JACKSON V AEGLive May 31

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2013 Transcripts
PLEASE HELP US TO CONTINUE THIS EFFORT FOR MICHAE L! <<CLICK
Paul Gongaware
(Co-CEO of AEG Live Concerts West, This Is It Producer)
Plaintiffs Adverse Witness.



Continued cross-examination By Mr. Putnam:

Q. Good morning, Mr. Gongaware.

A. Good morning.

Q. We're going to continue on where we were yesterday. The last thing that we listened to
yesterday was the announcement that Mr. Jackson made he was going to rehab. Do you
remember that?

A. Yes.

Q. Did you ever have an understanding why Mr. Jackson at the time was taking painkillers?

A. Yes, I did.

Q. And what was that understanding?

Mr. Panish: I'll object, it's based on hearsay.

Mr. Putnam: your honor, I'm asking his understanding. It's classic non-hearsay. I'm not
asking him where it's from, how he heard it. Classic non-hearsay, what his understanding
was of why Mr. Jackson was on pain medication.

Mr. Panish: his only basis is what the doctor told him, which is hearsay.

Mr. Putnam: not necessarily his only basis. It's irrelevant what the basis is. Moreover, it's
classic non-hearsay, your honor, in the sense that it's what his understanding was, it's not
being offered for the truth of the matter asserted.

Judge: overruled. You may answer.

Q. By Mr. Putnam: so do you understand the question, sir?

A. YeS
Mr. Panish: he can correct himself.

Mr. Putnam: I'll move to strike comments by counsel, your honor.

Judge: I didn't hear it; but OK, it's stricken. Maybe you should repeat the question.

Mr. Panish: that would be great, your honor.

Q. By Mr. Putnam: did you ever come to have an understanding as to why Mr. Jackson was
taking painkillers at the time?

A. On the "Dangerous" tour? Before the third leg of the "Dangerous" tour started, he had a scalp
surgery, and it hit A. Nerve or something and was very painful for him, so he was being treated
for that pain.

Q. Now, you say "before the third leg." Were you on all three legs?
A. Of "Dangerous," yes.

Q. You were. OK. And so this is between the second and the third leg, you understood that he
had a surgery, and it was painful, and he was taking painkillers?

A. Yes.

Q. Did you have an understanding as to why he had scalp surgery?

A. Yeah, I think I kind of know why.

Q. Well, what do you know?
A. When he did the Pepsi commercial, and he his his hair got burned on the top, they decided
to just to do like a scalp reduction so that he wouldn't have to put a hair plug in there, it would
be more natural, and that was the reason for the surgery.
Q. And during the tour itself, did you understand that Mr. Jackson was taking painkillers?
A. I did on one other occasion, yes.
Q. And did you have an understanding during the tour that those painkillers were a problem for
Mr. Jackson, that he had an addiction during the tour?
A. No, I didn't know there was an addiction.
Q. OK. And now, Dr. Finkelstein, he was on the tour as the tour doctor, correct?
A. Yes.
Q. If Dr. Finkelstein were to testify that he had told you during the tour that he believed Mr.
Jackson had a problem with painkillers, would that be consistent with your memory?
A. No.
Q. In either event, you learned by November 1993 that Mr. Jackson had a problem with
painkillers, correct?
A. Yes, after Mexico City, yes.
Q. So the "Dangerous" tour was 1992 to 1993, Correct?
A. Yes.
Q. When the tour ended, did you continue to work in the music business?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. What did you do next?
A. I did a rod Stewart tour in North America.
Q. And what were you doing during that tour, sir?
A. I was a I guess I was a promoter, worked for the promoter, who was Marcel Avram.
Q. And do you recall as you sit here today approximately how long that tour lasted?
A. A few months.
Q. And did a time come where you worked with Mr. Jackson again?
A. On "History ," yes.
Q. So your next working with Mr. Jackson was on the "History " tour?
A. Yes.
Q. And do you remember the years of the"History " tour?
A. It was like '96, '97, somewhere in there.

Q. So between '93 and '96, you worked on the rod Stewart tour. Did you do anything else in the
music business during that time, that you can remember?
A. I can't remember. Skied a lot.
Q. All right. So you started working on the "Dangerous" tour. Did you start working at the very
beginning of the tour, 1996?
A. On "History ."
Q. Thank you. I apologize. On the "History " tour. Did you start working immediately on the
"History " tour in 1996?
A. I I started just as it was was beginning, yes.
Q. And how did it come to be that you worked on the "History " tour?
A. Well, I actually had a couple of other tours lined up; and I wasn't going to do "History ," but
marcel Avram, who I'd worked for in the past, called me from the hospital in London and said
there was something wrong with his eye, he was in the hospital, and he needed me to help him.
And I said, "well, I've got these other things that I've got lined up." and he said, "no. You've got
to help me, at least until the other things come up." so I said OK.
Q. And what kind of help were you providing him on "History " tour?
A. I promoted some a few of the shows.
Q. And what shows did you promote, if you can recall?
A. I did Tunisia, which was like a major event in that country because they had never really seen
shows like that, so that was like putting everything together from scratch in a country that had
never seen this stuff. Then he had me do the shows in Hawaii, the stadium.
Q. Now, you said that at first you told Mr. Avram is that how you say his name, Avram?
A. Avram.
Q. that you were not interested in going on the tour, but he convinced you to do so. Was any part
of that because you were concerned that Mr. Jackson might still have a problem with painkillers?

Mr. Panish: objection; leading and suggestive of the answer.
Judge: sustained.
Mr. Panish: like every question.
Q. By Mr. Putnam: did you have a concern that Mr. Jackson had A. Problem with painkillers
still?
A. Not specifically, no.
Q. Did you generally have that concern?
A. Well, I would have I would have been concerned, yes, if he did.
Q. And did you see anything that led you to believe that he did?
A. No. On that first leg, when I was with marcel, I didn't really see Michael much at all.
Q. So the first leg of the tour, you didn't see much of Mr. Jackson. And why was that?
A. I was working on specific shows and, you know, they would take a month or two, so I only
saw him when he came through, really.
Q. So let's use Tunisia as an example. When you were setting up the Tunisia show, where were
you setting that up?
A. In Tunisia.
Q. And you said you'd be there for about A. Month. Were you in Tunisia for about a month?

A. Yes.
Q. And you said you'd see Mr. Jackson when he came through. What did that mean?
A. Just saw him perform.
Q. And when you'd set up something like the Tunisia tour leg of or, I guess, show, would you
stay in Tunisia, actually see the show performed?
A. Yes.
Q. And you said you also set up a Hawaii show; is that right?
A. Yes.
Q. And when you were setting up the Hawaii show, would you then go to Hawaii and set that
show up?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you like setting up the Hawaii show?
A. Yes, I did. In between, I had to do a few other things. He had me go to Singapore, I can't
remember what for, and he had me to go Australia for some meetings just to try to control costs
on the tour, because they were just you know, they were out of sight.

Q. When you say "him," who do you mean by that?
A. Marcel, Mr. Avram.
Q. And did a time come where your job on the "History " tour changed?
A. Yes. After the after the shows ended in Hawaii, Michael had lost, on that first leg, about $26
million, and he was in debt to like the production companies, like sound and lighting and video
and so forth. He was in debt to them about 11 million, and he didn't have the money to pay them.
So at that point, he switched managers to Tarak ben Ammar, who started putting things back
together again.
Q. A couple of things in that. First, so as a result of Mr. Ben Ammar changing things, did your
job change?
A. Yes. He told me to get the tour straightened out and he would take care of the rest of it.

Q. So a couple of things in that. So Tarak ben Ammar, he was Mr. Jackson's manager then?
A. Yes.
Q. And previously you had told us that it had been Jim Maury and Sandy Gallin; is that correct?
A. I think on "History ," it was just Jim Maury. I'm not sure Sandy Gallin was involved in that.
Q. And was Mr. Maury involved in this tour, or just Mr. Ben Ammar?
A. The second leg, it was just Mr. Ben Ammar.
Q. So Mr. Maury was the first leg?
A. I think he was, yes.
Q. And he's Mr. Jackson's manager?
A. Yes.
Q. And what was Mr. Avram on that on the first leg of the tour?
A. He was the tour promoter.
Q. And did he remain as the promoter on the second leg of the tour?
A. No.
Q. And did who took over the role of promoter on the second half of the tour, if you know?

A. There were individual promoters in different in the different cities and countries. Marcel's
company promoted all the stuff in Germany, and then different promoters in the rest of the
territories.
Q. And you described for us what your job was on the first half of the tour. Could you describe
for us what your job was like on the second half of the tour?
A. Yeah. I had to go in and cut a lot of expenses, and didn't we tried to give Michael essentially
the same show he had, but there was just so much waste and so much excess that we were able to
cut a lot of that out. And that was really my primary function, is to run the tour and get it into
shape.
Q. Did you have a title on the first half of the tour?
A. I don't know. I don't think so.
Q. Did you have a title on the second half of the tour?
A. "tour executive."
Q. Now, who were you working for on the first half of the tour?
A. Marcel.
Q. Mr. Avram?
A. Yes.
Q. Who were you working for on the second half of the tour?
A. That was for Michael.
Q. When you say "Michael," do you mean Mr. Jackson?
A. Yes.
Q. So you indicated that the finances on the first half of the tour were not good, and you were
brought in to help with that on the second half. Did you help with that?
A. Yeah, I think so. We had we had about another about Another 40 shows or so in that second
half, and we made about a net of about $14 million. 11 of that went to pay off the vendors that
he still owed, and he made, you know, maybe a couple of million dollars, but I I suspect that
went to commissions, so I think that, you know, we got the tour to break even.

Q. You'd indicated you had little contact with Mr. Jackson the first half. Did that change in the
second half?
A. Yeah, I worked with him a lot in the second half.
Q. And what do you mean by that?
A. Well, just going through the elements of the tour, and what we could change and how we were
going to change them, and coordinating just efforts with him directly.
Q. You talked about on the previous tour, on the "Dangerous" tour; there was a group a, b, c and
d in terms of travel.
A. Yes.
Q. Was that true on this tour?
A. We didn't have a documentary crew; so it was just a, b, c.
Q. And on the did you travel with on the first part of the tour, did you travel with a, b or c?
A. I didn't travel with the party at all. I was independent.
Q. Is that because you'd go in advance?

A. Yeah.
Q. And then what about on the second half of the tour, did you travel with a, b or c?
A. The a party was really small, so I I stayed with b.
Q. You didn't travel with Mr. Jackson?
A. Not normally, no.
Q. Now, in this second half of the tour, when you were seeing him more frequently, did you see
did there ever come a time when you had any concerns that Mr. Jackson had an ongoing problem
with painkillers?
A. No, none at all.
Q. Were there did anyone tell you that there was a problem with painkillers at that time?
A. No.

Q. Did you see anything that made you think that there might be?
A. No, nothing.
Q. And if I understand correctly, you were seeing Mr. Jackson on the second half of the tour?
A. Yes.
Q. And you were dealing with him personally?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, has there ever come a time where you've come to have an understanding that Mr.
Jackson had any problem with painkillers at any time during the "History" tour?
A. No.
Q. Did you ever have an understanding as to whether Mr. Jackson had a I guess I should break it
up into two parts of the tour. In the first half of the tour, did you ever come to have an
understanding as to whether Mr. Jackson ever had a doctor traveling with him?
A. I don't think he did, but I didn't I don't know for sure.
Q. Did you ever have come to have an understanding as to whether Mr. Jackson had a doctor
treating him in any of the locations during the first half of the tour?
A. No.
Q. During the second half of the tour, did you ever come to have an understanding as to whether
Mr. Jackson had a doctor traveling with him?
A. He didn't.
Q. And would you know if he did?
A. Yes.
Q. And during the second half of the tour, did you ever come to have an understanding as to
whether Mr. Jackson saw any doctors on locations during the second half?
A. Not that I know of.
Q. Was there a tour doctor on that tour?
A. No.
Q. No personal doctor, no tour doctor, to your knowledge?
A. None.
Q. Did you see Mr. Jackson perform on the "History" tour?
A. Yes.
Q. How were his performances, in your opinion?

A. Great.
Q. You say that with some oomph. Why is that?
A. He was sensational.
Q. Did he seem healthy to you?
A. Yes.
Q. To your knowledge as you sit here today, did Mr. Jackson miss any shows during the
"History" tour?
A. He only missed one, and that was when Princess Diana passed away. He went to bed at night
he knew about the accident, went to bed, the last thing he heard was she was going to be OK, and
woke up in the morning, and she'd passed away, and it affected him deeply.
Q. So as you sit here today, you can only recall him missing one during the tour, correct?
A. That's the only one I know of, yeah.
Q. Now, I'm not sure I asked you this. Maybe I didn't. Did Mr. Jackson miss any shows that you
can recall during the "Dangerous" tour?
A. Yes.
Q. Did he miss them with any frequency?
A. Yeah. He missed I don't know how many he missed, but there were yeah, he missed shows.
Q. Back on "Dangerous," he missed some shows, and on this one, the later tour that you were on
with him, the "History" tour, you can only remember him missing one?
A. That's right
Q. If you can recall, what was Mr. Jackson's schedule like during the "History" tour? Was it were
there a lot of shows?
A. Well, I mean, the his dancing was probably 10 to 12 shows a month.
Q. And we talked about Tunisia, we talked about Hawaii. Do you remember the other places
where Mr. Jackson performed during the "History" tour?
A. Europe, Asia, South America. The only shows in the United States were the ones in Hawaii.
Oh, on "Dangerous," it wasn't even then. That was History.
Q. So during the "History" tour, it was Hawaii, Tunisia, and around the world?
A. Yeah, "History" was yes. It was like an around-the-world tour, but that was the one where
only the only North American shows were in Hawaii.
Q. OK. Now, Mr. Jackson had left the earlier tour, the "Dangerous" tour, and announced that he
was going into rehab. You were then on the "Dangerous" tour excuse me the "History " tour for
its entirety. Can you recall ever having a concern during the Dangerous I keep doing that during
the "History " tour that Mr. Jackson might still be using painkillers?
A. No indication at all, no. I didn't think he was.
Q. Were you on the lookout for it in any way?
A. Yeah, we'd certainly notice if it if it was that if that was the case.
Q. And as you sit here today, you do not recall noticing anything?
A. No.
Q. Did in your as you sit here today, do you recall did it did the "History " tour go to
completion? Did it end when it was supposed to?
A. History did.
Q. And as you sit here today, were there any notable incidences during the "History" tour that
you can recall?

A. I don't know what you mean by "notable instances."

Q. Well, you talked about some things that stood out about the prior tour. You talked about the
idea the king was saying he couldn't leave the country when you were in Bangkok, you talked
about the idea that the tour ended abruptly. And this one sounds like it was a lot smoother, so I'm
wondering if there was anything any bumps in the road along the way that you can recall.
A. Well, there was one time when we were in Scandinavia, and the our security I remember our
security guy insisting to the promoter, the local promoter, that we have someone onstage
overnight. And they said, "well, wait. The whole thing is fenced, you're in a fairgrounds,"
whatever it was, "and there's no need to have somebody onstage." but I remember him insisting.
And that night, a guy escaped from a mental facility 100 miles away, somehow got to the stage,
on the stage, and fire bombed it.
Q. In Scandinavia?
A. Yeah.
Q. That would be notable.
A. And, luckily, we had a guy that put the fire out quickly and, you know that was I don't know.
That's an incident.
Q. Yes, that is definitely an incident. Anything else you can recall from that tour as we sit here
today that would be notable to you?
A. It was pretty smooth.
Q. OK. The tour ends in 1997?
A. Yeah.
Q. Did you continue to work with Mr. Jackson after the end of the "History" tour?
A. No.
Q. Did you have any contact with Mr. Jackson from the end of the tour for the next several
years?
A. He called me right after the tour and wanted me to work for him. He wanted me to handle his
business affairs.
Q. What do you mean?
A. Just run his companies and handle handle the business of those companies.
Q. The tour ends in 1997. How long after the end of the tour did this call take place?
A. It was like right after.
Q. And who called you?
A. Michael did.
Q. Michael himself?
A. Yeah.
Q. And was Mr. Ben Ammar still with Mr. Jackson?
A. Yeah, I believe he was at that time.
Q. And what did Mr. Jackson say to you, if you can recall?
A. Just that, he'd like me to you know, to handle his business affairs, work in his companies.
Q. Did you have an understanding as to why he was asking you to do this?
A. Yeah. I mean, he liked he liked my work, he liked what I did. Mr. Ben Ammar was his
manager. He wasn't suggesting I manage him; he just wanted me to handle business.
Q. Would you have been a business manager had you done this?

A. Had I done that

Q. Had you done this, would you have been A. Business manager?
A. Yes, something like
Q. And did you accept this position?
A. No.
Q. And why is that?
A. I decided to go out on my own again and be a Promoter.
Q. When you say go out on your own, be an independent promoter again?
A. Yes.
Q. Wasn't it tempting to go work for somebody for Michael Jackson?
A. Yeah, it was. I mean yeah, it was tempting; but I I wanted to do things, I wanted to be on my
own.
Q. Did you tell him that right away?
A. Yeah; because at that point, I'd really already started Id lined up what I wanted to do next. I
was going to do the Yanni tour.
Q. And did you have ongoing discussions with Mr. Jackson at the time about coming on as his
business manager?
A. No. We just had that conversation.
Q. Just one conversation?
A. I think so.
Q. So if I understand correctly, you said no?
A. Yes.
Q. You indicated that you'd already lined something up to go work on the Yanni tour. For those
who don't know who Yanni is, who Is Yanni?
A. He's a hes almost like I guess an instrumental artist. He has a small orchestra and he plays I
don't know how to describe his music. It's soft, soothing music.
Q. And how long did you work on that tour, sir?
A. I did the entire tour, it was probably maybe 80 dates.
Q. And after that, did you go into work on another tour?
A. After that, John and I took the money that I made on that tour and we started our new
company, concerts west.
Q. And when you say "john," who do you mean?
A. John Meglen, my partner.
Q. And so that's when you started concerts west. Now, we'd had the concerts west you'd worked
for before in Seattle. This is a different concerts west?
A. Yes.
Q. And in this instance, you said the startup money was the money you had made on the tour?
A. Yes.
Q. And was it just the two of you?
A. Yes.
Q. And around what year was this, if you know?
A. Probably late '90's.
Q. And where was concerts west based?

A. Here in L.A.
Q. In L.A.? And what did concerts west do?
A. Well, we started out with a a tour with Andrea Bocelli, did a Mariah Carey tour, we did the
eagles millennium show at Staples center.
Q. And at this point, was concerts west just your and Mr. Meglen's company?
A. Yes.
Q. And how did it go? Did it work?
A. Yeah, it was OK. Its really hard being a little guy among bigger guys.
Q. And how long were you a little guy amongst bigger guys? How long did concerts west exist?
A. Maybe a couple of years.
Q. And did a time come where concerts west ceased to be all by itself?
A. Yes. We they A.E.G. Acquired the assets of concerts west.
Q. And around when did that occur, if you know?
A. Around 2000.
Q. And did is that how A.E.G. Live was formed?
A. Yes, concerts west became A.E.G. Live.
Q. And who is the C.E.O. Of A.E.G. Live?
A. Randy Phillips.
Q. Now, did A.E.G. Live continue in the same business that concerts west had been doing?
A. Yes, yeah, pretty much. We took on additional things, you know, we started promoting we
did like king tut exhibits, we promoted that, and some other things other than just concerts. But
our primary focus, you know, was always music.
Q. And you stayed on as an executive with the company, correct?
A. Yes.
Q. And that remains true to this day?
A. Yes, that's my title.
Q. Are you working any less days today than you used to?
A. Yeah. Well yes.
Q. What do you mean by that?
A. Well, I want to be working less. I made A. New deal that only required me to work half time
at the start of this year.
Q. Now, did A.E.G. Live grow from this time period, or is it about the same as it was at the time
that you Concerts West came to be A.E.G. Live?
A. No. It grew substantially. We do now we do like 7,000 shows a year.
Q. And if I understand you correctly, it started around the year 2000?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, is it the biggest concert promoter in the world?
A. No.
Q. Do you know where it fits in the lineup of first, second, third?
A. Probably second.
Q. And who is the largest concert promoter in the world?
A. That's Livenation.

Q. Now, plaintiffs' counsel, in his opening, said that A.E.G. Live was desperate to catch
Livenation as the number 1 concert promoter. Is that true?
Mr. Panish: I'm going to object. I didn't use the word "desperate."
Judge: overruled.
Mr. Gongaware: no, that's not true. They're very big, they have issues of their own in terms of
sort of filling what I call filling their pipeline. They have a lot of amphitheaters and that kind of
stuff that they have to constantly put talent in, and our philosophy is just its different. We just,
you know, pick and choose what we do. We don't have to really fill any pipeline; we don't really
have an obligation to fill A.E.G. Buildings. We'd like to, but we don't have an obligation to.
Q. By Mr. Putnam: well, why would Livenation have an obligation to fill their buildings if you
don't have an obligation to fill A.E.G. Live's buildings, or A.E.G.'s buildings?

A. Well, like the amphitheaters, they own the amphitheater and they have to constantly put
programming into them.

Q. Doesn't A.E.G. Own stadiums around the world, as well?
A. I don't know about stadiums, but arenas, and those arenas are open to anybody to rent, any
promoters to put their shows in there, so it's not like if we don't program those buildings, they
don't get shows.
Q. And is that somehow different for amphitheaters?
A. Yeah. The only people that program their amphitheaters at Livenation is Livenation.
Q. But wouldn't you like to be number 1?
A. No.
Q. Well, why not?
A. It's so much bigger, and it would just become so complex, and just I'm happy being, you
know, a good number 2.
Q. And so we were talking about A.E.G. Live since 2000 or the 2000's. And what was the next
time that you worked with Mr. Jackson?
A. On "This Is It."
Q. When was the next time you met Mr. Jackson?
A. It was in Las Vegas. It was around I think it was around 2007. Peter Lopez, who was
Michael's attorney, called my partner, John Meglen, and said, "do you want to come out and
meet with Michael Jackson?"
Q. And can you recall when this was?
A. I think it was sometime in '07.
Q. And did you have an understanding as to why Mr. Lopez wanted you to come out and meet
with Mr. Jackson?
A. I think it was just a kind of A. Get-acquainted meeting.
Q. But you already knew him, didn't you?
A. Yeah.
Q. So why did you have an understanding as to why they wanted to get acquainted?
A. No; but we went anyway.
Q. OK. And you said Peter Lopez. Tell us who Peter Lopez is, if you know.
A. He was Michael Jackson's attorney.

Q. Had you ever worked with Mr. Lopez prior to that meeting?
A. My partner John had, knew him.
Q. So Mr. Meglen knew Mr. Lopez?
A. Yes.
Q. And he had worked with him before?
A. Yes.
Q. And it was Mr. Lopez who called Mr. Meglen and asked him if you would actually come and
talk to them?
A. Yeah.
Q. This is 2007. Do you have an understanding as to whether? Mr. Jackson had toured at any
time in the 20 years between the end of the "History" tour and 2007 when you went to Las
Vegas?
A. He did a he did a show I think it was in Korea, and he did one in Munich, just like two
together. That was it.
Q. Any tours in that time period that you're Aware of?
A. I don't think so.
Q. Now, in this meeting well, strike that. So you did you go to Las Vegas
A. Yes.
Q. and meet and who all went?
A. John and I went.
Q. Just the two of you?
A. Yes.
Q. And who was there in Las Vegas that you were meeting with?
A. Well, Michael was there; and his manager at the time I believe was Raymone Bain. She was
there. There were a couple of attorneys there, Peter Lopez was there.
Q. Who is Raymone Bain?
A. She said she was his manager.
Q. I'm looking at my math. It was ten years. I apologize. It was ten years since he had toured; is
that correct? '97 to 2000? My math is not like yours.
A. Well, it would be 12 years because he didn't tour until '09 he wouldn't have toured until '09.
Q. OK. And so had you met Raymone Bain before?
A. No.
Q. And was this the first time you were meeting Mr. Lopez?
A. Oh, I'd met him occasionally. I didnt never worked with him; but, you know, I met him.
Q. And tell me what you can recall about this meeting.
A. It was a it was kind of a general meeting. We took our sizzle what we call our sizzle reels,
which are little video clips that are just a few minutes that explain our companies. We had one
for A.E.G. Live and we had one for A.E.G. We showed those.
Q. OK.
A. Just kind of talked about our company A. Little bit.
Q. And sizzle reel, what's on that?

A. It's almost like an advertisement. It's just, you know talks about different things we do and
that sort of thing. Different shows we do. And A.E.G.'s reel talks about the venues and the sports
teams and the rest of that.
Q. And if you can recall, why did you bring those?
A. Just to kind of a visual presentation of who we were.
Q. Do you recall where that meeting took place?
A. It was in Las Vegas.
Q. Do you know where there?
A. No, I don't recall specifically.
Q. OK. During that meeting, did you come to understand why they had asked you to come to Las
Vegas?
A. Not really.
Q. Did you talk about touring during that meeting?
A. We didn't talk about Michael touring. We talked maybe about A.E.G. Live and how we do
tours.
Q. Did you have an understanding from Mr. Jackson why they had asked you to come?
A. No.
Q. And did you have any follow-up meetings?
A. Well, we had one in '08, again, in Las Vegas. And that one was a lot about king tut.
Q. Just to make sure I understand, I have it, so you were asked to come to Las Vegas in 2007,
you brought your sizzle reels and talked about A.E.G. And A.E.G. Live?
A. Right.
Q. There was no discussion about a tour. Do you recall anything else that was discussed in that
meeting?
A. Well, king tut was on our sizzle reel; and Michael got pretty excited when he saw that.
Q. And what was on your sizzle reel about king tut?
A. Just that we were promoting it. You know, there were probably some, you know, visuals of it,
that sort of thing.
Q. Now, king tut is not a concert tour, right?
A. No.
Q. What is king tut?
A. It's artifacts of king tut, and there you do these usually in museums or special facilities, not in
arenas.
Q. And what is it you do with them? What was the king tut show?
A. Artifacts.
Q. Well, what did you do with the artifacts? Did you present them on the stage? Did you
A. No. They were in museum style, they were in Cases laid out, people would walk through and
look at them.
Q. And does it tour around the world?
A. Yes, but it would sit. Like in L.A. It sat here for a couple of months. At the Lacma, L.A.
County museum of art, I think is where we had it in L.A.
Q. So this is done in conjunction with museums around the world, the king tut show was?
A. Some museums, once in a while a different facility, yeah.

Q. And that was part of your sizzle reels?

A. Yes.
Q. And you said that Mr. Jackson was excited about that. What do you mean?
A. Well, he was a big fan of king tut; and I think that's what really precipitated the second
meeting that we were you know, you were asking about, was he'd written with this lady, he'd
written a miniseries about king tut, and so that was the second meeting was talking about king
tut and about their miniseries.
Q. And where did the second meeting take place?
A. It was in Vegas.
Q. You said you thought this was in 2008?
A. I think so.
Q. And who was at that meeting, if you can recall?
A. Michael was there, I believe Peter Lopez was there, the screenwriter that wrote the wrote the
miniseries was there, there was some other people I don't recall, John and I went.
Q. Now, at any point in this, did did Mr. Jackson strike that. You'd indicated that Mr. Lopez and
Mr. Meglen knew each other, that's how they set up the first meeting. Did Mr. Jackson ever
realize that it was you, Paul Gongaware, that he had worked with previously?
A. I don't think so, because when at the first meeting, Peter introduced me, and he looked at me,
and he went, "Paul Gongaware? Whenever I saw you, I knew things were always going to be
OK." and it was quite a compliment that he remembered me, and he would say that.
Q. So he didn't know you were coming; but when you got there, he knew who you were?
A. He did remember me, yeah. I was surprised.
Q. What did you say, if you recall?
A. Sorry?
Q. What did you say, if you recall?
A. "hi, mike."
Q. Speaking of which, you were asked a series of questions at one point about "Mikey." a lot of
your e-mails say "Mikey" in them, "Mikey" this and "Mikey" that.
A. Yeah.
Q. And why is that? Why do you refer to him as mikey?
A. I would occasionally he had this like really playful part of him. He loved to laugh and have a
good time and joke around; and when he'd get in those spaces, I'd call him mikey.
Q. Did you mean it as an insult?
A. No, no. I liked the guy.
Q. Were you mocking him?
A. No.
Q. In your e-mails, were you trying to mock him when you called him "Mikey"?
A. No.
Q. And this is something you'd say to him in person?
A. Yes.
Q. So he recognized you in the first meeting, you had a subsequent meeting the following year,
and it was about king tut. Going to that meeting, can you recall if you knew that that meeting
was what that meeting was for?

A. Yeah, we knew he wanted to talk about king tut.

Q. And what did you talk about, if you can recall?
A. He actually it was like a presentation, they presented their ideas with you know, for the king
tut miniseries.
Q. And is this something they were interested in doing in conjunction with your traveling show?
A. No, no. They wanted to do a miniseries.
Q. And why would they come to talk to you about a miniseries?
A. I don't know. I mean, A.E.G. Has A. Television division, and that kind of thing. Maybe that's
what he was thinking.
Mr. Panish: I move to strike, speculation, no foundation.
Judge: motion granted, the answer is stricken.
Q. By Mr. Putnam: did you come to have an understanding as to why they were coming to you to
talk about this miniseries?
A. Just that we were A.E.G.
Q. OK. Now, can you recall anything else from this second meeting in 2008 when you were
talking about king tut?
A. That was that's what it was mainly about.
Q. Did you talk about any did you talk about touring at this point?
A. No.
Q. Did you talk about Mr. Jackson going back into the music business in any way?
A. No.
Q. Now, in this meeting in 2007 in Las Vegas had you seen Mr. Jackson at any time in the
intervening ten years?
A. No.
Q. How did he seem to you at that meeting?
A. He was great.
Q. What do you mean?
A. He was he was active, engaged, you know, he seemed very clear-thinking.
Q. Did he seem thin to you at that point?
A. Yeah, he always seemed thin to me.
Q. Did he seem did you have any suspicions at that point that there might be an issue with
prescription drugs?
A. No.
Q. Did he seem under the influence in any way?
A. No.
Q. Did you have any concerns about his prior drug use when you met him in 2007?
A. No. I mean, I'd just gone through a tour with Him on "History." and he wasn't doing anything
like that.
Q. Well, it had been ten years. Did he seem changed in those ten years?
A. Not really.
Q. What about the follow-up meeting in 2008 when you were talking about king tut? How did he
seem at that meeting, if you can remember
A. He was good.

Q. What was he like?

A. You know, he was the same. He was alert, he was engaged, he was interested in what was
going on.
Q. Did how did that the king tut meeting end? Did it end with you having a deal to go do king
tut, or further discussion? What happened?
A. Well, we told him we would take it back to our film department, our T.V. Department, and let
them know about all this.
Q. So that was actually discussed in the meeting?
A. Yes.
Q. And was anything any project other than king tut discussed during that meeting?
A. Not that I remember.
Q. OK. Now and was there any follow-up? Did you guys bring it back and bring it to your film
and T.V. Department?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you do that?
A. I think I sent it over to them, yeah.
Q. And who did you send it to?
A. David Weil at Walden.
Q. At what, sir?
A. Walden films.
Q. And were there any follow-up meetings about the king tut project after that?
A. No.
Q. Do you have an understanding as to why?
A. They didn't think it was a viable project.
Q. And when you say "they," who do you mean?
A. The T.V. And the film guys.
Q. And were there any other meetings related to the king tut project that you were involved with?
A. Not that I remember.
Q. Did was there a meeting after that that you had with Mr. Jackson?
A. There was another one in New York.
Q. And what was that one about
A. You know, I don't remember what was discussed.
Q. New York?
A. Yes.
Q. Was that after the king tut meeting in Vegas or before?
A. It was after.
Q. After. Was this all in 2008?
A. I believe so, yeah.
Q. And do you recall anything about that meeting?
A. I don't remember that one very clearly, no.
Q. Well, you remember there was a meeting, right?
A. Yes.
Q. What do you remember?

A. Michael was there, I think John was there, I think Tim Leiweke was there, I think randy was
there, and I think Peter Lopez was there.
Q. And when you say "randy," do you mean randy Phillips?
A. Yes.
Q. And do you have an understanding whether this was about king tut?
A. No, it wasn't about king tut.
Q. All right. Was it about music?
A. I don't remember that meeting.
Q. OK. So there's nothing you remember about that?
A. Not really.
Q. OK. Did a time come after that where discussions began about the possibility of Mr. Jackson
going back on tour?
A. Yes.
Q. And when did that occur, sir?
A. That was in '08 sometime.
Q. OK. And do you have an understanding as to how it came to be that you started to have
discussions about Mr. Jackson going back on tour?
A. Dr. Tohme was his manager, approached us about it.
Q. So previously Michael's manager strike that. Previously Michael's lawyer, Peter Lopez,
approached you, and you had meetings; and now this time his manager, Dr. Tohme, approached
you?
A. Yes.
Q. And who is Dr. Tohme?
A. He was Michael's manager.
Q. And by "manager," what do you mean?
A. He was he was handling Michael's affairs and straightening out a lot of business issues that
Michael had.
Q. Had you ever heard of Dr. Tohme before this time?
A. No.
Q. You hadn't met him?
A. At that point, I hadn't met him.
Q. Was he someone known in the industry?
A. No.
Q. And so he contacted you about the possibility of meeting with Mr. Jackson. And did meetings
occur after that?
A. Dr. Tohme didn't contact me.
Q. What happened?
A. I don't know who he contacted. Someone in our company.
Q. And then were there meetings that occurred thereafter?
A. Yes.
Q. And what do you know about those meetings?
A. Just started to discuss one of them was a Michael Jackson exhibit at the Hiton in Las Vegas.
Then it started to evolve into tour discussions.

Q. All right. Let's break that down a little bit. First of all, who were involved in these discussions
on your end? Were you involved in these discussions?
A. Some of them. Randy primarily was doing that.
Q. By "randy," again, that's randy Phillips?
A. Yes.
Q. So you were involved, it was primarily randy Phillips. Anyone else from your company
involved?
A. I don't recall
Q. OK. And on Mr. Jackson's side, you mentioned a Dr. Tohme. Was Mr. Jackson involved?
A. Not in those discussions, not that I remember.
Q. OK. Anybody else on Mr. Jackson's side involved beyond this Dr. Tohme?
A. Peter Lopez was involved.
Q. And that's the lawyer?
A. Yes.
Q. Anyone else?
A. In those earlier discussions, I don't recall anybody else.
Q. All right. So in these earlier discussions, you said that there was a discussion about an exhibit
at the Hiton in Las Vegas. What do you mean?
A. Well, that was the first meeting I remember going to; and I think that's where I met Dr.
Tohme. It was at colony capital, and they own the Hiton in Las Vegas, and they had taken the
mortgage or the note on Neverland, and they were trying to figure out how to either take the
house at Neverland and build a Michael Jackson exhibit at the Hilton, or they were just trying to
figure out what they could do. It was really the first meeting that I remember.
Q. And let's talk about that a little bit. What's colony capital, if you know?
A. I'm not really sure what they are technically, but they're investors.
Q. And are they people you'd ever met with before this meeting?
A. I'd never met them.
Q. And at this first meeting, do you remember who was there?
A. Randy, me, I believe Dr. Tohme was there, and Mr. Nanula, who was from colony.
Q. Nanula?
A. Yes.
Q. Do you know his first name?
A. I think it's Richard.
Q. Richard? Again, you hadn't met him before?
A. No.
Q. So you met Dr. Tohme, you met Richard Nanula at colony, and you believe you were there
with randy Phillips and yourself?
A. Yes.
Q. Anybody else you can recall?
A. Not that I remember.
Q. OK. And where did those meetings take place? Where was it in Las Vegas?
A. No; it was in the colony capital offices in century city.
Q. And you said that they had bought the note on Neverland. What do you mean by that?

A. Well, I I think whoever held the note before, whoever owned that note, was about to foreclose
on Neverland, and colony came in I think at the last minute and actually took on that obligation.
Q. A couple things just to make sure I understand. Neverland. What is Neverland, in your
understanding?
A. That's Michael's residence in Santa Barbara County.
Q. And you said the owner of the note was going to foreclose on Neverland. What do you mean
by "note" in this context?
Mr. Panish: I just object on the foundation of this witness's knowledge of any of this. If
counsel could lay some foundation for this witness

Mr. Putnam: I'm asking his understanding, your honor, of what occurred in the meeting.
Mr. Panish: excuse me. I would object to his foundation and knowledge of this.
Judge: sustained.
Q. By Mr. Putnam: sir, when you said the "note" on Neverland, what did you mean?
A. I meant the mortgage.
Mr. Putnam: OK.
Mr. Panish: I object on the foundation on the mortgage, the note, all of that for this witness.
Judge: sustained.
Mr. Putnam: OK.
Q. You indicated that you had a meeting at colony capital. You'd indicated that there was a note
on Neverland, and that there was going to be foreclosure and that colony had taken over the note;
is that correct?
A. Yes.
Q. And where did you learn that?
A. I think in that meeting. At least some of it was in that meeting.
Q. Some of it was in that meeting?
A. In that meeting, yes.
Q. And did someone explain to you in that meeting what was going on with Neverland?
A. They were trying to figure out what to do with Neverland.
Q. And when you say "they," who do you mean?
A. Colony.
Q. And were they discussing that in the meeting?
A. Discussing what?
Q. What to do with Neverland.
A. Well, that's what I you know, they were thinking about taking they owned the Hiton in
Vegas, and they were thinking about how could they take that and create a Michael Jackson
exhibit at the Hilton.
Q. And based on this, everything you're telling us are things that you learned in that meeting; is
that correct?
Mr. Panish: objection; it's leading and suggestive. I wasn't objecting to the Las Vegas Hiton
museum, I'm objecting to the other areas which there's no foundation for him to testify on,
as to what was going on, the mortgage, who was involved, all of that information.

Mr. Putnam: your honor, what I'm seeking to understand is what occurred in that meeting
and what he understood occurred. I'm not seeking for the truth of the matter asserted in
any measure, I'm looking for what he understood in that meeting.
Judge: was Mr. Jackson participating in the discussions?
Mr. Gongaware no. He wasn't there.
Judge: OK.
Q. By Mr. Putnam: did you have an understanding from that meeting as to who held the note on
Neverland?
A. Yes; colony.
Judge: OK. Let's go to sidebar for A. Minute.
SIDEBAR.

Mr. Putnam: all right. So we're at colony capital, and we're in century city, you said.
Mr. Gongaware I think it was.
Mr. Putnam: and let me go back and make sure I understand.
Q. And who was there again, sir?
A. Randy, Dr. Tohme, I was there, and Mr. Nanula.
Q. Did you say previously that Mr. Lopez was there?
A. He may have been. I he may have been.
Q. And your understanding was that Mr. Lopez was Mr. Jackson's attorney?
A. Yes.
Q. And what was your understanding as to who Mr. Tohme was?
A. He was Michael's manager.
Q. And what was your understanding as to who Mr. Nanula was?
A. He worked for colony.
Q. And at this time, what was your understanding as to what colony capital's role was, if any,
with Mr. Jackson?
A. Just their involvement with Neverland.
Q. And how did you come to that understanding?
A. Because of what was discussed in the meeting.
Q. And the did someone say something to you in the meeting that made you believe that colony
capital had some role in Neverland?
A. Yes.
Q. And who said that?
A. I'm not sure.
Q. Was it said by randy Phillips?
A. I think it was from the colony side, it probably would have been from Mr. Nanula. Don't
recall specifically, but
Q. And can you recall and can you recall what was said?
A. Well, "we're really interested in taking Neverland the assets of Neverland and creating a
something at the Las Vegas Hilton, an exhibit or a or a museum or " they were just trying to
figure it out at the time.

Q. And did they explain to you what they were trying to figure out?
Judge: let's be clear about who the "they" Are.
Mr. Putnam: I'm going to.
Q. Did they explain to you what they were trying to figure out at the time?
Mr. Panish: who's "they"? Vague and ambiguous.
Judge: I think he's going to try to tell us who the "they" are.
Mr. Putnam: right.
Q. Did you I can go that way, as well. Who was explaining this to you?
A. I I think the discussion really came from Mr. Nanula.
Q. And that's the guy at colony capital?
A. Yes.
Q. And you'd indicated that Colony Capital held the note on Neverland. Did you understand that
from him?
Mr. Panish: objection; no foundation, leading and suggestive.
Q. By Mr. Putnam: what did Mr. Nanula say, if You recall?
Mr. Panish: it's hearsay what Mr. Nanula
Judge: it is hearsay, but it's not for the truth, but we're going to have to move it along to get
to the
Mr. Putnam: yes, your honor
Mr. Panish: it is for the truth.
Judge: non-hearsay.
Mr. Putnam: all I want to understand, your honor, is what his understanding was as to why
the meeting was occurring.
Mr. Panish: he just told us.
Q. By Mr. Putnam: why was the meeting occurring, sir?
A. Well, because of their interest in Neverland and trying to figure out what they wanted to do
with it.
Q. And did they tell you what their interest in Neverland was?
A. Yes, I believe that's where I learned it.
Q. And what did they what did colony capital tell you their interest in Neverland was?
Mr. Panish: that's hearsay.
Judge: let me say this. There was A. Proposal right? for the concerning the Neverland and
setting up this exhibit in Las Vegas?
Mr. Gongaware I don't think there was a proposal as much as there was just a discussion.
Judge: OK. A. Discussion. There was A. Discussion.
Mr. Gongaware yeah.
Judge: and it was initiated by Nanula, the colony people, right?
Mr. Gongaware yes, that's what they were interested in.
Judge: OK. Did Tohme and Lopez and any of those people have a reaction to that? Did
they have A. Discussion? Did they react to that in some manner?
Mr. Gongaware I think Tohme was aware of what they wanted to do.
Judge: OK. But, I mean, what did he respond to when they brought up that suggestion?
Mr. Gongaware I don't remember specifically.

Q. By Mr. Putnam: do you recall when he said he didn't want to do that, Dr. Tohme?
Mr. Panish: there's no foundation. He just said he didn't know what he said.
Judge: it's a little bit leading, too.
Mr. Panish: it's also leading.
Mr. Putnam: all right.
Q. So from this meeting, you understood that they were interested in doing an exhibit of
Neverland in Las Vegas; is that correct?
A. Yes.
Mr. Panish: just vague. Is "they" colony? Is that what we're saying?
Mr. Putnam: yes, colony.
Judge: I believe that's correct. They're the ones that wanted to do the exhibit?
Mr. Gongaware that's what I
Judge: OK.
Mr. Putnam: and they said the Hilton.
Q. Did they tell you why they wanted to do it at the Hilton?
A. They owned the Hilton.
Q. And did you have an understanding as to why they were coming to you to have this
discussion?
A. No. I was hoping we were going to be talking about touring.
Q. And why were you hoping that?
A. I wanted to do a tour.
Q. And was that discussed in this meeting at all?
A. I don't think it was. That surprised me.
Mr. Panish: well
Q. By Mr. Putnam: and can you recall anything else that occurred in this first meeting that you
had at colony capital?
A. Not really, except I mean, it was I think it was really the first time I met Dr. Tohme.
Q. And this was in 2008. You said these were the early discussions. Were there subsequent
discussions of that from that first discussion with colony capital?
A. I don't remember anything else with colony that I was involved in.
Q. So this was the only meeting in which you were involved where colony capital was involved?
A. That I remember.
Q. Do you have any awareness as to whether there were any subsequent meetings with colony
capital in which you weren't involved?
A. There may have been, but I didnt I Don't know for sure.
Q. So when you talked about these earlier discussions, what other discussions were there that
you were talking about?
A. It didn't really involve me, I don't think. It was randy and speaking with Dr. Tohme.
Mr. Panish: I object, move to strike, no foundation. Sustained.
Q. By Mr. Putnam: tell me what other discussions you were involved with, if any.
Mr. Panish: with who?
Mr. Gongaware some internal discussions, but I don't remember any external
Q. By Mr. Putnam: what were the internal discussions?

A. Started to try to formulate if there was going to be a tour, what we would do, how we could
do it.
Judge: a tour you mean a concert tour?
Mr. Gongaware I was at that time, yes.
Judge: a concert tour. OK.
Q. By Mr. Putnam: and you were involved in those discussions internally at A.E.G. Live
A. Internally.
Q. And who were those discussions with?
A. Randy, John.
Q. That's John Meglen?
A. Yes.
Q. And did those discussions result in any further conversations with Mr. Jackson or his people
that you're aware of?
A. Yeah. At that point, it became sort of an ongoing process.
Q. And that process involved Mr. Jackson's people?
A. Yes.
Q. And who is your understanding that that involved from Mr. Jackson's team?
A. It was Dr. Tohme, Peter Lopez.
Q. Was Mr. Jackson involved in those discussions?
A. Not on our side.
Q. I know not on your side, but was Mr. Jackson involved in those discussions on his side?
A. Maybe internally with his people, but not with us.
Q. OK. And in what time period are we talking about? When did these discussions occur?
A. It was like in '08.
Q. And if I wanted to find out what happened in those discussions, who should I talk to?
A. Randy, john, maybe, he might recall.
Q. Are they the best people to talk to about what happened in these discussions?
A. In our internal ones?
Q. Uh-huh.
A. Yes.
Q. And what about these external ones, who would be the best person to talk to?
A. That would be randy.
Q. OK. Ultimately did it come to be that A.E.G. Live entered into a contract or agreement with
Mr. Jackson to go on tour?
A. Yes.
Q. And do you have an understanding as to whether that contract was in writing?
A. It was.
Q. And have you ever read that contract?
A. No.
Q. Do you have an understanding as to when that it's a written contract. Do you know if that
contract was ever signed?
A. Yes, it was. I was there when Michael signed it.
Q. When was it signed, if you can recall?

A. Towards the end of January of '09.

Q. You said you were there. can you recall who else was there?
A. Yes.it was at Michael's Michael's home, the Carolwood house; and Shawn trell was there;
randy was there; I was there; Dr. Tohme was there; Michael, obviously, was there; and I believe
Peter Lopez was there; and I think there was a another attorney there, Dennis hawk, something I
think, maybe.
Q. OK. Who is Dennis Hawk?
A. He was an attorney, another attorney that worked with Michael.
Q. And did you understand was Mr. Lopez there on behalf of Mr. Jackson?
A. Yes.
Q. Was Dr. Tohme there?
A. Yes.
Q. Anybody else you can recall?
A. At that meeting, I just think I just went through that. Do you want me to do it again?
Q. No. I wanted to make sure I got them all. And where did that take place?
A. At the Carolwood house, at Michael's home.
Q. Can you remember where in the house it took place?
A. Yeah. There was a where most of the meetings took place, there was a living room that was
off of the entrance, it was A. Sunken living room.
Q. So when you walk into the house, was it to your right? To your left? Down the hall?
A. Left.
Q. To your left?
A. To your left as you walked in.
Q. And that's where the signing occurred?
A. Yes.
Q. Tell me what you can recall about the signing, if anything.
A. The thing that stands out most was that Michael took the time, literally, to read the entire
contract before he signed it.
Q. The whole thing?
A. You know, I don't know how long it was. It wasn't that long, but he did, he read everything.
Q. Do you know why?
A. No.
Q. Anything else you can recall from that meeting?
A. That's what stands out.
Q. OK. Did was this the first time you'd seen Mr. Jackson since those earlier meetings you
described where you were I guess the last one was in New York?
A. I think it was.
Q. Now, how did Mr. Jackson seem at this meeting at his Carolwood home at the signing?
A. He was good.
Q. And why do you say that?
A. I just remember being he was engaged, he was alert, he was paying attention.
Q. Did he say anything that you can recall?
A. No, not that I recall.

Q. What about yourself? Were you did you say anything to him?
A. Not that I remember.
Q. How were you feeling at that point about the idea of doing another tour with Mr. Jackson?
You'd done two previously.
A. I felt great about it.
Q. Why?
A. It's a Michael Jackson tour. It's really an exciting thing.
Q. And did you have any concerns at that point that there might be a problem like there had been
on the first tour you had done with him, "Dangerous," with the prescription drugs?
A. No. I watched him pretty carefully, and in the meetings that we had, and I never saw any
sign of it, so I you know, I didn't really have a concern. I mean, I knew that he went to rehab; and
as far as I knew, he was fine.
Q. But those were things subsequent to this. I'm talking about just specifically at Carolwood, did
you have any concerns at that point?
A. No.
Q. Did you have any discussion with anyone at this point that there had been a problem on the
prior tour, and therefore, you were worried that he might have an issue with prescription drugs?
A. I don't know. I was always looking, always trying to be aware; but discussions with other
people, I don't remember.
Q. OK. At that point in time, prior to the signing of the contract, did you do anything to make
sure that Mr. Jackson was not on drugs?
A. Prior to signing the contract?
Q. Yes.
A. No.
Q. Now, subsequent to the signing of the contract, there's been testimony that there was A.
Physical done on Mr. Jackson. Are you aware of that physical?
A. Yes.
Q. In fact, you were asked several questions about that physical by Mr. Panish, correct?
A. I think so, yes.
Mr. Putnam: could I get 2344. Actually, you know what? Let's do
Mr. Panish: can I get a copy?
Mr. Putnam: it's one you used. 74-1, dash, 2.
Judge: is that 74, 1 and 2, or 741?
Mr. Panish: it says 2344 on the transcript.
Ms. Stebbins: I think you have the wrong number.
Mr. Putnam: it's one that was used with him yesterday, I believe, yesterday morning. May I
approach, your honor?
Judge: yes.
Mr. Putnam: I'll give you a second to look at that, sir.
Mr. Gongawaregot it.
Mr. Putnam: zoom out to the whole document.
Q. When you've had a chance to look do you remember looking at this yesterday morning and
being asked questions about it?

A. Yes.
Q. And let's start on the second page, which I believe is the first e-mail. And this is the one that
you were asked about that says it's from you to bob Taylor on February 6th, 2009. Do you see
that?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, this is one you were asked about you weren't asked about everything in it, so I wanted
to ask you some things. Do you see the subject line? It says "routing, proposed, London."
A. Yes.
Q. Do you see that?
A. Uh-huh.
Q. And there's "bob, let me know if you need anything else. Paul G.," right?
A. Yes.
Q. Remind everyone. Bob Taylor is?
A. He was the insurance broker we used to deal with Lloyd's of London.
Q. And let's go to the response on the next page. Now, you see, again, this is on February 11th,
2009, at the top; and it's dated February 12th, 2009. Do you have an understanding as to why
there's a difference in those dates?
A. No.
Q. OK. And what you were asked about yesterday, he said, "do you remember being asked for A.
Medical update about Mr. Jackson?" do you remember being asked about that yesterday
morning?
A. Yes
Q. And I want to go down and show what was actually asked. OK? Let's go to what was being
asked of you. So if we start in the beginning, it says "thanks, Paul. I now have medical and blood
reports." did you have an understanding as to what that meant?
A. Yeah. That referred to the physical that Michael took for Lloyd's of London.
Q. So Lloyd's of London you knew from Lloyd's of London and this that the medical and blood
reports had been done?
A. Yes.
Q. And then right after, it said, "look good." do you know what that meant?
A. I think it meant that the physical went fine.
Q. Is that how you understood it?
A. That's how I understood it.
Q. And then it goes on to ask about "I now need more info if it's available. This will help with the
presentation of the insurers." now, when you were asked what you had done because your
response was "I'm not ready to put anything in writing," do you remember saying it's because
things weren't ready yet?
A. Yeah, all these questions that he asked, there were no answers to.
Q. Because this is February 11th or 12th, 2009, correct?
A. Yes.
Q. And Mr. Jackson had just signed the contracts about a week and a half before?
A. Right.

Q. Let's go through what you were asked quickly. One, it says "the contract says a minimum 80-
minute set. What are you expecting, including intermissions and set changes?" did you yet know
what you were expecting to do in terms of intermissions and set changes?
A. No, we had no idea at that point.
Q. It goes on to talk about back-to-back shows, and that would be a problem. "can we delete
them now and try to add them later, once he has got some shows under his belt?" did you know
exactly what your schedule was going to be at this point?
A. No.
Q. It goes on to talk about support from P.R. Number 4 talks about where he will live in London.
Did you know where he was going to live in London yet?
A. No.
Q. It goes on to ask "once in the U.K., will he remain in London during the entirety of the run?"
again, did you know that at this point?
A. No.
Q. They asked about the idea for the stage set. Did you have an idea of what the stage set was?
A. No.
Q. Had you discussed any of these things yet with Mr. Jackson?
A. No.
Q. And they were asking these things in terms of things that the insurers wanted to know? Is that
your understanding?
A. Yes, I believe so.
Q. Let's go to the next one, which is the one that you were asked about but not shown. It says
"didn't you understand that this was to provide A. Medical update?" let's read what it says. "I
would like to offer insurers a medical update, say every 21 days. This could be Dr. Slavit or a
London-based doctor who we could recommend. I did not want to suggest this to the insurers if it
would be difficult to deliver. What do you think? They may insist anyway." did you understand
this to be they were asking you for a medical update of Mr. Jackson on February 11th or
February 12?
A. Yeah, every three weeks.
Q. Every three weeks during rehearsals or in London?
A. I don't know.
Q. You didn't know, right?
A. No.
Q. OK. And do you remember there ever being any follow-up on this where the insurers asked
you to have a medical update every three weeks?
A. I don't remember any.
Q. And is this did anyone ever tell you that the insurers wanted a medical update of Mr. Jackson
every three weeks?
A. Not that I remember.
Q. If we go on after that, it talks about insuring other personnel. Did you have an understanding
as to whether Mr. Jackson was seeking strike that. Did you have an understanding as to whether
other personnel on the tour would also be insured?
A. I didnt at that time, I didn't know.

Q. And what about family members? Did you have an understanding as to whether Mr. Jackson
sought to have various family members also insured?
A. No.
Q. So at this time when you say at the top "I'm not ready to put anything into writing," is that
because you had no idea the answer to any of these questions at the time
A. Yeah, exactly, and I didnt it was A. Long e-mail, and I didn't want to take time writing "I
don't know" to all these answers.
Q. Now, did the time come after this where you started to learn what the answers to various of
these things would be?
A. Yeah, as you go along now.
Q. At this point, February 11, 2009, or February 12, 2009, did you have any concerns at that
point that Mr. Jackson was using drugs?
A. No.
Q. Did you have any concern at that point that Mr. Jackson had an ongoing problem with
prescription drugs?
A. No.
Q. And at that point you had now learned that he had had a physical, and he had done blood work
and done his medical; is that correct?
A. Yes.
Q. What was the impact on you knowing that that had occurred?
A. It just confirmed what I believed, that he was fine, and he wasn't doing any drugs, he wasn't
doing any of that stuff, he was good.
Q. Now, was this physical something that A.E.G. Live had said was necessary before they would
do a tour?
A. No.
Q. Who had mandated that this physical take place?
A. I believe that Lloyd's of London, or maybe bob Taylor, said we had to do it. They sent a
doctor who none of us knew to do it, and he came from New York to California to do it.
Q. And did you have any role in that physical at all?
A. No.
Q. Did you ever see the results of that physical, the actual write-up of what occurred?
A. No.
Q. Are you aware of whether anyone at A.E.G. Live ever saw the results of that physical?
A. I don't know.
Q. And is it your understanding that strike that. So this is a tour that's about to begin, those
various things have been gone through, were about to be worked on. What role was A.E.G. Live
going to play in the "This Is It" tour? Were they going to be promoting it? Were they going to
produce it? What were they going to do?
A. Both.
Q. Why were they going to do both?
A. Because that's what Michael wanted.
Q. Why did Michael want A.E.G. Live to produce and promote this show?
A. I don't know.

Q. OK. What is involved with producing the show that is different from promoting the show?
A. Well, promoting the show is selling the tickets, arranging the venue, doing the advertising,
doing the promotions, and running the event at the at the arena. Producing is sort of the other
side of that. It's getting the show ready; it's pulling together all the elements of the show, you
know, the sound, the lights, the video, the staging, the set, the crew, the staff. Really, just about
everything that you have to do for the show itself, as opposed to the show just coming in and you
promoting it.
Q. Now, does A.E.G. Live typically both produce and promote shows?
A. Typically, we're just promoters.
Q. So this was something you don't do typically is that correct? do both?
A. Right.
Q. And what types of acts, if you know, come to you to ask you to promote their events?
A. All types of acts.
Q. And are they different in any way than the types of acts that have come to you and asked you
to produce their events?
A. No, no.
Q. And when you're promoting a concert, are you advancing monies?
A. Yes.
Q. And when you're promoting a concert, are you also advancing monies?
A. You said "promoting."
Q. Oh, did I? I apologize. When you produce a tour, are you also advancing monies?
A. Well, it depends on the deal. In this case, we did, yes.
Q. And did you have an understanding as to whether it was important to Mr. Jackson that A.E.G.
Live advance monies to produce and promote this tour?
A. Yes, it was.
Q. And what is your understanding?
A. We needed to front all the money to do this. Do you want to know why, or what?
Q. If you understand.
A. He didn't have the money, so he needed us to do it.
Q. And what is that understanding based on?
A. Dr. Tohme.
Q. And that's Mr. Jackson's business manager?
A. Manager.
Q. And so had he indicated to you in some measure that Mr. Jackson needed you to do this
because he needed you to advance the monies?
A. That was part of it. He was really specific in saying Michael needs to make money, we need
to make him money on this tour. And he and he hit that a lot. He was very specific about that.
Q. Now, you hadn't had meetings with you hadn't had meetings with Dr. Tohme prior to the one
except for the one at colony capital in 2008; is that correct?
A. In '08?
Q. Uh-huh.
A. As we got going, you know, I believe I did meet with him, yes.
Q. And did he tell you this himself?

A. Yes.
Q. And do you remember where he told you that?
A. No.
Q. Were you surprised to learn this at the time?
A. I don't know if I was surprised.
Q. All right. Now, you were going to promote the show and Produce the show in this instance.
What was your role, you personally? What was your role on the "This Is It" tour?
A. I produced it and I was involved in the promotion. It was in the U.K., so I also used Rob
Hallet, who was runs our office over there.
Q. And tell me, you know, literally what type of things were you doing?
A. With which hat?
Q. That's a good question. On the production side.
A. Production was you know, I think the biggest thing was just keeping up with Michael and
Kenny. They started with a blank piece of paper, and they just started coming up with ideas and
and started thinking about gags, started thinking about tunes they wanted to be in the show. And
as they would come up with these ideas, I would have to with my guys, I would have to figure
out how are we going to do this? Can we do this? What's it going to cost? And all those things.
So my part of that process was just figuring out sort of the practical side of it while Kenny and
Michael were figuring out the creative side. So that was the that was the biggest part of my job, I
think, as the producer; but then I had to also, you know, work with all the elements, you know,
the deals for the sound and lights and video and 3d and the movies that we were going to create,
and all those other things. I had to also deal with all those while I was trying to keep up with
Kenny and Michael.
Q. All right. How did it come to be that you would learn about the creative elements that Mr.
Ortega and Mr. Jackson were interested in executing?
A. Kenny would talk to me about it.
Q. And when he would talk to you about it, these ideas, would Mr. Jackson be involved in those
meetings?
A. No. It was usually Kenny.
Q. And where would those meetings take place, if you can recall? Where would you talk to Mr.
Ortega?
A. Well, at rehearsals, you know, especially when in the formative stages, that was at Center
Staging in Burbank.
Q. Let's break that down just a little bit so I understand. You said during the formative stages.
Did were you in one rehearsal space during the entire time that you were rehearsing?
A. No. We had to move Center Staging is basically just a Rehearsal hall. We couldn't really put
any production in there. So that's where, in the initial phases, you know, the dancers, the singers,
the band and Michael would work out start to work out the show, work out the songs in the
show musically And you know, the dance and performance part of it. We couldn't really put in
any any production elements. That's why we went to the Forum, because then we would put up
our video screen and we could start to figure out how we were going to program that, what it was
going to look like, and a lot of the set elements went in then. But it didn't really have the trim
height or the height everything gets hung from the ceiling, all the you know, the lighting and
sounds and all that stuff above the stage gets hung from the ceiling on cables. We call that
rigging. And we didn't have enough height at the Forum to be able to put in all of the gags, all of

the effects and stuff we wanted, so at after we kind of worked through things at the Forum, we
moved into Staples center because there was a lot more trim height and we could add more gags
to what we were working on, working out things that we were working out.
Q. And where ultimately were the shows to take place?
A. At the 02 arena in London.
Q. And would there be any rehearsals at the 02, as well?
A. Yes.
Q. So to make sure I get the order, is the first place that rehearsals occurred Center Staging?
A. Yes.
Q. And where is Center Staging?
A. Burbank, near the airport.
Q. And next you said the Forum. Is that the Forum down in Inglewood?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you guys own the Forum, A.E.G.?
A. No.
Q. Do you own Center Staging?
A. No.
Q. Then you moved to Staples center, Staples center here?
A. Yes.
Q. And that is an A.E.G. Venue; is that correct?
A. Yes.
Q. And then after that, you would move to the 02, correct?
A. Right.
Q. Now, you talk about two things I want to understand. One, you talk about the idea of at Center
Staging, you couldn't really bring in any production elements. What do you mean by that?
A. Well, we couldn't really put up our video screens, we couldn't put up any lighting. We had
sound there, but it was just mostly monitors, just for the artists to hear themselves and to work on
their own stuff. But that stuff had to come where we had room to do it.
Q. And tell us a little bit about the physical space of Center Staging. How is it set up?
A. We had a we had two or three different rehearsal halls over there, and some offices. Initially,
when we moved in, the one stage that we kind of wanted, the bigger rehearsal stage, was taken,
so we moved into that maybe a little bit later, but we had it's a fairly, you know, large complex,
you know. There's maybe a dozen stages, a dozen rehearsal halls. So we had two or three of
those; and the dancers would be in one, the singers would be in A. Smaller one, the band would
be in a different one. Then when we got the bigger room at Center Staging, we moved
everybody into there and started, you know they started putting the show together.
Q. And when you said you also had some offices, what did you mean by that?
A. We got a production office and accounting office, stuff like that.
Q. And are these offices separate and apart from the stages?
A. Yes. On our case, they were.
Q. And were you in one of the were you on you personally, were you in one of the stages, or
were you in one of the offices
A. I worked out of a production office.

Q. Just to give us a sense of it, how big is A. Production office? Is it as big as this room?
A. No.
Q. Bigger?
A. No. Smaller. Over there, maybe it was A. Quarter of the size, not even that.
Q. And you said there was also an accounting office?
A. Yes.
Q. We've heard about a man named Timm Woolley. What is Timm Woolley's position?
A. He was like the business manager for the for the shows, for the tour.
Q. And was he involved in accounting?
A. Yes.
Q. And was he in the accounting office?
A. Yes, that's where he worked.
Q. And you were in the production office?
A. Yes.
Q. Who else was in the production office?
A. Bugzee worked out of there, the production manager. It was sort of a catchall room for other
people.
Q. Who else was there?
A. It would be like the stage manager and other guys that were involved in the production.
Q. The actual production?
A. Yes.
Q. And who was in the accounting office?
A. That would have been Timm ; and I don't recall if we had an additional or a temporary
accountant on there or not, as well.
Q. Anyplace here for hair and makeup?
A. No, I don't they we were into hair and makeup at that point at Center Staging.
Q. What about costumes?
A. Yeah, they may have been working on costumes there, yeah. That would have been a separate
area.
Q. And then when you moved to the Forum, is there more than one rehearsal space?
A. No. That was that was the stage itself.
Q. And at this point, you said this is when you started bringing in production elements; is that
correct?
A. Yes.
Q. What type of things were being brought in at this point?
A. We brought in sound, we brought in lighting, the screen. We initially just had a like a
projection screen; and then as our screen came in, we started building our screen, as well.
Q. And were there any offices that were used for example, was there an accounting office at the
Forum?
A. Yes.
Q. And was that up on the stage?
A. No.

Q. Tell me about the physical location. Where is the accounting office compared to where the
stage is?
A. The accounting office is in one of the hallways underneath the underneath the stands; and the
production office was in that area, as well. But it was pretty close to the floor and the stage.
Q. So is that literally underneath the stage?
A. Oh, no. No, no.
Q. Is it off and to the side?
A. Yes, underneath the stands, the seats.
Q. And at this point, did you have hair and makeup, as well?
A. I don't recall specifically. I think we did at some point there.
Q. What about costumes?
A. Yes.
Q. Mr. Gongaware, the do you have an understanding as to why this was called the "This Is It"
tour?
A. Yes. Michael said this is the last tour he was going to do.
Q. So who chose the name?
A. Michael.
Q. Do you have an understanding as to why this was going to be the last tour he was going to do?
A. No. That's just what he said.
Q. And are you familiar with the term "residency"?
A. Yes.
Q. What is a residency, sir?
A. A residency is when an artist stays in one place and fans come to him, as opposed to a tour,
where you have to go from city to city, country to country.
Q. And was this supposed to be a residency, the "This Is It" tour?
A. Yes.
Q. And why is that?
A. Because we never moved, we stayed in the same place.
Q. And where were you going to stay?
A. London.
Q. And why did you choose London?
A. Well, we didn't know what to expect, we didn't know what the ticket sales would be for
Michael with all the things that happened here with the kid things and everything, we didn't
know what to expect, so we wanted to go into his strongest market, and that was London.
Q. And why did you believe that London was Mr. Jackson's strongest market?
A. Based on History .
Q. Can you explain what you mean by that?
A. Like in the "bad" tour, he did ten shows at Wembley stadium. It holds 75,000 people.
Q. And so why was that relevant in your determination that London was a good place for you to
go?
A. Well, you never know you never know what kind of business a tour is going to do. It's up for
the public to decide, buy the tickets or not. And we didn't know what he was going to do, we had

no idea of what the demand would be, and we just wanted to be in the safest possible place in
terms of demand and, you know, making sure it was successful.
Q. And in your mind, that was London?
A. Yes.
Q. And in London, you were going to have the residency at the 02, correct?
A. Yes.
Q. There's been some testimony on this, so let me make sure I understand. The 02 arena is owned
by A.E.G.?
A. Yes.
Q. In the opening statement, Mr. Panish indicated that the fact that A.E.G. Live wanted to have
the "This Is It" tour in the 02 was because the 02 was owned by A.E.G. Is that true? Is that why
you had chose to have this at the 02 arena?
A. No. We knew we wanted to play London, and the 02 is the best possible place to play it.
Q. Why do you say it's the best possible place to play?
A. Well, there's only one other arena. Wembley arena only holds, on a good day, 10,000 people,
and it's really old. It used to be a swimming pool for the Olympics, so it's just not a good venue.
And the 02 was built only a couple of years ago, and It's a modern, American-style arena.
Q. Does A.E.G. Live only do concerts in venues that it owns?
A. No.
Q. If you're in a city where A.E.G. Live strike that. If you're in a city or location where A.E.G.
owns a venue, and there are other venues, do you always use the A.E.G. Venue?
A. No, no. Our philosophy is we do the best thing for the artist. So, you know, if it's A. Jump
ball, we'd like to think we would take it into an A.E.G. Facility; but that's not our main concern.
Our main concern is getting it right.
Q. Now, in terms of the "This Is It" tour, initially, at least, how many tours did Mr. Jackson and
A.E.G. Live agree that they would enter into to do?
A. Just this one.
Q. This one tour? How many shows?
A. The original contract was for I think it was for like 31 shows.
Q. Now, you haven't read the contract, so how do you know that?
A. I just I just know it.
Q. OK. So 31 shows do you have an understanding as to why there was an agreement to do 31
shows?
A. Yeah. Prince did 21 shows at the 02 in London, and Michael wanted to do ten more.
Q. Did he say or do you have an understanding as to why he wanted to do ten more shows than
prince?
A. No.
Q. So was it do I understand correctly that it was Mr. Jackson who chose the number 31?
A. Yes, that's my understanding.
Q. Now, when it was announced we'll get to the announcement in a moment. When it was
announced, it was announced that there would be ten shows. Why was it only announced that
there would be ten shows?

A. Well, like I was saying, you don't know what the ticket sales are going to be. It's totally up to
the public. So we only wanted to set out ten in case there were only ten there, it would look like
it was sold out and successful, so we started with ten and then worked into it.
Q. But the actual agreement was for 31?
A. Yes.
Q. And why did the number of shows increase to 50?
A. There was demand was there. It was obvious in the pre sale, and just I knew that we would
do more than 31, so I asked him for more shows.
Q. When you say you asked him for more shows, what do you mean?
A. I talked to Dr. Tohme, asked him if we could have more shows.
Q. Did you ask for 50 shows?
A. I asked for more.
Q. Would you like to have had more than 50?
A. Yes.
Q. Who chose the increase from 31 to 50?
A. I don't know who chose it; but Dr. Tohme called me back and said, "let's go with 50."
Q. And did you have an understanding when Dr. Tohme called you whether Mr. Jackson himself
had agreed to the 50 shows?
Mr. Panish: no foundation.
Mr. Putnam: I'm asking.
Mr. Panish: no. There's no foundation for this Witness.
Judge: did you talk to Tohme yourself.
Mr. Gongaware(moves head up and down.)
Judge: OK. Maybe there is. Overruled. Let's see if there Is a foundation.
Mr. Gongaware yes. I mean, he wouldn't, on his own I don't believe he would have, on his own,
just done that, so yes.
Q. By Mr. Putnam: but you were not told that by Dr. Tohme?
A. He told me to go to 50.
Q. He told you to go to 50. Did he tell you whether or not he'd had A. Discussion with Mr.
Jackson about this?
A. I dont I don't recall if he did or not.
Mr. Putnam: OK.
Mr. Panish: so can that be stricken? He doesn't know, then.
Judge: no. He doesn't know, so
Mr. Panish: well, but before he said that anyway. OK. Sorry.
Q. By Mr. Putnam: so it was announced that there would be ten shows, it was agreed there would
be 31 shows, and ultimately it was raised to 50 shows; is that correct?
A. Yes.
Q. All right. You'd indicated that in late January 2009, you'd been at the signing of the contract
with Mr. Jackson?
A. Yes.

Q. We'd seen some an e-mail between you and Mr. Taylor, who was an insurance broker, in the
middle, the 11th or the 12th of February; and at that point, you said that those elements, you
couldn't talk about because you hadn't decided any of them yet, correct?
A. Right.
Q. Now, did a time come where you announced to the world that the tour was going to take
place?
A. Well, the official announcement was the press conference in London that Michael did.
Q. Now, can you recall when the official announcement of the press conference was?
A. It was in March.
Q. I'm going to represent to you that there has been testimony that it was on March 5th, 2009.
Does that sound right to you?
A. OK, yeah.
Q. As we sit here today, you don't know?
A. I don't remember the exact date.
Q. All right. Let's go ahead with the idea that it was March 5th. OK?
A. OK
Q. Were you involved in any way well, Prior to the announcement on march 5th, 2009, was it
announced to the world that Mr. Jackson was going back on tour after not having toured in A.
Decade, more than a decade?
A. Well, he announced it at the press conference, but the official announcement was at the press
conference.
Q. So that was the march 5th announcement?
A. Yes.
Q. Was there any announcement in any way to the world prior to that that Mr. Jackson was going
back on tour?
A. No. There was an intense amount of speculation in the British press, but we never officially
announced any of that.
Q. So March 5th was the first official announcement?
A. Right.
Q. Now, were you present at the announcement?
A. At the press conference?
Q. Uh-huh.
A. Yes.
Q. Where did the press conference take place?
A. In the there's a giant I guess you'd called it entryway or something into the 02 complex. And
the arena is there, and there's a whole bunch of restaurants and shops and other things there.
Right in that area in the entryway.
Q. So to make sure I understand, the announcement of the press conference took place in
London?
A. Right.
Q. And it was at the 02?
A. Yes, in front of the arena.
Q. And you were there for that?

A. Yes.
Q. Now, did you recall whether strike that. When Mr. Jackson was preparing to go to the press
conference, were you with him while he was preparing?
A. No.
Q. And is it your understanding that anyone from A.E.G. Live was with Mr. Jackson when he
was preparing for the press announcement?
A. Yes; randy was.
Q. Randy Phillips?
A. Yes.
Q. OK. So we can ask randy Phillips questions about the preparation?
A. Yes.
Q. All right. Where were you?
A. I was at the at the gig, at the preparing getting the press conference ready.
Q. You said you were at the gig. So you were actually helping prepare for the press conference
itself?
A. Yes.
Q. Do you remember what time the press conference was supposed to begin?
A. No, not specifically.
Q. Was it for the morning?
A. No; it was for the afternoon, I think.
Q. Afternoon? And was Mr. Jackson on time?
A. No.
Q. If you recall as you sit here today, how late was he?
A. A couple of hours.
Q. Were you surprised?
A. Not really.
Q. And why is that?
A. I don't know. Just didn't surprise me.
Q. Is there some reason why it didn't surprise you?
A. I don't know. Michael really doesn't like to do those things and, you know, it his schedules
don't always run like clockwork.
Q. This is a pretty big one, though, isn't it?
A. Yeah.
Q. I mean, Michael Jackson is coming back to the world stage?
A. Right.
Q. So were you annoyed?
A. Yeah, a little.
Q. Were you but you weren't surprised?
A. No.
Q. When did you first see Mr. Jackson at the press conference?
A. It was like kind of a big area I guess you'd call it backstage, and he came in
Q. And that's the first time you saw him?
A. That's the first time I saw him.

Q. Describe a little bit the scene. Was there any press?

A. Not in the area backstage. He walked into that area and he saw me and he came up to me and
he gave me a big hug. And he whispered in my ear, he said, "make sure the teleprompter has big
words. I don't have my glasses."
Q. OK. Were there Teleprompters to assist him?
A. Yes.
Q. All right. And what big words for what? What did he need words for?
A. On the Teleprompters.
Q. OK. How did he seem to you?
A. He was good.
Q. Did you say anything back?
A. I said OK.
Q. OK. Who did he arrive with?
A. He came with Dr. Tohme, randy, some security. I don't remember who else was with him.
Q. So after he gave you that hug and told you he'd forgot his Glasses, what happened next?
A. Then I said, "are you ready?" he went, "yeah, let's go." and then we had like an emcee, I guess
you'd call it, that went up and sort of announced you know, made the announcement, "here's
Michael Jackson."
Q. Now, when he came in and hugged you and spoke to you, did he seem inebriated in any way
to you?
A. No.
Q. Did he seem drunk?
A. No.
Q. Did he smell of alcohol?
A. No.
Q. Did he seem altered in any way?
A. No.
Q. How did he seem to you?
A. He was good. I think he was I think he was excited.
Q. And how soon after his arrival did he go up and you said the emcee started, and then did
Michael go up and follow him?
A. Yes, he kind of introduced Michael Jackson.
Q. And what about press? Was there press there?
A. Press were all out in front. It was like A. Curtain and then some stairs up to a low stage,
podium, teleprompters, and the press was all in a kind of A. Holding area, a pit, maybe, if you'd
call it that, right in front of the stage, and behind that were all the fans.
Q. And where were you?
A. I was backstage; and then I watched it from side stage where the teleprompter guy was, down
below.
Q. And where was Mr. Phillips?
A. I don't remember.
Q. And how did it go?
A. I thought it went great.

Q. Why?
A. Because he was really good, and the reaction from the press and everything was was really
good.
Q. What was the reaction from the press like, in your opinion?
A. It was good. I think the press was reporting that he was coming, and they were I think people
were happy that he was going to be there.
Q. And did you have any fans strike that. Did Mr. Jackson have any fans present?
A. Oh, yeah, lots.
Q. When you say "lots," what do you mean?
A. A couple thousand.
Q. And they were at the press conference?
A. Yes.
Q. And what was their reaction like?
A. They were screaming and cheering.
Q. Now, how did they know to be there?
A. Well, it was announced that Michael was doing a press conference.
Q. OK. And in your assessment at the time, how did you feel the press conference had gone?
A. I thought it went great.
Q. And afterwards, did you leave with Mr. Jackson?
A. No.
Q. Do you know who did?
A. I think the same party that came with him left.
Q. OK. And how soon after did sales did ticket sales begin?
A. I think like within a week.
Q. And I'm not going to go over all of that with sales you did previously, but I'm just going to ask
you, did sales go OK?
A. Yeah, they were great.
Q. And that's what resulted in your asking for more shows?
A. Yeah. We started out by asking people to register on michaeljacksonlive.com, and then we
would so we kept them informed of when the sales were going to be, and the only we had like a
pre-sale. Only people that had registered were able to purchase the pre-sale tickets, and the pre-
sale gave us a gauge or indication of how strong this was going to be.
Q. And how strong was it going to be?
A. Huge.
Q. Were you excited?
A. Yeah.
Q. And you said, when I was talking about this before the break we talked about the idea of you
can't be sure how it's going to go. Did you now have a sense of how it was going to go?
A. Yeah, once the pre-sale popped that big, there was no doubt.
Q. Now, tickets go on sale, you go up to 50 shows. when did you next strike that. Did you leave
the U.K. Right away?
A. No. I was there for a little while taking care of just details.
Q. And when was the next time that you spoke with Mr. Jackson?

A. While I was still in London, he called me, and I was like I was in Hyde Park, and I was
rollerblading, trying to get some exercise. And it was it was him on the phone, and I didn't
believe it was him. I thought somebody was just, you know, messing with me, joking. But it was
really Michael.
Q. And why did you think someone was messing with you?
A. I don't know. It's not that often that he would call without somebody else saying, "it's
Michael," you know, "can you take his call?" or whatever, you know. It was just it was him.
Q. Explain that to me. What do you mean, it was rare for him to call directly? What do you mean
by that?
A. At that point, you know, usually it's Michael Williams would call and say "can you talk to
Michael?" or whatever, and it was whoever was working with him. So it was surprising to me
that it was just him, and that kind of set me back.
Q. And before we get into that conversation, whenever a new name comes up, I want to make
sure I know. Who is Michael Williams?
A. He was Michael's assistant.
Q. I think there will be later e-mails that will make it easier. Does he sometimes go by Michael
Amir Williams?
A. Yes.
Q. And sometimes does he go by the name of brother Michael?
A. Yes.
Q. So in this instance you got this call when you were in Hyde Park from Mr. Jackson directly.
Did you talk to him?
A. Yeah. We talked for quite a while.
Q. What did you talk about?
A. Well, he started asking me about the tour, what are we going to do. And then I was asking him
questions. And I said, "OK. Who do you want as A. Director?" and he said Kenny, and just
started talking about he just talked about generally about ideas And stuff. And he said asking me
what are we going to do and how are we going to do this? So I told him that what I wanted to do
was get together all of the latest gags and effects and put together A. Demonstration for him so
he could see them, you know, just as a starting point, so he could see all the latest stuff. And he
said he would. And then I made him promise me that he would go if I set it up. And he said he
would. And so when we got back to L.A., I set up I set up a demonstration at Sony studios with
do you want to know what the gags were?
Q. Sure.
A. OK.
Q. Well, let me ask you a question. You keep saying "gags," and I usually think of a gag like a
Joke. What do you mean by "gags"?
A. Oh, I think it's show-biz slang. It's like a special effect or something in the show. It's you
know, that's it's like an effect or something.
Q. And in your History with Mr. Jackson, did he like gags?
A. Oh, yeah.
Q. Like special effects?
A. He did.
Q. All right. And you talked about this during this conversation?

A. Yes.
Q. And you also indicated that during this conversation, he indicated that he wanted Kenny
Ortega on as the director?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you know at that point who Kenny Ortega was?
A. Oh, yeah.
Q. Why?
A. He'd worked with Michael in the past.

Q. Had you?
A. Had I what?
Q. Had you worked with him in the past? I'm sorry.
A. Kenny?
Q. Uh-huh.
A. I think just with Michael.
Q. So when you worked with Michael, Kenny Ortega had worked with him, as well?
A. Yes.
Q. OK. Do you know if Kenny Ortega had been on the "Dangerous" tour?
A. I think he did initially do some work on the "Dangerous" tour, yes.
Q. And what about on the "History " tour?
A. Yes, I think at the beginning, he did.
Q. Did it worry you that Mr. Jackson wanted Kenny Ortega on tour with him again?
A. No. I thought it was great. Kenny is an extraordinary talent.
Q. Had you had somebody different in mind that you wanted to be the director?
A. No. That's not up to me, it's up to the artist.
Q. What do you mean?
A. Well, that's the creative part of the show. That's - and I don't really get into that part of it, you
know, creating the show. That's for the director and especially for the artist to decide.
Q. And you also said that if you set up this demonstration of the new gags, I think you called
them, you wanted him to promise that he would show up. Why did you say that?
A. Well, because I wanted to make sure if I was going to do all that, that he would go.
Q. Did you have any worries that he wouldn't show up?
A. I just wanted to make sure.
Q. OK. Did you ultimately set up that meeting?
A. Yes.
Q. And so you're in Hyde Park in London when this happens Where was Mr. Jackson at this
time, if you know?
A. He was back in L.A.
Q. So he called you from L.A. Do you remember what time of day you were in Hyde Park?
A. It was daylight out. I don't remember
Q. OK. And did you at some point thereafter return to Los Angeles?
A. Yes.
Q. And did you set up this meeting?

A. Demonstration.
Q. Sorry. Demonstration?
A. Yes.
Q. Anybody assist you with that?
A. Sure, Bugzee.
Q. When you say, "sure, Bugzee," why do you say, "sure, Bugzee"?
A. Because he was the production manager.
Q. And what does a production manager do?
A. Handles the production, is responsible for the production.
Mr. Putnam: can I see exhibit 3819. May I approach, your honor?
Judge: yes.
Mr. Putnam: take a moment, look at that, if you would. Any objections?
Mr. Panish: no. I said no. You already put it up. No problem. Go ahead.
Q. By Mr. Putnam. Mr. Gongaware, what I'm showing you is a series of e-mails. You'll see the
one on the bottom is says "Paul," and "from Bugzee." the next one seems the "re" line is from
Paul Gongaware to Michael Amir, with a c.c. To randy Phillips; and the one after that is to
Arlyne Lewiston from Paul Gongaware. Do you see that series?
A. Yes.
Q. Do you remember this e-mail?
A. No.
Q. OK. Do you have any doubt that you sent it?
A. No, I'm sure I did.
Q. Do you have any doubt that you received it?
A. No. I got it.
Q. That is your e-mail address there?
A. Yes.
Q. Let's look at the first one on the bottom. It says "Paul, the studio has granted me the use of a
private entrance for M.J., bypassing security. Gate 6 near the number 4 at the top of the
Attached map is an unmanned security gate. They will post a guy there when we know the
approximate time of arrival. They will need to call ahead. I recommend this, as the lines at the
security entrance can be long. Bugz." Do you see that?
A. Yes.
Q. And then above, in response, it says, from Paul Gongaware to Michael Amir I think it says 6,
and c.c. Randy Phillips and I think you just told me this, but I wanted to make sure. Do you have
an understanding as to who Michael Amir is?
A. That's Michael Amir Williams, Michael's assistant.
Q. It says "brother Michael." do you have an understanding as to why he was called brother
Michael?
A. No.
Q. Do you know if he was Mr. Jackson's brother?
A. He wasn't his brother.

Q. OK. "Randy asked me to send this through you to m.j. Today is our special effects demo for
the tour. It is at Sony studios, stage 9. Michael is aware of this. We have MJ. Scheduled for
4:00 p.m. Today we will be reviewing 3d on a LED. Screen, which has never been done before.
"we have a pyro demonstration on a new type of flame, and a laser demo. Kenny Ortega will
be there, as well. We have a special entrance at Sony studios set up for MJ See below. My
USA. Cell number is," redacted. "Please let me know the plan when you know it. Thanks for
your help. Paul Gongaware." did I read that right?

A. Yes.
Q. And then above, to Arlyne and who is Arlyne again?
A. Randy's assistant.
Q. And it says "done." do you see that?
A. Yes.
Q. Do you know as you sit here today, or have a belief as you sit here today as to what this series
of e-mails was about?
A. This is about the demonstration we were talking about.
Q. All right. So this is on March 16th, 2009?
A. Yes.
Q. And did you, in fact, have a demonstration of new gags with Mr. Jackson?
A. Yes.
Q. And who do you recall being at that meeting, if you do?
A. Bugzee and I were there, and Michael came in with Kenny Ortega and or Kenny might have
been there before. I don't know if he came with him. And then Lavelle smith was a
choreographer.
Q. Say that again? Lavelle smith?
A. Yes.
Q. Did Mr. Smith come with Mr. Jackson?
A. He may have.
Q. So it was the five of you. Do you remember anyone else being there?
A. Well, there was some techs there that were doing A. Demonstration.
Q. And it says this is at Sony studios, stage 9. Why would you have a demonstration there?
A. We needed enough room to to show off these gags.
Q. And you talked about the LED Screen. Did you ultimately have an LED. Screen in 3d as part
of the demonstration?
A. Yes.
Q. And you talk about a pyro demonstration. What is that?
A. Pyrotechnics. It involved flames, and this demonstration was more specific to there was a new
colored flame that was that we could use, and there were computer-controlled I guess you'd
call them flame pots or flame you know, that you Could actually make flames move, dance.
Mr. Putnam: I'm going to show you a clip from the movie, which is exhibit 12927, which is
already into evidence. For the purposes of this, I'll call it the pyro demonstration.
Judge: can we turn off the light?
(a video recording was played.)

Q. By Mr. Putnam: now, is this what we're Talking about in terms of pyro demonstrations?
A. Yeah. It was a much smaller demonstration than that, but yes.
Q. And were these the type of effects that were going to be used in the "This Is It" tour?
A. Well, they were deciding whether they wanted to, and we were showing it to them so they
could decide whether they wanted them or not.
Q. Do you remember Mr. Jackson's reactions to the pyro demonstrations that you provided?
A. Yeah. He loved it.
Q. Now, obviously, there's been some testimony, and you've given us some, as well, about the
fact that Mr. Jackson had had a horrible accident with a prior pyro gag where he burned his scalp.
Did that make him, to your understanding, at all worried about ever doing pyro demonstrations?
A. I don't think so. He to me, he loved it.
Q. You also reference a laser demo in this. What do you mean by that?
A. Lasers used to be you used to have to have water cooling to them with hoses and all this stuff.
And they invented the new 20-watt white-light laser that you could actually run through prisms
and get all sorts of colors out of it. It was like it was spectacular.
Q. And did you, in fact, have a laser demonstration?
A. Yeah.
Q. And what was Mr. Jackson's reaction to those?
A. He loved it. That stuff is brilliant.
Q. Were you going to use any of those in the "This Is It" show?
A. Yes.
Q. Who decided that you were going to use A. Certain laser as opposed to another?
A. Michael and Kenny would decide what they wanted for the gag; and then we would go and
research it and try to figure out the best thing to use based on, you know, how much room we had
in the production for whatever the gag was and also for you know, for cost factors.
Q. And then once you went and came up with what might meet their creative needs, did you
show it to them?
A. Yes, usually.
Q. And were there ever times you showed them something they said, "no, that's not what we
want"?
A. There was a there was a gag in the demonstration that they chose not to use.
Q. What was that?
A. It was like a it was like a waterfall, and it was computer controlled, these drips of water, so
you could actually as the water fell, you could do pictures on it, and you could put words on it as
it fell through. It was pretty cool.
Q. And would you have liked to use that?
A. No. It was pretty messy.
Q. It was messy?
A. Yeah.
Q. All right. And so ultimately when you guys looked at this, you decided not to go forward with
that?
A. Right.

Q. Now, this is on March 16th, 2009, people are present. How did Mr. Jackson seem to you?
A. He was great.
Q. Describe what you mean by that.
A. He was really engaged as he saw the the effects and all the gags and stuff, he got really
excited.
Q. And why do you say that he was excited? How did he demonstrate that to you?
A. Just his enthusiasm for things that were going on like that.
Q. Did you have any concerns about Mr. Jackson's health at this point?
A. No.
Q. It's March 16th. Did you have any concerns at this point that Mr. Jackson might again be
using prescription drugs?
A. No.
Q. Did he seem slow or lethargic to you at this point?
A. Oh, no.
Q. Was he talkative?
A. Yeah, he was.
Q. Now, how long was this demonstration, if you know?
A. Might have been an hour.
Mr. Putnam: now, I'm going to show you another exhibit. This one is 3953. May I
approach, your honor?
Judge: yes.
Mr. Putnam: any objection to this, Mr. Panish?
Mr. Panish: no.
Mr. Putnam: I'll show you now, again, this is a series of e-mails. You see the first one on the
bottom seems to be from Paul Gongaware, the subject is "meeting tomorrow." this time it says to
Michael Williams, Michael Amir; and then the one above that would appear to be Michael
Williams responding; and then above that is one to Michael Williams from Paul Gongaware.
Q. Do you see that series?
A. Yes.
Q. And the first date in that series is March 16th, 2009. Do you see that?
A. Yeah.
Q. I'm going to ask you the question I was ask- do you recognize this e-mail?
A. No.
Q. Do you recognize this series of e-mails?
A. No.
Q. All right. Is that your e-mail address
A. Yes.
Q. Do you have any reason to believe that you didn't send this e-mail?
A. No, I don't.
Mr. Boyle: I'm going to object, your honor. There's no e-mail address on here.
Mr. Panish: for him to recognize.
Mr. Boyle: they're all redacted.
Mr. Putnam: we removed the personal ones, if you recall, your honor.

Mr. Boyle: how can he see it, then?

Mr. Putnam: they received them, your honor.
Mr. Panish: how do we know that?
Mr. Putnam: I'll provide you with different copies, ones where the actual e-mail addresses
are there. Let me move on from there, if I can.
Q. Do you recall this meeting, sir?. Do you recall the idea of asking let me read it. "one thing I
forgot to mention. The meeting tomorrow at 3:00 p.m. should be with MJ. And Kenny Ortega
only. They need to find their creative path before including anyone else, so no Lavelle, no
Lopez, no randy, no Tohme, please. "MJ will confirm this to you. I'm counting on you to
make this happen since I won't be there. Let me know if you sense a problem. Good meeting
you today. Thanks for all your help. Paul g." do you see that?
A. Yes.
Q. The date is March 16?
A. Yes.
Q. And a moment ago we saw that the pyro or the gag demonstration was march 16th. Do you
remember that?
A. Yes.
Q. All right. In looking at this, can you recall whether Michael Amir was also at the
demonstration at Sony studios?
A. I don't remember.
Q. You don't remember. Do you remember before the "This Is It" Tour, had you ever met Michael
Amir Williams before?
A. I don't think so.
Q. OK. And did a time come on the "This Is It" tour where you did meet him for your
preparations?
A. Sure.
Q. OK. And you'll see it says "so no Lavelle," L-a-v-e-l-l-e, there. Do you see that?
A. Yes.
Q. Is that the man you were talking about before that you said was at the demonstration at Sony
studios?
A. Yeah, he showed up. I don't know who brought him.
Q. Again, what did he do, if you know?
A. He was a choreographer on a past tour.
Q. And is that a past tour with Mr. Jackson?
A. Yes.
Q. Had did you have an understanding at this point whether Mr. Jackson was considering him as
the choreographer for this tour?
A. I didn't know if he was or not. I thought that would be a decision between he and Kenny.
Q. And it says "no Lopez." do you have an understanding as to who that is?
A. That's Peter Lopez, the lawyer.
Q. "no Randy"?
A. Right, "no Randy."
Q. "no Tohme"?

A. Right.
Q. That's his manager?
A. Yeah.
Q. Now, it says about a meeting "tomorrow, it should be MJ. And Kenny Ortega only." as you
sit here today, do you have an understanding as to why you would tell them that this should be a
meeting only between Michael Jackson and Kenny Ortega and that none of these other people
should be involved?
A. I think it's kind of self-explanatory. They needed to figure this out, start just between the two
of them figuring this out.
Q. Well, why wouldn't you want randy Phillips there if they're trying to figure this out?
A. He's not a creative person.
Q. Were you going to be there?
A. No.
Q. Lavelle is a creative person, is he not? He's a choreographer?
A. Yeah, but I I think with Lavelle, Kenny didn't want him there.
Q. Why do you believe that?
A. He wanted to decide who he was going to use with Michael.
Q. And as you sit here today, is there A. Reason why you personally would want there to be A.
Meeting that was only between Kenny Ortega and Michael Jackson?
A. Yeah. They were the two creative forces.
Q. And did a time come in mid-march where Kenny Ortega and Michael Jackson started meeting
and having creative meetings so they could decide what the tour was going to be?
A. Yes.
Q. Where did they meet, if you know?
A. The times they met at Michael's house, times they met at Center Staging in the early parts.
Q. And when they met, would they sometimes meet alone, just the two of them?

Mr. Panish: objection; there's no foundation.
Judge: sustained.
Q. By Mr. Putnam: do you have an understanding as to whether they would ever meet by
themselves?
Mr. Panish: same objection, foundation.
Judge: sustained.
Q. By Mr. Putnam: were there ever times when you came to Center Staging and discovered and
found that Mr. Jackson and Kenny Ortega were meeting by themselves?
A. Yeah, they in the early parts, they were there every day.
Q. And did they ever invite anyone to join them?
A. I don't remember.
Q. Were you ever asked to join them?
A. When it was just the two of them creating, no.
Q. To your understanding, did they ever have creative meetings were other people other than just
the two of them?

A. Yeah, I think they included other people when they wanted them.
Q. Were you ever pulled in?
A. With Michael and Kenny? I don't recall.
Q. OK. And you noted a bit ago that Mr. Ortega would let you know about certain gags that they
or certain creative elements that they wanted, and you would go up and decide how to put those
together, correct?
A. Try to figure it out, yeah.
Q. Where did those where did that occur?
A. Usually Center Staging.
Q. I want to talk about this real quickly, if I can. Kenny Ortega, what was his role on the "This Is
It" tour?
A. He was the co-creator of the show, and he was the director of the show, although in the
credits, I think, for the show, it was Michael and Kenny were the co-directors and they were also
the co-creators.
Q. So in each of those instances, co-creator and co-director of the show, who is the other person,
the other "co"?
A. Michael and Kenny.
Q. So it's Michael Jackson and Kenny Ortega?
A. Yes.
Q. And in terms of the first, the creative director, what does that mean to you? What is A.
Creative director of a show?
A. The director is the director of the show is responsible for the creative elements in the show.
Q. And what does that mean to you
A. What the songs would be I mean working with the artist, of course, the songs, how they
would be staged, how the how the dance would how you know, how the dancers would be
engaged in any particular song, how the show how the if there were any special lighting effects
that they were thinking of, or any special staging effects, any special gags, and how they would
work, how they would look, and just the overall show itself from beginning to end.
Q. And I've heard of a director for a movie before, but is there a difference in your mind between
what a director on a movie does and a director on A. Tour?
A. Pretty similar.

Judge: Mr. Putnam, are you going to get into a new area?
Mr. Putnam: no. Two more quick questions, I'll Be done.
Q. Is Michael Jackson's health part of the creative portion of the show?
A. No.
Q. And you testified yesterday that Kenny Ortega took it upon himself to monitor Michael
Jackson's health. Was he doing that as part of his job on the tour?
A. That's what he was doing. He was doing that. It wasn't like anything was specified, "you have
to," you know, "monitor his health." that's just how Kenny took it on.
Q. And did you ask him to do that?
A. No.
Q. Are you aware of anybody asking him to do that?

A. No.
Q. Did anyone at A.E.G. Live ever tell you that they were going to ask Kenny to do that?
A. No.
Q. Did Kenny Ortega ever tell you that someone had asked him to do that?
A. No.
Q. What was your understanding as to why Kenny Ortega would do that?
A. They were friends, they you know, they worked together.

Mr. Putnam: all right, your honor.
This Session was half day only