JACKSON V AEGLIVE June 13

th
2013
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Brandon Randy Phillips
(CEO of AEG Live)
Plaintiffs Adverse Witness.
Continued cross examination by Marvin Putnam:
Q. Good morning, Mr. Phillips.
A. Good morning, Mr. Putnam.
Q. How are you doing?

A. Better than I was yesterday. I was a little tired.

Q. Okay. Starting where we were yesterday, then, you remember we were discussing some of a
series of emails that were -- had a "re" line of "trouble at the Front"? Do you remember that?
A. Yes.
Q. Okay. So it's the evening of June 19th, 2009. I'm going to go back to one of those email
chains, do you recognize that, sir?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, you've been asked some questions about this already by Mr. Panish. I want to focus on
asking in particular, which is in the next to last email here, which is the one from Bugzee
Hougdahl to you that evening, June 19th at -- it says 10:57:03. It's the one that goes "My
layman's degree." it says there in the second line "I've watched him deteriorate in front of my
eyes over the last eight weeks," and he goes on to say he was able to do multiple 360 spins back
in April. Do you see that, sir?
A. Yes, I do.
Q. Now, a couple of questions about that. Do you know what a 360 spin is?
A. Yes.
Q. What is that?
A. That's when a dancer actually does a complete circle, like a complete circle while on one foot.
Q. And -- and did you know what Mr. Hougdahl meant when he said "I have watched him
deteriorate in front of my eyes over the last eight weeks"?
A. No.
Q. On your personal observations, had you watched Mr. Jackson deteriorate over the last eight
weeks?
A. No, I hadn't.
Q. Had you watched him deteriorate at all?
A. No.
Q. Now, despite the fact that you hadn't seen him deteriorate, were you concerned as a result of

this chain of emails?

A. Absolutely.
Q. Now I also want to focus on another thing that he says here. He says -- get it correctly -- "My
laymen's degree tells me he needs a shrink to get him mentally prepared to get onstage." Do
you see that?
A. Yes.
Q. At that point in time, prior to receiving this email, at least, had you ever thought that Mr.
Jackson might need psychological help in some way?
A. Never.
Q. At that point in time, I think you mentioned two doctors you were aware of. One was Dr.
Conrad Murray, correct?
A. Correct.
Q. And you said you had some understanding of a Dr. Arnold Klein, correct?
A. Correct.
Q. Did you know any other doctor that Mr. Jackson was seeing at the time?
A. No.
Q. Had he discussed any other doctor with you ever?
A. No.
Q. Do you have any understanding -- or strike that. Did you have any understanding as of June
19th, 2009, whether Mr. Michael Jackson was seeing a psychologist or psychiatrist?
A. No.
Q. So you don't know either way?
A. No.
Q. Did you think he needed one?
A. No, not at all.

Q. Let me go back to this "deteriorated over eight weeks." I'd like to show you a clip called the
Billie Jean clip, and it's from an already entered exhibit. It's the movie, which is exhibit 12927.
Okay, Mr. Panish?
(Putnam plays video clip from This Is It)
Mr. Putnam: I pause for one second to ask a question, show you the rest of it.
Q. The man who's talking to Mr. Jackson right there, he has his hands up, who is that?
A. That's Kenny Ortega, the director of the show.
Mr. Putnam: Okay. Continue.
(Putnam plays video clip from This Is It again)
Q. Those spins you just saw, what were those?
A. 360's.
Q. All right. So we've seen two so far, right?
A. Correct.
Mr. Putnam: All right. Continue.
(Putnam continues to play video clip from This Is It)
Q. Sir, do you recognize where that is?
A. Yeah. That's at the Forum.
Q. So this is at some point during rehearsals at the Forum?
A. That is correct.
Q. And those rehearsals at the Forum, they began the beginning of June; is that correct?

A. Correct. They loaded in at the Forum I think June 1st, and then they were there the month of
June.
Q. Okay. And Mr. Jackson died when, sir?
A. He died June 25th.
Q. And what is the date of these emails? It's the 19th?
A. That is correct.
Q. All right. So when Mr. Hougdahl talks about the idea that Mr. Jackson has been deteriorating
over the last eight weeks, and he couldn't do a 360 now if he tried, at least as of this point in
June, would you say that's true?
Mr. Panish: I'm going to object to misstating the email on the 360. He doesn't say he
couldn't do a 360. It says multiple 360.
Judge: Overruled. He may ask whatever question he wants concerning 360's.
Q. Was there more than one 360 in that, sir?
A. Yes, there were.
Q. Were there multiple 360's?
A. There were multiple 360's.
Q. So at least at this point, do you think Mr. Jackson could do multiple 360's at rehearsal?
A. Absolutely.
Q. And was this a dress rehearsal?
A. Yes.
Q. Okay.
A. No, no. It wasn't a dress rehearsal, it was just a regular rehearsal.
Q. Is that like a walk-through?

A. Correct.
Q. So this is not a full-blown production, correct?
A. No, not at all.
Q. The -- how old was Mr. Jackson?
A. Mr. Jackson I believe was 50 years old when he did this rehearsal.
Q. Okay.
A. And I remember watching the 20-year-old-ish dancers flipping out for what he could do, the
fluidity of his movement.
Q. All right. And that doesn't mean that Mr. Jackson didn't have a bad rehearsal on the 19th, does
it?
A. No.
Q. That doesn't mean that there weren't serious concerns on the 19th?
A. Not at all, no.
Q. And when you received these emails, were you concerned?
A. Very.
Q. And I want to go -- ask you a question. It's a hypothetical, sir. And it's a hypothetical based on
the email. If Mr. Jackson had actually needed psychiatric help in some measure, did you have
any understanding that it was your job to secure that for him?
A. No, no, not in the least bit.
Q. Would you -- would you have believed it was your job to secure him psychological or
psychiatric help?
A. No.
Q. All right. I want to ask you about a couple of people that we've talked about before. Remind
us, who is Frank Dileo?
A. Frank Dileo was the person -- he was Michael's original manager during the height of his
career. He used to be the head of promotion at epic records. He actually broke Michael's first

records, and Michael brought him back to be part of his management team.
Q. And was he part of his management team in June 2009?
A. Yes, he was.
Q. Joan Branca, who is that?
A. John Branca was Michael's attorney during the heyday of his career, and then Michael
brought him back towards sometime in June to be his -- one of his attorneys.
Q. At least at some point in June 2009, Mr. Branca was back on board as an attorney for Mr.
Jackson?
A. That's correct; and today he's the executor of the Estate, yes.
Q. And is he part of the management team at this point in 2009 for Mr. Jackson?
A. Yes.
Q. Who is Michael Kane?
A. Michael Kane is a business manager that became -- he became Michael's business manager. I
think he still represents Katherine and the family, and he was brought in -- my understanding is
he was brought in by Frank Dileo.
Q. So is he part of Mr. Jackson's management team in June 2009?
A. Yes.
Q. And who is Joel Katz?
A. Joel Katz is an attorney who was also part of Michael's management team. He was brought in
by Dr. Tohme originally on the Bahrainian lawsuit. I think he also represents Jermaine Jackson,
or did at the time.
Q. And in June 2009, was he part of Mr. Jackson's management team?
A. That is correct.
Q. Now, Mr. Katz had previously done some work not for AEG Live, but for AEG, correct?
A. That is correct.
Q. In June 2009, were any of these people working for AEG Live?

A. No.
Q. In June 2009, who did they work for?
A. They worked for Michael Jackson.
Q. Okay. So June 19th, 2009, you received this email, "trouble at the Front," indicating Mr.
Jackson had a bad day. Did you tell anyone from Mr. Jackson's management team that he was
having a bad day?
A. Well, I did more than tell them, I actually forwarded all of the emails I received to his
management team.
Q. Why did you do that?
A. Because I think I would have been remiss having received that information and not imparting
it to the people who were closest to him.
Q. And, in fact, didn't we learn yesterday or the day before you did the same thing when
someone on your team had voiced concerns about this Dr. Tohme?
A. That is correct. That is correct.
Mr. Putnam: Okay. Could I show exhibit 13405? Any objection, Mr. Panish?
Mr. Panish: Which one is that? Is it that the new one you just gave me?
Mr. Putnam: Yes.
A. Mr. Putnam, just to clarify, in that case of the Dr. Tohme issue from Kathy Jorrie, I forwarded
that to Peter Lopez, who was functioning as Michael's attorney at the time.
Q. Because these people weren't in place at the time, right?
A. That's correct.
Q. Do you recognize this email, sir?
A. Yes, I do.
Q. So -- so the bottom email, the one that's the 10:00 o'clock, 10:14:22 on the night of Friday,
June 19th, that's the original "trouble at the Front" email that you received, correct?

A. That is correct.
Q. Can you see what the email is above it?
A. Yes. The one above it is my forwarding of this email to Michael Jackson's inner circle, his
team.
Q. Okay. So let's go through that. F.M. Dileo, who is that?
A. That's Frank Dileo.
Q. And that's his manager?
A. Manager at the time.
Q. And Michael Kane, who is that?
A. That's his business manager.
Q. johnb@ziffrenlaw.Com?
A. That's John Branca, one of his attorneys.
Q. And katzj@gtlaw.Com?
A. That's his other attorney.
Q. What do you say here?
A. I say "We have a real problem here."
Q. That's akin to what you said to Tim Leiweke, is it not?
A. That is correct.
Q. So you informed Mr. Jackson's management team by forwarding this email on to them that it
looked like there was a problem on the evening of June 19th?
A. That is correct, I did.
Q. And why did you do that, sir?
A. Well, one thing, Mr. Putnam. The forward was in the morning of the 20th, June 20th.
Q. All right. And why did you forward it on?

A. Because I thought it was essential that they get this information and understand what the
production manager was saying, and that everybody had the information. I wanted to be
completely transparent with his team.
Q. Now, again, if you look at this series of emails -- sorry. Make sure I have it in front of me.
All right, so, again, at the bottom here of this series of emails, this is -- at the bottom is the
original one, the "trouble at the Front."
A. Correct.
Q. You see that? And we went over previously, as did Mr. Panish, this series of emails on to
Bugzee and everyone else. You see it, correct?
A. Yes.
Q. At the very top of this, you'll see these are the ones that talk about pyro demonstration, the
one that says the chemical or physiological, the followup on 360. That has that whole chain
there, correct?
A. Correct.
Q. Let's go to the top of that, if we can. Who did you forward this to?
A. I forwarded this to Tim Leiweke, Paul Gongaware and then Michael's inner circle.
Q. So, again, this whole chain, you also forwarded to Mr. Jackson's management team, correct?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. Why did you do that?
A. Because I wanted everybody to be in the loop as to the information I was getting. I wasn't
withholding anything, I wanted them to know exactly what was happening at the time.
Q. And that one which you discussed earlier, I just want to note, it says "Unfortunately, we are
running out of time. That is my biggest fear." Do you recall as you sit here today why you wrote
"That is my biggest fear"?
A. Yes.
Q. And why is that, sir?
A. That is in response to a previous email from Kenny Ortega where he said that every rehearsal
that Michael misses puts him a day behind in terms of getting him ready in terms of the July 19th

opening; so every time we lost a rehearsal, it meant less time he had to finish the production.
Q. Does that have anything to do with a sense that you might have that Mr. Jackson might have a
substance abuse problem?
A. No.
Q. Does it have anything to do with your fear that he might have a psychological problem?
A. No.
Q. Some health problem?
A. I didn't know what the problem was.
Q. Now, Mr. Jackson ever suggest to you that he wasn't ready to perform?
A. Not at all.
Q. Did he ever tell you that he didn't want to perform?
A. Absolutely not.
Q. Now, had he done so, had he said to you, "I'm not ready," do you have any idea what you
would have done?
Mr. Panish: Excuse me, your honor. This is on that subject that we were not allowed to --
we might have to do a sidebar.
Mr. Putnam: I don't want a sidebar. I'll strike the question, your honor.
Mr. Panish: Because they moved --
Judge: Okay. All right. He's withdrawing it.
Mr. Putnam: Sure. I'll show a couple more emails you've been asked about, sir.
Q. You remember there was also a series involved in this from Mr. Ortega, correct?
A. Correct.
Q. Once again, as with the other series and chains, it begins with Mr. Hougdahl's email, the

One -- "not being a drama queen" email. Do you remember that?

A. Yes.
Q. And this is the one that goes through and talks about having a real problem and whatnot that
you sent to Mr. Leiweke?
A. Correct.
Q. And ultimately, you forwarded that on to Kenny, if you recall, because you were talking about
The idea originally of having a meeting between Mr. Ortega and Mr. Leiweke and yourself. Do
you recall that?
A. And Mr. Jackson, yes.
Q. Thank you. I keep forgetting to say that. Here we have the new one, which is on June 20th.
That's the one that we had some time issues before because it's 2:04 in the morning on this one,
and there are others with different times. Do you remember this?
A. Yes.
Q. I'm not going to go through the whole thing again, but I want to ask you something. Did you
take this seriously?
A. Of course.
Q. Was there any point in this -- when you're receiving this series of emails you were like, "I'm
not taking this seriously"?
A. No.
Q. Your concern was real and ongoing at this time?
A. Absolutely.
Q. And this is the night of June 19th and the morning of June 20th, correct?
A. That is correct.
Q. I want to ask you a couple of questions in here. Mr. Ortega says "It would shatter him, break
his heart if we pulled the plug." Do you remember being asked about that?
A. Yes, I do.

Q. Let me ask you very specifically. As of that time -- let's say it's Saturday, June 20th, 2:04 in
the morning, since we're not sure exactly what time it was, take the time on this version -- had
you ever said to anyone that you would pull the plug?
A. No.
Q. Had you had that discussion with anyone?
A. No -- no, I hadn't, nor would we have had the right to.
Q. And why wouldn't you have the right to?
A. Because there was -- Michael's only obligation was to show up and perform a class-a show on
the first day of the opening of This Is It.
Q. And so did anyone say to you that they thought you should pull the plug?
A. No.
Q. So this "pull the plug" term, do you know where he came up with that from, with that idea?
Mr. Ortega, that is.
A. No. I mean, it's a figure of speech to end something; but I'm not sure where he -- he got it. I've
used it before.
Q. Okay. Now, in this email where Mr. Ortega goes to some length about things about pulling the
plug and everything else -- you see that's the one he talks about the idea of a strong therapist,
immediate physical nurturing, and the like. Do you remember that series of questions?
A. Correct.
Q. Without going through all of it again, I have a question for you. Did you forward this on to
somebody?
A. Yes; I forwarded it onto Tim Leiweke, Paul Gongaware and Joel Katz, John Branca, Frank
Dileo and Michael Kane.
Q. So, again Katz, Branca, Dileo, Kane. So, again, you forwarded this on to Mr. Jackson's
management team, correct?
A. That is correct.
Q. And this is all, again, with a span of less than 24 hours?
A. Correct, correct.

Q. Now, I want to ask you a question with Mr. Branca's response.You indicated that Mr. Branca
had worked with Mr. Jackson during his heyday; is that correct?
A. Extensively, yes.
Q. And he was now working with him again, correct?
A. That is correct.
Q. Can you say in terms of decades the length of their relationship?
A. For sure decades, yes.
Q. Let's look at his response. "I have the right therapist/spiritual advisor/substance abuse
counselor who could help, recently helped Mike Tyson get sober and paroled," dot, dot, dot.
"Do we know whether there is a substance issue involved? Perhaps better discussed on the
phone." Do you see that?
A. Yes.
Q. Do you recall any of your emails, any of them, where you've said that you think there might
be a substance abuse problem?
A. They do not exist.
Q. So do you have an idea of why Mr. Branca, his attorney of long time, mentioned that
inquired whether there is a substance issue involved?
A. I don't -- no, I don't know why he inquired. He inquired, but I don't know why.
Q. He indicates then "perhaps better discussed on the phone"?
A. Uh-huh, correct.
Q. Were you ever involved in a discussion with Mr. Branca on -- as a result of this about Mr.
Jackson and potential issues at hand?
A. I don't remember if we ever had a phone conversation or a conversation other than these
emails.
Q. Do you have any understanding as to whether Mr. Jackson's management team had a phone
conversation where they discussed a therapist, spiritual advisor or substance abuse counselor?
A. I -- I don't have knowledge of it because I wouldn't have been on that call if it was between

them.
Q. So as far as you know, whether a subsequent phone call took place with this team is just
something you've never heard?
A. I've never heard, no.
Mr. Panish: Objection; there's no foundation.
Judge: Overruled. He's never heard it.
Mr. Panish: He doesn't know either way.
Mr. Putnam: Okay.
Phillips: That's what I said.
Mr. Panish: Can I move on to some others, if I can, sir? I want to ask briefly about Mr. Jackson's
rehearsal attendance. All right? You testified the other day that you were concerned when he
would miss rehearsals, and there was an email that said there might be an anticipatory breach.
Q. Do you remember --
A. I remember misusing that term, yes.
Q. Let me ask you a question. Are you a lawyer?
A. No.
Q. Did you graduate from law school?
A. No, I didn't.
Q. Did you ever take the bar?
A. No.
Q. Did you ever practice a day in your life?
A. No.
Q. Do you have any idea what the legal meaning is of "anticipatory breach"?

A. No, I don't. I just know I misused it in --

Q. So let me ask you about the specifics of the testimony as opposed to legally what it means. All
right?
A. Okay.
Q. Do you have an understanding that coming to rehearsals was a term in any agreement that you
have ever had with any artist to perform concerts?
A. There is -- to the best of my knowledge, there isn't a tour agreement that we've ever done
where coming to -- for an artist coming to their own rehearsals was ever a requirement of that
contract.
Q. Why not?
A. Because the only requirement the artist has is to deliver a first-class show.
Q. And if one doesn't deliver a first-class show, what happens then?
A. Well, if -- if we've sold out all the tickets, it doesn't really matter to us. I mean, it should, but it
doesn't really matter financially to us because we already have the money. The impact of it would
be on future shows that that artist was doing because people would be dissatisfied, feel they
didn't get their money worth on the show they went to.
Q. Have you ever worked on a show where an artist hasn't rehearsed at all prior to the show?
A. Yes.
Q. More than once?
A. Well, there's one big one I know.
Q. All right. What's that?
A. Enrique Iglesias.
Q. So he never showed up for rehearsals ever?
A. Not on the tour I did, the last tour I did with him, no.
Q. Did that concern you?
A. Well, I thought it was odd, but he he showed up in Boston and did an incredible show and

got great reviews, so --

Q. All right. In your opinion, not legally, but using the term that you used, was Mr. Iglesias in
some way in breach of his agreement because he didn't rehearse prior to putting on that first-class
show?
Mr. Panish: I'm going to object on breach, since he just told us he doesn't know anything
about that.
Judge: Sustained.
Mr. Putnam: I'm asking in terms of what he talked about in terms of his understanding of
anticipatory breach.
Judge: Sustained.
Mr. Panish: He either knows or he doesn't.
Q. Did you expect Mr. Jackson to attend rehearsals?
A. I did, yes.
Q. And why did you expect him to attend rehearsals?
A. Because he hadn't been on the stage in over 12 years; and as any -- as anything that involves
Michael Jackson, this production was the biggest, the best, the greatest the world has ever seen.
Q. Did Mr. Jackson ever tell you that he didn't want to go to rehearsals?
A. No.
Q. Okay.
A. Well, I should qualify that. In the meeting on the 20th when he and Kenny discussed
rehearsals, he said that he did not need -- that he's been doing this choreography his whole life,
he didn't need to go to rehearsals, as much as Kenny would have liked for him to have gone to
rehearsal.
Q. We haven't got there yet. When we get there yet, we can talk about what happened on the
20th?
A. I know, but I'll be very careful about what I say when I say the word "never," so --

Q. Okay. Would you have cancelled the This Is It shows if Mr. Jackson didn't go to rehearsals?
A. No, I would not.
Q. Did you ever tell Mr. Jackson that he was in breach of his contract?
A. No.
Q. Did you ever tell any of his management team that he was in breach of his contract?
A. No.
Q. So the 19th into the 20th, do you recall that there was some questions that were asked by Mr.
Panish about a phone call that you had with Dr. Conrad Murray?
A. Correct.
Q. Do you remember he showed you some phone records?
A. Yes.
Q. And from those phone records, do yo remember that there was a short outgoing call from
Conrad Murray to you on the 18th?
A. Yes.
Q. About a minute?
A. Correct.
Q. And then do you remember there was that longer call, outgoing from Conrad Murray to you,
on the 20th?
A. Correct.
Q. All right. Let's deal with the 18th first. Did you -- actually, before I ask that, did you see
anything in all those records that indicated that you had ever called Dr. Conrad Murray?
A. Well, in the four pages of phone records -- I think it was four pages that they showed me at
the deposition -- there were no other calls from me, but the ones I pointed out -- that were to me.
I never made a call -- I don't ever remember calling Conrad Murray.
Q. So you haven't seen anything that shows that you made a call to Conrad Murray, correct?
A. No.

Q. And do you recall making a call to Conrad Murray ever?

A. No.
Q. This 18th one that has about a minute on it in the record from Dr. Conrad Murray to you -- do
you recall ever speaking to Dr. Conrad Murray on the 18th?
A. No.
Q. Do you know whether he left you a message?
A. I just -- I don't remember.
Q. You just don't remember?
A. I don't remember.
Q. But you have testified that you did speak to him on the 20th before that meeting at carolwood,
right?
A. That is correct.
Mr. Putnam: Now, you testified the other day that you could not recall most of the
substance of the conversation you had with him on the 20th. I would like to approach, your
honor, and show part of his deposition, if I may, to refresh his recollection.
Judge: Okay.
Mr. Panish: He's got to first show he needs to have his recollection refreshed.
Judge: True.
Mr. Putnam: Okay. If it does.
Mr. Panish: Well, no, no. First he has to show that there's a need to refresh his recollection.
Judge: There's a lack of foundation.
Q. As I indicated, you indicated the other day that you cannot recall all the substance of your
phone call when Mr. Panish asked you about the phone conversation with Dr. Conrad Murray.
Do you remember that?

A. Yes.
Q. And at that time, this was an instance where you weren't shown what you had actually said in
your deposition; is that correct?
A. That is correct.
Q. Would it help refresh your recollection if I showed you what you actually said in your
deposition about the phone call on the 20th?
A. Yes, it would.
Mr. Putnam: May I approach, your honor?
Mr. Panish: What are you showing him?
Judge: Okay. You may.
Mr. Putnam: Did you want one, your honor?
Judge: That's all right.
Phillips: We could share it.
Judge: Thank you.
Mr. Putnam: And specifically what I would like to have you look at, sir -- this is your
deposition on the 17th, 2013, line 22 to 25, and going on to page 407, line 1 through 7.
Phillips: Okay. Do you want me to --
Judge: Read it to yourself.
Mr. Putnam: Just read it.
The witness: Okay.
Q. Have you had time to read it, sir?
A. Yes, I have.
Q. Does it help refresh your recollection as to a conversation -- a conversation you had with Dr.

Conrad Murray on the 20th?

A. Yes, it does.
Q. And what does it refresh your recollection, this, as to what was said?
Mr. Panish: Excuse me. What he said is fine. What Dr. Murray said is hearsay.
Mr. Putnam: It goes to his understanding, your honor.
Mr. Panish: No.
Judge: His understanding of what?
Mr. Putnam: His understanding as to what the relationship was between Dr. Conrad
Murray and his patient, Michael Jackson, and most importantly, what he understood Dr.
Murray believed Mr. Jackson's condition was as of that day.
Mr. Panish: That's not what that's dealing with.
Judge: Okay. Overruled. You may.
Mr. Putnam: All right.
Q. Did you think it was inappropriate for you to talk with Dr. Conrad Murray about
Mr. Michael Jackson?
A. No, no, given -- in light of the emails that Kenny had sent and John Hougdahl had sent, I felt
it was appropriate, actually. It would have been crazy if I didn't.
Q. And did you discuss Mr. Jackson's treatment with Dr. Conrad Murray at that time?
A. No.
Q. Did you discuss in any way what treatment he'd been providing to Mr. Jackson?
A. No.
Q. Did that conversation ever have any mention of substance abuse?
A. No.
Q. Did that conversation ever have any mention of prescription drugs?

A. Absolutely not.
Q. Did the word "propofol" come up in that conversation?
A. No.
Q. Do you recall at that time ever discussing whether or not Mr. Jackson needed to go to
rehearsals?
A. I don't remember if it happened in that conversation, no.
Q. As we sit here today, what can you recall about that conversation with Dr. Conrad Murray?
A. Basically, it was a resus- -- I don't wanted to say "resuscitation." It was a recantment of the
emails that -- a summary of the emails I received from both John and from Kenny.
Q. So he was recanting them, taking them back, or he was recounting them?
A. Recounting.
Mr. Putnam: Okay. I wasn't sure what you meant.
Mr. Panish: I'm sorry. Who was recounting? Dr. Murray?
Phillips: no, I was, to Dr. Murray.
Judge: I'm sorry. Can we clarify that? I'm a little confused.
Phillips: In a conversation with Dr. Murray, I was actually telling him the information I
had received from the rehearsals the night before vis--vis those emails. That was the --
Judge: Information meaning you were telling Dr. Murray what information you got from
Kenny Ortega and --
Phillips: John Hougdahl.
Judge: -- Hougdahl?
Phillips: Yes.
Judge: Okay.
Mr. Panish: All right.

Judge: But what does that have to do with recounting or --

Phillips: I used the word wrong.
Judge: Oh, you meant to say "recounting"?
Phillips: Right. Forget I said that.
Mr. Putnam: That's what I was trying to figure out.
Judge: I understand.
Phillips: I thought I would have the hang of sitting here after seven days. I don't.
Mr. Putnam: A week and a half.
Q. The -- how did you feel at the end of that conversation with Dr. Conrad Murray? Were you
more worried? Were you less worried? How did you feel?
A. Oh, I felt -- it was actually very confusing because on the one hand, I had the emails, which
were alarming, from both Kenny and from John Hougdahl, and then I had this very reassuring
call with Michael's personal physician, so I didn't know what was going on. But it was much
more -- it was very reassuring.
Q. And why was it reassuring?
A. Because he said Michael was fine, he wasn't sure what -- what the problem was at rehearsal, it
could have been the flu. That's where that came up. And that Michael was fine, and he was in
great health, and he was looking forward to doing these shows. And, in fact, he said if he didn't
do the shows, it would be very -- it would be detrimental to him because he was so looking
forward to doing them.
Q. So this is -- and that conversation takes place sometime on the 20th before your meeting at the
Carolwood house, right?
A. That is correct.
Q. So within 24 hours, we're getting these "trouble at the Front" emails; and those, you said,
really concerned you?
A. Right.
Q. And then after receiving these, you have a discussion with his personal physician, who says

not
So?
A. 14 hours.
Q. 14 hours?
A. Yes, 14 hours.
Q. Thank you. So did you have any idea what was going on at this point?
A. I was -- not a clue. I was very confused.
Q. And following that conversation, what did you do?
A. I believe I sent Kenny an email where I summarized the conversation with Dr. Murray; and
I'm not sure who else I might have sent emails to or spoken to, but I know I spent one to ken.
Q. And, in fact, you were already
asked some questions about this by Mr. Panish, correct?
A. That is correct.
Q.: I'm going to show that again, if I may, exhibit 307. Is this the email you were talking about,
sir?
A. That is correct.
Q. All right. So if we focus in on it, it's Saturday, June 20th. According to this, it's 12:48:15,
2009, which would be 1:48, quarter of 2:00 in the afternoon?
A. It says 13:48.
Q. So it would still be about quarter of 2:00 in the afternoon? Is that part okay?
A. That's correct.
Q. Let me ask you about some specifics in it. It says "Kenny, it is critical that neither you, me
or anyone around this show become amateur psychiatrists or physicians." What do you mean
by that?
A. I mean that -- as John Hougdahl said in his email, he's a layman. We're all -- we're all laymen,

none of us are in the medical profession, and none of us were treating or -- treated -- involved in
Michael Jackson's health. Michael Jackson was involved in his health with his physician.
Q. It goes on to say "I had a lengthy conversation with Dr. Murray, who I am gaining immense
respect for as I get to deal with him more." What -- let's deal with the first part of that. What
were you referring to in terms of the lengthy conversation with Dr. Conrad Murray with Dr.
Murray?
A. That was the 25-or-so minute conversation that happened on the morning of the 20th.
Q. And when you say "I am gaining immense respect for as I get to deal with him more," What
did you mean by that?
A. Well, I had hardly really dealt with him up to this point; so that's why I'm saying "more." and
he was just so calm on the phone and like sure of what he was saying that he was very -- it was
very believable, and completely different than the tone of the emails I had gotten the night
before.
Q. So were you speaking truthfully when you said at that point that you were "gaining immense
respect for as I get to deal with him more"?
A. Correct. At that time, that's what I felt.
Q. It goes on to say that he said that Michael is "not only physically equipped to perform, and
that discouraging him to will hasten his decline instead of stopping it"?
A. Correct.
Q. Is that a true statement?
A. That was -- I was recounting to Kenny what he had told me on the phone.
Q. It goes on to say "Dr. Murray also reiterated that he is mentally able to and was speaking to
me from the house, where he had spent the morning with MJ." Did you understand when he
spoke with you that he was actually at the Carolwood house?
A. He told me he was, yes.
Q. Now I want to go on to the next portion. We'll come back to the -- the portion you were asked
so much about.
A. Okay.
Q. The "extremely successful" part. Let's go on to the second part where it says "It is critical
that we surround Mike with love and support." Did -- was that something Dr. Conrad Murray

had said to you, or was that you?

A. That was me.
Q. And then what did you mean?
A. What did I mean? That with a performer, when there when there sometimes are issues --
they're having issues, whether personal issues in their lives, or whatever, it's important for those
of us around him that he trusts to give him the love and support, meaning the confidence in a
situation like this, and not to second guess or to -- or to make diagnoses of what the situation, the
problem, could be. That's what I meant by that.
Q. Now, going to the line above it, the one you've been asked about, this is the one that says
"This doctor is extremely successful," parentheses, "we check everyone out," end
parentheses, "and does not need this gig, so he totally unbiased and ethical." Did I read that
right?
A. You certainly did.
Q. Okay. Let me ask you a couple of questions about this. At the time you wrote that, did you
believe that to be true?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. Was there anything about that that you wrote at the time that you didn't believe was true?
A. No.
Q. So let me ask you a little bit about that, as to what you believed at the time. Why did you
believe the first part, that Dr. Conrad Murray was extremely successful?
A. Because I was told by kathy jorrie, and also by Paul Gongaware at some point, that he had
asked for $5 million to buy out -- and he was operating I think it was three -- it might have
been four, but I believe it was three clinics in three different states, and he was licensed to
practice in three different states. So to me, hearing that, that would make him a successful doctor.
I mean, that's a big undertaking, to have that many businesses registered in three different states
and be registered with all the medical boards.
Q. Was there anything more than that for you when you said he is "extremely successful"?
A. No. It was really that.
Q. And then it goes on to say "we check everyone out." did you mean that AEG Live had actually

run a financial background check on on Dr. Conrad Murray?

A. On somebody's doctor, no.
Q. Did you mean that you ever perform a financial background check on anybody other than
someone who is dealing with monies at AEG?
A. That -- not that I know of. I don't know of us ever doing that.
Q. In fact, is the word "financial background check" in there at all?
A. No.
Q. Is the word "background check" in there at all?
A. No.
Q. Does it say "we do a background check on everyone"?
A. No.
Q. What does it say?
A. What it says is "we check everyone out." and, again, that refers to what in my mind is the
process we go through when we do business with third-party vendors.
Q. So what is that process where you check everyone out?
A. If we -- if we worked with them before, the -- the experience is in place of checking. If we
have never worked with them before, but they have references, I would -- I wouldn't, but
someone at the company would then probably call some of the people they had worked with to
find out if it was a lighting guy, how great was the -- how great was the lighting, what kind of
production design, that kind of thing. So we would have checked with other artists and their
managers or production managers. And the third -- the third is if they come to us from the artist,
and it's somebody the artist has worked with in the past, and Dr. Murray came -- was presented
to me by Mr. Jackson as his personal physician.
Q. So let me ask you a question about this. At this point in time when you said "we check
everyone out," did you have any belief that you had run a financial background check on
Dr. Conrad Murray?
A. No.
Q. At this point in time, did you believe you had run any background check on Dr. Conrad

Murray?
A. No.
Q. At that point in time, did you believe that you had checked him out?
A. Sufficiently enough to make that statement, yes.
Q. Do you have an understanding as to whether AEG Live ever ran a financial background check
on Dr. Conrad Murray?
A. I'm not sure -- one -- I'm not sure what Kathy did, but I doubt she did a background check.
Q. And why not?
Mr. Panish: Move to strike, there's no foundation.
Judge: Sustained; speculation.
Mr. Panish: Move to strike that, there's no basis.
Judge: Motion granted.
Q. Why not?
Mr. Panish: Same thing, same objection. Again, there's no foundation.
Q. Did you check out Dr. Conrad Murray other than how you talked about -- did you run a
financial background check?
A. On Conrad Murray, I wouldn't, because that wouldn't influence whether I thought he could
perform his functions as a physician.
Q. Well -- say that again? What do you mean?
A. I wouldn't even think -- other than the fact that Michael brought him into the process, it would
never occur to me that whether a doctor was a good businessman or not that he could he would
function as a -- as a physician -- you know, as a doctor, that he couldn't perform his functions
because he was in debt. That wouldn't occur to me.
Q. I want to ask you about that specific idea when -- what you say there is you say he does not
need this gig, so he's totally unbiased and ethical. Did you believe that at the time?

A. Yes.
Q. Mr. Panish asked you to say the converse of that, which was he does need this gig, so he is
totally biased and unethical. Do you remember when he asked you that?
A. Yes.
Q. Okay. Do you believe that if the doctor had needed that gig, that would have made him totally
biased and unethical?
A. No. It just would have meant we might have been able to pay less for his services.
Q. Okay. Let me ask you a hypothetical, sir. Let's say that you had done a financial background
check. Just pretend. All right? And say in that financial background check, you had discovered
Dr. Conrad Murray had substantial debts. Say that's what it showed. And say in that same
background check, you found out that he was licensed in four states, he had a number of clinics,
he went to good medical schools, he had solid internships, residencies, he'd never been
disciplined by a medical board, and he'd never been sued for malpractice. Let's just say
hypothetically that was the case. All right? In that hypothetical, would you have then gone to Mr.
Jackson and said to him, "you know what? We can't agree to advance these monies for your
doctor"? Would you have done that?
A. If all those things were correct in terms of his practice and his -- but he was in debt? Is that
the question?
Q. Uh-huh.
A. No. If anything, I would have said, "Michael, you could pay less for these services because he
needs a job."
Q. Do you believe that when someone is in financial debt, that means they're unethical, sir?
A. Absolutely not.
Q. Do you believe if someone is in financial debt, that means they're biased?
A. No.
Q. Let's go on to the next paragraph, sir. You say "it's critical --" strike that. The next part.
It says "we want to listen to how he wants to get ready for July 13th." Do you see that part, sir?
A. Yes.

Q. Why did you say it was "critical that we listen to how he wants to get ready for July 13th"?
A. Because in these barrage of emails, everybody was talking about what they needed, or what
they thought they needed. Okay? I felt it was very important to talk to the principal himself and
find out what he needed.
Q. And at this point in time, did you have any idea what he needed?
A. No.
Q. Did you have any idea what was wrong with him?
A. Absolutely not.
Q. And were you in any position to tell Mr. Jackson what he had to do to get ready for his show?
A. No.
Q. Going further into this email, you say "you cannot imagine the harm and ramifications of
stopping this show now. It would far outweigh calling this game in the seventh inning." what did
you mean by that, sir?
A. That given some of the credibility issues about whether Michael would ever take the stage
again, that existed out in the -- in the marketplace, that if we stopped the show now, it would -- I
don't know if Michael could ever resume his live career if that happened.
Q. Is that why you say on the next line "I'm not just talking about AEG's interests here"?
A. Correct.
Q. I'm going to move on, if I can, sir. Actually, I should ask you this. So you have that email
where you were responding to Mr. Ortega after the phone call with Dr. Conrad Murray. Now, all
of this had resulted -- all this was the result of an email that originally was sent by Mr. Hougdahl
where he was talking about Mr. Ortega's concerns, and then within them, there were also some
emails from Mr. Ortega talking about his concerns, correct?
A. Correct.
Q. So after you talked to the doctor, you then spoke directly to Mr. Ortega, right?
A. That is correct.
Q. And do you know whether you forwarded this on to anybody else?

A. It's very possible. It would make sense that I did.

Q. Okay. Look at the top of that 307, if you could.
A. Okay.
Q. Who did you forward it onto?
A. I forwarded it on to Tim, to Paul and to Frank Dileo.
Q. And let me ask you about this. Here you say "This guy is starting to concern me." what do
you mean by that?
A. I was talking about Kenny, and I was I was thinking about two things here when I said that.
On the one hand, I was concerned that he -- based on the second email I received from him,
which I thought was not necessary, since we already knew we had a problem in the first email, I
just was -- I was concerned that he was taking a position and getting entrenched into a position
that might not make himopen-minded for the meeting that we were going to have to try to figure
out what the issues were, so I was concerned that he was jumping to conclusions. That was one.
Okay? And two, I was very concerned that he might quit because he was frustrated and not finish
the production.
Q. I want to go for a second I want you to remember that this is one of the emails that we were
discussing about the timing issue. The email that you sent to Mr. Ortega, it says 13:48:15, which
would be 1:48 in the afternoon; and then above, it says 8:49:57 p.M. Now, if that's the right time,
it's many hours later. If, however, you go seven hours before, that means you would have
forwarded that to him about a minute after you sent this to Mr. Ortega.
A. Correct.
Q. Do you believe you didn't send that to Mr. Leiweke until that evening? Do you have any idea
as you sit here today?
A. No, it wouldn't -- it wouldn't make sense. That's why I was confused by the time stamp,
because it wouldn't make sense, because we had already had the meeting at the house which
ended quite well.
Q. And, in fact, doesn't it say in that email "Dr. Murray and I are meeting with MJ At 4:00 PM
today at the Forum"?
A. Correct.
Q. Would it -- had you -- by 8:49 p.M. At night on the 20th, had you already had your meeting at
Carolwood?

A. Yes, we had.
Q. And was there some other meeting planned at the Forum at 4:00 p.M. That day or the next
day?
A. No.
Q. So this email's time had to be at some point earlier?
A. Yes. I don't -- it doesn't make sense otherwise.
Q. Now, in terms of your concern about Mr. Ortega, did you think Mr. Ortega was exaggerating
in any way in his emails?
A. I didn't know -- I had no way of determining that one way or another. I just felt that there was
-- there was no need for the second email. The need was to have the meeting with the principal.
Q. Now, what's your opinion of Mr. Kenny Ortega?
A. I think he is one of the most creative artist-oriented directors I've ever worked with, and I
understood why Michael loved him so much.
Q. Did you think that Mr. Ortega had Mr. Jackson's best interests at heart?
A. Oh, absolutely.
Q. Is it your understanding that Mr. Ortega was an employee of AEG Live?
A. No.
Q. We've heard about a number of people who at some point were an employee, but maybe
weren't at this time. Do you have an understanding as to whether Mr. Ortega was ever an
employee of AEG Live?
A. I had never worked with him before, and I invented AEG Live.
Q. In terms of his title, you mentioned it before. What was Mr. Ortega's title at this time?
A. He was the show director.
Q. Did you have any understanding that Mr. Ortega was in some way in charge of Mr. Jackson's
health?
A. No.

Q. Did anyone ever tell you that he was in charge of Mr. Jackson's health?
A. He was the show director, Mr. Putnam. That makes no sense.
Q. Are you aware of whether anybody at AEG Live ever put Mr. Ortega in charge of Mr.
Jackson's health?
A. No.
Q. So right now we're into the afternoon of the 20th. Are you still concerned about the "trouble
at the Front" emails?
A. I am -- I was concerned -- I was confused because I had Dr. Murray's information and his
Perspective, and I had Kenny's perspective, including what he asked John to disseminate, so I
was -- I was completely baffled as to what the issue could be at that -- at that time.
Q. And do I understand correctly that, in fact, you raised those concerns when you spoke with
Dr. Conrad Murray?
A. That is correct. That is correct.
Q. And did you understand that Dr. Conrad Murray was Michael Jackson's personal physician?
A. Yes -- yes, I did.
Q. And you also forwarded all of those concerns to Mr. Jackson's management team?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. Let's go to that meeting on June 20th.
A. I mean, Mr. Putnam, just one thing about your question about -- I don't know if I'm allowed to
do this.
Q. Do you have something else you'd like to say, sir?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. What is that?
A. Okay. When you asked me about did anyone put Kenny -- the show director in charge of
Michael Jackson's health, as far as I was -- as far as I would have thought then, and I think now,
the only person in charge of Michael Jackson's health is Michael Jackson.

Q. Did you ever have any reason to believe otherwise?

A. No.
Q. How -- he was how old?
A. 50 -- he was a 50-year-old man.
Q. Do you have any belief --
A. Father of three.
Q. Do you have any belief that this 50-year-old man, father of three, was unable to take care of
his own medical and health issues?
A. Not at all.
Q. Now, we've been talking a lot about a meeting for June 20th. The night of June 19th, you
started to get these emails. Did a meeting ultimately take place as a result of these emails?
A. Yes.
Q. And when did that meeting occur?
A. It occurred in the afternoon of June 20th.
Q. And was it -- is that less than 24 hours after the emails started to -- to arrive?
A. Yes.
Q. And do you have any understanding as to who set up that meeting?

A. Frank Dileo called me on the morning of the 20th and said that he wanted to set up a meeting
at the house. He was -- I don't remember if he was in Nashville or Pittsburgh. He had an
apartment in Nashville, he had a house in Pittsburgh, and that's where his family was. I don't
know which city he was in, but he called me and said, "Would you attend this meeting? Okay? I
can't get back there until tomorrow, I'm going to cut my trip short." I said, "Of course I will."
Q. Why didn't you wait until he got back a day later?
A. Because there were these alarming emails,
And everything was happening then, and I agreed with Frank, this is something that needed to
happen right away.

Q. And that was Frank Dileo, who is part of Mr. Jackson's management team?
A. Correct.
Q. And Frank Dileo who you had sent all these emails too, correct?
A. That is correct.
Q. And did you ultimately attend the meeting at carolwood?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. Was Mr. Dileo in that meeting?
A. No.
Q. Who was in that meeting, sir?
A. Kenny Ortega, Dr. Murray, Michael Jackson and myself.
Q. So Mr. Jackson was there, as was Dr. Conrad Murray?
A. That is correct.
Q. And if you know, do you know why Paul Gongaware wasn't there?
A. I think he was out of town at the time.
Q. How, do you have an understanding as to who asked Dr. Conrad Murray to attend the
meeting?
A. I believe it was Frank Dileo.
Q. So you just don't know who?
A. I don't know.
Q. Um --
A. Other than in my conversation with Frank, he said when he got off with me, he was going to
call Dr. Murray.
Q. Let me ask you a further question on this. Did -- did you have any understanding as to in what
capacity Dr. Conrad Murray was attending that meeting? Was he attending because AEG Live
wanted him there?

Mr. Panish: There's no foundation.

Q. Do you have an understanding?
Mr. Panish: There's no foundation for his understanding.
Mr. Putnam: I'm asking him do you have an understanding as to --
Judge: What's your --
Mr. Panish: What's the basis for his understanding?
Mr. Putnam: I'll re-ask it, your honor.
Judge: Okay. There's a more direct way of asking, I think.
Q. What was your understanding as to why Dr. Conrad Murray was there?
Mr. Panish: Foundation.
Judge: It's a little vague, his understanding.
Q. Did anyone ever tell you why Dr. Conrad Murray was there?
A. Frank Dileo told me he wanted to have Dr. Murray in the meeting.
Q. All right. At this point in time, did you understand that Dr. Conrad Murray was working for
AEG Live?
A. No.
Q. At this point in time, did you have an understanding as to who Dr. Conrad Murray was
working for?
A. He was Michael Jackson's personal physician.
Q. Were you glad that he was there?
A. Of course.

Q. Did you think it was odd that he was there?

A. Not at all.
Q. Can you tell us what happened at the meeting?
A. At the -- at the meeting, I didn't say much at the meeting. I -- I kind of observed there. And
there was an interaction between Kenny and Dr. Murray mostly, and also Michael, and Dr.
Murray admonished Kenny -- Kenny talked about his concerns. Kenny opened the meeting. He
didn't get very far before Dr. Murray kind of cut him off and admonished him not to be an
amateur physician, and to do this kind of diagnosis of his patient, Mr. Jackson, and that Michael
was fine, whatever had happened the night before was was momentary, and that he needs to
leave his health in his hands, and he should worry about getting the show finished.
Q. Before I move on to reaction and whatnot, let me ask you a question. You used the term
"amateur physician." that's also the term you had used in your email after you spoke to Dr.
Murray. Had he said the same thing to you?
A. Yes. I was reusing his terminology.
Q. So he said this to you and he also said this in this meeting?
A. Yes, he did.
Q. And what was Mr. Ortega's reaction?
A. I think Kenny -- I think Kenny was a little bit stunned by kind of Dr. Murray's aggressiveness
at pointing to him and saying, you know, basically, "stay in your lane, this is my lane, I have it."
that's --
Q. Did you -- sorry.
A. No, no. That was my observation of the exchange.
Q. Were you surprised by this yourself, about how Dr. Conrad Murray responded to Mr. Ortega?
A. Not really, because he had said that on the phone to me. But, yeah, in person, I was a little bit
surprised.
Q. And what was Mr. Ortega's demeanor like at the time?
A. It was -- it was great. He was very calm, you know, he took the criticism, the admonition from
admonishment from Dr. Murray, and then got into a conversation that he was thrilled to do that
and, "Okay. Let's get the show done. Here's what we need to do." and then he and Michael got

into a conversation.
Q. Now, what was that conversation?
A. Michael said to Kenny -- he said, "Kenny, you have to understand --" Michael looked great,
he was -- he was fine in this meeting. Okay? And he said to Kenny -- he said, "Look, Kenny. I've
been doing these -- this choreography for most of my career. Okay? I have muscle memory," is
what he said, "and I don't need to be at rehearsal all the time. Okay? I will be ready for the
opening of the show." he said to him then, "You build the house; and when you're done, I'll come
and put the door on and paint it," was his terminology.
Q. And that was Mr. Jackson to Mr. Ortega?
A. Correct.
Q. So rehearsals were discussed at this meeting, then?
A. Yes, between them.
Q. You said Mr. Jackson looked good. Tell me -- did he have the shakes?
A. No.
Q. Did he mention at all that he was cold?
A. No.
Q. Was he wrapped in blankets?
A. No.
Q. Did he experience any flu-like symptoms to you?
A. None whatsoever.
Q. Did he seem in any way -- did you see any remnants of what you had heard about from the
the emails of the evening before talking about how he was at rehearsal? I mean, was there
anything about it that gave you concern when you looked at him?
A. Not at all.
Q. Did it give you concern that he seemed so fine in light of the emails that you had seen the
evening before?
A. Concern -- not concern, confusion. I was confused. What I -- what I witnessed and

experienced in the meeting on the afternoon of the 20th in the house and what was depicted in
those emails made no sense at all.
Q. Anything else you can recall from that meeting, sir?
A. Just that Kenny -- Michael agreed to start coming to rehearsals regularly because he
understood that Kenny needed him in the production because it was so complex. I mean, there
was this 3D suit that they had to test out that they had made for Michael, all of this stuff that
required Michael -- you know, travis, who was kind of a stand-in for Michael and blocking shots
and things that happened in rehearsal couldn't do what Michael needed to do for Kenny to finish
this. Plus, Michael needed to know cues. These are massive -- this was a massive effects show.
Q. Did Mr. Ortega get into Michael Jackson's face at the time?
A. No.
Q. What was his demeanor like towards Mr. Jackson?
A. Kenny would have never gotten into Michael Jackson's face. It makes no sense. He dealt with
Michael with the most incredible deference possible, more so than any director I've ever seen.
Because directors can be edgy, they can be very tough and demanding with artists. This was not
the relationship that Kenny Ortega and Michael Jackson had, and I assume over multiple tours
and many years.
Q. How would you describe the nature of their relationship?
A. It was incredible. I mean, they loved each other, and I don't use that term lightly because I'm
sitting here. They loved each other. Michael would not have done -- made it very clear to us,
which gave us very little negotiating leverage, he would not have done This Is It without Kenny
Ortega directing it.
Q. Did anybody at this meeting ever discuss pulling the plug on the This Is It tour?
A. No.
Q. Did anybody ever say, "This either changes now or it's over"?
A. No, no, no one talked like that.
Q. Was there anything -- any conversation remotely like that during this meeting?
A. Absolutely not.
Q. Did you ask -- at the meeting, did you ask Dr. Conrad Murray any questions that you can

recall?
A. No.
Q. Did Mr. Jackson ask any questions that you can recall?
A. No. He just told Kenny where his head was at.
Q. Tell me, how did you feel at the end of this meeting? Did you -- were you pleased with the
results?
A. I was confused based on when I went into the meeting with the information I had, and I was
Thrilled when the meeting was over.
Q. Why were you thrilled?
A. Because Michael looked great, the doctor was reassuring, Kenny accepted the rehearsal
schedule, Kenny interacted with Michael, and so that allayed my two concerns in that previous
email when I said "this guy concerns me." Kenny was back on board and competent, and
Michael seemed to be fine.
Q. Did you ever have any meeting with Dr. Conrad Murray again after that meeting at carolwood
on the afternoon of June 20th, 2009?
A. No. The next time I saw him was, unfortunately, at Ronald Reagan Emergency Room when
Michael died.
Q. And after that afternoon of June 20th, 2009, the meeting at carolwood, did you ever return to
Mr. Jackson's Carolwood home ever again?
A. No.
Q. I'd like to show -- has this been already shown? I think it has right? 8080. I'd like to show you
an exhibit that's already in now, Mr. Phillips, you remember being asked questions about this
series of emails?
A. Yes, I do.
Q. I want to go to the top, if I may. And can you tell us who this email is sent to?
A. This is to -- the first email on page 1?
Q. Uh-huh.
A. Okay. This is sent to Michael Jackson's management team and Paul Gongaware and copying

Tim Leiweke.
Q. And just broadly, we'll get into the specifics in a moment, what was the subject that you were
going into here?
A. The meeting on the 20th.
Q. So you were letting them know about the meeting on the 20th? Is that fair to say?
A. That is correct.
Q. And so you sent this off to Mr. Jackson's management team. Why did you do that?
A. Because that would have been the responsible thing to do in this situation.
Q. Would the responsible thing be to, if you have any concern, shut the show down?
A. That would be the irresponsible thing to do.
Q. Why? He dies a couple of days later, sir.
A. But not of anything that happened in this meeting.
Q. Let me ask you this. You send this off to his management team. The first line is "We had a
very productive, solid meeting with Kenny, Dr. Murray MJ and myself." Did you think the
meeting was productive and solid?
A. Absolutely.
Q. Why is that, sir?
A. Because Michael looked great. Kenny and he were in agreement on a rehearsal schedule. So
the two purposes of the meeting; one, to assess Michael's condition based on the emails the night
before, and to hear from his personal physician, and Michael better Michael, more important
than anything; and also Kenny and he, because my concern was Kenny, too.
Q. Did it ever cross your mind that Mr. Jackson was putting on a really good show, he was, you
know -- he's a performer. Maybe he was just hiding it really well and, you know, he was in bad
shape right then? Did you ever think that?
A. Not at all.
Q. You go on to say the doctor was fantastic. What do you mean by that?
A. Meaning he was strong, Michael let him do a lot of the talking for him on the health issues the

night before, and he was just solid. Do you know what I mean?
Q. Do you have any doubt about it about Dr. Conrad Murray at this point?
A. None whatsoever, no.
Q. Did you think he was a charlatan at this point?
A. No.
Q. Did you think that maybe he was unethical or biased at this point?
A. No. All I -- all I thought at this point was he and Michael had a fabulous relationship.
Q. And it goes on to say "I think Kenny's hysteria will be in check while MJ was alert and
attentive." What do you mean by "I think Kenny's hysteria will be in check"?
A. Based on the two emails from Kenny, which I thought were a little prejudgmental, since we
hadn't had the meeting yet, I think his concerns were addressed at the meeting. Kenny was there,
as was I, we both witnessed Michael's appearance physically, and his mental and attuitiveness.
Q. I want to ask you about that. Is that what you mean when you say MJ was alert and attentive?
A. That is correct.
Q. You went on to say "We have all agreed on a schedule that works for both KO and MJ." Do
you see that?
A. Yes.
Q. What did you mean by that?
A. Meaning that Kenny and Michael Michael agreed to start coming to rehearsals more instead
of working out of the house with Travis. They were working in the ballroom of the house, and he
said he would come more, he understood Kenny's need to have him there.
Q. Were you involved in setting that schedule?
A. No.
Q. Mr. Phillips, were you and Dr. Conrad Murray ever responsible for setting up a rehearsal
schedule for Michael Jackson?
A. No.

Q. Can you think of any scenario where that would have been the case?
A. No. The only thing is, Mr. Putnam, I agreed to put -- move my office down to Staples Center
for those -- for the rehearsals.
Q. Is that what you mean when you say "I promised Kenny I would office out of Staples"?
A. Yes.
Q. Explain to us what you meant by that.
A. Well, because Kenny thought it would be -- I had a very good relationship with Michael, also.
Kenny thought it would be good if I was there and if there were any issues, I could witness them
myself, not through emails. And, also, he just wanted me there, you know, to help him get to the
finish line.
Q. Did you want to be there?
A. Yeah, this was going to be the greatest show on -- ever, yes.
Q. Were you still concerned with Mr. Jackson at this point?
A. No.
Q. Was it your responsibility, sir, to get Mr. Jackson to rehearsals?
A. No.
Q. When you go on to say things were not as bleak as Mr. Ortega's emails would have suggested,
what was that based on?
A. Based on the emails I had received on the 19th, the "trouble at the Front" chain of emails.
Q. So this is after your meeting on the 20th, correct, sir?
A. That is correct.
Q. And you sent it off to the team. It says it was a Sunday. Do you know if there were rehearsals
on Sunday, June 21st?
A. No. Michael and Kenny agreed to resume rehearsals on Tuesday the 23rd.
Q. And did you office out of Staples on June 23rd?
A. Well, I think you have an email somewhere where I couldn't -- my office was -- the room they

were giving me was locked and I couldn't get in. So yes, I -- I did plan on moving my office,
including Arlyne, the aforementioned Arlyne Lewiston, down to Staples Center.
Q. And did that not happen on the 23rd?
A. No, it did. I worked out of Staples Center on the 23rd.
Q. So you ended up getting there?
A. Yes.
Q. And did you attend rehearsals?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. And they were at the staples center?
A. They were.
Q. How long were you at the rehearsals on the 23rd?
A. I was there probably from 11:00 o'clock in the morning until midnight or so both -- both days.
Q. Did you actually watch Mr. Jackson rehearse on the 23rd?
A. Yes.
Q. What did you think?
A. There was -- I did have a meeting I believe on the 24th in Beverly Hills at imagine films; so
for that -- for that hour and a half, whatever, I was there.
Q. So let's say on the 23rd -- on the 23rd, you saw Mr. Jackson's rehearsal. How was he?
A. How do you describe one of the greatest entertainers that ever lived? He was -- I had goose
bumps watching him.
Q. Did he have a bad rehearsal?
A. No.
Q. Did he have a good rehearsal?
A. I believe there's a movie that depicts the rehearsal. But, yeah, it was fantastic.

Q. They haven't seen that yet, so --

A. Okay.
Q. Tell me, what did you experience?
A. What did I experience? I experienced -- I remember at one point I was -- this might have been
the 24th. I think it was the 24th. I was standing next to Tim Leiweke, and Ken Ehrlich was there,
who produces the Grammies. And the three of us were like these hardened entertainment
executives, we were like three babies, you know, we had goose bumps. It was just -- it was
phenomenal watching those songs come alive.
Q. So as you segued over to the 24th, let me put them together. So on the 23rd and 24th, you
thought he did a good job?
A. I thought he did an incredible job.
Q. At that point in time, were you worried for the reasons raised in the "trouble at the Front"
emails on the night of the 19th and the morning of the 20th?
A. No. There would be no reason to be.
Q. On the 24th, did you talk to Mr. Jackson at all?
A. Yes.
Q. What did you talk about?
A. We spoke a couple of times during the day. Just how is he feeling, telling him how great the
show is looking, things like that.
Q. How long did you watch rehearsals on the 24th?
A. The whole -- the whole thing from beginning to end.
Q. And about how long was that, sir?
A. I think that night it was probably two and
A. Half hours.
Q. And at that point in time, did you have any concerns about Mr. Jackson's health?
A. Absolutely not.

Q. Did you have any concerns about his ability to do a 360?

A. Considering he did, as Mr. Panish says, multiple 360's, no.
Q. Did you have any concerns that there might be drug use at this time?
A. No.
Q. Did you have any concerns about Dr. Conrad Murray on the 24th of June?
A. Not at all.
Q. Did he cross your mind at all?
A. No.
Q. How did that evening end?
A. It ended -- Mike -- Michael finished, he came off the stage, and I remember he, Kenny and I
believe travis had like a communal hug because it was such a great rehearsal. Then he went back
into his dressing room to get ready to leave.
Q. Did you see him again after that?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. When?
A. When he came out of his dressing room and he was -- at one point, my memory -- I thought
he was going -- he was getting into his car. He actually was getting into a golf cart to go to his
car. Frank Dileo and I were standing outside in the hallway outside the dressing room. He came
over and put his arm around me and said, "You -- you have gotten me this far. I can take it from
here. I've got this."
Q. How did you feel about that?
A. I felt like a million dollars.
Q. So Mr. Dileo had made it back from either Asheville or Nashville, wherever he was?
A. Yes.
Q. He was at the -- at the rehearsals?
A. Yes.

Q. Did you have any reason to believe on the night of June 24th, that Mr. Jackson would pass the
following day?
A. Of course not. I was totally shocked.
Q. The -- did you ever see Mr. Jackson again after he said that to you that evening?
A. No.
Q. So it's the night of June 24th. Approximately what time, if you can recall, did you have that
conversation with Mr. Jackson?
A. It was sometime around midnight.
Q. And what did you do after that?
A. I went -- I went and said goodnight to Kenny, you know, high-fived, you know, same thing
with
Frank, and then I went home.
Q. Do you remember how Mr. Ortega seemed that evening?
A. Elated.
Q. Why do you say that?
A. Because he -- because this was his work and Michael's work. They were creative -- like they
had like mind meld creatively, and this was his work coming alive onstage, and Kenny knew
then that we were over the hump and we were on our way to greatness.
Q. And did you feel the same way?
A. Absolutely.
Q. Mr. Jackson passed the next day, right, sir?
A. Yes, he did.
Q. We've already heard testimony about where you were that day, how you got there. You were at
the cleaners, if I remember.
A. I was in westwood at the dry cleaners.
Q. And ultimately you found your way to the hospital where Mr. Jackson had been taken,

correct?
A. That is correct.
Q. Did you go in the hospital, sir?
A. Yes.
Q. And did you see Mr. Jackson?
A. No. I saw the gurney he was on behind these curtains in the emergency room. That's what I
saw.
Q. Did you see Dr. Conrad Murray?
A. Late -- later, after he died, but I I know he was in that room with a bunch of other people
working on trying to revive Michael.
Q. Did you ever have a conversation with Dr. Conrad Murray that day?
A. After Michael passed away, I think Dr. Tohme was standing next to me, Frank could have
been there. I don't remember.
Mr. Panish: What Dr. Murray told him is hearsay.
Judge: Sustained.
Mr. Putnam: I asked him if he had a conversation.
Q. Did you talk to him?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you say anything to him?
A. He was -- he was hysterical. He was crying, shaking.
Mr. Panish: Well, there's --
Phillips: It was really -- I might have tried to calm him down, but there was no real
conversation.

Q. You didn't say anything to him that you can recall?

A. No.
Q. You said Dr. Tohme was there?
A. Yes.
Q. Why was Dr. Tohme there, if you know?
A. Because Michael had brought him back into the fold, into the management team.
Q. Was Dr. Tohme at either of the rehearsals on the 24th or 25th?
A. I don't -- I don't remember. I don't think so.
Q. And very briefly, sir, how did you find out that Mr. Jackson had passed away?
A. I was in the hallway with -- Frank Dileo and I were sitting on a gurney in the hallway that was
against the wall, and this head nurse came out and she said, "I'm sorry --" we got up, and she
said, "I'm sorry to tell you Mr. Jackson has passed away."
Q. And what was your reaction?
A. Frank collapsed, so I had to grab him, and we were devastated.
Q. Were you surprised, sir?
A. Uh-huh.
Q. I'm just going to go from there, sir. The -- Mr. Jackson passed away on June 25th, correct?
A. Correct. (sidenote: Randy Phillips begins crying, but recovers swiftly in 3 seconds)
Q. I want to go back and ask about something that -- that you mentioned yesterday and was
mentioned in previous testimony. Are you okay?
A. I'm okay.
Q. Okay. Does AEG Live have a policy about working with artists when there are allegations or
Press accounts that the artist has an alcohol or substance abuse problem?
A. No, there is no -- there is no policy.
Q. Why not?

A. Because, I mean, artists have issues. You know, being an artist, Mr. Putnam, means you have
to reinvent yourself all the time and you put yourself out to the public for their acceptance. It's a
very tough life. Whatever makes them great also sometimes affects their lives, their personal
lives, so we're not judgmental like that. That's not our job, to make determinations like that,
because if that were the case, artists -- great artists like Robert Downey, Jr., ten years ago
couldn't get a completion bond to make a movie. Okay? Wouldn't be around today. Today he
anchors one of the biggest successes in the history of the film business, the "iron man" series.
Okay? You can't give up on people. That's not our job, or to be -- or to be judgmental like that.
Q. As a concert promoter and producer, do you have any control about what an artist does when
they're not at rehearsals?
A. No.
Q. Do you have any control over what they do when they're not onstage?
A. Of course not, no.
Q. And when you say "of course not," why do you say that?
A. Because the -- the promoter/artist relationship is an arm's length -- we're putting up money,
we're taking risk, we make a deal with the artist. We're not part of their inner circle or their
management team.
Q. I want to ask you a question about one incident that you mentioned, and you talked about A.
Meeting where it came to your attention after you saw that Mr. Jackson seemed -- I think your
term was "vacant" and out of it, that he had seen A. Dr. Arnold Klein. Let me ask you about that.
When did this meeting occur?
A. It happened sometime in either late may or early June. We were having a production meeting,
Paul Gongaware needed a bunch of answers from Michael about stuff that he then had to then go
execute a bond.
Q. And if you can recall, who was in this meeting?
A. If was Paul Gongaware, Frank Dileo, Michael and myself. And Kenny -- Kenny may have
been there. I don't remember if he was at this meeting or not.
Q. And where was this meeting?
A. It was at the living room at the Carolwood address.
Q. And is this the same place we've heard about where all the other meetings were?
A. Correct.

Q. You said that Mr. Jackson appeared out of it. What do you mean?
A. Michael was sitting -- Paul was on the -- that settee, and Michael was on the couch, I was on
this couch, frank was next to me. And as we were talking to mike -- as Paul was talking to
Michael, Michael was sitting and staring out into the dining room, which was across the
entranceway, the foyer of the house. He was just staring at the dining room, and kind of -- and
not engaged, and coming in and out of the conversation.
Q. And had you ever seen Mr. Jackson that way prior to that meeting?
A. No.
Q. Did you ever see him that way again after that meeting?
A. No.
Q. Did that give you any concern?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you have an understanding as to why he was acting that way?
A. As we were leaving, I asked Michael Amir Williams, his assistant, why -- "is everything
okay?" and he said --
Mr. Panish: objection; calls for hearsay.
Judge: sustained.
Q. did you come to learn why -- where Mr. Jackson had been prior to that
Meeting?
A. Yes.
Mr. Panish: it's also based on hearsay.
Mr. Putnam: it's not for the truth of the matter asserted, your honor. He's mentioned Dr.
Klein eight times.
Judge: I'm sorry. He mentioned --
Mr. Putnam: -- this doctor several, several times. It's not a question of the truth of the
matter asserted, it's his understanding and reaction of why he was concerned.

Judge: where is this statement coming from?

Mr. Panish: what --
Mr. Putnam: he said he asked Mr. Jackson's assistant, his agent, why Mr. Jackson seemed
that way.
Judge: and that's Amir?
Mr. Putnam: yes.
Judge: what's your objection?
Mr. Panish: number 1, it's hearsay. Number 2, his understanding is not relevant to this
issue.
Judge: overruled.
Q. who is Mr. Michael Amir Williams?
A. He was Mr. Jackson's assistant at the time.
Q. And did Mr. Michael Amir Williams have an answer for you?
A. Yes.
Q. And what did he tell you, sir?
A. He said he had just come from Dr. Klein's office.
Q. And did you know what he meant when he said "Dr. Klein"?
A. Well, I knew Dr. Arnold Klein was a famous dermatologist in Beverly Hills. I'd actually gone
to him once many years before.
Q. So you knew who he actually was?
A. Yes.
Q. And were you concerned about this idea that Mr. Jackson was seeing Dr. Arnold Klein?
A. Well, he's a dermatologist, so I -- I had no knowledge of what he was -- you know, giving
Michael Botox, I had no idea what he was treating him for, so I didn't -- I had a concern about
the way Michael seemed that day; but he never was like that again, so I didn't have that concern.

Q. And do you have any understanding as to what Mr. Michael Jackson was doing in terms of his
treatment with Dr. Arnold Klein?
A. None whatsoever.
Q. Were you surprised that he was seeing A. Dermatologist in the run-up to his shows at the 02?
A. No.
Q. I mean, is it fair to say that you understood that Mr. Jackson had had some cosmetic work
Before?
A. No; he had cosmetic work, he also had Vitiligo, which is a skin thing.
Q. So the fact that he was seeing Dr. Klein, that in and of itself didn't concern you?
A. No. It seemed normal.
Q. But you did have a concern about the way he was acting that day?
A. That day.
Q. Did you have any reason to believe at that point that Dr. Arnold Klein was in some way
giving Mr. Michael Jackson some painkillers?
A. No.
Q. Did you have any reason to believe that point that Dr. Arnold Klein was in any way providing
Mr. Michael Jackson with Propofol?
A. I didn't know what Propofol was at that time.
Q. Did you have any concern that Mr. Michael Jackson might be abusing drugs because of what
you saw in that meeting?
A. No; but I didn't know what caused it. I mean, I didn't know it was drugs, I just didn't know
What it was.
Q. Okay. Did you ever tell anybody about your concerns?
A. Yes.
Q. And who did you tell?
A. I told Dr. Conrad Murray.

Q. Why would you tell him?

A. Why wouldn't I? He's Michael's physician. He would seem like the appropriate person to tell.
Q. Now, at this point in time, you said it was late May, early June. Had you even met Dr. Conrad
Murray at this point?
A. This was the first meeting we had with him.
Q. So the first meeting you had with him was when you told him?
A. Yes.
Q. Okay. So that was a meeting that you talked about that you weren't sure whether it was
sometime in early June to mid-June?
A. Correct.
Q. You had your first meeting with Dr. Conrad Murray?
A. That is correct.
Q. And in that meeting, you told him about your concern about Dr. Arnold Klein?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. Okay. And that was a meeting where I believe you told us -- I think Mr. Ortega was there, Mr.
Gongaware. Am I forgetting somebody?
A. And Frank Dileo.
Q. Thank you. And what did you tell them?
A. At the end of the meeting, I pulled him aside and I said to him -- I said, "Dr. Murray, are you
aware that Michael Jackson is seeing Dr. Arnold Klein for some type of treatment or
treatments?" and he -- he --
Mr. Panish: once again, your honor, what -- Dr. Murray and his understanding is not
relevant for
Anything, and it's also hearsay.
Mr. Putnam: I'm asking what he told whether or not he actually told a person, which in
this instance, was Dr. Conrad Murray.
Mr. Panish: but what Dr. Murray --

Judge: well, what -- is there some other reason that it would come in?
Mr. Putnam: it's not for the truth of whether it ever occurred.
Judge: overruled. You may answer.
A. would you repeat the question?
Q. sure. You said that you pulled Dr. Conrad Murray aside during this meeting and told him of
your concern?
Q. What did you tell him?
A. I told him that, "are you aware that Michael Jackson is seeing Dr. Arnold Klein for some type
of treatment or treatments?" okay? And the indication he gave to me is that he knew about it.
Q. Why do you say that?
A. Because he said -- he said, "I'm aware."
Q. Okay. Now I want to show you an e-mail that Mr. Panish showed you earlier, exhibit 8246.
While you're looking at that, I have
A. Question.
Q. Did you ever discuss your concern about Dr. Conrad Murray at any other time with anyone up
until -- sorry. Did I say Dr. Murray -- your concern with Dr. Arnold Klein at any time up until,
say, the 20th, June 20th, the time of the meeting at the house? Do you remember anyone besides
Dr. Conrad Murray?
A. Anyone other than Dr. Conrad Murray?
Q. Yes.
A. No.
Q. Now let's look at the 8246. You remember this is an e-mail actually a series of e-mails. The
first is from Michael Kane to Mr. Dileo and yourself.
A. Correct.
Q. And then forwarded on to -- I'm sorry -- response from Michael Kane, Mr. Dileo, to you.
Do you see that?
A. Yes.

Q. Do you remember being asked about this?

A. Yes.
Q. It says "on the list of doctors that will help get up from today to the opening night, where
does Mr. Arnold Klein stand on the list?" do you see that?
A. Yes.
Q. And your response is "he scares us to death because he is shooting him up with
something."
Do you see that?
A. Yes.
Q. Let me ask you a couple of questions. Who is Michael Kane again?
A. Michael Kane was Michael Jackson's business manager at this point in time.
Q. So the business manager is asking you on the list of doctors that will help -- did you have an
Understanding as to why he was asking that question?
A. It was in response to the "trouble at the front" e-mails, and that's -- that's why he was asking
That.
Q. And it says "he scares us to death because he is shooting him up with something."
Why did you say that?
A. Because Michael Kane had told me -- when he asked for the million-dollar advance for Mr.
Jackson's personal needs, he said one of the reasons he needed the money was he had a $48,000
invoice from Dr. Klein's office. And on the invoice, it said Restylane, Botox, and then there were
like dozens of things that said I.M., I.M., I.M., I.M.
Q. And this was actually -- we saw this mentioned in the deposition clip that was shown by Mr.
Panish last week. So let me break that down a little bit. First off, what do you mean by the
million-dollar advance? Was a new advance asked for in this time period?
A. Yes.
Q. So we're in the time of late June?
A. Correct.
Q. And the -- Mr. Jackson's team asked you for an additional advance?

A. That is correct.
Q. And how much was that advance for?
A. $1 million.
Q. And did you have an understanding as to why they needed another million dollars?
A. He said that Mr. Jackson had a lot of bills piling up that he needed to pay.
Q. And one of those bills was this $48,000 bill that you're talking about?
A. Yes; and he used that as an example of why he needed the money.
Q. And this was a $48,000 bill with Dr. Arnold Klein?
A. I remember it was 48,000, close, something in that neighborhood, from Arnold Klein's office,
yes.
Q. And was this a bill that you understood that Mr. Jackson's business manager, Michael Kane,
had received?
A. Yes.
Q. Had you received this to pay?
A. No. I -- I wouldn't have expected to.
Q. Why would you not expect yourself to receive a bill from Mr. Jackson's dermatologist?
A. Because we wouldn't be paying Michael Jackson's doctors.
Q. Okay. And, in fact, they came and asked you for a further advance, and in this instance, to
help pay for a dermatologist?
A. Amongst other things.
Q. Uh-huh. Did this surprise you?
A. That he needed the money?
Q. Uh-huh.
A. No.

Q. Did you have any understanding at the time -- you said you saw that there was Restylane,
Botox. Did you have an understanding of what I.M. Meant?
A. None whatsoever other than Michael Kane mentioned he thought it meant "intramuscular,"
meaning injections.
Q. Did you ever agree to pay that bill?
A. No.
Q. Why not?
A. Because we don't pay doctors' bills.
Q. Did you have an understanding -- and you understood that he had received that bill, correct?
A. Correct.
Q. Did you ever have an understanding up until the time of Mr. Jackson's passing, that Dr.
Arnold Klein was providing Propofol to Michael Jackson?
A. No.
Q. Did you ever have an understanding up until the time of Mr. Jackson's passing that Dr. Klein
was giving him Demerol?
A. No.
Q. Did you know up until the time of Mr. Jackson's passing whether Dr. Arnold Klein was giving
him any kind of painkillers, at least any that were not associated with some treatment?
A. No.
Q. Did you ever think Dr. Conrad Murray, until the time of Mr. Jackson's passing, was ever
giving
Mr. Jackson Propofol?
A. As I stated, I didn't know what Propofol was at the time.
Q. Okay. Tell me a little bit about that. When did you first learn was propofol was?
A. After Michael died, from news reports on television.
Q. So you'd never heard of it before then?
A. No. I mean, it had been administered to me when I had my Colonscopy, and that's all I knew.
That's what I was told, that's what they would administer to me.

Q. Okay. And did you ever learn the cause of Mr. Jackson's death?
A. Eventually -- after all the speculation in the media, eventually the coroner's report said it was
from an overdose, I believe of Propofol.
Q. And that was something you had never heard of before Mr. Jackson's passing?
A. No.
Q. And do you have any -- strike that. I have another question for you, sir. There were a couple
of e-mails that were asked -- those e-mails were related to the idea of AEG Live making a
fortune after Mr. Jackson's death. Do you remember those e-mails?
A. Yes, I do.
Q. Did AEG Live make a fortune related to Mr. Jackson after Mr. Jackson's death?
A. No, we did not.
Mr. Putnam: I have no further questions, your honor.
Judge: okay. Thank you. Re- -- redirect, I guess.
Redirect examination by Mr. Panish:
Q. Mr. Phillips, you seem to have a good memory now that your lawyer is questioning you, a lot
better than when I was questioning you, huh?
A. Only because they're showing me full e-mails and stuff like that, so that helps.
Q. Sure. How many hours have you spent since I stopped questioning you on Monday, Tuesday,
Wednesday, Thursday with your lawyers, sir?
A. Maybe six hours.
Q. So we're into the 50 hours plus that you spent; is that right, sir?
A. In preparation --
Q. 60 hours?
A. In preparation for this testimony?

Q. Right.
A. Most likely, yes.
Q. Now, sir, you and your lawyer, when you began, talked about the meeting with Dr. Tohme at
the polo lounge. Do you remember that?
A. Correct.
Q. And you said that you weren't discussing testimony in this case, correct?
A. I wasn't.
Q. No one was, you said. Do you remember testifying to that, sir?
A. I -- I couldn't speak for everyone because, as you know since you had photographers there, I
wasn't at the lunch the whole time.
Q. Well, we're going to get to that, sir.
A. Okay.
Q. So tell me, it's your testimony under oath that I had photographers there stationed there
Following you and Mr. Putnam? Is that your testimony under oath?
A. No. It's my testimony that you said you did.
Q. No, no. I never said I had anyone there, sir. You said, and Mr. Putnam, that I was following
you and Mr. Putnam. Do you remember that, sir?
Ms. Stebbins: objection; misstates the testimony.
Judge: overruled. Is that what you said?
A. no, that's not my understanding.
Q. Well, let's see what you said, sir.
A. okay.
Q. Let's go look at --
A. that's not what I said, it's what you said.
Q. No, sir. Let's look at what you said. Because I have the transcript. All right?

A. okay.
Q. let's look first at page -- okay. Let's go to page 6805, lines 23 to 28. This is what Mr. Putnam
was questioning you about, sir, your testimony under oath. Okay?
A. Okay.
Q. Now let's take a look at it. Put it up. We can put it up for everyone. This is what you testified?
A. Correct.
Q. "do you have an understanding as to whether you're being followed?" this is when Mr.
Putnam was questioning you. What did you answer, sir?
A. "I might be."
Q. Okay. Next question, "do you have an understanding whether I'm being followed?" Mr.
Putnam. And your answer was?
A. "you could be."
Q. And then you were asked, sir, who was it that you suspected that was following you. Do you
remember that question, sir?
A. Yes, I do.
Q. And who did you say it was?
A. I believe I motioned or pointed to you.
Q. Okay, sir. Do you have any basis to say that, sir?
A. Only because you said it.
Q. That I said I was following you? Okay. I never said that, sir.
A. You said something --
Q. No, I didn't, sir.
A. -- something like that.
Q. Sir, you're familiar with the fact that the polo lounge -- you told us about a lot of people were
In there, right?

A. Correct.
Q. Did you use bad language there referring to Ms. Jackson during that meeting, sir?
A. I don't remember doing that, no.
Q. Did you call Ms. Jackson a word that starts with a b in that meeting, sir?
A. I don't remember doing that.
Q. So you deny that?
A. Yes.
Q. Okay. And, sir, do you know what social media is?
A. Of course.
Q. What is it?
A. It's blogs, it's people communicating with each other.
Q. And -- but you said that I was following you, right, sir?
A. No. You said you were -- had photographs of me at the polo lounge. That's all I was
responding to.
Mr. Panish: okay. Well, let's look at exhibit number 924, dash, 1, sir, and see what -- how
anyone knew that you were at the polo lounge, sir.
Ms. Stebbins: I'm going to object to this. It's hearsay, your honor.
Mr. Panish: it's not being offered for the truth of the matter asserted, your honor.
Judge: let me see.
Mr. Panish: it's being offered to prove that he was there and it was tweeted out exactly
when he was there.
Ms. Stebbins: your honor, I'd ask that Mr. Panish not make speaking objections; and I'd
like a sidebar on this if there's any intent to introduce this clearly hearsay document.
Mr. Panish: this is exactly not offered for the truth. He's already admitted he was there.
He's accused me of following him, as did Mr. Putnam. This is something that was in the
social media. Whether he was there or not, it's not being offered for the truth. This was
posted exactly when this witness, who has accused me, was at the place.

Ms. Stebbins: again, your honor, if we're going to have an extended conversation on this,
I'd like a sidebar.
Judge: okay. Why don't we have a sidebar. Although maybe we should let the jury go early.
Okay? 1:30.
Mr. Panish: no. We don't have court. That's why -- can I just finish this part, your honor?
It will only take a minute. I mean, come on.
Judge: this isn't a negotiation, Mr. Panish. Let's go to sidebar. Maybe it can be resolved.
(the following proceedings were held at sidebar:)
Mr. Panish: Mr. Phillips and Mr. Putnam have accused me of following him. He's admitted he
was there. This is only being offered to show foundation. And I'm going to go further with this in
impeaching him about his misstatements under oath and his perjury. And I'm going to lay even
more, and I'm going to call this witness in to directly impeach him about what he said and what
he discussed. I don't know who this person -- I never met him, didn't follow him at the polo
lounge, I had nothing to do with it. But this was posted, and this was a way to find out. So this
directly goes to knowledge. Whether he was there or not, he's already admitted. So I'm not
offering this for the truth but to show exactly how I could find out where he was; and then I'm
going to show additional information about what happened contrary to what he testified under
oath. And they've been putting hearsay in left and right, "not being offered for the truth of the
matter," and this is not being offered for the truth. It was out there in the public, contrary to his
accusations against me and Mr. Putnam's accusations. And I never followed Mr. Putnam
anywhere. I don't even know where he lives.
Ms. Stebbins: your honor, briefly, the witness never denied going to the polo lounge. He's
multiple times admitted he went there, it was a public place. However, Mr. Panish stated that he
had photographs of their meeting, which led him to speculate -- and he actually didn't state Mr.
Panish on the record. He may have gestured, but I think you stopped him from stating who he
thought might have been following him based on Mr. Panish's statements that he had
photographs of him at the polo lounge. This is A. Hearsay statement, we have no idea who this
person is. It sounds like Mr. Panish intends to introduce a number more of this person's tweets. If
he wants to call Mr. Morgan in and ask him about his observations, I think it's -- it's a side show,
it's not really relevant to any key issues in this matter; but you can't put in someone's twitter
feed. And it's being offered for its truth. It's being offered that he was present at the polo lounge
And someone observed him. Someone else's twitter feed is not admissible evidence unless it's the
person testifying on the stand.

Mr. Panish: no. It's being offered to show an alternative that it was out there. He pointed right at
me and accused me in front of the jury, and Mr. Putnam led him right into it, and it's false, and
he's lying about what he talked about in the meeting, and he's lying about all this stuff, just like
he's been continually committing perjury in this case. And this is not being offered for the
Truth, but it's certainly an alternative how somebody would know where he was. And I never
said the thing that they're accusing me of. I asked him did he have these -- he denied it, then he
changed his tune, and I'm going to prove that he's lying. And this just goes to show another
source that he was there exactly at that time. That's all it's being offered for, and it's clearly
relevant because they were meeting with a key witness in this case, and he denies testifying that
they were discussing this case, which is a lie, that he was saying derogatory things about ms.
Jackson, which is A. Lie, that he was doing all of that.
Ms. Stebbins: your honor, again, if he wants to call this witness and have him testify as to things
he personally heard, that's one thing. Like I said, as of right now, I only have Mr. Panish's word
that Mr. Phillips has testified any way. I personally believe Mr. Phillips' testimony over some
random person on twitter. But he can ask, "were you in a public place? Could other people
observe you? Is it possible someone posted on social media that they observed?" you can't bring
in out-of-court statements by unknown persons for their truth. That's what Mr. Panish is trying to
do.
Mr. Panish: it's not for the truth, and you can tell them it's not for the truth. But this is another
source to clearly see that's out there, despite what Mr. Putnam and him accused me of, and that's
not appropriate.
Judge: I understand why you're upset, but I'm going to sustain the objection. It's being offered
for the truth.
Mr. Panish: it isn't.
Judge: if you're going to call k.m. Morgan, then bring on k.m. Morgan -- or bring him on, I
guess.
Ms. Stebbins: and, obviously, your honor, if they want to bring a witness, we'd like an
opportunity to
Depose them.
Judge: no, no.
Ms. Chang: actually, here's another way. Mr. Panish is already going to be a witness on the
stand.
Mr. Panish: I can call myself.

Ms. Chang: it can also be arranged so that we're back here and don't have to come back -- he
could just ask him first if he's ever seen any twitter feeds, he can refresh his recollection, and "do
you know if there's any other sources to show that?" just so that we don't have any objection or
anything.
Mr. Panish: I'm going to bring this witness in and I'm going to directly impeach his perjury that
he's been doing throughout this case.
(the following proceedings were held in open court, in the presence of the jurors:)
Q. Mr. Phillips, did you point to me and accuse me of following you?
A. No. I responded to you. I responded to what you said.
Q. I wasn't questioning you, sir. Mr. Putnam was questioning you, wasn't he, sir?
A. Yes, he was.
Q. Did you sit there and ask what was another possibility and point directly at me, sir?
A. I don't know if I pointed or nodded, but yes.
Q. You accused me of following you, didn't you, sir?
A. In response to you saying you had pictures of us at the lunch at the --
Q. Sir -- can I ask the witness to please answer the questions? That's only my third question, he's
already not answering.
Judge: okay.
A. the answer is yes.
Q. You accused me of following you, didn't you, sir?
A. Yes.
Q. At the polo lounge?
A. I speculated that you might be.
Q. No. You accused me, sir.

A. Yes.
Judge: he's answered the question, Mr. Panish.
Q. Now, sir, there's a lot of other ways that someone would know that you're at the polo lounge
other than me following you, isn't there, sir?
A. Of course. It's a very public place.
Q. Did you see me there at the polo lounge, sir?
A. I didn't know what you looked like then. You could have been there.
Q. Okay. So you're saying I could have been there at the polo lounge?
A. Anything is possible.
Q. Right. It's also possible that people could write out on twitter that Mr. Randy Phillips was
meeting with a witness, Dr. Tohme, in the polo lounge, right, sir?
A. We picked a very public place, yes.
Q. Yeah. And review that document.
A. This document?
Q. Yes, sir.
A. Yes.
Q. And what is that?
A. It's --
Ms. Stebbins: objection, your honor.
Mr. Panish: I'm just asking what -- it's --
Ms. Stebbins: your honor, it's being used to refresh his recollection only. There can't be
testimony for the document.
Judge: there's no foundation for this from this witness.

Q. Sir, does that refresh your recollection whether or not it was posted that you were at the polo
lounge that day?
A. It doesn't reflect anything. It's the first time Ive ever seen it.
Q. Does that refresh your recollection, sir --
Ms. Stebbins: objection.
Mr. Panish: can I finish the question, please? I've sat here for three days, i've rarely
objected, let
Them do their thing. Now Mr. Putnam has Ms. Stebbins objecting, so can I just try to finish
the question?
Judge: okay. So let him finish the question; then before you answer, let me rule if
There's an objection.
Q. Now, sir, you'll say anything, won't you?
Ms. Stebbins: objection; argumentative.
Judge: that's argumentative, counsel.
A. that's outrageous.
Q. Panish: oh, really?
A. yes.
Q. Well, let's take a look, sir.
Q. First of all, are you still accusing me of following you?
A. I don't know. I don't know.
Q. So you don't know that you're accusing me?
A. I don't know what you're capable of. I don't know.
Q. Do people have cell phones in today's society?
A. Yes.

Q. Do people take videos and photographs of people all the time in today's society?
A. Of course they do.
Q. Do you know if somebody took videotape of you at the polo lounge that day who doesn't even
know me?
A. No.
Q. Do you know if somebody was there that saw you when they were having lunch right next to
you with their mother and heard you cussing about Mrs. Jackson?
A. That never happened.
Q. You deny that you called -- said anything bad about ms. Jackson, right?
A. I don't remember ever saying that.
Q. No, no. You deny it?
A. For this yes or no gotcha thing, yes, I deny it.
Mr. Panish: excuse me, your honor. Could I ask him to answer -- this is no gotcha, sir.
Judge: answer the question.
A. yes.
Q. Do you know what perjury is?
A. Yes, of course.
Q. And by the way, law school, you -- you told us all about what a person most knowledgeable
is,
Didn't you, sir?
A. Correct.
Q. What year in law school did you learn that?
A. I -- law school was 20 something -- what am I saying? -- 30 years ago.

Q. Sir, you didn't even attend two full years of law school, did you?
A. That's correct.
Q. You attended part time for how many semesters?
A. I think six or seven.
Q. Six or seven? You said two years.
A. A semester is two --
Q. There's two semesters in a year.
A. So then it would be three, three semesters.
Q. Three semesters total part time you attended?
A. Pretty much.
Q. And so you went up and told us all about person most knowledgeable, right? About how you
knew that, and you learned that in law school?
Ms. Stebbins: objection; misstates the testimony.
Judge: overruled.
Mr. Panish: right.
Q. You learned that in law school?
A. I learned that from the -- from the PMK at my company.
Q. Who is the PMK at your company?
A. Shawn Trell.
Q. Oh, and what did Mr. Trell tell you about the PMK.?
A. That he -- that he was charged with going and collecting information about this case.
Q. Do you know if there's anything called A. PMK In the state of California?
A. No.

Q. Do you know if Mr. Trell's licensed to practice law in the state of California?
A. I believe he is.
Q. He is? That's your understanding, that your general counsel is licensed as a registered lawyer
in
The state of California?
A. I honestly don't know. I would assume.
Q. You would assume, certainly, that a lawyer in your company would be admitted to the bar in
the state in which he's working, wouldn't you, sir?
A. You're asking me to make an assumption. I would assume, yes.
Q. Well, you've been making a lot of assumptions, haven't you, sir?
Ms. Stebbins: objection; argumentative.
Judge: sustained.
Mr. Panish: all right. Well, let's go back to this PMK.
Q. That's something that you were told so you could testify about it here, right, sir?
Ms. Stebbins: objection --
A. I testified how I was told when I was told.
Q. By Mr. Panish: when were you told?
A. By Mr. Trell months ago.
Q. Months ago. Okay. Is that something that's in a code book?
A. Code book?
Q. Yes. Do you know what a code book is?
A. No.

Q. Well, where does that come from, PMK.? You told us all about it. Where is it found in the law
here in the state of California?
A. I have no idea. It was told to me.
Q. But you were asked what is a PMK and you went into this long explanation like you knew.
You don't know anything about that, do you, sir?
A. Yes, I do. I know what I was told.
Judge: this is getting a little far afield. Let's --
Mr. Panish: okay. Let's go back to the polo --
Judge: no. It's noon. So what is our calendar on Monday? Oh, we have a half day
tomorrow, don't we. And it's morning. Okay. Tomorrow --
Courtroom assistant: everything went off calendar.
Judge: so 9:30. If there's no calendar -- do you think you can get here early tomorrow? 9:00
o'clock tomorrow. Okay. 9:00 o'clock because I don't have A. Calendar. 9:00 o'clock. Thank
you.
(the following proceedings were heard In open court, outside the presence of the jury:)
Ms. Stebbins: before we break, your honor, can we get an estimate of the amount of time
Mr. Panish has for this witness?
Judge: how much --
Mr. Panish: Ive got hours, your honor.
Judge: no, I --
Mr. Panish no, no, no, no. This witness has just gone through a lot of things. Now I have a
lot of questions for him because he's opened up a lot, and he's speculated and assumed a lot
of things, your honor.
Judge: okay. So with all that, what is your time estimate?

Mr. Panish: I don't know.

Judge: because if you don't give me one, I'm going to give you one. Why don't you think
about it and let me know.
Mr. Panish: i'll tell you tomorrow. But I haven't even digested the last multiple hours of his
testimony.
Judge: I get that; so tomorrow morning, let me know.
Ms. Stebbins: just for the record, your honor,
Mr. Panish had multiple days totaling over 12 hours with this witness. Mr. Putnam went
approximately 7, broken over a few days. I don't believe we need to keep him here for days
and days more. The jury has heard his testimony.
Mr. Panish: your honor, he wouldn't answer, and you had to send the jury out when I was
questioning him. He didn't have any problem other than to keep volunteering stuff when
Mr. Putnam was questioning him, and --
Mr. Bloss: we'll have a better idea in the morning.
Mr. Panish: they were going to sidebar. I had one sidebar during his multiple hours, they
had multiple sidebars. So you can't compare the time. This witness --
Judge: I understand.
Mr. Panish: all right. We'll let you know tomorrow.
Judge: I do understand. All I'm trying to get you to do is regroup and come back tomorrow
and tell me.
Mr. Bloss: we will focus on this and do it.
Mr. Panish: and I would like Judge to start telling him to please --
Judge: you ask me and i'll admonish if necessary.
Mr. Panish: all right. That's good.
Ms. Stebbins: thank you, your honor.
End of hearing, half day hearing