the 21 one of our websites. It's updated I think
22 authorization. Congress -- One of the 22 probably on a regular basis.
23 committees of Congress authorized a study and 23 Q. Under the section "Planned
24 provided the funds in the next appropriation 24 improvements", do you see that?
25 bill for us to proceed. 25 A. Yes.
Page 246 Page 248
62 (Pages 245 to 248)

1 Q. It says first they're going to be 1 MR. SMITH:

2 rebuilding and raising levees and floodwalls 2 At what location? I'm sorry.
3 to their design height. 3 MR. O'DONNELL:
4 A. Uh-huh (affirmatively). 4 Reach 2.
5 Q. Okay? And is that underway, to your 5 THE WITNESS:
6 knowledge? 6 I don't know. I think the 100
7 A. Yes. 7 year elevations are based on the 100
8 Q. Okay. Is there anything planned by 8 year frequency analyses that were
9 Task Force Guardian to increase the levees and 9 done, which may or may not protect you
10 floodwalls beyond the design height at the 10 from a Katrina type storm depending on
11 time of Katrina? 11 path and various meteorological
12 A. Task Force Guardian does not exist 12 differences. I am not the person you
13 any more. It's been taken over by our 13 might -- You might want to talk to
14 Hurricane Protection Office, which is a formal 14 Nancy about the hydraulics of that.
15 organization within our District. 15 EXAMINATION BY MR. O'DONNELL:
16 Q. Okay. Does the Hurricane Protection 16 Q. Okay. Well, we had Hurricane Betsy
17 Office have any plans underway to increase the 17 in 1965; right?
18 levees and floodwalls for the LPV area above 18 A. Yes.
19 the pre-Katrina design height? 19 Q. And we had Katrina in 19- -- Excuse
20 A. Yes, our plans are to go to the 20 me, 2005?
21 redefined 100 year level of protection both in 21 A. Yes.
22 the Hurricane Protection Office and in the 22 Q. Almost 40 years to the day apart;
23 Protection and Restoration Office, of which I 23 right?
24 am a member. 24 A. That's correct.
25 Q. Okay. What's the redefined 100 year 25 Q. In that 40 year interval, we have
Page 249 Page 251
1 level? 1 had hurricanes that inflicted catastrophic

2 A. Well, we've had -- we did model 2 flooding on the New Orleans region; right?
3 studies to come up with the revised 100 year 3 A. No.
4 elevation based on numerous model studies, 4 Q. No?
5 alignments, paths, and storms -- strengths of 5 A. (Witness shakes head negatively.)
6 storms and use that information to develop 6 Q. Did Katrina inflict catastrophic
7 revised levee heights based on authorization 7 flooding?
8 by Congress in a post-Katrina world. 8 A. You said between those times. There
9 Q. Is the redefined 100 year level 9 were no catastrophic hurricanes since
10 equivalent to a Category 5 hurricane? 10 Hurricane Betsy.
11 A. 100 year -- It's probably not 11 Q. No, no. Bad question. Sorry. My
12 equivalent -- Category 5 -- I do not define 12 bad.
13 protection of a city by the Saffer Simpson 13 A. All right.
14 scale. 14 Q. There was catastrophic flooding of
15 Q. Okay. What do you use? 15 the New Orleans region as a result of
16 A. Surge elevation. 16 Hurricane Betsy; correct?
17 Q. Surge elevation. Okay. 17 A. Correct.
18 A. The Category 5 is -- is a general 18 Q. And there was, 40 years later almost
19 measure that people like to use because it's 19 to the day, catastrophic flooding of the same
20 familiar to folks. But in reality, it relates 20 general area in New Orleans and St. Bernard
21 to wind speed. 21 Parish as a result of Hurricane Katrina.
22 Q. Okay. Let's deal with surge level. 22 A. Okay.
23 22 feet of surge during Katrina. Are they 23 Q. Right?
24 redesigning the levees and floodwalls to hit 24 A. Right.
25 22 feet? 25 Q. Okay. So that was a 40 year
Page 250 Page 252
63 (Pages 249 to 252)

1 interval; right? 1 Here you go, Robin. Two of

2 A. Right. 2 them.
3 Q. I'm not trying to be simplistic, but 3 This is Exhibit Number what?
4 in the 100 year, redefined 100 year level 4 MR. ANDRY:
5 planning for estimated maximum surge, do you 5 17.
6 know what surge height they're using? 6 EXAMINATION BY MR. O'DONNELL:
7 A. It varies depending on location, and 7 Q. Sir, I have marked for you a copy of
8 I am not familiar with every location to be 8 Exhibit 17, which is a U.S. Army Corps of
9 able to tell you what that would be. 9 Engineers document. It's the Lake
10 Q. Do you know of any location? 10 Pontchartrain Louisiana and Vicinity Chalmette
11 A. I deal on the west bank now and we 11 area plan, design memorandum number 3, general
12 are looking at the 100 year elevation of about 12 design. Do you see that?
13 14 feet along the Harvey Canal, and that's 13 A. Yes, sir.
14 what I am familiar with now. Because I don't 14 Q. And the prior exhibit we looked at,
15 deal with Lake Pontchartrain now. 15 13, for the Citrus Back Levee was also a
16 Q. And the Harvey Canal, what was the 16 general design memo; right?
17 grade level before Katrina? 17 A. That's correct.
18 A. Actually it was very close to that. 18 Q. So I could probably reasonably --
19 Q. So not much of an adjustment? 19 Well, this one is dated November, 1966, which
20 A. Not much of an adjustment. It 20 is approximately a year or less earlier than
21 depends on the location again. Whether or not 21 the August, 1967 Citrus Back Levee; right?
22 it's subject to wave dynamics. 22 A. Yes, sir.
23 Q. How about Reach 2? 23 Q. Now, you have seen this before,
24 A. I don't know. I know it's higher. 24 haven't you?
25 I just don't know how much higher. 25 A. I believe I have, yes.
Page 253 Page 255
1 Q. Okay. Go into the document a few 1 Q. Okay. It has in the early part, we
2 more pages to a section called "Program 2 see again those series of the chain of command
3 summary", would you, please? 3 transmittals and approvals?
4 A. Which? You talking about this 4 A. Yes, sir.
5 document (indicating)? 5 Q. Okay. I'm going to take less time
6 Q. Yes. Exhibit 16. 6 with this document, sir, than I did the prior
7 A. All right. 7 one because you have been so helpful in
8 Q. Now, the levees that they're 8 telling me what the component pieces are. I
9 describing here, the 269 miles of levees, 9 just have some specific information I would
10 those are the LPV levees? 10 like to ask you if I can get to the beginning
11 A. No, it's probably more including 11 of this document.
12 west bank and New Orleans defense levees down 12 Okay. You've got to go into the
13 in Plaquemines Parish. 13 document about three-quarters of an inch to
14 Q. How many miles are they? Do you 14 get to this transmittal letter of 1 November
15 know? 15 1966 (indicating).
16 A. Ah, I don't know. I mean, this 16 A. Got it.
17 total, this might be the total amount. 17 Q. You got it? Good job. If we go to
18 Q. Okay. But of that whole 269 miles, 18 the next two pages later, "Status of design
19 it says 60 percent were damaged; right? 19 memoranda", do you see that?
20 A. Yes. Yes, sir. 20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Okay. We can clip and put in the 21 Q. This is similar to the topic and
22 discard pile Exhibit 13. 22 timetable we saw in the prior document;
23 We had so much fun with that one, 23 correct?
24 now we're going to go to another one. 24 A. Yes, sir.
25 MR. O'DONNELL: 25 Q. Okay. And go to page 2. Because
Page 254 Page 256
64 (Pages 253 to 256)

1 when we use the term "Chalmette area plan", I 1 Q. It says "A, The net levee grades --"
2 want to make sure we know what we're talking 2 That's the height of the levee; right?
3 about. You see page 2 of the status of design 3 A. Right.
4 memoranda continued? 4 Q. "-- were revised upward in
5 A. Oh, hold on. 5 accordance with the results of tidal hydraulic
6 Q. I'm sorry. It's the second page of 6 studies utilizing the latest hurricane
7 this schedule. 7 parameters developed by the U.S. Weather
8 A. Of this one right here? 8 Bureau and information derived from the
9 Q. Yes. It starts with "Design memo 9 passage of the major Hurricane Betsy in
10 number 3" at the top? 10 September, 1965." Okay?
11 A. Yes. 11 A. Yes, sir.
12 Q. Perfect. Great. So just so we know 12 Q. Do you know what -- how much the
13 what's constitutes the Chalmette area plan, 13 increase was?
14 first there's a GDM, general design memo; 14 A. Not offhand, no.
15 right? 15 Q. Well, with any luck, we'll probably
16 A. Yes. 16 find it in here. It should be in here
17 Q. Which is November, '66? 17 somewhere; right?
18 A. Uh-huh (affirmatively). Yes. 18 A. I would think so.
19 Q. Then there's an Inner Harbor 19 Q. Item D, could you read that for us,
20 navigation canal, T type floodwall site and 20 the first sentence?
21 crossing. 21 A. Page 7?
22 A. Okay. 22 Q. Yes. Item D.
23 Q. Right? 23 A. "Along the IHNC the sheet piling
24 A. Right. 24 wall with concrete cap providing a project
25 Q. And then there's going to be a DDM. 25 document plan has been replaced by an I-wall
Page 257 Page 259
1 What's a DDM? 1 type floodwall."

2 A. That's called detailed design 2 Q. What's an I-type floodwall?
3 memorandum. 3 A. It's an I-wall. Basically a sheet
4 Q. Okay. That's something that comes 4 pile with a concrete -- cap with a concrete
5 after the GDM? 5 wall.
6 A. Usually, yes. 6 Q. Okay. And what's a T-wall?
7 Q. And those are for the Bayous 7 A. A T-wall, it's the letter T inverted
8 Bienvenu and Dupre control structures; right? 8 with piles, foundation piles supporting it,
9 A. Yes. 9 driven deep enough into the foundation to keep
10 Q. Nothing else on this schedule deals 10 it from overturning.
11 with Chalmette area plan, does it? 11 Q. So they're lateral?
12 A. I don't think so. 12 A. What's lateral?
13 Q. Let's go to page 6-7, which is 13 Q. Well, this is a T, right, inverted T
14 "Departures from project plan". 14 (indicating)?
15 A. 6? 15 A. Uh-huh (affirmatively).
16 Q. 6 -- Page 6 of the document. I'm 16 Q. So the I-wall is just steel or sheet
17 sorry. Page 6. 17 put down into the ground; right?
18 A. Okay. 18 A. Uh-huh (affirmatively).
19 Q. You got that? 19 Q. Is there concrete on the bottom or
20 A. Uh-huh (affirmatively). 20 not?
21 Q. It says "Departures from project 21 A. Well, concrete on the top.
22 document plan". Do you see that down there? 22 Q. But for an I-wall, there's a cross
23 A. Yes. 23 beam of steel?
24 Q. Go to the next page, 7. 24 A. You mean the T-wall?
25 A. Uh-huh (affirmatively). 25 Q. T-wall. I'm sorry.
Page 258 Page 260
65 (Pages 257 to 260)

1 A. A T-wall, the T is made out of 1 Q. The Corps, post-Katrina, did some

2 reinforced concrete. Concrete reinforced with 2 LIDAR surveys; correct?
3 steel. The base, some thickness that we 3 A. Post-Katrina, I believe they did.
4 design, has piles sticking into it that 4 Q. And to try to determine, at least
5 penetrate deeply into the subsoil to support 5 for those portions that had not totally eroded
6 the structure. 6 away along Reach 2, what the height was at the
7 Q. When is a T-wall recommended as 7 time of Katrina?
8 opposed to an I-wall? 8 A. I assume that's what the purpose
9 A. You would have to talk to the 9 was.
10 Engineering designers about that. 10 Q. What's LIDAR?
11 Q. Has something to do with the 11 A. LIDAR is a surveying method --
12 solidity of the upper underlying ground; 12 methodology using lasers that's taken from an
13 correct? 13 aircraft and lasers bounce off the ground and
14 A. I couldn't tell you. 14 give readings back to the aircraft so they can
15 Q. If you go to page 8, sir, you see 15 read off the elevations.
16 the design elevations discussion? 16 Q. And that's a tool that engineers
17 A. Yes. 17 use?
18 Q. You see that? 18 A. Yes.
19 A. Uh-huh (affirmatively). 19 Q. How recent is that technology; do
20 Q. There's a sentence that says as 20 you know?
21 follows. "Between Paris Road and Violet where 21 A. I would say within the last ten
22 wave action will occur, an allowance varying 22 years. Maybe less.
23 from 4.3 to 4.7 feet was made for computed 23 Q. For the Chalmette area plan of the
24 wave run-up, yielding a net grade of 17.5." 24 LPV, did the cost estimates originally made in
25 Do you see that? 25 1966 increase over time?
Page 261 Page 263
1 A. Yes, sir. 1 A. Yes, they did.

2 Q. And that was the authorized grade 2 Q. Can you tell me by what factor
3 level from thereafter; right? 3 approximately?
4 A. I believe that's correct. 4 A. At least by a factor of 10. Some
5 Q. It says "The controlling elevation 5 areas less, some areas more, depending on when
6 of the structures at Bayou Bienvenu and Bayou 6 they were built.
7 Dupre has been set at 17.5 feet." 7 Let me back off. I don't know if
8 A. Yes. 8 the Chalmette area plan increased by that
9 Q. And that makes sense, because it's 9 much, because most of the increases occurred
10 the same height as what's around it; right? 10 in those areas that had not been built,
11 A. Pretty much. 11 primarily Jefferson and St. Charles Parish.
12 Q. Okay. At the time of Katrina, how 12 So I don't think Chalmette would have
13 close to 17 and a half feet was any section 13 increased that much, no.
14 you're aware of of Reach 2 of the levees? 14 Q. But there was a multi-factor
15 A. The area -- I think the area down 15 increase?
16 towards the Verret area where the turn is, 16 A. There was a factor increase, yes.
17 that was pretty close to being at the proper 17 Just because a lot of it is due to price
18 grade. But again, I would have to go back and 18 increases, general high inflation in the '70s.
19 look at the surveys again. But that was 19 Q. Right. And the longer you take, the
20 probably the last area that had been 20 more it costs?
21 constructed. 21 A. Yes.
22 Q. All right. But further up the reach 22 Q. Let me see if I can find the
23 toward the GIWW was not 17 and a half feet? 23 schedule. Turn, if you would, please, to page
24 A. Between Bienvenu and Dupre, I don't 24 63. I'm sorry, it's page 57. I'm sorry.
25 think it was, no. 25 A. 57?
Page 262 Page 264
66 (Pages 261 to 264)

1 Q. Yes. 1 A. And the local sponsor.

2 A. All right. 2 Q. And the local sponsor. Oh, yes.
3 Q. It's the schedule for design and 3 After numbered page 65, there's an
4 construction. 4 Appendix A, "Fish and wildlife studies". Do
5 A. Yes. 5 you see that?
6 Q. You see that? 6 A. Uh-huh (affirmatively).
7 A. Yes, sir. 7 Q. Okay. And then go a couple of pages
8 Q. For the Chalmette area plan? 8 in. There's a vicinity map. Do you see
9 A. Okay. 9 that?
10 Q. And it takes us -- Go to page 61. 10 A. Okay.
11 A. Okay. 11 Q. And then the next thing is a plan
12 Q. The last entry on the left column, 12 and profile.
13 "Levee final shaping, station 87 -- 807 plus 13 A. Yes.
14 zero zero to 978 plus zero zero, seeding and 14 Q. What is a plan and profile?
15 fertilizing? 15 A. Well, if you're look at the drawing,
16 A. Yes. 16 the top is a plan. Basically if you're
17 Q. "Estimated construction completion, 17 looking down on the project from above.
18 June, 1987". 18 Q. From above. Okay. Good.
19 A. Yes. 19 A. Then below that is a corresponding
20 Q. "Start of design, 1966". 20 profile. It is looking across.
21 A. Okay. 21 Q. Got it. Okay. So the top -- What's
22 Q. So under this -- under the estimates 22 the upper left corner? The little quadrant in
23 that were made back in 1966, the Corps was 23 the upper left?
24 estimating that the completion of the 24 A. That just looks like -- looks like a
25 Chalmette area plan could take some 19 years 25 little -- I can't really make that out. It's
Page 265 Page 267
1 or so? 1 some type of insert for some reason. I can't

2 A. Yeah. That was primarily due to 2 tell you what that is.
3 having to reconstruct levees due to 3 Q. Okay. So can we tell what section
4 subsidence. Settling. 4 -- I know it's poorly copied. Is this a
5 Q. Right. Due to subsidence? 5 section along the -- yes, IHNC?
6 A. Yes. 6 A. It starts at the lock, the IHNC
7 Q. And we learned from Mr. Baumy that 7 lock.
8 there's a thing called the compaction curve or 8 Q. Okay. And the lock is at the
9 whatever which has to do where engineers, the 9 Mississippi River; right?
10 geotechnical people, estimate, when you put a 10 A. Close to it. Yes.
11 certain additional amount of dirt on, how long 11 Q. Close to it. And that's because the
12 it will take to have the subsidence before you 12 water levels are different?
13 can put another enlargement on. Is that 13 A. Yes.
14 correct? 14 Q. Okay. Is there only one lock on the
15 A. That's correct. 15 IHNC?
16 Q. And so it's like, if you will, 16 A. Yes.
17 building a layer cake? You have to wait? 17 Q. So when we measured that approximate
18 Part of the delay is you just have to wait; 18 5.8 miles of distance, that was from the
19 right? 19 Mississippi River here all the way out to the
20 A. Yes, you're waiting on nature. 20 lake; right?
21 Q. Right. And Congress. 21 A. From the lock to the lake.
22 A. Well, you're waiting on a lot of 22 Q. Lock to the lake. Okay. So we now
23 things. But nature primarily before you can 23 see that the plan and the scale is in the
24 do anything. And then Congress. 24 upper part here; right?
25 Q. And then Congress. Okay? 25 A. The plan view is in the top part of
Page 266 Page 268
67 (Pages 265 to 268)

1 the map, yes. 1 A. Yes.

2 Q. We see an area here, I-type 2 Q. What does that mean?
3 floodwall levee; right? 3 A. Eight feet below zero.
4 A. Okay. 4 Q. Below?
5 Q. And then there's levee and baseline 5 A. Whatever zero is.
6 in the upper right corner? Do you see that? 6 Q. What is zero here?
7 A. Yes. 7 A. Well, zero is zero. I mean, it's a
8 Q. What's baseline? 8 -- In other words, if the wall is at 15 and
9 A. That's where surveyors use a 9 the bottom of the sheet pile is minus 8, you
10 baseline to lay out -- In other words, they 10 add those two numbers together, you get 23 is
11 lay out a line and they reference everything 11 the total length of --
12 off that line, so that's considered the 12 Q. The sheet pile.
13 baseline. 13 A. Well, not necessarily the sheet
14 Q. Would that be the existing height or 14 pile. It's sheet pile plus the concrete cap.
15 crown at that point? 15 Q. Because we see the bottom of
16 A. The baseline isn't necessarily along 16 concrete elevation, 7 feet; right?
17 the southern line of a levee. Sometimes it 17 A. Right. Right.
18 is. It looks like it is in this case. It's 18 Q. Top of sheet piling, 10 feet?
19 not necessarily that. 19 A. Right.
20 Q. It is a reference point? 20 Q. So the crown of the new levee that
21 A. It is a reference. 21 is going to be raised is 9 feet, and the
22 Q. The lower portion is a side or 22 incremental 6 feet, to get to 15 feet is
23 lateral view; correct? 23 provided by the combination of sheet piling
24 A. Correct. 24 and concrete?
25 Q. This shows us the proposed design 25 A. Yes.
Page 269 Page 271
1 and how we get up to 17 and a half feet? 1 Q. Okay. Now, what are all of these
2 A. No. 2 little things that look like a barber pole
3 Q. What is this? 3 down the left side?
4 A. This area is not 17 and a half feet. 4 A. Those are boring logs taken from
5 Q. I'm sorry. Forgive me. Whatever it 5 soil borings.
6 is. What is the design grade? 6 Q. Is that from the soil
7 A. This says the top of the wall is 15 7 classification?
8 at this location. According to this. 8 A. It should be, yes.
9 Q. Where is that number? 9 Q. If it were legible, right?
10 A. (Indicating). 10 A. Well, yeah.
11 Q. Oh, yeah, where it says "Elevation, 11 Q. And it would tell you what kind of
12 15 feet". Good, Pierce. Okay. 12 soil?
13 Top of I-type wall elevation, 15 13 A. Yes. More or less.
14 feet. Right? 14 Q. And what are the numbers there?
15 A. Yes. 15 Does that have something to do with --
16 Q. And then below that are layers of 16 A. You need to talk to a geotechnical
17 what? What the construction is going to be? 17 engineer. This is getting beyond what I know.
18 Oh, I see. I see sheet piling, bottom of 18 Q. Okay. Let's go to the next page.
19 sheet piling. Right? 19 This is a plan and profile for a different
20 A. Yeah. 20 area; right?
21 Q. Eight feet. 21 A. This is the next area down or up the
22 A. Uh-huh (affirmatively). 22 canal.
23 Q. Below surface. 23 Q. So if I followed this trail of these
24 A. Yes. Well, -- 24 documents, I would be progressively moving up
25 Q. It says minus 8.0? 25 along -- I would be progressively moving along
Page 270 Page 272
68 (Pages 269 to 272)

1 the segments towards Lake Pontchartrain? 1 Q. And goes to station 180 plus zero
2 A. Well, along wherever this leads, and 2 zero; right?
3 this would probably lead around the GIWW. 3 A. Yes, uh-huh.
4 Q. Ah, got it. Okay. Let's go to -- 4 Q. So it looks like we're along the top
5 yes, Let's go to the turn. It's a few plans 5 part of the GIWW Reach 1; right?
6 down. There it is right there. No. Where it 6 A. Yes.
7 turns? Is that the turn? 7 Q. Okay. And it ends at station 180
8 A. I don't have -- 8 plus zero; and if I go to the next page,
9 Q. You're looking at the back side. 9 eureka, it picks up at station 180 plus zero
10 A. (Indicating)? 10 zero and proceeds to station 290 plus zero
11 Q. That's it. Yes. It's the turn 11 zero; right?
12 around. Okay. 12 A. Correct.
13 MR. SMITH: 13 Q. And there's a scale here that tells
14 Is this plate number 6? 14 me how long 1,000 feet is, isn't there?
15 THE WITNESS: 15 A. Yes.
16 Number 7, I think, isn't it? 16 Q. And it looks like -- Oh, I am not
17 MR. O'DONNELL: 17 going to try to do that. Elevation here also,
18 Number 7, Robin. 18 net grade elevation appears to be 14 feet;
19 EXAMINATION BY MR. O'DONNELL: 19 right? A little more legible?
20 Q. Okay. You see the plate number 7, 20 A. Looks like it, yes.
21 sir? 21 Q. This ends at station 290 and picks
22 A. Uh-huh (affirmatively). 22 up on the next page at station 290 plus zero
23 Q. And I guess this is where the IHNC 23 zero as well. Do you see that?
24 meets the MRGO? 24 A. Yes.
25 A. And the GIWW, yes. 25 Q. Now it's making its turn from the
Page 273 Page 275
1 Q. And the GIWW. And again, the top 1 GIWW/MRGO into the Reach 2 of the MRGO; right?
2 part is a bird's eye view looking downward; 2 A. Right.
3 right? 3 Q. And shouldn't we see at some point
4 A. Yes. 4 in this or maybe the next one or two the Bayou
5 Q. And then the bottom half is the side 5 Bienvenu control structure?
6 or lateral view. 6 A. It's right there on page -- plate
7 A. Right. 7 number 10.
8 Q. And can you tell what the grade 8 Q. There it is; right?
9 level here is? Yes. 9 A. Yeah.
10 A. Not really. 10 Q. By the way, on plate 10, they
11 Q. It says 14.0, I think, doesn't it? 11 identify that last stretch of Reach 1 as
12 A. Your eyes are better than mine. I 12 "MR/GO". Do you see that?
13 can't tell anything. It might be that, yes. 13 A. Where?
14 Q. Whatever it is. Okay. And there's 14 Q. On plate 10, upper left corner, you
15 station numbers along here, aren't there? 15 see that in the channel it says "MR/GO"?
16 A. Yes, there are. 16 A. Uh-huh (affirmatively).
17 Q. God bless them. 17 Q. And then further up, an arrow points
18 So on the right -- the upper -- 18 to Gulf Intracoastal Waterway?
19 the upper bird's eye view, the right corner, 19 A. Uh-huh (affirmatively).
20 you see station 80 plus zero zero? 20 Q. In that direction. You see?
21 A. Yes. 21 A. Yes.
22 Q. If you go to the next page of the 22 Q. Now, the structure is the one that
23 document in sequence, it picks up in the upper 23 says "Structure" at station 360 plus zero
24 left at station 80 plus zero zero; right? 24 zero?
25 A. Okay. 25 A. Yes.
Page 274 Page 276
69 (Pages 273 to 276)

1 Q. Okay. And that's the Bayou 1 A. Yes.

2 Bienvenu? 2 Q. Plate 11 is 17 and a half feet?
3 A. Right. 3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Right to the left of Bayou Bienvenu; 4 Q. Plate 10 is 17 and a half feet?
5 right? 5 A. Yes.
6 A. Yes. 6 Q. But plate number 9, we're back to
7 Q. And just one more. The next one 7 net grade at feet?
8 picks up at station -- It goes to the next 8 A. That's a transition right there.
9 segment; right? It goes from 380 plus zero 9 Q. At the transition. And if we go to
10 zero to 420 plus zero zero. Do you see that? 10 plate 8, we're at 14 feet; correct?
11 A. Yes. 11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Plate number 11; right? 12 Q. Plate 7, 14 feet?
13 A. Okay. 13 A. I can't make out this one, what that
14 Q. And if I continued this exercise, 14 is.
15 plates 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, plate 16 I get to 15 Q. Looks to me like 14. That's okay.
16 Violet. Plate 18. 16 Plate number 6, 14 feet?
17 A. Plate 18? 17 A. No. Well, --
18 Q. Yes. 18 Q. It says "crown of levee, net grade"?
19 A. Yes. 19 A. It varies. The crown of the levee
20 Q. And that's -- At that point, that's 20 is at 14 and then it goes to I-wall at 16.
21 where the LPV is contemplated to run and then 21 Q. 16. Okay. So it's two different
22 make its turn down the Violet Canal; right? 22 heights. Do you know why there's a
23 A. That's correct. 23 difference?
24 Q. Later that was abandoned and 24 A. No.
25 augmented by Congress for the extension; 25 Q. Okay. Plate number 5 has one
Page 277 Page 279
1 right? 1 elevation of 16 feet and then two other

2 A. The extension was augmented. 2 elevations for other sub-segments at 15 feet;
3 Q. Which was often called in planning 3 right?
4 documents the Chalmette area extension? 4 A. Right.
5 A. That's correct. 5 Q. Plate 4 has a -- with the I-wall an
6 Q. Okay. By the way, let's just look 6 elevation of 15 feet. Correct? Plate 4?
7 at the Violet. Now we see net grade elevation 7 A. Right.
8 in plate 18 of 17 and a half feet? 8 Q. That segment?
9 A. Yes. 9 A. Right.
10 Q. And if I work my way backwards to 10 Q. And we're almost done. Plate 3 has,
11 plate 17, it's 17 and a half feet? Is that 11 with I-wall, I-type wall, elevation 15 feet.
12 correct? 12 A. Correct.
13 A. Yes. 13 Q. Plate 2 has, with the I-type wall,
14 Q. And plate 16, that segment of Reach 14 elevation of 15 feet.
15 2 of the MRGO is also net design grade of 17 15 A. Right.
16 and a half feet? 16 Q. Okay. Would it be fair to conclude
17 A. Yes. 17 that the reason why the elevations
18 Q. Again, plate 14, that segment, 18 consistently in Reach 2 of the MRGO in this
19 working backwards of MRGO, has a net grade of 19 design memorandum are 17 and a half feet is
20 17 and a half? 20 the planners were aware of the fact that the
21 A. Correct. 21 -- that portion of MRGO would be subjected to
22 Q. The prior plate, 13, that segment is 22 a higher level of water during a hurricane
23 17 and a half feet net grade? 23 than the other sections?
24 A. Yes. 24 A. No.
25 Q. Plate 12 is also 17 and a half feet? 25 Q. Okay. Why is there the difference?
Page 278 Page 280
70 (Pages 277 to 280)

1 A. I believe that in -- You can talk to 1 MR. SMITH:

2 the hydrologist about this, but I believe it 2 This follows plate 70? Is that
3 was based on wave run-up calculations. 3 right?
4 Q. Wave run-up calculations. Okay. 4 MR. O'DONNELL:
5 And there will be more wave run-up along Reach 5 Yes. 71.
6 2 because of the exposure to Lake Borgne? 6 MR. SMITH:
7 A. Because of the way that levee was 7 71. Okay. So if you get into
8 shaped in its design and its reaction to the 8 the numbered ones, it will come after
9 potential waves that it would encounter. 9 the conclusion of the numbered
10 Q. Including waves coming off of Lake 10 plates.
11 Borgne? 11 THE WITNESS:
12 A. Yes. 12 I see it.
13 Q. Do you know whether, when this 13 EXAMINATION BY MR. O'DONNELL:
14 document was prepared, design memorandum 14 Q. Do you see the unified soil
15 number 3, general design for the Chalmette 15 classification?
16 area plan, the Army Corps planners took into 16 A. Yes.
17 account the loss of wetlands between Lake 17 Q. What is that?
18 Borgne and Reach 2 of the MRGO? 18 A. What I know about this plate is what
19 A. I have no idea. 19 I learned in school. I have never dealt with
20 Q. Was it generally known by the Corps 20 it since then.
21 in 1966 that wetlands provided a buffering 21 Q. You know more than I did. I studied
22 effect during hurricanes? 22 Beowulf.
23 A. I have no idea. 23 A. You know more about Beowulf.
24 Q. Are you aware of that today? 24 Q. Okay. You probably know more than I
25 A. Wetlands do provide some buffering 25 do.
Page 281 Page 283
1 effect. It varies depending on what type of 1 You said earlier that the local
2 wetlands, where they are, how they're located, 2 people were worried about Hurricane -- had
3 what kind of features are in front of them, 3 been scared or frightened by Hurricane
4 behind them, whether they're cypress or what 4 Georges.
5 -- you know, a lot of variable. 5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Right. Cypress provide significant 6 Q. And asked Congress to authorize some
7 protection, don't they? 7 funding for the reconnaissance study?
8 A. They provide some protection. A lot 8 A. Yes.
9 depends on barrier islands. A lot of 9 Q. What were they scared about; do you
10 variations that are in the -- very complex. 10 know?
11 Q. I'm not going to ask you another 11 A. They were scared of a catastrophic
12 question about it. 12 inundation that could eventuate from a storm
13 Okay. Let's find this. It's 13 like Hurricane Georges.
14 plate A, sir. It's back -- 14 Q. Was Georges a near-miss for New
15 A. 8? 15 Orleans?
16 Q. A. It's called "Soil boring 16 A. Yes, it was.
17 legend". Do you see that? 17 Q. In this document after this soils
18 MR. SMITH: 18 classification, there's another section called
19 What does it follow, Pierce? 19 "Chalmette Extension Levee". Do you see
20 MR. O'DONNELL: 20 that?
21 It follows "Design procedure 21 A. Yes.
22 stability". A lot of stability 22 MR. O'DONNELL:
23 analyses. Well, a couple of pages. 23 Robin, I would like to mark that
24 Preceded by figures in table -- Let me 24 as a separate exhibit. Do you mind if
25 find it for you. 25 I just attach it?
Page 282 Page 284
71 (Pages 281 to 284)

1 MR. SMITH: 1 correct?

2 No. 2 A. It's a profile.
3 MR. O'DONNELL: 3 Q. Better yet. A profile. Okay?
4 Everybody just mark it as -- That 4 A. Yes.
5 will be 18. Because it is a 5 Q. And what are the things that are
6 significant document. We're going to 6 profiled? They're on the right side.
7 mark this next exhibit as -- 7 A. What do you mean "on the right
8 THE WITNESS: 8 side"?
9 Can I put this one on it? 9 Q. This (indicating).
10 EXAMINATION BY MR. O'DONNELL: 10 MR. SMITH:
11 Q. Absolutely. Please. And if he 11 The legend.
12 gives you a reason not to -- 12 EXAMINATION BY MR. O'DONNELL:
13 A. It's a stack of paper. 13 Q. Oh, forgive me. The legend.
14 MR. O'DONNELL: 14 A. The storm surge design elevation,
15 Is this Number 18, Robin? 15 2005 levee press and 2000 levee press.
16 MR. SMITH: 16 Q. Okay. So if we wanted to know
17 18. 17 according to the Corps' analysis where the
18 MR. O'DONNELL: 18 crown was in 2000 versus 2005, this would tell
19 Well, we have been going for a 19 us?
20 while. Why don't we take a five 20 A. It should give you a pretty good
21 minute break if that's okay. 21 approximation, yes.
22 (Recess.) 22 Q. And if we wanted to know what the
23 MR. O'DONNELL: 23 storm -- What's the first point of the legend?
24 Before I go to Exhibit 18, let's 24 A. Says "storm surge".
25 mark this as the next -- 25 Q. Storm surge height?
Page 285 Page 287
1 VIDEO OPERATOR: 1 A. Uh-huh (affirmatively).

2 Just a second. On the record. 2 Q. Now, that's not from LIDAR. That's
3 MR. O'DONNELL: 3 from some other source?
4 Before I go back to Exhibit 18, 4 A. That was probably -- I don't know
5 let's mark this as 19 if we would, 5 what the source is.
6 Robin. That's the color, for the 6 Q. The other one, the other data is
7 record, of the black and white of this 7 LIDAR, but not that, the storm surge; right?
8 (indicating). 8 A. 2005 levee press and 2000 I'd
9 EXAMINATION BY MR. O'DONNELL: 9 presume are LIDAR data.
10 Q. Sir, I have shown you what's been 10 Q. Okay. Super. That's fine.
11 marked as Exhibit Number 19, which is some 11 MR. O'DONNELL:
12 excerpts from the IPET report. These are 12 Let's mark this then as the next
13 LIDAR surveys performed after Katrina -- 13 in order, which I think would be 20,
14 A. Uh-huh (affirmatively). 14 is it?
15 Q. -- of the elevation of the system or 15 MR. ANDRY:
16 all of Reach 2 of the MRGO. Do you see that? 16 Robin, is 20 the next?
18 Q. You have seen that before, haven't 18 That was 19. This will be 20.
19 you? 19 EXAMINATION BY MR. O'DONNELL:
20 A. No. 20 Q. Sir, I have put before you Exhibit
21 Q. Okay. And each page has a segment 21 20. You see that?
22 of the MRGO, does it not? 22 A. Uh-huh (affirmatively).
23 A. Okay. 23 Q. It's called "Table 15, design
24 Q. And on the top, I gave you the 24 elevation of protected -- protection
25 colored version, on the top is a graph; 25 pre-Katrina elevation, surge level and damage
Page 286 Page 288
72 (Pages 285 to 288)

1 for GNO HPS, Greater New Orleans Hurricane 1 Q. Do you know if the Corps did?
2 Protection System, elements exposed to Lake 2 A. I don't know.
3 Pontchartrain and Lake Borgne, FT LMSLO5". Do 3 Q. Okay.
4 you see that? 4 A. I just want to make sure I wasn't
5 A. Yes. 5 testifying as to the accuracy.
6 Q. I believe this is from the Team 6 Q. No, no, I wasn't asking you to do
7 Louisiana report. I'll represent that. 7 that. I was trying to interpret it. Let's go
8 MR. O'DONNELL: 8 back --
9 If I don't otherwise, Robin, I'll 9 MR. SMITH:
10 put on the record in the morning, but 10 Pierce, if I could just
11 I believe this is the source of it. 11 interrupt, what did you say it was?
13 Q. Have you seen this before? 13 I believe it's Team Louisiana. I
14 A. No. 14 am going to check it. I was told that
15 Q. But this table depicts the design 15 -- I have the CD-ROM of it. That's
16 elevation of various levee systems under the 16 one of my fun things tonight to do, to
17 LPV. Do you see that? 17 make sure that that's --
18 A. That's what it depicts? 18 EXAMINATION BY MR. O'DONNELL:
19 Q. Well, look at the second column, 19 Q. Let's go back to Exhibit 18 if we
20 "Design elevation". You see that? 20 could, sir.
21 A. Yes. 21 A. All right.
22 Q. So if we go down to the bottom, 22 Q. Exhibit 18 is for the Chalmette area
23 Chalmette, B. Lawler to Violet, 17 and a half 23 plan, design memo number 3, general design
24 feet. Do you see that? 24 supplement number 1, Chalmette extension. See
25 A. Yes. 25 that?
Page 289 Page 291
1 Q. Chalmette extension, Dupre to 1 A. Yes.

2 Verret, 17 and a half feet? 2 Q. And we have already -- you have
3 A. Yes. 3 already told us that the Chalmette extension,
4 Q. Citrus -- Up a little further, 4 Exhibit Number 5, is that portion that
5 Citrus Back Levee, West Paris Road, 15 feet? 5 Congress authorized between the Bayou Dupre
6 A. Uh-huh (affirmatively). 6 control structure down to Verret and over back
7 Q. And above that, East Paris Road, 18 7 to the Mississippi River. Right?
8 feet? 8 A. That's the extension portion.
9 A. Okay. 9 Q. Okay. Right. And again, if we just
10 Q. Okay. Then there's a column called 10 go through the early pages, we see the layers
11 "Observed elevation". Do you see that? 11 of authorization, approval, and comment --
12 A. Yes. 12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Then there's a calculation between 13 Q. -- within the Corps; right?
14 those two columns of the deficiency -- 14 A. Yes, sir.
15 A. Yes. 15 Q. And if we go to a few pages in, we
16 Q. -- below grade level. Right? 16 see "Status of design memoranda". It's right
17 A. Yes. But I don't know at this 17 after the 21 October '68.
18 point. 18 A. Yes.
19 Q. I don't know either, but somebody 19 Q. Okay. And again, this is a
20 did them, huh? 20 projected timetable for various activities;
21 A. I don't know. I don't know where 21 right?
22 these are from. 22 A. Yes.
23 Q. You didn't undertake any such 23 Q. And if I wanted to find the
24 analysis, did you? 24 Chalmette area extension, it's on the second
25 A. No, I did not. 25 page toward the middle, number -- It's design
Page 290 Page 292
73 (Pages 289 to 292)

1 memo number 3, supplement 1, Chalmette 1 A. I assume so.

2 extension; right? 2 Q. So the Army Corps of Engineers
3 A. Correct. 3 decided that they needed to modify the
4 Q. Said it was submitted October 21, 4 Congressionally approved plan, but they did
5 '68. 5 not go back to Congress for that; correct?
6 A. Yes. 6 A. It doesn't appear to be the case.
7 Q. Okay. And was the design grade 7 Q. Who was the local sponsor or local
8 level selected for the Chalmette area 8 interest for the extended area?
9 extension also 17 and a half feet? 9 A. It would be St. Bernard Parish and
10 A. I believe -- 10 Lake Borgne Levee District.
11 Q. At least along Reach 2 of MRGO? 11 Q. Okay. The same folks who had the
12 A. I'm sorry. Yes, I believe it was. 12 rest of the Chalmette area plan; right?
13 Q. Okay. Go to page 1, if you would. 13 A. All except for the Orleans Parish
14 A. All right. 14 portion.
15 Q. This page 1 and on to page 2 has the 15 Q. Except for the Orleans Parish
16 history of the project authorization; 16 portion.
17 correct? 17 (Whereupon a discussion was held
18 A. It appears to be, yes. 18 off the record.)
19 Q. Okay. Under item C-1-C on page 1, 19 EXAMINATION BY MR. O'DONNELL:
20 it says "By LMNED-PR letter". What is that? 20 Q. I think I established for the Reach
21 A. That's the office that prepared the 21 2 portion, the design grade level for the
22 letter in the New Orleans District. 22 extension was 17 and a half feet?
23 Q. Okay. Dated 29 November 1966, it 23 A. You did.
24 was recommended that the approved plan of 24 Q. Let's go to page 43.
25 hurricane protection for the Chalmette area 25 A. Okay.
Page 293 Page 295
1 contained in design memo number 3, general 1 Q. Actually, page 42, just to be

2 design, -- The Chalmette area plan was the one 2 clear. This is another one of those schedules
3 we just looked at; right? 3 for design and construction. This is for the
4 A. Yes. 4 Chalmette extension. You see that?
5 Q. That it be modified under the 5 A. Yes.
6 discretionary authority of the Chief of 6 Q. And if you go over to page 45.
7 Engineers to provide for the enlargement of 7 A. Okay.
8 the protected area by construction of a levee 8 Q. Number 20, "Levee, final shaping,
9 on the Mississippi River levee near Carnarvan, 9 station numbers, fertilizing and seeding",
10 Louisiana to the vicinity of Verret, 10 design starts in 1967 and projected for
11 Louisiana, thence to and along the Mississippi 11 completion ten years later, about in May, '77?
12 River Gulf Outlet spoil bank to a junction 12 A. Yes.
13 with the approved plan levee at the Bayou 13 Q. That was not achieved, was it?
14 Lawler crossing of the MRGO spoil bank, and 14 A. I don't know. I doubt it, but I
15 elimination of the levee in the approved plan 15 don't know.
16 for the Bayou Lawler and MRGO spoil bank 16 Q. If you go a few pages later after
17 junction to Violet. Do you see that? 17 page 50, we see the plate number 1, which is
18 A. Yes. 18 the general plan and vicinity.
19 Q. This recommendation was approved by 19 A. Okay.
20 OCE, Office of the Chief Engineer? 20 Q. You see that?
21 A. Yes. 21 A. Yes.
22 Q. On 31 January 1967, in second 22 Q. And then the next series of pages,
23 endorsement to the basic letter. And those 23 like what we saw on the design, general design
24 documents are included as -- on the site; 24 memo number 3, has segments of the area with
25 right? 25 the top down view and then the lateral or the
Page 294 Page 296
74 (Pages 293 to 296)

1 cross section view? 1 Q. Can you show me on -- We need a

2 A. Yes. 2 better map. Where is Florida Avenue?
3 Q. Okay. And that's similar 3 A. I would have to show you on a map.
4 information, but for this area; right? 4 Q. We have a map here somewhere.
5 A. That's correct. 5 Okay. Here is Number 12. Can you
6 Q. And then after that is undisturbed 6 show me on Number 12 where -- This Exhibit 21
7 boring test data? 7 deals with the IHNC Canal West Levee, Florida
8 A. Okay. 8 Avenue to the lock.
9 Q. Soil borings; right? 9 A. Uh-huh (affirmatively).
10 A. Well, it's in the document. I 10 Q. Is that -- Can you tell me where
11 assume so. 11 that is on there?
12 Q. It's plates 30, 31 and following. 12 A. I was looking for an aerial map on
13 And 29, et cetera. 13 this so I could better -- since I am not
14 A. Okay. 14 really familiar with this document.
15 Q. Okay. Were you in New Orleans 15 Q. Okay. That's okay. Let me do
16 during Katrina and afterwards? 16 this.
17 A. I was assigned to our Crisis Action 17 Well done. Let's look at Exhibit
18 Team in Vicksburg for about two and a half 18 21, see if we can find --
19 weeks during Katrina and then I came back. 19 A. There should be a map. I was hoping
20 Q. So you were not in New Orleans 20 to find it. It would make it easier.
21 personally observing any of the flooding? 21 Q. Yes. Would it be fair to say, if
22 A. No. 22 the IHNC lock is near the Mississippi River,
23 Q. Okay. Are you familiar with the 23 Florida Avenue is something above it, north of
24 statement by General Strock when he was the -- 24 it?
25 What's the top guy's name, title? 25 A. Yes, north of that.
Page 297 Page 299
1 A. Chief of Engineers. 1 Q. That's all I need to know. And this

2 Q. Chief of Engineers last year, in 2 being a -- Now, what is a general advanced
3 2006, that with regard to the levees along the 3 supplement?
4 outfall canals, that the Corps had experienced 4 A. I don't know.
5 for the first time in its history catastrophic 5 Q. Okay. It looks like a design
6 failure? Do you remember that statement? 6 document; correct?
7 A. Vaguely. 7 A. It appears to be.
8 Q. He never issued any such statement 8 Q. And this --
9 with regard to the levees along MRGO, did he? 9 A. It's another one of these documents
10 A. I don't know. 10 I have never seen before.
11 MR. O'DONNELL: 11 Q. This is a subsection of the LPV;
12 Let's mark this as the next. I'm 12 right?
13 told it's 21, Robin. 13 A. Yes.
14 MR. SMITH: 14 Q. Okay. It's actually a subsection of
15 That sounds right. 15 the general design memo that we saw earlier;
16 MR. O'DONNELL: 16 correct?
17 Here you go. 17 A. And keep in mind this is on the west
18 EXAMINATION BY MR. O'DONNELL: 18 bank of the IHNC, opposite the St. Bernard
19 Q. I have marked for you, sir, Exhibit 19 Parish. This is on the Orleans Parish side.
20 21, which is another Corps document for the 20 I want to make sure that you understand that
21 LPV. This is design memorandum number 2, 21 this is on the city side, not the St. Bernard
22 general advanced supplement for the IHNC West 22 side of the Industrial Canal.
23 Levee, Florida Avenue to IHNC lock. Do you 23 Q. I understand.
24 see that? 24 A. Okay.
25 A. Yes. 25 Q. It's on the west side.
Page 298 Page 300
75 (Pages 297 to 300)

1 A. That's correct. 1 again?

2 Q. Okay. And that's not an area of our 2 A. Well, at that time that notation
3 direct interest, so I am going to move on. 3 meant Lower Mississippi Valley, New Orleans
4 MR. O'DONNELL: 4 Engineering Division.
5 What is the next in order? 5 Q. Okay. And the subject is "Briefing
6 MR. ANDRY: 6 material for the Chief of Engineers, Lower
7 22. 7 Mississippi Valley Flood Control Association,"
8 MR. O'DONNELL: 8 date is 7 November '69. Do you see that?
9 Give that to Robin. 9 A. Yes.
10 EXAMINATION BY MR. O'DONNELL: 10 Q. What's a briefing sheet in the
11 Q. I have marked for you another 11 Corps?
12 document, a Corps document which has a 12 A. I don't know.
13 description on both -- it looks like a label, 13 Q. Okay. Page 2 is a transmittal of
14 but the second page says "Geotechnical 14 November 6, '69.
15 investigation, Chalmette area plan, Bayou 15 A. Okay.
16 Bienvenu to Bayou Dupre, station number, St. 16 Q. And page 3 is -- looks like it's a
17 Bernard Parish, Louisiana, June, 2001". Do 17 memorandum of some sort. Okay?
18 you see this, sir? 18 A. All right.
19 A. Uh-huh (affirmatively). 19 Q. What's the Lower Mississippi Valley
20 Q. What's a geotechnical investigation? 20 Flood Control Association?
21 A. I assume it has something to do with 21 A. Well, it's an association generally
22 the subsurface material. 22 composed of non-Federal interests in flood
23 Q. Do you know why such an 23 protection in the Lower Mississippi Valley,
24 investigation was undertaken in 2001? 24 usually from St. Louis south, all the various
25 A. Because we were trying to construct 25 states have different members, levee districts
Page 301 Page 303
1 an initial lift on that levee and I assume 1 and other people interested in local flood
2 they did a geotechnical investigation to 2 control.
3 determine the conditions of the subsurface 3 Q. Okay. This appears to be some
4 soils. 4 briefing paper for some meeting.
5 Q. You told me earlier they might have 5 A. Yes.
6 to do subsequent geotechnicals after the 6 Q. Okay. Let's go to the item 2,
7 limited? 7 "Problem". Do you see that?
8 A. Trying to implement that, yes. 8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Have you seen this document before? 9 Q. Would you read the first sentence of
10 A. I don't know. 10 number 2?
11 Q. And this geotechnical investigation 11 A. "Hurricane Betsy caused extensive
12 findings would be used by the Corps in 12 damage in the New Orleans area in 1965. The
13 designing and constructing the next lift or 13 repetition is feared by all concerned
14 enlargement? 14 including the Louisiana Congressional
15 A. That's correct. That's my 15 delegation. Heavy pressure has been exerted
16 understanding. 16 to expedite construction of protective works
17 Q. Okay. Great. 17 particularly for the Lake Pontchartrain
18 MR. O'DONNELL: 18 barrier and Seabrook lock."
19 Mark this as the next in order. 19 Q. Okay. Go to page 4, sir,
20 MR. ANDRY: 20 "Comment".
21 23. 21 A. All right.
22 EXAMINATION BY MR. O'DONNELL: 22 Q. Would you read the first sentence?
23 Q. I have marked for you, sir, Exhibit 23 A. "The engineering effort required to
24 23, which is a cover sheet called "Disposition 24 plan this project and other projects of the
25 form". The office is LMNED. What's that 25 continuing program plus the new starts for
Page 302 Page 304
76 (Pages 301 to 304)

1 this fiscal year far exceeds the present 1 have read about it.
2 in-house engineering capability of the 2 Q. Okay. Go to page little "i" if you
3 District." 3 will, called "Digest".
4 Q. Okay. When you were responsible as 4 A. Uh-huh (affirmatively).
5 Senior Project Manager for the LPV, were there 5 Q. The fourth paragraph, could you read
6 also continuing in-house engineering 6 that for us?
7 capability shortages? 7 A. The fourth paragraph?
8 A. No. We'd hire engineering -- 8 Q. Yes.
9 outside engineering firms as a matter of 9 A. "The Corps of Engineers schedule
10 course. Our problem is mainly finding funds 10 completion date has been delayed from 1970 to
11 to keep the people we have on board employed. 11 1991, while many of the factors are outside
12 Q. The contractors, you mean? 12 the control of the Corps of Engineers' own
13 A. Corps employees. 13 belated completion design plans and
14 Q. Corps employees. Were there periods 14 specification has contributed to the delays.
15 of time when you had to cut your Corps 15 See page 16."
16 employee staff who were working on the LPV? 16 Q. Would you go to the little double
17 A. They sometimes -- Every project was 17 "ii" and read the last paragraph beginning
18 having problems, but they would work on 18 "However"?
19 projects that had funding and they would 19 A. "However, some local groups oppose
20 shuffle around. We didn't have to cut 20 construction of the key elements of the
21 people. They didn't lose their jobs. 21 project such as the barrier complexes in the
22 Q. Okay. 22 Rigolets and the Chef Menteur. If local
23 MR. O'DONNELL: 23 support is not obtained, construction of key
24 Let's mark the next in order. 24 project elements may not be completed and
25 Thank you. What number are we here? 25 hurricane-induced surges and waves may not be
Page 305 Page 307
1 MR. ANDRY: 1 prevented from entering Lake Pontchartrain.

2 24. 2 See page 20."
3 EXAMINATION BY MR. O'DONNELL: 3 Q. Page 1, "Threat to New Orleans", do
4 Q. I have marked for you Exhibit 24, 4 you see that?
5 which is a report to the Congress by the 5 A. Yes.
6 Comptroller General of the United States, 6 Q. The second -- Would you read the
7 dated August 31, 1976. Its title is "Cost 7 second paragraph. It's one sentence.
8 schedule and performance problems with Lake 8 A. "The greatest natural threat to the
9 Pontchartrain and Vicinity Louisiana Hurricane 9 New Orleans area is flooding from
10 Protection Project, Corps of Engineers, Civil 10 hurricane-induced sea surges, waves, and
11 Functions, Department of the Army". Do you 11 rainfall."
12 see that? 12 Q. With the delays that attended the
13 A. Yes. 13 Lake Pontchartrain and Vicinity Hurricane
14 Q. And then there's a notation on the 14 Protection Plan implementation and the concern
15 cover, "The cost of the Louisiana -- Lake 15 that the Corps had about the level of
16 Pontchartrain and Vicinity Louisiana Hurricane 16 protection, when Katrina hit New Orleans with
17 Project has quadrupled since 1965 primarily 17 22 feet of water and the levees were not --
18 because of inflation. Scheduled completion 18 the levees along Reach 1 and Reach 2 had not
19 has been delayed 13 years. In addition, 19 been completed, it really was not the Corps'
20 project objectives may not be obtained if key 20 fault, was it?
21 elements are not completed as planned." Do 21 A. Oh, I wouldn't say it was the Corps'
22 you see that? 22 fault, no. I mean, you know, an event
23 A. Yes. 23 occurred that was greater than what the
24 Q. You have seen this document before? 24 project was intended to provide protection
25 A. I have seen excerpts from it and I 25 against.
Page 306 Page 308
77 (Pages 305 to 308)

1 Q. And even if you completed it on 1 level by 2006. Our goal is to provide the 100
2 time, at the original cost estimate, and you 2 year level of protection by 2011.
3 did it consistently at design grade level 3 Q. All right. Forgive me. The Corps
4 throughout the entire loop, it still wouldn't 4 has now stated that it hopes to be able to
5 have prevented this catastrophe? 5 build additional flood protection works around
6 A. I think that would be still a great, 6 greater New Orleans to reach the level of
7 great deal of damage and would have been a 7 protection of the 100 year flood by 2011?
8 catastrophe probably as a result. 8 A. That's correct.
9 Q. Not just occasional flooding? 9 Q. Is the Corps on schedule to do that?
10 A. Not just occasional flooding. It 10 A. I believe we are. There's a lot of
11 would have been serious. Very serious. 11 work left to be done and there's still more
12 Q. Do you think the Corps is learning 12 money needed to be appropriated.
13 lessons from Katrina? 13 Q. To pass this prologue on, we need to
14 A. Well, I think, yeah, I think 14 be concerned about delays in funding; right?
15 everybody learns lessons. 15 A. I don't know. I think there's a
16 Q. What are the principal lessons? 16 certain commitment at very high levels to
17 A. Oh, well, there's a lot of lessons 17 provide those funds, so I am not going to
18 that are in the design arena, that I, you 18 presume that those funds won't be provided.
19 know, would defer to a engineer. Part of the 19 Q. To date have those funds been
20 problem I think you have is trying to meld 20 provided?
21 social and political requirements with 21 A. About half of them.
22 engineering details and designs and trying to 22 Q. The other half remains to be funded?
23 interface that to make it a viable long-term 23 A. I think the goal is to fund them
24 project. You have local sponsorship issues 24 sometime during the fiscal year 2009 budget.
25 that require attention that may delay. You 25 Q. Okay.
Page 309 Page 311
1 have legal issues, you have environmental 1 A. I don't think there's any rush to do
2 issues. You have individuals who have their 2 it, because we really don't need the money at
3 own thoughts on how things should be done. 3 this point. We have money that we can use to
4 And all of these things have to be handled. 4 award contracts across it.
5 And I think a lesson learned is that, I don't 5 Q. The Corps issued some maps of
6 care where your project is, whether it's in 6 projected flooding. Are you familiar with
7 California, New York, or New Orleans, you're 7 those maps?
8 going to face these problems. And none of 8 A. The risk and reliability maps?
9 these solutions are learned in school. These 9 Q. Yes, risk and reliability maps.
10 are political and social issues that demand 10 A. Yes.
11 political and social solutions that are well 11 Q. What do they seek to portray?
12 beyond the scope of what an engineer is 12 A. They seek to portray residual risk
13 capable of doing. 13 based on certain levels of flood protection.
14 Q. And it would be an even greater 14 So that if, for example, if a 100 year level
15 tragedy if the lessons that the Corps has 15 of protection is provided and that type of
16 learned from Katrina were not reflected in the 16 storm occurs, then the residual risk for most
17 ability to protect greater New Orleans to the 17 of the metropolitan area should be minimum.
18 degree the Corps now wants to. Wouldn't that 18 But if you had a 500 year event and you had
19 be fair to say? 19 only a 100 year level of protection, then it
20 A. Yeah. 20 would show a certain degree of flooding. And
21 Q. The Corps has estimated that it can 21 those maps are intended to portray residual
22 restore the New Orleans hurricane protection 22 risks so people can make decisions on where
23 system to the pre-Katrina level by 2011, I 23 they choose to live.
24 believe. Is that -- 24 Q. Can you translate the 100 year flood
25 A. No. We've restored to pre-Katrina 25 -- hurricane protection level with a Category
Page 310 Page 312
78 (Pages 309 to 312)

1 3, 4, 5? 1 works, does it not?

2 A. No, I can't. 2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Okay. Do you know what wind speed 3 Q. Okay. That has been your experience
4 is assumed for the 100 year flood? 4 as well?
5 A. We don't use wind speed in using 5 A. Yes.
6 that. It's strictly a hydrologic surge that 6 (Whereupon a discussion was held
7 they're looking at, I believe. And again, I 7 off the record.)
8 am not the expert on that. 8 EXAMINATION BY MR. O'DONNELL:
9 Q. What level of hydrologic surge is 9 Q. Do you know what a capital P,
10 assumed for the 100 year hurricane flood? 10 capital I, capital R report is?
11 A. It varies. And Nancy can best 11 A. What's that? P I --
12 address this. But they use -- use 152 12 Q. PIR report?
13 separate storms with varying intensities and 13 A. Yeah, uh-huh.
14 paths to come up with elevations at individual 14 Q. What is that?
15 discrete locations. So that if you have a 15 A. Well, my -- my experience, they were
16 location, say, on the lakefront of Jefferson 16 done post-Katrina to describe work that we
17 Parish, you would have a certain level of 17 were doing to repair the levee system.
18 protection for a 100 year event as opposed to 18 Q. What does PIR stand for?
19 what would it be in St. Bernard Parish. And 19 A. Project information report.
20 so it's a very complex modeling effort that 20 Q. And was this the internal Corps
21 the modelers can best explain. This is the 21 assessment after Hurricane Katrina about what
22 way I understand it to be done. 22 happened?
23 Q. Okay. Thank you. 23 A. I believe -- No, it was a
24 MR. O'DONNELL: 24 description of the work that we were going to
25 Let's mark this as the next one. 25 do to repair the system.
Page 313 Page 315
1 Thank you. 1 Q. Is that a public document?

2 MR. ANDRY: 2 A. I don't know.
3 25. 3 Q. Okay.
4 MR. O'DONNELL: 4 A. I mean, I didn't prepare it so, I
5 Thank you. 25? 5 mean, those reports were prepared by Task
6 Robin, would you like to take a 6 Force Guardian.
7 break? 7 Q. Typically when the Corps does soil
8 MR. SMITH: 8 sampling along a stretch, say a reach of the
9 I'm fine. 9 MRGO, is it about every 500 to 1,000 feet that
10 EXAMINATION BY MR. O'DONNELL: 10 they sample soil?
11 Q. Sir, I have marked for you a 11 A. I don't know.
12 document numbered 25. It's a letter from the 12 Q. Before Katrina were you aware of any
13 Fish and Wildlife Service of the Department of 13 under-seepage for any of the levees along
14 -- U.S. Department of Interior to the 14 Reach 1 or Reach 2 of the MRGO?
15 Director Secretary Jack A. Stephens of the St. 15 A. No.
16 Bernard Parish Planning Commission. Its date 16 Q. Is that something you were looking
17 is May 31, 1979. It's fair to say you 17 for or the Corps looks for?
18 probably have never seen this document before; 18 A. Well, I think we -- generally, when
19 right, sir? 19 our sponsors patrol the levees regularly, if
20 A. No. Correct. 20 they spot something, they would let us know,
21 Q. Under the Federal scheme of things 21 but I had no reports of it.
22 when the Corps is doing a project like it did 22 Q. How about any evidence of erosion of
23 in New Orleans for the hurricane protection 23 the levees prior to Katrina?
24 LPV, the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service 24 A. None that I was aware of.
25 periodically provides comments on proposed 25 Q. Does the Corps inspect its levees
Page 314 Page 316
79 (Pages 313 to 316)

1 regularly? 1 MR. O'DONNELL:

2 A. They're not our levees that we own. 2 Let's mark this as the next.
3 We expect the local sponsors of the levees. 3 MR. ANDRY:
4 Q. Well, in this case there had not 4 27 -- 26. Excuse me.
5 been a turn-over, you said, but in terms of 5 EXAMINATION BY MR. O'DONNELL:
6 just up to Katrina, did the Corps have any 6 Q. Okay. I have marked for you a Corps
7 periodic inspection program of the levees? 7 document from February, 1988, called
8 A. Yes. Yes. 8 "Mississippi River Gulf Outlet, St. Bernard
9 Q. How often? 9 Parish Louisiana, bank erosion reconnaissance
10 A. Generally an inspection annually. 10 report".
11 Q. Okay. Is that an area of your 11 A. All right.
12 responsibility, ever? 12 Q. You have seen this before, have you
13 A. No. 13 not, sir?
14 Q. Whose responsibility was it up to 14 A. I probably have. I don't really --
15 Katrina; what division or branch? 15 I didn't deal with it very much.
16 A. Well, generally our Operations 16 Q. Okay. What is a reconnaissance --
17 Division handles the periodic inspection 17 You mentioned this term before. What's a
18 program. 18 reconnaissance report?
19 Q. Did you have anything to do with the 19 A. That's a report that we prepare as
20 -- along the Industrial Canal, the lock 20 an initial look-see at a potential project to
21 replacement project? 21 see if there's a Federal interest in pursuing
22 A. No, I did not. 22 further work.
23 Q. Are you familiar with it? 23 Q. Okay. And if there's a conclusion
24 A. I am familiar with it. 24 there's a Federal interest, what happens next?
25 Q. But you had no involvement? 25 A. Then we move to some type of
Page 317 Page 319
1 A. I never really worked on it, no. 1 feasibility study.

2 Q. Okay. You mentioned that there's a 2 Q. Do you know whether after this
3 Corps office here in New Orleans that focuses 3 reconnaissance report on bank erosion for the
4 on restoration of wetlands? Or somebody 4 MRGO there was a feasibility study done?
5 does? 5 A. I honestly don't know.
6 A. I don't think I mentioned that, but 6 Q. Does this document appear to be
7 I think we do, within the Corps District we 7 prepared in-house at the Corps?
8 have people that are looking strictly at 8 A. I don't know. It might have been.
9 wetlands restoration, yes. 9 Q. If a contractor prepared it, would
10 Q. There are people in the New Orleans 10 they usually be indicated on the document?
11 District? 11 A. Usually, yeah.
12 A. Yes. 12 Q. Okay. Let's go to the document.
13 Q. Okay. And is one of the areas of 13 About ten pages or so in, there's a section
14 focus the wetlands adjacent to the Reach 2 of 14 called "Syllabus". Do you see that?
15 the MRGO? 15 A. Yes.
16 A. I know that area has been 16 Q. The handwriting in the margin was
17 discussed. I don't know the details of what 17 not on the original anywhere here. So what's
18 they're looking at, though. 18 a syllabus in a report like this?
19 Q. Are there any active wetlands 19 A. Again, the definition escapes me.
20 restoration projects currently underway in the 20 I've never prepared anything with a syllabus
21 area between Bayou Dupre and Bayou Bienvenu, 21 in it.
22 the -- 22 Q. Is this a summary?
23 A. I don't know of any, but again, I am 23 A. I assume that's like an executive
24 not the expert on that. 24 summary. I'm guessing, but I don't know for
25 Q. Okay. 25 certain.
Page 318 Page 320
80 (Pages 317 to 320)

1 Q. Okay. You don't need you to guess. 1 New Orleans District, is there, or was there
2 When you were dealing with the 2 when you were working on the LPV, a
3 MRGO, were you dealing at all with the issue 3 differentiation between the MRGO and the LPV?
4 of the progressive bank erosion? 4 A. Oh, yes.
5 A. I've never dealt with the MRGO. 5 Q. Okay. And why is that?
6 Q. Well, when you were building -- When 6 A. Well, the MRGO was in operation and
7 you were the project manager for the levees -- 7 maintenance phase, appropriations. We were in
8 A. Yes. 8 the construction appropriations and, as such,
9 Q. -- was bank erosion a concern? 9 they were handled and operated separately.
10 A. No. 10 Q. Okay.
11 Q. Okay. And why is that? 11 A. By different people.
12 A. Because the banks had rock along the 12 Q. Different people. Your funding for
13 shore line at those locations. 13 the LPV came from a separate Congressional
14 Q. Okay. You're aware since the MRGO 14 appropriation from whatever ongoing operation
15 was completed in 1968 there had been 15 and maintenance dredging appropriations for
16 significant widening of the channel due to 16 the MRGO?
17 bank erosion? 17 A. No. Lake Pontchartrain and Vicinity
18 A. Yes. 18 funding comes from the Construction General
19 Q. Was that a concern of the Corps? 19 Account.
20 A. I think it was generally a concern, 20 Q. Okay.
21 yes. 21 A. MRGO comes from the O and M and
22 Q. At the bottom of the first page of 22 general appropriations. It was separate
23 the syllabus, it says, quote, "Continued 23 appropriations.
24 erosion threatens to produce large breaches in 24 Q. Got you. Page 8, please. Under the
25 the rapidly dwindling marsh buffer between the 25 section underlined "Water resources", there's
Page 321 Page 323
1 navigation channel and the other waters of 1 a second heading called "Surface water". Do
2 Lake Borgne and Breton Sound." 2 you see that?
3 A. Yes. 3 A. Yes.
4 Q. And then it says "Once the buffering 4 Q. And it says "Major surface waters in
5 margins --" Excuse me, "Buffering --" 5 the study area include the MRGO, the GIWW, the
6 Again. "Once the buffering margins are lost, 6 IHNC, the Mississippi River, Lakes
7 dredging frequency and quantity in the 7 Pontchartrain and Borgne, Chandelier and
8 vicinity of the breached bank area will 8 Breton Sounds." Right?
9 increase significantly." Why is that? 9 A. Okay.
10 A. Well, it's my understanding is when 10 Q. And Chandelier and Breton Sounds are
11 that happens, it causes sediments to be driven 11 down in the Gulf; right?
12 into the deeper channel from Lake Borgne and 12 A. Close to the Gulf, yes.
13 that would cause increased dredging 13 Q. Close to the Gulf. And then it says
14 requirements. 14 "All of these waters bodies are connected
15 Q. Right. Thank you. Then it says 15 hydraulically." Right?
16 "The navigation channel will be exposed to 16 A. Okay.
17 storms, currents, and less attenuated tidal 17 Q. Okay. What does that mean, to be
18 action from the north and northeast." Do you 18 connected hydraulically?
19 see that? 19 A. I am not sure what they mean there.
20 A. Yes. 20 There's probably some indication that if a
21 Q. And there's less attenuated tidal 21 hydrological event occurs in one, it affects
22 action because there's no buffering effect of 22 the other. I think in this case I'd have to
23 the marshes? 23 caution one about the Mississippi River since
24 A. I believe so, yes. 24 the lock -- the only connection, hydrologic,
25 Q. Okay. Inside the Army Corps, the 25 direct hydrologic connection would be down
Page 322 Page 324
81 (Pages 321 to 324)

1 near the mouth of the river. 1 A. Yes.

2 Q. But the MRGO, GIWW, and IHNC have a 2 Q. And the north bank would be the side
3 hydrologic connection? 3 closer to Lake Borgne?
4 A. Yes. There's no impediments to flow 4 A. Yes.
5 if you want -- That's the way I think it's 5 Q. Okay. Then it says "Because erosion
6 intended to read. 6 is steadily widening the MRGO, the east bank
7 Q. Right. Page 10. Again, this is a 7 along Lake Borgne is dangerously close to
8 1988 document. It says under "Land 8 being breached."
9 resources", "Most of the Mississippi River 9 A. Yes.
10 Gulf Outlet is experiencing severe erosion 10 Q. And that's that tiny little strip of
11 along its unleveed banks." Do you see that? 11 land there?
12 A. Yes. 12 A. Yes.
13 Q. "The erosion is a result of both 13 Q. Okay. "Once the bank is breached,
14 man-induced and natural forces, including 14 the following will happen. Sediment from Lake
15 combinations of channelization, ship- and 15 Borgne will flow into the channel, resulting
16 wind-generated waves, storm activity, and 16 in large increases in dredging cost to
17 subsidence." 17 maintain the channel; development to the
18 A. Okay. 18 southwest would be exposed to direct hurricane
19 Q. Up to the time of Katrina, the Corps 19 attacks from Lake Borgne," et cetera. Do you
20 never actually implemented any measures to 20 see that?
21 retard or lessen bank erosion. Is that 21 A. Yes.
22 correct? 22 Q. And the marsh would also be exposed
23 A. Oh, I disagree. I think there were 23 to higher salinity water?
24 rock diked -- rock structures constructed 24 A. Yes.
25 along some of the banks. I couldn't tell you 25 Q. Did that breach occur before
Page 325 Page 327
1 where. You would have to talk to the 1 Katrina?

2 operation managers. But I am aware that rock 2 A. I think that's one of the areas that
3 was placed on certain locations of high 3 they tried to address with some type of rock
4 erosion. 4 closure. And again, I am not familiar with
5 Q. Okay. Do you know where they were? 5 that work, but I think it was tried -- they
6 A. No. 6 tried to address that.
7 Q. Okay. Was that consistently done 7 Q. Okay. Thank you. Page 27 in the
8 along all of Reach 2 between Bienvenu and 8 middle of the page is a statistic. The
9 Violet? 9 sentence is -- It's a paragraph that begins
10 A. Be careful, because they're saying 10 "The most easily quantified"?
11 severe erosion along its unleveed banks. So 11 A. Uh-huh (affirmatively).
12 the severe erosion referred here was not 12 Q. Do you see that?
13 adjacent to the levee. It was on the opposite 13 A. Yes.
14 bank of MRGO. 14 Q. And then a couple of sentences down,
15 Q. The north side? 15 it says "Erosion of the channel banks,"
16 A. Yes. 16 referring to MRGO, "Erosion of the channel
17 Q. Okay. Great. 17 banks has caused an average loss of 211 acres
18 A. And that's what the main concern was 18 of marsh per year during the 20 year period
19 I think at that time. 19 between 1968 and 196- --" I'm sorry, "1968
20 Q. Okay. Then the next paragraph says 20 and 1987." Do you see that?
21 "The marshes along the north bank of the MRGO 21 A. Yes.
22 have been especially hard hit by these forces 22 Q. Do you know what the basis for that
23 and are disappearing at an alarming rate." 23 calculation was?
24 A. Uh-huh (affirmatively). 24 A. No.
25 Q. Do you see that? 25 Q. Okay. Presumably the Corps went out
Page 326 Page 328
82 (Pages 325 to 328)

1 and measured it? 1 MRGO into the bayou?

2 A. I don't know. 2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Then the next sentence says "Most of 3 Q. Okay.
4 the lost acreage is in the marsh/estuarine 4 MR. O'DONNELL:
5 area along the northeast bank." Do you see 5 Let's mark this as the next one.
6 that? 6 MR. ANDRY:
7 A. Yes. 7 That's going to be 27.
8 Q. What's a es- -- I'm pronouncing it. 8 MR. O'DONNELL:
9 You pronounce it for me. 9 Exhibit 27?
10 A. Estuarine. Estuarine area. 10 MR. ANDRY:
11 Q. What's a marsh/estuarine area? 11 That is correct.
12 A. Well, now you're talking biology 12 EXAMINATION BY MR. O'DONNELL:
13 here. It's just an ecosystem, a hydrologic 13 Q. Exhibit 27 is another Corps
14 ecosystem and -- 14 document. It's called "Geological
15 Q. Can you show me on that big map 15 investigation of the Mississippi River Gulf
16 there? 16 Outlet Channel, Miscellaneous Paper number
17 A. Believe me, if you want me to define 17 3-259, dated February, 1958." I take it you
18 an estuary, I'm not going to be able to do 18 have never seen this before, have you?
19 that. 19 A. No, I haven't.
20 Q. It says the northeast bank, so 20 Q. What's a geological investigation?
21 that's -- 21 A. I assume it's some type of
22 A. Well, I assume that that's, again, 22 investigation of what the underground geology
23 opposite, the bank opposite where the levee is 23 looks like.
24 on the Lake Borgne side. 24 Q. Okay. And why is that important for
25 Q. On the upper Reach 2? 25 the Corps to know that before they construct a
Page 329 Page 331
1 A. Yes. 1 ship channel?

2 Q. Okay. Thank you. We have referred 2 A. Just so that -- I assume it's so the
3 to this a couple of times, the navigation 3 designers will have an idea of what they're
4 structures at Bayou Bienvenu and at Bayou 4 confronted with before they start digging.
5 Dupre. 5 Q. Because before they dig, they have
6 A. Yes. 6 just got land or marsh; right?
7 Q. Take Bayou Bienvenu. What is the 7 A. Yeah.
8 navigation structure there? 8 Q. And they're going to go down, what
9 A. Well, it's an scepter gate that 9 is it, how many feet?
10 closes when there's a high tide, a storm surge 10 A. Well, they need to know what's out
11 to keep the water out of the protected area. 11 there so that they know what they're facing
12 Q. If we look at Exhibit 5 here, -- 12 when they try and dig it out.
13 A. Uh-huh (affirmatively). 13 Q. And also tell them something about
14 Q. -- we see that there is some kind of 14 what the borrow material will be; correct?
15 a body of water extending from the control 15 A. In this case they did not need
16 structure inland. Correct? 16 borrow.
17 A. That's Bayou Bienvenu. 17 Q. Okay. Because they weren't building
18 Q. And that's a natural bayou? 18 levees?
19 A. Yes. 19 A. That's correct.
20 Q. And this blue area, the larger blue 20 Q. There were no levees as part of the
21 area here on Exhibit 5? 21 original MRGO; correct?
22 A. That's just a wetland type of lake 22 A. That's correct.
23 area. 23 Q. So the time of Hurricane Betsy in
24 Q. Okay. Fine. And so the structure 24 1965, the MRGO was a navigation channel, but
25 allows boat traffic to come in and out of the 25 had no flood control features?
Page 330 Page 332
83 (Pages 329 to 332)

1 A. That's correct. 1 A. Uh-huh (affirmatively).

2 MR. O'DONNELL: 2 Q. -- that have to be put in with --
3 Let's mark this one next. 3 A. That's correct.
4 MR. ANDRY: 4 Q. -- large equipment; right?
5 28. 5 A. Yes, sir.
6 EXAMINATION BY MR. O'DONNELL: 6 Q. What's derrick stone?
7 Q. This one is Number 28. Exhibit 28 7 A. I'm not sure.
8 is hard to read, but it's an Army Corps 8 Q. Okay. And then it says "Shell,
9 document. It's for the LPV. It's design 9 clamshells"; right?
10 memorandum number 12, I think. Yes. 12. 10 A. Uh-huh (affirmatively).
11 A. Yes. 11 Q. Were clamshells used in the
12 Q. Dated 30 August -- Well, it's dated 12 construction of any of the MRGO levees?
13 June, 1966 and it's for sources of 13 A. Not to my knowledge. I think that
14 construction materials. 14 clamshells are probably used for surfacing of
15 A. Yes. 15 roadways and things like that.
16 Q. You see that? 16 Q. That's that little white pulverized
17 A. I see that. 17 pieces of material?
18 Q. Have you ever seen this before? 18 A. Yes.
19 A. No. 19 (Wherupon a discussion was held
20 Q. Is it important when you're building 20 off the record.)
21 the levees along Reach 1 and Reach 2 to know 21 EXAMINATION BY MR. O'DONNELL:
22 where you're going to get your construction 22 Q. Pages 5 and 6 -- I'm sorry, page 5
23 materials? 23 gives us an estimate of the quantities of
24 A. Well, you have to have an idea so 24 material requirements. Do you see this?
25 you can make your proper cost estimates. 25 A. Yes.
Page 333 Page 335
1 Q. It's coming from a spoil bank area 1 Q. Is this for one section or for the
2 adjacent, it's one cost; if it's being hauled 2 whole LPV? Do you know?
3 from Alabama, it's another cost; right? 3 A. I don't know.
4 A. Exactly. 4 Q. Let's go back and look. It doesn't
5 Q. And if your materials are highly 5 really say, does it?
6 liquid, the cost of drying, et cetera, is 6 A. Well, they describe the whole
7 another factor you take into account; right? 7 project, but again, I am not sure if this
8 A. I would think so. 8 particular section refers to the whole project
9 Q. Page 2 indicates investigations that 9 or not.
10 were made. Do you see that? 10 Q. On page 5 for hydraulic pumped
11 A. Okay. 11 material they're estimating 18.795 million
12 Q. Sub A under 5, "Sources", has "Fine 12 cubic yards; right?
13 and coarse aggregate". Do you see that? 13 A. Uh-huh (affirmatively). Yes.
14 A. Yes. 14 Q. Is that a lot of material?
15 Q. Is that -- what is fine and coarse 15 A. Yeah, that's a pretty good quantity.
16 aggregate? 16 Q. Okay.
17 A. Well, aggregate is generally sand 17 (Whereupon a discussion was held
18 and gravel they use in making concrete. 18 off the record.)
19 Q. Okay. Great. Then the next, B, is 19 EXAMINATION BY MR. O'DONNELL:
20 "Rip-rap and derrick stone". 20 Q. Now, when the MRGO was completed
21 A. Uh-huh (affirmatively). 21 around 19- -- I think in 1968, we saw some
22 Q. Do you see that? 22 documentation that there was an elevation
23 A. Yeah. 23 above the water level of, what, about five
24 Q. Rip-rap, you told me, are large 24 feet or -- Do you remember what it was?
25 rocks -- 25 A. I don't -- I'm not sure what you're
Page 334 Page 336
84 (Pages 333 to 336)

1 referring to. 1 levee at that point, is it?

2 Q. When the MRGO was built, the 2 A. That's correct.
3 hydraulic fill that was dredged out of there 3 Q. So just that pile of dirt in and of
4 was -- 4 itself would not be a flood protection levee?
5 A. Oh. 5 A. That's right.
6 Q. -- put into a spoil bank area; 6 Q. And certainly not one mandated by
7 right? 7 Congress in the LPV HPP; correct?
9 Q. Do you know what the height of that 9 Q. Okay.
10 spoil bank area was? 10 MR. O'DONNELL:
11 A. No. 11 I am just going to wait for Lexie
12 Q. Fair to say it wasn't 17 and a half 12 to come in for a minute. Okay?
13 feet? 13 MR. SMITH:
14 A. Oh, no. 14 Sure.
15 Q. Do you have any idea approximately? 15 (Whereupon a discussion was held
16 A. (Witness shakes head negatively.) 16 off the record.)
17 Q. How would I find that out? 17 MR. O'DONNELL:
18 MR. SMITH: 18 Let's just mark this.
19 You have to speak up a little bit. 19 EXAMINATION BY MR. O'DONNELL:
20 MR. O'DONNELL: 20 Q. We're going to go through a few
21 I'm sorry. I'm getting tired. 21 more.
22 THE WITNESS: 22 A. Okay.
23 I don't know. I mean, it would 23 MR. O'DONNELL:
24 be something that perhaps might be in 24 The next number, Mr. Andry?
25 the old records, but I -- 25 What's our next number?
Page 337 Page 339
1 EXAMINATION BY MR. O'DONNELL: 1 MR. ANDRY:

2 Q. Okay. I want you to assume -- We 2 The next number is 29.
3 saw a number here. I don't remember. Was it 3 EXAMINATION BY MR. O'DONNELL:
4 five feet? 4 Q. Sir, I have marked for you Exhibit
5 MR. SMITH: 5 29. It's a letter from Robert L. Tisdale, T I
6 I think it was eight. 6 S D A L E, Deputy District Engineer for
7 EXAMINATION BY MR. O'DONNELL: 7 Project Management of the Army Corps of
8 Q. Eight feet. 8 Engineers, and it's to Glenn Bergeron, B E R G
9 A. I think Walter talked about that, 9 E R O N, or Bergeron, --
10 and he might be the one to talk to. 10 A. Yes.
11 MR. SMITH: 11 MR. ANDRY:
12 It was in one of the documents. 12 Bergeron.
13 It was in one of the exhibits. 13 MR. O'DONNELL:
14 EXAMINATION BY MR. O'DONNELL: 14 Bergeron. Rigolets.
15 Q. Let's assume it was eight feet. 15 MR. PATRICK:
16 Okay? There was an elevation above the water 16 You'll get there.
17 level -- 17 EXAMINATION BY MR. O'DONNELL:
18 A. Yes. 18 Q. President of the Board of
19 Q. -- because of the spoil bank on the 19 Commissioners of the East Jefferson Levee
20 south side of Reach 2; right? 20 District, dated March 2, 1999. You see this?
21 A. That's correct. 21 A. Correct.
22 Q. At that point it's a pile of spoil 22 Q. I assume you have not seen this
23 bank material; right? 23 before?
24 A. Yes. 24 A. I have.
25 Q. It's not functioning as a flood 25 Q. Oh. Why should I assume anything?
Page 338 Page 340
85 (Pages 337 to 340)

1 And who is Bob Tisdale or Robert Tisdale? 1 A. Yes.

2 A. Robert Tisdale used to be the Deputy 2 Q. I don't think we saw this one, but
3 District Engineer for Project Management 3 "In accordance to with the acts of assurance
4 directly working under the Colonel at that 4 furnished prior to commencement of work, East
5 time. 5 Jefferson Levee District becomes responsible
6 Q. Are you any of the symbols copied on 6 for the operation and maintenance of the
7 this? Acronyms, letters? 7 completed features of the Lake Pontchartrain
8 A. No. 8 and Vicinity Hurricane Protection Project in
9 Q. Okay. 9 Jefferson Parish." Do you see that?
10 A. But -- Well, it was -- Well, let me 10 A. Yes.
11 see. Chief of -- PPMD is Robert Tisdale and 11 Q. Et cetera. Okay. So this is -- Is
12 he would just have bumped it on down to me. 12 this a pretty typical format of the
13 Q. Right. He sent this letter to the 13 notification that --
14 President of the East Jefferson Levee 14 A. Yes, I would say so.
15 District, and we talked earlier today about a 15 Q. -- that your off- -- you guys are
16 notice of completion; that when the U.S. Army 16 operating and maintaining the --
17 Corps of Engineers finishes a portion of a 17 A. That's correct.
18 flood work project under the LPV, they notify 18 Q. -- completed turn-over?
19 the local interest of that and say, "Okay, now 19 A. It turns it back over to them after
20 you take over operation and maintenance". 20 construction.
21 A. That's correct. 21 Q. Turns it back over to them. Okay.
22 Q. Isn't it fair to say that's what 22 Let me just do one more here just
23 this letter is? 23 so we got it kind of --
25 Q. And the area described, just so 25 Mark this as the next in order.
Page 341 Page 343
1 we're clear, is lakefront levee, second lift, 1 MR. ANDRY:

2 and lakeside run-off control, Reach 3, between 2 30.
3 certain specified baselines in Jefferson 3 EXAMINATION BY MR. O'DONNELL:
4 Parish. Right? 4 Q. I'm sorry, did I give you two or
5 A. Yes. That's correct. 5 one?
6 Q. And it says that the work for this 6 A. One.
7 specific area, quote, "has been completed by 7 Q. I'm sorry. I put before you as
8 the United States under Public Law 298, 89th 8 Exhibit 30, sir, a letter from John P. --
9 Congress, approved October 27, 1965." Do you 9 A. Saia.
10 see that? 10 Q. -- Saia, Deputy District Engineer
11 A. Yes. 11 for Project Management, dated December 17,
12 Q. That's the Flood Control Act of 1965 12 2001, to Stevan Spencer, S T E V A N, Spencer,
13 that you and I have been talking about today; 13 Chief Engineer of the Orleans Levee District.
14 right? 14 And this is another one of those notices of
15 A. Correct. 15 turn-over, sir?
16 Q. And then it says "A final inspection 16 A. Yes, it is.
17 was conducted on February 3, 1999"? Right? 17 Q. This happens to deal with the LPV
18 A. Yes. Uh-huh (affirmatively.) 18 High Level Plan, Orleans Avenue Outfall Canal,
19 Q. And he is certifying that the work 19 Phase 1-B, Orleans Parish, Louisiana, Robert
20 was satisfactorily completed and then there's 20 E. Lee Bridge, and a notice that it's been
21 some "et ceteras". And then -- but then he 21 completed under the Flood Control Act of
22 says in the final paragraph "In accordance 22 1965. Right?
23 with the acts of assurances furnished prior to 23 A. Correct.
24 the commencement of work," and we saw a 24 Q. Now, this is a portion of the
25 typical -- several of them, didn't we? 25 Orleans Avenue Outfall Canal?
Page 342 Page 344
86 (Pages 341 to 344)

1 A. Yes, it is. 1 A. That's correct.

2 Q. Okay. And a similar indication that 2 Q. Do you have a general sense that St.
3 a final inspection was conducted and the 3 Bernard Parish is economically not in good
4 contract was accepted as substantially 4 shape right now?
5 complete, and "Now it's your responsibility to 5 A. Oh, I think you're exactly correct.
6 operate and maintain". Correct? 6 Q. So are you aware of any commitment
7 A. That is correct. 7 by the State of Louisiana to undertake the
8 Q. Okay. And some day when other 8 share of cost that St. Bernard Parish cannot
9 portions of the LPV are in fact completed, 9 afford, to get enhanced protection?
10 similar notices will be given to the local 10 A. Well I think the quantity of funds
11 districts; correct? 11 involved here is going to require
12 A. As they complete it, yes. 12 participation by the State of Louisiana. I
13 Q. Yes. Under the current -- Under the 13 don't think any of the local entities are in a
14 current work that the Corps is doing, starting 14 position to fund a high level of cost at this
15 out as Task Force Guardian and continuing 15 point.
16 under other auspices of the Corps, is the same 16 Q. Well, what efforts, if any, are
17 70/30 cost sharing operative? 17 underway within the state of Louisiana to make
18 A. Right now it's -- the work we're 18 that commitment?
19 doing is 100 percent Federal, but Congress has 19 A. Well, there's discussions going on
20 mandated a certain level of cost sharing for 20 between Governor Blanco and Governor Jindal
21 the 100 year protection and it means the State 21 and the Congress and how they're going to do
22 or the local sponsors, the Levee Districts, 22 that, and how that shakes out I really don't
23 will have to come up with a significant amount 23 know. I mean, they are -- they're aware of
24 of money to meet their share of the costs. 24 their obligation and I think will do their
25 Q. Is it a 30 percent share? 25 best to meet it or work out a payment
Page 345 Page 347
1 A. That's the -- Yes, that was the 1 arrangement to do that.

2 plan, it would be 30 percent of a piece of the 2 Q. As we sit here today on November 14,
3 construction, not necessarily all of it, 3 1965, that arrangement has not yet been
4 because there's some structures that were 4 finalized?
5 ordained as 100 percent Federal, but some 5 A. To my knowledge, that has not been
6 things that are -- that in the authorization 6 finalized.
7 acts specifically require cost sharing based 7 Q. Okay. I think I said -- I'll repeat
8 on the project cost level, which is 70/30. 8 the question. I'm getting tired.
9 Q. Will the Army Corps complete the 9 As of November 14th, 2007, that
10 work even if the 30 percent is not forthcoming 10 arrangement between the United States and the
11 as the construction goes forward? 11 State of Louisiana to pay for the mandated
12 A. I don't think we legally can. 12 share for enhanced hurricane protection for
13 Q. So if St. Bernard Parish is unable 13 local interests like St. Bernard Parish has
14 to pay its required share for the enhanced 14 not been finalized?
15 protection, they won't get it? 15 A. To the best of my knowledge, it has
16 A. Not necessarily. It could be from 16 not.
17 St. Bernard Parish or the State or some level 17 MR. O'DONNELL:
18 of State or local entity that could provide 18 Mark these as the next in order.
19 those funds. Or there could be other cost 19 MR. ANDRY:
20 sharing arrangements made with the concurrence 20 31.
21 of the Congress. 21 (Whereupon a discussion was held
22 Q. Right now St. Bernard Parish or 22 off the record.)
23 maybe the State of Louisiana is legally 23 EXAMINATION BY MR. O'DONNELL:
24 responsible for putting up whatever mandated 24 Q. Sir, I'm showing you an exhibit
25 share there is for the enhanced protection? 25 marked as 31. It's called a "Project Fact
Page 346 Page 348
87 (Pages 345 to 348)

1 Sheet" of the Army Corps of Engineers, New 1 It's not ours.

2 Orleans District. 2 MR. SMITH:
3 A. Uh-huh (affirmatively.) 3 This is the form in which you
4 Q. It's dated 20 July, 1990 and it's 4 received it?
5 about the MRGO and bank erosion. Do you see 5 MR. O'DONNELL:
6 that? 6 It's the form in which I got it.
7 A. Yes. 7 Thank you. Yes.
8 Q. In Corps parlance, what is a Project 8 Is that your Bates? Does that
9 Fact Sheet? 9 indicate I got it from the Corps?
10 A. It's a -- We try to make it one 10 MR. SMITH:
11 page. It briefly describes a project and its 11 Yes, I think it is.
12 authorization, what we're trying to do and 12 MR. O'DONNELL:
13 perhaps some issues or facts related to it. 13 MRGO, yo-yo, or Y O, whatever.
14 Q. Okay. In part it states in number 1 14 Okay.
15 that the purpose of the bank erosion 15 MR. SMITH:
16 investigation, whatever, says, quote, "Severe 16 Yes.
17 bank erosion is concerning on the MRGO 17 MR. O'DONNELL:
18 navigation channel". Do you see that? 18 No, that's not ours. Nor is the
19 A. Yes. 19 next two pages.
20 Q. Two sentences down, "Continued 20 EXAMINATION BY MR. O'DONNELL:
21 erosion could produce large breaches in the 21 Q. The last two pages of the document,
22 dwindling marsh buffer between the navigation 22 sir, are a letter to Senator John Breaux of
23 channel and the open waters of Lake Borgne and 23 Louisiana from Harold E. Manuel, Jr., Major,
24 Breton Sound, creating a major maintenance 24 U.S. Army, Acting District Engineer, dated
25 dredging problem." Do you see that? 25 July 25, 1990. Have you seen this document
Page 349 Page 351
1 A. Yes, sir. 1 before?

2 Q. We saw similar words in the 2 A. No, I don't think I have.
3 reconnaissance study of bank erosion from 3 Q. The third paragraph states "The
4 1988. Do you remember that? 4 Mississippi River Gulf Outlet project has
5 A. Yes. 5 caused significant land loss in St. Bernard
6 Q. Okay. Item 2-C under "Facts", "C, 6 Parish. The construction of the project
7 the project also provides for fore shore 7 resulted in the conversion of large areas of
8 protection along the north and south side of 8 marsh to open water in disposal areas and wave
9 the ship channel extending from the Inner 9 wash from vessel traffic continues to erode
10 Harbor Navigation Channel to the end of the 10 the marsh along the east bank of the channel.
11 hurricane protection levee. Completion of 11 The salt water intrusion caused by the channel
12 remaining fore shore protection along the MRGO 12 has also caused land loss and the conversion
13 is unscheduled until the need arises." Do you 13 of fresh marsh and swamp to salt marsh. The
14 see that? 14 salt marsh -- da-da-da -- oysters." Okay. Do
15 A. Yes. 15 you see that, sir?
16 Q. What portion of that are they 16 A. Yes.
17 talking about that is unscheduled at that 17 Q. Between 1990 and the time of
18 time? 18 Katrina, is it a fact that there continued to
19 A. I have no idea. 19 be land loss and marsh loss in the vicinity of
20 Q. Okay. 20 the MRGO?
21 MR. SMITH: 21 A. There are areas -- There were areas
22 Pierce, just so we can be clear, 22 of land loss and marsh loss. There are also
23 the handwriting on this document, do 23 areas of marsh creation in certain areas along
24 you know whose that -- 24 the MRGO as well.
25 MR. O'DONNELL: 25 Q. And what was responsible for the
Page 350 Page 352
88 (Pages 349 to 352)

1 marsh creation? 1 Q. Okay. The second paragraph states

2 A. Usually it's disposal of maintenance 2 "As you may know, we previously prepared a
3 dredging material to create marsh. 3 plan for fore shore protection of the MRGO
4 Q. Okay. Do you know whether it was a 4 bank and Chalmette hurricane protection
5 net gain or net loss between 1990 and 2005? 5 levee. However, due to technical problems
6 A. I don't know that. I'm sorry. 6 related to extremely poor foundation
7 Q. Do you know specifically where there 7 conditions, additional study and revision of
8 was marsh creation versus marsh loss between 8 the overall design is necessary." Do you see
9 1990 and 2005? 9 that?
10 A. No, I do not. 10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Can you tell me where I would go to 11 Q. What were the extremely poor
12 find out if any and how much there was of 12 foundation conditions in that area?
13 marsh creation between -- by the Corps' 13 A. I have no idea.
14 efforts between 1990 and 2005? 14 Q. The nature of the soil?
15 A. Well, it would either be in our 15 A. I would assume, but again, I don't
16 Operations Division, who are responsible for 16 know.
17 the maintenance dredging, or somebody in our 17 MR. O'DONNELL:
18 Coastal Restoration Branch. 18 Okay. This is a pretty good time
19 Q. Okay. Was this pursuant to some 19 to stop. It's about 5:15. I'll be
20 formal project authorized by Congress, or was 20 able to finish the witness in the
21 it the Corps -- 21 morning, and then we're going to bring
22 A. Just the normal maintenance of the 22 in -- You want to finish him first and
23 MRGO. They would take the material and 23 then bring in the other two?
24 deposit it in a way as to create marsh. 24 MR. SMITH:
25 Q. But you don't know whether whatever 25 Yes.
Page 353 Page 355
1 they were doing there, in terms of trying to 1 MR. O'DONNELL:

2 gain marsh land, was overwhelmed by loss of 2 9:00 o'clock a good time?
3 marsh land; right? 3 MR. SMITH:
4 A. I don't know. 4 Yes.
5 MR. O'DONNELL: 5 THE WITNESS:
6 We'll mark this as the next one. 6 Yes.
7 We have about two minutes of tape 7 MR. O'DONNELL:
8 left, so that means we have to stop. 8 Great. Super. I'd say we
9 MR. ANDRY: 9 validate, but you probably -- Did you
10 32. 10 park in the building downstairs?
11 EXAMINATION BY MR. O'DONNELL: 11 THE WITNESS:
12 Q. Number 32. Exhibit 32 is a letter 12 Yes, I did.
13 from Thomas A. Sands, Colonel, District 13 MR. O'DONNELL:
14 Engineer in the Corps of Engineers, dated 14 Great.
15 March 25, 1980. It's again to Jack Stephens, 15 VIDEO OPERATOR:
16 who is the Director Secretary of the St. 16 Off the record.
17 Bernard Parish Planning Commission. Do you 17 (Testimony continued at this point.)
18 see that? 18
19 A. Yes. 19
20 Q. Do you recall that there was an 20
21 ongoing dialogue between St. Bernard Parish 21
22 and the Army Corps of Engineers between the 22
23 late 1950s right up to the time of Katrina 23
24 about the MRGO? 24
25 A. Yeah. Generally, yeah. 25
Page 354 Page 356
89 (Pages 353 to 356)

1 VIDEO OPERATOR: 1 Q. And would you read that for us?

2 We are on the record. This is 2 A. This is Mr. Pinto's letter?
3 the continuing deposition of Mr. 3 Q. Yes, sir. To the Vice President.
4 Alfred Naomi. Today's date is 4 A. He says " This will cause water to
5 November 15th, 2007. 5 funnel up Intracoastal Canal into the
6 MR. SMITH: 6 Industrial Canal from the Gulf of Mexico."
7 Just for point of clarification, 7 Q. Okay. And then if we just move
8 this is a deposition of the United 8 forward in the letter to the first page, Major
9 States, not Mr. Naomi. 9 West was forwarded this correspondence and
10 EXAMINATION BY MR. O'DONNELL: 10 he's responding to Mr. Pinto, and I have
11 Q. Morning, sir. How are you? 11 highlighted the last paragraph of the first
12 A. Fine. 12 page continuing on to the top. Would you just
13 Q. Good. 13 read that for us?
14 MR. O'DONNELL: 14 A. We're starting with "You"?
15 Let's mark this as the next 15 Q. Yes.
16 exhibit in order if we could. 33. 16 A. "You also recommend construction of
17 EXAMINATION BY MR. O'DONNELL: 17 a lock in the MRGO, Mississippi River Gulf
18 Q. Sir, I put before you a letter dated 18 Outlet, west of Paris Road in order to prevent
19 26 November, 1969 from Steven G. West, Acting 19 hurricane surges from entering the IHNC, Inner
20 District Engineer for the Army Corps of 20 Harbor Navigation Canal." Continue?
21 engineers for the New Orleans District -- 21 Q. Please.
22 A. Uh-huh (affirmatively). 22 A. "We have previously investigated a
23 Q. -- to a Mr. Manuel Pinto, P I N T O, 23 similar plan and found the net increase in
24 a New Orleans resident. Do you see that? 24 benefits was small in comparison to the
25 A. Yes. 25 increased cost if the plan would provide the
Page 357 Page 359
1 Q. And if you look later in the 1 same degree of protection as the currently
2 document, I'll represent to you that Mr. Pinto 2 authorized plan."
3 wrote a letter to -- now here's a name from 3 Q. You can ignore the handwriting and
4 the past, Vice President Spiro Agnew, who I 4 the highlighting. It wasn't in the original.
5 guess was still Vice President then, and 5 Do you know what investigation
6 attached to -- toward the back of the letter 6 Major West is referring to that the Corps had
7 is his letter of October 21, 1969 to Vice 7 conducted prior to November, 1969 about the
8 President Agnew. That's it right there. Do 8 funnel effect?
9 you see that? 9 A. I have no idea.
10 A. Okay. 10 Q. Okay. You have never seen such a
11 Q. And he signs it on the second page. 11 study?
12 And he attaches a drawing from a map from a 12 A. No.
13 newspaper article in The Times-Picayune of 13 Q. Okay.
14 December 10, looks like 1965, but I am not 14 MR. O'DONNELL:
15 sure, and he has drawn an arrow and written 15 We'll mark this next in order,
16 the word "The funnel". Do you see that? 16 Robin.
17 A. Yeah. 17 MR. ANDRY:
18 Q. Where Lake Borgne is and moving 18 34.
19 toward the confluence of the GIWW, MRGO, Reach 19 EXAMINATION BY MR. O'DONNELL:
20 1, Reach 2. Do you see that arrow, sir? 20 Q. I have placed before you what's been
21 A. Yes. 21 marked as Exhibit Number 34. It's a draft
22 Q. He attached that to his letter. And 22 report, version 2.1, of the Army Corps, New
23 in the letter, on the bottom paragraph I have 23 Orleans District, dated 28 February 2006. The
24 highlighted a sentence. Do you see that? 24 title is "Elevations for design of hurricane
25 A. Yes. 25 protection levees and structures within the
Page 358 Page 360
90 (Pages 357 to 360)

1 New Orleans District." Do you see that? 1 to the Plaintiffs and the injunction -- and
2 A. Yes. 2 the agreement was to go with what was in the
3 Q. Can you just tell me generically 3 re-evaluation report. I don't know the legal
4 what this document is? 4 terms. It was basically an agreement amongst
5 A. That's the first time I have ever 5 parties to proceed with the project based on
6 seen it. 6 the re-evaluation report.
7 Q. Oh, okay. Has there been a planning 7 Q. And did that project proceed,
8 process since Hurricane Katrina for raising 8 however?
9 the elevation of levees in the hurricane 9 A. Yes.
10 protection system? 10 Q. It did?
11 A. There's been a process to evaluate 11 A. Yes.
12 elevations to come up with the proper heights 12 Q. But ultimately the barrier plan was
13 based on the Congressional mandate to go to 13 -- the barrier plan was abandoned; correct?
14 100 year level protection. 14 A. Based on the results of the
15 Q. Right. And so technical studies are 15 re-evaluation report, the evaluation plan was
16 being done and drafted? 16 not constructed -- I mean the barrier plan was
17 A. Oh, yes. Sure. 17 not constructed.
18 Q. Great. 18 Q. Okay. You weren't involved with
19 MR. O'DONNELL: 19 that litigation; right?
20 I'll represent to you, Robin, I 20 A. Oh, no.
21 believe there's a final version of 21 Q. So you don't know technically
22 this document. For some reason I 22 whether there were injunctions, settlement,
23 couldn't download it. So if and when 23 whatever? You just --
24 I get it, I'll send it to you. Okay? 24 A. I just know what I have read based
25 MR. SMITH: 25 on what I have seen in documents and fact
Page 361 Page 363
1 All right. 1 sheets.

2 MR. O'DONNELL: 2 Q. Okay. Great.
3 Okay. We'll mark this next in 3 MR. O'DONNELL:
4 order, please. 4 Mark this as the next in order.
5 MR. ANDRY: 5 MR. ANDRY:
6 35. 6 36.
8 Q. I have marked another Corps New 8 36? Thank you.
9 Orleans District document, sir, dated July, 9 EXAMINATION BY MR. O'DONNELL:
10 1984. It's the LPHVPP re-evaluation study, 10 Q. Sir, I have put before you a
11 volume 2, technical appendixes. Do you see 11 document we have marked Number 36. It's from
12 that? 12 the War Department, Corps of Engineers,
13 A. Yes, sir. 13 Mississippi River Commission. It's entitled "
14 Q. And what is -- what was the 14 Code for utilization of soils data for
15 re-evaluation study? 15 levees." Bears a date April, 1947. Are you
16 A. Well, after the Corps was enjoined 16 familiar with this document?
17 in Federal court from constructing barrier 17 A. I am not.
18 structures at the Rigolets and Chef Passes and 18 MR. O'DONNELL:
19 some other aspects, the Corps did a 19 Robin, I think you've told me
20 re-evaluation of the project to try and 20 this was the precursor to the 1978
21 resolve the issues that were raised in the 21 Manual for Design and Construction of
22 case. And the way that we addressed it was 22 Levees that the Corps provided you?
23 through this re-evaluation study, which 23 MR. SMITH:
24 included an environmental impact statement, 24 Mr. Baumy may have testified to
25 which, my understanding, was deemed acceptable 25 that yesterday. I don't know.
Page 362 Page 364
91 (Pages 361 to 364)

1 MR. O'DONNELL: 1 itself.

2 I think Mr. Baumy said that there 2 A. Sure.
3 may have been a '47 document and you 3 Q. Let's go to page 9. One of the
4 were kind enough to make it available 4 things you reported on were expected future
5 to me. 5 conditions with respect to hurricane and
6 MR. SMITH: 6 potential damage. Do you see that at the
7 Fine. 7 bottom of 9, the top of 10?
8 MR. O'DONNELL: 8 A. Yes.
9 So I am just marking this for 9 Q. Would you read that paragraph for me
10 identification as what I believe Mr. 10 slowly? And I may interrupt you every
11 Baumy referred to. 11 sentence. Would you start, please?
12 MR. SMITH: 12 A. "While the Lake Pontchartrain
13 Yes. I think that's right. 13 Vicinity Louisiana and West Bank Vicinity
14 MR. O'DONNELL: 14 Louisiana projects provide protection for the
15 I don't need to ask any more 15 Standard Project Hurricane, this level of
16 questions about it. 16 protection cannot protect against slow moving
17 MR. ANDRY: 17 Category 3 or higher strength storms."
18 37. 18 Q. Can I stop you right there if you
19 MR. O'DONNELL: 19 don't mind? What's a slow moving Category 3
20 Mark this as Number 37. 20 storm?
21 EXAMINATION BY MR. O'DONNELL: 21 A. Well, a storm that moves very slowly
22 Q. Sir, I have placed before you 22 in its progression across the Gulf or into the
23 Exhibit 37, which is entitled "Hurricane 23 state would tend to produce higher surges.
24 Protection Louisiana, 28 June 2002". Can you 24 Q. What was a Katrina when it hit
25 tell me what this is? 25 landfall?
Page 365 Page 367
1 A. This is the reconnaissance report or 1 A. Well, when it hit landfall, it was a

2 commonly called a Section 905-B report for the 2 Category 3 storm.
3 Hurricane Protection Louisiana Study, and that 3 Q. Was it slow moving?
4 was envisioned by Congress, or authorized by 4 A. I don't know how to define that.
5 Congress for the Corps to look at higher 5 Q. I guess if you're trying to get out
6 levels of protection like a Category 5 6 of town, it probably wasn't viewed as slow
7 protection level. 7 moving. But do you know how the
8 Q. And the purpose of this report is to 8 meteorologists characterized it? Do you know
9 discern whether there's a Federal interest? 9 whether it was considered a slow moving
10 A. That's correct. 10 Category 3?
11 Q. Were you involved with this study? 11 A. I don't know that.
12 A. Yes, I was. 12 Q. But it was a Category 3 when it hit
13 Q. And what was the conclusion about 13 landfall?
14 whether there was a Federal interest in 14 A. Where it hit land, it was Category
15 considering increasing the level of protection 15 3.
16 on the levees? 16 Q. In the Gulf it was a higher strength
17 A. We concluded that there was a 17 storm; right?
18 Federal interest that would -- and we 18 A. Yes, it was.
19 recommended proceeding to feasibility. 19 Q. Category 5?
20 Q. And at the time of Hurricane 20 A. Category 5.
21 Katrina, that feasibility study had not yet 21 Q. Generating surge or wave -- surge
22 been authorized and funded by Congress? 22 and wave of what height?
23 A. That's correct. 23 A. I don't know the precise numbers,
24 Q. Okay. I just have a couple of 24 but they were the highest recorded that they
25 questions to ask you about in the document 25 ever recorded.
Page 366 Page 368
92 (Pages 365 to 368)

1 Q. And -- 1 2007, none of these projects have yet been

2 A. Extremely high. 2 implemented; correct?
3 Q. -- you indicated that when it hit 3 A. There have been a few I think under
4 the MRGO levees, it was about 22 feet? 4 the Breaux Act, but none of the big, big
5 A. That's what I have heard. 5 projects that are envisioned have been --
6 Q. Okay. Fine. Would you read the 6 Well, they just were authorized by Congress.
7 next sentence? 7 Q. But not funded yet?
8 A. "In addition, the project area --" 8 A. Not funded yet.
9 Q. I'm sorry, "The remaining". I'm 9 Q. Did the recent Water Resources
10 sorry. The next sentence. 10 Development Act provide some of that funding?
11 A. Oh, I'm sorry. "The remaining 11 A. Provided authority, but no funding.
12 hurricane protection projects provide much 12 Q. That's kind of been a common
13 lower levels of protection." 13 experience for the Corps, hasn't it?
14 Q. What do you mean by "the remaining 14 A. I think it's the way the Federal
15 projects"? 15 government operates. It provides
16 A. Well, there are other hurricane 16 authorization through one set of bills, and
17 protection projects other than the Lake 17 the appropriations committees handle who gets
18 Pontchartrain and West Bank projects -- 18 the money.
19 Q. Got you. 19 Q. So the key is getting appropriations
20 A. -- that had lower levels of 20 after an authorization; right?
21 protection. 21 A. Yes, sir.
22 Q. Would you read the next sentence, 22 Q. Go to the next section, if you
23 please? 23 would, on page 10 called "Problems and
24 A. Okay. "In addition, the project 24 opportunities". Do you see that heading, sir?
25 areas experiencing high levels of coastal 25 A. Yes.
Page 369 Page 371
1 wetlands losses which is likely increasing the 1 Q. Would you read the second paragraph
2 threat from hurricanes." 2 for me, please?
3 Q. Okay. Now, we talked about that 3 A. "In addition, overtopping of the
4 yesterday. We saw a number of documents that 4 existing protection areas will flood vast
5 were chronicling that development; correct, 5 areas of the metropolitan area."
6 sir? 6 Q. May I stop you? That turned out to
7 A. Yes. 7 be prophetic, did it not?
8 Q. Would you read the next sentence, 8 A. Sure.
9 please? 9 Q. Vast areas of the metropolitan area
10 A. "Although coastal restoration 10 were flooded because a storm hit greater New
11 projects have been constructed, these have not 11 Orleans that exceeded the capacity of the
12 significantly reversed the current rate of 12 hurricane protection system even if it had
13 losses." 13 been at design grade to stop the surge;
14 Q. Okay. This suggests that there had 14 correct?
15 not been by 2002, when this report was 15 A. I think that's correct.
16 written, a net gain of land, correct, in the 16 Q. Would you read the next sentence,
17 area? 17 please?
18 A. That's correct. 18 A. "Analysis of this possibility has
19 Q. Next, the next sentence, please? 19 project -- has projected that unwatering the
20 A. "Additional projects have been 20 flooded areas would take many months."
21 proposed and are under study to address the 21 Q. Again, in 2002 this sentence is
22 coastal land loss problem, but these projects 22 prophetic. That's exactly what happened in
23 have not moved beyond a study stage at this 23 the wake of Hurricane Katrina; it took months
24 time." 24 for the water to subside in greater New
25 Q. And today, in the latter part of 25 Orleans?
Page 370 Page 372
93 (Pages 369 to 372)

1 A. I don't know if it was months, but 1 39.

2 certainly many weeks. 2 EXAMINATION BY MR. O'DONNELL:
3 Q. Okay. Would you read the next 3 Q. Again we have an Army Corps document
4 sentence, please? 4 dated November, 1959 for the Mississippi River
5 A. "With large amounts of the 5 Gulf Outlet, design memorandum number 1-C,
6 metropolitan area flooded for long periods -- 6 channels with certain mile indications,
7 long periods of time, extremely high damages 7 particularly Bayou LaLoutre and the 38 foot
8 to infrastructure, businesses, and homes can 8 contour. This is also a Corps document?
9 be expected." 9 A. It appears to be, yes, sir.
10 Q. That was prophetic and probably an 10 Q. And you're not familiar with this
11 understatement; correct? 11 document?
12 A. Sure. 12 A. I am not.
13 Q. In light of what happened in 13 Q. Okay.
14 Katrina? 14 MR. ANDRY:
15 A. Yes. Continue? 15 40.
16 Q. No. Thank you. 16 EXAMINATION BY MR. O'DONNELL:
17 This feasibility -- I'm sorry. 17 Q. Okay. This is also an Army Corps
18 This reconnaissance study was in part prompted 18 document, Mississippi River Gulf Outlet,
19 by concerns that people had in the wake of the 19 September, 1958, entitled "Design memorandum
20 near-miss of Hurricane Georges in September, 20 number 1-B, channels, mile 39.01 to mile
21 1998? 21 63.77," it's got written in handwriting "St.
22 A. Yes, sir. 22 Vern, Wycloski, MRGO," looks like capital "Z",
23 Q. And that's chronicled on page 10 if 23 unquote, borings. This is a Corps document as
24 you look at page 10. The first sentence under 24 well, sir?
25 "Problems and opportunities"? 25 A. It appears to be, yes, sir.
Page 373 Page 375
1 A. Yes. 1 Q. Are you familiar with this document?

2 MR. O'DONNELL: 2 A. I am not.
3 Okay. We'll mark this the next 3 MR. ANDRY:
4 in order. 4 41.
5 MR. ANDRY: 5 EXAMINATION BY MR. O'DONNELL:
6 38. 6 Q. Exhibit 41 is a study entitled
7 EXAMINATION BY MR. O'DONNELL: 7 "Storm surge effects of the Mississippi River
8 Q. I have put before you Exhibit 38, 8 Gulf Outlet, Study A," dated September 9, 1966
9 which is an Army Corps of Engineers document 9 prepared by Dr. Charles L. Bretschneider, B R
10 entitled "Mississippi River Gulf Outlet 10 E T S C H N E I D E R, and Dr. J. Ian, Y A --
11 Louisiana. It's dated January, 1966. It's 11 excuse me, I A N, Collins. This sometimes is
12 design memorandum number 1-C, channel 12 known as the Bretschneider and Collins study.
13 supplement number 1, stone retention dike 13 Are you familiar with it, sir?
14 extension. Do you see that? 14 A. No, I am not.
15 A. Yes, I do. 15 MR. ANDRY:
16 Q. Okay. And that's a Corps document; 16 42.
17 right? 17 EXAMINATION BY MR. O'DONNELL:
18 A. It appears to be, yes. 18 Q. I have marked now as 42 another
19 Q. Okay. Great. And I take it you're 19 Corps document for the Mississippi River Gulf
20 not familiar with it? 20 Outlet entitled "Design memorandum number 1-A,
21 A. I am not familiar with it. 21 Channels, mile 63.77 to mile 68.85" with some
22 MR. O'DONNELL: 22 handwriting. This is a Corps document.
23 The next document. That's number 23 Doesn't it appear to be, sir?
24 what? 24 A. Yes, sir.
25 MR. ANDRY: 25 Q. Are you familiar with this document?
Page 374 Page 376
94 (Pages 373 to 376)

1 A. I am not. 1 Q. I have put before you, sir, Exhibit

2 Q. Now, I have shown you several 2 44, which is a letter from you, Alfred C.
3 different iterations of design memoranda for 3 Naomi, Senior Project Manager, to the
4 various parts of the MRGO. Is the process 4 Honorable Rita R. Hunter of the House of
5 that's used to design and construct a river 5 Representatives of Louisiana, dated October
6 like the MRGO somewhat like the design process 6 23, 2002. And attached to it appears to be a
7 we talked about for levees? 7 letter to which you are responding, which is a
8 A. Well, I would -- As far as using 8 letter from Representative Hutter. I'm sorry,
9 design memoranda? 9 not Hunter, Hutter, H U T T E R, to Colonel
10 Q. Yes. 10 Peter Rowan, District Engineer for New
11 A. Yeah. 11 Orleans, dated August 26, 2002.
12 Q. And the purpose of a Design Memo is 12 A. Uh-huh (affirmatively).
13 similar, to scope out? 13 Q. Did you remember sending this
14 A. Well, it's to lay out the, you know, 14 letter, sir?
15 design criteria for the project that you're 15 A. I vaguely remember it, yes.
16 going to build. 16 Q. Okay. Would you look on the second
17 Q. Right. 17 paragraph? I have highlighted it.
18 MR. O'DONNELL: 18 A. Uh-huh (affirmatively).
19 Mark this as the next in order. 19 Q. Would you read the highlighted
20 MR. ANDRY: 20 portion? This is your letter to
21 43. 21 Representative Hutter, October 23, 2002.
22 EXAMINATION BY MR. O'DONNELL: 22 A. Okay. "You are correct in noting
23 Q. Exhibit 43 are some excerpts from 23 that levees on the St. Bernard side of the
24 the IPET report, volume 5, entitled "The 24 Gulf Outlet are being raised. As you are
25 performance levees and floodwalls technical 25 probably aware, due to the weak and highly
Page 377 Page 379
1 appendix," and it's pages Roman V-18-60 1 compressible nature of the soils in this area,
2 through Roman V-18-81. Have you ever looked 2 it is necessary to periodically reconstruct
3 at the IPET report, sir? 3 levees in phases or lifts. As settlement
4 A. I looked at portions of it. 4 occurs, we award contracts to ensure that the
5 Q. Okay. Are you familiar with the 5 levees remain at the design elevation."
6 technical appendix and some of the -- 6 Q. We talked about that yesterday, the
7 Withdrawn. You mentioned that LIDAR studies 7 building of lifts or enlargements in
8 of the sections of Reach 1 and Reach 2 of the 8 progressive stages; correct?
9 MRGO were performed by the Corps after 9 A. Correct.
10 Katrina? 10 Q. In terms of a section that's built,
11 A. That's what I understand. 11 do you know what the approximate length was
12 Q. Okay. You're not an expert on 12 for Reach 2 when you built a section and then
13 LIDAR, I take it; right? 13 you were enlarging that?
14 A. No. 14 A. I really don't remember the length
15 Q. Have you used LIDAR in planning? 15 of the levee that we did at that time.
16 A. We have hired contractors to fly 16 Q. Is it in hundreds of yards, half
17 LIDAR for us to get results, but I am not an 17 mile? Just an approximation.
18 expert on the actual technicalities of how it 18 A. It's probably -- In this case, I am
19 works. 19 guessing about a mile, but I don't know.
20 MR. O'DONNELL: 20 Q. So a stretch that was being worked
21 We'll mark this the next in 21 on for a lift might be as long as a mile?
22 order. Thank you. 44? 22 A. Could be longer.
23 MR. ANDRY: 23 Q. Could be longer?
24 Yes, 44. 24 A. Yes.
25 EXAMINATION BY MR. O'DONNELL: 25 Q. Okay.
Page 378 Page 380
95 (Pages 377 to 380)

1 MR. O'DONNELL: 1 we don't really use any more, but it's

2 Next in order. 44? 45? 2 basically a memo from office to office. That
3 MR. ANDRY: 3 was just the terminology used at that time.
4 45. 4 Q. Okay. You didn't author this, did
5 EXAMINATION BY MR. O'DONNELL: 5 you?
6 Q. Sir, I have put before you a 6 A. I did not.
7 document entitled "Issue paper, Mississippi 7 Q. But it references your name.
8 River Gulf Outlet, Louisiana bank erosion, New 8 A. Yes.
9 Orleans District, 17 February 1993". And 9 Q. It says "Recent conversations
10 there's a bunch of people to whom it was 10 between Mr. J. Warren, Mr. A. Naomi and
11 distributed, and your name appears on the 11 others". Do you see that?
12 second page, -- 12 A. Yes.
13 A. Uh-huh (affirmatively). 13 Q. Do you recall this discussion?
14 Q. -- Mr. Naomi. What's an issue -- 14 A. Not really.
15 What is this document? What's an issue paper? 15 Q. There's a reference in numbered
16 A. Well, if there's a particular issue 16 paragraph 3 to "Three options are being
17 for a project that we want folks on the staff 17 considered for application of the erosion
18 to recognize or to understand, we put what's 18 abatement measures along the unleveed banks of
19 called an issue paper together highlighting 19 the MRGO." Do you see that?
20 what the issue is and the status and the 20 A. Yes.
21 background; how we, you know -- so people have 21 Q. And then subsection A, it says
22 a better understanding of what we're talking 22 "Critical reaches only north bank".
23 about. 23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Okay. The first sentence under 24 Q. And then there's some mile markers.
25 "Statement of issue" says "Since the 25 Do you see that?
Page 381 Page 383
1 completion of the MRGO ship channel in 1963, 1 A. Yes.

2 thousands of acres of marsh along the channel 2 Q. And these are the standard mile
3 have been lost due to bank erosion and 3 measurements of the MRGO like mile 51 to mile
4 saltwater intrusion. Do you see that? 4 56?
5 A. Where is that? In the statement? 5 A. I believe that's correct.
6 Q. Yes. 6 Q. Okay. That's within -- Where is
7 A. Yes, I see that. 7 that map I had. I had a map here I used.
8 Q. And we talked with that yesterday; 8 The stretch between Bayou Dupre --
9 right? 9 excuse me, Bayou Bienvenu navigation
10 A. Yes. 10 structure, sir, --
11 Q. Okay. And do you know the 11 A. Yes.
12 quantification by 1993 of how many thousands 12 Q. -- and Bayou Dupre we established it
13 of acres had been lost? 13 was approximately 12 or 13 miles? Do you
14 A. I don't know. 14 recall that?
15 Q. Okay. 15 A. Something like that.
16 MR. ANDRY: 16 Q. And it was mile 43 to mile 60? Do
17 6. 46. 17 you remember that?
18 EXAMINATION BY MR. O'DONNELL: 18 A. I don't remember that, no.
19 Q. I have put before you Exhibit 46, 19 Q. All right. Now, when they mention
20 which is entitled "Disposition form". It's 20 "north bank" here, is that the Lake Borgne
21 dated 21 July, 1987. This is an internal 21 side of the Reach 2 of MRGO?
22 Corps document, sir? 22 A. Yes.
23 A. Yes, it is. 23 Q. Okay. And then in item C when they
24 Q. What's a disposition form? 24 say "unleveed south bank", that's the
25 A. Well, it's -- it was -- It's a form 25 protected side; correct? Supposedly
Page 382 Page 384
96 (Pages 381 to 384)

1 protected? 1 overtopping these higher banks." Do you see

2 A. No. That levee -- This refers to I 2 that?
3 believe the unleveed south bank below the 3 A. Yes.
4 termination of the hurricane protection 4 Q. What was the height of the banks at
5 system. 5 that point of this memo in 1987? Do you know?
6 Q. Below it. Okay. Fine. In terms of 6 A. I don't know.
7 the -- Yes, because it's going towards the 7 Q. The last sentence of paragraph 4
8 Gulf. 47 to 23. Correct? 8 says, quote, "Hurricanes that are critical to
9 A. Correct. 9 the area will easily overtop the bank
10 Q. All right. Good. And then "north 10 protection. Therefore, stages with and
11 bank only", item B, mile 60 to 23, is that 11 without hurricanes will be essentially the
12 within the protection system? 12 same." Do you see that?
13 A. No. It's south -- It's on the Lake 13 A. Yes.
14 Borgne side. It's north -- North bank is on 14 Q. Okay. And that was in 1987?
15 the Lake Borgne side. 15 A. Correct.
16 Q. Okay. Great. 16 Q. Paragraph 5 states, quote,
17 MR. ANDRY: 17 "Breakthroughs from Lake Borgne to the MRGO
18 47. 18 already exist." Do you see that?
19 EXAMINATION BY MR. O'DONNELL: 19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Thank you. I have marked another 20 Q. That's a reference to the fact that
21 disposition form of the Army Corps of 21 there's no land in some places separating the
22 Engineers. This is Exhibit 47. It's dated 4 22 MRGO and Lake Borgne?
23 August 1987. The subject is "The MRGO bank 23 A. I believe that's correct.
24 erosion study reconnaissance report" and the 24 Q. This was in 1987?
25 cover page is signed by Cecil W. -- 25 A. Correct.
Page 385 Page 387
1 A. Soileau. 1 MR. O'DONNELL:

2 Q. -- Soileau. S O I L E A W? Chief, 2 Mark this as the next.
3 Hydraulics and Hydrologic Branch. Is that 3 MR. ANDRY:
4 within the New Orleans District? 4 48.
5 A. Yes, it is. 5 EXAMINATION BY MR. O'DONNELL:
6 Q. Do you recall this document? 6 Q. I have marked for you an exhibit,
7 A. No, I don't. 7 sir, Number 48, which is a Corps document.
8 Q. Do you see paragraph 4? It's 8 The bottom says "Mississippi Valley Division,
9 highlighted. 9 New Orleans District, Lake Pontchartrain
10 A. Yes. 10 Louisiana Vicinity," parentheses, "Hurricane
11 Q. It says "Annual peak stages often 11 protection". And the top left is dealing with
12 exceed 4 feet along the MRGO." What are they 12 monies for 1999, 2000, 2001 fiscal years. Do
13 referring to in terms of peak stages? 13 you see that?
14 A. I assume they mean peak water 14 A. Yes.
15 levels. 15 Q. Generically what is this document
16 Q. Okay. 16 called in the Corps?
17 A. Due to high tides and what have you. 17 A. This is -- I think -- I believe this
18 Q. High tides. Okay. 18 is what we refer to as a justification suit.
19 A. Or whatever, storms, whatever. But 19 Q. Okay. What are you justifying?
20 annually that's what they would expect. 20 A. Our project budget justifications.
21 Q. Then the sentence says -- the next 21 Q. Okay. Were you involved with this
22 sentence says "The construction of bank 22 process when you had your job as Senior
23 protection works along the MRGO to elevations 23 Project Manager?
24 varying between 2 and 2 feet NGVD will not 24 A. Yes.
25 prevent significant hurricane surges from 25 Q. Did you work on this document?
Page 386 Page 388
97 (Pages 385 to 388)

1 A. I don't see a date on this, so I 1 49.

2 really can't tell you when this document was 2 EXAMINATION BY MR. O'DONNELL:
3 actually prepared. It says through '99. This 3 Q. I place before you Exhibit 49, which
4 is looking for the 2001 budget. It's possible 4 is a printout of Al Naomi quotes from a
5 I might have worked on this, yes. 5 website called "Thinkexist.com". Are you
6 Q. In the highlighted yellow -- Do you 6 familiar with that site?
7 see that highlighted yellow? 7 A. Not really, no.
8 A. Uh-huh (affirmatively). 8 Q. Did you know you were such a
9 Q. Would you read the second sentence 9 celebrity that you got your own entry?
10 beginning "The eastern portion of the area"? 10 A. I'm not surprised.
11 A. "The eastern portion of the area is 11 Q. Okay. I am just going to ask you a
12 also subject to flooding by surges and waves 12 couple of things and ask you if you said these
13 that move directly from Lake Borgne and 13 and approximately when. Okay? In fact, I
14 overtop the then existing inadequate protected 14 have made it easy. I marked them in the left
15 system seaward of the developed land areas." 15 margin. Okay? Would you read the first one I
16 Q. This document was generated 16 have marked?
17 somewhere around 1999, 2000? 17 A. Marked?
18 A. I am -- Possibly, yeah. 18 Q. Right there (indicating). The lower
19 Q. Looking at the numbers in the upper 19 -- No, down on the bottom on the left. The
20 left. 20 first --
21 A. Yeah. Yeah. That's probably right. 21 A. Oh, I'm sorry.
22 Q. And so still by that period of time, 22 Q. Yes. Would you read that out loud
23 1999 or so, there was a risk of overtopping 23 for us?
24 the inadequate protection system toward the 24 A. "I can't go above it by law. That's
25 Lake Borgne side, correct, along -- 25 what I am authorized to do. Anything above
Page 389 Page 391
1 A. No. This -- This sentence is 1 that means I have to spend money that Congress
2 referring to justification for the project 2 specifically authorizes for that purpose.
3 that was given when the project was 3 Only then we can go build it. It's not
4 authorized. The inadequate protected system 4 simple."
5 seaward of the developed land areas was 5 Q. And did you say that?
6 referring to the original protected system 6 A. I might have. I don't really know.
7 that was in place at that time of 7 Something like that.
8 authorization. 8 Q. You said basically the same thing
9 Q. Right. And by 1999, however, none 9 yesterday, that the Corps can only spend money
10 of the levees on Reach 2 had quite yet reached 10 on specific projects when the funds have been
11 design grade level of 17 and a half feet; 11 authorized and appropriated by Congress;
12 correct? 12 correct?
13 A. Oh, I think at one point they were 13 A. That is correct.
14 constructed that high, yes. But they didn't 14 Q. The Corps doesn't have discretion
15 stay there. 15 just to go out and spend money willy-nilly.
16 Q. They settled; right? 16 A. That's correct.
17 A. They settled. 17 Q. So that's the gist of this quote
18 Q. Right. We Googled you, Mr. Naomi, 18 here; right?
19 and you have been speaking on behalf of the 19 A. Well, I don't know what it -- I
20 Corps during and after Katrina. I am just 20 meant by "it". I would have to see the
21 going to ask you about a couple of your 21 question. But if that's what they were
22 quotes, confirm that you actually said them. 22 asking, then that's probably the response I
23 MR. O'DONNELL: 23 gave.
24 What is our next exhibit? 24 Q. Certainly it was your view at the
25 MR. ANDRY: 25 time of Katrina, as I understand, and it's
Page 390 Page 392
98 (Pages 389 to 392)

1 still your view today, that the Corps cannot 1 and somebody outside the Corps.
2 build flood protection works, first, that have 2 Q. Right. Congress has to, for
3 not been authorized by Congress; correct? 3 example, appropriate the remaining funds for
4 A. That's correct. 4 the Corps to get to the 2011 goal --
5 Q. That have not been funded by 5 A. Yes.
6 Congress; correct? 6 Q. -- of the hurricane protection
7 A. Correct. 7 that's been recommended for augmenting the
8 Q. You can't get ahead of schedule and 8 hurricane protection system for greater New
9 authorize contractors to do work for building 9 Orleans.
10 levees or enlarging levees to design grade 10 A. Yes, sir.
11 until Congress has actually appropriated the 11 Q. Until Congress appropriates that
12 funds for your budget? 12 money, the Corps can't do it?
13 A. That's correct. 13 A. That's correct.
14 Q. And that's a separate budget for the 14 Q. And if it's never done, your view is
15 Lake Pontchartrain and Vicinity Hurricane 15 that's negligence?
16 Protection Project; correct? 16 A. Well, --
17 A. Every project has its own line item 17 Q. It's your personal view?
18 in the budget. 18 A. That's my personal view, but, of
19 Q. Including this protective system? 19 course, I can't say that -- I don't make the
20 A. Yes, it does. 20 judgment on that. That's my personal opinion.
21 Q. Okay. And MRGO also had its own 21 Q. Well, the analysts tell us that it's
22 separate appropriations, did it not? 22 only a matter of time before another severe
23 A. Yes, it does. 23 hurricane hits greater New Orleans; correct?
24 Q. I think you said that was the 24 A. Or anywhere else along the coast,
25 Operation and Maintenance budget? 25 for that matter. Houston, Tampa, Miami.
Page 393 Page 395
1 A. That's correct. 1 Q. In one sense, we're kind of all in

2 Q. Okay. Let's go to the next quote 2 this together, aren't we?
3 which is at the bottom of page -- the first 3 A. Yes. We're all in the same boat.
4 page at 49, over to the top. Would you read 4 It's just New Orleans got in the boat first.
5 that out loud? 5 Q. You made this quote, did you not, to
6 A. "It's possible to protect New 6 a Philadelphia Inquirer reporter, sir?
7 Orleans from a Category 5 hurricane. To do 7 A. Which quote is that?
8 nothing is tantamount to negligence." 8 Q. The one we just talked about,
9 Q. Did you say that? 9 "tantamount to negligence".
10 A. I probably did. 10 A. Oh, I don't know who it was to.
11 Q. Okay. Is that your view? 11 MR. O'DONNELL:
12 A. It's my personal opinion. 12 Let me mark this as an exhibit.
13 Q. Yes. Your personal opinion is that 13 MR. ANDRY:
14 if New Orleans is not protected eventually 14 50.
15 from a Category 5, it's tantamount to 15 MR. O'DONNELL:
16 negligence? 16 What is it, sir? 50?
17 A. I think that we have a respons- -- 17 MR. ANDRY:
18 Yeah. I think if we're going to live here, we 18 Exhibit 50.
19 got to do something. 19 MR. O'DONNELL:
20 Q. And the "we" is the American people 20 Thank you.
21 through the Congress and the President? 21 EXAMINATION BY MR. O'DONNELL:
22 A. Somebody. 22 Q. Sir, earlier we discussed yesterday
23 Q. The Corps can't just go out and -- 23 the fact that the Corps did not implement the
24 A. No, we can't. Somebody has got to 24 barrier plan authorized by Congress in the
25 make that decision that this is worth doing, 25 1965 Flood Control Act, but instead proceeded
Page 394 Page 396
99 (Pages 393 to 396)

1 to build what's been known as the High Level 1 Q. Chief of Engineers. Okay.
2 Plan. Do you remember that testimony? 2 Is there an established regulation
3 A. That's correct. 3 or procedure, guideline, or standard that I
4 Q. And I asked you, well, if Congress 4 could look at about how the Corps goes about
5 didn't authorize a change in a different 5 making a decision not to follow a
6 direction, how was it done, and I believe you 6 Congressional authorization for, say, a civil
7 testified that the Corps believes that the 7 work like a flood protection and what process
8 Chief of Engineers of the Corps has the 8 of notification is given to the Congress?
9 discretion to do that? 9 Have you seen --
10 A. Yes. He informs Congress and 10 A. I imagine there is, but I don't
11 basically there's an agreement to proceed. 11 know.
12 Q. Okay. Is there any subsequent 12 Q. I put before you Exhibit 50, which
13 legislation enacted or does he just notify 13 is a computer printout --
14 Congress "I'm going in a different direction"? 14 MR. ANDRY:
15 A. I'm not aware of any, but it's 15 51. No, that's 50. You're
16 through the appropriation of Congress process 16 right. I'm sorry.
17 Congress -- 17 EXAMINATION BY MR. O'DONNELL:
18 Q. Do you know whether the Corps in 18 Q. Number 50. A computer printout of
19 fact informed the Congress of the Corps' 19 an article titled "New Orleans, growing
20 decision not to implement the barrier plan, 20 danger, wetlands loss leaves city a hurricane
21 but to proceed in a different direction with 21 hit away from disaster" by Paul Nussbaum,
22 what's called the High Level Plan? 22 Inquirer staff reporter. And we printed this
23 A. I'm pretty sure Congress is aware of 23 off the Philadelphia Inquirer website. Do you
24 it, yes. 24 see that?
25 Q. Do you know whether they notified 25 A. Yes.
Page 397 Page 399
1 Congress? 1 Q. Okay. And do you remember talking

2 A. I'm sure there was some 2 to a Philadelphia Inquirer reporter?
3 notification, but I don't know how that was 3 A. Probably. I don't -- I talk to a
4 done. 4 lot of people.
5 Q. So just to be clear, you are not 5 Q. Okay.
6 personally familiar with -- 6 MR. SMITH:
7 A. No. 7 The question was whether you
8 Q. -- any such notice? You didn't 8 remembered.
9 convey the notice yourself? 9 THE WITNESS:
10 A. Oh, no. 10 I don't remember. No.
11 Q. Okay. And you haven't seen any such 11 EXAMINATION BY MR. O'DONNELL:
12 notice? 12 Q. Okay. It appears that this article
13 A. No. 13 was published before Katrina from the context,
14 Q. Is that notice required under the 14 but let's look at page 3. Okay?
15 Corps' view of the inherent authority of the 15 A. Uh-huh (affirmatively).
16 Commander of -- or Chief of Engineers? 16 Q. In the middle of the page I have put
17 A. I don't know. 17 a bracket. Do you see that?
18 Q. He's not called -- 18 A. Yes.
19 A. I assume that Congress has to -- If 19 Q. Would you read it for me?
20 they're going to an appropriate money for a 20 A. "Experts say it will take a
21 change in plan, then they have to be aware of 21 combination of higher levees, new flood gates
22 the change. 22 and restored wetlands to save New Orleans and
23 Q. What is the title of the head of the 23 time is not an ally. Hurricane protection
24 Corps again? I misspoke. 24 projects are moving slowly even as the threat
25 A. He's the Chief of Engineers. 25 seems to grow each year. It's possible to
Page 398 Page 400
100 (Pages 397 to 400)

1 protect New Orleans from a Category 5 1 A. Yes.

2 hurricane, said Al Naomi, Senior Project 2 Q. Are you familiar with as-built
3 Manager for the Corps of Engineers, but we've 3 drawings? You mentioned them yesterday, I
4 got to start. To do nothing is tantamount to 4 think.
5 negligence." 5 A. I'm familiar with what as-built
6 Q. Okay. Do you believe that's 6 drawings are, yes.
7 accurate? 7 Q. By the way, the date on this first
8 A. I think that's a fairly accurate 8 page --
9 quote. 9 A. You got me.
10 Q. In fact, if you look at the first 10 Q. You got me, too.
11 page, your Commander of the New Orleans 11 MR. SMITH:
12 District of the Army Corps is also quoted. 12 November, '82?
13 His name was Rowan at the time? 13 MR. O'DONNELL:
14 A. Yes. 14 Yes. Thank you, Robin.
15 Q. Colonel Peter Rowan? 15 THE WITNESS:
16 A. Yes. 16 You can see that?
17 Q. What was his period of tenure? 17 MR. O'DONNELL:
18 A. I don't know. He left right before 18 You've got good eyes. It's an
19 Katrina. He was there for about three years. 19 "8", too. I'll --
20 Q. So from the context, it appears this 20 THE WITNESS:
21 article was published before Katrina; right? 21 Okay.
22 A. Yes. 22 MR. SMITH:
23 Q. Okay. Was this article after Ivan, 23 I wouldn't swear to it, but
24 Hurricane Ivan? 24 that's what it looks like.
25 A. Well, in the article they mention 25 EXAMINATION BY MR. O'DONNELL:
Page 401 Page 403
1 Ivan, so I assume it's after Ivan. 1 Q. There's different dates on some of

2 MR. O'DONNELL: 2 them. There's May something. September
3 Okay. Can we take a break? I 3 something.
4 think we're pretty close to finished 4 MR. SMITH:
5 here. 5 The second page looks like
6 VIDEO OPERATOR: 6 November, '82 as well.
7 Off the record. 7 EXAMINATION BY MR. O'DONNELL:
8 (Recess.) 8 Q. Okay. Anyway, you testified
9 VIDEO OPERATOR: 9 yesterday, I just want to confirm, that when a
10 On the record. 10 segment of levee construction under the LPV
11 EXAMINATION BY MR. O'DONNELL: 11 was completed, the Corps or the contractor and
12 Q. We'll mark these. We're almost 12 the Corps made an engineering record of what
13 done, Mr. Naomi. I appreciate your patience. 13 was built, and they're known as as-built
14 MR. O'DONNELL: 14 drawings?
15 What is this one? 15 A. Yes, sir.
16 MR. SMITH: 16 Q. Does this appear to be some of the
17 51. 17 as-built drawings for some aspects of the
18 MR. O'DONNELL: 18 project? You can just flip through it if you
19 Thank you. 19 want.
20 EXAMINATION BY MR. O'DONNELL: 20 A. I can't really say that these are
21 Q. I have put before you a document we 21 as-builts. They may be, but I -- I don't see
22 have marked as Number 51. It's an Army Corps 22 a wording on here saying "as-built"
23 of Engineers LPV document, hurricane 23 necessarily.
24 protection levee first enlargement. Do you 24 Q. I'm not convinced that they actually
25 see that? 25 ever say it unless somebody handwrites them
Page 402 Page 404
101 (Pages 401 to 404)

1 in. We saw that in a prior deposition. 1 an 8?

2 A. That may be so. 2 A. I think so.
3 Q. For example, there's soil borings 3 Q. -24099. Do you see that?
4 data about ten pages in. 4 A. Yes.
5 A. Yeah. 5 Q. Can you explain to me that coding
6 Q. You saw that? 6 system?
7 A. Yeah. But that wouldn't be 7 A. Well, the -- it's a filing system
8 as-built. Those things don't change because 8 that is used to identify drawings for various
9 you built a levee. 9 projects. And I am not sure what the code --
10 Q. Could these just be design 10 how the -- what the basis of the coding system
11 documents? 11 is. It's just so that the people doing the
12 A. They could be. 12 technical documents can track how -- documents
13 Q. Okay. Anyway, they are for the 13 by project.
14 first enlargement, correct, of some portion of 14 Q. Okay. There's a date in the legend
15 the project? 15 that appears to say March, 1967. Do you see
16 A. It appears to be, yes, sir. 16 that?
17 Q. In fact, the first page actually has 17 A. Yes.
18 a box on the map showing the area that's 18 Q. There's also a little mark to the
19 discussed; right? 19 left of that that says "Note, drawing reduced
20 A. Yes. 20 to one-half of scale". Do you see that?
21 Q. The project location? You see that? 21 A. Yes. I see it.
22 A. Yes. 22 Q. Above the legend there's an
23 Q. So this looks to be a stretch that 23 "Estimate of quantities" box. Do you see
24 may be below what we have called Reach 2. Do 24 that?
25 you see that, sir? 25 A. Yes.
Page 405 Page 407
1 A. I think it's from Reach 2 down 1 Q. It says "Kind of work", it says

2 towards the area that's called Verret. 2 "Levee embankment hydraulic fill". Do you
3 Q. Verret. Okay. Great. Thank you. 3 see that?
4 Let's see what we get with this 4 A. I see that.
5 document. See if we make any progress on this 5 Q. That suggests they're using
6 as-built thing. 6 hydraulic fill?
7 MR. O'DONNELL: 7 A. That would suggest that.
8 We'll mark this as the next in 8 Q. And it says there's going to need
9 order. Thank you. 9 200 -- excuse me -- 752,000 cubic yards of
10 MR. ANDRY: 10 hydraulic fill for this phase?
11 52. 11 A. That's what it seems to say, yes.
12 EXAMINATION BY MR. O'DONNELL: 12 Q. And if you go through the document,
13 Q. I have put before you what we have 13 I think there's about eight or nine pages, --
14 marked as Exhibit 52. I am going to apologize 14 A. Uh-huh (affirmatively).
15 for both the size of the print and all of 15 Q. -- are these as-built drawings?
16 this. This came off the Internet from the 16 A. I don't know. I mean, I see
17 Corps website. 17 modification notes on here where they added
18 A. Okay. 18 things.
19 Q. 52 in the lower right corner in the 19 Q. Yes.
20 legend says it's for the LPV and says 20 A. But I don't know if those are
21 "Hurricane protection levee, first lift." Do 21 finals.
22 you see that? 22 Q. Modifications would be noted on
23 A. Yes. 23 as-builts, would they not, in your experience?
24 Q. Okay. And then it's got a file 24 A. Yes. Sure.
25 number or code and I think it's H- -- Is that 25 Q. Okay. By March of 1967 could there
Page 406 Page 408
102 (Pages 405 to 408)

1 have been a first lift for some areas? Is 1 53.

2 "first lift" the first stage? 2 EXAMINATION BY MR. O'DONNELL:
3 A. Well, a lift you can define many 3 Q. 53 is an LPV document. It's for the
4 ways, but it's the first piece of construction 4 first lift. It's got some station numbers.
5 that's done. It could have been something 5 It has a different file number. It's H- --
6 just as simple as putting a base in. 6 start again. File number H-8-24100. Again, a
7 Q. So first lift is usually whatever 7 March 1967 date.
8 the first work that's done at the site for the 8 A. Uh-huh (affirmatively).
9 levee? 9 Q. This appears to contain similar
10 A. Yeah, I would say so. Yeah. Base 10 information, although for a different section,
11 preparation or even building a whole levee, 11 as the prior exhibit. Correct, sir?
12 but not usually, not the whole levee. Usually 12 A. It appears to be, yes, sir.
13 it's just putting something like a base 13 Q. You don't know whether they're the
14 condition on. 14 final as-builts or interim as-builts or
15 Q. Let's assume you had -- You said 15 whatever they are; right?
16 yesterday five or eight feet, just the natural 16 A. I don't. They could be as-builts.
17 spoil bank -- 17 I see -- I see revisions on here.
18 A. Uh-huh (affirmatively). 18 Q. Yes.
19 Q. -- height? You see that? The first 19 A. So it's possible.
20 lift would be the first engineering 20 Q. Okay. Great. Thank you.
21 construction work done to progress towards the 21 Let me just ask you one question.
22 levee of 17 and a half feet? 22 Go to the last page. Would you, please, sir?
23 A. Right. 23 A. All right.
24 Q. Okay. So it's not inconceivable 24 Q. This says "First lift levee
25 that work could have been done by March of 25 embankment design section". Do you see that?
Page 409 Page 411
1 1967 on the first lift for one section? 1 A. Yes.

2 A. It's not inconceivable. 2 Q. That's a lateral view; right? A
3 Q. Okay. 3 side view?
4 A. I mean to say it's not inconceivable 4 A. Yes, a cross section.
5 the work could have been started. Not 5 Q. Can you tell me what height they
6 necessarily finished. Because the date on the 6 were building it to in this first lift?
7 drawing is March of '67, which would indicate 7 A. Give me a minute. It depends on
8 the date the contract might have been awarded 8 where it was.
9 or thereabouts. 9 Q. Okay. Can you give me just some
10 Q. Got it. May not be the date as of 10 milestones?
11 the -- 11 A. It looks like some stations were
12 A. Right. It may not be completed 12 constructed, like station 594 plus zero zero
13 date, but it's the date that -- probably 13 to 622 plus zero zero, that elevation was
14 around the date the contract started or a 14 constructed to 14.5.
15 little bit before. 15 Q. Okay. What page are you on in the
16 Q. Great. Thank you. 16 document?
17 I hate to do this to you, but 17 A. The last page.
18 you're going to be the vehicle for me to mark 18 Q. Okay.
19 a bunch of these and then I'll be finished 19 MR. SMITH:
20 with you. Okay, sir? 20 It's in the tabulations, the
21 A. I understand. 21 elevations.
22 Q. I want you to know there's going to 22 THE WITNESS:
23 be an end to this torment. 23 The tabulation of elevations.
24 A. I understand. 24 EXAMINATION BY MR. O'DONNELL:
25 MR. ANDRY: 25 Q. Oh, great. Thank you very much.
Page 410 Page 412
103 (Pages 409 to 412)

1 Tabulation of elevations. Great. 1 Q. Thank you.

2 A. So the elevations varied depending 2 MR. ANDRY:
3 on location, and there must have been a reason 3 54.
4 for that. 4 EXAMINATION BY MR. O'DONNELL:
5 Q. Let's take the first one you 5 Q. This is 54. Exhibit 54 is another
6 mentioned, 14.5. Do you see that? 6 one of these Corps documents. This is for the
7 A. Yes. 7 first lift for another area. This has a file
8 Q. That's elevation A. And then 8 number H-8-24350. And this work appears to be
9 there's an elevation B, 10.0, next to it. Do 9 up closer to the Bayou Bienvenu control
10 you see that? 10 structure. Right, sir?
11 A. Yes. If you look at the end of the 11 A. It appears that way, yes, sir.
12 cross section to the right? 12 Q. If you go to the last page that you
13 Q. Yes. 13 were kind enough to find for me on the last
14 A. You see there's a notation, 14 document, --
15 "Elevation B", that is like a retention dike. 15 A. The last page?
16 Q. Ah. 16 Q. I'm looking for the summary of
17 A. And that was used to hold back the 17 elevations. I don't seem to find it. Do you
18 material. And so it was at the lower 18 see it?
19 elevation. So this is like they're putting in 19 A. No, I don't. There was no similar
20 a major base. Looks like a base lift to hold 20 summary table on this one.
21 the levee when it gets constructed. 21 Q. Right. Can you tell what the design
22 Q. And there's a notation up in the map 22 grade was for this?
23 of "settlement grade". Do you see that? 23 A. The cross section on -- the cross
24 A. Up in the map? 24 section shows 12 feet.
25 Q. "Settlement gauge". I'm sorry. 25 Q. 12 feet. Okay.
Page 413 Page 415
1 Right in the middle. Right here 1 MR. O'DONNELL:

2 (indicating). Settlement gauge (indicating). 2 Mark this next.
3 A. Yes. 3 MR. ANDRY:
4 Q. What's a settlement gauge? 4 55.
5 A. It's a mechanical device that's 5 (Whereupon a discussion was held
6 installed during construction and it helps to 6 off the record.)
7 monitor settlement as you construct, so you 7 EXAMINATION BY MR. O'DONNELL:
8 can determine how much fill you placed and 8 Q. We're on Exhibit 55. Now, it's
9 what settlement you're experiencing during 9 another one of these drawings. This is for --
10 construction. 10 looks like it's a first lift. It says St.
11 Q. Got it. Now, with the first lift to 11 Bernard Parish. This file number is
12 14 and a half feet, it's anticipated by the 12 H-8-24937. This has a date in the left,
13 designers that there'd be some settlement, 13 April, 1970.
14 right, after that? 14 A. Uh-huh (affirmatively).
15 A. I would assume so, yes. 15 Q. The area depicted on the first page
16 Q. And then when they go into the 16 of Exhibit 55 looks like it's right adjacent
17 second lift, it might be only 12 feet, 11? 17 to Lake Borgne, does it not, sir?
18 A. There would probably be a lot of 18 A. It's -- It appears to be the area
19 settlement in this initial lift. 19 that's downstream or somewhat southerly of
20 Q. Issue lift. And then they have to 20 Bayou Dupre structure.
21 build on top of that; right? 21 Q. Right. Exactly. Just below it,
22 A. That's correct. 22 right?
23 Q. It would take three or four lifts to 23 A. Yes.
24 get to design grade? 24 Q. Let's see if you can just give me
25 A. I would imagine so, yes. 25 the cross -- what the grade level was for this
Page 414 Page 416
104 (Pages 413 to 416)

1 first lift. 1 Q. Phase 1, elevation 14.0

2 A. There's a tabulation on this one. 2 (indicating)?
3 Q. Does it vary? 3 A. Yes, I see that.
4 A. Yes. It looks like it varies. It's 4 Q. On this page, which is one, two,
5 very hard for me to make out. It looks like 5 three, four from the back on the document,
6 15, 11, some areas. It's hard to make out. 6 there's this little picture; looks like kind
7 Q. Again, not a design grade; right? 7 of a little pyramid. Do you see that?
8 Because it's a first lift? 8 A. Yes.
9 A. Oh, no, it's not a design grade. 9 Q. Is that a schematic of what the
10 Q. Okay. 10 levee design will be eventually?
11 MR. O'DONNELL: 11 A. Actually, no.
12 56? 12 Q. Okay. What is it then?
13 MR. ANDRY: 13 A. You see at -- It's very faint. But
14 56. 14 near to the right of the top of the pyramid --
15 EXAMINATION BY MR. O'DONNELL: 15 Q. Yes.
16 Q. I have marked another one of these 16 A. -- you see "20 inch and 24 inch Toca
17 types of drawings Exhibit 56. This is another 17 to Franklinton line"?
18 first lift for St. Bernard, May, 1970. File 18 Q. I do, yes.
19 number H-8-25204. This area is a little 19 A. That refers to probably a gas
20 further south down the MRGO, correct, sir, in 20 pipeline.
21 Reach 2? 21 Q. Oh, okay.
22 A. Well, it actually extends from the 22 A. And so that gas pipeline was being
23 MRGO inland to the Verret area. 23 constructed to that elevation in anticipation
24 Q. Ah. Is that where the turn is? 24 of the future levee.
25 A. Yes. 25 Q. In fact, it tells us the Creole
Page 417 Page 419
1 MR. O'DONNELL: 1 pipeline is going to be relocated. Okay.

2 57? 2 A. See. And all of these pipelines,
3 EXAMINATION BY MR. O'DONNELL: 3 the way I understand it and --
4 Q. 57 is another one of these 4 Q. I got it.
5 drawings. This is for certain stations in St. 5 A. That they were constructed in
6 Bernard Parish. The date looks like April, 6 advance of construction.
7 1972. The file number is H-8-25894. This is 7 Q. Got you. And they had to move them
8 along Reach 2, sir? 8 before they could put in a levee.
9 A. Yes. 9 A. Correct.
10 Q. Between Dupre and Bienvenu control 10 Q. Thank you. Remember, I was an
11 structures? 11 English major.
12 A. It appears it's in that area, yes. 12 A. You're doing all right.
13 Q. Thank you. Can you tell me what the 13 Q. I take that in as high praise.
14 elevations are? 14 MR. O'DONNELL:
15 A. It shows several sections here, so I 15 Okay. The next one?
16 am really not sure. It's section AA, section 16 MR. ANDRY:
17 BB, there's design section. There's a 17 58.
18 pipeline cross section. 18 EXAMINATION BY MR. O'DONNELL:
19 Q. I see somewhere it says phase 1 19 Q. 58 is another one of these drawings
20 elevation, 14.0. Do you see that? 20 for the hurricane protection project. This is
21 A. What page are you on, sir? 21 a second lift, dated April, looks like 1976.
22 Q. The one with the little mound. 22 This file number is H-8-27036. This is again
23 A. Yes. You at the top? 23 another specific stretch of the Reach 2 MRGO,
24 Q. No, right here, sir (indicating). 24 sir?
25 A. Oh, there. 25 A. It starts from Reach 2 and goes down
Page 418 Page 420
105 (Pages 417 to 420)

1 towards Verret. 1 crosses I am looking at appears to be 18.

2 Q. Towards Verret. Okay. 2 Q. I see that. Page 2? Design grade
3 MR. O'DONNELL: 3 elevation right here?
4 This is 59? 4 A. Page 5 is what I am looking at.
5 MR. SMITH: 5 Q. But also on page 2 it says 18.
6 Yes, it is. 6 A. Yeah.
7 EXAMINATION BY MR. O'DONNELL: 7 Q. So if I wanted to know whether an
8 Q. 59 is another one of these 8 enlargement comes after a lift, if I could
9 drawings. This is for the first enlargement. 9 find the predecessor drawings for how they got
10 Date is April, 19 -- It beats me. Can you 10 to whatever grade they were before they got to
11 read that? It's in the '70s. 11 18, I might be able to answer that; right?
12 A. There's a couple of pages back, 12 Does that make sense?
13 looked like it might be '78. 13 A. Well, the line here says "existing
14 Q. I agree with you. And the file 14 ground".
15 number is H-8-28274. 15 Q. Ah.
16 A. Uh-huh (affirmatively). 16 A. The faint line below that.
17 Q. This is again part of Reach 2, sir? 17 Q. Oh, yeah.
18 A. Yes. 18 A. That shows what it was prior
19 Q. Okay. And now by 1978, at least the 19 contract.
20 date of this -- these drawings, what was the 20 Q. And that looks like it's about how
21 elevation of this, or elevations that were 21 high? It varies.
22 seeking here in the first enlargement? 22 A. Well, it varies.
23 MR. SMITH: 23 Q. It varies from above 15 feet to
24 I'm sorry, Pierce. Just for 24 almost to 10 feet.
25 clarification, did you say this is 25 A. Right.
Page 421 Page 423
1 part of Reach 2 or Reach 1? 1 Q. Okay. So they were increasing

2 MR. O'DONNELL: 2 whatever it was, whatever spot along this
3 It's Reach 2. 3 cross section to 18 feet?
4 MR. SMITH: 4 A. Right.
5 Okay. 5 Q. Again anticipating settlement, we
6 MR. O'DONNELL: 6 still wouldn't get to 17 and a half feet of
7 If I misspoke, I'm sorry. 7 design grade after settlement?
8 EXAMINATION BY MR. O'DONNELL: 8 A. Probably not.
9 Q. Does a first enlargement come after 9 MR. O'DONNELL:
10 a first lift? 10 What number is next?
11 A. Well, it's terminology and, you 11 MR. ANDRY:
12 know, you can -- Enlargements, lifts, I -- 12 60.
13 It's just terminology. It's just another 13 EXAMINATION BY MR. O'DONNELL:
14 contract. It may be they -- It could be all 14 Q. Okay. We're almost done.
15 we're doing is enlarging the levee, but not 15 Sir, I put before you another one
16 necessarily raising it. I don't know. I 16 of these drawings for the project. It's again
17 would have to really get familiar with these. 17 -- Let's see. This is -- It's a stretch of
18 Q. I hear you. Enlargement, for 18 Reach 2.
19 example, could be widening the base? 19 A. Yes.
20 A. It could be. Or doing other things 20 Q. Below Bienvenu going towards Dupre.
21 related to the project. And your question -- 21 Do you see that?
22 Q. Just curious if you could see what 22 A. Yes.
23 the design grade was. 23 Q. And the date on this is July, 1980.
24 A. It looks like the design grade in 24 A. Yes.
25 this particular location is -- one of the 25 Q. File is H-8-28796. And this is a
Page 422 Page 424
106 (Pages 421 to 424)

1 first enlargement for this stretch. And if we 1 enlargement along a certain stretch of the
2 look at page 2, we can again see that the 2 MRGO. There's a line -- an arrow that says
3 existing was somewhere between 10 and 15 feet 3 "Location of work" which is up towards the
4 depending on the spot; right? 4 Bayou Bienvenu control structure; right, sir?
6 Q. And then they were going to take it 6 Q. And if we look at -- Do you know
7 up to 18 feet? 7 what the -- If you go to the third -- the
8 A. That's -- That's right. 8 fourth page -- First of all, the date on this
9 Q. Okay. 9 is May, 1986. I think it's '86.
10 MR. O'DONNELL: 10 A. It says -- The third page says '85.
11 What's this? 11 Q. You're correct. It's '85. I
12 MR. ANDRY: 12 misspoke. If you go to the third page, --
13 61. 13 A. The third.
14 EXAMINATION BY MR. O'DONNELL: 14 Q. -- you see that the design grade for
15 Q. Number 61. 61 are more drawings. 15 this section is now 20.5?
16 This date is much earlier -- November, 1982 it 16 A. Yes.
17 looks like. The caption -- If you look at the 17 Q. And the existing appears to be
18 second page it's easier to read. It's the 18 somewhere between maybe a foot to a foot and a
19 Bayou Bienvenu to Bayou Dupre levee closure. 19 half to two feet below that?
20 Do you see that? 20 A. It's very hard to say. I can't
21 A. Yes. 21 really see the marks on the scale.
22 Q. What was the levee -- What was the 22 Q. I don't see a scale either.
23 levee closure? 23 A. It's there, but it's all blurred
24 A. I don't know. 24 out.
25 Q. If you look at the second page -- 25 Q. We don't know what the scale is
Page 425 Page 427
1 A. I -- No. No. 1 here.

2 Q. Does that tell you anything? 2 A. No.
3 A. I think what this was, was the 3 Q. Okay. The goal was to get to design
4 original water courses of Bayou Bienvenu and 4 grade of 20.5?
5 Bayou Dupre that were originally open. At 5 A. Well, the design grade of 20.5, yes,
6 that point apparently the new structures were 6 that was -- that's where the contractor was
7 in place so they could go back and close off 7 supposed to leave it. Yes.
8 those old openings. 8 Q. But with settlement, was it
9 Q. I see. 9 anticipated that it would get down to at least
10 A. And I think that's what this is 10 the 17 and a half?
11 about. 11 A. I don't know what the anticipation
12 Q. Okay. So this wasn't so much 12 was at this level when they constructed this.
13 raising the design grade of the levees as 13 It's trying to get to that ultimate goal.
14 doing the other things you mentioned? 14 Q. Right. Just see if I have anything
15 A. Right. Just going to those 15 else.
16 locations and filling in the old water 16 MR. O'DONNELL:
17 courses. That's what it appears to be. 17 Mark this as the next.
18 Q. One more and then we're done. 18 MR. ANDRY:
19 MR. ANDRY: 19 That would be 64 -- 63. Right?
20 62. 20 MR. O'DONNELL:
21 MR. O'DONNELL: 21 Yes.
22 Thank you. 22 EXAMINATION BY MR. O'DONNELL:
23 EXAMINATION BY MR. O'DONNELL: 23 Q. I have put before you what's been
24 Q. We've got Number 62. Another one of 24 marked as Exhibit Number 63. It's a printout
25 these drawings. This is for the levee second 25 which has your name on it. Do you have a
Page 426 Page 428
107 (Pages 425 to 428)

1 website or have you participated in the 1 dried up so that we can't raise them,"
2 creation of this information? 2 unquote. You said something like that?
3 A. No. I have never seen this before. 3 A. Probably so.
4 Q. In the middle it says "Al Naomi was 4 Q. Okay. The next entry, April, 2005,
5 a participant or observer in the following 5 a Popular Science article. You remember that
6 events." Do you see that? 6 article, don't you?
7 A. Okay. 7 A. I do recall it, yes.
8 Q. Do you know where this comes from? 8 Q. Okay. It quotes a John Hall of the
9 A. I don't know where they got it, no. 9 Army Corps. Who was John Hall in April, 2005?
10 I mean, I'm sure this comes from some 10 A. He was in our Public Affairs Office.
11 documents that were online or something. 11 Q. So he was the authorized spokesman
12 Q. Well, they may have collected it by 12 for the Corps?
13 doing a word search for your name. 13 A. Yes.
14 A. It's possible. That's probable. 14 Q. It says, quote, "John Hall of U.S.
15 Q. Okay. 15 Army Corps of Engineers, similarly calls the
16 A. Well, I see references to Sheila 16 city, quote, 'The most vulnerable major city
17 Grissett, which is a Times-Picayune reporter. 17 to hurricanes.'," unquote. Was that your view
18 Q. A Times-Picayune reporter? 18 as well in April, 2005?
19 A. Yes. 19 A. Pretty much, yes.
20 Q. On the second page, the June, 2004 20 Q. The next entry is a June, 2005 entry
21 entry, do you see that? 21 with multiple sources down in the bottom,
22 A. Yes. 22 Roberts, Bunch and Ivans. Do you see that?
23 Q. "Army Corps of Engineers begs local 23 A. Yes.
24 agency for funds to fix levee"? 24 Q. And it's discussing the 2006 budget
25 A. Yes. 25 for your New Orleans flood control projects
Page 429 Page 431
1 Q. And the citation is Bunch. Do you 1 suffered drastic reductions. Did that happen
2 know who Bunch is, that reporter? 2 in 2005?
3 A. I really don't know, sir. 3 A. Yes.
4 Q. How about Vidal? 4 Q. It says "The House of
5 A. No, I don't. 5 Representatives proposes the steepest
6 Q. Okay. It says "Al Naomi of the U.S. 6 reduction in hurricane and flood control
7 Army Corps of Engineers Project Manager --" 7 funding for New Orleans in history, 71.2
8 You were the Project Manager in '04; correct, 8 million or 21 percent." Was that about what
9 sir? 9 it was then?
10 A. That's correct. 10 A. I remember the number. I don't
11 Q. Quote, "Begs," unquote, the East 11 remember how they came up with that. It
12 Jefferson Levee Authority for $2 million to 12 covered not just this project, but many other
13 fund necessary levee repairs that Washington 13 projects.
14 has refused to fund." I'm going to ask you if 14 Q. It says "The cut would be the
15 you remember saying this or something to this 15 largest single year spending cut ever incurred
16 effect. Quote, "The system is in great shape, 16 by the New Orleans District."
17 but the levees are sinking. Everything is 17 A. Yes.
18 sinking. If we don't get the money fast 18 Q. Is that true?
19 enough to raise them, then we can't stay ahead 19 A. That's correct.
20 of the settlement, he says." Do you remember 20 Q. "As a result of the expected cut,
21 saying something like that? 21 the local Corps office postpones a study
22 A. Yes. 22 seeking to determine ways to protect the
23 Q. Then the further quote is, quote, 23 region from a Category 5 hurricane." That's
24 "The problem that we have isn't that the 24 your feasibility study; right?
25 levee is low, but that the Federal funds have 25 A. That's correct.
Page 430 Page 432
108 (Pages 429 to 432)

1 Q. "Additionally imposes a hiring 1 TESTIMONY BY

2 freeze and is unable to start any new jobs or 2 NANCY JEAN POWELL,
3 award any new contracts." Did that happen in 3 3412 Massachusetts Avenue, Kenner, Louisiana
4 June of '05 or thereabouts? 4 70065, after having been duly sworn by the
5 A. That's correct. 5 before-mentioned court reporter, did testify
6 Q. Then it quotes you as the 6 as follows:
7 following. Is this true? Did you say this, 7 VIDEO OPERATOR:
8 sir? Quote, "I have been here over 30 years 8 We're on the record. This is
9 and have never seen this level of reduction." 9 November 15, 2007 and the video
10 A. I said that. 10 deposition of Nancy Powell.
11 Q. "I think part of the problem is that 11 EXAMINATION BY MR. O'DONNELL:
12 it's not so much the reduction, it's the 12 Q. Good morning.
13 drastic reduction in one fiscal year. It's 13 MR. O'DONNELL:
14 the immediacy of the reduction I think that is 14 Just to be correct, this is not
15 the hardest thing to adapt to," unquote. Did 15 the deposition of Nancy Powell. It's
16 you say that? 16 a continuation of the Army Corps 30
17 A. Yes. 17 (b)(6) deposition.
18 MR. O'DONNELL: 18 MR. SMITH:
19 I want to thank you for your time 19 In the Robinson matter.
20 and your forthrightness, and I 20 MR. O'DONNELL:
21 appreciate it very much. 21 In the Robinson matter.
22 MR. O'DONNELL: 22 EXAMINATION BY MR. O'DONNELL:
23 No problem. 23 Q. Good morning. How are you?
24 MR. O'DONNELL: 24 A. I'm doing fine.
25 Good luck on your work. 25 Q. Good. I'm Pierce O'Donnell and I am
Page 433 Page 435
1 THE WITNESS: 1 one of the lawyers for the Plaintiffs in the

2 Thank you. 2 case known as Robinson versus United States.
3 VIDEO OPERATOR: 3 Are you generally familiar with that lawsuit?
4 We're off the record. 4 A. Generally, yes.
5 (Recess.) 5 Q. Okay. And I am here to ask you some
6 6 questions because I was told that you were the
7 {REPORTER'S NOTE: REMAINDER OF THIS 7 person I could ask some questions to and get
8 PAGE INTENTIONALLY LEFT BLANK.} 8 somewhat of an authoritative answer. I am
9 9 just going to ask you really about one general
10 10 category, and that has to do with the Coastal
11 11 Engineering Manual. Is that an area you know
12 12 something about?
13 13 A. I am familiar fame with the
14 14 document, yes.
15 15 Q. Let me do the normal preliminaries.
16 16 How are you employed?
17 17 A. I'm employed by the U.S. Army Corps
18 18 of Engineers.
19 19 Q. And what's your position?
20 20 A. I am the Chief of the Hydraulics and
21 21 Hydrologic Branch.
22 22 Q. What's hydraulics and what's
23 23 hydrologic?
24 24 A. Hydrologic, it's the study of
25 25 hydrology, which deals with the volume of
Page 434 Page 436
109 (Pages 433 to 436)

1 water. 1 assigned. I'm not responsible for the

2 Q. Okay. And hydraulics? Is that -- 2 day-to-day management of that work, but of the
3 A. Hydraulics deals with the movement 3 -- more the big picture, step back and look
4 of water. 4 at, you know, the allocation of resources and
5 Q. And what's your academic background? 5 make sure that our resources are trained and
6 A. I have a Bachelor's of Science in 6 able to perform the work.
7 civil engineering from Virginia Tech and a 7 Q. Is flood protection part of the work
8 Master's of Science in civil engineering from 8 that you advise on?
9 Tulane. 9 A. Flood protection, yes.
10 Q. Any specialties? 10 Q. How about the Lake Pontchartrain and
11 A. Hydraulics and hydrology. 11 Vicinity Hurricane Protection Project; have
12 Q. Okay. Great. When did you start 12 you worked on that over the years?
13 working for the Army Corps? 13 A. Not over the years. Since 2005.
14 A. April, 1979. 14 Q. Since Katrina?
15 Q. Here in New Orleans? 15 A. Yes.
16 A. Yes. 16 Q. And what generally are you doing
17 Q. Have you spent your entire 17 post-Katrina with regard to flood protection
18 professional career in the Corps in the New 18 in greater New Orleans?
19 Orleans District? 19 A. Again, I am managing the work effort
20 A. With the exception of some 20 that my staff is performing with the design
21 developmental assignments, yes. 21 elevations for the fourth supplemental
22 Q. What is your current position or 22 appropriation.
23 title? 23 Q. And there's an effort underway, as I
24 A. My current position is Chief of the 24 understand it, by the Corps to first restore
25 Hydrologic and Hydraulics -- 25 levees to their pre-Katrina grade level or
Page 437 Page 439
1 Q. And -- 1 their authorized or designed grade level?

2 A. -- Branch. 2 A. For the, what we call the
3 Q. Branch. Which is in -- Who do you 3 pre-Katrina authorized elevations, yes.
4 report to? 4 Q. And there's also --
5 A. I report to the Chief of Engineering 5 A. And that's the third supplement.
6 Division. 6 Q. Third supplement. And there's a
7 Q. Got it. Okay. And what are your 7 fourth supplement?
8 day-to-day responsibilities as Chief of the 8 A. Correct.
9 Hydraulics and Hydrologic Branch? What are 9 Q. And what's that entail?
10 your responsibilities? 10 A. That is in -- to -- in -- to build
11 A. I'm responsible for supervising the 11 to 100 year level protection.
12 employees of the branch. 12 Q. That's the one the Corps is charting
13 Q. Tell me kind the activities you're 13 for 2011 completion?
14 involved in. 14 A. That is correct.
15 A. The activities I'm involved in every 15 Q. So you're involved in both of those?
16 day? 16 A. Yes.
17 Q. A sampling, yes. 17 Q. Prior to Katrina had you been
18 A. A sampling? Outside of lawsuits? 18 involved at all in levees, flood levees?
19 Q. Okay. Hopefully that doesn't take 19 A. Riverene levees, but not hurricane
20 up too much of your time. 20 protection levees.
21 A. I make sure we have the proper 21 Q. So not what we call the LPV for
22 guidance to perform work. That we have 22 short?
23 quality control plans. That we -- That we 23 A. That is correct. Not Lake
24 have a schedule and a budget for the work that 24 Pontchartrain and Vicinity.
25 we need to perform. That the work is 25 Q. And Vicinity. Okay. I'm just going
Page 438 Page 440
110 (Pages 437 to 440)

1 to try to get a sense of what you do and then 1 where the GIWW MRGO gate is going to be
2 I'm going to go to the manuals. Okay? 2 constructed, and that location has not yet
3 A. Okay. 3 been determined.
4 Q. So you're advising your office, and 4 Q. Let's just go a little further
5 the people, the engineers that work for you 5 south, because that has a special
6 are advising with regard to the planning, 6 circumstance.
7 design and construction of pre-Katrina work; 7 A. Uh-huh (affirmatively.)
8 correct? To get to the third supplement? To 8 Q. Let's take, you know, a couple of
9 get levees to their original design grade 9 miles south of there. Is there a general
10 pre-Katrina? 10 approximate goal for design grade for the 100
11 A. The hydraulic aspects of that 11 year plan?
12 effort, yes. 12 A. Correct.
13 Q. Okay. And the hydraulic aspects is 13 Q. What is it?
14 the movement of water? 14 A. It's going to be somewhere -- It
15 A. Correct. 15 depends on the actual slope of the levee
16 Q. Okay. And what particular kinds of 16 also. But it's going to be somewhere in the
17 things do you advise on? 17 vicinity of 26, 27 feet.
18 A. We're looking at the -- setting the 18 Q. That's after settlement?
19 height of the levee, looking at waves, and the 19 A. It could be higher or lower.
20 need for a wave berm on the levee. 20 Q. But that's an approximation. But
21 Q. Are you doing modeling or have 21 that's significantly higher than the
22 contractors doing modeling? 22 pre-Katrina design grade level of about 17 and
23 A. We have contractors and a team 23 a half feet; right?
24 performing modeling. 24 A. It is higher, yes.
25 Q. This includes wave run-up 25 Q. Okay. So it's some nine to ten feet
Page 441 Page 443
1 calculations or estimations? 1 higher, approximately?

2 A. My staff is performing the wave 2 A. That is correct.
3 run-up calculations. 3 Q. And will it vary as we go further
4 Q. Okay. Fine. And has it been 4 southwest along Reach 2? Or is that pretty
5 determined what the 100 year design grade 5 much an approximation of that, at least to the
6 level will be along Reach 2 of the MRGO? 6 Bayou Dupre control structure, say?
7 A. Our office is responsible for 7 A. I'd say that's an approximation.
8 developing the preliminary design elevation. 8 Q. Okay. How about from Bayou Dupre to
9 The ultimate final design elevation will be 9 the Verret turn, where the yellow line --
10 determined. There's other involvements with 10 A. You're in here, right (indicating)?
11 like the geotechnical folks. 11 Q. Yes, ma'am.
12 Q. I understand that. What is the 12 A. Between the Dupre and the Violet?
13 current preliminary planning for the design 13 Q. Yes. Yes.
14 grade for Reach 2 for the 100 year goal? 14 A. Yeah, I would use those numbers for
15 A. Can you define Reach 2 for me, 15 that area.
16 please? 16 Q. All right. Fine. And this is a 100
17 Q. Let's take close to the Bienvenu -- 17 year storm approximation?
18 Bayou Bienvenu control structure. Up in that 18 A. No.
19 area there. 19 Q. Okay. What is the 26 to 27 feet?
20 A. Can I -- 20 A. That is the design elevation that
21 Q. Yes, you may. 21 provides protection for 100 years.
22 A. You're talking about right in here 22 Q. Okay. Fine. So the 100 year
23 (indicating). 23 estimation projects that you would not have
24 Q. Yes, sir. Yes, ma'am. 24 surge and wave run-up that exceeded 26 or 27
25 A. Okay. That's going to depend on 25 feet?
Page 442 Page 444
111 (Pages 441 to 444)

1 A. There will be storms that will 1 Q. It was built to a Standard Project

2 exceed that. And I don't think I answered 2 Hurricane dimension; right?
3 your question. 3 A. The design hurricane for Lake
4 Q. No. 4 Pontchartrain and Vicinity is the Standard
5 A. Can you -- 5 Project Hurricane.
6 Q. But I think it's inherent in the 100 6 Q. That is not what's being used now
7 year definition, right, what a 100 year -- Let 7 for the 2011 goal; correct?
8 me back up. 8 A. That is correct.
9 A. Yes. 9 Q. The hurricane that's being used now
10 Q. In the fourth supplement, what event 10 is more severe in terms of surge elevation?
11 are you planning to protect Reach 2 against? 11 A. There is no one hurricane being used
12 What kind of a storm? 12 for design. It's the 100 year surge
13 A. It's the 100 year surge elevation. 13 elevation.
14 Q. 100 year surge elevation. 14 Q. This synthetic hurricane you have
15 A. It does not relate exactly to one 15 created or you hypothesized or modeled,
16 particular storm. It could be several 16 whatever, is, in terms of surge elevation,
17 different storms that would result in that 17 generates higher surge than the Standard
18 same surge elevation in those same waves. 18 Project Hurricane would have?
19 Q. Is the 100 year surge elevation 19 A. We modeled 152 storms. Some of them
20 based on calculation of historical data? Past 20 had surge higher than the surge used in the
21 storms and what we know about past storms? 21 design, the pre-Katrina design, and some of
22 A. The method that's being used today 22 them have lower surge elevations.
23 is a joint probability method that is based on 23 Q. Okay. Let me ask you about --
24 synthetic storms, but it uses a model that is 24 MR. O'DONNELL:
25 calibrated to historical storms. 25 I want to mark the exhibit.
Page 445 Page 447
1 Q. Have we had historical storms in the 1 EXAMINATION BY MR. O'DONNELL:

2 region of Reach 2 where we know that the surge 2 Q. In your work do you work with a
3 elevation exceeded 26 or 27 feet? 3 document, a Corps document known as the
4 A. That we know? No. We don't know. 4 Coastal Engineering Manual?
5 Q. Okay. You're not aware of any that 5 A. Yes.
6 have reached that height? 6 Q. Okay. And what is the Coastal
7 A. There's no record that I am aware 7 Engineering Manual?
8 of. 8 A. It's an engineering manual that the
9 Q. And our records only go back to the 9 Corps of Engineers and others can use as
10 latter part of the nineteenth century, as I 10 guidance in design of coastal features.
11 understand it? 11 Q. Okay. And is the current version
12 A. The -- I would say the records I 12 the 30 April 2002 version?
13 have seen go back to maybe 1900. 13 A. I don't believe that's the current
14 Q. 1900. Okay. Great. Did you have 14 version.
15 any involvement with the IPET report? 15 Q. Okay. Do you know what the current
16 A. Yes. 16 version is?
17 Q. I am not going to ask you details. 17 A. I believe there was an update either
18 Just generally, what was it? 18 in 2005 or 2006 in some of the chapters.
19 A. I prepared portions of the report 19 Q. Okay. In terms of the issue date of
20 that described the hurricane protection system 20 the -- I'll back up. I think we have marked
21 and the hydraulic design that was performed 21 --
22 for that system. 22 MR. O'DONNELL:
23 Q. Is that the Standard Project 23 Did we mark it as Number 6?
24 Hurricane? 24 MR. SMITH:
25 A. That -- 25 I'm not sure. I think we did
Page 446 Page 448
112 (Pages 445 to 448)

1 mark it, though. 1 A. There's some similarities, but there

2 MR. O'DONNELL: 2 are a great bit of differences, yes.
3 I think I marked it in Walter's 3 Q. Sufficiently different that the
4 deposition. I marked the table of 4 coastal -- there's a Coastal Engineering
5 contents. 5 Manual, and then if you're familiar with it,
6 MR. SMITH: 6 there's a Construction Design Manual for
7 Here's 6. This is my copy. You 7 levees? Are you aware of the levee manual?
8 can use it. 8 A. I'm aware of the levee manual, yes.
9 MR. O'DONNELL: 9 Q. And the levee manual is more
10 That's it. May we use that? 10 appropriate -- is not generally used for
11 MR. SMITH: 11 coastal engineering?
12 Yes. It's my copy. 12 A. Hydraulic engineers would not
13 MR. O'DONNELL: 13 normally use the manual that you're referring
14 Great. Super. 14 to because it's not a hydraulic or a coastal
15 EXAMINATION BY MR. O'DONNELL: 15 manual. It's -- It's for others to use.
16 Q. I put before you what we marked for 16 Q. Okay. Now, if you're designing
17 the U.S. 702-C deposition as Exhibit Number 17 flood protection works out in Lake Borgne,
18 6. Do you see that? 18 would you use the Coastal Engineering Manual?
19 A. Uh-huh (affirmatively). Yes. 19 A. For the coastal engineering
20 Q. Okay. And I think we got this off 20 hydraulic aspects of it, you would consult
21 the Corps website. It's available, is it 21 this manual, yes.
22 not? Is the manual available on the Corps 22 Q. Okay. Let's go to Reach 2 of the
23 website, to your knowledge? 23 MRGO. That is a tidal channel;, correct, the
24 A. The Corps website from Headquarters, 24 MRGO? Tide comes up and down from the Gulf of
25 yes. 25 Mexico?
Page 449 Page 451
1 Q. Yes. But I understand that volume 6 1 A. Yes, you can say that.
2 is not available on the Corps website. Are 2 Q. Okay. And it has access to the Gulf
3 you familiar with that at all? 3 of Mexico; right?
4 A. No. 4 A. That is correct.
5 Q. This is dated 30 April, 2002, is it 5 Q. And it's adjacent to an inlet of the
6 not? 6 Gulf of Mexico called Lake Borgne?
7 A. That is correct. 7 A. Yes, that is correct.
8 Q. And it has the number EM1110-2-1100; 8 Q. Okay. Is there any aspect of the
9 correct? 9 Coastal Engineering Manual that is appropriate
10 A. That is correct. 10 for use in the design and construction of
11 Q. And what is the purpose of the 11 flood protection works along Reach 2?
12 Coastal Engineering Manual? 12 A. There's portions of the Coastal
13 A. It's to provide a technical coastal 13 Engineering Manual that deal with waves, so
14 engineering document. 14 that would be an appropriate for use.
15 Q. Okay. What's coastal engineering? 15 Q. Great. Let's go a couple of pages
16 A. Coastal engineering is the 16 in to the table of contents. What I have
17 engineering that is performed in a coastal 17 marked as Exhibit Number 6 is the preliminary
18 area, as distinguished from hydraulic 18 pages that accompany the manual and then I
19 engineering that might be more in a riverene 19 have the table of contents because the
20 area. It's to distinguish coastal processes 20 document is so voluminous.
21 that could occur during floods and other types 21 A. Uh-huh (affirmatively). Yes.
22 of events. 22 Q. By the way, I understand that this
23 Q. The hydraulic and hydrologic 23 manual is used as a text in universities for
24 dynamics of a river are different than that of 24 engineering. Is that correct?
25 a coastal area? 25 A. I would not know.
Page 450 Page 452
113 (Pages 449 to 452)

1 Q. Well, I was just curious because 1 different? Is there more run-up or less
2 they're talking about ancient world, pre-Roman 2 run-up with a regular or irregular wave?
3 times. Interesting. 3 A. It's going to depend on the ground
4 Show me the section, would you, in 4 or the levee that the wave is running up.
5 the table of contents where we would find 5 Q. For example, its slope?
6 waves? Ah, how about 2-1-2, regular waves? 6 A. Its slope, it's -- the material it's
7 A. Yes. 7 made out of. But as I understand, and I am by
8 Q. Chapter 1 is wave water mechanics. 8 no means an expert, an irregular wave can give
9 Is that one area that might be helpful for 9 you a greater run-up.
10 people that are designing and constructing 10 Q. Okay. And, therefore, it would be
11 levees along the MRGO Reach 2? 11 helpful to know these differences in
12 A. It would be helpful, yes. 12 theoretical calculations in doing your design
13 Q. Okay. In what sense would it be 13 if you're the engineering people?
14 helpful? 14 A. Yes.
15 A. There's a lot of background theory 15 Q. Okay. Great. What else besides
16 in this section, particularly distinguishing 16 waves in the Coastal Engineering Manual might
17 between regular waves and irregular waves. 17 be helpful to designers of flood protection
18 Q. Can you tell me the difference? I'm 18 works along Reach 2 of the MRGO?
19 going to give you a caveat. I was an English 19 A. See what they call it in here.
20 major. But can you tell me the difference 20 Q. How about wave hindcasting and
21 between a regular wave and an irregular wave? 21 forecasting; would that be something that
22 A. My understanding based on my -- It's 22 would be important as well?
23 two years experience with this work. A 23 A. Yes.
24 regular wave, the -- the wave height and wave 24 Q. Okay. How about chapter 3?
25 period are uniform. 25 Anything about estimating near shore waves?
Page 453 Page 455
1 Q. It's okay. You're on camera. You 1 A. Yes, you would need to know about
2 can do that. Go ahead. 2 near shore waves.
3 A. You forget. I forget. The wave 3 Q. And I am sorry to have to ask this,
4 height and wave period are uniform. It does 4 but what are near shore waves? I know I am
5 not vary. 5 boring you.
6 An irregular wave, you will see 6 A. Well, it's a good question.
7 one wave might be a little bit bigger than the 7 Q. Well, I caught somebody yawning.
8 next wave and the period might be a little bit 8 But I hope it wasn't me. I know it wasn't
9 shorter, a little bit different. It's not 9 you.
10 uniform. 10 Can you tell me what a near shore
11 Q. During a hurricane with surge like 11 wave is and why you might want to take that
12 Katrina, do we have regular waves, irregular 12 into consideration?
13 waves, or both? 13 A. As I understand the definition, near
14 A. You can have both. 14 shore waves are waves that are going to be in
15 Q. You can have both. Okay. And why 15 your shallow environs.
16 is it important to differentiate when you're 16 Q. Go ahead.
17 planning for a regular wave versus an 17 A. For example, Lake Borgne and the
18 irregular wave? What is it about the dynamics 18 wetlands would be considered a shallow
19 or properties of one versus the other that 19 environs as opposed to the Gulf of Mexico,
20 would affect the way you design? 20 which would be offshore waves, which would be
21 A. It's my understanding, again based 21 the bigger waves.
22 on my limited experience, that the run-up 22 Q. And they might have different
23 would be different from a regular wave as 23 properties as a near shore wave as opposed to
24 opposed to an irregular wave. 24 something out in the Gulf?
25 Q. Just in one sentence, how are they 25 A. That is correct.
Page 454 Page 456
114 (Pages 453 to 456)

1 Q. Might they have more destructive 1 Q. This is the tide coming up the
2 potential, less destructive potential? 2 channel from the Gulf you're talking about?
3 A. I don't know. 3 A. This is just general tides. There's
4 Q. All right. Let's move to chapter 4 4 tides everywhere. There's tides in Lake
5 then if we could. Surge zone hydro -- 5 Borgne.
6 hydrodynamics. 6 Q. Oh, of course. Okay.
7 A. Uh-huh (affirmatively). 7 Now, I take it storm surge, 2-5-5,
8 Q. Sounds like something my son would 8 would be important information?
9 like. But is there anything relevant to what 9 A. That is correct.
10 we're talking about here in this part of the 10 Q. Okay. We deal with tropical storms
11 manual? 11 here?
12 A. There would likely be some aspects 12 A. We deal with -- My office deals with
13 of this part of the manual that you would want 13 tropical and extratropical storms.
14 to consider, because the waves do break 14 Q. What's an extratropical storm?
15 depending on what the wave sees again as the 15 A. It's a storm that occurs outside of
16 topography. And there's mention here about 16 the tropical season. The storm may be caused
17 the incipient wave breaking. The waves -- 17 by like a northeaster. It's not a tropical
18 Q. Right. 18 storm.
19 A. -- as they run up the shore. If 19 Q. Right. Okay. Anything else in
20 you're at the beach, you see the wave breaking 20 chapter 5?
21 and continuing to run up and you see that 21 A. Datums.
22 white water; that's a wave breaking. And you 22 Q. Okay. What are datums?
23 can have that on your marsh and up your levee. 23 A. Datums is what you use to measure
24 Q. Okay. And given the small amount of 24 height and elevation.
25 land, if any, that existed at the time of 25 Q. What's the current datum that's used
Page 457 Page 459
1 Katrina between Lake Borgne and the MRGO and 1 today?

2 the fact that, I think it's just not disputed, 2 A. NAVD-88 2004.65 is presently being
3 a lot of the marsh land was no longer alive or 3 used.
4 functioning, you would expect, though, wave -- 4 Q. When was the 1929 NGVD datum
5 waves to hit the MRGO Reach 2, would you not, 5 abandoned for something else?
6 during a storm? 6 A. I would have to ask abandoned by
7 A. I would expect waves to propagate 7 whom?
8 into the -- into that area, yes. 8 Q. No longer used conventionally by
9 Q. And, in fact, that happened during 9 people like yourself, scientists, engineers.
10 Katrina, did it not? 10 Was it replaced at some point as the standard
11 A. Uh-huh (affirmatively). 11 reference for elevation?
12 Q. Okay. Great. 12 A. It's my understanding that it has
13 A. Yes. 13 been replaced, yes.
14 Q. I know. Thank you. 14 Q. Do you remember when?
15 Then we have chapter 5, water 15 A. I would assume late '80s, early
16 levels and long waves. Would there be 16 '90s.
17 information in here that would be useful to a 17 Q. Okay. Anything else in chapter 5
18 planner for the Reach 2 levees? 18 before we move on?
19 A. Yes. 19 A. The numerical modeling of long wave
20 Q. What in particular? 20 dynamics, hydrodynamics.
21 A. The tides. Understanding the -- the 21 Q. Okay. And why is that important?
22 astronomical tides. The variability of the 22 A. Pull that section up.
23 tide during high -- you know, during the 23 Q. I don't have the whole document.
24 hurricane season versus maybe another time of 24 A. Oh, you don't have the whole
25 the year. 25 document. Sorry.
Page 458 Page 460
115 (Pages 457 to 460)

1 Q. No, we just in the table of 1 is probably more toward dredging and beach
2 contents. It's multi volumes. 2 fill and scour protection --
3 But you think long wave 3 Q. Right.
4 hydrodynamics would be important? 4 A. -- and sediment transport, so --
5 A. There's different types of waves in 5 Q. Okay. Let's move on. Chapter 2 of
6 addition to irregular and regular waves. 6 part 3, long shore sediment transport. Is
7 There's long waves and short waves. And long 7 that pertinent at all?
8 waves have a different response and a 8 A. I would say not in the design of the
9 different run-up as opposed to short waves. 9 levee or the height.
10 Q. Okay. Great. Chapter 6, 10 Q. Fine.
11 hydrodynamics of tidal inlets? Is that 11 A. But pertinent to the -- possibly
12 pertinent here? 12 pertinent to the area.
13 A. I am not familiar with that 13 Q. But not to design of the levee?
14 section. 14 A. Right.
15 Q. Okay. Let's go to chapter 7, harbor 15 Q. That's my focus, is designing the
16 hydrodynamics. We're not dealing with a 16 levees along Reach 2.
17 harbor here. 17 Chapter 3, cross shore sediment
18 A. I'm not familiar with that section. 18 transport processes. Anything in there?
19 Q. Chapter 8 is hydrodynamic analysis 19 A. No.
20 and design conditions. Anything in there that 20 Q. Chapter 4, wind-blown sediment
21 seems pertinent to the planning process for 21 transport?
22 designing of these levees along Reach 2 of the 22 A. No.
23 MRGO? 23 Q. 5, erosion transport and deposition
24 A. Some of the processes that are 24 of cohesive sediments?
25 documented here might be applicable. Some of 25 A. No.
Page 461 Page 463
1 them may not be. 1 Q. Okay. 6, sediment transport outside

2 Q. Under section 2-8-6? 2 the surf zone.
3 A. I am not that familiar with this 3 A. I would say not.
4 section of the report, so -- 4 Q. Okay. Would you like to just take
5 Q. Do you think there might be 5 your time and flip through and see if you find
6 something in there that might be pertinent? 6 anything else so I don't have to keep asking
7 A. Yes. 7 you? I feel like I'm rude here.
8 Q. Okay. Great. How about the next 8 A. That's okay. Here's a -- To make
9 section, interdependence or processes during 9 note, this chapter is dated 2006.
10 severe events, 2-8-7? 10 Q. Part 4?
11 A. I'd have to look at the actual 11 A. Yeah.
12 section. 12 Q. June 1 to the -- So there's been
13 Q. Okay. 13 some updates. Thank you.
14 A. This may be a section that could 14 A. That shows an update.
15 have been rewritten. 15 Q. Right. That's part 4. Let's go
16 Q. Okay. I'm going to move along 16 through part 4. You can flip through and
17 here. The next -- We're in part 3 now. And 17 pause at any chapter you think there might be
18 just tell -- I am going to mention a chapter 18 some contents pertinent to any reach of the
19 and tell me if you think there might be 19 levees.
20 anything in here that might be pertinent for 20 A. Well, chapter 1 is always good to no
21 planning or design purposes for the levees 21 because it does define your terms.
22 along Reach 2. 22 Q. Okay. Yes. I learned that
23 Chapter 1, coastal sediment 23 yesterday.
24 properties. 24 A. Chapter 2, I would say not.
25 A. Based on the table of contents, this 25 Q. Okay.
Page 462 Page 464
116 (Pages 461 to 464)

1 A. Chapter 3, I would -- 1 Q. Which breaks the waves?

2 Q. I'm curious. What are coastal 2 A. Which breaks the waves.
3 morphodynamics? You guys have the best 3 Q. Right. Great. Under 5-3-2, there's
4 words. Greek and Latin. What's a 4 "Coastal armoring structures" and one is
5 morphodynamic? 5 seawalls and dikes. Do you see that?
6 A. It's probably the shape of the 6 A. Uh-huh (affirmatively).
7 coastline. 7 Q. Would that might be pertinent here?
8 Q. Okay. 8 A. That might be pertinent, yes.
9 A. And also the shape of the bottom of 9 Q. What's a dike?
10 the -- I guess you'd call it a pre-beach. 10 A. That's a levee.
11 Q. I know what you mean. 11 Q. Okay. Chapter 4, beach fill
12 Part 5? Again, it was change 1 on 12 design. I think we can skip that; right?
13 June 1, 2006 it says. 13 A. Yes.
14 A. Yeah. This would be. Portions of 14 Q. 5, navigation projects? Is there
15 this would be particular. 15 anything in here?
16 Q. Yes. Chapter 1 is the planning and 16 A. As a hydraulic engineer I would look
17 design process. And you said part of this 17 at this section also because of the navigation
18 would be pertinent? 18 of the MRGO in the vicinity of that levee.
19 A. Some of this may not be pertinent 19 Q. Right. 6, 7, management of inlets?
20 because it's -- it may be more in line with 20 No? Right?
21 what you would do in a feasibility phase as 21 A. Uh-huh (affirmatively).
22 opposed to a design phase. 22 Q. Coastal engineering for
23 Q. Sure. 23 environmental enhancement. Is there anything
24 A. But certainly it could be looked 24 in here that would be pertinent in terms of
25 at. 25 safety? I am not asking about environmental.
Page 465 Page 467
1 Q. Go ahead. I'm sorry. 1 I think we can skip this.

2 A. Chapter 2, portions in here might be 2 A. Okay.
3 -- might be considered. 3 Q. Okay. Okay. Part 6 now is also
4 Q. On site characterization? 4 dated 1 June, 2006. Chapter 1, introduction
5 A. Uh-huh (affirmatively). 5 to coastal project element design. Anything
6 Q. Okay. 3? Why don't you look at, 6 in here that might be pertinent?
7 under "Introduction", B, "Alternates for shore 7 A. Yes.
8 protections, things -- overview, armoring, 8 Q. Okay. Do you know one in
9 beach stabilization. Would any of that be 9 particular?
10 pertinent here? 10 A. I would be looking at the sea
11 A. I'd have to actually read the 11 dikes.
12 chapters to see its context. It may just be 12 Q. 6-2-2?
13 referring to beach protection. 13 A. Uh-huh (affirmatively).
14 Q. Okay. 14 Q. Okay.
15 A. More so than a levee. 15 A. And storm surge barriers depending
16 Q. Although armoring is a feature of 16 on what type of barrier that is.
17 levee, is it not, sometimes? 17 Q. Okay. Chapter 3, site specific
18 A. Armoring can be a feature of levees, 18 design conditions? Anything in there?
19 yes. 19 A. There might be some background
20 Q. What's the value of armoring? 20 information that a coastal hydraulic engineer
21 A. Armoring will provide you protection 21 could use in regards to geotechnical. But
22 when your design parameters are exceeded. It 22 maybe not.
23 also can allow you to lower your design 23 Q. Okay. Let's go to chapter 4,
24 elevations because you don't need as much 24 materials -- materials and construction
25 run-up because you have a rough slope. 25 aspects. Is there information in here that
Page 466 Page 468
117 (Pages 465 to 468)

1 would be pertinent to what we're talking about 1 protection. Do you see that?
2 in terms of designing levees along Reach 2? 2 A. Uh-huh (affirmatively).
3 A. I am not familiar with this 3 Q. Is that important?
4 section. 4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Okay. 5 Q. And why is it important to try to
6 A. What I see here is you have got 6 protect against or minimize scouring?
7 rubble mound structures, rip-rap structures. 7 A. To maintain integrity of the
8 They sound more like the structures you would 8 structure.
9 see at a beach. 9 Q. Scouring, does it occur on the
10 Q. Okay. Rip-rap can be used for 10 foreshore side, the protected side, or can it
11 levees, can it not? 11 occur on both?
12 A. Rip-rap can be used to -- 12 A. On both.
13 Q. For armoring? 13 Q. Okay. But significant scouring can
14 A. For armoring, yes. 14 lead to instability of the structure; right?
15 Q. Great. Let's move then to -- I see 15 Erosion?
16 there's a section on use of wood. I don't 16 A. Uh-huh (affirmatively).
17 think that's pertinent, is it? 17 Q. Yes.
18 A. No. 18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Chapter 5 of part 6 of this manual 19 Q. Chapter 6 is reliability based
20 is -- deals with the subject of fundamentals 20 design of coastal structures. Do you see
21 of design. 21 that? Is there anything in there that might
22 A. Uh-huh (affirmatively). 22 be pertinent?
23 Q. Do you see anything in there that 23 A. I am not that familiar with this
24 would be pertinent? 24 section.
25 A. The wave run-up and run-down. 25 Q. Fine. Okay. Great. Now, prior to
Page 469 Page 471
1 Q. I see that. Yes. How about wave 1 -- Thank you very much for going through
2 overtopping of structures? 2 that.
3 A. Yeah, that whole -- that whole 3 Prior to the issuance of Exhibit 6
4 section I would look at. 4 in April 30, 2002, what was the Corps's
5 Q. That would be important, wouldn't 5 guidance on coastal engineering? What
6 it? 6 document?
7 A. Yes. 7 A. There were several documents that
8 Q. How about wave reflection and wave 8 pre-date that 2002 document, one of which was
9 transmission? 9 the 1984 Shore Protection Manual.
10 A. Yes. 10 Q. Okay.
11 Q. Okay. And there's rubble mound 11 A. Another would be the Shore
12 structure loading and response, including 12 Protection Manual I believe of 1977.
13 armor layer stability. Would that be 13 Q. Is there one in '74 as well?
14 important? 14 A. I'm not sure.
15 A. It could be important if we had a 15 Q. Are you familiar with a document
16 separate foreshore dike or a separate 16 that was a predecessor to the Shore Protection
17 breakwater. 17 Manual known as Shore Protection Planning and
18 Q. Got it. Okay. We didn't have that 18 Design, TR-4 manual issued in 1954?
19 for Reach 2, did we, I don't think? 19 A. I am familiar with a subsequent
20 A. I am not aware. 20 TR-4, yes but not the 1954 document.
21 Q. Okay. Almost there. Oh, look if 21 Q. Okay. What TR-4 are you familiar
22 you would at 5-5 -- I'm sorry. 22 with?
23 A. 6-5-4? 23 A. Where's my -- I think it's 1966.
24 Q. Actually, 6-5-6. It's on the next 24 Q. Okay. Great. Where would I get a
25 page. The bottom. Scour and scour 25 copy of that?
Page 470 Page 472
118 (Pages 469 to 472)

1 A. It's my understanding we provided 1 already been changes, for example, in 2006.

2 that to our Office of Counsel and that's 2 A. That is correct.
3 available to you all. 3 Q. Okay. So sometimes, instead of
4 Q. Okay. Great. 4 issuing wholesale a new manual, various parts
5 MR. O'DONNELL: 5 or sections are updated as reflected, for
6 Robin, I don't know if it's been 6 example, by a different date?
7 produced. I couldn't find it for the 7 A. Yes. Or the whole manual can be
8 depo. Could you just send it to me? 8 reissued.
9 MR. SMITH: 9 Q. Or the manual can be reissued.
10 Yes. 10 Okay. So it may very well be that portions of
11 MR. O'DONNELL: 11 the Coastal Engineering Manual, Exhibit 6,
12 All right. Great. In fact, I am 12 existed in different forms either in a Shore
13 happy to deem it marked as the next 13 Protection Manual, maybe in a TR-4, and the
14 exhibit and then you can provide it to 14 only way we're going to know is by looking at
15 the Reporter or me. I don't care. 15 it; right? But it's possible?
16 MR. SMITH: 16 A. It's possible, yes.
17 Okay. We're talking about the '66 17 Q. All right. Do you know whether the
18 version? 18 TR-4 manual was used at all by the Corps
19 MR. O'DONNELL: 19 planners in designing and constructing Reach 2
20 Yes. TR-4, '66. 20 of the MRGO?
21 MR. SMITH: 21 A. It was, yes.
22 Okay. 22 Q. It was? Okay. And who used it? Do
23 MR. O'DONNELL: 23 you know?
24 What would the next number be? 24 A. The New Orleans District. I could
25 MR. ANDRY: 25 not tell you who it was, because it was back
Page 473 Page 475
1 64. 1 in the '50s and '60s.

2 MR. O'DONNELL: 2 Q. And what information do you have
3 Okay. So we'll deem this marked 3 that tells you that it was in fact used?
4 as Exhibit 64. And I appreciate 4 A. DM-1.
5 that. Okay? 5 Q. Design Manual number 1?
6 EXAMINATION BY MR. O'DONNELL: 6 A. Refers to some documents that was --
7 Q. So in 1966 -- Do you know what the 7 that are now -- Pardon my verb tense.
8 next iteration of the TR-4 was? 8 Q. That's okay?
9 A. I don't. No. 9 A. That can be also references in TR-4.
10 Q. My understanding of these manuals 10 Q. So there's Design Manual number 1
11 like Levee Design and Construction and Coastal 11 for the MRGO? Are you referring to MRGO or --
12 Engineering is that the next manual or 12 A. I am referring to the --
13 handbook builds on the wisdom of the prior and 13 Q. -- to the levees?
14 then any new information that the Corps 14 A. -- the Lake Pontchartrain and
15 experience or science has brought to bear. Is 15 Vicinity Hurricane Protection System.
16 that fair to say? That these are evolutionary 16 Q. Okay. Design Memo number 1
17 documents? 17 references documents or information that were
18 A. That's a fair statement to make, 18 --
19 yes. 19 A. Are also contained as references in
20 Q. In fact, we saw -- I'm sorry. 20 TR-4.
21 Is that a fair statement? 21 Q. Great. So apparently the designers
22 A. Uh-huh (affirmatively). 22 were aware of TR-4; right?
23 Q. In fact, we saw in Exhibit 6, which 23 A. They were aware of the studies that
24 was the 30 April 2002 Coastal Engineering 24 were documented in TR-4. I am not sure if
25 Manual for Engineering Design that there had 25 they were actually aware of TR-4. It's not
Page 474 Page 476
119 (Pages 473 to 476)

1 listed in the DM as a reference. 1 A. The joint probability model that

2 Q. So they may have very well looked at 2 we're presently using is -- The model itself
3 studies that are also referenced in the TR-4, 3 is calibrated to historical storms, but all
4 but you don't know whether in fact they used 4 the storms that are run to create your set to
5 TR-4 as any guidance in planning or designing 5 do your probability on are all synthetic.
6 Reach 2 of the MRGO -- 6 Q. Okay. But part of that synthetic,
7 A. I do not know. 7 the creation of synthetic was based on
8 Q. -- levees? 8 historical data?
9 A. I do not know. 9 A. Right.
10 Q. You don't know? Okay. 10 Q. Okay.
11 Do you know who the author of DM 11 A. The meteorologists and engineers
12 number 1 was? Which Corps official or 12 look at the historical data to define the
13 officials? Back in the '60s? Authored DM-1? 13 synthetic data set.
14 A. It's a New Orleans District 14 Q. Are you aware of an entity known as
15 document. I would not know any further than 15 the Beach Erosion Board, or once known as the
16 that. 16 Beach --
17 Q. Okay. You wouldn't know which 17 A. Once known as the Beach Erosion
18 employees, for example, worked on it? 18 Board, yes.
19 A. No. 19 Q. What was the Beach Erosion Board?
20 Q. Okay. Do you know whether any 20 A. It's my understanding it was a board
21 changes were made to Exhibit 6, the Coastal 21 similar to the Coastal Engineering Research
22 Engineering Manual, as a result of Hurricane 22 Board that we have today, that was -- to
23 Betsy? And any lessons learned by the Corps 23 provide oversight to the State of the coastal
24 or information gleaned from Betsy? I'm sorry, 24 engineering -- engineering and science as it
25 withdrawn. Hurricane Katrina. I know you -- 25 exists today. A board that we could go to to
Page 477 Page 479
1 You want me to restate the question? 1 ask for guidance and information on how to
2 A. Yes. 2 help solve problems.
3 Q. Do you know whether any changes were 3 Q. Did that have non-Corps people on
4 made in Exhibit 6, the Coastal Engineering 4 it?
5 Manual, originally issued on April 30, 2002, 5 A. I am not aware of the make-up of the
6 as a result of Hurricane Katrina? 6 board.
7 A. I have no -- I'm sorry. I am not 7 Q. When was it abolished or
8 aware of any changes that have been made to 8 discontinued?
9 the publication itself. There's going to be 9 A. I am not aware of when it was --
10 some changes in some of the methodologies 10 Like I said, it's -- it changed into what was
11 listed in the Coastal Engineering Manual as a 11 called the Coastal Engineering Research Board.
12 result of our change in modeling approach of 12 Q. Does that group still exist?
13 hurricanes. 13 A. That group still exists.
14 Q. Okay. The change you mentioned to 14 Q. And still serves a similar function?
15 me earlier? 15 A. I assume it -- I assume it has a
16 A. Well, we're doing the joint 16 similar function, yes.
17 probability method of surge modeling in lieu 17 Q. Is the Coastal Engineering Research
18 of the empirical simulation technique that's 18 Board involved at all in the Corps'
19 listed in the Coastal Engineering Manual. 19 post-Katrina flood protection planning?
20 Q. What's the joint probability model? 20 A. I don't know.
21 How does it differ from the empirical? 21 Q. Okay. Did the Corps have at one
22 A. The empirical simulation technique 22 time a research facility with respect to
23 runs a suite of historical storms that is 23 hydraulics and hydro -- hydrology? Did the
24 supplemented by some synthetic storms. 24 Corps once have a research facility?
25 Q. And the joint probability model? 25 A. Yes.
Page 478 Page 480
120 (Pages 477 to 480)

1 Q. A research program? Where was it? 1 you see in a coastal process that you would
2 A. The hydraulics and hydrology was up 2 account for.
3 at Vicksburg, Mississippi at Waterways 3 Q. It's different, right, the way --
4 Experiment Station, which is now known as 4 A. It's different.
5 ERDC, Engineering Research and Development 5 Q. And affects how you design and
6 Center. 6 construct your flood protection works?
7 Q. So it still exists, but under a 7 A. It affects the hydraulics and how I
8 different name or is it -- 8 -- how we approach it from a hydraulic
9 A. It still exists under a different 9 perspective. I can't speak to anything
10 name. 10 besides my area of expertise.
11 Q. What does it do? 11 Q. Your hydraulics and hydrologic work
12 A. The ERDC -- 12 influences, for example, the grade level,
13 Q. Whatever it's called now. 13 design grade level of a structure, flood
14 A. That's what we call it. 14 structure; correct?
15 Q. ERDC. Okay. 15 A. That is correct.
16 A. ERDC. 16 Q. And may also influence the slope?
17 Q. Go ahead. Thank you. 17 A. That is correct.
18 A. It's an engineering research center 18 Q. May influence the materials used?
19 that covers a wide variety of hydraulic, 19 A. We will make recommendations, yes.
20 hydrologic, coastal, geotechnical research, 20 Q. And whether there is any armoring on
21 even computer research. They also do top 21 the front or the back of the levee? Your
22 secret things for the Army. 22 disciplines have --
23 Q. For the Army? They're doing work 23 A. Uh-huh (affirmatively).
24 for the Army? 24 Q. -- information that designers need to
25 A. They do work for the Army, yes. 25 take into account with regard to all of these
Page 481 Page 483
1 Q. Okay. I understand that. 1 things; correct?

2 A. And the Corps of Engineers. 2 A. Yes, that is correct.
3 Q. Do they do surge modeling? 3 (Whereupon a discussion was held
4 A. ERDC does surge modeling, yes. 4 off the record.)
5 Q. Are they working with you at all on 5 MR. O'DONNELL:
6 your post-Katrina planning? 6 I want to thank you. Thanks for
7 A. Yes. 7 coming over. We're done.
8 Q. Do they issue publications? 8 THE WITNESS:
9 A. Yes. 9 Thank you.
10 Q. Are they available on the Internet? 10 (Whereupon a discussion was held
11 A. Some. I don't know if all of them 11 off the record.)
12 are available on the Internet. 12 (Recess.)
13 Q. In your field, do you recognize any 13
14 difference between flood protection, on the 14 {REPORTER'S NOTE: REMAINDER OF THIS
15 one hand, and hurricane or storm flood 15 PAGE INTENTIONALLY LEFT BLANK.}
16 protection on the other? 16
17 A. There's differences in the 17
18 methodologies. 18
19 Q. Methodologies of? 19
20 A. Of computing your design water 20
21 levels, for example. Normally when I -- as I 21
22 define flood protection, also I look at it 22
23 from a riverene perspective. 23
24 Q. Right. 24
25 A. So I don't see the wave climate that 25
Page 482 Page 484
121 (Pages 481 to 484)

1 VIDEO OPERATOR: 1 EXAMINATION BY MR. O'DONNELL:

2 On the record. November 15th, 2 Q. You're a civil engineer here in the
3 2007. 3 New Orleans District of the Army Corps?
4 Would the Court Reporter swear in 4 A. Yes, sir.
5 the witness, please. 5 Q. How long have you been a Corps
6 TESTIMONY BY 6 employee?
7 KEITH JOSEPH O'CAIN, 7 A. I was hired full time in 1980.
8 43 Oak Alley Boulevard, Marrero, Louisiana 8 Q. And what's your educational
9 70072, after having been duly sworn by the 9 background?
10 before-mentioned court reporter, did testify 10 A. B.S. in civil engineering,
11 as follows: 11 University of New Orleans.
12 EXAMINATION BY MR. O'DONNELL: 12 Q. All right. Any specialization?
13 Q. Good morning, sir. 13 A. Civil engineering.
14 A. Good morning. 14 Q. Okay. You're licensed in civil
15 Q. My name is Pierce O'Donnell and I am 15 engineering?
16 one of the lawyers for the Plaintiffs in a 16 A. No, sir, I'm not.
17 case called Robinson versus United States. 17 Q. What is your current area of
18 Are you generally familiar with that lawsuit? 18 activity or responsibility with the Corps?
19 A. Yes, sir. 19 A. Currently I'm the team leader of the
20 Q. Okay. Have you read the Complaint? 20 Waterways Unit Civil Branch Engineering
21 A. Yes, sir. 21 Division.
22 Q. Okay. And I'm here today to ask you 22 Q. And what does the Waterway Branch --
23 questions with regard to spoil bank along 23 excuse me, the Waterways Unit do?
24 Reach 2 and Reach 1 of the MRGO. Are you 24 A. We are responsible for preparation
25 aware of that? 25 of the plan specs for maintenance dredging of
Page 485 Page 487
1 A. Yes, sir. 1 the authorized navigation channels within the

2 Q. Okay. Great. And I am going to do 2 District.
3 a quick bio of you and then I am going to ask 3 Q. Okay. What are the general
4 some questions about spoil banks and then get 4 boundaries of the New Orleans District?
5 you on your way. Okay? 5 A. From the Sabine River to basically
6 A. Certainly. 6 the outer limits of the MRGO, to the other
7 Q. I appreciate you accommodating me. 7 side.
8 How are you employed? 8 Q. How many waterways are you
9 A. I'm a civil engineer with the 9 responsible to?
10 Engineering Division of the New Orleans 10 A. An exact number or --
11 District Corps of Engineers. 11 Q. Within 100, within 10. Ballpark
12 MR. O'DONNELL: 12 figure.
13 We'll go off the record for one 13 A. We can go through across the coast,
14 moment. 14 Calcasieu, Fresh Water, Mermentau, Houma,
15 VIDEO OPERATOR: 15 Southwest Pass, Baptiste Colette, a couple of
16 Off the record. 16 dozen I would say.
17 MR. SMITH: 17 Q. MRGO is one of them?
18 Just stay on the record. It's 18 A. Yes, sir.
19 okay. 19 Q. Okay. And how long have you been
20 MR. O'DONNELL: 20 working on waterways?
21 You sure it's okay? 21 A. I moved to waterways in 1998.
22 EXAMINATION BY MR. O'DONNELL: 22 Q. Okay. Did you ever have anything to
23 Q. He doesn't care about your bio. 23 do with flood protection in terms of levee
24 VIDEO OPERATOR: 24 design, construction, maintenance or
25 On the record. 25 operation?
Page 486 Page 488
122 (Pages 485 to 488)

1 A. I'm sorry? 1 you can step to that map and just point to it?
2 Q. Levees, have you ever worked on 2 A. Yes, sir. Fronting -- Fronting the
3 levees? 3 levee system from mile 66 to 47.
4 A. No, sir. 4 Q. And that's basically between Bayou
5 Q. You're not a levee guy; you're a 5 Bienvenu down to the Verret turn?
6 waterway guy? 6 A. Immediately above Bienvenu down to
7 A. Waterway guy. 7 the Verret turn, yes, sir.
8 Q. And have you always worked on 8 Q. Okay. And when was this activity?
9 waterways? 9 A. Within the last year.
10 A. No, sir. I started my career in the 10 Q. Since Katrina?
11 Channel Stabilization Unit. 11 A. Yes, sir.
12 Q. What do they do? 12 Q. And is this the large stones and
13 A. Channel stabilization is basically 13 rocks that are being put along the banks?
14 the articulated concrete matting of the 14 A. Along -- yes, that's correct.
15 Mississippi and Atchafalaya Rivers. Extreme 15 Q. Is it on the foreshore side?
16 bank protection. 16 A. On the foreshore side, yes, sir.
17 Q. Got it. To guard against erosion; 17 Q. That would be the northeast side --
18 right? 18 the Lake Borgne side?
19 A. That's correct. 19 A. Immediately along the MRGO
20 Q. Or retard erosion; right? 20 shoreline.
21 A. And prevent meandering of the 21 Q. Has all -- All along the shoreline?
22 riverine system, yes. 22 A. Yes.
23 (Whereupon a discussion was held 23 Q. I'm sorry. This is a bank
24 off the record.) 24 stabilization measure?
25 MR. O'DONNELL: 25 A. That's correct.
Page 489 Page 491
1 He thinks he can stop the 1 Q. Okay. I'm sorry. And what kind of
2 Mississippi from meandering. 2 rock are you using?
3 EXAMINATION BY MR. O'DONNELL: 3 A. It's limestone, top size 200 --
4 Q. Is that what you said? 4 2,200 pounds.
5 A. We try, sir. 5 Q. Per rock, give or take?
6 Q. That's the saying; right? 6 A. Correct.
7 A. Yes, sir. 7 Q. Okay. And has that been put all
8 Q. And before channel stabilization, 8 along the MRGO from mile 43 to mile 60? I may
9 did you do anything -- 9 have gotten the miles wrong, but --.
10 A. I came on in channel stabilization. 10 A. Prior to this activity, it was
11 Q. So you were channel stabilization 11 already existing. This was just a repair job.
12 until 1998 when you started doing waterway 12 Q. A repair. Okay. Great. And does
13 dredging? 13 that help stabilize the bank, the rock?
14 A. That's correct. 14 A. Yes, sir.
15 Q. And since '98 you have been doing 15 Q. Okay. You may sit down. Thank you
16 waterway dredging? 16 for telling me that.
17 A. That's correct. 17 A. Certainly.
18 Q. Okay. Fine. Were you involved at 18 Q. Dredging, the MRGO, until it was --
19 all in channel stabilization for the M R G O, 19 I am not saying it's closed, but until -- up
20 what I call MRGO? 20 to Katrina, needed periodic dredging; right?
21 A. No, sir, not to any great extent. 21 A. Yes, sir.
22 One particular contract, we did a maintenance 22 Q. What is it about the properties of
23 lift on the foreshore protection just 23 the MRGO that needed -- Why did it need
24 recently. 24 dredging?
25 Q. Can you tell me where that was? And 25 A. The entire channel? It was just a
Page 490 Page 492
123 (Pages 489 to 492)

1 -- it's a shoaling process, a natural 1 Q. All right. For much of the history
2 shoaling process in the open water areas. 2 of the MRGO, there were no rocks along this
3 It's open to tidal effects and continuous 3 stretch of Reach 2; correct?
4 water movement on the interior, bank erosion. 4 A. Correct.
5 Silt of the channeling. 5 Q. Describe the banks and what they're
6 Q. Okay. Let's talk about shoaling. 6 made of and their consistency that makes them
7 Is that S H O A L I N G? 7 susceptible to erosion of the dirt which then
8 A. S H O A L, yes, sir. 8 goes into the channel and then goes down to
9 Q. Okay. Shoaling. What is shoaling? 9 the bottom and then shoals. What is it about
10 A. Shoaling is the filling in of the 10 waves from ships that causes that?
11 channel with earthen material. 11 A. The ship waves, from the larger
12 Q. Where does that material come -- 12 ships can reach as high as three or four feet
13 Let's just take upper Reach 2 as it gets close 13 in height. Obviously that exerts an energy on
14 to the GIWW. Let's just take that stretch. 14 the bank line. The bank lines are basically a
15 We'll use that as our frame of reference. You 15 marsh environment with silty clay soils.
16 see where that white strip of paper is? 16 Q. Easily broken up by a wave?
17 A. Yes, sir. 17 A. Yes, sir.
18 Q. It's that area and above it. Just 18 Q. Okay. Those soils then go into
19 focus on that part of upper Reach 2. What is 19 suspension in the water and settle to the
20 it that causes shoaling in that area? 20 bottom?
21 A. The large majority of it is ship 21 A. Ultimately. They are moved around
22 waves on the bank line causing erosion of the 22 by waves and tides again and ultimately settle
23 bank line. In that reach you have an opening 23 to the bottom, yes.
24 to Lake Borgne, so there is tidal effects 24 Q. Okay. So, and as it -- Can you show
25 where -- when water comes in and out from Lake 25 me what the basic parameters are of the
Page 493 Page 495
1 Borgne. 1 channel using your hands? Does it come down

2 Q. Let's put tidal effects as a second 2 in a V and then bottom out?
3 thing I'll ask you about. Let's deal with the 3 A. Basically a profile file of the
4 ships. These are deep draft ships; right? 4 channel?
5 A. Could be. Yes. In addition to 5 Q. Yes.
6 barges, yes, sir. 6 A. As it is?
7 Q. They're barges; right? 7 Q. Can you use your hands for us?
8 A. Ships and barges. 8 A. As it is now or as constructed.
9 Q. Ships and barges. How deep is their 9 Q. As constructed.
10 draft? 10 A. As constructed, it had a 500 foot
11 A. We -- They vary. Obviously we dig 11 bottom width. One on two side slopes down to
12 to the 36 foot project, so they're allowed -- 12 minus 40 (indicating); one on two side slopes
13 Q. So it's a constant process or 13 to daylight on either side.
14 struggle over the history of the MRGO to keep 14 Q. So it was narrower on the bottom
15 it at 36 feet depth for ships; right? 15 than on the top?
17 Q. Okay. And that required an annual 17 Q. Was 500 on the bottom and 650 on the
18 dredging operation? 18 top?
19 A. Generically, yes. Annual. But it 19 A. That was the design, yes, sir.
20 was different reaches at different times. 20 Q. The design. Okay. So that's what
21 Q. Right. Okay. And so a ship coming 21 it was at least when it was first built?
22 up the banks -- This is before rocks were put 22 A. Correct.
23 in. Let's deal with the period pre-rocks. 23 Q. Okay. And over time, if you
24 Okay? 24 wouldn't mind keep your hands up for us, over
25 A. Okay. 25 time as the ships -- We'll deal with ships
Page 494 Page 496
124 (Pages 493 to 496)

1 first, tide later. As ships came through and 1 A. Yes, sir.

2 eroded the banks, your fingers would start 2 Q. And if you didn't do anything about
3 spreading out, right, along the top? 3 it, eventually deep draft ships couldn't use
4 A. To a degree they would spread out. 4 the channel?
5 In addition, this area (indicating), the major 5 A. You would lose your project
6 impacts of the waves created a shelf here so 6 dimension, yes, sir.
7 it would come up and then an underwater shelf 7 Q. Okay. Have there been times when
8 (indicating), and then higher on the sides. 8 the project dimension was so lost, to your
9 Q. So as we see the MRGO -- and it did 9 knowledge or experience, that ships could not
10 widen over time at the top; right? 10 use the MRGO?
11 A. Yes, sir. 11 A. If so, possibly immediately after a
12 Q. Okay. That would not indicate that 12 hurricane that needed cleaning out.
13 we had a consistent depth of 36 feet, but you 13 Q. Okay. But ordinarily the operation
14 had this shelving phenomenon. Correct? 14 and maintenance activities of the Corps with
15 A. That's correct. 15 regard to dredging allowed the channel to stay
16 Q. So you might have, what, three, 16 open?
17 four, five feet of water on the shelf? 17 A. That's correct.
18 A. In general, yes. 18 Q. Except for those extreme
19 Q. In general. And that tends to 19 circumstances of a hurricane?
20 extend laterally? 20 A. Yes.
21 A. Correct. 21 Q. Okay. Great. Now, you said that
22 Q. So somebody looking down from a 22 the materials along the banks that end up
23 bird's eye view would say "Man, that channel's 23 shoaling in the channel are a sandy, silty
24 gotten pretty -- has gotten wider"? 24 material? Is that right?
25 A. From an aerial view it looks much 25 A. Yes, sir.
Page 497 Page 499
1 wider than the deeper portion, yes. 1 Q. And there's also organic material?
2 Q. And in terms of encroachment on the 2 A. The top layer of the marsh platform
3 marsh land, it is eating up marsh land as it 3 is organic. Yes, sir.
4 gets wider; correct? 4 Q. Like peat moss and those kind --
5 A. Yes, it is. 5 grasses and things?
6 Q. "It" being the erosion process. 6 A. That's correct.
7 A. Correct. 7 Q. As the water moves laterally,
8 Q. Okay. And one of the effects of 8 because of the shelving, the shelves that are
9 this erosion process, as you said, is sediment 9 being created, it destroys marsh land;
10 gets into the water and eventually it 10 correct?
11 settles. Is it -- You call that silt? Is 11 A. Yes, sir.
12 that silt? 12 Q. Okay. When the MRGO was first
13 A. Shoaling. 13 constructed there was a fairly extensive
14 Q. Shoaling. Is silting and shoaling 14 amount of Tupelo cypress. Are you familiar
15 different? 15 with that? Where the MRGO was cut?
16 A. No, sir. That's a fair statement. 16 A. I am aware -- I have read that, yes.
17 Q. Okay. Shoaling is a cool word, so 17 Q. Okay. Are there any Tupelo cypress
18 I'll use it. Shoaling occurs on the bottom of 18 left in the area we're talking about, in the
19 the channel; right? 19 upper reach of the MRGO?
20 A. And in those -- in the open water 20 A. I don't know.
21 area there is shoaling. 21 Q. You can't think of any?
22 Q. In the open water area as well. 22 A. In that reach on the north bank, no,
23 A. Correct. 23 sir. The south bank, of course, is now
24 Q. Okay. So that, therefore, reduces 24 leveed. Behind the levee, I don't know.
25 the depth of the channel? 25 Q. Okay. Great. Now let's talk about
Page 498 Page 500
125 (Pages 497 to 500)

1 the dredging operation. What kind of 1 Q. Excuse me one minute. Mr. Andry is
2 equipment do you use to dredge? 2 suggesting that picture says 1,000 words.
3 A. In this particular reach? 3 A. Certainly.
4 Q. Yes, in that area we were just 4 Q. He wasn't that articulate, but I
5 speaking about. Yes. 5 think that's what he meant.
6 A. It is a cutterhead dredge. 6 MR. ANDRY:
7 Q. A cutterhead dredge. I have heard 7 I'm trying.
8 that term before. What is a cutterhead 8 MR. O'DONNELL:
9 dredge? 9 Oh, Joe, I knew you would like
10 A. A cutterhead dredge has an actual 10 that.
11 suction pipeline that goes to the bottom with 11 We're going to mark this and I'll
12 a head on it that rotates and can cut 12 make a copy of it. Okay, Robin?
13 material. 13 Thank you.
14 Q. Like a Roto-Rooter? 14 EXAMINATION BY MR. O'DONNELL:
15 A. Basically, yes, sir. 15 Q. I have marked as Exhibit 65 a U.S.
16 Q. And it cuts into the dirt; right? 16 Army Corps of Engineers photograph which we
17 The soil, whatever? 17 got from the Corps, or from the New Orleans
18 A. Correct. 18 Public Library, one or the other, but this is
19 Q. And it then sucks it up a pipe? 19 a photo taken during the late '50s, early '60s
20 A. Sucks it up a pipe. 20 during the construction of the MRGO, and is
21 Q. With water? There's an engine 21 this -- Can you identify the kind of equipment
22 sucking it out? 22 or ship or barge that's in that photo 65?
23 A. There is a pump that sucks it out 23 A. Yes, sir. That is a cutterhead
24 and there is an additional line from the 24 dredge.
25 dredge to whatever disposal area you care to 25 Q. Okay. So the same kind of
Page 501 Page 503
1 put the material in. 1 cutterhead dredge that is used today to dredge
2 Q. So you're in the middle of the 2 the MRGO was apparently also involved in its
3 channel; right? 3 construction?
4 A. Correct. 4 A. That's correct.
5 Q. This cutterhead dredge; right? 5 Q. Okay. Great. How long have we had
6 A. Yes, sir. 6 cutterhead dredges? Do you know? Do they go
7 Q. And it's got its pipe in with its 7 back a long time?
8 roto-head and it's sucking the dirt out in 8 A. Yes, sir. I don't know the date.
9 liquid sus- -- in liquid, right, liquid 9 Q. Now, this photo shows what -- Is
10 suspension? 10 that the pipeline going in to the shore?
12 Q. And then it's shooting it over to 12 Q. And is that the spoil bank area
13 the side of the banks? 13 where it's depositing it?
14 A. By pipeline, yes, sir. 14 A. You see the pipeline coming?
15 Q. Oh, a pipeline running to the shore? 15 Q. Yes.
16 A. Yes, sir. There is a disposal 16 A. The spoil bank would be at the end
17 pipeline. 17 of the pipeline.
18 Q. Okay. And we're aware that there's 18 Q. The end of that pipeline.
19 a spoil disposal area -- 19 A. Off the photo.
20 MR. O'DONNELL: 20 Q. Off the photo. About how far off of
21 Let's mark that. Can we mark 21 the channel is the spoil bank along the Reach
22 this? 22 2 of the MRGO?
23 MR. ANDRY: 23 MR. SMITH:
24 You can use it. 24 At what time?
Page 502 Page 504
126 (Pages 501 to 504)

1 Right now. Construction. We'll 1 percent water, 20 to 30 percent solids. So it

2 start with construction. 2 flows to some degree.
3 THE WITNESS: 3 Q. Right.
4 In -- In general, there was a 4 A. Based on the photography, it looked
5 right-of-way from the middle of the 5 like they had discharge points where they
6 channel that was 750 feet away. 6 actually did move that pipeline along the
7 That's about where the beginning of 7 disposal area.
8 the spoil bank was. 8 Q. Let's mark this as 66, and I think
9 EXAMINATION BY MR. O'DONNELL: 9 you just -- you get a 10 point bonus, because
10 Q. Okay. Great. Now, the Army Corps, 10 I think that's what we're going to see.
11 before they began constructing the MRGO, I 11 I am showing you Exhibit 66, which
12 understand they acquired the right-of-way not 12 I'll represent is another Corps photograph
13 just for the waterway, but also for the spoil 13 about the construction of the MRGO. The
14 bank area? 14 pipeline there seems to be pretty long,
15 A. Yes, sir. 15 doesn't it?
16 Q. Now, what are the current dimensions 16 A. Yes, sir.
17 of the spoil bank in this upper Reach 2 area 17 Q. And does 66 depict what you
18 we're talk about? 18 described as the pipeline goes inland from the
19 A. In general, it is 4,000 feet from 19 waterway to the spoil bank area?
20 front to back. 20 A. Yes, sir, it does.
21 Q. So it's 4,000 feet wide? 21 Q. So the boil bank area would be off
22 A. Yes, sir. 22 the photo in 66 as well?
23 Q. Has it always been approximately 23 A. That is correct.
24 that width? 24 Q. Okay. Great. The cutterhead
25 A. Yes, sir. 25 dredge, can it take out stumps and tree roots
Page 505 Page 507
1 Q. Okay. So over time they built it up 1 and almost anything it encounters? Does it
2 higher, but the width stayed about the same? 2 cut it up?
3 A. Over -- Over time the -- The initial 3 A. In general. Yes, sir.
4 4,000 feet was for construction and 4 Q. Pulverizes it or --
5 maintenance. 5 A. Yes, sir.
6 Q. Got it. 6 Q. Is it sort of like a blender?
7 A. Post-construction, the maintenance 7 A. That's a decent definition, yes.
8 right-of-way was 2,000 feet. 8 Q. Okay. The spoil bank area that
9 Q. Right. 9 we're talking about, in the upper Reach 2,
10 A. From the channel. 10 when the MRGO was being constructed was
11 Q. And we're going to talk in a minute 11 designed to be 4,000 feet wide, you said,
12 about the use of the spoil bank materials for 12 originally?
13 the levees, but I haven't gotten there yet. 13 A. Correct.
14 Okay? 14 Q. Okay. Did it have containment dikes
15 The spoil bank area where this 15 on the back side?
16 pipeline deposits, does it just shoot it out 16 A. Yes, sir, it did.
17 into a mound? How do they level it out or 17 Q. How were they constructed? Or what
18 what happens from when the -- when the 18 are they made out of?
19 hydraulic fill is shot into the spoil bank 19 A. The containment dike on the back
20 area? Is it just -- they move the pipe around 20 side?
21 like a garden hose? 21 Q. Yes.
22 A. In this particular instance, from 22 A. Was made of adjacent material.
23 what I could tell from the photography -- Let 23 Outside of the disposal area it was bucket
24 me back up one second. The material coming 24 dredged into a dike formation, earthen dike.
25 out of that pipeline, it's basically 70 to 80 25 Q. Okay. Was it compacted at all?
Page 506 Page 508
127 (Pages 505 to 508)

1 A. I would think not. 1 EXAMINATION BY MR. O'DONNELL:

2 Q. Okay. And it would be a little less 2 Q. Thank you. Again, just I'll
3 porous, less water-containing material that 3 represent to you that this is a photo that we
4 makes a little wall or -- or not a little -- a 4 obtained either from the Army -- Well, it says
5 wall or earthen dike? Is that what it is? 5 "MRGO photo" so either from the Army Corps
6 A. That is its purpose. 6 the library. This says July 9, 1958. You see
7 Q. And it's supposed to contain it; 7 the date there?
8 right? 8 A. Yes, sir.
9 A. It contains it so we can pond the 9 Q. Okay. Now, this is the construction
10 water and let the material settle out that has 10 of the MRGO. Do you see that?
11 been dredged. 11 A. (Witness nods affirmatively.)
12 Q. That's what I was going to ask you. 12 Q. Can you tell me where on that
13 So eventually the water drains out of the 13 exhibit the channel is, the channel itself
14 disposal area? 14 is? Or is it going to be on either side of
15 A. Eventually the material will settle 15 the land area?
16 out of the water column. 16 A. This is from station 0 to 130, which
17 Q. Right. 17 is the GIWW reach.
18 A. There are more than likely effluent 18 Q. Yes.
19 return ditches somewhere along that back dike 19 A. It appears -- It appears that this
20 where water was allowed to flow out once it 20 is the bridge that the MRGO channel would have
21 was clear. 21 been going this way (indicating). Is that the
22 Q. You might want to go to the map, but 22 question?
23 where would the water flow into? The 23 Q. Yes. What is it depicting was my
24 wetlands? 24 first question. This is what would be called
25 A. As I read in the DM, -- 25 Reach 1 (indicating)?
Page 509 Page 511
1 Q. Yes. 1 A. Yes, sir.

2 A. -- in general, the water was allowed 2 Q. Okay. And is this the existing GIWW
3 to flow back into this back dike and then up 3 (indicating) on the upper left?
4 through the bayous that exist. 4 A. I believe it is, yes, sir.
5 Q. Okay. So it was going into whatever 5 Q. Was it going to be widened to this
6 undisturbed area there was behind the back 6 dimension here on the right (indicating)?
7 side? 7 Well, look. You can see there. Are they
8 A. That's correct. 8 widening the GIWW at that point?
9 Q. Okay. And is there a parallel canal 9 A. Yes, sir. I believe they are.
10 there? 10 Q. And that natural material we see
11 A. Where? 11 Tupelo cypress, are they not?
12 Q. A slurry canal or slurry -- 12 A. It is certainly -- It is certainly
13 A. We're speaking of this canal here 13 trees, yes, sir.
14 (indicating)? 14 Q. But there was natural marsh land and
15 Q. Yes. 15 trees in that point; right? And the dredging
16 A. That is the canal they dug in 16 removed them?
17 building that back dike, yes, sir. 17 A. That's correct.
18 Q. The back dike. Okay. That's what I 18 Q. Okay.
19 thought. 19 MR. O'DONNELL:
20 MR. O'DONNELL: 20 Let's mark this one as well.
21 Let me just mark -- In Exhibit -- 21 (Whereupon a discussion was held
22 Let's mark this as the next one if we 22 off the record.)
23 could. 67. Thank you, Robin. 23 EXAMINATION BY MR. O'DONNELL:
24 (Whereupon a discussion was held 24 Q. Okay. I have put before you -- Let
25 off the record.) 25 me just see it a second -- what's been marked,
Page 510 Page 512
128 (Pages 509 to 512)

1 sir, as Exhibit Number 68. Do you see that? 1 Q. When the Corps was designing and
2 And can you tell us what station intervals 2 constructing the MRGO, the Corps was aware
3 that is? 3 that the banks would be subject to wave wash
4 A. This says station 0 to 130 plus zero 4 and the channel subject to shoaling, was it
5 zero. 5 not?
6 Q. So it's the same perspective we just 6 A. Yes, sir.
7 saw in the prior photo? 7 Q. Okay.
8 A. Yes, it is. 8 A. Now, that was in the report.
9 Q. Okay. And do you notice that there 9 Q. And did the planners take into
10 seems to be a widening of the GIWW to 10 account that there would have to be regular
11 accommodate the MRGO? Do you see what's going 11 dredging of the MRGO because of the erosion
12 on there? 12 due to wave wash and the shoaling effect?
13 A. Yes, sir. 13 A. There was anticipated maintenance of
14 Q. Okay. And that's all live, natural 14 the channel, yes, sir.
15 flora, whatever, trees and shrubbery that's 15 Q. Okay. The Corps was also aware that
16 being removed; correct? 16 the widening of the MRGO through bank erosion
17 A. Yes, sir, it is. 17 would result in marsh loss, was it not?
18 Q. Okay. I asked you whether or not 18 A. Yes, sir.
19 you thought those were Tupelo cypress or 19 Q. Now, I want to ask you a few more
20 cypress. 20 questions about the creation of the spoil bank
21 MR. O'DONNELL: 21 area and then I am going to go the levees and
22 Let's mark the next one if I 22 we'll be done.
23 could, Robin. 23 You said that when the hydraulic
24 THE WITNESS: 24 material comes out of the cutterhead dredge
25 This one is finished? 25 pipe, we have 70 percent liquid or water and
Page 513 Page 515
1 EXAMINATION BY MR. O'DONNELL: 1 30 percent mass or -- either dirt or stumps or

2 Q. Yes. We'll just keep it in the 2 something. Not a liquid. Right?
3 pile. 3 A. Solid materials.
4 This will be 69. I have marked 4 Q. Solid materials.
5 Exhibit Number 69, which is another one of the 5 A. In general those are decent numbers.
6 photos that we have marked. 6 Q. Ballpark. That's all I needed.
7 MR. O'DONNELL: 7 And that so it goes into this
8 I'll show everybody this one. 8 4,000 foot wide disposal area, which is also
9 EXAMINATION BY MR. O'DONNELL: 9 like a settling area, right? You're expecting
10 Q. You may be familiar with this one. 10 the water to eventually drain out and the
11 I'll represent to you that -- There's a date 11 material to settle?
12 on the top. This is a dedication or, I'm 12 A. That's correct.
13 sorry, it's a ceremony with the Corps 13 Q. There's some compaction or
14 officials and dignitaries when I believe they 14 compression that's goes on; right?
15 began construction and they are detonating 15 A. And dewatering, yes, sir.
16 some dynamite. You see the explosion in the 16 Q. When the MRGO was finished, how high
17 back? 17 was the spoil bank area approximately by
18 A. Yes, sir. 18 1968? Do you know?
19 Q. Those are cypress trees, are they 19 A. I don't know.
20 not, sir? 20 Q. Okay. But there was no -- The MRGO,
21 A. Appears to be. 21 with it was first designed and constructed,
22 Q. Okay. Now, you looked at the -- you 22 didn't have any flood protection levees or
23 say you looked at the design engineering memo 23 structures, did it?
24 for the MRGO, sir? 24 A. No, sir.
25 A. Yes, sir. 25 Q. Okay. What is the nature of the
Page 514 Page 516
129 (Pages 513 to 516)

1 soil in this part of Reach 2 we're talking 1 goes through the IHNC locks, up to the GIWW,
2 about? What's its classification? 2 MRGO, takes a right turn, moves along there to
3 A. In very broad terms, silts and 3 where Reach 2 comes in, takes a right turn,
4 clays. 4 moves its way down to the Gulf of -- well, to
5 Q. Okay. 5 the Verret turn. Do you see that?
6 A. Again, like we said before, with an 6 A. Yes, sir.
7 overlaying of peat. 7 Q. Okay. As amended, that became --
8 Q. Peat. Right. And when it's all 8 and then cuts I'm sure down through back to
9 munched, mulched up by the cutterhead dredge 9 the Mississippi River. Do you see that?
10 and it's deposited in there, is it pretty 10 A. Yes, sir.
11 loose material even with the water out of it? 11 Q. That yellow perimeter, do you see
12 A. Yes, sir, it is. 12 that?
13 Q. It's not cohesive; right? 13 A. I see that.
14 A. Not initially. It will settle out 14 Q. All right. That was with the
15 and gain some strength. 15 extension that was added by the Corps after
16 Q. So the clay is cut up along with all 16 authorization, that's what was conceived to be
17 the other material and interspersed among the 17 the Lake Pontchartrain and Vicinity Hurricane
18 other fine grain soils? 18 Protection Project. Okay?
19 A. Interspersed? What -- which one -- 19 A. Yes, sir.
20 Q. Well, you end up -- We're going to 20 Q. Which we have agreed to call LPV
21 soon segue to what the material was that was 21 because there's too many words in there.
22 used to build these embankments for flood 22 Okay? So if I use LPV, you understand what I
23 protection. But the material after it settles 23 am referring to?
24 down, right, -- 24 A. Yes, I do.
25 A. Correct. 25 Q. And the designers -- Let's focus on
Page 517 Page 519
1 Q. -- is still somewhat porous; right? 1 Reach 2 if we could. Okay? The designers

2 A. Yes, sir, until it -- 2 determined what the design grade height was
3 Q. It's porous; right? 3 going to be and that they could use as borrow
4 A. Correct. 4 materials for the most part the hydraulic fill
5 Q. It's uncompacted in the spoil bank 5 in the spoil bank area. Are you familiar with
6 area? 6 that?
7 A. It is uncompacted. 7 A. Somewhat, yes.
8 Q. Okay. And it is hydraulic fill 8 Q. And so, therefore, is it your
9 material, right, that came out of the bottom 9 understanding that the materials that were
10 of the MRGO? 10 used to construct in stages, lifts, and
11 A. Yes, it is. 11 enlargements, that they built the levees along
12 Q. All right. Let's segue then to 12 Reach 2 was largely the material from the
13 Hurricane Betsy, 1965, Congress passed the 13 spoil bank deposit area?
14 Flood Control Act of 1965 and mandated that 14 A. I don't know.
15 the Army Corps construct a flood protection 15 Q. You don't anything about that?
16 system for greater New Orleans. You're 16 A. Not levees, no, sir.
17 generally familiar with that; right? 17 Q. So you don't know what use was made
18 A. In general. 18 of the spoil banks?
19 Q. I'm not going to ask you any more 19 A. After construction, no, sir.
20 questions on that. I'm just trying to set the 20 Q. I mean in terms --
21 stage. 21 A. After placement, no.
22 The Corps set out about a process 22 Q. After the spoil bank material was
23 to design and construct a flood protection 23 placed there -- Withdrawn. After the MRGO was
24 system that is -- if you look at the map, 24 constructed, there was a spoil bank area;
25 generally starts at the Mississippi River, 25 right?
Page 518 Page 520
130 (Pages 517 to 520)

1 A. Correct. 1 here is the MRGO actually was finally

2 Q. That same spoil bank area was used 2 completed in 1968. Correct?
3 during the periodic dredging of the MRGO after 3 A. Correct.
4 it opened? 4 Q. And the planning for the LPV began
5 A. The closer 2,000 feet, yes, sir. 5 in 19- -- The planning preceded the act, but
6 Q. Oh, it was 2,000 feet closer? 6 the Design Memo started being written in 1966,
7 A. It's 4,000 feet wide initially. 7 '67, et cetera. Right? So there was some
8 Q. Yes. 8 overlap there.
9 A. The MRGO side 2,000 feet was used 9 A. Yes.
10 for long-term maintenance. 10 MR. O'DONNELL:
11 Q. So initially when they cut the MRGO 11 Okay. I don't have anything
12 there through Reach 2 and they were piping the 12 further. Thank you for coming in.
13 hydraulic fill into a spoil bank area, that 13 THE WITNESS:
14 original spoil bank area was 4,000 feet wide? 14 Okay. Thank you.
16 Q. But for annual or periodic operation 16 I don't have any questions.
17 and maintenance dredging, they only used 2,000 17 MR. O'DONNELL:
18 feet to deposit it and the 2,000 feet closer 18 Great. I don't know how we can
19 to the MRGO? 19 handle it. We got three witnesses.
20 A. As per the design manual I read, 20 You want each of them to take a look
21 yes, sir. 21 at their section of the depo, or is
22 Q. Is that right? 22 the Corps going to look at it? Or --
24 Q. So over time, the original spoil 24 We'll have one or all them read
25 bank area is at one elevation and the newer 25 and sign.
Page 521 Page 523
1 part, the 2000 feet part grows higher because 1 MR. O'DONNELL:
2 it's getting the periodic dredge material 2 All right. Great. Thank you,
3 deposited on it? 3 friends.
4 A. I would think so, yes, sir. 4 * * *
5 Q. Okay. So somebody said, "Okay, 5
6 we're going to build levees" and the area 6
7 where they built it was essentially where the 7
8 newer 2,000 feet of spoil was; correct? 8
9 A. I believe so, sir. I am not sure if 9
10 there was refinements within that. 10
11 Q. So was the levee basically 11
12 constructed on top of that newer 2,000 feet 12
13 wide area of spoil material? 13
14 A. Again, I -- I don't know the levee 14
15 design as to what procedures were taken, but 15
16 yes, on that alignment, yes, it was. 16
17 Q. It was on that alignment? Okay. 17
18 A. As far as I know, yes. 18
19 Q. And they already had maybe five or 19
20 eight feet of elevation; correct? 20
21 A. I don't know what the elevation was 21
22 post-construction of MRGO, but I would -- I 22
23 would -- based on material that was dredged, 23
24 yes, sir, I would think so. 24
25 Q. Okay. One of the things we have 25
Page 522 Page 524
131 (Pages 521 to 524)

1 1 WITNESS'S CERTIFICATE
2 WITNESS'S CERTIFICATE 2
3 3 I, NANCY JEAN POWELL, read or have had my
4 I, WALTER O. BAUMY, JR., read or 4 preceding testimony read to me, and hereby
5 have had my preceding testimony read to me, 5 certify that it is a true and correct
6 and hereby certify that it is a true and 6 transcription of my testimony, with the
7 correct transcription of my testimony, with 7 exception of any attached corrections or
8 the exception of any attached corrections or 8 changes.
9 changes. 9
10 10
11 _____________________
_____________________ 11 (Witness' Signature)
12 (Witness' Signature) 12 ____________
13 ____________ DATE SIGNED
DATE SIGNED 13
14 14 DEPONENT PLEASE INITIAL ONE:
15 DEPONENT PLEASE INITIAL ONE: 15
16 _____ Read with no corrections
_____ Read with no corrections 16
17 17 _____ Read and correction sheet attached
18 _____ Read and correction sheet attached 18
19 19
20 DATE TAKEN: NOVEMBER 15, 2007
DATE TAKEN: NOVEMBER 14, 2007 20
21 21
22 22
23 23
24 24
25 25
Page 525 Page 527
1 1
2 WITNESS'S CERTIFICATE 2 WITNESS'S CERTIFICATE
3 3
4 I, ALFRED CHARLES NAOMI, read or have had 4 I, KEITH JOSEPH O'CAIN, read or have had
5 my preceding testimony read to me, and hereby 5 my preceding testimony read to me, and hereby
6 certify that it is a true and correct 6 certify that it is a true and correct
7 transcription of my testimony, with the 7 transcription of my testimony, with the
8 exception of any attached corrections or 8 exception of any attached corrections or
9 changes. 9 changes.
10 10
11 11
_____________________ _____________________
12 (Witness' Signature) 12 (Witness' Signature)
13 ____________ 13 ____________
DATE SIGNED DATE SIGNED
14 14
15 DEPONENT PLEASE INITIAL ONE: 15 DEPONENT PLEASE INITIAL ONE:
16 16
_____ Read with no corrections _____ Read with no corrections
17 17
18 _____ Read and correction sheet attached 18 _____ Read and correction sheet attached
19 19
20 20
DATE TAKEN: NOVEMBER 14 AND 15, 2007 DATE TAKEN: NOVEMBER 15, 2007
21 21
22 22
23 23
24 24
25 25
Page 526 Page 528
132 (Pages 525 to 528)

1
2 REPORTER'S CERTIFICATE
3
4 I, ROGER D. JOHNS, RMR, RDR, CRR,
5 Certified Court Reporter, do hereby certify
6 that the above-named witness, after having
7 been first duly sworn by me to testify to the
8 truth, did testify as hereinabove set forth;
9 that the testimony was reported by me in
10 shorthand and transcribed under my personal
11 direction and supervision, and is a true and
12 correct transcript, to the best of my ability
13 and understanding; that I am not of counsel,
14 not related to counsel or the parties hereto,
15 and not in any way interested in the outcome
16 of this matter.
17
18
19
20 ROGER D. JOHNS
21 CERTIFIED COURT REPORTER
22 STATE OF LOUISIANA
23
24
25
Page 529
133 (Page 529)

Page 530
A 334:7 483:2,25 342:23 343:3 253:19,20 212:13 220:16

AA 418:16 515:10 346:7 adjustments 221:10 222:24
abandon 184:6 accuracy 291:5 actual 101:21 233:25 224:18 231:4
184:15 187:7 accurate 114:3 143:10 378:18 administering 249:4 257:18
abandoned 114:23 137:18 443:15 462:11 6:23 258:20,25
218:4 277:24 137:23 401:7,8 501:10 administration 260:15,18
363:13 460:5,6 achieved 175:3 Adam 5:3 13:24 236:4 261:19 267:6
abatement 296:13 14:22 advance 420:6 270:22 273:22
383:18 achieving 235:1 ADAMS 5:11 advanced 276:16,19
ability 61:8 acknowledge adapt 433:15 298:22 300:2 286:14 288:1
310:17 529:12 236:9 add 23:10 70:23 advancing 21:19 288:22 290:6
able 107:20 acquired 505:12 70:25 78:16 195:13 299:9 301:19
168:13 180:1 acreage 329:4 189:2 271:10 advantage 62:24 307:4 326:24
194:11 195:17 acres 328:17 added 71:10 adverse 159:14 328:11 330:13
243:13 253:9 382:2,13 79:1 201:14 159:23 160:19 334:21 335:1
311:4 329:18 Acronyms 341:7 239:22 408:17 advisable 82:20 335:10 336:13
355:20 423:11 act 20:2,3,10,15 519:15 advise 439:8 342:18 349:3
439:6 21:4 24:1 adding 76:7 441:17 357:22 379:12
abolished 480:7 138:21 147:3 85:21 86:1 advising 441:4,6 379:18 381:13
above-ground 150:5 183:16 188:18 aerial 299:12 389:8 400:15
49:25 201:22 212:25 addition 53:20 497:25 408:14 409:18
above-named 214:3,15 215:5 306:19 369:8 Affairs 431:10 411:8 416:14
529:6 215:12 217:22 369:24 372:3 affect 57:17 421:16 443:7
Absolutely 217:22 218:19 461:6 494:5 454:20 449:19 452:21
241:10 285:11 219:22 342:12 497:5 affirmatively 457:7 458:11
academic 437:5 344:21 371:4 additional 53:19 31:22 34:25 466:5 467:6,21
accept 20:17 371:10 396:25 70:23 99:10 36:18 38:22 468:13 469:22
93:21 518:14 523:5 102:14 169:7 42:4 55:10 471:2,16
acceptable Acting 351:24 237:25 244:5 58:9 59:19 474:22 483:23
362:25 357:19 245:2 266:11 60:15 68:7 511:11
accepted 345:4 action 1:5,10 311:5 355:7 70:2 77:17 afford 86:22
access 452:2 164:23 165:5 370:20 501:24 78:21 82:3 347:9
accommodate 168:24 190:15 Additionally 87:18 108:7 afforded 178:17
513:11 261:22 297:17 433:1 113:22 124:15 aforementioned
accommodating 322:18,22 additions 201:13 129:11 138:13 6:5
486:7 active 24:2 address 313:12 145:24 152:2 agency 429:24
accompanies 318:19 328:3,6 370:21 152:23 153:17 aggregate
105:4 activities 24:20 addressed 155:6 157:4 334:13,16,17
accompany 154:25 292:20 362:22 158:24 163:20 Agnew 358:4,8
452:18 438:13,15 adequate 83:4 177:8 178:15 ago 181:20
account 58:18 499:14 adjacent 38:20 180:22 187:21 agree 14:1 50:1
59:1,2,24 64:3 activity 325:16 39:2 40:25 189:25 195:23 97:13 105:13
67:17 69:18 487:18 491:8 115:14 155:11 196:13 197:7 421:14
82:1 89:18 492:10 318:14 326:13 197:22 199:4 agreed 6:3 13:19
165:17 166:6 acts 205:23 334:2 416:16 199:19 200:22 14:4,12 17:14
169:6 226:7 206:25 207:13 452:5 508:22 201:20 202:20 34:17 136:20
281:17 323:19 212:15 213:9 adjustment 81:8 204:6 205:10 150:9 519:20

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agreeing 150:7 494:12 499:15 255:4 288:15 anticipation applies 11:20

agreement 13:4 509:20 510:2 301:6 302:20 419:23 428:11 33:16 92:8
14:14 150:9 allows 330:25 306:1 314:2 Antwerp 133:1,3 apply 36:21 37:4
205:20 207:17 ally 400:23 319:3 331:6,10 anyway 101:12 37:4 49:16
207:20 363:2,4 Alternates 466:7 333:4 339:24 134:16 144:3 56:9 92:13
397:11 Alvin 25:5 340:1,11 344:1 154:5 404:8 106:18 139:20
agreements amended 519:7 348:19 354:9 405:13 appointee
213:6,8 amendments 360:17 362:5 Anzelmo 4:7,8 100:17 133:18
agricultural 25:16 364:5 365:17 13:6 appreciate 16:11
71:20 94:14 America 4:23 374:5,25 apart 72:23,25 402:13 433:21
Ah 189:5 200:16 5:5 13:14,19 375:14 376:3 251:22 474:4 486:7
254:16 273:4 American 376:15 377:20 apologize 34:12 approach
413:16 417:24 394:20 378:23 381:3 147:15 406:14 478:12 483:8
423:15 453:6 amount 188:18 382:16 385:17 apparently approaches
ahead 23:8 254:17 266:11 388:3 390:25 198:14 426:6 168:11
47:12 192:6 345:23 457:24 396:13,17 476:21 504:2 appropriate
393:8 430:19 500:14 399:14 406:10 appear 14:12 40:8 395:3
454:2 456:16 amounts 373:5 410:25 415:2 295:6 320:6 398:20 451:10
466:1 481:17 analogy 82:6 416:3 417:13 376:23 404:16 452:9,14
aircraft 263:13 analyses 89:15 420:16 424:11 APPEARANC... appropriated
263:14 251:8 282:23 425:12 426:19 2:1 311:12 392:11
Airline 3:8 4:14 analysis 41:2 428:18 473:25 appearing 393:11
Al 391:4 401:2 51:10 52:14 502:23 503:1,6 112:17 appropriates
429:4 430:6 70:19 75:21 and/or 113:2 appears 275:18 395:11
Alabama 334:3 85:2 87:25 Angeles 2:4 293:18 300:7 appropriation
alarming 326:23 88:1,22 181:17 annual 237:23 304:3 374:18 236:21 246:24
Alfred 1:18 9:9 199:24 243:25 237:24 386:11 375:9,25 379:6 323:14 397:16
9:15 112:3,7 287:17 290:24 494:17,19 381:11 400:12 439:22
357:4 379:2 372:18 461:19 521:16 401:20 405:16 appropriations
526:4 analysts 395:21 annually 317:10 407:15 411:9 237:24 323:7,8
alignment Analyze 40:19 386:20 411:12 415:8 323:15,22,23
226:20 522:16 41:10 answer 6:15 415:11 416:18 371:17,19
522:17 analyzed 43:5 36:23 42:7 418:12 423:1 393:22
alignments 44:19 59:8 52:10 71:15 426:17 427:17 approval 140:20
250:5 72:14 91:2 97:16 511:19,19 196:24 197:19
alive 458:3 analyzing 49:23 108:1 187:16 514:21 198:3,12,15
alleviated ancient 453:2 231:18 423:11 appendix 267:4 292:11
159:24 ancillary 117:16 436:8 378:1,6 approvals 79:20
Alley 485:8 Anderson answered 192:6 appendixes 196:9 256:3
allocation 439:4 128:17 445:2 362:11 approved
allow 64:24 Andry 2:15,15 answers 104:13 Applicability 141:14 147:1
77:22 466:23 12:13 13:5 anticipate 90:24 92:7 198:13 227:6
allowance 70:14 80:13 113:12 anticipated applicable 293:24 294:13
261:22 136:23 138:7 43:21 414:12 461:25 294:15,19
allowances 140:7 153:12 428:9 515:13 application 295:4 342:9
71:18 211:16,25 anticipating 383:17 approving 198:9
allowed 76:20 212:6 248:4 424:5 applied 234:22 approximate

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152:10 157:7 177:14 178:10 463:12 483:10 466:21 467:4 arrangements

173:6 268:17 178:18,19,25 487:17 493:18 469:13,14 346:20
380:11 443:10 179:14 180:16 493:20 497:5 483:20 arrived 219:16
approximately 180:20,25 498:21,22 Army 1:17 16:21 arrow 146:1
24:13 89:20,21 182:9 190:18 500:18 501:4 17:24 25:14 149:3 276:17
107:11 117:1 195:15,15,16 501:25 502:19 27:5 31:24 358:15,20
121:13 129:9 195:21 196:3 504:12 505:14 98:23 104:24 427:2
142:20 147:8 200:18 214:6 505:17 506:15 112:18 117:8 article 112:19
147:25 162:4 214:10,14 506:20 507:7 121:15 122:8 358:13 399:19
166:17 178:20 215:2 221:17 507:19,21 124:8 133:17 400:12 401:21
255:20 264:3 221:23 224:11 508:8,23 133:19,23 401:23,25
337:15 384:13 226:25 245:6 509:14 510:6 135:24 136:1 431:5,6
391:13 444:1 249:18 252:20 511:15 515:21 139:19 140:17 articulate 100:3
505:23 516:17 255:11 257:1 516:8,9,17 183:24 184:5 503:4
approximation 257:13 258:11 518:6 520:5,13 187:5 193:22 articulated
287:21 380:17 262:15,15,16 520:24 521:2 196:23 207:24 489:14
443:20 444:5,7 262:20 263:23 521:13,14,25 208:6,24 209:7 asked 57:9 135:4
444:17 264:8 265:8,25 522:6,13 209:24 211:1 192:5,6 234:9
April 91:19 269:2 270:4 areas 21:11 23:9 240:6 246:2 241:14 246:16
104:23 106:9 272:20,21 23:11 24:4 248:10 255:8 246:21 284:6
364:15 416:13 278:4 281:16 46:18,22 47:19 281:16 295:2 397:4 513:18
418:6 420:21 291:22 292:24 47:20 48:23 306:11 322:25 asking 14:9
421:10 431:4,9 293:8,25 294:2 49:11 54:21 333:8 340:7 242:6 291:6
431:18 437:14 294:8 295:8,12 67:22 68:5 341:16 346:9 392:22 464:6
448:12 450:5 296:24 297:4 94:14 97:21 349:1 351:24 467:25
472:4 474:24 301:2,15 113:3 114:4,24 354:22 357:20 aspect 52:20
478:5 304:12 308:9 123:6 132:4 360:22 374:9 97:8 452:8
architect 227:22 312:17 317:11 154:22 157:25 375:3,17 aspects 21:10
area 18:23 19:21 318:16,21 159:22 192:17 385:21 401:12 102:18 195:11
35:24 50:1,4 322:8 324:5 224:13 230:9 402:22 429:23 362:19 404:17
50:15 52:5,25 329:5,10,11 233:24 247:13 430:7 431:9,15 441:11,13
57:13 60:23 330:11,20,21 264:5,5,10 435:16 436:17 451:20 457:12
63:7 65:11,22 330:23 334:1 318:13 328:2 437:13 481:22 468:25
72:9 96:20 337:6,10 352:7,8,21,21 481:23,24,25 assessment 79:9
98:17 102:1 341:25 342:7 352:23,23 487:3 503:16 315:21
114:17 115:9 355:12 369:8 369:25 372:4,5 505:10 511:4,5 assigned 80:15
141:15 148:5,7 370:17 372:5,9 372:9,20 518:15 297:17 439:1
148:9 149:12 373:6 380:1 389:15 390:5 Arpent 156:19 assignment
149:20,21 387:9 389:10 409:1 417:6 157:8,9,10,12 120:3
153:16 154:11 389:11 405:18 493:2 157:14,16,20 assignments
154:17,19 406:2 415:7 arena 309:18 158:9 176:2 437:21
155:2,7,9,13 416:15,18 arises 350:13 238:16 Assistant 133:16
155:17,25 417:19,23 armor 470:13 arrange 108:3 133:19
156:9,14 158:6 418:12 436:11 armoring 60:1 110:4 associated 22:16
158:7 159:13 442:19 444:15 81:20 190:25 arrangement 35:23 54:21
159:15 171:3 450:18,20,25 191:8,21,23 203:23 348:1,3 66:18
176:6,17,23 453:9 458:8 466:8,16,18,20 348:10 Associates 2:2

Page 533
association 66:19 489:15 430:12 482:10,12 340:8 376:9

303:7,20,21 Atlantic 179:9 authorization Avenue 2:8 5:4 385:11 413:9
assume 31:17 attach 284:25 134:23 147:2 20:21,25 21:1 413:15 435:17
131:19 161:5 attached 7:3 150:25 151:10 21:2,6 112:8 466:7
165:19 174:19 152:8 199:11 164:3 170:13 298:23 299:2,8 Bachelor's 437:6
175:25 176:4,7 358:6,22 379:6 183:5 184:6,14 299:23 344:18 back 20:8 37:1
220:19 231:14 525:8,18 526:8 187:8 220:20 344:25 435:3 38:8 47:12
234:24 263:8 526:18 527:7 246:22 250:7 average 171:24 53:22 58:7
295:1 297:11 527:17 528:8 292:11 293:16 176:5 328:17 60:11 72:15
301:21 302:1 528:18 346:6 349:12 avoid 13:20 78:7,15 98:20
320:23 329:22 attaches 358:12 371:16,20 award 312:4 113:4,6 114:16
331:21 332:2 attack 227:14 390:8 399:6 380:4 433:3 114:18 135:5,6
338:2,15 attacks 327:19 519:16 awarded 410:8 143:10 151:4
340:22,25 ATTENDANCE authorizations aware 82:17 151:19 154:14
355:15 386:14 2:20 3:1 4:1 237:23 95:4 166:25 155:23 156:5
398:19 402:1 5:1 authorize 188:8,10 160:16 161:25
409:15 414:15 attended 308:12 246:18 284:6 224:14 240:8 162:25 167:21
460:15 480:15 attending 13:3 393:9 397:5 262:14 280:20 170:17 176:2
480:15 attention 309:25 authorized 281:24 316:12 177:15 181:2
assumed 313:4 attenuated 20:15 119:10 316:24 321:14 182:16,17,18
313:10 322:17,21 139:14 146:19 326:2 347:6,23 184:4,5,14
assuming 220:20 ATTORNEYS 147:6,9 183:12 379:25 397:15 186:25 187:6
assurance 2:4,9,17,23 3:6 183:14,15 397:23 398:21 191:11,11
205:24 206:25 3:10,13,17,22 184:17,18 446:5,7 451:7 193:25 194:22
207:14 212:15 4:5,10,15,19 187:9 201:21 451:8 470:20 196:7,21
212:25 214:3 4:23 5:5,9,13 218:7 227:8 476:22,23,25 198:11 200:8
214:15 215:6 augmented 236:12 241:17 478:8 479:14 204:12,14
215:13 217:22 174:6 277:25 246:23 262:2 480:5,9 485:25 206:2,6 208:5
218:19 219:23 278:2 292:5 353:20 500:16 502:18 208:7,23 209:2
343:3 augmenting 360:2 366:4,22 515:2,15 209:22,23
assurances 395:7 371:6 390:4 A-1 36:12,14 210:20,22
213:9 217:22 August 194:1 391:25 392:11 58:7 211:7 220:3,5
233:10 342:23 199:5 201:2 393:3 396:24 A-2 38:14 220:9 221:2,17
assuring 219:4,7 210:23 255:21 431:11 440:1,3 222:1,23
asterisk 203:2 306:7 333:12 488:1 B 225:19 226:4
astronomical 379:11 385:23 authorizes 392:2 b 1:16 2:15 3:9 226:25 227:5
458:22 auspices 345:16 authorizing 6:7 7:1 8:1 229:17 231:8
as-built 228:15 author 383:4 139:2 221:3 10:15 11:16,19 232:25 233:15
228:16 403:2,5 477:11 availability 86:7 15:24 16:15,20 233:21 235:3
404:13,17,22 Authored 87:15,16 53:2 64:2 242:12 255:15
405:8 406:6 477:13 237:18 69:25 70:16 255:21 262:18
408:15 authoritative available 39:25 71:16 73:19,23 263:14 264:7
as-builts 228:24 436:8 85:2 86:6 84:16 93:18 265:23 273:9
229:12 404:21 authority 184:19 136:6 176:17 96:22 112:19 279:6 282:14
408:23 411:14 184:23 187:6 235:19 365:4 114:10 115:12 286:4 290:5
411:14,16 221:7 294:6 449:21,22 180:10 185:4 291:8,19 292:6
Atchafalaya 371:11 398:15 450:2 473:3 289:23 334:19 295:5 297:19

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336:4 343:19 409:17 485:23 160:8 261:3 Baumy 1:18 9:6 141:20 145:16
343:21 358:6 489:16 491:23 409:6,10,13 10:7,15,18 154:16 185:10
413:17 419:5 492:13 493:4 413:20,20 16:2,8,19 256:10 307:17
421:12 426:7 493:22,23 422:19 17:12 91:15 389:10 505:7
439:3 445:8 495:14,14 based 39:16,25 126:15 266:7 begins 46:8,14
446:9,13 500:22,23 52:7 54:11 364:24 365:2 73:14 152:20
448:20 475:25 504:12,16,21 56:7 61:10 365:11 525:4 158:22 161:11
477:13 483:21 505:8,14,17 72:13 77:10 bayou 145:3 173:7 328:9
504:7 505:20 506:12,15,19 89:6 123:5 146:9,17 begs 429:23
506:24 508:15 507:19,21 233:5 236:20 206:19 208:14 430:11
508:19 509:19 508:8 515:16 250:4,7 251:7 208:15,18,20 begun 170:21
510:3,3,6,17 515:20 516:17 281:3 312:13 214:22 262:6,6 behalf 10:7
510:18 514:17 518:5 520:5,13 346:7 361:13 276:4 277:1,4 13:13,24 14:22
519:8 520:22,24 363:5,14,24 292:5 294:13 15:4,7,15,19
background 521:2,13,14,25 445:20,23 294:16 301:15 235:18 236:8
17:23 19:1 banks 64:15,19 453:22 454:21 301:16 318:21 390:19
121:25 381:21 64:21,23 171:8 462:25 471:19 318:21 330:4,4 belated 307:13
437:5 453:15 178:25 321:12 479:7 507:4 330:7,17,18 Belgium 133:3
468:19 487:9 325:11,25 522:23 331:1 375:7 believe 29:1
backwards 326:11 328:15 baseline 81:4,6,8 384:8,9,12 41:15,16 57:12
278:10,19 328:17 383:18 81:10 269:5,8 415:9 416:20 57:13 85:1
bad 252:11,12 387:1,4 486:4 269:10,13,16 425:19,19 99:1 100:18
Ballpark 488:11 491:13 494:22 baselines 342:3 426:4,5 427:4 109:2 113:23
516:6 495:5 497:2 basic 17:23 442:18 444:6,8 116:6 129:6
bank 23:1 499:22 502:13 21:23 23:1 491:4 131:11 135:12
117:11 120:11 515:3 520:18 106:3 181:12 bayous 258:7 150:22 164:9
127:3 178:19 Baptiste 488:15 196:14 229:22 510:4 166:13 168:2
178:21 253:11 barber 272:2 294:23 495:25 BB 418:17 170:11,23
254:12 294:12 barge 7:4 503:22 basically 25:24 beach 457:20 177:18 178:5,6
294:14,16 barges 494:6,7,8 125:7 132:1 463:1 466:9,13 181:10 182:1
300:18 319:9 494:9 134:21 187:22 467:11 469:9 186:20 190:19
320:3 321:4,9 Baronne 2:12,16 190:2 247:15 479:15,16,17 192:16 195:3
321:17 322:8 barrier 160:10 260:3 267:16 479:19 212:14 215:21
325:21 326:14 183:20,23 363:4 383:2 beam 260:23 219:18 220:23
326:21 327:2,6 184:6,7,15 392:8 397:11 bear 122:18 221:22 222:7
327:13 329:5 193:24 212:22 488:5 489:13 474:15 239:21 255:25
329:20,23 215:16 216:5 491:4 495:14 BEARDEN 3:20 262:4 263:3
334:1 337:6,10 216:25 218:3 496:3 501:15 Bears 364:15 281:1,2 289:6
338:19,23 219:15 237:2 506:25 522:11 beats 421:10 289:11 291:13
349:5,15,17 282:9 304:18 BASIN 3:23 BECNEL 3:7,8 293:10,12
350:3 352:10 307:21 362:17 basis 102:2 before-mentio... 310:24 311:10
355:4 367:13 363:12,13,16 125:7 130:12 16:5 112:10 313:7 315:23
369:18 381:8 396:24 397:20 161:3 228:2 435:5 485:10 322:24 329:17
382:3 383:22 468:16 248:22 328:22 began 90:19 361:21 365:10
384:20,24 barriers 94:17 407:10 167:24 505:11 384:5 385:3
385:3,11,14,23 468:15 Bates 351:8 514:15 523:4 387:23 388:17
386:22 387:9 base 70:11 83:23 Baton 119:20 beginning 93:22 397:6 401:6

Page 535
448:13,17 168:6,13 74:12,14,17,24 452:6 456:17 bounded 194:19

472:12 512:4,9 247:18 248:14 75:5,11 190:9 458:1 459:5 BOURGEOIS
514:14 522:9 274:12 287:3 blender 508:6 491:18 493:24 3:18
believed 236:17 299:2,13 bless 274:17 494:1 box 405:18
believes 397:7 381:22 blocks 109:3 boring 53:20 407:23
beneath 41:17 beyond 206:20 blue 67:4,4 272:4 282:16 bracket 400:17
42:11 52:23 237:16 249:10 146:14 154:7 297:7 456:5 branch 2:7
benefits 359:24 272:17 310:12 330:20,20 borings 51:23 21:23 22:24,25
BENJAMIN 3:3 370:23 blurred 427:23 52:1 53:2 23:20,21
Beowulf 283:22 Bienvenu 89:22 Blvd 3:16 4:9 272:5 297:9 103:23 117:9
283:23 206:19 208:14 board 3:22 4:10 375:23 405:3 118:18 121:8
Bergeron 340:8 208:18 214:22 5:9 15:16 borrow 38:18 127:2,4,9,21
340:9,12,14 214:22 258:8 212:19 218:23 39:9 40:25 128:10,13,25
berm 441:20 262:6,24 276:5 305:11 340:18 61:15,18 64:3 129:3,4,5,7,15
berms 94:10,11 277:2,4 301:16 479:15,18,19 65:11,12,17 236:2 237:22
Bermuda 83:11 318:21 326:8 479:20,22,25 66:8 67:6,7,22 317:15 353:18
Bernard 146:23 330:4,7,17 480:6,11,18 68:5 79:21,22 386:3 436:21
147:10,23 384:9 415:9 boat 330:25 79:23 86:8 438:2,3,9,12
156:17 157:6 418:10 424:20 396:3,4 87:16 94:23 487:20,22
207:7,25 425:19 426:4 Bob 341:1 96:21 102:7 branches 126:13
208:21 214:25 427:4 442:17 bodies 324:14 332:14,16 126:25 127:11
217:24 219:25 442:18 491:5,6 body 100:24 520:3 127:15
238:18 247:15 big 329:15 371:4 106:17 115:21 borrowed 64:9 breach 37:22
252:20 295:9 371:4 439:3 172:25 330:15 bottom 67:19 38:4,6 327:25
300:18,21 bigger 454:7 boil 507:21 70:1 84:8 breached 322:8
301:17 313:19 456:21 boiling 59:23 144:18 176:9 327:8,13
314:16 319:8 bill 246:25 bonus 507:9 189:6 216:6 breaches 1:5
346:13,17,22 bills 371:16 Borgne 3:22 231:18 260:19 10:8 153:19
347:3,8 348:13 binders 26:1 13:2 66:6 69:1 270:18 271:9 321:24 349:21
352:5 354:17 bio 26:25 486:3 69:10 154:20 271:15 274:5 break 56:20 57:1
354:21 379:23 486:23 155:11,15 289:22 321:22 57:9 97:20
416:11 417:18 biography 158:4,13,15 358:23 367:7 98:3 285:21
418:6 131:19 179:15,20 388:8 391:19 314:7 402:3
best 29:5 91:24 biology 329:12 180:3 185:16 394:3 431:21 457:14
95:14 96:6 bird's 274:2,19 207:6,8,9,25 465:9 470:25 breaking 162:12
100:11 113:7 497:23 208:21 217:23 495:9,20,23 457:17,20,22
122:15 313:11 bit 20:5 206:20 219:24 245:10 496:2,11,14,17 breaks 190:12
313:21 347:25 235:14 337:19 281:6,11,18 498:18 501:11 467:1,2
348:15 465:3 410:15 451:2 289:3 295:10 518:9 Breakthroughs
529:12 454:7,8,9 322:2,12 324:7 Boulevard 3:21 387:17
Betsy 140:2 black 286:7 327:3,7,15,19 485:8 breakwater
211:2,9 251:16 BLANCHARD 329:24 349:23 bounce 263:13 470:17
252:10,16 4:16 358:18 384:20 bound 244:23 Breaux 351:22
259:9 304:11 Blanco 347:20 385:14,15 boundaries 371:4
332:23 477:23 BLANK 111:9 387:17,22 201:25 488:4 Bret 128:25
477:24 518:13 434:8 484:15 389:13,25 boundary 129:2
better 96:12 blanket 74:5,11 416:17 451:17 214:18,23 Breton 185:15

Page 536
322:2 324:8,10 45:12 62:3 4:13 84:5 85:17 277:22 299:7

349:24 79:6,10 141:14 buried 223:19 88:2,4 105:6 300:22 317:20
Bretschneider 144:4 166:9 223:20 225:1,3 107:14 118:2 344:18,25
376:9,12 167:21 188:1 Business 154:25 129:5,6 132:2 359:5,6,20
Brian 7:4 209:19 216:21 businesses 373:8 135:22 145:20 510:9,12,13,16
bridge 159:23 227:18 228:19 butterfly 20:22 150:1,17 canals 40:25
186:1 344:20 231:15 245:20 20:24 21:3 163:18 167:15 298:4
511:20 245:23 311:5 B-1 50:9 173:3 183:17 cap 75:2 259:24
brief 25:22 377:16 392:3 B.S 18:19 487:10 185:5 195:22 260:4 271:14
124:7 393:2 397:1 201:18 205:23 capability 305:2
briefed 120:23 414:21 440:10 C 242:15 247:18 305:7
briefing 303:5 517:22 522:6 C 38:18 43:8 248:14 254:2 capable 310:13
303:10 304:4 building 55:25 68:1 83:1 258:2 266:8 capacity 14:25
briefly 19:4,13 64:7 67:6 76:3 84:20 131:8,11 278:3 282:16 71:3 85:15
26:20 117:22 78:13,18 80:8 131:22 133:9 284:18 288:23 372:11
119:3 134:10 86:4 87:4 350:6 376:10 290:10 302:24 capital 216:19
135:8 181:19 167:16 174:5 379:2 384:23 307:3 319:7 315:9,10,10
349:11 216:20 227:14 cake 266:17 320:14 324:1 375:22
brilliant 14:16 266:17 321:6 Calcasieu 331:14 348:25 capped 225:12
bring 110:22 332:17 333:20 488:14 366:2 371:23 caption 425:17
355:21,23 356:10 380:7 calculate 43:20 381:19 388:16 captured 53:13
bringing 47:4 393:9 409:11 calculated 71:2 391:5 397:22 100:9,11
broad 517:3 412:6 510:17 calculation 398:18 405:24 care 168:2 310:6
broken 495:16 buildings 22:11 181:12 290:13 406:2 452:6 473:15 486:23
brought 474:15 builds 474:13 328:23 445:20 480:11 481:13 501:25
Bruno 2:11,11 built 46:20 76:17 calculations 485:17 511:24 career 122:8
10:22 12:13 76:19 149:12 77:11 78:2 calling 68:22 437:18 489:10
13:10,25 14:6 164:8 167:9 107:1,2 281:3 calls 431:15 careful 209:14
184:8 176:2 183:9 281:4 442:1,3 calm 165:7,9 235:22 326:10
BUCHLER 2:12 217:4,10,11 455:12 CALVIN 3:15 carefully 47:6
bucket 508:23 219:10,12 calibrated camera 156:1 178:5
budget 311:24 220:10 229:4 445:25 479:3 454:1 Carl 128:17
388:20 389:4 238:14 240:5 California 2:4 Campbell 3:12 Carnarvan
393:12,14,18 264:6,10 337:2 310:7 15:11,12 294:9
393:25 431:24 380:10,12 call 16:20,21,24 canal 1:5 10:8 Carondelet 4:4
438:24 404:13 405:9 21:21 22:8,24 114:17 145:1 case 11:21 13:18
budgetary 447:1 496:21 44:5,12 155:21 146:13,15 81:11 104:14
134:11 135:13 506:1 520:11 242:17 440:2 149:8 157:8,10 123:9 150:2
135:19 522:7 440:21 455:19 157:21 158:9 169:8 194:17
budgeting bumped 341:12 465:10 481:14 160:1 161:24 244:23 269:18
120:22 bumper 240:10 490:20 498:11 171:5,9,16,24 295:6 317:4
buffer 321:25 bunch 79:18 519:20 173:4 174:1 324:22 332:15
349:22 131:3 216:2 called 44:3 56:13 175:21 176:3 362:22 380:18
buffering 281:21 381:10 410:19 60:18 68:12 185:14,22 436:2 485:17
281:25 322:4,5 430:1,2 431:22 69:4,5 70:14 222:8 238:17 cases 1:6 15:1,5
322:6,22 Bureau 259:8 70:24 71:11 253:13,16 15:9 48:16
build 43:9 45:4 BURGLASS 75:2 81:21 257:20 272:22 cash 216:15

Page 537
castle 248:15 center 481:6,18 CHAFFE 4:21 120:8 145:2,6 468:17,23

Cat 244:6 central 118:11 chain 196:22 159:13,18,20 469:19 471:19
catastrophe Centre 4:22 256:2 160:24 161:16 chapters 448:18
309:5,8 century 446:10 Chalmette 19:21 162:6 172:25 466:12
catastrophic ceremony 98:17 175:15 185:14 191:18 characteristic
241:2,9 243:20 514:13 175:19 178:14 192:13 276:15 142:2,14
252:1,6,9,14 certain 20:15 180:25 182:9 321:16 322:1 163:14,23
252:19 284:11 27:9 40:20 195:20 196:3 322:12,16 characteristics
298:5 47:5 48:6 200:15,18 327:15,17 143:1,3,5,6
categories 41:3 72:13 161:20 214:6,10,14 328:15,16 239:5
143:19 162:2 190:3 255:10 257:1 331:16 332:1 characterization
categorized 232:19 266:11 257:13 258:11 332:24 349:18 50:10 466:4
84:11 311:16 312:13 263:23 264:8 349:23 350:9 characterize
category 117:17 312:20 313:17 264:12 265:8 350:10 352:10 79:17
241:18 242:8 320:25 326:3 265:25 278:4 352:11 374:12 characterized
243:14 250:10 342:3 345:20 281:15 284:19 382:1,2 451:23 368:8
250:12,18 352:23 375:6 289:23 290:1 459:2 489:11 charge 124:14
312:25 366:6 418:5 427:1 291:22,24 489:13 490:8 160:15
367:17,19 certainly 38:1 292:3,24 293:1 490:10,11,19 charged 160:2
368:2,10,12,14 99:21 237:7 293:8,25 294:2 492:25 493:11 Charles 1:18 5:7
368:19,20 339:6 373:2 295:12 296:4 495:8 496:1,4 9:9,15 112:7
394:7,15 401:1 392:24 465:24 301:15 355:4 498:19,25 117:13 217:9
432:23 436:10 486:6 492:17 chance 123:7 499:4,15,23 217:19 219:12
caught 33:1 503:3 512:12 Chandelier 502:3 504:21 264:11 376:9
456:7 512:12 324:7,10 505:6 506:10 526:4
cause 322:13 CERTIFICATE change 96:3 511:13,13,20 Charlie 15:15
359:4 525:2 526:2 97:19 106:8 515:4,14 chart 46:6 54:17
caused 304:11 527:1 528:2 129:25 130:9 channeling 124:7 145:10
328:17 352:5 529:2 210:8 218:6,8 493:5 145:13 232:16
352:11,12 certification 397:5 398:21 channelization charting 226:3
459:16 6:11 398:22 405:8 325:15 440:12
causes 153:3,3 Certified 5:18 465:12 478:12 channels 38:20 check 291:14
322:11 493:20 6:21 529:5,21 478:14 375:6,20 Chef 181:3
495:10 certify 525:6 changed 83:10 376:21 488:1 215:20 217:1
Causeway 3:21 526:6 527:5 129:17 191:7 channel's 497:23 218:5 307:22
4:9 528:6 529:5 196:25 201:14 chapter 50:20 362:18
causing 159:21 certifying 201:15 213:2 54:2 61:13 chief 18:2 22:18
493:22 342:19 228:23 480:10 69:15,21 83:16 22:25 23:21
caution 324:23 cetera 36:20 changes 25:15 453:8 455:24 24:6,9,18,21
caveat 92:16 46:13 83:5 106:9 221:4,8 457:4 458:15 103:22 117:9
453:19 115:12,12,12 475:1 477:21 459:20 460:17 121:8 126:15
CD-ROM 115:15 161:1 478:3,8,10 461:10,15,19 128:24,25
291:15 188:17 189:11 525:9 526:9 462:18,23 129:3,4 132:22
cease 165:5 213:22 297:13 527:8 528:9 463:5,17,20 132:25 133:14
Cecil 385:25 327:19 334:6 channel 118:14 464:9,17,20,24 139:16,16
CEDE 154:2 343:11 523:7 118:20 119:4,6 465:1,16 466:2 184:19 197:3
celebrity 391:9 ceteras 342:21 119:12,14 467:11 468:4 221:7 294:6,20

Page 538
298:1,2 303:6 225:19 226:4 398:5 509:21 477:21 478:4 combined 85:2
341:11 344:13 226:25 227:5 clearances 79:19 478:11,19 come 40:1 43:16
386:2 397:8 231:8 232:25 clearly 28:18 479:21,23 143:22 189:2
398:16,25 233:15,21 climate 482:25 480:11,17 190:11 248:20
399:1 436:20 235:3 255:15 clip 212:2 481:20 483:1 250:3 283:8
437:24 438:5,8 255:21 290:4,5 254:21 coastline 465:7 313:14 330:25
chiefs 125:23 city 133:3 close 62:3,11 coasts 179:9 339:12 345:23
Chief's 21:22 250:13 300:21 234:1 247:6 coda 34:5 361:12 422:9
choose 312:23 399:20 431:16 253:18 262:13 code 364:14 493:12 496:1
chosen 167:25 431:16 262:17 268:10 406:25 407:9 497:7
CHRISTOVI... civil 1:5,10 2:7 268:11 324:12 coding 28:15 comes 115:20
5:6 6:7 11:20 324:13 327:7 407:5,10 135:5 157:5
chronicled 18:20,24 22:24 402:4 426:7 cohesive 463:24 165:24 258:4
373:23 23:21 28:10 442:17 493:13 517:13 323:18,21
chronicling 29:6,8 33:16 closed 492:19 Colette 488:15 423:8 429:8,10
370:5 122:1,20 123:3 closer 327:3 colleague 135:4 451:24 493:25
chronological 132:22 133:17 415:9 521:5,6 colleagues 25:25 515:24 519:3
211:24 133:20 306:10 521:18 108:19 coming 16:11
chronology 399:6 437:7,8 closes 330:10 collected 429:12 59:5 233:8
123:24 130:4 486:9 487:2,10 closest 69:9 collection 281:10 334:1
134:10,17,19 487:13,14,20 closure 328:4 212:14 459:1 484:7
134:22 135:23 civilian 125:4,15 425:19,23 collective 244:22 494:21 504:14
137:19 138:1 claim 115:8,13 coarse 60:8,11 college 104:2 506:24 523:12
Chud 5:3 13:23 clamshells 60:18 63:1 117:25 command
13:24 14:21,22 176:22,23 334:13,15 Collins 376:11 196:22 256:2
churning 59:23 177:1 335:9,11 coast 395:24 376:12 commanded
circled 212:23 335:14 488:13 Colonel 25:3,5 131:6
circumstance clarification coastal 26:23 32:12 118:22 Commander
443:6 357:7 421:25 97:22 103:10 118:24 124:14 124:19 398:16
circumstances classification 104:25 105:14 124:20 125:4 401:11
33:7,12 82:21 272:7 283:15 105:25 106:2,4 125:17 341:4 commanding
82:23 106:13 284:18 517:2 106:5,6,14,20 354:13 379:9 132:20
499:19 classified 54:11 107:10 353:18 401:15 commands
citation 430:1 clay 55:1,1,5 369:25 370:10 color 286:6 131:4
Citrus 113:4 63:5,7,9 75:1,1 370:22 436:10 colored 286:25 commencement
114:16 177:7 75:2 102:8 448:4,6,10 column 224:1 342:24 343:4
177:15,20,21 495:15 517:16 450:12,13,15 265:12 289:19 commensurate
181:1 182:16 clayey 226:18 450:16,17,20 290:10 509:16 166:10
182:17 189:18 227:1 450:25 451:4,4 columns 223:13 comment 196:14
193:25 194:22 clays 517:4 451:11,14,18 223:14 290:14 220:11 292:11
196:7,21 200:8 clean 114:11 451:19 452:9 combination 304:20
204:11,14 cleaning 499:12 452:12 455:16 29:9 141:25 comments
206:2 208:4,7 clear 14:11 462:23 465:2 142:12 153:2 102:23 197:18
209:22 210:20 83:24 138:18 467:4,22 468:5 163:12 271:23 314:25
210:22 211:7 149:24 154:6 468:20 471:20 400:21 commercial
220:5,8 221:1 234:24 296:2 472:5 474:11 combinations 154:24
221:17 222:23 342:1 350:22 474:24 475:11 325:15 commission

Page 539
100:11,14,15 completed 63:24,25 334:18 489:14 266:21,24,25

151:23 314:16 174:24 186:4 compressible concurrence 277:25 284:6
354:17 364:13 209:4,24 231:1 380:1 346:20 292:5 295:5
Commissioners 232:22 233:1 compressing condition 409:14 306:5 339:7
3:22 4:11 233:16 234:7 43:12 conditions 33:20 342:9 345:19
212:19 218:23 234:10,11 compression 37:4 46:20 346:21 347:21
340:19 242:12 306:21 516:14 49:13,15,18,19 353:20 366:4,5
commitment 307:24 308:19 comprise 219:19 49:24,25 50:7 366:22 371:6
311:16 347:6 309:1 321:15 Comptroller 56:10 72:14 392:1,11 393:3
347:18 336:20 342:7 306:6 87:12 102:4 393:6,11
Committee 7:5 342:20 343:7 compute 59:8 142:1,8,13 394:21 395:2
27:19 343:18 344:21 computed 163:13 227:13 395:11 396:24
committees 27:2 345:9 404:11 261:23 302:3 355:7,12 397:4,10,14,16
27:3,9 246:23 410:12 523:2 computer 367:5 461:20 397:17,19,23
371:17 completing 399:13,18 468:18 398:1,19 399:8
common 60:22 236:11 481:21 conducted 518:13
63:7 98:12 completion computing 342:17 345:3 Congressional
371:12 185:10,11 106:4 482:20 360:7 166:8 304:14
commonly 54:21 205:18 209:12 conceding 150:3 confer 104:7 323:13 361:13
68:12 71:20 231:22 232:1 conceived configuration 399:6
113:3 115:9 235:2,20 519:16 72:10 Congressionally
366:2 265:17,24 concept 61:4 confirm 390:22 147:13 295:4
compact 39:12 296:11 306:18 concern 42:24 404:9 connected
48:19 57:14,21 307:10,13 308:14 321:9 confluence 324:14,18
62:22,23 341:16 350:11 321:19,20 358:19 connection
compacted 48:2 382:1 440:13 326:18 confound 81:13 101:2 324:24
48:25 58:1 complex 217:1,2 concerned 148:7 confronted 324:25 325:3
73:16 508:25 217:2 218:4,5 304:13 311:14 332:4 connects 172:22
compacting 47:6 218:5 219:15 concerning confused 198:8 conservative
48:10 64:11,12 282:10 313:20 349:17 Congress 20:9 40:3
compaction complexes concerns 52:18 79:12 139:17 consider 156:6
41:25 44:9 307:21 373:19 141:12,13 457:14
46:22 47:2,13 complications conclude 95:25 144:4 146:19 considerably
48:6 49:14,19 233:12 280:16 147:9,23 239:24
56:13,16,17 complying 166:8 concluded 83:2 148:23 150:3 consideration
57:10,11,17 component 156:8 243:2 183:13,14,15 62:2 69:17
76:8 266:8 53:15 216:24 366:17 184:4,5,14,17 456:12
516:13 256:8 conclusion 283:9 187:6 218:7 considerations
compared 63:23 components 319:23 366:13 234:9,14 235:9 34:22 59:22
comparison 43:15 200:11 concrete 19:19 235:18 236:3,5 81:25 86:6
100:1 359:24 composed 97:12 27:24 28:12 236:7,13,16 87:12
Complaint 303:22 74:24,25 85:15 237:22 241:14 considered
123:8,14 composition 85:16 225:13 241:17,25 37:24 46:9
485:20 54:14 259:24 260:4,4 242:7,10,18 48:20 54:15
complete 209:3 comprehensive 260:19,21 244:6 246:15 55:23 60:3
234:16 236:18 106:2 261:2,2 271:14 246:18,21,22 71:24 163:13
345:5,12 346:9 compressibility 271:16,24 246:23 250:8 173:1 226:19

Page 540
368:9 383:17 443:2 496:8,9 307:20,23 464:18 contributed

456:18 466:3 496:10 500:13 323:8,18 context 400:13 307:14
considering 508:10,17 333:14,22 401:20 466:12 contribution
366:15 516:21 520:24 335:12 343:20 continuation 215:6 216:16
consistency 522:12 346:3,11 352:6 232:16 435:16 242:18
495:6 constructing 359:16 364:21 continue 47:18 control 13:17
consistent 34:1 40:17 386:22 404:10 47:19 159:16 19:17 20:3,10
497:13 41:22 62:18 409:4,21 414:6 163:1 359:20 21:4 24:1
consistently 94:12 96:24 414:10 420:6 373:15 69:16 74:7
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Page 578
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Page 579
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447:12 458:25 12:25 13:1 468:4,4 476:5 1000 2:3 166:20,22
491:9 476:10,16 104 7:11 167:24 169:5
years 22:20 $ 477:12 485:24 1073 138:19 181:2 192:3
$2 430:12 511:25

Page 598
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196:21 220:5 153 7:15 286:11 288:18 408:25 410:1 21:20
221:19 254:22 16 7:9,17 9:6,7 336:21 421:10 411:7 1998 120:6
255:15 277:15 179:10,19 523:5 1968 201:8 373:21 488:21
278:22 306:19 221:24 222:2 1900 446:13,14 321:15 328:19 490:12
384:13 248:5,7,7 192 216:6 328:19 336:21 1999 241:19
13.8 182:13 254:6 277:15 1929 460:4 516:18 523:2 242:6 340:20
130 511:16 513:4 277:15 278:14 193 7:16 1969 357:19 342:17 388:12
1331 2:8 279:20,21 1947 99:10 100:5 358:7 360:7 389:17,23
137 7:13,14 280:1 307:15 100:24 101:5 1970 307:10 390:9
138 7:14 16.5 244:8 364:15 416:13 417:18
14 1:21 7:16 9:3 17 7:18 45:3,13 1950s 354:23 1971 117:24 2
12:4 151:20 150:14 152:17 1954 472:18,20 218:20 2 1:7 7:9 17:19
171:24 172:3,5 154:14 167:8 1955 170:17,22 1972 418:7 28:16 29:23
172:7 173:24 167:10,25 1958 331:17 1975 231:20 30:6,11,12
202:19 204:16 169:19 170:10 375:19 511:6 232:3 233:1 31:12,13 33:10
204:21,22 171:17 222:2 1959 375:4 235:2 33:23 38:14
211:17,19 239:12,19 196 328:19 1976 306:7 45:19 50:2,16
212:7,9,12 240:21 241:16 1960s 192:21 420:21 50:20 51:15
221:19 253:13 246:4 255:5,8 1963 152:1,13 1977 18:13 54:22 56:1
275:18 277:15 262:13,23 156:15 158:25 472:12 58:3 60:7,23
278:18 279:10 270:1,4 278:8 171:8 178:23 1978 31:14,21 63:8 64:8,14
279:12,15,16 278:11,11,15 186:3,11 382:1 33:11 91:23 65:20 68:11,14
279:20 348:2 278:20,23,25 1965 20:3,8,10 100:5 364:20 68:19,20,22
414:12 525:20 279:2,4 280:19 25:10 113:1 421:19 69:8 71:25
526:20 289:23 290:2 115:6 130:5 1979 314:17 73:2,23,24
14th 348:9 293:9 295:22 135:1 138:21 437:14 77:4 80:8,15
14.0 274:11 337:12 344:11 139:24 147:4 1980 354:15 82:13 85:6
418:20 419:1 381:9 390:11 183:15 201:23 424:23 487:7 86:12 88:13,14
14.5 412:14 409:22 424:6 246:3 251:17 1981 80:24 89:5,7 92:6
413:6 428:10 443:22 259:10 304:12 1982 425:16 94:21 96:8
14.6 182:20 17-A 187:20 306:17 332:24 1984 362:10 98:12,23
140 7:15 17.5 261:24 342:9,12 472:9 106:22 115:14
15 1:22 7:17 262:7 344:22 348:3 1986 427:9 115:23 116:3,9
9:13 218:13,18 18 7:18 161:10 358:14 396:25 1987 265:18 116:12,22,24
224:23 225:8 202:24 221:24 518:13,14 328:20 382:21 117:1,3,20
270:7,12,13 277:16,17 1966 99:6 101:18 385:23 387:5 145:23 148:17
271:8,22 278:8 285:5,15 214:4 255:19 387:14,24 149:4 157:19
277:15 280:2,6 285:17,24 256:15 263:25 1988 319:7 325:8 166:11 167:8
280:11,14 286:4 290:7 265:20,23 350:4 169:20 170:9
288:23 290:5 291:19,22 281:21 293:23 1990 349:4 171:4 177:3
417:6 423:23 423:1,5,11 333:13 374:11 351:25 352:17 183:2 188:12
425:3 435:9 424:3 425:7 376:8 472:23 353:5,9,14 190:21,25
526:20 527:19 18.795 336:11 474:7 523:6 1990s 174:23 192:2,3 193:25
528:20 180 275:1,7,9 1967 194:1 199:5 1991 307:11 194:25 195:8
15th 357:5 485:2 19 7:19 148:12 210:23 231:25 1993 381:9 195:14 196:7
152 313:12 167:4 251:19 255:21 294:22 382:12 196:21 197:5

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213:11 215:5 2s 200:3 448:12 450:5 226:2 271:10 298 7:20 342:8
216:2 220:1 2,000 506:8 472:4,8 474:24 302:21,24
222:18 237:9 521:5,6,9,17 478:5 379:6,21 385:8 3
238:3 239:17 521:18 522:8 2003 106:9 385:11 3 7:10 30:6,15,17
240:4,16,22 522:12 2004 80:24 230-something 31:5 33:22
241:16 245:1 2,200 492:4 429:20 119:23 53:8 54:2
248:8 251:4 2-C 350:6 2004.65 460:2 2300 4:22 5:8 83:19 91:22
253:23 256:25 2-1 50:21 2005 233:15 231 139:17 140:6 112:25 177:24
257:3 262:14 2-1-2 453:6 251:20 287:15 140:15 141:13 195:15,22
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278:15 280:13 2-4 51:15,18 353:5,9,14 148:24 154:15 257:10 280:10
280:18 281:6 2-5 53:18 431:4,9,18,20 175:13 220:22 281:15 291:23
281:18 286:16 2-5-5 459:7 432:2 439:13 24 7:21 226:11 293:1 294:1
293:11,15 2-6 53:1 448:18 306:2,4 419:16 296:24 303:16
295:21 298:21 2-8-6 462:2 2006 298:3 311:1 24099 407:3 313:1 342:2,17
303:13 304:6 2-8-7 462:10 360:23 431:24 248 7:17 367:17,19
304:10 308:18 2-9 53:8 448:18 464:9 25 7:22 314:3,5 368:2,10,12,15
316:14 318:14 2.1 360:22 465:13 468:4 314:12 351:25 383:16 400:14
326:8 329:25 20 7:19 43:1 475:1 354:15 455:24 462:17
333:21 334:9 45:5,12,22 2007 1:21,22 7:5 250 24:13 463:6,17 465:1
338:20 340:20 163:2 167:9 9:3,13 12:4 2504 28:1 466:6 468:17
358:20 362:11 222:15 240:17 98:24 136:3 253 224:16 3-1 54:6 60:6
378:8 380:12 245:20,22 348:9 357:5 255 7:18 3-11 56:13 60:10
384:21 386:24 288:13,16,18 371:1 435:9 255.10 224:16 60:11 61:3
386:24 390:10 288:21 296:8 485:3 525:20 26 7:22 319:4 3-259 331:17
405:24 406:1 308:2 328:18 526:20 527:19 357:19 379:11 3-7 56:14
417:21 418:8 349:4 419:16 528:20 443:17 444:19 3-9 61:3
420:23,25 507:1 2009 311:24 444:24 446:3 30 1:16 6:7 7:10
421:17 422:1,3 20.5 427:15 2011 310:23 2600 4:18 7:24 10:15
423:2,5 424:18 428:4,5 311:2,7 395:4 269 254:9,18 11:16,19 15:24
425:2 442:6,14 200 29:18 180:16 440:13 447:7 27 7:23 139:24 16:15,20 91:18
442:15 444:4 204:2 408:9 203 16:3 170:25 319:4 104:23 106:8
445:11 446:2 492:3 20530 2:9 328:7 331:7,9 112:19 152:1
451:22 452:11 2000 22:21,22 21 7:20 199:5 331:13 342:9 203:24 205:16
453:11 455:18 24:22 91:19 292:17 293:4 443:17 444:19 219:19 297:12
458:5,18 95:3 241:19 298:13,20 444:24 446:3 333:12 344:2,8
461:22 462:22 287:15,18 299:6,18 358:7 28 7:23 175:12 345:25 346:2
463:5,16 288:8 388:12 382:21 432:8 214:4 333:5,7 346:10 433:8
464:24 466:2 389:17 522:1 211 328:17 333:7 360:23 435:16 448:12
469:2 470:19 20001 5:4 212 7:16 365:24 450:5 472:4
475:19 477:6 2001 301:17,24 218 7:17 2800 3:5 474:24 478:5
485:24 493:13 344:12 388:12 22 7:20 239:9,13 286 7:18,19 507:1 516:1
493:19 495:3 389:4 240:23 245:15 288 7:19 300 24:13
504:22 505:17 2002 18:7 24:6 250:23,25 29 7:9,24 293:23 301 7:20

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297:12 306:7 391 8:10 424 8:15 394:7,15 401:1 420:17,19
314:17 348:20 399 8:10 425 3:8 8:16 423:4 432:23 59 8:15 421:4,8
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314 7:22 4 428 8:17 460:17 463:23
319 7:22 4 7:10 46:5,6 43 8:7 295:24 465:12 467:14 6
32 7:25 354:10 61:13 91:13,16 377:21,23 469:19 6 1:16 6:7 7:11
354:12,12 92:16 94:19 384:16 485:8 5-3-2 467:3 10:15 11:16,19
33 8:2 177:6 115:4 280:5,6 492:8 5-5 470:22 15:24 16:15
357:16 304:19 313:1 435 9:20,21 5.8 189:9,15 40:19 69:21
331 7:23 385:22 386:8 44 8:7 378:22,24 205:2 268:18 104:18,20
333 7:23 386:12 387:7 379:2 381:2 5:15 355:19 105:10 107:5
34 8:2 178:13 457:4 463:20 45 8:8 119:9 50 8:10 242:2,18 112:19 130:7
360:18,21 464:10,15,16 179:3 296:6 242:23 296:17 131:15 225:7,9
340 7:24 467:11 468:23 381:2,4 396:14,16,18 258:15,16,16
3412 435:3 4,000 505:19,21 4500 5:12 399:12,15,18 258:17 271:22
344 7:24 506:4 508:11 46 8:8 179:4,7 50s 142:21 273:14 279:16
3445 4:9 516:8 521:7,14 180:7 382:17 151:17 476:1 303:14 335:22
348 7:25 4-A 67:19 382:19 503:19 382:17 435:17
35 8:3 224:16 4-1 61:14 68:4 47 8:9 99:10 500 312:18 316:9 448:23 449:7
362:6 4-2 65:5 67:18 100:1 108:25 496:10,17 449:18 450:1
354 7:25 67:19,21 181:16 365:3 500-1 29:19 452:17 461:10
357 8:2 9:16,17 4-2-A 62:12 385:8,18,22 503 8:18 464:1 467:19
36 8:3 364:6,8,11 4-3 68:1 491:3 506 3:16 468:3 469:19
494:12,15 4-4 67:19 474 8:17 507 8:18 471:19 472:3
497:13 4.3 261:23 48 8:9 388:4,7 51 8:11 384:3 474:23 475:11
360 8:2 276:23 4.7 261:23 485 9:23,24 399:15 402:17 477:21 478:4
362 8:3 40 8:5 119:8 49 8:10 391:1,3 402:22 6-A 41:9
364 8:3 156:19 157:8,9 394:4 510 8:19 6-1 69:21 70:1
365 8:4 157:9,12,14,16 514 8:19,20 71:17
37 8:4 365:18,20 157:20 158:9 5 52 8:11 406:11 6-2 72:2,3 93:16
365:23 176:2 238:16 5 7:5,11 69:15 406:14,19 95:19
374 8:4 251:22,25 98:13 115:19 520 112:8 6-2-2 468:12
375 8:5,5 252:18,25 117:3,17 5213 4:14 6-3 73:13,14
376 8:6,6 375:15 496:12 143:19 145:9 53 8:12 411:1,3 93:17
377 8:7 400 4:18 148:5 178:14 54 8:12 415:3,5,5 6-4 73:24
379 8:7 402 8:11 205:4,4 214:15 546 4:4 6-5-4 470:23
38 8:4 374:6,8 406 8:11 220:6 226:11 55 8:13 119:11 6-5-6 470:24
375:7 41 8:6 376:4,6 241:18 242:8 185:1 416:4,8 6-7 258:13
380 72:19 80:23 411 8:12 243:14 244:6 416:16 6.3 96:23
80:24 277:9 415 8:12 250:10,12,18 550 2:3 60 8:15 187:15
381 8:8 416 8:13 279:25 292:4 56 8:13 384:4 254:19 384:16
382 8:8 417 8:13 313:1 330:12 417:12,14,17 385:11 424:12
3838 3:21 418 8:14 330:21 334:12 57 8:14 142:22 492:8

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477:13 503:19 461:15 467:19 978 265:14
601 5:7 7th 218:20 8 98 7:11 120:15
61 8:16 188:11 7-10 83:1 8 7:13,13 83:16 148:13 167:5,6
265:10 425:13 7-6 75:22,23 83:16 114:8,14 246:12,13
425:15,15 81:20 95:6 136:24 137:1,3 247:2 490:15
610 2:16 7-9 81:18 177:10 261:15 99 230:11,11,12
62 8:16 426:20 70 203:23 231:2 271:9 279:10 389:3
426:24 283:2 506:25 282:15 323:24
622 412:13 515:25 403:19 407:1
63 8:17 159:5,7 70s 95:1 143:23 461:19
189:5 264:24 192:21 264:18 8-14 83:18 84:4
428:19,24 421:11 8-16 85:11
63.77 375:21 70/30 345:17 8-3 84:4
376:21 346:8 8.0 270:25
64 8:17 189:17 70001 4:14 80 274:20,24
428:19 474:1,4 70002 3:21 4:10 506:25
65 8:18 24:1 70065 435:4 80s 246:10
130:7 135:3 70068 3:9 460:15
230:16 267:3 70072 485:9 800 4:9
503:15,22 701 1:20 2:22 807 265:13
650 496:17 12:2 8095N 2:8
66 8:18 230:13 70113 2:13,16 82 118:17 403:12
230:15,21,24 3:13 404:6
257:17 473:17 70123 112:9 85 427:10,11
473:20 491:3 70130 1:21 2:23 855 2:12
507:8,11,17,22 4:19 5:8 86 427:9
67 8:19 201:2 70130-3588 4:5 87 265:13
410:7 510:23 70163 3:5 4:23 89th 139:17
523:7 702-C 7:9 11:21 342:8
68 8:19 159:6 16:25 29:22 89-298 138:12
231:2,2,3 113:15 449:17
232:15 292:17 70471 16:3 9
293:5 513:1 70726 3:16 9 7:14 137:7
68.85 376:21 71 122:2 170:17 144:11 176:12
69 8:20 303:8,14 283:5,7 220:13 224:20
514:4,5 71.2 432:7 225:8,9 271:21
72 232:22 279:6 367:3,7
7 74 18:10 472:13 376:8 511:6
7 7:12 113:13,15 75 122:4 9-A 180:9
113:21 114:9 750 505:6 9.5 223:4 225:3,5
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177:10,12 77 18:12 19:6 90s 246:10
178:10 206:11 118:6 296:11 460:16
258:24 259:21 78 32:14 47:16 90071-2627 2:4
901 5:4

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ARMY CORPS OF ENGINEERS 8/6/2008

UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT 1

1 ALSO PRESENT IN ATTENDANCE (CONTINUED): 1 EXHIBIT INDEX

1 INDEX OF TESTIMONY BY WITNESS 1 MR. O'DONNELL:

1 MR. O'DONNELL: 1 VIDEO OPERATOR:

1 I'm Gary Zwain. I represent the 1 Counsel in the levee cases.

1 Agree to participate? I'm 1 TESTIMONY BY

1 MR. O'DONNELL: 1 Q. Do you have any background in

1 A. On London Avenue. 1 three basic offices. One was the bank

1 A. No. 1 you, okay, and it indicates that you have

1 A. I looked over several binders of 1 A. Not on my list. I have got 2504 is

1 I could tell you what I believe 1 all?

1 from? Is that okay? 1 A. Yes.

1 I would defer back to this manual as general 1 it.

1 A. Yes. 1 more typical."

1 A. Well, it doesn't stay there. 1 A. Semi-compacted is similar to

1 MR. SMITH: 1 A. That's -- That's a generality I

1 Q. Okay. Nor do I. 1 Reach 1 and Reach 2?

1 A. I know the material was placed 1 A. The water side (indicating).

1 EXAMINATION BY MR. O'DONNELL: 1 two days. Page 4-3, there's a section C,

1 Q. That's where -- on the Lake Borgne 1 A. Sometimes it's specified by law.

1 you see down at the bottom of page 6-1 -- 1 A. Yes.

1 particular reaches along a protection line. 1 -- a good clay -- clay material.

1 Q. I have underlined something there 1 A. Yes.

1 Q. So -- It's just a hypothetical, 1 Q. Because of the added weight of the

1 A. Yes. As part of the geotechnical 1 Q. Okay.

1 A. I believe it's the geotechnical 1 design grade level?

1 versus adding dirt? 1 A. That's a geotechnical analysis.

1 THE WITNESS: 1 Q. Okay. And this manual probably

1 Q. Okay? Right? 1 looked over yesterday?

1 Q. Is that the same as the project 1 A. Late '60s, early '70s.

1 Q. Okay. And enlargements are part of 1 Q. I will represent that I believe

1 A. They were definitely involved with 1 Q. That's in Vicksburg?

1 specific area, specific types of projects. 1 A. Used it as a training tool in

26 (Pages 101 to 104)

1 Engineering Manual is to provide a 1 witness, he would not know the answer

27 (Pages 105 to 108)

1 MR. SMITH: 1 MR. O'DONNELL:

1 noon. 1 VIDEO OPERATOR:

28 (Pages 109 to 112)

1 Q. And this is some indications of the 1 1?

29 (Pages 113 to 116)

1 program for a year; took a permanent position 1 A. Dredging.

30 (Pages 117 to 120)

31 (Pages 121 to 124)

1 Q. Okay. Quickly, who is the number 1 A. Yes.

1 responsibilities. 1 Q. But it's no longer there?

32 (Pages 125 to 128)

1 Herr, H E R R. 1 organization are there in the United States?

1 occurred after Katrina? 1 A. That's a good question. Basically

33 (Pages 129 to 132)

1 it's currently General Van Antwerp. 1 Q. So from even before 1965?

34 (Pages 133 to 136)

1 It's Number 8. 1 Q. Okay. And this was the legislation

35 (Pages 137 to 140)

1 yes. 1 characteristics. I think they looked at

1 meteorological conditions reasonably 1 A. I don't know who developed it. It

36 (Pages 141 to 144)

1 extending from the Inner Harbor Canal along 1 approved.

1 white arrow is and then stopping there. 1 A. I do not.

37 (Pages 145 to 148)

1 A. The project, as we discussed 1 report. This was an interim survey that we

1 terminology called "levees". We'll 1 Q. Dated 30 January, 1963?

38 (Pages 149 to 152)