JACKSON V AEG June 3

rd
2013
05/28/13 Please help us!
Paul Gongaware
(Co-CEO of AEG Live Concerts West, This Is It Producer)

Plaintiffs Adverse Witness.


Continued cross examination by Marvin Putnam:



Q. Good morning, Mr. Gongaware.
A. Good morning.
Q. Did you go back on tour?

A. Yeah. I was in Chicago over the weekend, yes.

Q. Welcome back. Shouldn't be too much longer. Two days it will be done, I hope. I want
to tell you where we left off. We were talking about the March 5th announcement at the
02, and then after that you talked about receiving a call from Mr. Jackson in Hyde Park
and then going out and looking at some, I think you called them gags; I may have called
them special effects. You remember that?
A. Yes.
Q. I'm going to continue on from there, if I can. The show schedule. Did you have any
impression as to whether Mr. Jackson was comfortable with the show schedule?
A. Yeah, he was.
Q. How do you know that?
A. I went through all of the dates with him.
Q. I'm going to show you something, if I may. Exhibit 3185.
Mr. Putnam: May I approach the witness, your honor?
Judge: Yes.
Mr. Panish: No objection.
(Putnam exhibits email chain)
Q. Okay. So Mr. Gongaware, you see this is a chain of emails. You had seen some of
these already, the first couple here, and the one on top is one you hadn't seen last week.
And if you recall, this is the one we talked about with the LED Screen and the various
effects. You remember that?
A. Yes.
Q. And then above, there's this one that says to Paul Gongaware. It's also to Michael Amir
from Randy Phillips on the 16th of March. The middle of March. The re line is a forward,
"The artist entrance for today, Sony Studios." Remember you said you were going to
Sony Studios? It says: "Brother Michael, it is also for very important for MJ and Paul
Gongaware to meet today to go through the proposed rehearsal and performance
schedule so that MJ is completely comfortable and confident. I will be back Tuesday
night and would like to meet with MJ at his convenience on Wednesday. Randy." Do you
recall receiving this email?
A. No.

Q. Do you have any doubt that you received it?

A. No. I received it.
Q. Okay. And you talked about the idea that you met with Michael to go through the
schedule. Did you go through both the rehearsal schedule
And the show schedule with him?
A. Yes.
Q. And let me ask you a Question: do you recall that meeting with Mr. Jackson?
A. Yes, I do.
Q. And where did that meeting take place?
A. Center Staging in the production office.
Q. And was anybody else present besides the two of you?
A. Kenny was there, and I think Bugzee was there as well.
Q. Okay. And how did you go through the schedule? I mean, did you give him
something? How did the process work?
A. Well, Bugzee had these big calendars up on the wall with all the dates marked out, and
that's what we used as a basis to start.
Q. And did you change the dates in this meeting in any way?
A. Yes. We changed -- I think it was maybe four shows. Three or four.
Q. Let me talk about this for a Moment. You were shown last week by Mr. Panish exhibit
123-1.
Mr. Panish: Can I see that for a Moment?
Mr. Putnam: May I approach again, your honor?
Judge: Yes.
Q. Here you are, sir. (showing document.) And you will see, this is what you were shown
last week. It was an email between you and a Kelly Distefano later in the month, March
23, 2009, and a response as well. And this is the one where the idea was to change the
coloring on the calendar. Do you remember this?
A. Yes.
Q. Do you remember if you were preparing this calendaring for that meeting? That same
meeting?
A. I probably was, yeah.
Q. But as you sit here today, you don't recall?

A. I don't recall.
Q. Okay. And you remember Mr. Panish asked you if you were trying to fool Mr. Jackson
by changing? Were you trying to fool Mr. Jackson by changing the coloring on the
calendar?
A. No. I was just trying to make it clear, trying to get it just the way I wanted it.
Q. And in fact, the way you described it, you said you put up big calendars on the wall?
A. Right.
Q. And then did you go through the schedule?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you also do that for the rehearsal schedule as well?
A. No. The rehearsal schedule was just a pretty basic outline. We had Center Staging,
then we were going to go to the Forum, and we were going to go to Staples Center and
then on to the 02.
Q. Whereas -- did you have specific dates already for the shows you were showing Mr.
Jackson?
A. For the shows, yes.
Q. Now, let me ask you a little bit about this. Mr. Phillips says -- I'll -- just to remind
everyone, Michael amir is Mr. Jackson's assistant is that correct?
A. Personal assistant, yes.
Q. Now, here it says that Mr. Phillips thought it was important for you and Mr. Jackson to
go through the proposed rehearsals and performance schedule. Did you think that was
important as well?
A. Sure.
Q. And why is that?
A. Wanted him to be comfortable with the scheduling. Wanted him to know what it was,
and if he couldn't do it, to say so.
Q. And did he say to you that he couldn't do the schedule?
A. Well, we changed, I think, four dates in total.
Q. But did he seem happy with the schedule, though?
A. Yeah. Yeah. After that, he was fine.

Q. Now -- so you ultimately changed the schedule somewhat. Tell me about that change.
What were the changes, if you recall?
A. The first show -- Michael wanted more time at the 02 to rehearse the entire show, and
we weren't going to have some gags in until we got to the 02. So he wanted to feel
comfortable with everything. And there was only a couple of days that we had
scheduled, so we moved the first show back five days, and throughout the schedule, I
think we moved three more to the end.
Q. And do you remember whether those changes happened at this meeting with Mr.
Jackson or at some later meeting, or do you know?
A. This is where we decided on it.
Q. Okay. And ultimately did the schedule change again, or was that the only change to
the schedule?
A. That was the only change.
Q. Now, why would you move some to the end and keep some at the beginning?
A. Well, the first show, I thought the people who bought the tickets to the first show
should go to the first show. So we moved that one back, and then the rest of them were
just other shows, so it wasn't as critical.
Q. And do you remember when the first show moved from?
A. I don't know. From like the 7th to the 12th. Something like that.
Q. Now, do you recognize this, sir? (showing document)
A. Yeah. That's the revised schedule.
Q. And do you recognize it as actually representing the dates?
A. Yes.
Judge: Are you talking about rehearsal dates or show dates? Like, it says tour dates.
Gongaware: Show dates.
Judge: Okay.
Q. Just so I say it correctly. So the first show is ultimately scheduled for July 13th?
A. Yes.

Q. And then a couple days are blank, and then 16. Does that mean the next show is the
16th?
A. Yes.
Q. So if I continue on for this, it appears in the month of July, there are how many shows?
A. Eight.
Q. And none of them are back to back; correct?
A. No. There's always at least a day off.
Q. And then how many shows did you have in August?
A. Ten shows in August.
Q. And sometimes as much as a week between shows? 3rd to the 10th?
A. Yeah. Six days, at least, off.
Q. And then how many shows in September?
A. Nine in September.
Q. Okay. So in the first three months, July, August and September, that would be 27
shows?
A. Yes.
Q. And then it looks like there are no shows for October, November and December; is
that correct?
A. Right.
Q. And they pick up again in January?
A. Right.
Q. And then how many shows do you have in January?
A. Ten in January.
Q. And, again, none are back to back?

A. Right.
Q. And then how many shows for February?
A. Same. Ten shows.
Q. And how many in March?
A. Last three in March.
Q. So you have 23 shows after the 3-month break?
A. Yes.
Q. And why was there that break of three months in between the two sets of shows?
A. The 02 had other events in there. We couldn't get in.
Q. And did you have any understanding as to what Mr. Jackson would be doing during
that 3-month break?
A. No.
Q. Now, let me ask you, in your opinion, having worked with artists before, is that a
rigorous schedule?
A. No. Not at all.
Q. And why not?
A. Well, on History, we did 10 to 12 a month, but that was moving from city to city, from
country to country. This one, we weren't moving at all. We were staying in London, and
he went back to his castle every night. He would have.
Q. Did Mr. Jackson express any concern about, for example, there are certain points
where he has to perform every other night? Did he express a concern about that?
A. He was okay with it.
Q. Now, you talked about Mr. Jackson on the History Tour, but that was 10 years before.
He was now a 50-year-old man. Were you concerned about his age?
A. No.
Q. Why not?

A. He seemed great to me. He wasn't -- didn't -- just didn't concern me.

Q. Did you have --
A. I mean, it's so much easier. It's like less density and not moving.
Q. Why is the "not moving" important?
A. Oh, it's just hard to pack up, go -- you know, go somewhere, get on a plane, or
whatever, get off a plane, go back to a hotel, unpack, try to rest, do shows. It's pretty
grueling when you go on the road constantly.
Q. And for this he was staying in London the whole time?
A. Yes.
Q. All right. Now, do other artists Michael's age, Mr. Jackson's age, do they go on tours
like this?
A. Not too many had the ability just to go and stay at a residency for 50 shows. But, yes.
This is common for artists to do, just usually in different cities.
Q. So after you had gone through the schedule and, ultimately, with Mr. Jackson, came up
with a revised schedule, did it change again? Was there any further changes after you set
up on this schedule?
A. No.
Q. And make sure I understand correctly. And why was it ultimately that you changed
those five dates? Was it because of Mr. Jackson's health?
A. No. No. He wanted more time to rehearse the show in the 02 where it was going to
actually play.
Q. And was anybody involved in that decision other than Mr. Jackson?
A. Kenny Ortega, yeah.
Q. And was it Mr. Ortega's desire to move the shows as well?
A. Yes.
Q. Did anybody not want to move the shows?
A. No. Everybody was good with it.

Q. Now, let's talk a little bit about the rehearsal schedule. We talked about the show
movements. You'd indicated that there were -- last week that there were various venues
you went for various periods of time. You recall that?
A. Yes.
Q. All right. And I'm going to show you another demonstrative.
Q. I'm going to show you another demonstrative, if I can, sir (showing document). And,
sir, does this represent the various venues for rehearsals?
A. Yes.
Q. All right. Now, let me go through it real quickly. So first you're at Center Staging;
correct?
A. Right.
Q. And you talked about the idea that there would be principally music and dancing, and
that's the venue over here in Burbank?
A. Right.
Q. And then the next is the Forum in Inglewood?
A. Right.
Q. You said that would be music and dancing, and you'd added some production
elements?
A. Right.
Q. And then you'd move on to the Staples Center here downtown, and there you would
also add additional production elements; right?
A. Right.
Q. And then ultimately you'd be at the 02 in London?
A. That's right.
Q. And so these are the rehearsal venues that we're talking about running from March to
July?
A. Yes. I called this the rehearsal scheduling.
Q. Excuse me, sir?

A. This is what I would call the rehearsal schedule.

Q. All right. Let me run through that, if I can. Do you know whether Mr. Jackson had a
daily rehearsal schedule?
A. No. It was up to him.
Q. Well, for example, you know, say that the call sheet, or a piece of paper that ran
through what Mr. Jackson would do each day, did you ever see such a thing?
A. No.
Q. Did you have any involvement in the creation of such a thing for Mr. Jackson?
A. No.
Q. Did anyone ever show you some kind of daily sheet as to what he needed to do each
day?
A. No. I think just he and Kenny decided what they were going to do.
Q. And what do you mean by that?
A. They would decide when he was going to rehearse and where, and so forth.
Q. And why would they be the ones that decided that? Why wouldn't you be involved in
that?
A. I had nothing do with that. That was between Kenny and Michael.
Q. And why would that be between Kenny and Michael?
A. Kenny was the director, and he was -- so he was keeping the rehearsals going, keeping
the keeping everything moving.
Q. Now, was -- to your understanding, was Mr. Jackson required to attend rehearsals?
A. No. He didn't have to.
Q. And why do you say that?
A. It wasn't part of his deal.
Q. Well, you said you hadn't seen his deal. How do you know that?
A. It was just one -- we never have -- we never require artists to attend rehearsals.

Q. Well, in your four decades doing this, do you recall an artist ever being required to
attend rehearsals?
A. No.
Q. And why would that be? Why wouldn't you want to require an artist to attend a
rehearsal?
A. Well, the artist is responsible for their show. It's up to them to figure out how to get
there.
Q. What were your expectations about how much Mr. Jackson would rehearse going into
the This Is It tour?
A. I didn't have any expectations.
Q. None at all?
A. No.
Q. And why is that?
A. Well, I mean, I saw in that third leg of the History tour where he didn't rehearse at all,
not once, and went into Bangkok at an outdoor show. And it was like 100 degrees, and
there was 100 percent humidity. It was just difficult conditions. Outdoors. And he nailed
it. So when it was kind of game time, if you want to call it that, he was going to show up.
Q. The -- there was an email, and I'm not going to pull it back up. I'll see if you can recall
it. Do you recall an email last week where you indicated you thought Mr. Jackson was
lazy?
A. Yeah, I remember.
Q. Does that have anything to do with his not going to rehearsals?
A. Yeah. I mean, I probably -- unfortunate choice of words, you know, but, yeah. He
didn't like to rehearse, and it was up to him whether he was going to do it or not, and I
wasn't ever really concerned whether he would or not.
Q. So one more time to make sure I got it. But why weren't you concerned, sir? I mean,
you have millions and millions of dollars that you're investing in something. You had no

concern about him

not going to rehearsals?
A. No. He was -- when the house lights went out, he was going to show up.
Q. Do you have an understanding as to how many rehearsals Mr. Jackson missed in --
let's take at Center Staging?
A. I don't know.
Q. Do you have an understanding as to how many rehearsals Mr. Jackson missed at the
Forum?
A. No.
Q. Now, did -- was there ever a time where anyone came to you at Center Staging and
said that they were concerned that Mr. Jackson wasn't coming to rehearsals?
A. I think Kenny did.
Q. And what do you recall him saying, if you do?
Mr. Panish: Well, it's hearsay.
Judge: Sustained.
Q. How did you respond to his concern? Did you try to get Mr. Jackson to come to more
rehearsals?
A. No. It wasn't my place to tell him that.
Q. Do you remember being concerned yourself?
A. No, I wasn't.
Q. And that's because of the reasons you've already told us?
A. Yes.
Q. All right. Moving on to -- moving into April now. The -- do you have any
understanding as to whether at this point Mr. Jackson and Mr. Ortega had put together the
creative elements of the show?
A. No. They were never finished.

Judge: Sorry. I missed the time frame.

Mr. Putnam: I said we're moving into April.
Judge: okay. As we're moving into April, what?
Mr. Putnam: Whether Mr. Ortega and Mr. Jackson had finished putting together
the creative elements of the show.
Judge: Okay. And the answer was "no"?
Gongaware: They were never finished. They were always working on it.
Judge: Okay.
Q. What do you mean by that?
A. Well, you start with the big picture, and you start focusing down more and more on
details until you get it exactly right.
Q. And what was your role in this? I mean, they're putting together the creative elements.
What were you doing?
A. Well, in addition to administering the tour, I was also -- when they would come up
with ideas, I'd have to try to figure out with my guys, figure out how to do them, and
whether they were practical; how to make them work. That sort of thing. How -- what
they would cost.
Q. Was it always possible to execute the ideas they came up with?
A. No.
Q. I'm going to try to go through some of the specific elements of the show --
A. Okay.
Q. -- and see how that worked. How was the show going to start?
A. I think what we -- there was going to be -- Michael was going to be dressed in an LED
suit with -- it's like -- sort of like a television, but they developed kind of a flexible form
of LEDs at that time, so they were going to make a suit out of it. Michael would be inside
the suit. And flashing on him would be all kinds of video images. And playing on the
screen would be some -- I think Kenny called it glimpses and flashes. It was a brief
movie about just things that happened in history. Then Michael would be lowered down

from the grid. He would be lowered down onto the stage in this outfit.
Q. So just make sure to get the visual right. You have the stage, and Mr. Jackson would
be lowered in this LED suit?
A. Yes.
Q. And when you say, "LED," that's the stuff like for a TV?
A. That one might be LED (showing document).
Q. Okay. And so it's something that would be visually displaying things on him?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, did you -- whose idea was this suit?
A. Michael and Kenny.
Q. And did you have any role after they came up with the idea on this suit?
A. Just trying to figure it out, how to do it, and what it would cost.
Q. Did you have a name for it?
A. I called it Moon Man. I think Kenny called it Light Man.
Q. I'm going to show you a clip from the This Is It movie, which is 12927. And this is a
clip that what the movie calls, anyway, "the Light Man."
(Putnam plays video clip from TII)
Q. Does that clip depict the idea that you were just talking about for the light man?
A. Yeah. It wasn't in yet, and we didn't have all the -- we didn't have it installed in the
show yet.
Q. I was going to ask that, because some of the clips we look at are things for rehearsals
or whatnot, but this one isn't. Can you explain why?
A. It wasn't done yet.
Q. Was it in the works?
A. Yes.
Q. And as far as you knew, was it going to be in the opening of the show?
A. Yes. Things are always subject to change with those two, but, yes, that was my
understanding.

Q. What do you mean by that?

A. Well, they're constantly working on the show, and they look at it. Maybe something
they don't like, or something they want to change. So it's just a constant dance, I guess
you'd say.
Q. And was the idea always to have the light man or moon man, depending on what you
call him, come down from the center and come into the stage?
A. Well, the original idea was to float him out over the audience and bring him back, but
we weren't able to do it. There was too much stuff above the stage that would have
interfered, the lighting and all that kind of stuff, and we weren't able to get him out over
the audience and bring him back, so we just had to lower him down.
Q. Were you excited over this idea?
A. Yeah.
Q. Now, you said that originally the idea was to bring him out over the crowd, but that
didn't work. Did you come up with another device that could do that?
A. Well, there was -- to get him out over the crowd, we used, like, a cherry picker.
Q. And we've seen some footage of a cherry picker before, but let me ask you: what is a
cherry picker?
A. It was actually built into the stage. It was the stage deck, and it would rise up, and
Michael would be over the end -- at the end of it and go over the crowd. Up and down
and over the crowd.
Q. I'm going to show you another clip of the movie called, "Cherry Picker."
(Putnam plays another video clip from TII)
Q. By Mr. Putnam: is that the cherry picker you were talking about, sir?
A. Yes.
Q. I'm noting that Mr. Ortega repeatedly asked, talks about "For safety reasons, Mr.
Jackson, please hold on," et cetera. Does that surprise you?
A. No. No. Kenny was very careful.
Q. What do you mean by that?

A. Uhm, he was -- he always had safety in mind. He was always concerned about safety
and about his artist.
Q. And in addition, Mr. Jackson talks about -- I can't tell what it means, so I'm asking
you. He talks about the idea that that's a Mid height, and he talks to Mr. Ortega, and is he
saying he wants to go higher, or he doesn't like heights?
A. No. He wants to go higher.
Q. Now, were there any issues on getting the cherry picker done for the show?
A. Well, originally I tried -- Tina Turner had one similar, and I tried to get that one,
because it would be less expensive. But the way it was built, the base was too big, and we
couldn't really fit it under the stage with all the other gags we had, so we had to build our
own.
Q. How did you know that Tina Turner had one?
A. I was on tour with her.
Q. Okay. I'm going to show you an exhibit. And you'll see it's a Series of emails (showing
document). You've seen a version of this, but not with everything, so I've added all the
emails here. See, it's a back-and-forth between yourself and Mr. Ortega?
A. Yes.
Q. And at the top, what I'm going to reveal that hasn't been shown before, it's the one
from April 24th, 2009. You see this one at the top? (showing document)
A. Yes.
Q. And I'm going to go through it, and it says: "We had an enormous day with MJ
reviewing all the content for the video portions of the show." what are the video portions
of the show?
A. I think in this case he was talking about the films.
Q. "About the films." what do you mean?
A. Was "Smooth Criminal," "Earth Song," "Thriller." plus there were other elements as
well that weren't going to be in 3D. I think that's the stuff. The things we were creating
for the show.
Q. When you say 3D, creating for the show, also called films, what are they exactly?
What were you talking about? Something to be used during the show?

A. Yes.
Q. How was it going to be used?
A. Would be integrated into songs. In those three songs, they would, you know, play a
part in the presentation of the song.
Q. Would they display it in some way?
A. Yeah. On the big screen.
Q. When you say, "big screen," what do you mean?
A. 90 feet high, 30 feet high, and 3D capable.
Q. And was that going to be at the back of the stage?
A. Yes.
Q. And when you say, "3D capable," what do you mean?
A. If you put on glasses, and you programmed it with 3D content, it would be a 3D
screen, even though it was LED
Q. And so -- were portions of the show then going to be in 3D?
A. Yes.
Q. And were you -- people were going to take glasses in as they came in?
A. Everyone got glasses when they came in, yes.
Q. Had you ever done that before on a tour?
A. No.
Q. Now, it goes on to say: "My brains are like mashed potatoes. We hit on many of the
other aspects of the show as well. Mike Cotten and Travis were present in the meeting all
day. Rob was wonderful, a Great listener and has some good ideas as well. MJ has big
dreams here. 'Thriller,' 'Earth Song' and 'Smooth Criminal' are ambitious and will require
immediate start." now, are those the three elements that you indicated were being made
into movies, films?
A. Yeah. There were a few other parts as well, but these were going to be the 3D ones,
yes.
Q. And then it goes on to say: "MJ has personally signed off on many of the creative
elements and plans for the show. We should get going on bids and building asap if we're
going to have them for the Forum."
What did you understand that to mean?
A. Uhm, we were very short on time. We had to get going right away.

Q. And when he says that "MJ has personally signed off on many of the creative elements
and plans for the show," do you have an understanding of what this meant?
Mr. Panish: No foundation.
Mr. Putnam: He's been asked repeatedly, your honor.
Judge: No. Overruled.
A. Yeah. This is the stuff that Michael wanted in the show. Yeah.
Q. And similarly, it says, "MJ has big dreams here." Did you have an understanding as to
what he meant there?
A. Yeah. He wanted to do the biggest, best show ever. Live show.
Q. And was that your ambition as well?
A. It's whatever he wanted.
Q. I'm going to ask about a couple names here, too, only because we haven't seen them
before. Who is Mike Cotten?
A. Production designer. He would take the creative ideas, make big drawings of them, try
to figure out how they would look. And from that we would try to figure out how to build
them.
Q. Did you work with him before?
A. I think he was on a previous Michael Jackson tour, yes.
Q. Do you know if Mr. Jackson worked with him before?
A. I think he did, yeah.
Q. Do you have an understanding as to whether Mr. Jackson chose Mr. Cotten to help
with the This Is It tour?
A. Yeah, he did.
Q. And do you have an understanding as to whether Mr. Jackson chose Kenny Ortega to
work on the This Is It tour?
A. Yes, he did.
Q. And before it talks about "Travis." do you have an understanding as to who chose
Travis Payne for the This Is It tour?

A. Michael did.
Q. And who is Rob?
A. He had a company called stimulated, which were -- I think we ended up using him, or
his company, to actually make the mini movies.
Q. All right. Going to move on from there, if I can, we were talking about Mr. Payne
there, so I want to ask you a question about exhibit 663-182.
Q. And, again, this is a series of emails (showing document). Initially it's from Mr. Ortega
to "gentlemen," and then there's a response from you to Mr. Ortega where you're CC'ing
F. Dileo. And who is F. Dileo?
A. Frank Dileo, Michael's manager.
Q. And the date is April 27th, 2009?
A. Yes.
Q. It says, "Travis." the "importance" is "normal." you see that?
A. Yes.
Q. And let me go through it a little bit, if I may. It says: "Gentlemen. Respectfully, I feel it
is necessary for me to chime in with regard to Travis Payne and his overall importance to
MJ and the AEG organizations. I'm aware you've been having some difficulty in finishing
up his deal." Do you recall there being some difficulty in finishing up Mr. Payne's deal?
A. Yes.
Q. What was the difficulty?
A. His agent was being very difficult and kept changing her mind about what she wanted.
Q. Goes on to say: "in the beginning, Travis and Lavelle" -- talked about Lavelle last
week. Who was he again, sir?
A. Lavelle Smith. He was a choreographer.
Q. So: "in the beginning Travis and Lavelle were invited to partner with MJ to
choreograph the show. Paul and I agreed, as it became increasingly obvious during the
early stage of the tour development, that it would serve MJ and the greater good of the
team to eliminate Lavelle and give the entire responsibility to Travis. Since then, Travis
and MJ have been in a fantastic creative role re mounting classic numbers and inventing
new choreography. I have always felt Travis was the right artist and the only artist to
entrust with this responsibility.

"Following the decision to drop Lavelle, which was mutual, I decided that because of
Travis' incredible and versatile talent, that I also wanted him to be my associate director.
This was made clear weeks ago. Travis has been working with MJ and I in the overall
development of the entire production. Travis' input has impacted the set design, lighting
design, choreography, wardrobe, music and video effects and the overall staging of the
show. Travis is honorable, professional, loyal, hard-working, dedicated, and one of the
most creative artists I've worked with in the business."
In terms of what Mr. Ortega said in terms of Mr. Travis' input and impact, goes on to list
there, would you agree that Mr. Payne was having an impact on those various areas?
A. Travis was an important guy, yes. He was very creative.
Q. And he goes on to talk about Mr. Payne being: "honorable, professional, loyal, hard-
working, dedicated, and one of the most creative artists I've worked with in the business."
Would you agree with that?
A. Yeah. I would say all those things, yes.
Q. Goes on to say: "I would consider Travis to be unquestionably one of the most
important assets of the show. Without him we would be climbing enormous obstacles to
realize the work. In considering the other talent for this position, in my opinion, there is
no one else that could handle the creative responsibilities with greater imagination or
know-how. Travis has and will continue to deliver. "MJ has an amazing partner in Travis.
I ask you to please consider this as you continue forward with his deal. Outside of MJ,
Travis is the most important -- is my most important colleague in the creative
process." Talks about sharing his opinions, et cetera. Do you remember this issue arising
about Mr. Payne's deal?
A. Yes.
Q. And if you go to your response above, it says: "KO" -- this is April 27, 2009. "thanks
for the summary. Spot on. No need to waste time discussing why we are here now and
why this is taking so long. It doesn't matter. This is not AEG money, it's MJ's money, so it
takes a while to get a consensus and approvals every time things change." What did you
mean by that?
A. Michael was ultimately responsible for the production, the costs of the production.
And it was his money, and he needed to make money on this tour, so we had to be very
careful and cost-conscious.
Q. And what kind of money are we talking about here? What money was at issue? Was

there a Salary at issue?

A. Yes.
Q. And whose salary was that?
A. I believe Travis'.
Q. And when you say, "It's not AEG money," what do you mean?
A. Well, we were advancing the money, but ultimately Michael would pay it when the
shows happened, and it was his money.
Q. Goes on to say: "I removed myself from these negotiations last week. This one is with
Frank to get done." What did you mean by that?
A. I guess I reached an impasse with the agent, and Frank took it.
Q. And who is Frank again?
A. Frank is Michael's manager.
Q. So was Mr. Dileo now working on this?
A. Yes.
Q. Do you know if a Deal was ultimately ever reached with Mr. Payne?
A. Yeah. We did get a Deal done.
Q. Now, were Mr. Jackson's managers -- Mr. Dileo was one of his managers; correct?
A. Yes.
Q. Is it your understanding whether they were aware or not of the costs of the tour?
A. Yeah. They were constantly aware of it, yes.
Q. Why do you say that?
A. Because I talked to them a lot about it.
Q. And when you talked to them about it, how did you talk to them about it? Did you call
them? What did you do?
A. Frank was there every day, and Dr. Tohme, when he was around, he was there a lot,
and I would just sit down, and we'd talk it out.
Q. And when you say, "they were there," where is "there"?
A. At rehearsals.
Q. And so this is late April. What is the date on it now? April 27th?
Did a Time come where you learned of a Man named Dr. Conrad Murray?

A. Yes.
Q. When did that first happen?
A. I'm not sure of the exact date. It was you know, I think around here somewhere.
Q. Okay. And the -- how did you come to learn the name Dr. Conrad Murray?
A. I heard it from Michael.
Q. Tell me about that. What did you hear?
A. Well, he came up to me and said that he wanted to take Dr. Murray to London as his
personal physician.
Q. Where did this occur?
A. Center Staging.
Q. So -- and I'm sorry to bore you with incredible detail, but I want all of the detail of it,
if you would. So you're at Center Staging. Do you remember where you were at Center
Staging?
A. Not exactly.
Q. And did you approach Mr. Jackson, or did he approach you?
A. He came to me, said he wanted Dr. Murray.
Q. And tell me, as best you can recall, exactly what he said to you.
A. Well, he said he wanted Dr. Murray in London. And I said to him, "why don't we get a
doctor over there? Someone who's licensed over there, knows all the best people. If
there's a Problem, he'll know
How to get to people right away, and let's do that." And he just said, "No." and then he
went -- he said, "This is the machine. We have to take care of the machine." and I think
what he meant by that was, his brain could create the show, but his body had to deliver it
every night. He said, "This is the machine. We have to take care of the machine. I want
Conrad." And that was the end of the discussion.
Q. Now, did he explain to you who Dr. Conrad Murray was?
A. I understood it was his doctor.
Q. Had you ever heard this man's name before?
A. No.
Q. Had Mr. Jackson, prior to that point, ever said to you that he wanted to bring his
doctor on tour?

A. No. That was the first time.

Q. Had anyone ever said to you before that moment that Mr. Jackson wanted to take his
doctor on tour?
A. I don't think so.
Q. So as you sit here today, is this the first time you had heard the name Dr. Conrad
Murray and that Mr. Jackson wanted to bring him on tour?
A. Yes.
Q. Were you surprised?
A. No.
Q. Why not?
A. He'd had doctors before.
Q. Did that concern you; that he had had doctors before?
A. No.
Q. Why not?
A. Other artists do this as well. He's not the only one. So it wasn't particularly surprising.
Q. In fact, Mr. Trell, when he testified, testified to several artists who have doctors on
tour. Are you aware of artists who take doctors on tour?
A. Some.
Q. Prior to this time, 2009, had you ever been on a Tour other than with Mr. Jackson
where there was a doctor on tour?
A. Chiropractors. You know, with chiropractors and that kind of stuff. I can't remember
specifically a doctor.
Q. Okay. And when you said that you weren't surprised, did you have any worries when
you heard Mr. Jackson say, "hey, I want to take my personal physician with me on tour"?
A. No.
Q. Did you worry that Mr. Jackson might have a health issue?
A. No.

Q. Why not?
A. He seemed fine to me. He'd had a physical, recent physical, and he passed it. I just had
no reason to believe there was a problem.
Q. And it didn't strike you as odd at all that suddenly he said to you, "I want to take my
doctor on tour"?
A. No.
Q. Now, you said that your response was, you didn't think that it was necessary to bring a
doctor. Why did you feel that?
A. It wasn't a question of a doctor, it was just a question of cost to me. I mean, it would
be really expensive to take a doctor over to pay him full time and travel and
transportation, housing. All those
Incidental costs. If someone is living there, if it's a doctor
That's there, it's just going to be a lot less expensive.
Q. And is that what you proposed?
A. Yeah. I said, "let's get one over there."
Q. And did Mr. Jackson seem to consider that idea?
A. No. He wanted Conrad.
Q. And this idea of Mr. Jackson's response, saying, "This is the machine," what did you
understand he was referring to when he said, "This is the machine"?
A. His body.
Q. His body. Did that response surprise you at all?
A. No.
Q. Why "no"?
A. I understood like he did. Every night he was going to have to go out and do the show.
It's not like on Broadway, if somebody is sick, you can put on a stand-in and go on. If he
couldn't do the show, we'd Have to cancel it.
Q. Now, at this time, did you have any understanding as to what type of doctor Dr.
Conrad Murray was?
A. No.
Q. Did you ask Mr. Jackson this?

A. No.
Q. Why not?
A. It was his doctor. It was up to him.
Q. Did Mr. Jackson explain to you at that time how long Dr. Conrad Murray had been
treating him?
A. No.
Q. Did you come to learn how long Dr. Conrad Murray had been treating him?
A. It had been about three years.
Q. And the -- did you have an understanding at that point in time, late April 2009, did you
have an understanding as to whether -- where Dr. Conrad Murray was living at the time?
A. At -- at this time?
Q. Uh-huh.
A. I knew he was from Vegas previously, but he was in Los Angeles.
Q. And how did you know that?
A. I don't know.
Q. You don't remember?
A. No.
Q. Now, did you end up -- what did you do as a result of Mr. Jackson saying he wanted to
bring his personal physician on tour with him? What did you do next?
A. I called Dr. Murray.
Q. Now, why did you call Dr. Murray?
A. Well, Michael wanted him as his doctor, so I needed to make a deal with him. Try to.
Q. And did you end up calling Dr. Conrad Murray?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. And how soon after your conversation with Mr. Jackson did you call Dr. Conrad
Murray?
A. I don't know. Same day, next day.
Q. How did you get the number?

A. I think I got it from Michael Amir Williams, but I'm not sure.
Q. And, again, who is Michael Amir Williams?
A. Michael's assistant.
Q. Remind me of something. Michael Amir Williams, if you wanted to talk to Mr.
Jackson in this time period, how would you reach Mr. Jackson?
A. If he was at rehearsals, I'd just talk to him. I'd just go see him. But if I needed to get
him on the phone, I would go through Michael Amir Williams.
Q. Why wouldn't you call Mr. Jackson directly yourself?
A. I didn't have his number.
Q. Uhm, the -- was there any other person you'd go through to get to Mr. Jackson other
than Mr. Williams?
A. Dr. Tohme or Frank Dileo.
Q. And those were his managers?
A. Yes.
Q. So you ended up calling Dr. Conrad Murray. You believe that was either the same day
or soon thereafter; correct?
A. Yes.
Q. And tell me what you can recall about this conversation.
A. Well, I just said, "Calling on behalf of Michael Jackson. He wants to take you to
London," you know. "We need to" -- you know, "what do you want to do, then,
basically?" wanted to find out what he wanted.
Q. And when you say you wanted to find out what he wanted, what do you mean?
A. What he wanted to be paid.
Q. Did you have any other reason to call Dr. Conrad Murray, other than finding out what
he wanted to be paid?
A. No.
Q. The -- so you called. Did you have any impression when you spoke to Dr. Conrad
Murray whether he was expecting your call?

A. Yeah. He didn't ask me any questions about it, so he -- I'm sure he knew.
Q. Did he say to you, "What tour are you talking about?"
A. No.
Q. Did he say to you, "I don't know what you're talking about. What do you mean, Mr.
Jackson wants to take me on tour?"
A. No. None of that.
Q. Did he ask you any preliminary questions as to what you were talking about?
A. No.
Q. Did you immediately start talking about how much it would cost if he went on tour?
A. Yeah. Pretty much.
Q. There was no preliminary conversation like I can't think of what he might say. Like
"How long is this going to last?"
A. No.
Q. Was there any conversation about when is this going to start?
A. No.
Q. Was there any conversation at all other than starting, talking about the price terms?
A. That's what we talked about.
Q. And go through it with you, what was said in this conversation?
A. Well, I asked him what he wanted. He said that he would need $5 million. He said he
had four clinics that he had to close: he had one in Houston, one in Las Vegas, I think he
said San Diego and Hawaii. And he was going to have to lay people off, and so he needed
$5 million.
Q. Did it seem reasonable to you?
A. No.
Q. Why not?
A. It was ridiculous.
Q. Why do you say that?
A. It was just a lot of money for something like that, and Michael couldn't afford it. So I
just had to tell him, "No, that wasn't going to work."

Q. How did he respond?

A. I think that's kind of how we ended the conversation. I just said, "This isn't going to
work."
Q. Now, you'd indicated that previously you hadn't been involved with the doctor going
on tour. How did you know 5 million was too much?
A. Well, I knew Michael couldn't afford that.
Q. Did you discuss anything else on this call?
A. Not on that call, no.
Q. Okay. And, again, I just want to get it in time. So it's late April 2009, and you're
talking to Dr. Conrad Murray. You called him; correct?
A. Yes.
Q. Do you recall ever having any prior conversation with him?
Mr. Panish: Excuse me, your honor. I'm going to object on the foundation as to the
time of the call. Misstating what the witness said, and no foundation for that as to
when it occurred.
Mr. Putnam: The first question I asked him is, "are we in the same time period?"
and he said, "yes."
Mr. Panish: No.
Judge: Okay. Well, lay some foundation. "the same time period," what that means.
Q. What time period are we talking about, sir?
A. Right around when that email was.
Q. And what email was that, sir?
A. This one (showing document), the Kenny/Travis one. It was all somewhere around
there.
Q. And what date is on there, sir?
A. That one is April 27th.
Mr. Putnam: And that was the question I opened with, your honor.

Judge: Okay.
Mr. Panish: Well, still object. Contrary to his prior testimony. Misstates what he
already testified to.
Judge: Overruled.
Q. Okay. So other than this price at $5 million, and the idea that he said he was going to
have to close various of his places -- clinics, I guess it is -- do you recall talking about
anything else in that conversation?
A. No.
Q. So, again, putting it in time, late April, you called him, and this was the first time you
had ever heard of him, and first time you had ever spoken to him?
A. Well, I heard about him from Michael. But, yes, the first time I spoke to him.
Q. Okay.
A. I'm not really certain about the time period. Somewhere in there, but I don't know --
Mr. Panish: Exactly.
Gongaware: -- exactly when.
Q. By Mr. Putnam: Okay.
Judge: Was there an objection? Did I miss something?
Mr. Putnam: No.
Mr. Panish: Yeah. Objection. Move to strike. As he just said, there's no foundation
for when the call happened after the lawyer kept leading him on the date. He knows
that he doesn't know when it was.
Mr. Putnam: And, your honor, I didn't lead on the date. I opened with --
Judge: Yes. Overruled on leading.
Mr. Putnam: Thank you, your honor.
Mr. Panish: He just said he didn't know.
Q. Now, after this conversation, how soon thereafter -- what did you do next?
A. I told a couple people about the what Dr. Murray was asking.

Q. Who did you tell?

A. I believe I told Michael amir. I think I told Randy Phillips.
Q. Anybody else?
A. I think I told Frank as well.
Q. Frank Dileo?
A. Yes.
Q. The first one you said you told was Michael Amir Williams. Do you have an
understanding as to why you told Michael Amir Williams?
A. Reporting back to Michael on the conversation.
Q. Why were you reporting back to Michael?
A. Because he asked me to do this.
Q. Would you have been doing this had Mr. Jackson not asked you?
A. No.
Q. Had you ever contemplated before Mr. Jackson approached you about bringing his
doctor? Had you ever contemplated bringing a doctor on the tour?
A. No.
Q. Had there ever been a discussion about bringing a doctor on the tour? Prior to Mr.
Jackson saying he was going to bring his doctor on tour, had you ever contemplated
bringing a doctor on tour?
A. No.
Q. Had you heard any discussion from anyone about the idea of bringing a doctor on the
tour?
A. No. I didn't think we needed one. We didn't have one on History. We didn't have one
on History and it was fine.
Q. So the first time you ever contemplated this was when Mr. Jackson said he was going
to bring his doctor?
A. Yes.
Q. And so -- and would you have called Dr. Conrad Murray and asked how much he
wanted to charge to go on tour if Mr. Jackson hadn't directed you to do so?

A. No. I didn't know who he was.

Q. And after that, then you reported back to Michael Amir Williams.
Do you remember what he said?
A. No.
Q. Do you remember what you said to him?
A. I just told him what the conversation was, and what the doctor was asking.
Q. And then you said you also told Mr. Phillips.
A. Yes.
Q. At that point, did Mr. Phillips have an understanding that Mr. Jackson had asked to
bring his doctor on tour?
A. I think I was the one who told him.
Q. And was -- and why did you report back to Mr. Phillips at this point about the $5
million response?
A. Well, because we weren't going to be able to pay it, and Michael wanted the doctor.
Q. Okay. And you said you also might have talked to Mr. Dileo. Do you remember
talking to Mr. Dileo about Dr. Conrad Murray and Mr. Jackson's request?
A. Yeah. I do remember, I just don't remember the timing.
Q. So irrespective of the timing, what do you remember about that conversation?
A. Just told Frank what the doctor was asking, and we couldn't afford it.
Q. Did he express any anger over that?
A. No. He wasn't angry, but I think he was going to deal with it.
Q. What makes you think that?
A. I don't remember specifically, but that was -- Frank would deal with things, you know.
Q. When you say, "Frank would deal with things," what do you mean?
A. Well, when there was a problem, he would you know, he wouldn't just forget it. He
would find a Way to deal with it.
Q. And, again, he was Mr. Jackson's manager at the time?
A. Yes.

Q. Now, when Dr. Conrad Murray said to you that he wanted $5 million to go to London
on the tour, did you think that made him a bad doctor?
A. No. Everybody comes after whatever they can get out of -- not everybody. A. lot of
people want to get paid huge sums to work for Michael Jackson. They just think he has
all the money in the world, and he can pay it.
Q. So you weren't surprised when he asked for $5 million?
A. Well, it was a bit surprising, yeah.
Q. But you didn't think that made him a bad doctor. Did you think it made him unethical?
A. No.
Q. Did it make you question what he was doing for treatment of Mr. Jackson?
A. No.
Q. Did it make you worry that maybe he's somebody that Mr. Jackson shouldn't take with
him?
A. No.
Q. Why is that?
A. It was Michael's doctor. Michael wanted him. I mean, that was it.
Q. Now, at this point in time when Mr. Jackson indicated that he wanted to take his
personal physician on the tour, did you think to yourself, we should do a background
check on this guy?
A. No.
Q. Why not?
A. He was Michael's doctor.
Q. Didn't you think it might be prudent to do a background check on Mr. Jackson's
doctor?
A. No.
Q. Why not?
A. Well, he was Michael's doctor, and I just -- he -- he'd been his doctor, so it's, like, I'm
not going to tell Michael Jackson who his doctor should be. I mean, no.
Q. So it never crossed your mind at all to do a background check?
A. No.

Q. Weren't you worried that maybe his finances were such that he might be compromised
in some way in his treatment of Mr. Jackson?
A. No. I don't think one has to do with the other.
Q. Did you ever contemplate that at all?
A. No.
Q. Did you say to Mr. Jackson, "have you done a background check on your doctor?"
A. No.
Q. Did Mr. Jackson say to you, "I've done a background check on my doctor"?
A. No.
Q. When you spoke to Michael Amir Williams, did you say to him, "Hey, did you guys
do a background check on Dr. Conrad Murray?"
A. No.
Q. Why not?
A. It's his doctor. He was already his doctor.
Q. What about when you spoke to Frank Dileo? Did you ask Mr. Dileo if he had done a
proper background check to make sure there was nothing wrong financially with Dr.
Conrad Murray?
A. No.
Q. Was that something that you ever contemplated doing at any point?
A. No.
Q. At this point did you talk to any of Mr. Jackson's lawyers, accountants, managers,
we've gone through them, did you contact any of them and ask them if they had done a
background check on him?
A. No.
Q. And why is that?
A. Never crossed my mind.
Q. Never crossed your mind at all?
A. No.
Q. Well, let me ask you about that. Had you done a background check on Kenny Ortega?
A. No.

Q. Why not?
A. I didn't see the need for it.
Q. All right. What about on Travis Payne? Did you do a background check on Travis
Payne?
A. No.
Q. Karen Faye?
A. No.
Q. Did you do a background check on Karen Faye?
A. No.
Q. Did you ever contemplate doing a background check on Karen Faye?
A. No.
Q. Well, what if somebody came up to you and said, "Ms. Faye has declared
bankruptcy"? Did that make you think maybe you shouldn't hire ms. Faye?
A. No. It doesn't have to do with her skill.
Q. And what if somebody came to you and said, "Look, there's all these liens filed against
Ms. Faye"? Would that make you think of anything to do with hiring her?
A. No.
Q. Would you have bothered Mr. Jackson and said, "You really shouldn't bring her on
board because she has some financial problems"?
A. No.
Q. If you had learned at any point in this time period that Dr. Conrad Murray had
declared bankruptcy at any point, would that have made you -- would you have gone to
Mr. Jackson and said, "You really shouldn't bring your doctor with you"?
A. No.
Q. Would you have contemplated at that point that maybe there was a problem ethically
with the doctor?
A. No. I don't think one has to do with the other.
Q. You keep saying that, and I want to understand what that means. When you say, "one
doesn't have to do with the other," what do you mean by that?

A. Well, I mean, students come out of medical school with massive amounts of debt. It
doesn't mean they're not going to be ethical. I just expect doctors to be ethical. And their
financial side of their life shouldn't affect their medical judgment.
Q. Have you ever done a background check on any of your doctors?
A. Never.
Q. Have you ever done a background check on any artists you've ever hired?
A. No.
Q. Did you guys do a background check on Mr. Jackson?
A. No.
Q. You say that so emphatically. Why?
A. Why would we?
BREAK
Q. So, Mr. Gongaware, we were talking about this first phone call you had with Dr.
Conrad Murray, and I was asking you whether it had ever crossed your mind at that point
that maybe you
Should do a background check. Have you ever had somebody do a background check for
anybody you've hired for a tour?
A. No.
Q. If you had done it in this instance, would it have been something completely different
than anything you had done before?
A. Yes.
Q. Was there anything that made you believe at that point that it was warranted to do such
a background check; that you should do one?
A. No. There was nothing.
Q. At this point in time, how was Mr. Jackson doing in terms of his engagement with
rehearsals?
A. Yeah. I believe he was really engaged in the whole process.
Q. And when you saw him, how did he seem physically?
A. He was great.

Q. Did you have any concern at this point that he may have lapsed and gone back to
using painkillers?
A. No, no. None at all.
Q. Did you have any concern at this point that Mr. Jackson was too thin?
A. No. He was always thin.
Q. Did you have any concerns at this point in time about Mr. Jackson's health at all?
A. No. None.
Q. And what about the fact that Mr. Jackson wanted to take his personal physician? Didn't
that make you concerned that maybe he had some health issues?
A. No.
Q. Why not?
A. I don't know. Just wasn't surprising he wanted a doctor. He had had one out there
before in a foreign country. Yeah, not a surprise.
Q. Now, after this call, you indicated you talked to some people. And, also, on your prior
testimony, you had indicated that you also talked to a Dr. Stuart Finkelstein after that call.
Do you recall that?
A. Yes.
Q. Remind us of who that is, Dr. Finkelstein.
A. He's a Friend of mine, doctor.
Q. And why did you call Dr. Finkelstein after you spoke to Dr. Conrad Murray?
A. Just kind of wanted to get another opinion on what someone else would do that same
work for.
Q. And by "that same work," what do you mean?
A. Be Michael's personal physician.
Q. And did you get a Sense from Dr. Finkelstein what he would charge?
A. Yeah. He told me what he would charge.
Q. What did he tell you?
A. 10 grand a week.
Q. And did that seem like a high or a low figure to you?
A. For Stewie, it would have been a low figure.

Q. Why do you say that?

A. He would have done it for nothing.
Q. Why do you say that?
A. Well, he did it on -- he was on the "dangerous" tour, and he just had so much fun, he
loved it.
Q. Well, then, if he would have done it for so much less, did you contemplate going to
Michael Amir Williams or Mr. Jackson, saying, "I have another doctor you should bring
instead"?
A. No. It wasn't for me to tell him who the doctor would be.
Q. But it would have been so much cheaper for him, wouldn't it have been good to say, "I
know this is your long-time doctor, but I have somebody else who could go"?
A. It would have been great, but it was just no way it would work.
Q. Did you ever contemplate doing that?
A. No.
Q. Did you ever discuss with him the idea, "I know you want to bring a doctor, but let's
bring somebody else"?
A. No. That wasn't my place to say who his doctor was going to be. That was his
decision.
Q. Okay. After this phone conversation with Mr. Finkelstein, did a time come where you
had a follow-up conversation with Dr. Conrad Murray?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, on I think it was Friday, I talked about that first call as the $5 million call. Let's
talk about this call. How did this call come about?
A. I was at Center Staging. Got a call from Michael Amir Williams. He and Michael
Jackson were on their way over to rehearsals. I think Frank was even with them. But they
were in the car riding over, and he said, "You're going" -- you know -- "We're going to
need to get a deal done with Dr. Murray."
Q. And who said this to you?
A. Michael Amir Williams.
Q. And were you surprised to get that call from Michael Amir Williams?

A. No. I figured it was coming.

Q. And why did you think it was coming?
A. Because Michael wanted him as his doctor.
Q. And do you have any idea how long after this first call that second call took place?
A. Just a couple of weeks.
Q. The -- so you had this -- tell me more about this call. So you hear that from Michael
Amir Williams. What exactly did he say to you? Michael Amir Williams, that is.
A. I don't know exactly, but he said, "We're going to need to hire Dr. Murray."
Q. And do you remember saying anything in response?
A. No, because right after that, I heard Michael, who was in the car, saying, "offer him
150. Offer him 150." and I knew what that meant: offer him 150,000 a month.
Q. How do you know it was Mr. Jackson who was saying it?
A. It was him.
Q. You sure of that?
A. Yes.
Q. He said, "offer him 150. Offer him 150." and you understood that to be 150,000 a
month. Was there any more about that conversation that you recall?
A. No.
Q. And just, again, I want to try to understand the timing. You're at Center Staging;
Michael Amir Williams and Michael Jackson are on their way to Center Staging; Frank
Dileo might have been with them.
A. Right.
Q. Did you understand they were in a car at the time?
A. Yes.
Q. Were they on speakerphone?
A. I don't know on their end, what they were.
Q. How is it you could hear Mr. Jackson?
A. He was -- I could hear him.
Q. Okay. So do you remember anything else being discussed in that telephone
conversation?

A. No. That was it.

Q. And what happened after that?
A. I called Dr. Murray.
Q. And tell me what you can recall of that conversation.
A. Well, I called him and said, "Dr. Murray, I'm authorized to offer you $150,000 a
Month." and he said, "No. I don't think I could do it for that." And I kind of cut him off at
that point, and I said, "That offer comes directly from the artist." And right away, he said,
"I'll take it."
Q. Again, in this conversation, did you discuss what the dates of the tour would be?
A. No.
Q. Did you discuss what his treatment of Michael Jackson would be?
A. No.
Q. Did you discuss what his obligations would be?
A. No.
Q. Did you indicate in any measure when you'd be leaving for this tour?
A. No. I don't think we talked about the dates.
Q. Just now when you were describing it, you said that you were authorized to offer him
150,000. What do you mean by "authorized"?
A. Michael told me to offer him 150.
Q. So who had provided you with that authorization?
A. Michael.
Q. Did anybody else authorize you to do that?
A. No.
Q. Did you feel at any point that you were -- strike that. On whose behalf did you
understand you were making this offer?
A. Michael Jackson.
Q. Did it ever -- did you ever contemplate that you were making it on behalf of anyone
else?
A. No, huh-uh.

Q. Why is that?
A. It was his personal physician. It was up to him.
Q. And you said, "directly from the artist." why did you say, "directly from the artist"?
A. Because it was directly from the artist.
Q. And just -- I know I'm asking the obvious, but when you say, "directly from the artist,"
what are you referring to?
A. Michael told me, "offer him 150," so that's what I did. And I told Dr. Murray it was
coming directly from the artist.
Q. Now -- and did he stop to contemplate that for any period of time?
A. No. He started in, saying, you know, he couldn't really do it for that, and then I just --
at that point I just really didn't want to hear it, and so I told him, "the offer comes directly
from the artist."
Q. And so did he accept it right away?
A. Yes. Right away.
Q. Did you discuss anything else in that phone conversation?
A. Well, I asked him, "How are you going to get licensed over there to do this?" and he
said, "Leave that to me. Don't worry." And then I asked him about his housing, what kind
of housing he was going to need. He said he was going to need three bedrooms with
someplace that was fairly close to Michael. And I asked him if he was going to need
anything over there. And he said he was probably going to need an assistant, and he was
going to need some equipment, but he didn't specify what it was.
Q. Did he tell you in any way what kind of equipment he would need?
A. No.
Q. Did he indicate in any way why he would need equipment?
A. No.
Q. Did he say why he would need an assistant?
A. No.
Q. Did you have an understanding as to what he meant by "assistant"?
A. No.
Q. You said that he would need a House with at least three bedrooms. Did he indicate
why?
A. I think he was going to bring his family with him.

Q. And then you say that you had asked him about licensing.
Why did you ask about licensing?
A. Because American doctors just can't go over to the UK and practice medicine. There's
a Licensing board over there as well that has to, I guess, agree to that.
Q. Well, did you have an understanding as to whether Dr. Conrad Murray was licensed
already to practice in the UK?
A. I didn't think he was.
Q. And when he said to you that he would take care of it, did he tell you how he was
going to take care of it?
A. No.
Q. Did you have any further discussion with him in that conversation about how he was
going to take care of it?
A. No.
Q. Did you ever discuss with him further how he was going to take care of his licensing
in the UK?
A. No.
Q. Do you remember talking about anything else during that call?
A. That was about it. Oh, I think he told me that -- he told me it
Was going to take him, like, 10 days or so to shut down his practices.
Q. All right. And what happened after the call?
A. After the call, I let Michael Amir Williams know what the result of it was.
Q. And in fact, I'm going to show you what -- you've already been asked questions about
it. It's already been entered as an exhibit. Exhibit 175.
Q. Give you a second to look at that. (showing document)
Do you remember being asked about this email by Mr. Panish last week?
A. Yes.
Q. You said a Moment ago that you communicated this to Michael Amir Williams. Is this
that communication?

A. Right. Yes.
Q. Now, you weren't asked about all of this very short email, so I'm going to ask you
about a little bit of it. Could you read the first sentence?
A. "Done at 150k per month, per MJ."
Q. And you weren't previously asked about the "per MJ" portion of this. What does "per
MJ" mean?
A. Michael had instructed me to do this.
Q. And you then went on to talk about the shutdown within 10 days, but prior to that is
the 150. Why were you sending this to Michael Amir Williams?
A. It was a Message to Michael Jackson.
Q. And what was that message?
A. That I had done what he asked.
Q. And did you hear anything back from Michael Amir Williams?
A. Not that I recall.
Q. Did they indicate to you, "hey, that's great. Let's do a background check"?
A. No.
Q. Was there any follow-up at all in doing anything additional with this communication
with Dr. Conrad Murray?
A. No.
Q. The -- after you sent this to Michael Amir Williams, what did you next do in terms of
the taking of Dr. Conrad Murray to London with Mr. Jackson? What happened next?
A. Not sure I understand.
Q. Well, was there any follow-up to this? For example, did you tell someone to follow up
with him? Did you go out and have additional meetings with him? What happened next?
A. I passed it on to Timm Woolley.
Q. Now, when you say you "passed it on to Timm Woolley," what does that mean?
A. Timm was at the time responsible for doing the contracts and getting the deals
finalized and done.

Q. And did you have any further communications with Dr. Conrad Murray about his
possibly going to London with Mr. Jackson?
A. No.
Q. So the two conversations that we've talked about, the $5 million call, and the 150,000
call, are those the only two conversations you had with Dr. Conrad Murray about him
possibly going to London with Mr. Jackson?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you ever come to understand that AEG Live had hired Dr. Murray?
Mr. Panish: Objection, your honor. It's violating your motion in limine, which
addresses that exact issue.
Judge: Sustained.
Q. Did you ever come to understand that a Deal was concluded with Dr. Conrad Murray?
A. One never was.
Q. Did you ever think differently than that?
A. No.
Q. Did you ever pay -- strike that. Did AEG Live ever pay Dr. Conrad Murray any
amount of money?
A. No.
Q. Did you ever believe that AEG Live ever paid Dr. Conrad Murray any money at all?
A. No.
Q. Did you personally ever provide Dr. Conrad Murray with any money at all?
A. No.
Q. Did you have an understanding that anybody at AEG Live had ever paid Dr. Conrad
Murray any money?
A. I don't believe anyone did.
Q. During this period of time, sir, did you have an understanding as to who was
ultimately responsible for Mr. Jackson's health and well-being?

A. Yes.
Q. Who is that?
A. Michael Jackson.
Q. Why do you say that?
A. I think everyone is responsible for their own health and well-being.
Q. Well, how old was Mr. Jackson at this time?
A. Fifty.
Q. Did you consider him a Grown man?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you consider Mr. Jackson capable of making his own decisions?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you ever in this time period believe for any reason that Mr. Jackson wasn't
capable of making his own decisions?
A. No.
Q. Did you have anyone indicate to you at any point that Mr. Jackson was incapable of
making his own decisions?
A. No.
Q. Did you believe that Mr. Jackson was capable of hiring his own doctor?
A. Yes, certainly.
Q. And did you have any belief that he was incapable in some way of determining who
his doctor would be?
A. No. Not at all.
Q. Did you ever contemplate telling Mr. Jackson he couldn't bring his long-time doctor,
but instead you would choose his doctor for him?
A. No, no. That never happened.
Q. And why was AEG Live -- strike that. Why were you dealing with Dr. Conrad Murray
at all?
A. I was instructed to by Michael Jackson.

Q. Was there any other reason for you to deal with Dr. Conrad Murray?
A. No.
Q. And why didn't you tell Mr. Jackson that he couldn't take his own doctor with him on
tour?
A. Because he could if he wanted to.
Q. All right. Moving on from there, what is the date of that email?
A. May 6th.
Q. So your second conversation with Dr. Conrad Murray happened on May 6th?
A. Yes.
Q. Okay. And you provided some prior testimony as to how long there was between the
two calls. Do you remember how long it was between these two calls?
A. It was a couple weeks.
Q. If I -- let's go into -- rehearsals were about to happen. Do you remember where you
were rehearsing in this time period?
A. Yes.
Q. Where was that?
A. Center Staging.
Q. So these conversations happened at the time you were at Center Staging; correct?
A. Yes.
Q. Let's continue with rehearsals. Center Staging was the place rehearsals were taking
place here in Burbank. At Center Staging, were you at rehearsals every day?
A. Yes.
Q. And typically, how many hours were you spending at rehearsals during this time
period?
A. Uhm, I was there, I don't know, 10, 12 hours a Day, on average.
Q. And if I recall correctly, this was the one place where you had a Separate room? I
think you called it a production office?
A. Yeah.

Q. And did you spend most of your time in that production office?
A. A. lot of it.
Q. Where else did you spend time?
A. In all the studios and rehearsal halls, and that kind of thing.
Q. And there was some prior testimony by -- do you know who Stacy Walker is?
A. Yeah.
Q. And who is she?
A. She was an assistant choreographer.
Q. And do you remember there being auditions for dancers?
A. Oh, yeah.
Q. Were you involved in any way in these auditions for dancers?
A. Yes.
Q. And where were those auditions held?
A. They were at the Nokia Theater in downtown LA at LA Live.
Q. Do you remember when those rehearsals took place?
A. Middle of April.
Q. Do you remember the specific date?
A. No. It was over a 3-day period, I believe.
Mr. Putnam: Could I please see exhibit 4644? Any objection?
Mr. Panish: No. Go ahead.
Q. We see here that there's an email from you to a Susan Rosenbluth. Is that how you say
it?
A. Yes.
Q. And who is she?
A. She works at AEG Live and coordinates the schedules between AEG Live and the
Nokia Theater.
Q. All right. And what is the Nokia Theater?
A. It's an about 6,000-seat theater right across the street from Staples Center at LA Live.

Q. And you testified that that's where the dance rehearsals took place -- I'm sorry. The
dance auditions?
A. Auditions. Yes.
Q. You see here where it says, "Subject: Nokia Theater for MJ dance auditions." goes on
to say: "do I have the joint for free for our dance auditions during the day, April 13th,
14th, 15th? Paul G." Do you see that?
A. Yes.
Q. Does that refresh your recollection as to when these auditions actually took place?
A. Yes.
Q. You said mid April. Was it the 13th, 14th and 15th?
A. Yes.
Q. And your understanding as to -- why was it over three days?
A. It was a process of figuring out who they wanted. So it was a day, I think, primarily
with guys; a day primarily with females; and then a third day, they cut it down to a Much
smaller group, and that's when Michael came in, and they decided who they were going
to pick as their dancers.
Q. Now, a Moment ago we were asking about when the first conversation took place with
Dr. Conrad Murray. Do you recall whether that conversation took place before or after the
Nokia auditions?
A. It would have been after.
Q .So while you're not sure of the period of time between them, are you sure that the first
one took place afterwards?
A. Yeah.
Q. Why?
A. Pretty sure. The rehearsals really started things going. That's when things really started
to go.
Q. When you say rehearsals --
A. Auditions. Excuse me.
Q. So this was kind of the beginning of the process?

A. Yes.
Q. All right. So let's go back and talk about those auditions. You said that you were there.
Why were you there?
A. I set them up, and I had to be there.
Q. Were you there all three days?
A. Yes.
Q. And did Mr. Jackson attend those rehearsals as well?
A. Auditions? He was there the final day.
Q. So that would be the 15th?
A. Yes.
Q. And did Mr. Jackson have any role in selecting the dancers?
A. Yeah. He made the final decision with Kenny.
Q. I'm going to show you another clip from the movie. The trial exhibit is 12,927. This
clip is called "Nokia auditions." Mr. Gongaware, does that clip accurately depict the
dancer audition process?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, there were several times it cut to seeing Mr. Jackson next to Mr. Ortega. Did you
see that?
A. Yes.
Q. How involved was Mr. Jackson in the selection of the dancers, to your knowledge?
A. I think he was very involved.
Q. Why is that?
A. He was working with Kenny, and he chose them himself.
Q. And I saw a bunch of people sitting at that table. Where was that table?
A. It was in the seats.
Q. And then the stage, all the dancers were up on the stage?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, this is an audition, not a rehearsal. Why was it filmed?
A. Kenny wanted to shoot it.

Q. Do you have an understanding as to why?

A. I'm not sure why he did, but I figured we could use it to constantly refresh our internet,
what was up on the internet, as we moved towards the shows to build anticipation for the
shows.
Q. Okay. Explain that to me. Let's start at the beginning. You said so you could refresh
your internet. What was your internet?
A. We were using michaeljacksonlive.com at the time.
Q. What were you using it for?
A. Just as a web site about the shows.
Q. And you said that you thought you might be able to refresh it and use the auditions.
What do you mean by that?
A. Well, ideally, I wanted to have material on a regular basis, new stuff for people to go
and look at, as we moved towards the shows.
Q. Now, we see that there were filmed auditions here. Did -- was any part of the
rehearsals filmed, to your knowledge, prior to the filming of the auditions?
A. I don't think so.
Q. And we've seen, obviously, the documentary is based on a bunch of footage. Why was
that footage made?
A. Why was it shot?
Q. Yeah.
A. The dance stuff?
Q. Not just the dance stuff, all of it. Why did you have somebody there at rehearsals and
whatnot that were shooting footage? Why did you do that?
A. I mean, I wasn't sure what it would end up being, but I knew that at least on the
internet we could use that content.
Q. And do you have an understanding as to who made the decision to actually bring in
cameras and shoot the rehearsals and whatnot?
A. Yeah. I did.
Q. And why -- so you did. And did you have a purpose at the time?
A. Not really. It was just -- we used the production company to film the dance auditions,
and it was really expensive, and I just didn't want to keep paying that. So I just bought a
couple of cameras and
hired a couple of cameramen.

Q. So this was a Decision you made after the auditions took place for the dancers?
A. Yeah. After I realized what it was costing, yeah.
Q. And did you end up using any of that footage after the auditions on the, what you
called the MJLive.com web site?
A. Yeah. I think a lot of that did get posted.
Q. Now, did you -- during this period of time -- now, again, we are out at Center Staging.
During this period of time, did you talk to Mr. Jackson very often?
A. At Center Staging?
Q. Uh-huh.
A. Yeah. Whenever I needed to talk to him.
Q. And when you say whenever you needed to talk to him, what does that mean?
A. If I had something to discuss with him, I'd go talk to him.
Q. What type of thing would be a Topic that you would find you needed to discuss with
Mr. Jackson?
A. Well, he was -- we were talking about the tickets, the actual physical tickets that we
would send out for the shows. They were going to be like this lenticular thing where you
would move them, and they would move. We had to go through several iterations to get it
to where he wanted it.
Q. So Mr. Jackson was actively involved even in how the ticket looked?
A. Oh, yeah.
Q. Was that typical for an artist?
A. Yeah.
Q. And if you were to guess how often in a week you spoke to Mr. Jackson -- don't guess.
If you were to tell me from your memory how
Often you spoke to Mr. Jackson at Center Staging in a Given week, would you be able to
tell me?
A. couple times a week.
Q. And during this time at Center Staging, did you ever watch the dancers rehearse?
A. Sure.
Q. During your time at Center Staging, did you ever watch the musicians rehearse?
A. Yes.
Q. During your time at Center Staging, did you ever watch Mr. Jackson rehearse?
A. Sure.

Q. In this time period, were you at all concerned about Mr. Jackson's health?
A. No.
Q. During this time period, did you have any personal concerns that Mr. Jackson might
again be using drugs?
A. No. Not at all.
Q. And during this time period, were you personally concerned in any way about Mr.
Jackson's attendance at rehearsals?
A. No. It was up to him when he rehearsed.
Q. And do you have any idea, as you sit here today, how many rehearsals Mr. Jackson
missed at Center Staging?
A. No.
Q. Okay. When you saw him rehearse -- and by "him," I mean Mr. Jackson -- how did he
seem to you?
A. He was good. He was engaged.
Q. Now, we've seen -- there's been prior testimony, discussions, about media speculation
about Mr. Jackson's health. Do you remember there being media speculation about Mr.
Jackson's health during this time period?
A. Oh, yeah. Especially in the UK, the tabloids were just running wild.
Q. And when you say they were "running wild," what do you mean?
A. Oh, just running all sorts of stories about Michael Jackson, and just -- they just make
stuff up.
Q. And did you -- how did you respond to these various media reports about Mr. Jackson?
A. I was amused by them. I didn't -- our press agent kept wanting to answer. Every time
one came out, he kept wanting to answer it, and I -- I just really didn't agree with that
philosophy. They do that over
There, but I just thought -- I loved the controversy. Let it build. Because our answer was
going to be, when Michael Jackson stepped on the stage and did the show he was going
to do, all that was going away.
Q. So what we have here is a 2 -- two pages. It's an email from Alan Edwards, and then
there's a response from Paul Gongaware to Alan Edwards, and there's a CC to Randy
Phillips, Rob Hallett and Celine Aponte. Do you see that?
A. Yes.

Q. Before we go into that, let me ask a couple questions. Who is Alan Edwards?
A. He was our PR press agent.
Q. And where was he based?
A. London.
Q. Why did you have a PR press agent?
A. Uhm, if you can get publicity and press, it's much less expensive than buying
advertising, which you're trying to sell tickets.
Q. And had you ever worked with Mr. Edwards before?
A. I hadn't, no.
Q. And then we know who Randy Phillips is. Who is Rob Hallett?
A. He's from our UK office, London office.
Q. Who is Celine Aponte?
A. She worked for Alan.
Q. Excuse me?
A. She worked for Alan.
Q. All right. Now, you'll see the date of this is May 27th, 2009?
A. Yes.
Q. His email to you is on May 27th, 2009, as well. You see that?
A. Yes.
Q. And we'll go through this a little bit, if I may. It says: "Good evening, gentlemen.
Seems like the Sun have a well-placed leak, or at least they certainly think they do.
Basically, they've got a lot of medical details about Michael supposedly getting his results
from the alleged cancer tests."
Now, I'll first ask you, are you aware of Mr. Jackson having any cancer tests?
A. No.
Q. Did anyone ever tell you that Mr. Jackson was having cancer tests?
A. No.
Q. As you sit here today, do you have a Belief that Mr. Jackson was having cancer tests in
May of 2009?
A. No.

Q. Goes on to say: "Apparently Michael's nose is fine, but he needs to have some work
done (removing cancerous skin on his chest)."
Did you have an understanding that Mr. Jackson needed to have cancer removed from his
chest?
A. No.
Q. Goes on to say: "According to their source, treatment time (skin shaving, etc.), is six
weeks plus some recuperation time. You can see where this is all heading, e.g., he may
have to put some of the tour back further. Also they have picked up a remark reportedly
made by one of Michael's managers who is supposed to be in London talking about the
shows going back to September."
Now, first of all, do you have an understanding as to whether Mr. Jackson's managers
were in London at the time?
A. No, they weren't.
Q. And do you remember there ever being a discussion at AEG Live about pushing the
show start to September?
A. No.
Q. It goes on to say: "Obviously, we have no instructions on this matter whatsoever, and
we have no way of knowing if there's any truth whatsoever in the story, but we wanted to
draw it to your attention
Immediately. They're probably going to run it tomorrow, and most likely it will get a front
cover showing. Please let us know how/if you want us to respond. Best wishes, Alan." Do
you have an idea why Mr. Edwards was sending this to you?
A. Advising us what was going on in the tabloids.
Q. Was that the type of thing he did typically?
A. You know, I felt like every day I was waking up to something like this. You know, it
was a constant barrage of what the tabloids were saying, and I just -- I didn't see why we
had to keep answering them. His philosophy was we have to answer all of these things,
and we have to -- but I wasn't there. I didn't agree with him.
Q. And let me ask you a question about that. You say you were getting these every day. In
your experience working with Mr. Jackson, was he -- was it uncommon for him to be the
subject of tabloid speculation?
A. No. It was sport over in London.
Q. What do you mean by the comment "It was sport over in London"?
A. It was constantly in the papers. They were just constantly talking about it.

Q. Now -- and in this instance, it's about his health. Were there -- was there rampant
speculation about his health at the time in London?
A. Apparently.
Q. And did that bother you?
A. No.
Q. Did it worry you?
A. No.
Q. Well, you had recently learned that Mr. Jackson wanted to take a doctor with him and
bring him to London on the tour. Did you put two and two together and think, well,
there's all this speculation about cancer, and he's bringing a doctor, there must be a
problem?
A. No.
Q. Why not?
A. The tabloids aren't to be believed. They're just not to be taken seriously.
Q. I want to go to your response, if I can. Here it says: "I love this! We will see more and
more of it as we move toward the shows. Rather than answer, we can point to Randy's
previous statement: 'The kid is healthy, rehearsing every day. He was still there at dance
rehearsals at 9:00 PM last night when I left.' Our redemption will be when he does his
shows. That makes all of this buildup so damn sweet. We don't have to sell tickets, so we
can just sit back and prove them wrong by just doing it. I'd say let it go. Just answer with
Randy's statement from before, if at all. Randy? Rob? Paul G."
Well, first of all, what do you mean by "Randy's previous statement"?
A. I don't recall what that was, specifically.
Q. As you sit here today, you don't know what that was referring to?
A. I can't remember.
Q. Okay. You do indicate, however, that you think that you shouldn't respond. Was that a
Typical response from you or not?
A. I don't know if -- it's just how I felt about it. I just didn't see the need to constantly
address these things.
Q. And when you say, "I love this," what did you mean?
A. The controversy. I mean, it's building towards the shows. It's keeping it, you know, in

focus, keeping it in front of people, and it's building towards the shows.
Q. Have you ever seen that kind of buildup before with Mr. Jackson?
A. Hadn't seen it myself, I don't think.
Q. Did it not give you any concern whatsoever?
A. No.
Q. And when you go to say, "our redemption will be when he does the shows" -- you see
that?
A. Yes.
Q. And what did you mean by that?
A. I meant that when Michael Jackson got on that stage, he was going to be a Knockout.
He was just going to be incredible. And the show was so spectacular, that it was just
going to shut up all these guys.
Q. Question for you: at this point, you knew that Mr. Jackson had his personal physician
around. Did you go up to his personal physician and say, "I've seen reports that Mr.
Jackson has some health
Issues"? Did you ask him that?
A. No.
Q. Did you go up to Mr. Jackson and say, "I've read some reports that you have some
health issues?" did you tell him that?
A. No.
Q. What about his managers? Did you ever go to his managers and ask about these cancer
reports?
A. No. If there was something going on, I believe I would have heard it.
Q. What do you mean by that?
A. If he really had cancer, we would have had to deal with a lot of things.
Q. And who would you have expected to hear that from?
A. A manager.
Q. Did you say a manager?
A. Manager, yes.
Q. And what do you mean by a manager?

A. Frank or Dr. Tohme.

Q. And why would you expect to hear that from them?
A. Well, because if there was anything to it, there's just a lot of things we would have to
deal with, you know.
Q. Like what?
A. Well, like, are we going to play these dates or not? Or where are we going to move
them to? Where are we going to go with our rehearsals? Are we going to stop them and
pick them up later? There would have had to be a lot of things to deal with.
Q. But no one ever came to you at any point from Mr. Jackson's team and told you that
they were concerned about his health?
A. No.
Q. They never came to you at any time and said that Mr. Jackson was having tests run
about his health?
A. No.
Q. Did anybody from his team ever say anything to you in this time period that they were
worried about his health?
A. No.
(lunch break)

Q. Mr. Gongaware, before we left for lunch, we were talking about an e-mail chain with
Alan Edwards in the U.K On May 27, 2009.
Do you recall that?

A. Yes.

Q. Can you put that back up, please? I want to show you the beginning of the e-mail, if I
May. This is your responsive e-mail responding to what he had to say, and about the
cancer test. And you say in the second paragraph "the kid is healthy and rehearsing every
day." who did you mean by "the kid"?

A. Michael.

Q. Sorry, sir?

A. Michael Jackson.

Q. Michael Jackson ?

A. Yes.

Q. All right. And it goes on to say "he was still there at dance rehearsals at 9:00 p.m. Last
night when I left."
Do you see that?

A. Yes.

Q. Do you recall writing this e-mail?

A. No.

Q. Would you have written that Mr. Jackson was at rehearsals the night before until 9:00
p.m. If it wasn't true?

A. No.

Q. But as you sit here today, you can't recall him being there until 9:00 p.m. At night,
right?

A. Yeah, I don't remember this one.

Q. Do you recall in this time period, however, believing that Mr. Jackson was healthy and
rehearsing every day?

A. Yes.

Q. Did you have any reason at this point to believe that wasn't true?

A. No.

Q. So that's May 27th, 2009. The night before would have been May 26th, 2009?
A. Right.

Q. I'm going to show for one brief moment, if I can, the demonstrative of the various
rehearsal venues. And so if this is correct, then that would have been at center staging the
night before you moved to the Forum on May 27th; is that correct?

A. Yes.

Q. And before we move there, I want to go back to an exhibit really briefly that we
looked at previously. Do you remember looking at the portion of the movie where there
were the dance rehearsals? Do you remember doing that this morning?

A. Yes.

Q. OK. I want to show you a still from that. What I mean by that is we have stopped the
video at a portion where we had been looking at it this morning. OK?

A. OK.

Mr. Panish: are you talking about the auditions, not the rehearsals?

Mr. Putnam: at the auditions. Yes. I keep saying that. I apologize. These are at the
auditions, and this is I've stopped it there. All right? I'm going to ask you if you can
recognize any of the people sitting there in the audience watching the auditions.

Q. Do you see the man on the left with the white and black shirt?

A. Yeah. That looks like Travis.

Q. Travis? And then just by looking at it, to the right of him, you see a man between
Travis and what looks like Mr. Ortega.

A. Yeah. That's Michael.

Q. That's Mr. Jackson?

A. Yes.

Q. And then was I correct that's Mr. Ortega right there?

A. Right.

Q. Now, just to the right of all of them, there's a man with glasses and silvery hair. Do
you recognize that man?

A. Yeah. That's Frank .

Q. Who is Frank ?

A. Frank Dileo, Michael 's manager.

Q. I just want to point out that when we've talked about Frank Dileo before as his
manager, is that the man we've been talking about?

A. Yes.

Q. So when I asked you if you could recall who was at the auditions this is April 15,
2009. Does this refresh your recollection as to whether Mr. Dileo was there?

A. Yeah, he was there.

Q. OK. And, again, he was Mr. Jackson's manager, correct?

A. Right.

Q. OK. Now, moving on to the Forum, again, all of those that we had talked about were
at center staging except for the auditions, which were at the Nokia theater, right?

A. Right.

Q. And now it's May 27th, and we're moving to the Forum.
Can you remind us why we went from center staging to the Forum?

A. Center staging are just rehearsal halls. The Forum, we were able to build our stage and
put in some of the lighting, start to build our video screen and add some of the gags.

Q. Now, is the Forum another venue that is owned by AEG?

A. No.

Q. Is it one that they lease in any way?

A. Just rented it for this.

Q. So this, you had to actually pay the rent to go and use?

A. Yes.

Q. And in this period of time, we're talking May 27th, in the first ten days of your time at
the Forum , so that's in the first week of June, plus those the last couple of days of May ,
do you recall having any concerns about Mr. Jackson 's rehearsal attendance?

A. No.

Q. Do you recall having any concerns about Mr. Jackson's health?

A. No.

Q. Now, you had spoken earlier about the making of these mini-movies. Do you
remember that?

A. Yes.

Q. Was that done in this time period?

A. Yeah.

Q. Now, where was that done?

A. That was at culver studios in Culver City.

Q. OK. So where you have mini-movies at culver studios, and you have rehearsals at the
Forum . Were these happening on the same days?

A. Yes, some of them.

Q. And do you have any understanding as to whether Mr. Jackson would go to the culver
studios to work on those mini-movies?

A. Yes, he was there for those.

Q. And what about at the Forum itself? Do you have any understanding as to whether, in
this time period, Mr. Jackson was going to rehearsals at the Forum ?

A. I don't remember.

Q. OK. But you do remember that he went to the mini-movies.

A. Yeah.

Q. All right. Now, while you were at the Forum, I believe you've described this already,
but refresh my recollection. Where is the stage that they were working on in the Forum?

A. It's on the floor of the arena.

Q. And was there also a production office at the Forum that you were working in?

A. Yes.

Q. And where was the production office?

A. It was if you're looking at the stage, it was to the left under the stands in some office
space there.

Q. So it wasn't up with the stage itself?

A. No.

Q. Was it on a different level than the stage?

A. It was on the floor level of the arena floor.

Q. Like at a basketball game? You know at a. Basketball game, you go through the stands
and walk out into hallways behind? Is that what you were talking about here?

A. Well, these would these were underneath the stands, these offices.

Q. So if I'm sorry.

A. The offices were underneath the stands.

Q. So if I were standing on the stage, could I see your office?

A. Probably not.

Q. Is was there a wall between where you were and the stage itself?

A. There was like a hallway that led back to it.

Q. OK. I have a question to ask you about. In this time period, where were Mr. Jackson
and Mr. Ortega rehearsing?

A. Where were they rehearsing?

Q. Uh-huh. Where were they working in this time period?

A. At the Forum.

Q. And did they have a room that they worked in?

A. Michael had a dressing room area, and you know, where they could meet and stuff;
but the rehearsals were being done, at that point, on the stage.

Q. OK. Now, where was Mr. Ortega's office compared to where your office was?

A. He was over on the other side over by Michael's dressing room.

Q. OK. That's what I was going to ask you next, about Mr. Jackson. So Mr. Jackson and
Mr. Ortega's dressing rooms were on one side, and yours was on the other side?

A. Yes.

Q. And was the stage in between?

A. Yeah, the whole arena floor.

Q. Now, at this point in time, were you watching all of the rehearsals?

A. No. I'd go out and look here and there, but I wasn't watching all of them.

Q. Now I'm going to ask you about something that was testified to earlier. Do you know
who Karen Faye is?

A. Yes.

Q. Who is Karen Faye?

A. A hairdresser and a makeup, I think, artist.

Q. All right. She testified earlier that she heard you at the Forum on the phone telling one
of Michael's security guards to get Michael out of the bathroom, and then asking and
then your asking him if he had a key, and your then telling him to get Michael to
rehearsals whatever it takes. Did that ever happen?

A. No, that never happened.

Q. Well, your memory let me ask you. Are you sure that never happened?

A. I'm sure that never happened.

Q. Why are you sure that never happened?

A. That's not something I would have done.

Q. What do you mean by that?

A. I wouldn't have been calling asking to get somebody get a key and get Michael out of
a bathroom, I wouldn't have been calling saying get him to rehearsals.

Q. Did you ever call Mr. Jackson and tell him he needed to get to rehearsals?

A. No.

Q. Did you ever call and tell anyone that Mr. Jackson needed to get to rehearsals?

A. No.

Q. Do you recall Ms. Faye ever coming to visit you in your office?

A. I don't recall, no.

Q. But she May have?

A. She might have.

Q. But this incident that she's testified to, that's something that you believe never
happened?

A. Never, never happened.

Q. All right. You see this is a series of e-mails, again, with Mr. Edwards, Mr. Hallett,
yourself, Mr. Phillips, as well as a couple of other named folks. Do you see that?

A. Yes.

Q. And without going through all of them, do you see that there's also further inquiries
about various things that are published in various of the tabloids in London?

A. Yes.

Q. So, for example, just as an example, on the fifth page, which is 7433.005 in the middle
there, there's something to Natalie whorms. I don't know if that's how you pronounces it.

A. Yes.

Q. And it says "a call has come in from the Sunday Mirror. Their source has told them
that MJ Is in negotiations with AEG Live to reduce the number of dates by half. Also, the
source has said that his contract stipulates that if he pulls out of one show or does not
attend a sufficient number of rehearsals, he
Will not be paid for any of the shows." was there ever a time when AEG Live was in
negotiations with


Judge:: hold on. Juror number 12, you're not feeling too well?

25 minutes break




Judge: so we can continue, so let's do that.


Mr. Putnam: all right, your honor.
Before we left, we were talking about a
Series of e-mails, exhibit number 7433. And, again, it
Was with your PR. Guy in the U.K And London named Alan Edwards



Q. Do you remember that, sir?

A. Yes.

Q. And we just talked about this part of it, where it indicates that a call had come in from
the Sunday Mirror, a source had told them that "MJ Is in negotiations with AEG Live to
reduce the number of dates by half." now, before I go to the second part, let me ask you
about that. Do you recall a time where AEG Live was ever in negotiations with Mr.
Jackson to halve the number of dates he was going to perform at the U.K?

A. No.

Q. Do you remember hearing anything about any such discussions ever?

A. No, there were we never talked about that that I can remember.

Q. It goes on to say "also, the source has said MJ's contract stipulates that if he pulls out
of one show or does not attend a sufficient number of rehearsals, he will not be paid for
any of the shows." now, if I recall correctly, you haven't seen the contract, right?

A. No, I haven't seen it.

Q. Did you ever have an understanding that if Mr. Jackson did not attend a sufficient
number of rehearsals, he would not be paid for any of the shows?

A. No.

Q. Did anyone ever tell you that?

A. No.

Q. Did you ever have that discussion with anyone?

A. No.

Q. And similarly, did you have any understanding that the contract with Mr. Jackson
stipulated that if he pulled out of a show, he would not be paid for any show?


Mr. Panish: no foundation; objection.

Judge: sustained.

Mr. Putnam: let me ask this.


Q. Did you ever have a discussion with anyone that indicated that if Mr. Jackson did not
perform one show, that he wouldn't that he wouldn't be paid for any show?


Mr. Panish: objection; it calls for hearsay, the answer.

Mr. Putnam: I'm asking if he's ever had that discussion with anyone.

Judge: overruled. You May answer.

A. no, I never had that discussion.

Q. Now, this is I'm going to go back

A. Page. There are a series of e-mails here. But a. Couple later, you respond and this is
now on page 07433.0002. This is on June 5th, 2009; and it has your writing. And it starts
with "I wake up to one of these every day." you previously indicated that you thought at
the time that there were a lot of tabloid
Speculation.

Q. Is that what you're talking about here?

A. Yes.

Q. And did you wake up to something like this every day?

A. I don't know if it was every day, but it was a lot of it.

Q. And now going back to the last e-mail in that chain, which would be on the first page,
this is now Friday, June 5th, 2009, same "re" line, the Sunday Mirror query. Again, this is
now to Alan Edwards , with c.c.'s to Celena Aponte, Natalie Whorms,
Randy Phillips, and rob Hallett, as well as Amy Morrison. Who is Amy Morrison?

A. She does our marketing.

Q. And Natalie Whorms is who?

A. She was with our press agents.

Q. So that would be Alan Edwards ?

A. Yes.

Q. And I want to go through a little bit here your response, if I May . Initially, you talk
here about a number of artists that you've worked with over a number of years. Do you
see that? It says "there have been a lot of big artists I have worked with over the years
where the traditional press/artist relationship was, indeed, the right thing. Only maybe
three have been different." do you see that?

A. Yes.

Q. And you go on to talk about Elvis. After that, you talk about led zeppelin. And then in
the next paragraph, you say "and then there's Michael Jackson. He's way beyond even
those icons." the next line, "with MJ we don't have to react to the press. We can decide
what we want to do and then do it. It's a unique position to be in." now, do you have any
idea what you were referring to in that instance?

A. Well, they keep they kept wanting us to react to all these stories, and we didn't have to.


Q. And why did you believe you didn't have to?

A. Because of the unique position, like I said there, that Michael was in. He's bigger than
that and beyond that.

Q. And if you go down a couple of lines paragraphs, we get to this one. "we can only
make this work, of course, if MJ Puts on the best show of his life. I'm here to tell you that
he will. I've seen it for myself. Last night, he ran nine songs with full band, singers and
dancers, sang every one. "he was amazing, captivating, riveting. And he's just getting
started." do you see that?

A. Yes.


Q. Now, when you say "we can only make this work, of course, if MJ Puts on the best
show of his life," what do you mean by that?

A. Well, if you're relying on if you were relying on your answer to be his show, it's to
get rid of all this all of this crap that's out there in the in the tabloids, then the show has
got to be good, and that will answer it.

Q. So in your mind, then, the answer to these tabloid reports was going to be the show
that you put on?

A. Yes.

Q. And did you have any reason to believe as of Friday, June 5th, 2009, that you weren't
going to put on a great show?

A. Oh, no. It was going to be great.

Q. You go on to say, "in fact, I'm here to tell you that he will. I've seen it for myself. Last
night he ran nine songs with full band, singers and dancers, sang every one." now, if this
was written on June 5th, then the night before would have been June the 4th, 2009,
correct?

A. Yes.

Q. Now, do you remember writing this e-mail?

A. No.

Q. OK. Do you remember Mr. Jackson going through nine songs in an evening at the
Forum ?

A. Well, this refreshes my recollection.

Q. OK. That would have been the first week of June at the Forum , correct?

A. Yes.

Q. Now, do you know who Alif Sankey is?

A. She was an assistant choreographer.

Q. Alif Sankey has been here previously, and she indicated that she didn't believe that Mr.
Jackson ever rehearsed during that first week of June. And I asked you before I showed
you this if you could recall him rehearsing during the first week of June, and you said you
couldn't recall. Now that you've seen this, do you recall whether Mr. Jackson was
rehearsing at the Forum during that first week of June?

A. Yes, he was.


Q. And according to this e-mail you sent, it indicates he went through at least nine songs
on the evening of the 4th, correct?

A. Right.

Q. Now, in this e-mail, are you directing that your PR people tell the press that Mr.
Jackson is performing?

A. No, I don't think so.

Q. Are you directing anybody to tell anybody externally that that's what Mr. Jackson was
doing?

A. No. I think it's just the opposite.

Q. What do you mean, "it's just the opposite"?

A. We shouldn't be answering all of these daily tabloid lies or inferences or whatever they
do. We should just wait; let the show be our answer.

Q. And after that, you go on to say "he's just getting started." what did you mean by that?

A. Over time, he would be improving and getting much, much better.

Q. And did you have any reason to believe that would be true?

A. Sure.

Q. Why?

A. Because as he worked at it, he did get better.

Q. In the next paragraph, you say "taking it one step further, when people realize what
bullshit the press has been, they will be in a more receptive mood for the truth. That's
when we come with a carefully crafted, positive vibe. 'Hey, look, no skin cancer. He's just
a good dad, lovingly raising his kids. His art and his craft are paramount; a gentile, loving
man who does care about people.'" did you believe that?

A. Yes.

Q. Why?

A. It's true.

Q. What do you mean?

A. Well, there was no skin cancer. He was a. Good dad and he was doing a great job with
his kids. And his art and his craft did come first; and when you'd see the show, you'd
realize that.

Q. Why do you say his art and his craft were paramount?

A. Well, just because I think they are. The way if you see his shows, you'd understand it.

Q. Why if I saw his shows would I understand that?

A. He's just that good.

Q. To your knowledge, had Mr. Jackson ever put on a concert that was going to have the
scale of "this is it"?

A. He'd done some big shows. I mean, the stadium shows he did were big. But this one
was going to be this one was going to be spectacular.

Q. And did you have an understanding as to whether that was important to Mr. Jackson?

A. Yes, it was.

Q. And why do you say that?

A. He said that; he wants to put on the biggest, best show ever.

Q. Who did he say that to?

A. He told me.

Q. Now, going back to these mini-movies, you said that was during the first week of
June, that was at culver studios as opposed to at the Forum. And let me go to one, if I
May . I'd like to show what is in trial exhibit the movie 12927, and it's the making of
"they don't care about us." I'm not going to show you the whole thing. All right? I'm
going to show you a portion of it, ask you if you recall it, and ask you some questions
about it. OK?

A. OK.

(a video recording was played.)

Mr. Putnam: all right. Stop it there. We've seen this you weren't here, but the jury has
seen this previously with someone else, so I'm not going to show the whole thing, but I'm
going to ask you a question about it.


Q. Do you recognize where this is?

A. That's culver studios, where we were shooting the mini-movies.

Q. And the green screen there what is green screen?

A. That's the that green would be replaced with other images.

Q. What do you mean by "replaced by other images"?

A. Well, it's just green right now; but you can put in there anything you want. You can put
a. Background in there. In this case, they're going to just keep multiplying the dancers so
that it looks like an army.

Q. And as of this time period, how did Mr. Jackson appear to you?

A. He was great.

Q. Now, you'll see that this is an e-mail to you from Randy Phillips. It's on august 10th,
2009.that was after Mr. Jackson passed, correct?

A. Yes.

Q. Do you remember being asked a series of questions about this e-mail?

A. Yes.

Q. OK. Let me read it. "make sure we take out the shots of MJ In that red leather jacket at
the sound stage where the mini-movies were being filmed. He looks way too think and
skeletal." did I read that correctly?

A. Yes.

Q. And there had been some testimony that "think" was probably too "thin," correct?

A. Probably.

Q. All right. And do you remember being asked whether you ever removed anything from
the movie because of this e-mail?

A. Yes.

Q. So did you remove anything from the movie?

A. No.

Q. Did you ever have a discussion with Mr. Phillips about Mr. Jackson in a red leather
jacket at the sound stage where the mini-movies were being made?

A. I May have.

Q. Do you remember?

A. I don't remember.

Q. OK. I'd like to show you another clip from exhibit 12927. It's called "the making of
"thriller."


(a video recording was played.)


Mr. Putnam: stop for one second, please. Go back for just a second. Is that possible?
Now, before we continue from here, let me ask you some questions, Mr. Gongaware.

Q. Is this the filming of the mini-movie at culver studios?

A. Yes.

Q. And which of the mini-movies is this one?

A. "Thriller."

Q. And I just stopped the clip. I'll continue.

Can you see what Mr. Jackson is wearing here?

A. Yeah; that's the red leather jacket.

Q. So let me make sure I understand it. Is this the red leather jacket at the sound stage
where the mini-movies were being filmed?

A. Yeah, I believe so, yes.

Q. And is this in the actual documentary "this is it"?

A. Yes.


Mr. Putnam: OK. Will you continue with that, please?

(a video recording was played.)

Q. so you didn't take this out of the movie, correct, sir?

A. No.

Q. Can you understand how somebody let me ask you, do you think Mr. Jackson there
looks too thin and skeletal?

A. No.

Q. Now, can you understand how someone else might?

A. Yeah, maybe.

Q. Did you consider ever removing this portion of the movie from the movie?
A. No.

Q. Did you ever try to take any footage out of the movie because Mr. Jackson was too
thin or skeletal?

A. No.

Q. What did you want the strike that. In making you were involved in the making of the
"this is it" documentary, correct?

A. Yes.

Q. Did you have what did you want the documentary to show? Did you have anything in
mind?

A. Yeah. We wanted to show what really happened, how Michael actually created his
show.

Q. And why is that?

A. Well, I mean, it was a documentary, and that's sort of what would what it would have
to be about.

Q. And did you try to present a skewed vision of who Mr. Jackson was?

A. No.
Q. Did you try to alter in any way how Mr. Jackson looked?

A. No.

Q. Did you try to alter in any way how Mr. Jackson appeared?

A. No.

Q. Did you was there ever was it ever contemplated that additional footage would be
shot?

A. Kenny talked about it, but it never happened.

Q. OK. And how did you think did you see the entire movie?

A. Yes.

Q. Did you see how much of the footage did you see?

A. Most of it.

Q. Of that footage, can you recall anything specifically not being included because Mr.
Jackson didn't look good?

A. No. We just let the footage speak for itself.

Q. Now, going back to these 3d movies, how were these going to be played during the
tour?

A. They would be integrated into live songs.

Q. And you'd indicated earlier there was another one for "earth song"; is that correct?

A. Yes.


Mr. Putnam: again, from the same exhibit, your honor, 12927, I'm going to show a clip
called "comments
On the making of earth song."

(a video recording was played.)


Mr. Putnam: all right. Now let me ask you a. Question.

Q. Again, is this one of the mini-movies that were going to be shown during the tour?

A. Yes.

Q. Do these videos accurately depict the
Production of the mini-movies at the Culver studios?

A. Yes.

Q. Now, we talked about elements earlier, various elements I think you called them gags
that were going to be included in the show. We talked about the suit coming down, you'll
recall; we talked about the cherry picker going out. Do you remember whether there was
any similar element or gag that was going to be used during the mini-movie of "earth
song"?

A. Yes, the near the end of it, the a bulldozer would come out from a ramp in the center
of the stage.

Q. A bulldozer would come out?

A. Yeah.

Q. And were you going to use a real bulldozer?

A. I wish. It would have been a lot cheaper, but it would have crushed our ramps.

Q. OK. And so whose idea was it to use a. Bulldozer in this segment?

A. Kenny and Michael.

Q. And did they come to you with that element and see how you were going to solve it so
you could get something that wouldn't crush the stage?

A. We ended up having to actually build one.

Q. And when you say you had to "build" one, what do you mean?

A. We had to fabricate a prop that looked like

A. Bulldozer.

Q. And was that being worked on in this time period?

A. Yes, yeah. We hadn't received it at the time.

Q. So the time of Mr. Jackson's passing, had you received the bulldozer yet?

A. No.

Q. Do you remember where it was being built?

A. I think at I think that one was at magic craft in Burbank.


Mr. Putnam: in Burbank? Now, your honor, I'm going to show the "earth song" bulldozer,
if I May. That's, again, from exhibit 12927.

(a video recording was played.)

Q. now, Mr. Gongaware, does that clip appear to depict the bulldozer element that you
were just talking about?

A. Yeah, that's an animation of it.

Q. I want to break that down. That's what I want to ask about, so let me talk about various
parts of it. There are pats of it that I can see where there's the girl running through it
looks like a. Jungle, and there's a bulldozer in that scene. What is that?

A. That represents, I think, environmental the destruction of the environment, and the girl
sees one plant that's still alive and tries to save it.


Q. And in doing that, I'm curious that part, that was something that was already shot?
Where was that shot?

A. The plant and everything?

Q. That whole part, yes?

A. At Culver.

Q. So is that the mini-movie?

A. Yes.

Q. OK. So that's the mini-movie part. And then you had some parts where you saw Mr.
Jackson going out on a cherry picker. What is that?

A. That was part of the song, as well.

Q. And where was that shot, do you know?

A. It would have been either the Forum or Staples .

Q. So that was filmed during one of the rehearsals?

A. Yes.

Q. And then you talked about animation. At the end, there's clearly some animation with
the bulldozer coming up and an animated figure of Mr. Jackson standing in front. What is
that?

A. That was just a an animation that Michael Cotten, the production designer, did to
illustrate what the scene would look like.

Q. And so that is that how it was going to be actually is that how it was going to occur on
the tour at a concert?

A. Yes.

Q. And when you talked about building a. Bulldozer, that thing that I'm seeing, is that the
bulldozer you were building that would come up onstage?

A. Yes.

Q. So it was going to actually function, it would move?

A. Oh, yeah.

Q. Now, you talked about the girl running and getting the plant.
Did you think that was a little hokey?

A. No. I thought it was really powerful.

Q. Why?

A. It just I think the live audience would have just been just captivated by it.

Q. How was the show going to end?

A. Well, if you look at the some of the stuff, especially from the Forum, there's that black
sort of rectangle in the screen.
That was a what we were trying to do there is we were still trying to figure out how to
make that a door where the door would actually open, and the gag was an airplane taxis
up to exactly that spot, stairs get pushed in place, and then the door opens, and Michael
gets on the airplane, the door closes, Michael disappears down an elevator, and this is
the end of the show and he's gone, he's out of the building.
But the airplane then taxis down to the end of the runway, we're all in 3d at that point,
and it turns around and flies out over the audience in 3d.


Q. And was that one of the mini 3d movies thats being made at culver?

A. No. That was going to be all a different kind of animation.

Q. And whose idea was that?

A. Michael and Kenny.

Q. And was that animation being worked on at the time of his passing?

A. I believe it was, yeah.

Q. So at this point in time we're in the beginning of June 2009, the mini-movies are being
made at culver, and there's also rehearsals going on at the Forum. In this time period let's

take the first couple of weeks do you recall there ever being an issue in that time period
with Mr. Jackson 's health?

A. No.

Q. Do you recall in that time period there ever being any discussion that Mr. Jackson
might be too thin?

A. No.

Q. In that time period, do you remember any discussion at all that Mr. Jackson might not
be attending all the rehearsals that he needed to?

A. No, I don't remember anything.


Q. As you will see, this is a series of three e-mails between you and Kenny Ortega. At the
top, it's to Paul Gongaware, the top one, from ortegakenneth, Monday the 5th.
"importance, normal; subject, "stylist."do you see that?

A. Yes.

Q. Do you remember being asked a series of questions about these e-mails?

A. Yes.

Q. Now, start off do you remember receiving these e-mails?

A. No.

Q. But do you in any measure deny that are you saying here today you didn't write this
e-mail?

A. No. I just don't remember getting it.

Q. OK. And so you don't remember getting it, you don't remember sending it, but you
don't deny that that occurred, correct?

A. Right, that's right.

Q. Now, the "re" line says "stylist," correct?

A. Yes.

Q. What do you understand that to mean?

A. I think that was from the beginning of the chain. A. Stylist is someone who was going
to be shopping for costumes for I guess for band, dancers and singers.

Q. And the importance is normal. What does that mean to you?

A. Just one of hundreds.

Q. OK. Let's go to the first e-mail in the chain. I want to ask you some different
questions, if I can. This is on the 14th; and Kenny Ortega wrote, "Paul, I just wanted to
remind you to get our additional stylist on board a.s.a.p. So she can begin shopping this
week." do you see that?

A. Yes.

Q. And reading that, do you have an understanding as to what Mr. Ortega was asking of
you?

A. Yes.

Q. What was that?

A. He wanted another stylist to pick up the slack, I guess you'd say, to get things moving
in wardrobe.

Q. OK. And it goes on and that's what the "re" line is about, right? "stylist"?

A. Right.

Q. OK. And then it goes on to say "I also May require your assistance in putting a few
things in place for MJ We should discuss this in person, as it's personal." do you see that?

A. Yes.

Q. As you sit here today, can you recall what that was about?

A. No.

Q. No memory at all?

A. No.

Q. OK. After that, it then goes on to say "were you aware that MJ's doctor didn't permit
him to attend rehearsals yesterday?" do you see that?

A. Yes.

Q. And do you remember being asked a whole bunch of questions about that?

A. Yes.

Q. All right. Let me ask you some myself. Do you have an understanding who "MJ's
doctor" is?

A. That would be Dr. Murray.

Q. Why do you understand that "MJ's doctor" is Dr. Murray?

A. Because Dr. Murray was MJ's doctor.

Q. How did you learn that?

A. Just through the course of all this.

Q. Had you known that before, the first time that Mr. Jackson spoke to you and said that
he wanted to bring his doctor on tour?

A. I think that's where I learned it. I didn't know before, though.

Q. OK. And so it says "MJ's doctor." the let me ask you a question. Do you have an
understanding as to why

Mr. Ortega didn't refer to Dr. Conrad Murray as the tour doctor?


Mr. Panish: objection; there's no foundation, calls for speculation.

Mr. Putnam: I'm asking if he has an understanding.

Judge: sustained.

Mr. Panish: no, no.

Judge: why the writer didn't refer to

Mr. Panish: right. There's no foundation.

Judge: sustained. Calls for speculation.

Mr. Putnam: all right. He was asked a series of questions, your honor, as to what he
understood this meant.

Judge: right. But you're asking him what the writer understood.


Mr. Putnam: right. OK.

Q. Was there ever a time that you can recall where anyone referred to Dr. Conrad Murray
as the tour doctor?

A. I don't know. He wasn't the tour doctor, he was Michael's doctor.

Q. Did you ever hear anybody ever refer to Dr. Conrad Murray as AEG Live's doctor?

A. No, he wasn't AEG Live's doctor.

Q. And here Mr. Ortega refers to him as MJ's doctor, correct?

A. Yes.

Q. He then goes on to say "were you aware that MJ's doctor didn't permit him to attend
rehearsals yesterday?" do you see that?

A. Yes.

Q. Do you have any idea why Mr. Ortega would be asking you if you had any idea of
this?

A. I don't know why he would ask.

Q. Well, if you were at rehearsals, wouldn't you have known whether or not Mr. Jackson
was there?

A. If he was there, I probably would have known it; but I don't recall the specific day.

Q. OK. He it goes on to say "are Randy and Frank aware of this?" do you see that?

A. Yes.

Q. Who did you understand Randy to be?

A. Randy, our CEO and Frank, the Michael 's manager.

Q. And, again, that was the man that we saw in the picture, Frank Dileo ?

A. Yes.

Q. Now, did you have an understanding as to why he was asking if Randy or Frank were
aware of the fact that the doctor had told Mr. Jackson not to attend a. Rehearsal?

A. No.

Q. He then goes on to say "please have them stay on top of his health." do you see that?

A. Yes.

Q. Do you have an understanding as to why he was saying that Randy and Frank should
stay on top of his health?

A. It actually says "health situation."

Q. Thank you. Sorry.

A. But I don't know why he was asking that.

Q. So and that was really my question, because you were asked a series of questions as
to how you interpreted this paragraph. Do you have any idea what Mr. Ortega meant
when he wrote this to you?

A. No.

Q. At that point in time, had anyone ever said to you that there was a problem with Mr.
Jackson's health?

A. No.

Q. It goes on to say "without invading MJ's privacy, it might be a good idea to talk with
his doctor to make sure everything MJ Requires is in place." do you see that?

A. Yes.

Q. Now, did you have an understanding when you read this, or can you recall why it
would say "without invading MJ's privacy"?

A. Well, what happens between someone and their doctor is private.

Q. Do you have any problem with the idea that he says here "it might be a good idea to
talk with the doctor to make sure everything MJ Requires is in place"?

A. No, I think it's all right.

Q. And so the idea of talking to Dr. Conrad Murray, making sure everything was in place,
that's not something that bothers you in any way?

A. No.

Q. OK. It then goes on to say "who is responsible for MJ Getting proper nourishment,
vitamins, therapy every day?" do you see that?

A. Yes.

Q. Did you have an understanding as to who was responsible for MJ Getting proper
nourishment, vitamins and therapy every day?

A. No, I don't know that anybody was.

Q. Is it your understanding that anybody at AEG Live was in any way responsible for
making sure Mr. Jackson got proper nourishment, vitamins or therapy every day?

A. No.

Q. Excuse me, sir?

A. No, there wasn't anybody at AEG That I knew of.

Q. OK. "personally I feel he should have a. Top nutritionist and physical therapist
working with him on a regular basis." do you see that?

A. Yes.

Q. Did you have any problem with the idea of Mr. Jackson having a top nutritionist or
physical therapist working with him on a regular basis?

A. No. I thought it would be fine.

Q. It then goes on to say "the demands on this guy are mentally and physically
extraordinary." did you agree with that at the time?

A. Oh, yeah.

Q. And it says "the show requirements exhaust our 20-year-olds." would you agree with
that at the time?

A. Yeah, I guess so.

Q. And it says "please don't underestimate the need to stay on top of this." do you see all
that?

A. Yes.

Q. Did you ever have this type of meeting with Dr. Conrad Murray, the one that he says
should be had?

A. Yes.

Q. And is that the time we talked about two phone calls previously. We'd also talked
about two meetings or I should say one meeting and one encounter. Is this one of those?

A. Yes, I there was a meeting like that, yes.

Q. Do you remember if it happened before or after this e-mail?

A. I don't remember for sure.

Q. Would it make sense to you that that would have been as a result of this e-mail?


Mr. Panish: it calls for speculation, no foundation. He said he doesn't know.

Judge: overruled.

A. it makes sense to me, yes.


Q. but as you sit here today, you just don't know?

A. I just don't know for sure.

Q. Do you remember whether that meeting took place in June?

A. Yes.

Q. And just to make sure I got it clear, how many meetings, actual meetings, did you have
with Dr. Conrad Murray?

A. I met him once at the meeting at the Carolwood house, and then I saw him briefly at
one night at rehearsals at the Forum .

Q. And that second night the second time at rehearsals at the Forum , was that a meeting?

A. No.

Q. So the only meeting, then, is a meeting at Carolwood?

A. Yes.

Q. Now, at that meeting, did you talk to Dr. Conrad Murray to make sure Michael had
everything he needed, as Kenny's e-mail suggests?

A. Yes, I did. I did that.

Q. Now, do you recall which of you talked about this with Mr. Jackson ?

A. Talked oh, you mean in the meeting?

Q. Uh-huh.

A. No, I don't remember specifically.

Q. OK. Who was in the meeting again, sir?

A. Randy, Kenny, Dr. Murray, Michael, I was there, and Frank was there, I believe.

Q. And by that, you mean Frank Dileo ?

A. Yes.

Q. So you know this was talked about, you just don't know who talked about it?

A. Right.

Q. OK. During that meeting, did you ever tell Dr. Conrad Murray how you thought he
should be treating Michael Jackson?

A. No.

Q. Do you recall anyone in that meeting ever telling Dr. Conrad Murray how he should
be treating Michael Jackson?
A. No.

Q. Did Mr. Murray explain did Dr. Conrad Murray explain to any of you at that meeting
what kind of treatment he was providing to Mr. Jackson?

A. No, he didn't talk about what treatments.

Q. Did Mr. Jackson talk about what kind of treatments he was receiving from Dr. Conrad
Murray?

A. No.

Q. Now, you do remember that such a meeting took place, correct?

A. Yes.

Q. Other than nutrition, do you remember anything else being discussed at that meeting?

A. It was it was generally about those
Kinds of things; nutrition, vitamins, therapy, that sort of stuff.

Q. Well, at one point, you have been asked a. Very specific question that says you had
indicated that you had asked Dr. Conrad Murray if there was anything he needed. Do you
remember providing that testimony?

A. Yes.

Q. What did you mean by asking Dr. Conrad Murray if there was anything he needed?

A. I just wanted to make sure that whatever he needed to take care of Michael, he had.

Q. Well, for example, if did you mean that if there was anything illegal that might help
him, that you'd get that, as well?

A. No.

Q. If Dr. Conrad Murray had come to you and said that he wanted something that was not
medically appropriate for Mr. Jackson , but he wanted it anyway, to help, would you have
provided it?

A. No.

Q. Did was there any point in time where anyone ever said to you that Dr. Conrad
Murray was providing Mr. Jackson with Propofol?

A. No.

Q. Had you ever heard of Propofol at this point in time?

A. No, never.

Q. When was the first time you heard of Propofol, sir?

A. After he passed away.


Q. At this point in time, did you have any reason to believe that Dr. Conrad Murray
would do anything untoward with Mr. Jackson ?

A. No, not at all. In the meeting, he seemed like he was
Really something like he really cared about Michael , he was paying attention, he was
he was engaged in the meeting, he was he seemed like a. Really intelligent guy.

Q. This was the first time you'd met him, correct?

A. Yes.

Q. Were you impressed by him?

A. Yeah, I kind of was.

Q. Was he likeable to you at all?

A. Yes, he was.

Q. Was there anything from that meeting that led you to believe that Dr. Conrad Murray
might be doing something inappropriate with his patient, Michael Jackson ?

A. No, nothing at all.

Q. And it's easy at this point in time to look back with 20/20 as to what we know now;
but at that time when you first met him, was there any sign to you at all that he might be
doing something with Mr. Jackson that was inappropriate?

A. No, there was no sign, nothing not at all.

Q. What about for Mr. Jackson? Did you have any sign at this meeting that Mr. Jackson
something
Inappropriate might be happening between him and his doctor?

A. No. Michael was engaged in the meeting, he was he was engaged and attentive and
it seemed like he was happy that we were talking about this stuff, we were having this
meeting.

Q. Now, you'd indicated that you hadn't told Dr. Conrad Murray how to treat his patient.
Would you think it appropriate to tell a. Doctor how to treat his patient?

A. No; never.

Q. Why is that?

A. He's a doctor. He would know better than anybody how to treat his patient.

Q. Now, in retrospect, that might not be true, however, correct?

A. Yes.

Q. But at the time, did you have any reason to believe that wasn't true?

A. No.

Q. And are you qualified in some way to tell a. Doctor how to treat his patient?

A. No, not at all.

Q. Do you have any medical training at all?

A. No.

Q. And can you recall at any point ever telling Dr. Conrad Murray how to treat Michael
Jackson ?

A. No, I never did.

Q. And were you present when anyone ever told Dr. Conrad Murray how to treat Michael
Jackson ?

A. No, never.

Q. Now, having gone through this e-mail, the one that the "re" line is "stylist," I want to
ask you a. Question. Is there anything about this e-mail that gave you concern about Mr.
Jackson 's health and wellbeing?

A. No.

Q. Now let's look at your response to that. Actually, strike that. Let me do this. If in your
opinion, if Mr. if Mr. Ortega was concerned about Mr. Jackson 's health in a. Serious
way, would the "re" line say "stylist"?


Mr. Panish: objection; foundation, speculation.


Judge: I'm sorry. Repeat your question.

Mr. Putnam: my question was if he had any reason to believe that Dr. that Kenny
Ortega had some concern about Mr. Jackson 's health, whether in the "re" line he
would have put "stylist" as the topic.

Judge: and your objection?

Mr. Panish: no foundation, speculation.

Judge: speculation, sustained.

Mr. Putnam: OK.


Q. The "re" line on this is "stylist," though, correct?

A. Yes.

Q. Did you have anything in this is there anything in this e-mail from Mr. Ortega where
he indicates that he believes that Mr. Jackson was in danger for his health? Do you see
that anywhere in here?

A. I don't.

Q. What about the fact that Mr. Jackson needed proper nourishment?

A. I don't consider that a danger to himself.

Q. What about vitamins?

A. Same.

Q. What about therapy every day?

A. I think those are all good ideas.

Q. Were any of them things that led you to believe that Mr. Jackson might have a
problem with his health at this time?

A. No.

Q. All right. Let's look at your response. And this is the one you were asked lots of
questions about. I'll go through it quickly. It says "Frank and I have discussed it already
and have requested a face-to-face meeting with the doctor, hopefully Monday. We want to
remind him that it is AEG, not MJ, who is paying his salary. We want him to understand
what is expected of him. He has been dodging Frank so far." again, you don't recall
writing this, correct?

A. No.

Q. But you don't deny writing it, do you?

A. No, I don't deny it.

Q. Now, the first thing to ask is this. It says that you've requested a face-to-face meeting.
Why is it a request? Why didn't you just demand that he see you?

A. He was Michael's doctor.

Q. Did you have any belief that you could demand that Dr. Conrad Murray see you at any
point?

A. No.

Q. And you say that "Frank and I have discussed it already." can you recall, as you sit
here today, what you and Frank discussed?

A. No, not specifically.

Q. It goes on to say "we want to remind him that AEG, not MJ, is paying his salary." do
you see that?

A. Yes.

Q. Do you remember writing it?

A. No.

Q. Do you have any idea why you might have written that AEG Is paying his salary?

A. No. I mean, I was mistaken there. We weren't going to pay his salary. We would have
advanced the money on Michael's instructions.

Q. Did you ever have a meeting with Dr. Conrad Murray where you told him that AEG
Live was going to pay his salary?

A. No.

Q. Are you sure of that?

A. Positive.

Q. Was AEG Live paying Dr. Conrad Murray's salary?

A. Well, Michael Jackson would have been paying his salary; but AEG Would have
advanced the Monday.

Q. But as of this point in time when it was written, June 14th, 2009 at that point, was
AEG Live advancing Dr. Conrad Murray any money at all?

A. No. We never did.

Q. And do you understand whether at that point in time, Mr. Jackson was paying his
doctor for the services he was providing?

A. I have no idea.

Q. Did you ever come to learn that AEG Live had ever paid Dr. Conrad Murray, as it says
here?

A. No, we never did.

Q. Now, you said that AEG Live would have advanced the salary. In what scenario would
AEG Live have advanced the salary to Dr. Conrad Murray?

A. If Michael would have signed the contract and if he would have told us to pay it, we
would have.

Q. It goes on to say "we want to remind him what is expected of him." did you have any
expectations on Dr. Conrad Murray?

A. Yes. I expected him to take care of his patient.

Q. But anything beyond that? I mean, did you expect a certain type of treatment?

A. No.

Q. Did you expect that he would do what AEG Live told him?

A. No.

Q. Did AEG Live ever tell him to do something, to your knowledge?

A. No.

Q. Did you ever have a discussion with Dr. Conrad Murray as to what you believed his
the expectations were?

A. No.

Q. So now let's look at the e-mail right above. OK?

A. Yes.

Q. And this is Mr. Ortega's response to your response. Do you see that?

A. Yes.

Q. Now, it says "MJ Did not have a good Friday, and he didn't show on Saturday. He has
been habitually late, the norm." in your opinion, was it normal for Mr. Jackson to be
habitually late?


Mr. Panish: objection; foundation.

Judge: overruled.

A. yes, that was generally the norm.


Q. did that concern you, that Mr. Jackson was often late?

A. No. He ran on his own schedule.

Q. In the several decades that you worked with him, was that a normal pattern, for him to
be late?

A. Yes.

Q. And when you say that he worked "on his own schedule," what do you mean?

A. He just did things his own way, on his own time.

Q. All right. Going on

A. I mean, when it came to a show or something, he was always there.

Q. It goes on to say "I realize he's up against a lot. I have a ton of love and sympathy for
what he's been through. We must do all we can as a. Team to stay on top of his needs
every day. He requires more attention and management. "as I mentioned, I truly believe
he needs nourishment, guidance and physical therapy, massage, for his fatigued muscles
and injuries." do you see that?

A. Yes.

Q. It goes on to say "he is not in great physical shape. I believe he's hurting. He has been
slow at grabbing hold of the work. We have 20 days, we can't let him slip. I'm doing all I
can every day to build up his confidence and to create a schedule that will help to ready
him and to arrive us at our goals." now, a little bit about that. Did you have an
understanding that Kenny Ortega was working with Mr. Jackson on his schedule?

A. Yeah, Kenny and Michael set that schedule.

Q. It goes on to say "every time he is late or cancels, it chisels away at that possibility.
There can be no more calls to Travis asking him to come to the house. MJ Needs to be
told that it's time to get real. "he must take care of himself so that he can meet the
schedule, or there are going to be consequences. We need a healthy, rested and ready MJ
At the Forum and Staples for all the remaining rehearsals, as well as the few we have at
the 02 in July. Thanks, K.O." do you see that?

A. Yes.

Q. Did I read that right?

A. Yes.

Q. Was there anything in this that gave you concern that Mr. Jackson might be in serious
physical decline?

A. No.

Q. Is there anything in there where someone says that they're worried that Mr. Jackson
might be harming himself?

A. No.

Q. Is there anything in there that gave you pause, other than, perhaps, on nutrition sorry
nourishment, guidance and physical therapy?

A. No. This is Kenny just wanting Michael to be on the absolute top of his game for the
shows.

Q. And did you disagree that with Mr. Ortega that Mr. Jackson should be on top of his
game for the shows?

A. No. I think that was everybody's goal.

Q. Did you have any problem with the idea that Mr. Ortega thought that Mr. Jackson
should have nourishment and guidance?

A. No.

Q. Did you have any problem with the idea that Mr. Jackson might want physical
therapy, massage?

A. No. I mean, great.

Q. Are those odd requests for one to make for an artist who is about to go on tour?

A. I don't think so.

Q. Did everything did anything give you pause and concern at this point when you heard
this from Mr. Ortega?

A. No.

Q. Now, at this point in time, do you have any awareness as to whether Mr. Jackson was
seeing a. Trainer?

A. He was he was seeing Lou Ferrigno .

Q. And who is Lou Ferrigno ?

A. He played "the Incredible Hulk," I think.

Q. Do you mean the man who played "the Incredible Hulk" on t.v.?

A. Yes.

Q. And that would be Lou Ferrigno ?

A. Yes.

Q. The so is your understanding that Mr. Jackson had engaged the services of Lou
Ferrigno ?


Mr. Panish: objection; leading and suggestive, and no
Foundation.

Judge: no foundation unless you can establish

Mr. Putnam: OK. I asked you a question of whether or not you had any
understanding as to whether Mr. Jackson was seeing a trainer. Did you have an
understanding that Mr. Jackson was seeing a trainer?

A. Yes.

Q. And did you have an understanding as to who that trainer was?

A. Yes.

Q. And who was that trainer?

A. Lou Ferrigno .

Q. And did you have an understanding as to how Mr. Ferrigno was engaged? A. Yes. I
made a deal with him.

Q. And what was that deal?

A. He was to be paid I forget the number, a. Certain amount per session.

Q. Now, right now, we're talking about June 15th, 2009, correct? Do you have an
understanding as to whether Mr. Ferrigno was already working with Mr. Jackson at this
point?

A. I don't know when they started.

Q. So it could have been after this?


Mr. Panish: well, objection; no foundation, speculation. He said he doesn't know.

Judge: overruled.


A. I don't I don't know when they started.

Q. so it could have been after this?

A. It could have been.

Q. Could have been before this?

A. Yes.

Q. You just don't know?

A. Right.

Q. Now, how did it come to be, if you know, that Mr. Ferrigno started working with Mr.
Jackson?

A. Michael asked for him.

Q. Did he ask for Mr. Ferrigno specifically?

A. Yes.

Q. Did you have an understanding as to why Mr. Jackson asked for Mr. Ferrigno
specifically?

A. No, I didn't know; but that's who he wanted.

Q. And when Mr. Jackson asked for Mr. Ferrigno specifically, did you have any problem
with the idea of of Mr. Ferrigno coming on board and helping Mr. Jackson?

A. No. It was fine with me.

Q. Did that give you pause and worry?

A. No.

Q. Did it make you worried that perhaps Mr. Jackson wasn't in good physical health?

A. No. I thought it was just part of his preparation for the shows.

Q. Now, we've seen this e-mail from Mr. Ortega where he talks about nourishment,
guidance, physical therapy, correct?

A. Yes.

Q. As a result of seeing that, do you remember having any concern that perhaps Mr.
Jackson was abusing drugs?

A. No.

Q. Was there anything in this series of exchanges that mentions drugs at all?

A. No.

Q. At this point in time, did anyone say to you that there was a concern that Mr. Jackson
might be using drugs again?

A. No.


Mr. Putnam: now, we've looked at this series before, back and forth. I want to and
we've also looked at a couple of other series where these e-mails go off to other

people. So I want to go into those, if I can. OK. So the first one I want to show is
what has been plaintiffs' trial exhibit 261. May I approach, your honor?

Judge: yes.

Mr. Putnam: I'll give you a second to look at those, if you can.


Q. OK? Have you had a chance to look at it?

A. Yes.

Q. All right. So this is a couple e-mails back and forth. The first on the second page is the
one that we were discussing initially. That's the one from Mr. Ortega to you, and the one
that has a "re" line for "stylist."

A. Right.

Q. And then it goes on to say that the subject he talks about, where he talks about MJ's
doctor and the like. Do you remember that e-mail?

A. Yes.

Q. All right. Now, as a follow up to that and we haven't seen this one before you see
there's it says one that on June 14th, 2009, right above it, Kenny Ortega wrote and you
see he's forwarding that to Travis ? Do you see?

A. Yes.

Q. All right. Now Pam, do you see that right there?

See that right there?

A. Yes.

Q. And if you show the whole thing below, it will show that it's forwarded. Do you see
that?

A. Uh-huh.

Q. All right. And then after that, you'll see a. Response from Travis Payne. Do you see
there's a response that's on June 14th, 2009?

A. Yes, I see it.

Q. A couple of people are listed, including Ms. Sankey, Mr. Ortega, yourself. Who is
James Phares?

A. He was Kenny's assistant.

Q. And you see that same "re" line, "stylist," and you see Mr. Payne's response. He said
"I'd like to also suggest a massage chair in his dressing room."

A. Right.


Mr. Panish: it actually says "message."

Judge: it does say "message."

Mr. Putnam: oh. Thank you. Sorry. "I'd like to see a message chair in his dressing
room."


Q. Do you see that?

A. Yes.

Q. Have you ever heard of a message chair before?

A. No.

Q. As you sit here today, do you know what he might have been talking about?

A. I think he was talking about a massage.

Q. That would be a massage chair? Let me ask you a question about that. In this response,
this is a response to that first e-mail with the "stylist" line, correct?

A. Yes.

Q. Is there anything in here where you see Mr. Phares asking anything about Mr. Jackson
's physical condition?

A. No.

Q. Do you see him talking about drugs in any way?

A. No.

Q. Do you see him expressing any concern at all as a result of Mr. Ortega's e-mail?

A. No.

Q. He said "I'd like to also suggest a massage chair in his dressing room." do you see
that?

A. I do.

Q. Does that seem cold and callous to you, that he'd respond in such a way?

A. No. I think he was being helpful.

Q. And would you have any problem with the idea of Mr. Jackson getting a massage
chair in his dressing room?

A. No.

Q. It doesn't seem like a bad idea to you?

A. No, not at all. It seems like a good idea
To me.

Q. Now let me go to the responsive e-mail above that. All right?

A. Yes.

Q. There's from you, forwarding these messages, to Mr. Hougdahl. Do you see that?

A. Yes.

Q. And then Mr. Hougdahl responding?

A. Right.

Q. Now, do you remember being asked about this e-mail?

A. Yes.

Q. A couple of questions before we do it. The first of all, I notice that it says "john
Bugzee Hougdahl," we've talked about that before, "production manager," and then it
says "Michael Jackson ," slash, "AEG Live."

A. Right.

Q. Do you know why it says that there?

A. He was working for Michael Jackson , and he was an independent contractor to AEG
Live.

Q. And you remember being asked about this e-mail. This is the one where it says he
needs some cheeseburgers with a bunch of Wisconsin cheesehead bowlers and a couple
of brats and beers. Do you see that?

A. Yes.

Q. Again, did you think that was an insensitive response to the earlier e-mail?

A. No. I think Bugzee was just jerk- you know, just joking around.

Q. Well, did you think in any way it was inappropriate to be joking around in response to
Mr. Ortega's e-mail?

A. No, I didn't think it was inappropriate. Also, he says "thanks for the heads-up," which I
think he was referring to the massage chair, which he would probably you know, he
would have gone and got one.

Q. Did you ever have a discussion with Mr. Hougdahl or Mr. Payne afterwards where you
expressed any greater concern about this e-mail than has been expressed in these e-mails?

A. No.

Q. And did you have any subsequent conversation with them where you discussed in any
way a. Concern that perhaps Mr. Jackson was using drugs at this time?

A. No.

Q. And did you have any such concerns at this time?

A. I didn't.

Q. Were you concerned about his Mr. Jackson 's nourishment level at this point?

A. Not particularly.

Q. Now, a little bit more about Mr. Hougdahl, if I May . The what was Mr. Hougdahl's
position on the tour?

A. He was the production manager.

Q. And did you have any sense ever as to Mr. Hougdahl's relationship with Mr. Jackson ?

A. I think they had a really good relationship.

Q. What makes you think that?

A. In the early days of the at center staging, Michael would be there every day, and he
and Bugzee spent a lot of time talking.

Q. Did Mr. Hougdahl ever mock Mr. Jackson to you?

A. No.

Q. Did he ever say anything to you that made you believe that he didn't respect Mr.
Jackson?

A. No. I think he had great respect for him.

Q. Did you have any belief that Mr. Hougdahl somehow didn't care about Mr. Jackson's
wellbeing?

A. Oh, I think he cared.

Q. Now, there's a later e-mail that you've been asked a lot of questions about where Mr.
Hougdahl talks about Mr. Jackson 's health deteriorating. Do you remember being asked
about that?

A. Yes.

Q. This is an earlier e-mail that we're looking at here, which is June 15th, 2009, correct?

A. Right.

Q. Does Mr. Hougdahl tell you in this e-mail in any way that Mr. Jackson's health is
deteriorating?

A. No.

Q. In fact, in any of the e-mails that you've just seen, did any of them say that Mr.
Jackson's health was deteriorating?

A. No.

Q. Did any of them tell you that Mr. Jackson had been in great shape and now was in
terrible shape?

A. No.

Q. Was there anything about these e-mails that would have made you believe that to be
true?

A. No, there's nothing.

Q. When you got this e-mail from Mr. Hougdahl do you remember getting this e-mail
from Mr. Houghdahl?

A. No.

Q. OK. Are you denying that you received it?

A. No.

Q. Are you denying that you forwarded it on to Mr. Hougdahl?

A. No.

Q. So right now, this date would be June 15th, 2009, correct?

A. Yes.

Q. And as of that point, Mr. Jackson would pass ten days later, correct?

A. Yes.

Q. At this point in time, middle of June 2009, as you sit here today, can you recall having
any concern whatsoever at this point in time about Mr. Jackson's health?

A. No.

Q. Do you remember having any concern at this point in time that Mr. Jackson might be
using drugs again?

A. No.

Q. Can you remember having any concern at this point in time that about Mr. Jackson 's
doctor, Dr. Conrad Murray?

A. No, I didn't have any concerns about him.

Q. Had anyone else raised any concerns with you about Dr. Conrad Murray at this time?

A. No.

Q. Had anyone else raised any concerns with you at this time that Mr. Jackson might be
using painkillers again?
A. No.

Q. And what about in terms of his health? Did anybody raise any concerns with you,
other than what we see here about nourishment and being thin, as of June 15th, 2009?

A. No.

Q. On June 15th, 2009, you were still at the Forum , correct?

A. Yes.

Q. And you can see from that it's a Monday?

A. Right.

Q. Does that make sense to you?

A. Yes.

Q. So as of Monday, June 15th, 2009, you did not have these concerns; ten days later, Mr.
Jackson would pass, correct?

A. Yes.

Q. Let's talk about those ten days. We've talked a little bit about June 19th, 2009. Can you
remember, as we sit here today,
Then having talked with Mr. Panish and answered questions for Mr. Panish about June
19th, 2009?

A. Yes.

Q. And as you sit here today, what can you recall about those conversations? What
happened on June 19th, 2009?

A. I was out of town, headed for a family wedding. But June 19th, that's the that's the day
that Michael was had chills at the rehearsal, and was apparently was sick.

Q. So let's talk about that for a minute. So June 15th is a Monday, right?

A. Yes.

Q. So then the 19th would be that Friday?

A. Yes.

Q. June 19th is a Friday. And during that week, the 15th, 16th, 17th, 18th, 19th, during
that week, as you sit here today, can you recall whether your one meeting with Dr.
Conrad Murray occurred within that five days?

A. I'm not sure when

Q. And by the 19th, you were on your way to New Jersey for a wedding?

A. Pennsylvania, yeah.


Q. Now, while you're looking at that, I'll just say that this, again, is a series of e-mails
back and forth, starting on June 19th, 2009, and proceeding through June 20th, 2009.
There are various people on it, including Bugzee, who is John Hougdahl,
Yourself, Mr. Phillips.

A. Yes.

Q. And Mr. Leiweke on the last one. The do you remember being asked questions about
this series of e-mails?

A. Yes.

Q. I'm going to ask you some different ones, if I can. Let's start with the first e-mail in the
chain. That is on Friday, June 19th. This would be around 10:14 in the evening, and it's
from Mr. Hougdahl to Paul and Randy. And it says "I'm not being a drama queen here.
Kenny asked me to notify you both." now, first of all, you were asked whether Mr.
Hougdahl has a propensity to be a drama green. Do you remember being asked that?

A. Yes.

Q. Do you remember your answer?

A. I don't think he is.

Q. OK. What about Mr. Phillips? Can he be a. Drama queen at times?

A. Yes.

Q. OK. What about Mr. Ortega?

A. You know yeah, sometimes.

Q. Do you have an understanding as to why Mr. Hougdahl said here "I'm not being a
drama queen"?

A. No, I don't know why he said that.

Q. OK. He goes on to say that "Kenny asked me to notify you both." do you have any
understanding as to why Mr. Ortega didn't send this e-mail himself?

A. I don't know why.

Q. OK. It goes on to say that "MJ Was sent home without stepping foot onstage. He was
a. Basket case, and Kenny was concerned he would embarrass himself onstage or, worse
yet, get hurt. The company is rehearsing right now, but the doubt is pervasive. Time to
circle the wagons." do you see that?

A. Yes.

Q. Now, did you have an understanding strike that. I want to make sure I understood
your answer to this previously. Do you remember getting this e-mail?

A. No.

Q. Do you remember any of these e-mails, seeing them at the time?

A. No.

Q. As you sit here today, are you saying you didn't receive them?

A. No, I'm not saying that.

Q. And the one at the end where you respond, are you denying that you sent that
response?

A. No.

Q. OK. Going through it, let me ask you this. I think I know the answer to what I'm going
to ask you. Were you at this rehearsal?

A. No. I was, by then, probably in Pennsylvania.

Q. Already there, actually arrived?

A. Yes.

Q. All right. And did you have an understanding as to whether Mr. Phillips was at that
rehearsal?

A. I don't know.

Q. Do you have an understanding, as we sit here today, whether anybody from AEG Live
was at that rehearsal?

A. I don't know who was there.

Q. Now, in response to that, you then see Mr. Phillips responding right above. It says
"Bugzee, I know because I just got Kenny's message on my voicemail." do you see that?

A. Yes.

Q. "what did he do when he got there, and what happened between him and KO.? I have
a meeting with MJ Tomorrow morning. Randy." do you see that?

A. Yes.

Q. Now, we then go on to the next e-mail, because I want you to have the whole chain,
and it says this is from Mr. Hougdahl to Mr. Phillips, c.c.'ing you. Do you see that?

A. Yes.

Q. And it says "MJ Came out and watched all the pyro demonstration and endorsed all
the effects, then went into his room and asked Kenny, quote, you aren't going to kill the
artist, are you, end quote. We assumed this was a reference to pyro, but Kenny said he
was shaking and couldn't hold his knife and fork. "Kenny had to cut his food for him
before he could eat, and then he had to use his fingers. I don't know how much
embellishment there is to this, but Kenny said repeatedly that MJ Was in no shape to go
onstage." do you see that?

A. Yes.


Q. Reading this, did you have an understanding as to whether Mr. Hougdahl saw this
himself, or whether he was being told this by Mr. Ortega?

A. I think he must have been told this.

Q. And why do you say that?

A. Because I don't think he would have been there when Kenny cut his food, or any of
that part of it.

Q. Do you see where it says there "but Kenny said repeatedly that MJ Was in no shape to
go onstage"?

A. Right.


Q. Do you have any understanding as to who was with Mr. Ortega and who was with Mr.
Jackson when this occurred?

A. No. I wasn't there, I don't know.

Q. Did anyone ever tell you who was present when this happened?

A. No.

Q. Who would be the best person to ask what happened as is being referenced here, in
your opinion?

A. Kenny.

Q. Mr. Ortega?

A. Yeah.

Q. Because he was actually present, correct?

A. He was there, yeah.

Q. So when you were asked about this you weren't being asked about this because you
were there, were you?

A. I wasn't there.


Q. Let's go on above. You see this is from Mr. Phillips, and it says "Tim and I are going to
see him tomorrow. However, I'm not sure what the problem is. Chemical or
physiological?" do you remember do you see that?

A. Yes.

Q. Do you remember being asked about that?

A. Yes.

Q. And then it goes on to say I'm sorry. Then the next one is from you to Mr. Phillips,
where you're c.c.'ing Bugzee, Mr. Hougdahl, and it looks like you're c.c.'ing yourself. Do
you have an understanding as to why you did that?

A. I think I was c.c.'d below, and it might have just carried forward.


Q. OK.

A. I was on the I was on a

Q. Well, I was going to ask you about that. It says "via u.s.a. Mobile."

A. Right.

Q. So you were on your mobile device?
A. Yes.

Q. And it says "take the doctor with you. Why wasn't he here last night?" do you see that?

A. Yes.

Q. Now, do you recall why you're directing them to take the doctor with them?

A. Well, if the meeting was going to be about what happened that night with Michael,
then the doctor should be there.

Q. When you wrote this, did you have any understanding that you could direct that the
doctor be there?

A. No; we could certainly ask him to be there.

Q. And when you say "why wasn't he there last night?" why would the doctor have been
there?

A. If his patient is having a problem, if he's sick, and that's his only patient, it seems like
he should have been there.

Q. At that point in time, did you have any understanding as to whether Dr. Conrad
Murray ever went to rehearsals with Mr. Jackson ?

A. No, he didn't.

Q. So when you were asking this, you were asking it in response to the fact that Mr.
Jackson was sick that evening?

A. Yes.

Q. Now, then a response to this, there's something from Mr. Phillips saying "he is not a.
Psychiatrist, so I am not sure how effective he can be at this point. Obviously, getting him
there is not the issue. It is much deeper." and you were asked a series of questions last
week as to who you thought Mr. Phillips meant when he said this, and you gave a couple
of different answers. Did you ever discuss with Mr. Phillips what he meant by this?

A. No.

Q. So when you were giving those answers, were you just speculating as to what it might
have meant?

A. I don't recall talking to Randy, so if I it must have been speculation.

Q. OK. But as you didn't write this e-mail, correct?

A. No; Randy did.

Q. OK. So you were in Pennsylvania at a. Wedding when this was taking place, correct?

A. Right.

Q. Friday is the 19th, the 20th is Saturday?

A. Yes.

Q. What day of the week was the wedding, if you recall?

A. Saturday.

Q. And did you come to have an understanding as to whether or not there was, in fact, a
meeting with Michael Jackson and his doctor, Dr. Conrad Murray?

A. Yeah, I believe there was.

Q. And did you come to have an understanding as to who was at that meeting?


Mr. Panish: I'm going to object to all these questions. Any foundation he would have
would be based on hearsay since he was not present at this meeting.

Mr. Putnam: and the door was opened for them,

Your honor, since a number of questions were already asked by Mr. Panish on the
same.

Mr. Panish: he has no foundation.

Judge: there were questions, but

Mr. Panish: he has no foundation to make these statements.


Sidebar



Q. At the time that you at the time of these e-mails, did you respond in some way where
you indicated that you'd follow up?

A. I don't recall.

Q. Did you not respond at that time?

A. I don't think I did.

Q. OK. And why didn't you respond at that time?

A. I was still out of town. It seemed to me he May have been sick, but I didn't see it as
being a. a huge problem. I talked to Randy really briefly, and he said a meeting with


Mr. Panish: objection; that's asking for hearsay.

Judge: yes, it is hearsay. Sustained.

Mr. Panish: and he's answered the question.


Q. did you have any understanding that anybody else was dealing with this at the time?

A. Yes; Randy was.

Q. And why was that important to you? Was it important to you?

A. Yes. I mean, if obviously, he had a problem the night before, so it needed to be dealt
with.

Q. And do you have an understanding that someone from AEG Live was dealing with
this?

A. Yes.

Q. And did you have an understanding as to what whether anybody who was present to
have actually seen him the night before was also going to be dealing with this? Let me
ask you more specifically. Did you have an understanding that Mr. Hougdahl was going
to be dealing with this?

A. No, I didn't think he would be.

Q. What about Mr. Ortega? Did you think Mr. Ortega was dealing with this?

A. He may have been.

Q. Now, as we noted a moment ago, there are various chains in this series, things that go
to different places, so I'm going to show you a different one that you were shown last
week. Could I please see exhibit 307. Now, while you're looking at it, I will indicate that
this is a four-page document, a. Series of e-mails amongst different people. It begins with
the same "drama queen" e-mail, and then proceeds. And ultimately, it's sent to a couple of
other people, and that's where we're going to pick up.do you remember seeing this
before?

A. Yes.

Q. And do you remember being asked a series of questions about it last week?

A. Yes.

Q. I'm going to ask you a couple of different ones. Let's look on the first page. Do you
see that this was an e-mail it goes into the second page. It's from Randy Phillips, sent to
Kenny Ortega. And this is on Saturday, June 20th. So that would be the day after that
would be the Saturday when the wedding actually took place, correct?

A. Right.

Q. And my mistake. It's on page 2, not page 1. I apologize.
So do you see that? And towards the end of that paragraph. I want to show you
something, if I can. It begins three lines up on that page, "there were four security
guards." do you see that?

A. Yes.

Q. I want to ask you some questions about this. First is that first statement, "there were
four security guards outside his door, but no one offering him a cup of hot tea." do you
see that?

A. Yes.

Q. Now, we're at the Forum at this point. Do you remember talking about where Mr.
Jackson's dressing room was?

A. Yes.

Q. In your experience while at the Forum, did Mr. Jackson generally come with security
guards?

A. Yes.

Q. And when he was in his dressing room, would those security guards generally wait
outside the doors?

A. Yes.

Q. Did you have any understanding as to why that was?

A. No. That was up to the artist.

Q. Did you find it odd that Mr. Jackson had his security guards waiting outside of his
dressing room door?

A. No.

Q. Why not?

A. I don't think he would have felt he needed security inside the dressing room itself.

Q. OK. Did that make you suspicious of what might be going on in the dressing room?

A. No.

Q. Did you did it make you suspicious that Mr. Jackson might be using drugs again?

A. No.

Q. It goes on to say "finally, it is important for everyone to know I believe that he really
wants this." now, that's Mr. Ortega responding on the 20th, correct?

A. Yes.

Q. Did you also have an understanding that Mr. Jackson really wanted this?

A. I believed he did right from the start.

Q. And why is that?

A. Just the way he was; the way he acted; the way he, you know, took it seriously.

Q. Did you ever have an understanding that Mr. Jackson didn't want to go on tour?

A. No. I believe he did.

Q. Did that understanding change at any time from January 2009 until the time of his
passing on June 25th, 2009?

A. Not for me, it didn't.

Q. It goes on to say "it would shatter him, break his heart, if we pulled the plug." do you
see that?

A. No, I don't. I'm lost.

Q. That's all right. At the bottom of that page, do you see where it says "I believe that he
really wants this"?

A. Oh, yeah. OK.

Q. The next line after that, do you see where it says "it would shatter him, break his heart,
if we pulled the plug"?

A. Yes.

Q. Do you remember ever having a discussion with anyone about the possibility of
pulling the plug on the tour?

A. No.

Q. Do you have any understanding as to why Mr. Ortega would say that use the term
"pull the plug" at this point?

A. I don't know why he would use that term, no.

Q. It goes on to say "he's terribly frightened it's all going to go away," then goes on to say
"he asked me repeatedly tonight if I was going to leave him. He was practically begging
for my confidence. It broke my heart. He was like a little boy. There may be a chance he
can rise to the occasion if we get him the help he needs." do you see that?

A. Yes.

Q. Now, did you have an understanding at this time as to what kind of help Mr. Ortega
was talking about?

A. No.

Q. At this point in time, did anyone say to you at the wedding that they thought that Mr.
Jackson needed to go to rehab?

A. No.

Q. Did anyone say to you at this time that Mr. Jackson needed an addiction specialist?

A. No.

Q. Did anyone tell you at this point that anybody had a concern about his doctor, Dr.
Conrad Murray?

A. No.

Q. All right. At the beginning of that paragraph, Mr. Ortega says "I will do whatever I can
to be of help with this situation. If you need me to come to the house, just give me a call
in the morning." do you see that?

A. Yes.

Q. And then I want to go up two lines two e-mails to one and it's on the first page at the
bottom. This is Saturday, June 20th, to Mr. Phillips, from Mr. Ortega.

A. Right.

Q. It says "I'm at home awaiting your call or instructions." do you see that?

A. Yes.

Q. And did you ever come to have an understanding as to whether or not Mr. Ortega was
involved in the ultimate meetings that day?

A. I didn't know.

Q. You don't know?

A. No.

Q. Now, when you were being asked about this series of e-mails, and you see it goes off
in different chains when you were being asked about this last week, you were asked
whether there was a sense that Mr. Jackson 's health was in decline.
Do you remember those words being used, that it was "in decline"?

A. I don't I don't remember it specifically.

Q. You don't remember being asked about "in decline"?

A. I don't remember specifically that, no.

Q. Well, let me ask you this question. Do you remember there being any conversations at
this point in time, June 19th through June 20th, that you were involved in, that discussed
Mr. Jackson 's health being in decline?

A. No.

Q. And as we sit here strike that. On June 20th, 2009, when you were at this wedding,
did you have a belief that Mr. Jackson 's health might be in decline at this point?

A. No, no.


Q. In the e-mail right above that you were asked about this e-mail; and this is the one
from Mr. Phillips to Mr. Ortega on Saturday, June 20th. And it says "Kenny, it is critical
that neither you, me or anyone around this show become amateur psychiatrists or
physicians. I had a lengthy conversation with Dr. Murray, who I am gaining immense
respect for as I get to deal with him more. "he said that Michael is not only physically
equipped to perform, and to discourage him to will hasten his decline instead of stopping
it." let me see right there. So this says that Mr. Jackson is physically equipped to
perform. Do you see that?

A. Yes.

Q. And that's the assessment of his doctor, is it not?

A. Right.

Q. Did you have any reason at this time to not believe Dr. Conrad Murray?

A. No, no reason.

Q. What was your understanding of Dr. Conrad Murray's role in Mr. Jackson's life at this
time?

A. He was his doctor.

Q. And then it goes on to say that "discouraging him to will hasten his decline instead of
stopping it."
Do you see that?

A. Yes.

Q. So there is a discussion of decline here; but there's a sense that discouraging him
would hasten the decline, not stop it?

A. That's what it says.

Q. It then goes on to say that "Dr. Murray also reiterated that he is mentally able to, and
was that he is mentally able to," and then it goes on to say "and was speaking to me from
the house, where he had spent the morning with MJ" do you see that?


A. Yes.

Q. Did anyone ever tell you that they believed Mr. Jackson wasn't mentally able to
perform the shows?

A. No.

Q. It then goes on to say, at the very end there let me make sure I get this. There it is. "it
is critical that we surround mike with love and support and listen to how he wants to get
ready for July 13th." do you see that?

A. Yes.

Q. Did you have an understanding that in some way, you were going to come to
understand what Mr. Jackson wanted to do to get ready for July 13th?

A. Yes.

Q. All right. And it goes on to say "you cannot imagine the harm and ramifications of
stopping the show now. It would far outweigh calling this game in the seventh inning. I'm
not just talking about AEG.'s interest here, but the myriad of stuff and lawsuits swirling
around MJ That I crisis manage every day, and also his well-being." do you see that?

A. Yes.

Q. From looking at this, do you have any understanding as to whether Mr. Phillips was
concerned with Mr. Jackson's wellbeing?

A. I think he was.

Q. Was there ever a time that you thought that Mr. Phillips wasn't concerned with Mr.
Jackson's wellbeing?

A. No.

Q. Was there ever a time when you weren't were you concerned with Mr. Jackson's
wellbeing?

A. Always.

Q. And was there ever a time when you weren't?


A. No.



Mr. Putnam: all right. Thank you, your honor.