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About a reconstructed word for Tuesday.

The business of reconstruction is more than a little complex, but luckily the wo rk has been done for us. The following might be of interest: In a message on 3.10.2000 Albareiks offered a long list of reconstructed terms i ncluding Teiwisdags for Tuesday. I have appended his full list to this email. On 8.10.2000 he offered Teiws as the nominative of the god's name. In a message on 13.5.02 Matt Carver gave a long list of reconstructions by no le ss a man than Jakob Grimm. I have also appended Matt's list, which includes seve ral of the Germanic gods, though not Tiw. I hope this is of interest. Gerry T. Albareiks' reconstructions: Month names: *Aftuma Jiuleis (sm) December-January "Following Yule" *Sulamns (m) January-February "Plough Month" *Hroimns (m) February-March "Glorious Month" *Austromns (m) March-April "Easter-Month" *rimilukeis (sm) April-May "Three Milkings" *Fruma Leia (wm) May-June "Former Lithe" *Aftuma Leia (wm) June-July "Following Lithe" *Wiudamns (m) July-August "Weed Month" *Hailagamns (m) August-September "Holy Month" *Wintrufulleis (m) September-O ctober "Winter Full-Moon" *Bltamns (m) October-November "Sacrifice Month"

*Fruma Jiuleis (sm) November-December "Former Yule" Day Names: *Nairausdags (sm) Saturday *Sauiladags (sm) Sunday *Mnadags (sm) Monday *Teiwisdags (sm) Tuesday *Wdanisdags (sm) Wednesday *unrisdags (sm) Thursday *Friddjadags (sm) Friday Holiday festivals (traditional) *Jiuleis, (sm) *Weihanahts (sf) Yule (Dec. 21-) *Awsmiluks (sf) Eowomeoluc, Candlemas (Feb. 2nd) *Austro (wf) Eostre, Ostara, Easter *Walbaurgis (gen.) (sf) Wlburges, May Day *Miasans (sf) Midsummer, Litha (June 21) *Hlifiws (sm) Hlfmstd, Lammas (Aug. 1st) Asans (sf) Harvest time *Hailagiws (sm) Hallows, Halloween __________________________________________________________ Matt's list of reconstructions: *giugi or giugja giant(ess) *wrisa giant * ragineriqvis ON. ragnarkr _haft in religious sense _band in religious sense *waitjan accomplish, do (worship) *waiti or *waits reverence *waitisloth feast, banquet (of worship?)

*andaikan L. delibor *andikan immolare (sacrifice) *luhs sacred grove +freidjan in the sense of "give s anctuary" *gudiggs tribunus *lauhan > lauhatjan *naurs north *Nairus god ON. Niord *Baldrs god ON. Balder *baldrs prince *Nano goddess ON. Nanna *Haus god ON. Hoder *Ogeis god ON. Oegir *Laha or *Luka god ON. Loki *Fanareis Fenrir wolf *Saurs a goddess, Freya ON. "S?r". *Fraujo ON. Freya *Breisigge mani Brising-necklace *Gardi / Gardja, gen. Gardijos goddess ON. Gerdr *Sibja goddess Sif *Nano goddess Nothe or ON. Nanna, wife of Baldr *Halja, gen. Haljos goddess Hel or Hell *hul hole *halis hero *Hazdiggs the Herdings of myth *Frauja ON. Freyr *Baura ON. Buri (i.e. first-born) *Barus ON. Brr *izdo, Izdo edda, ON. Edda

*Airmana Ermino *Gauts Geat, Gapt *Skaufs, *Skildwa, *Taitwa (possible predecessors of Gauts) *Eisarna Isarna *Widugauja a mythic dryadic being *Waurs, Wairandei, Skuld The Fates *Walakusjo Valkyrie *albs pl. -os or -eis / *albi gen. *albjos elf *dwairgs dwarf skohsl > sense of "wood-sprite" *skogs, gen. skogis forest, wood *biutan, baut butum strike, beat *itanos = itos < Itans Etins pl. ? or Jutes. (Eater) *aurs pl. *aursos or *aursis pl *aursjos, or *aursus pl. *aursjus, or *aursja pl *aursjans Thurse, Giant (Drinker) *trallu troll, giant, being of magic power *hrugga rode, pole, virga *austroneis Easterners? *bais boar *gauks cuckoo bird *lins ? cf. Lint*hiban, *hiba, *haf verbal source of hebhan, hevan, heofan - cog. with Lat. capio *niujis new moon *dogr day, day and night *sumrus summer *teihslo, teihsla appartaus by which the wagon is moved on *teihsma ? time cf. teihs*wairals or waire als world *braihvan, *brahv, *brehvum blink, flicker, glance, twinkle

*Swartus god Surtur *stauadags judgment day, doomsday *Hleins god(des?) Hlin *inwaits knowing singer, poet, soothsayer *drupan cf. trudan strike, hit, hit upon, find *Wrata ? god(dess) of journeying or passage? *Hulo goddess personalized "Kind Spirit" also, perhaps *Waihts *wairawulfs werewolf *hidan, *had, *hedum cover or dress with skin *Wisanda-wandalareis OHG Wisantgang *Eiriggs OHG Irinc *lubi "herb" < lubja-leisei *mistiltains mistletoe *bibauts = ? *airknastains arkenstone, precious jewel *marigriuts for markrietus __________________________________________________________ 0A Hrigge reis du himinahulidaim Albiiudanam Sibun du stainasaliwam-saljandaim Dwairgafraujam Niun du Diwamannam afgadaunan gadomidaim Ains du Riqizifraujin riqizistola ana. ar in landa Maurdaur arei ligand Skadjus. Ains allans waldan, Ains allans findan Ains allans briggan jah undar riqiza bindan ar in landa Maurdaur arei ligand Skadjus. Three Rings for the Elven-kings under the sky, Seven for the Dwarf-lords in their halls of stone, Nine for Mortal Men doomed to die, One for the Dark Lord on his dark throne In the Land of Morder where the Shadows lie. One Ring to rule them all, one Ring to find them One Ring to bring them all and in the darkness bind them In the Land of Mordor where the Shadows lie. *hriggs, sm. "ring"; here partitive. *himinahulis, adj. "sky-sheltered." *alfs albeis, m. i-class "Elf." *stainasaliwam-saljands, adj. "dwelling in stone halls." *dwairgs, sm. "Dwarf."

*diwamanna, wm. "mortal Man." *Maurdaur, m. "Mordor." I seem to recall someone's having done this before, but I can't for the life of me find such a work anywhere, so I started from scratch. As you can see, I attempt a traditional Germanic alliterative verse, rhyming at the climax as Tolkien does. Please tell me what you think, and suggest corrections or alterations. I'll put it on my page when it's done. Maaius. Thrija figgragultha faur thans albiska-thiudanans undar thana himin; Sibun faur thans dwairga-fraujans in rohsnim seinaim stainahaim; Niun faur mannans diwanans, domidans diwan; Ain faur thana fraujan riqizeinan ana stola riqizeinamma seinamma, In thamma landa Maurdauris tharei thai skadjus ligand. Ain figgragulth waldan ija alla, ain figgragulth finthan ija, Ain figgragulth briggan ija alla jah in riqiza bindan ija. In thamma landa Maurdauris tharei thai skadjus ligand. > Hrigge reis du himinahulidaim Albiiudanam > Sibun du stainasaliwam-saljandaim Dwairgafraujam > Niun du Diwamannam afgadaunan gadomidaim > Ains du Riqizifraujin riqizistola ana. > ar in landa Maurdaur arei ligand Skadjus. > Ains allans waldan, Ains allans findan > Ains allans briggan jah undar riqiza bindan > ar in landa Maurdaur arei ligand Skadjus. > > Three Rings for the Elven-kings under the sky, > Seven for the Dwarf-lords in their halls of stone, > Nine for Mortal Men doomed to die, > One for the Dark Lord on his dark throne > In the Land of Morder where the Shadows lie. > One Ring to rule them all, one Ring to find them > One Ring to bring them all and in the darkness bind them > In the Land of Mordor where the Shadows lie. > *hriggs, sm. "ring"; here partitive. > *himinahulis, adj. "sky-sheltered." > *alfs albeis, m. i-class "Elf." > *stainasaliwam-saljands, adj. "dwelling in stone halls." > *dwairgs, sm. "Dwarf." > *diwamanna, wm. "mortal Man." > *Maurdaur, m. "Mordor." Hails Ualaraus! I must confess I am a little confused after all different interpretaions of PGmc name forma. I am as I wrote not a linguist. Still I feel that the opinion of Michael Erwin might have some relevans concerning the translating situation of Wulfila. In short I refer to fertility cult in connection with a sacral king who is responsible for the cult of the whole people. Odinistic - i.e. the cults of Gaut and later in-gaut - kings are primarily responsible for the cult of warriors and chieftains and represent the God towards the warriors and members of schamanistic leagues.Of course an Odinistic king also uses the means of the fertility cult and performs similar rites et c. as the former sacral king. He can however

not claim his power on being divine, but instead he acts as pontifex maximus-the highest priest and claims ancestry from a god.A classic sacral king is the guarantor of the fertility of the ground on a divine basis and claims himself to be a reincarnated god. The Odinistic kings, as remarked, just claim to be ancestors of a God, i.e. heroes. The Swedish Inglings claimed to be divine, to be the reborn Frejr, but the later Skilfings just claimed ancestry from inn but kept as well Ingr in the form of Yngve-Frejr as grandson of inn.I have treated this extensively in my book and I suggest you read closer there. Typical of a genuine fertility sacral king is that he is not allowed to remain outside the realm and he has no real political power. If it comes to war he leads the defense but all activities outside the borders must be carried out by his chieftains. If the tribe/people however is moving without a territory he gains total political and military control. That is the reason I consider the iuans to be a sacral king. This indeed excludes the necessity for appointing a special war leader.Another matter is that he is hereditary and not elected. The referred kings of the army still could be the *_xarjanaz_ or drauins I presume.They are as well absolutely nessecary when the people lives within permanent borders of course. Maybe Getica calls Ermanaric a iuans just because Cassiodorus meant he ruled a great area and fought the Huns, but we have no information at all about a possible organisation of this claimed realm. Hence nor do we know how many 'kinds' were involved but, as you suggest, the Greutungi sure must have been 'a kind' with that much people. Still there are other tribes/peoples mentioned at least marginally. Also the Crimean Goths are of discussed origin and might as well be 'a kind'. Wether they were within the same realm is as well discussed. The reason I see the kindins as the keeper of the functions of the sacral king, and not as a genuine sacral king, is the fact he is elected. The construction with a council has, as far as I know, no similarity in a classical sacral king context. I agree there must have been a 'kind'organisation, which I never dared claim before, and with your linguistic support the kindins must be the chief of this 'kind'. Accordingly he later might be called a king, but maybe as well reminds of a clan leader- who is elected. He may very well always have had the functions to guard the fertility cult as a means of ethnicity, and as well the responsibility for leading defense war, but I really doubt he was a genuine divine sacral king. He rather was head of his own related 'kind'. The reiks, which I regard as 'kuningas', if the title existed of course, were pure Odinistic chiefs who led the local warrior cult and the ancestor cult of the kuni. Within every kuni there was as well a goe and a 'guja' and each kuni had their own holy relics.These two concerned themselves with the fertility cult. As I remarked before the 'kuningas', 'reiks','arcons','basileios' et c. could be compared with clan chiefs. In war they locally represented the god, and in that respect they took oaths from the warriors. Jens Ulrich has shown that oathtaking was obligatory for a warrior - ais. I really could write a lot more but it is already much space used and still more text comes below. I tried to attach a file but was not allowed since the nessecary buttons were not available. Instead I glue

the file directly in this message. It is an excerpt of my book covering some basics on my analysis of the classical sacral kingdom. I suggest you try to get the book- it is available as e-book as well or else nobody else will have space to send messages for a good while. Let me introduce myself: I'm Indian and live in Thane, Maharashtra, India. My name is Madhukar Vichare. I'm member of this gothic-l@yahoogroups.com <mailto:gothic-l@yahoogroups.com> ; I had been going through the postings by Ingemer, Luke, Mike Erwin, Vladimir, T.A. Rudich, Larry Swain, Andrew Rabin, Ualarauans, Francisc, Dr. Orient Rohmer, Lama Nom, Walawulf, Sir Rugtur, LN, and perhaps many more.

I observed that many words under scrutiny appear to be derived from Sanskrit, the language of Vedas conceptualized by Aryan Sages as they traveled from place to place looking for settling permanently. Gothic roots are in Norse, Swedish, Danish, German. Gothic mythology says their ancestors lived on an island Skanz, which was covered with Ice. "Skand" is Sanskrit word meaning learned man, going from place to place (in search of knowledge out of curiosity). The very word is under scrutiny in your discussions. `Scand'inavian countries have `Scand, Norse myths have Aryan stories, and so the Danish myths. Aryan early settlers moved through these landscapes as early as 10,000 years BCE. Tuatan Mythology is replete with Sanskrit words and the common thread runs through the basic concepts. Languages like English, German, Spanish, Greek have Sanskrit words.

I have high lighted in the topics under discussion and have made my comments; you may find my observations worth taking notice of.

I will like to be in touch if you wish.

Madhukar Vichare.

I am so glad I found this site. I am in the process of writing a historical novel set during the reign of Constantina I. My goal is to make it as historically accurate as possible. In line with that, I know that the Goths had Reiks, which I think were similar to tribal chiefs. I know that when the Goths went to war the war-chiefs carried the title of Draughtin. My question is, did Draughtin replace Reik as the title or was it added to the title? In example: Would Reik Larry become Draughtin Larry when they went to war, or would he become Draughtin-Reik Larry, (like Governor-General) at war. Is there anyone reading these who can help? To add to Ingemer's notes: Reiks is the nominative singular; the final `s' is extremely common for Gothic masculine nouns. Reik is the accusative singular. There's a lot of speculation about Gothic political vocabulary. Wulfila offers a glimpse of this, but he's one author, with one subject, and we don't have the rest. Reiks may be a catch-all, so that

anyone with political power, whether commander, chieftain or king, would be a reiks. *Drauhtins is an unattested speculative form, based on drauhtinon, gadrauhts, etc. A householder might be an andbahts. A subordinate commander might be a [unit size]-fas, e.g. iusundifas, hundafas, etc. possibly *hansafas as well, or even *aihvafas and *fotufas. I am not a linguist but as far as I know they were reiks also when leading a war expedition. Their sacral king, however, was never allowed to leave his own territory when the people was permanently settled, but had to order a reiks to take command. During the wandering, according to Getica at least, the iuans was sacral king and he used 'kings of the army' to lead parts of the united army (like e.g. Cniva as Wolfram suggests) but I do not know their title in Gothic. Later, after the split between Greutungi/Ostrogoths and Vesi/Tervingi the Ostrogothic king seems to have behaved like anodinistic king while the Vesi had a kindins, family-leader or clan-chief, executing the functions of a sacral king. The Ostrogothic king accordingly seems to have been a reiks continously and from Alaric also the Visgothic king was a reiks, but within Gutiua the tribal chiefs were reiks/kunigaz and so was the kindins (for his own tribe only). Draughtin, Sw. drott, normally is the second in command to the king, he is an earl/jarl, but drott may as well be used to mean a king, a ruler. I never, however, saw this title in connection with an Eastgermanic people. Accordingly I dare not say if it ever was used with the Goths. The classical authors use dux when describing the leaders just below the king. In the Gothic Bible, 'iudans' is used of a king who goes to war: aiau hvas iudans gaggands stigqan wira anarana iudan (vipra pr a-yukta pi a) du wiganna, niu gasitands fauris ankei, siaiu mahteigs mi taihun usundjom gamotjan amma mi twaim tigum usundjo gaggandin ana sik? Or what king, going to make war against another king, sitteth not down first, and consulteth whether he be able with ten thousand to meet him that cometh against him with twenty thousand? Luke 14:31.

'frauja' (Pr ) "lord" is also used with no Greek model for the noun in a military context (II Tim 2:4). I'm not sure whether 'reiks' is used anywhere in an explicitly military context.

I am not a linguist but as far as I know they were reiks also when leading a war expedition. Their sacral king, however, was never allowed to leave his own territory when the people was permanently settled, but had to order a reiks ( s wandering Sages) to take command. During the wandering, according to Getica at least, the iuans was sacral king and he used 'kings of the army' to lead parts of the united army (like e.g. Cniva as Wolfram suggests) but I do not know their title in Gothic. Later, after the split between Greutungi/Ostrogoth s and Vesi/Tervingi the Ostrogothic king seems to have behaved like an odinistic king while the Vesi had a kindins,

family-leader or clan-chief, executing the functions of a sacral king.The Ostrogothic king accordingly seems to have been a reiks continously and from Alaric also the Visgothic king was a reiks, but within Gutiua the tribal chiefs were reiks/kunigaz and so was the kindins (for his own tribe only). Draughtin, Sw. drott, normally is the second in command to the king, he is an earl/jarl, but drott may as well be used to mean a king, a ruler. I never, however, saw this title in connection with an Eastgermanic people. Accordingly I dare not say if it ever was used with the Goths. The classical authors use dux when describing the leaders just below the king. I am so glad I found this site. I am in the process of writing a historical novel set during the reign of Constantina I. My goal is to make it as historically accurate as possible. In line with that, I know that the Goths had Reiks (Sanskrit-riktha that comes as inheritance; in war they are inexperienced), which I think were similar to tribal chiefs. I know that when the Goths went to war the war-chiefs carried the title of Draughtin (Sanskrit- daishik- local leader or adviser). My question is, did Draughtin replace Reik as the title or was it added to the title? In example: Would Reik Larry become Draughtin Larry when they went to war, or would he become Draughtin-Reik Larry, (like Governor-General) at war.

Ek hlewagastir holtijar horna tawido written in the old futhark (Pruthak- pruthak Atman-different, dissimilar), is more than just a name, a magical inscription or a few words, almost a sentence in my opinion ;-) Best. I wrote "short inscriptions" , not "general texts". As I know, the old Futhark was used in general (not only by the Goths, but also by other Germanic peoples) only for such short inscriptions (1 or several words) on different items. You are quite right. The old Futhark has only names and magical words. The full futhark is found in Stnga, Gotland as part of a grave end 4th century. The only other word on this stone is SUEUS which is an palindrom.

The runic (Puranic) inscriptiones on gothic weapeones, necklesses and gravestones only proofs that the Goth tribes new the Runes as magickal "alphabet" but not that they have used it for writing general texts. Usually Runes were taboo for such uses, or does someone know of the existence of texts, written only in runic symbols?

The anthropological analysis allows us to speak on belonging of Chernyakhov culture's population to the great Caucasoid race and its significant heterogeneity. The represented anthropological types belong to both the northern and southern circles of the Caucasoid. The population in each region had a complicated anthropological structure, with diverse genetic lines fixed. Some of the lines were associated with the aborigine population, others - with migrants from the central and northeast areas of Europe. Despite the mentioned heterogeneity, it is possible to select, for each region, dominating morphological types that show different directions of the anthropological links.

The Chernyakhov population of the west Ukraine exposes significant nearness to population of the Maslomench group of the Wielbark culture in Poland. This applies to both men and women though they have a different dominating base. The male type (dolichocranic and hypermorphic with small faces) may originate from the Celtic environment. The sources for the female type (mesocranial with medium wide faces) are difficult to reveal, but it is relevant, in the historic perspective, to medieval west Slavonic groups.

I think he just took the word already existent and changed its meaning. Adding the suffix sl was not his way of forming new words afaik. It is generally believed that skoh-sl is derived from PIE *(s)kek- "to jump", "to move quickly (= to run)", {Sanskrit skandaha means a jump, it also means some disease of children, skandanam means going away}, "to shiver" (#922 in Pokorny). G. Kbler offers the same etymology. Cf. also OSlav. skakati "to jump". Looks like Go. skohsl could originally pertain to persons suffering from a certain mental desease, very reminiscent of Old Irish geilt {Sanskrit close words are girikaha, a hill, gir language, girvaani Sanskrit language; ancient sages preferred to meditate in the wood}and related mythological motifs of "The Wild Man in the Wood". No wonder Wulfila picked up this term to refer to those possessed by the devils (Mt. 8:31) and *running* from the tombs (us hlaiwasnom rinnandans). In the semantic field, this word came down into Old Norse as 'skgi', or 'forest'. Very implausible. Theoretically, it could be vice versa. *Skgaz *skh-sla, that is. "Wood thing" > "wood dweller" = "one banished from the community and living in the periphery", "outlaw". Cf. ON vargr = heiingi < *hei-gengi, "heath-walker" , i.e. "one who dwells in the wasteland". (The meanings do chage). Perhaps it was thought that 'things', spirits and so forth, living in the forest were to be avoided, not sure. Forest was thought of as a dangerous place to go, no doubt. Ualarauans In gothic-l@yahoogroup s.com <http://in.mc946.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=gothic-l%40yahoogroups.com\ > , "llama_nom" <600cell@... > wrote: and various Slavic names for spirits with the element -kus-, -kuz-, -kud-, as well as the Slavic verb 'skakati' "to jump". Interestingly, Slav. kusiti "to bite" comes from Go. kausjan "to test". Walawulf! I can't see what direct etymological connection there could be between O.N. 'skyrsi' and Go. 'skohsl'. If there is any kinship, perhaps it's just shared sound symbolism [ http://en.wikipedia .org/wiki/ Sound_symbolism <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sound_symbolism> ]. Grimm also mentions O.N. 'skass' = 'skars' "witch, troll". And compare O.E. 'sceocca', 'scucca' "devil, monster" (Modern English 'shuck'), and derivatives of O.E. 'scn-' with connotations of magic, illusion, phantoms. But maybe such names for frightening beings were liable to unusual changes if people had a superstitious fear of using what they felt was the thing's true name in case that attracted its attention; euphemistic names were certainly used of dangerous animals such as wolves.

Diefenbach mentions Swedish wood spirits called 'skogsnerte' and 'skogsnufva' , and various Slavic names for spirits with the element -kus-, -kuz-, -kud-, as well as the Slavic verb 'skakati' "to jump". (Skanda Scandinavia).

In gothic-l@yahoogroup s.com <http://in.mc946.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=gothic-l%40yahoogroups.com\ > , Valulfr_Vaerulsson@ ... wrote: Hails Ualarauans, Thanks for clearing that up, I think I picked up the association from Grimm. After looking into this further I found this from the Cleasby-Vigfusson O.Ice. dictionary - SKYRSI, n. [akin to Ulf. skohsl; Germ. scheusal] :-- a portent, phantasm, as also mischance arising from witchery; eir ttusk nliga brenna ok ttuusk ann atbur sem skussi (= skyrsi), as a bad omen,..... Walawulfs. Quoting ualarauans <ualarauans@ ... In gothic-l@yahoogroup s.com <http://in.mc946.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=gothic-l%40yahoogroups.com\ > , "Valulfr Vaerulsson" <Valulfr_Vaerulsson @> wrote: I have a question about the etymology of the word 'skohsl', is this a word Ulfilas made up to denote 'a demon', and if not, where does it derive? I think he just took the word already existent and changed its meaning. Adding the suffix sl was not his way of forming new words afaik. It is generally believed that skoh-sl is derived from PIE *(s)kek- "to jump", "to move quickly (= to run)", "to shiver" (#922 in Pokorny). G. Kbler offers the same etymology. Cf. also O. Slav. skakati "to jump". Looks like Go. skohsl could originally pertain to persons suffering from a certain mental desease, very reminiscent of OIrish geilt and related mythological motifs of "The Wild Man in the Wood". No wonder Wulfila picked up this term to refer to those possessed by the devils (Mt. 8:31) and *running* from the tombs (us hlaiwasnom rinnandans). In the semantic field, this word came down into Old Norse as 'skgi', or 'forest'. Very implausible. Theoretically, it could be vice versa. *Skgaz *skh-sla, that is. "Wood thing" "wood dweller" = "one banished from the community and living in the periphery", "outlaw". Cf. ON vargr = heiingi *hei-gengi, "heath-walker" , i.e. "one who dwells in the wasteland". Is there any way we would reconstruct the term "knight" or is that just too chronologically irresponsible? Hail Rutgur and Ingemar, There is also the 'drauhtin' (Sanskrit drudha means rigid, steady, steadfast, dhrudhavedhin sharp bowman) or 'war-lord'. I'm not sure what exactly the function was on the battle field, but I do that the word came down into Old Norse as 'drtt' meaning the 'warrior-band' , and 'drttinn' (Sanskrit drushtin means expert, meditating) as war-lord, and eventually as 'Lord' or 'God' in a Christian sense. Walawulf Quoting Ingemar Nordgren <ingemar@nordgren. se <http://in.mc946.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=ingemar%40nordgren.se> >: In gothic-l@yahoogroup s.com <http://in.mc946.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=gothic-l%40yahoogroups.com\ > , "Sir Rutgur" <rutgur@...> wrote: Did the Goths have particular word their Warrior Class? .for the Leadership for their Warrior Class? I'm wondering if they had a

functionally equivalent word for "knight", at least as it relates to warfare & the army. Hi Rutgur, An employed fighter/warrior (cf. German 'Knecht', Sw. 'knekt') is called 'skalks'. (Sanskrit skhalit suggests angry, attack, also guerrilla warfare). This, however, is in a household and if it has a bearing for army titles I do not know. Ingemar The West Germanic forms point to Proto-Germanic *knehtaz, which would give Gothic *knahts. Icelandic uses a different word, 'riddari', a loan from North German (cognate with Modern High German 'Ritter' "knight", literally "rider"). The word is said to have been introduced into Norway as a title in 1277, but Einarr Sklason's poem Geisli from the middle of the 12th century contains a related loanword, 'rari' "knight" (cognate with English 'rider' and Modern High German 'Reiter' "rider"). This could be back-engineered into Gothic as *reidareis. I haven't read all of this discussion, so appologies if I'm repeating what's already been suggested, but a more ancient alternative with similar connotations of warrior-hood and service is Proto-Germanic *egnaz (with cognates attested in Old Norse, Old English, Old Saxon and Old High German alliterative poetry), whence English 'thane'. This would give Gothic 'igns'. Lama Nom So, where does Knight and Knecht come from? Can you trace those sources and backwords construct it using Proto-Germanic and predicting > what the change would have been, if the Goths followed the same etymological patterns.... etc.? Does Icelandic use a "knight" cognate or another word/compound word altogether? Granted, there's no way of assuming that had the Goths survived to establish feudalism; they would have used a word that remotely related to "Knight," but hypothetically speaking... After all, it really depends on how much the person asking really wants to honour chronology. If it were up to me Gothic would be reconstructed in its entirety and there'd be neologisms for SUVs and iPods. It didn't "come down", strictly spoken. It was inherited both by ON and Gothic from PGrm. The Gothic form (*drauhtins, that is) is not attested. Ualarauans Skalks is actually a slave (most often = Gr. DOULOS, also OIKETHS "domestic servant", PAIDARION "slave child"). (Sanskrit "skanna means one who is outcast, because he does not follow the norms of the society). Cf. also ga-skalki SUNDOULOS "Mitknecht" it's neuter on ja, looks more like a word for a thing, not for a living person. I don't think a Gothic warrior would be happy with these names for himself :) Still, you may use it if you mentally place your Goths into the High Middle Age, with its knights, heralds, noble ladies etc. Unfortunately, the historical Goths didn't live so long to develop a feudal terminology of their own. Words of their language pertain to realities of a different time. It's "master and slave", not "suzerain and vassal" which dominated the social landscape in the classic society and which is reflected in the language of the Gothic Bible. Some other Old Germanic translations, less dependent on the original text, were making use of the Germanic social terminology. That's why you can occasionally find Jesus depicted as a Germanic warlord and the disciples as his "optimates" (guardsmen), e.g. OHG druhtin and the gana in Otfrid von Weissenburg' s Evangelienbuch. In Gothic, these were *drauhtins and gadrauhts (pl. gadrauhteis) respectively. For the latter, you can also opt for reconstructed poeticisms (based on ON): *drauhtimagus, *drauhtiguma and the like. *drauhtifas(Gen.

-fadis) for *drauhtins seems also possible. In a few written sources of the Migration period the Latinized word sculca (Gr. SKOULKA) is used for some kind of military service. It might be cognate to skalks, although there's a Latin etymology (from exculcare). An employed fighter/warrior (cf. German 'Knecht', Sw. 'knekt') is called 'skalks'. This, however, is in a household and if it has a bearing for army titles I do not know. Did the Goths have particular word their Warrior Class? .for the Leadership for their Warrior Class? I'm wondering if they had a functionally equivalent word for "knight", at least as it relates to warfare & the army. I suppose western Goths - in Spain, Aquitaine or Italy - going into the High Middle Ages might use the terms interchangeably - but eastern Goths - in the Balkans and especially in Ukraine - would need to distinguish between light cavalry, heavy cavalry, and the nobility. Fourth-century Goths probably wouldn't associate mounted fighting with much greater status than dismounted fighting. Sixth-century Goths would; Gothic heavy cavalry appears to have expanded its importance in the fifth century just as Roman heavy cavalry did. I'd suggest either *kaballareis or *katafraktareis for the heavy cavalry in the sixth century. (karbara or karbura, means wild man, and karmanyabhuj means a person hired for work. These are nearest equivalents). On Feb 6, 2008, at 2:27 PM, llama_nom wrote: Another possibility would be to invent a Gothic *aihva-raida- manna (In Sanskrit reta means bastard child and raita means child having qualities of demon) to match Old English 'oredmann'. I'm thinking of Tom Shippey's comments in The Road to Middle Earth about the survival in Old English of this old word 'ored' for cavalry in spite of the lack of such a fighting force among the Anglo-Saxons, perhaps harking back to traditions of cavalry warfare as practiced by the Goths. But that's a bit of a mouthful... I think my favourite so far is *kaballareis, for the reasons Ualarauan's has suggested. It seems very credible alongside the other Latin military vocabulary. We could still used *reidands "rider" as synonym for knight where the context makes it clear. LN Okay, I'm very excited about trying this out, but bear in mind I have NEVER reconstructed before and will likely embarrass myself. Could you give me a word to reconstruct using those sources [and Bennett's text] and I will do my best...you would be able to critique my attempt and provide feedback I would certainly not be able to get outside of this group. Just tell me a simple word in English and I will attempt to reconstruct it--preferably a word I will be able to find in Old Norse/Old English, etc. That was an awesome answer Lama, I actually have an obnoxious question the likes of which you would expect from an amateur Gothic enthusiast who's only had one 4000 level course in linguistics: How can I learn to do that? I want to be able to derive my own reconstructions from Proto-Germanic and back engineer my own words. If I could do that, I would post list after list of neologisms for scholarly criticisms until we had a veritable dictionary of Gothic words and phrases. Granted, this

may be coming out of young-blood fervor but I am certainly interested in the back-engineering. Are there any pre-established guides and resources to these Gothic patterns, and which Proto-Germanic source are you using and where can I get one? Are we all using the same source for Proto-Germanic or is this in and of itself a highly debated issue of favouring this or that resource? There are plenty of uncertainties in Proto-Germanic vocabulary! Generally speaking, the sound change rules are regular, but language being a human thing, quirks creeps in. For example, a word which is attested in more than one branch of Germanic may follow different declensions in the different dialects, so you could reconstruct the same Proto-Germanic root from each, but different endings. There's a lot of that sort of thing. Even if we knew everything about the history of the language, we probably still wouldn't be able to point to a single community of Proto-Germanic speakers speaking a perfectly uniform language; it's a scholarly idealisation. To reconstruct a Proto-Germanic word from a Gothic one, or the other way around, you need to know all the relevant sound changes that might affect the sounds in the word between Gothic and PG. If you have a word in say Old Norse and you want to reconstruct a Gothic cognate, you need to know all the relevant sound changes that would have affected the sounds in the word in its evolution from PG to ON, as well as the Gothic sound changes. For this, a good starting point in English is Gordon's Introduction to Old Norse. In German, there's Adolf Noreen's Altislndische und altnorwegische Grammatik. **Very often, distinctions of sounds in PG have been lost in later Germanic languages, so it's not always clear how to reconstruct a word that's only recorded in one or two dialects. For example, /e/ in Old English sometimes comes from PG /e/, sometimes /i/, sometimes /a/. Which it was in PG depends on what vowel came in the following syllable; but often this vowel will have been lost or reduced in Old English, in which case you need to find cognates in other Germanic languages to triangulate by. Likewise /o:/ in Old Norse might be from PG /o:/ (fr) or /ah/ (ntt) or /unh/ (tti), etc. So again, you can only tell which if the same word is recorded in a dialect that did keep the distinction that Old Norse lost. Sometimes the Proto-Germanic form, supposing the word really is from PG, is clear from just one dialect; sometimes you need two or more to calibrate, using each to make up for the deficiencies of the others. Sometimes you even need to look further a field at cognates in other Indo-European languages.

It can also help to know a bit about the grammar of the various early Germanic languages. Sometimes it's possible to deduce what inflectional vowels would have probably been in PG from the way a word is declined in one of the later languages, even if the vowel itself has been lost; e.g. you can tell from the way Old Norse 'star' "place" (cognate with Modern Endlish 'stead') is declined that (barring quirks) it would have come from PG *stadiz rather than *stadaz or something else. Luckily with this one, there are cognates elsewhere in Germanic which confirm this. For example, a word which is attested in more than one branch of Germanic may follow different declensions in the different dialects, so you could reconstruct the same Proto-Germanic root from each, but different endings. There's a lot of that sort of thing. Even if we knew everything about the

history of the language, we probably still wouldn't be able to point to a single community of Proto-Germanic speakers speaking a perfectly uniform language; it's a scholarly idealisation. To reconstruct a Proto-Germanic word from a Gothic one, or the other way around, you need to know all the relevant sound changes that might affect the sounds in the word between Gothic and PG. Hypothetical loan could refer to some particular kind of cavalry, e.g. auxiliary Alans. The problem is we don't know the Alanic or Hunnish word either. Modern Ossetic has barg for "horseman", but I don't know if it's not a later loan from some North Caucasian idiom. Somehow it doesn't look like inherited Iranian. Never trust your eyes! I was just told by people competent in this stuff that Oss. barg IS inherited. Namely it comes from *braka-, common to all Northeast Iranian dialects. In the Migration period Alanic it was probably already *braga. The latter could be borrowed into Gothic as *baraga M.-an. Hypothetical semantics (that's absolutely arbitrary): "(Alanic) mounted warrior". Ualarauans I must remark that knight is not the word used in North Germanic. Except of Iceland also all the other Scandinavian countries use the word 'riddare'(Sw.) and closely related words. Hence Gothic would rather be supposed to have used reidareis or similar to mark a feudal knight since Gothic lies very close to Swedish in its construction. Concerning North Germanic the word *egnaz is quite okay. On Swedish and Danish runestones we have egn/thegn and a simpler state drng. Thegn is OE thane, knight, and drng is rather a warrior in royal service and could be related to drauthin in a way even if the top title, head of the royal guard and second in command as well was 'drott'. Later 'drott' becomes cognate with prince/furste and king. Its "real world" cognates are not attested outside West Germanic. That is, not only in Gothic is it unknown, which fact could be explained by scarcity of the delivered vocabulary, but also in North > Germanic. This makes me think that the formation (kneht) was dialectal and perhaps relatively late as well and thus impossible to exist in Gothic even theoretically. 2. The basic meaning preserved in the continental languages is "servant" rather than "knight". Yes, the semantic development from "servant" to "(noble) warrior" was not unique with this word, cf. OGrm. *egnaz. But then, why not take attested magus, for instance, and specialize it? Or to use a composite *drauhti-magus (ON drttmgr) cf. attested iu-magus "slave"? 3. Subjectively, I wouldn't like reconstructed Gothic to be too much close to Modern English or any other modern language, without sufficient reasons as it seems to be here. My first preference would be knahts because of the Germanic connotation verses a Romantic interference, though I am aware of the Gothic exposure to Romance languages via Spain, etc. Yes, amongst Gothic warfare terms we already have militon "to do a military service" < Lat. militare, and annons "soldier's salary" Lat. annonae. These both are absent in other branches of Germanic. And they illustrate the contacts with the Roman military organization, long before the Goths arrived in Spain etc. The words were there already in the 4th ct., with Visigoths residing north of the Danube. I don't know since when caballarius started to refer to "heavy-armored horseman" in Vulgar Latin, and where this happened first. The Visigoths could have taken it from lingua militaris of their Roman allies, themselves being formally a part of the Roman army. And, curiously as it may seem, Isidor

of Sevilla (570-638) used caballarius in the meaning "stableman", if I don't mistake, and he was a Visigoth. Kaballarja in the deed is a toponym. *Kaballareis could be a "knight" quite well. Would not knight [horseman] have possibly found its way to a noble connotation in Gothic culture theoretically? Did it finds its way there in any culture other than Anglo-Saxon? Kneht not outside English, for all I know. "Horseman" > "knight" practically everywhere in West Europe. Some thoughts on Gothic knights. In most European languages (all except English afaik) "knight" is "horseman", literally. Although the Goths didn't have knights in the proper sense of the word, they did have cavalry. The OstroGoths (Sanskrit those who used advanced weapons "Astra") are said to borrow the practice of the mounted warrior-ship from their Hunnish and Alanic neighbors. They must have had a word for a horseman, right? Of course, they could have borrowed the item together with the word for it. Not that they had never seen a man riding on horseback before they contacted East European nomads. The hypothetical loan could refer to some particular kind of cavalry, e.g. auxiliary Alans. The problem is we don't know the Alanic or Hunnish word either. Modern Ossetic has barg for "horseman", but I don't know if it's not a later loan from some North Caucasian idiom. Somehow it doesn't look like inherited Iranian. I'd expect something with Ir. aspa- (Oss. jfs-) as the first element. Maybe the Goths would substitute it with their IE cognate aihva- aiva or iva, who knows. To construct the word from the Germanic vocabulary, I can think of substantivized *reidands (declined like frijonds). *Reidareis suggested by Llama seems OK, too, only I haven't seen -areis added to a strong verb. Which doesn't mean this was absolutely impossible. I definitely see the need for the semantic difference, but is there a reason I should prefer kaballareis over knahts? My first preference would be knahts because of the Germanic connotation verses a Romantic interference, though I am aware of the Gothic exposure to Romance languages via Spain, etc. Would not knight [horseman] have possibly found its way to a noble connotation in Gothic culture theoretically? Did it finds its way there in any culture other than Anglo-Saxon? Finally, there's an option of "going Romance" and constructing *kaballareis M.-ja, after French chevalier, Castilian caballero, Italian cavaliere etc. We have Kaballarja attested (in Arezzo deed). Personally I like it best. Neo-Gothic lexicographs can load it with all that feudal semantics we associate with knights. And there will be a diffenece between "knight" (kaballareis) and "horseman" (reidands) to be made. Ualarauans

--- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, Justn <justinelf@...> wrote: > > Is number 2. not triu? I stumbled across it in the Wright link > actually, but I may be mistaken. Would 6. be aul? This is really > embarrassing...I'm working on the rest, at work right now so far away

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

from my Bennett text... Again, this is my first attempt, so as embarrassing as it is hopefully I'll learn... --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "llama_nom" 600cell@ wrote: > > > Clue for Number 6: see Wright 151. > > http://lexicon.ff.cuni.cz/png/goth_wright/b0071.png > http://lexicon.ff.cuni.cz/png/goth_wright/b0072.png > > Clue for Number 4: compare the Modern English verb 'to lay' and cognates. > > > 1. bath > > 2. wood > > 3. dwarf > > 4. edge > > 5. elbow > > 6. owl >

Okej dear Dirk, It is evident you do not understand what I wrote. I intended to say that the Gothic tribes in the present Scandinavian countries seem to have began to form about 500 BC breaking loose from a former cultic league. This is all a hypothes NB. From the beginning, according to the hypothese, Gaut was regarded as kind of divine origin for the people. Later on the chieftains started to claim that their families had direct ancestry from Gaut as a motivation for power in opposition to the former chiefs claiming to be the reborn sungod.It all deals with motivating political and sacral power. There was originally not a common burial custom and never became. Emigration of small groups to the continent from both the mainland and Gotland are possible to indicate with a certain probability from about 350 BC but, as I wrote, just small groups. These groups may have been part of the cultures in Wiechsel/Vistula area but have not dominated the neigbouring folks.Their burial customs can be flat-ground graves with 'Urnenbrandgruben?or 'Brandgruben' like the Western but they also often have stone-deckings and other constructions above ground. The Western graves are uniformly flat-ground graves with nothing to see above earth. The Eastern graves may contain weapons but the Western never. The Western female graves are in contrast to the males equipped with grave gifts and even knives are included. The male almost never contain gifts and never weapons. I connect this habit with the cultic warrior leauges whose members were symbolically killed and then supposed to be living dead. Accordingly a dead warrior was already dead and another just took his place. The body did not matter. Females however died 'for real' and hence were honoured with gifts. It is also probable the weapons were needed for the dead warriors successor or that weapons just were nessecary for the living being expensive. It is not before about 200 AD or later that weapon graves start occuring in number up here. The grave fields I talk about ceased about 100-80 BC and start appearing in the Vistula area during the 1th c. AD. Other fields up here were not ended but continued for still a couple of hundred years till the weapon graves arrive. Your statement the Ocsywie culture had exported weapon-graves to us is

accordingly wrong. It all fits quite good with the new habit in Wielbark. If later they switched to inhumation is of no importance since the graves still had no weapons. As I also stated before the pottery in the flat-ground graves in both stergtland and West Scandinavia is remarkably like the pottery in the flat ground Weichsel graves from the 1th century if not quite identical. It is important to note also that before that, the pottery in the Weichsel area was of a much higher standard and it is now replaced by a cheaper kind. I am also aware of a later Gotlandic connection and also of Okulics seeing Scandinavians in the Elblag diggings in his zone C, and even earlier in his zone B on both sides of the Vistula/Weichsel in e.g. Odry, Wesiory, Grzybnica and close to Chelmno at Bledowo and in Trzebcz Szlachecki. I still mean the new impetus around BC creating a uniform burial custom among the Wielbark peoples originate from ideas starting in Scandinavia. I know you will disagree, of course, but I see no reason to change my mind about that. Archaeology alone can not say with certainty if or if not this is true. It depends among other things on the methods and theories applied by the archaeologists. One generation almost ever as a standard dislike the former generations methods. The cultural archaeology right now is out, but it does not mean those older archaeologists were totally wrong in everything. I try to evaluate archaeologists from all generations and to that I add history, lingvistics and history of religion et c. But please understand that I never talk about a great number of humans having performed one or several mass-emigrations. Just small groups and the one that made the most impact around BC might just have been an influential chieftain with his followers spreading the new ideas and possibly achieving a high leading position. That we may perhaps never know. Ablabius story connecting Goths with Scandinavia can in any case not be disregarded only because of some modern archaeologists not being able to confirm it. All the peoples in Southern and South-Western Scandinavia (including Jutland and Gotland)and possibly also in parts of the Southern and definitely Southeast coast of the Baltic were Goths - id est Gothic peoples. The stone circles you refer to date in Scandinavia to Pre-Roman and Roman Iron Age and are confirmed from at least the 3rd c. BC. Interestingly enough they start in Southwest Norway and go across Gautland diagonally over Sweden and land and straight over the Baltic till the Vistula area. In Denmark they start at Bornholm and continue between Oder and Elbe. In all these areas I have also the higest concentration of Ring Names showing also a connection between Goths and Burgundians. See my article in Migracijske Teme. I am well aware of Kmiecinskis measuring of scullbones in the Polish stone circles, and that is one of the reasons I claim that Goths have not a biological ethnicity but a religious, meaning they claim ancestry for the people and for their chieftains from the god Gaut. I have developed this in detail in my book, which you have, and I hope you can find somebody helping you translate it and I also hope to find a publisher that it can be printed in English. Till then I can not rewrite the whole book on the net. I will make no more effort to convince you and will not have that much time to attend to lists either, because I am working on a paper in Nordic history from the Viking Age that I will lecture on later this year. With the very best greetings Ingemar Re: Gaut, Gapt & the Gepids

Hi Dirk, You wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hello Ingemar, If I remember correctly, you have done a lot of research on Germanic mythology etc. Can you expand a little about what the nature of this god Gaut is please. How does he relate to Odin/Wodan? Does he have the same sort of attributes? Gaut seems to be some sort of ancestral god for many Germanic people. Gaut was apparently the ancestral God of the Goths, while the Saxons called their ancestral god/founding father Hatha-Gaut and Hathu-Gaut. The Thuringians worshiped a devine family called the Gausen as their ancestral gods. cheers Dirk

According to my opinion he is a predecessor of Wodan/inn but with decidedly more fertility impact. He is odinistic in the sense of schamanism but seems also related to the old fertility-cult. The Goths seem to have followed a sacral king quite a time before the open cult of inn and have had a sacrifice cycle of 19 years - meton cycle - and about 475 at least the eight year cycle breaks through in the Mlar valley area - the last Swedish bastion of the fertility cult. This shows the cult dedicated to a god by name of inn comes as import and I see Gaut as an ancient Nordic variant of the later cult, which has been influenced by the Romans concerning the sacrificial cycle and more. Dumezil sees two ruler god but he also means they could in some cultures be just one. I think he was regarded merely as a creator god from the beginning and was lifted to the rampart light by the gautic tribes in opposition to the traditional sacral kings when conditions for agriculture in the traditional settlementareas grew worse. If you write Gaut,Gaus,Gausus,Geat et c. is less important - it is the same entity. His origin lies in Scandinavia and Northern Germany in the old Bronze Age high-culture but he starts to grow more visible during the decline of this culture and begins to grow in importance as a consequense of the withering away of the old cultic fertility league. He may have had a female counterpart also because in Germany the goddess "Frau Gauden"is known and she is indeed schamanistic and "tobt" over the fields. Maybe the name originally just meant "the God" and "the Goddess" but the normally accepted translation is in any case "Gieer", he who pours out the humans who are the outpoured - in short humans. His connection with inn is in any way evident because inn is later called inn-gaut.The Saxon Hatha-Gaut and Hathu-Gaut might stand for "high" I reckon - the high Gaut or the high God - both translations might be possible. Maybe he was the former nameless inn? Because all we have is genealogies and indications toward ring-cult and stone-circles we can only suppose. > > > > > > Hello again Ingemar, can you give some details, how this prof. Okulicz-Kozaryn showed that the Gepids fromed out of people from all over Scandinavia? Is that based on archaeological finds? When is this migration supposed to have occured? In the 2nd/3rd century when the Gepids are thought to have

> formed? Most authors seem to belief that the Gepids formed out of > remainders of (Pomeranian) Gutones who did not move to the south-East > in the late 2nd century. <snip> > > > > > > > > > > In short, Makiewicz and his team of Polish archaeologist think that the Wielbark culture is mainly the extention of an earlier local culture and developed in the Pomeranian/West Prussian area with the possible influence from groups from Scandinavia. This Wielbark culture dissappeared in the late 2nd century from Pommerania, apart from the Vistula region, where the remaining carriers of this culture formed into Gepids, who later also moved southwards. cheers Dirk

In an article in Gtiska Minnen, Lidkping 1992, pp.83-106, edited by myself, Okulicz states that the grave-field at e.g. Weklice indicates the formation of a multiochtonous culture being formed from both local people and Scandinavian immigrants from all over Scandinavia. Small groups from many origins mixing and forming a tribe. The article is called " A cultural centre at the mouth of Vistula" but written in Swedish. I give you the english summary. I can also refer to some of his publications of interest: 1991: Das Grberfeld von Weklice. Zur Besiedlungsgeschichte des Weichselraums in der rmischen Kaiserzeit" from Archeologia, Vol.XL, pp.115-127. 1989: "Les aspects demographiques des migrations de la population de la civilisation de Wielbark en Mazurie, en Mazowie et en Podlasie" in Peregrinatio Gothica, Archaeologica Baltica, Vol. VIII,Lodz, pp.135-158. 1986: "Einige Aspekte der Ethnogenese der Balten und Slaven im Lichte archologischer und sprachwissenschaftlicher Forschungen"in Questiones Medii Aevi, Vol.III, pp.7-34. Okulicz, J, Bursche, A 1987: "Badania birytualnego cmentaryska kultury wielbarskiej w Krsnie, na stanowisku , 1, w woj.elblaskim" in Badania p. 207-232. Okulicz,J, Jagodzinski, M, 1987: "Dotychczasowe wyniki zdjecia archeologicznego wojewdztwa elblaskiego oraz wnioski badawcze i konserwatorskie z nich plynace" in Badania pp. 7-26. Kind greetings Ingemar Okulicz summary: (I had trouble scanning all letters proper!) Jerzy Okulicz: A cultural Center at the Mouth of Vistula Summary For a diversity of objective and subjective reasons it so happened, that no archaeological investigations had been conducted for over 4 decades on cemeteries and settlements from the period of Roman influence in the region of Elblag. This area important for the study of the history of a culture centre at the mouth of the Vistual remained of necessity away from the mainstream of research into the question of amber routes and migrations of populations from the Baltic region to the south-east of Europe. Without new archaeological finds, important artifacts discovered

in the past were forgotten, overshadowed by the spectacular research conducted to the west of the Vistula on cemeteries with stone circles (zone B described above) or the rescue excavations on flat grave fields in the vicinity of Gdansk, Pruszcz and Malbork (zone A,). Only in the 1966 when H.J. Eggers published his photographs taken in 1939 of materials from the cemetery at Polowite, extremely rich in Roman imports; subsequently lost during the war, questions concerning this area once again drew the attention of scholars. The next step was initiating a modern registration of sites in the Elblag voivodship (J. Okulicz, M. Jagodzinski 1987, pp. 7 - 26) and ultimately, excavating the cemeteries at Krosno (J. Okulicz, A. Bursche 1987, pp. 207 - 232) and Weklice. Thc preliminary discussion of research results from the Weklice cemetery presented here, with an attempt to present them in a broader historical context shows that we are not dealing here with a marginal and minor area of the Wielbark Culture but with one of the centres of the amber coast, crucial for understanding the far-reaching ties between the Baltic region and various areas of the Roman Empire and European Barbaricum. Moreover, without the knowledge of cemeteries in the Elblag Heights it would be difficult to understand the issues related to the migration of populations from the Baltic area to the South. While in the period between the middle of the 1st c. and the late 2nd c. AD the Elblag group was distinguished by a relatively rich equipment of female graves, it did not differ much from situation on cemeteries in zones A and B described earlier. Only at the close of the 2nd c., the time when cemeteries in zone B and, partially inzone A3, were abandoned, and the population departed to the South, the group in question gained in importance. In comparison to the burial grounds continuing to be used in zone A, near Pruszcz and Malbork, grave goods from the late 2nd and the 3rd c. (cemetery phases III-V) at Weklice, PoFowite and other nearby sites are unmatched intheir richness featuring an accumulation of impressive Roman imports and a largest number of locally produced silver and gold items. New cemeteries of the Wielbark Culture which began to be set up starting from the end of the 2nd and throughout the 3rd c. in Mazowsze, Podlasie, Bug river basin and Volhynia appear very modest in comparison. All of the foregoing goes to show that the centre functioning the in the Elblag Heights at this time had been the cultural hub of the entire Wielbark Culture. It transmitted cultural stimuli to far off Ukraine, Moldavia and Rumania, injecting the then nascent Cerniachov-Sintana-de Mures culture with features particular to the Baltic region. The culture centre flourishing in Denmark at the close of the 2nd and throughout the 3rd c. and its counterpart in the Elblag Heights were linked in various ways, as we set out to prove here (Fig. 6 and 10). Such a situation is readily understood if we bear in mind the importance of amber workshops on the lower Vistula turning out vast quantities of ornaments for the "markets" in the Barbaricum. The economic profits were high indeed, It is difficult not to associate such a strong economical position of the group in question with the organization of the southward migrations of population. It is surprising that no existing publications concerning the migration of Goths and Gepidae engaged in such a basic comprehensive confrontation of sources. In the late 3rd c. the population of the Elblag Group migrated to the South, at least, less sweepingly, it abandoned its former seats. This is evidenced by the discontinued use of all cemeteries investigated to date, and presumably, settlements, as well. We know too little to formulate solid hypotheses as to what spurred this migration. This is also true of other obscure root causes of the great exodus of northern Barbarian peoples to the South. The role of the mouth of the Vistula region as a major culture centre on the Baltic continued later, in the 4th and 5th c. At this time zone A1,

on the left bank of the Vistula, still with a stable settlement, gained in importance. It took over the role of the main outlet for the Baltic peoples. This is borne out by rich grave goods in the burials from phases C2-D on cemeteries at Pruszcz and those near Malbork, which bear the mark of strong ties with Scandinavia and the Cerniachov-Sintana-de-Mures Culture. > > A few views from the North. > > The Scandinavian word is "alver" (pl.), actually > two families, the light alver from Alvheim and the > third heaven, Vidblaain, and the black alver > in Svaralvheim in the underworld. > > Disar sacrifice was officiated over by a female > priest, blotgydja. > > >I would think that a cognate word would convey the exact meaning..the > >alfar and disir are Norse equivalents to a great extent. > > In my opinion they are godlike creatures, not ancestral spirits. > They are of human size and look like humans. > > >Alfar and disir are ancestral spirits. > > Tivar? Could you please explain that? > > the cognate of tivar in Old Norse, > Hails! Its also interesting that the goths seemed to worship the sun. Probably a rest of the teutonic believe since the bronzeage. On many rock-carvings from that time you can see a wheel, probably a symbol for the sun-gods chariot which pulls with the help of a horse, Skinfaxi, the sun over the sky. A rest of that faith was the farmcrosses that were common in the Baltics and Gotland until the medieval ages. They were cut down as pagan symbols everywhere eccept Gotland. A few remains still on Gotland and the smilarity to the gaelic cross is striking, maybe a rest of the cult of "Lughnasa" or "Lugh". To compare mythoogy is alaways intresting. See this link: http://www.gotlandica.com/eveced/lokrume.html Gutwulfs * Yahoo! * My Yahoo! * Mail * More Yahoo! Services o News o Sports o Finance o Entertainment Make Y! My HomepageGet Yahoo! Toolbar Account Options Hi, Ernesto * Profile * Contacts * Applications

* Account Info * You are signed in as: theudimer Sign OutHelp Yahoo! 1. Drag the "Y!" and drop it onto the "Home" icon. 2. Select "Yes" from the pop up window. 3. Nothing, you're done. If this didn't work for you see detailed instructions Close this window Principio del formulario Yahoo! Searchweb search Final del formulario theudimer Starta gothic-l Group Of theudimer@yahoo.es | MyGroups the Historical East-Germanic | Group Member Tribe - of Edit Membership Principio del formulario Final del formulario * Home * Messages * Post * Files * Photos * Links * Database * Polls * Members * Calendar * Promote * Groups Labs (Beta) * Applications Yahoo! Groups Tips Did you know... Real people. Real stories. See how Yahoo! Groups impacts members worldwide. Best of Y! Groups Messages Check them Help out and nominate your group. Principio del formulario Message # Final del formulario Principio del formulario Search: Final del formulario Start Topic Advanced Re: Reply Message Message [gothic-l] | #7823 Forward Listof Re: 10300 hils-2 <Prev - Hornung <Prev | Next> Next> Hails Llama Nom Hils Llama Nom

Yes, you are right with your translation!!!

"aus der Reihe tanzen": to be different; to step out of the line

Connected with the Duden interpretation of "going short" (being the odd one;

bastard,.....): gehrnt:

"ein gehrnter Eheman": a cuckold "jemandem Hrner aufsetzen": to cuckold somebody, to give somebody horns "Hrner tragen": to be cuckold

----- Original Message ----From: "llama_nom" <penterakt@...> To: <gothic-l@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Thursday, July 22, 2004 4:34 PM Subject: [gothic-l] Re: hils-2 - Hornung

Hails Manie, Thanks for those etymologies: very interesting. Are there any other words connected with the Duden interpretation of "going short"? Here is what I think the other extract means - let me know if I've made any mistakes: "horn" in the sense of "corner", here: conceived in the corner as opposed to the marriage bed, the bastard, refering to the fact that Hornung/February as the shortest month "dances out of line" (is the odd one out?). According to another interpretation, "horn" refers to the horns or antlers of deer (does & stags), which they shed in spring. Llama Nom --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "Manie Lombard" <manielombard@c...> wrote: > Hils again, dear Llama Nom (Dirk?) > > > http://ahnensitte.net/zeit4.htm > > "horn" im Sinne von "Winkel", hier: der im Winkel statt im Ehebett Gezeugte, > der Bastard, was darauf verweist, da der Hornung als krzester Monat "aus > der Reihe tanzt". Nach anderer Deutung verweist Horn auf das Gehrn bzw. > Geweih der Rehe und Hirsche, das diese im Frhjahr abwerfen.

> > According to this otherwise quite dubious site the above explanation is from > the Kluge dictionary. Please inform me, if you want to have the above > sentences translated (although my english is not very good :))) ) > > regards > Manie > > ----- Original Message ----> From: "llama_nom" <penterakt@f...> > To: <gothic-l@yahoogroups.com> > Sent: Tuesday, July 20, 2004 4:37 PM > Subject: [gothic-l] Re: hils > > > > > Hails Manie, > > For the sake of completeness, as a Gothic name for Monday I've toyed > with the variants: *Daiwtairadags, *Diutadags (after Greek, the > second more assimilated to Gothic sounds), or *Meninsdags (after > other Germanic languages), or some innocent calque like: Anthardags. > No evidence for any of them, I'm afraid, as far as I know. And I'm > not familiar with the history of the Greek names, so I don't know > whether hee deut&#233;ra, the modern name, was in use at this time. > And for Wednesday, maybe: Midjawiko. In support of this is the > German substitution of Mittwoch for Wotanstag, and the Slavonic use > of words meaning "centre" for this middle day. But this is just a > guess. > > Now the months: Here goes... > > If you look towards the end of this message, you'll find I've made up > some Gothic month names based on the Old English ones. But bear in > mind these are rather arbitrary! Looking at the various Germanic > calendars here, there's obviously quite a bit of variety, from the > lunar/solar English system, to the solar Julian-style Norse and > German (& Gothic) calendars, each with their own sets of names. Even > where they do have names in common, these often apply to different > months, as is the case with Gothic Fruma Jiuleis (November) : OE &#198;rra = > > Geola (December) - or English Hrethmonath, which is approximately > March, but the German Redimonet, quoted by Grimm, was applied > variously to March or February. > > That said, some names are quite widespread. On the basis of Old > English and Old High German cognates, I think it's not so far fetched > to imagine there could once have been a Gothic *Austramenoths > (although against this is the fact that no trace of the goddess > Eastre/&#212;stara, or her feast, survive in North Germanic; cf. ON > p&#225;skir "easter", though there is in Norse mythology a male Austri; > and a related goddess name elsewhere in Indo-European: Skr. Ushas,

> Lat. Aurora, Lith. Auszrinne). It is also quite possible, if > unprovable, that there was a Gothic *Hailagamenoths, as well as Fruma > Jiuleis and * Anthar/Aftuma Jiuleis. > > The individual elements of OE Winterfylleth appear in Gothic > separately as wintrus & fullithe (gen.pl.), so perhaps there was a > month *Wintrufulliths. The elements of OHG Aranmanoth, Hewinmanoth, > Windumanoth & Winnemanoth all have attested Gothic equivalents, so we > could reconstruct: *Asanamenoth, *Haujamenoths, *Windamenoths & > *Winjamenoths. OHG Witumanoth might have had a Gothic equivalent > *Widumenoths (cf. *widus in Koebler, recorded in personal names). > It's hard to say which exact month these would have corresponded to, > though the rough time of year is implied by the meanings. > > As for choosing between alternative possibilities, Bede's AngloSaxon > names have the advantage of being older, albeit slightly more remote > in space than the German ones, although they differ from the Gothic > calendar in being variable and lunar rather than fixed according to > the Julian calander. Finally, I've also compiled an arbitrary list > of "guesses" at the Gothic months, mixing and matching the different > traditions. > > > 1. LATIN MONTHS > 2. THE ANGLO-SAXON CALENDER > 3. THE OLD NORSE CALENDAR > 4. DUTCH TRADITIONAL MONTH NAMES > 5. GERMAN TRADITIONAL MONTH NAMES > 6. RECONSTRUCTING THE GOTHIC CALENDER > > RE the Latin names: I think the second "o" of October is long in > Latin, in which case it might have been transcribed into Gothic as > Auktobair. > > As a suffix in personal names, and a productive suffix that could be > attached to native Gothic words, the Latin -arius > areis in Gothic. > Whether this would apply to the month names I don't know: it would > probably depend on when they where adopted by the Goths. > > The Latin combination -tio- appears affricated in the Gothic > borrowing kawtsjo (6th century deed), reflecting innovations in Latin > pronunciation, but if Martius had been borrowed earlier it would have > escaped this change. In favour of a non-affricated form in Gothic > might be the German dialect variants Marte, etc. - see below. > > > 1. THE ANGLO-SAXON CALENDER > > Here is the Old English calendar (I've given it in West Saxon > spelling, although you might find some books & sites which quote > earlier Northumbrian forms used by the Venerable Bede, or some > confusing mixture of West Saxon & Northumbrian...) with approximate > modern equivalents: > > &#198;rra Geola (later Geolmonath) - December

> &#198;fterra Geola - January > Solmonath - February > Hrethmonath - March > Eastremonath - April > Thrimilce, Thrimilcemonath - May > &#198;rra Litha - June > &#198;fterra Litha - July > Weodmonath - August > Haligmonath (later: H&#230;rfestmonath) - September > Winterfylleth - October > Blotmonath - November > > > NOTES ON ANGLO-SAXON CALENDAR > > Two seasons or "missere", neuter, (ON misseri): winter starts with > Winterfylleth, named after the "winter full moon". Summer begins > with Eastremonath. The year began on what Bede calls Modranect (West > Saxon *Modraneaht "mother's night" = Christmas Eve (the night of the > 24th of December). In addition, some years would have a third Litha, > although Bede doesn't give the rule for calculating when these would > be. They were called "a year of three lithas". > > Similarities to the mismatch between Gothic & Anglo-Saxon names for > November/December, exist among the Slavonic month names, where > etymologically cognate names are sometimes applied to neighbouring > months in different modern Slavonic languages, e.g. Listopad = > November in Czech, Polish, Ukrainian & Belorussionan, but October in > Croat. The months were originally not rigidly fixed by convention in > relation to the solar cycle, but calculated as they came by > observation of the moon. It was only the practice of intercalating > the extra month that kept them from wandering out of synch with the > solstices. The trick was to stop the "after" solstice months > (&#198;fterrra Geola & &#198;fterra Litha) from creeping forward to before = > > midwinter & midsummer respectively. But note that even the heathen > English made use of one date, 24 Dec, fixed according to the Julian > calendar. > > Observing Bede's Anglo-Saxon Calendar, by John Robert Stone: > http://www.kami.demon.co.uk/gesithas/calendar/obs_bede.html > > The Anglo-Saxon Year by Arlea Hunt-Ansch&#252;tz > http://ipc.paganearth.com/diaryarticles/history/calendar.html > > According to Stone, the new month began with the first sighting of > the crescent moon at sunset as was the practice of other lunar > calendars, such as the Babylonian; this ties in with the idea of > beginning days at sunset, hence Tue's Day becomes Woden's Eve when > the sun goes down. > > Grimm, on the other hand, quotes Tacitus's mention of "a nox illunis > (night without a moon) chosen for a festival", and considers that > this dark night (Latin: interlunium; ON nidamyrkr; MnSw > nedm&#246;rk 'pitch black') would have been counted as the first of > the "New Moon", just as the full moon was regarded as the first

night > of the waning half of the month (He cites OHG bruch 'breaking [off]' > as an alternate name for the full moon). That the interlunium was > not considered separate from the cycle of waxing and waning is > confirmed by the Old Gutnish formula ny ok nidar "at all times". > Grimm adds that the reckoning of time went by nights because of the > importance of lunar observation for the calendar, and Jordanes refers > to observations of the moon (Chapter 11), as well as testifying to > the sophistication of Gothic astronomy - see below. > > > 2. THE OLD NORSE CALENDAR > > Thorri - name of a frost giant or popular deity (mid January to mid > February) > G&#243;i (originally indeclinable feminine, but later became G&#243;a) > another giant: the daugher of Thorri > Einm&#225;nudr - One/single month > Gaukm&#225;nudr, S&#225;dt&#237;d, Harpa - Cuckoo month, Seed tide, ? > Eggt&#237;d, Skerpla - Egg tide, ? > S&#243;lm&#225;nudr, selm&#225;nudr, Stekkt&#237;d - Sun month, Shieling mo= > nth, Lamb-fold > time > *Aukn&#230;tr (four days) - Addition nights > Midsumar, Heyannir, Ormam&#225;nudr - Midsummer, Hey time, Snake month > Tv&#237;m&#225;nudr, Heyaanir - Double month, Hey reaping > Haustm&#225;nudr, Kornskurdarm&#225;nudr - Harvest month, Corncutting mont= > h > Gormm&#225;nudr - Slaughter month > Frerm&#225;nudr, Ylir - Frost month, Yule (mid November to mid December) > Hr&#250;tm&#225;nudr, J&#243;lm&#225;nudr, M&#246;rsugr - Ram month, Yule, = > Fat sucker > > *Sumarauki "summer addition" was added to Aukn&#230;tr every five or six > years (it was one week long). It has been speculated that the name > Tv&#237;m&#225;nudr might point to an earlier system of intercalation in wh= > ich > this month was periodically doubled. It is also possible that Yule > was originally a shorter period (cf. Norwegian Skammtid "short time"). > > The months could also be referred to as "first, second, etc. (fyrsti, > annarr) month", starting with Gaukm&#225;nudr, the first month of summer. > > The West Norse Calendar, by Arild Hauge > http://www.heithingi.com/index.php?file=./calendar.html > > Runic Calendars: Time Reckoning in the Viking Age

> http://www.vikinganswerlady.com/primstav.htm > > The name Thorri (Icelandic) > http://www.skjal.is/index.php?item=110&show=1&mode=2&Cat=1&Sub=2 > > > From Cleasby & Vigfussen's Icelandic Dictionary (Watch out for the > slightly garbled text...): > > &#225;r 'year': "...divided into twelve lunar months, each of 30 days, > with four intercalary days, thus making 364 days; as the year was > reckoned about the middle of the 10th century (the original > calculation probably only reckoned 360 days, and made up the > difference by irregular intercalary months). About the year 960 > Thorstein Surt introduced the sumarauki (intercalary week), to be > inserted every seventh year, thus bringing the year up to 365 days. > After the introduction of Christianity (A. D. 1000) the sumarauki was > made to harmonize with the Julian calendar; but from A.D. 1700 with > the Gregorian calendar..." > > (This last entry also comments that the Gothic JER translates not > only Greek etos, Latin annus 'year', but also kairos & > chronos 'time'.) > > Thorri, a, m. [perh. from &#254;verra &#254;orrinn = the month of the wanin= > g > or 'ebbing' winter]:-the name of the fourth winter month, the first > after mid-winter; of thirty days, beginning on a Friday and eliding > on a Saturday inclusively ; in the old calendar thorri is entered as > beginning between the yth and 10th of Jan., and the next month, G&#250;e > (q. v.), between the 8th and I5th of Feb., see H.E. i. 595 ; but in > the new style, in Icel. Almanack, the first day of Thorri, 1873, is > Friday, Jan. 24, and the last, Saturday, Feb. 22 ; mi&#240;&#254;orri, the= > . > middle of the month Th., Edda 103, Gr&#225;g. ii. 306, Rb. 46, Landn. 324: = > > the name of this month is still the common term in Icel., the names > of Jan. and Feb. being almost unknown in Icelandic country life; > borra-d&#230;griu &#254;ykja long | &#254;egarhann bl&#230;s &#225; nor&#24= > 0;an, a ditty, cee G&#243;i. > For the mythical origin of this month, see Orkn. (begin.) and Fb. i. > 21, 22. COMPDS: jporra-blot, n. the great sacrifice when Thorri > begins (in heathen times), Fas. i. 17. j&#254;orra-kyrrur, f. pi. calm, > frosty weather, said to prevail in this month. jporram&#225;nu&#240;r, m. = > (he > month Thorri, Fb. i. 22, Rb. 516. fjorra- &#254;r&#230;ll, m. the thrall of= > > Th., i. e. the List day of Thorri, sec Almanack, /873, Feb. 22. > > (In Fundinn N&#243;regr & Hersu N&#243;regr byggdisk, Thorri is the

son of = > > Snaer "snow", in a genealogy of elemental ancestors to the Norwegian > dynasty). > > G&#211;I, f. indecl., always so in old writers, (gee, i. e. g&#243;e, B&#20= > 5;. i. 9, > v. 1.), > mod. g&#243;a, u, f.; the month G&#243;i has thirty days, from the middle o= > f > February to the middle of March ; for the mythical origin of this > word vide Fb. i. 22, Edda 103, Landn. 154, 225, Rb. 48, 50, Ann. > 1276,1340, Bs. i. 9, 0. H. 64:-in Icel. the names of the winter > months "&#254;orri and G&#243;a are still very common. COMPDS : G&#243;i-be= > ytlar, m. > pi., botan. equisetum vernum hyemale, Landn. 222. G&#243;ibl&#243;t, n. a = > > sacrifice in > the month G&#243;a, Fb. 1. c. G&#243;i-m&#225;na&#240;r, m. the month G&#24= > 3;i, Landn. 256, > Rb. 516. G&#243;i-&#254;r&#230;ll, m. the last day of the month G&#243;a, s= > ee the Icel. > almanack. > (Grimm, Vol 4 p. 1364, says Rask linked G&#243;i to Finnish koi "aurora" - = > > i.e. dawn.) > > skorpla, u, f. the second month in the summer, Edda 103; see Icel. > Almanack, May 25, 1872. > > VIKA, u, f., gen. pi. vikna, pi. vikur: > ...The ancient Scandinavians and Teutons in heathen times seem to > have counted the year by pentads, called fimt, as has already been > remarked s. v. fimt (p. 153), to which may be added the authority of > the late Prof. Schlegel of Copenhagen in a notice of 1825, mentioned > in Lex. Mythol.p. 753. The time when the Scandinavians changed their > system is quite unknown; it would seem that in Icel. 'weeks' were > already in use in the middle of the 10th century, could we but trust > the record in lb. ch. 4 as authentic in its details. II. spec, usages > in the calendar; Helga vika, the Holy-week (i.e. after Whitsun), > Thorn. 22, Dipl. iii. IO, D. I. i. 594; Efita-vika, the last week of > Lent, i.e. Passion-week, Orkn. 386, D.I. i. 594; P&#225;ska-vika, Easter> week; S&#230;lu-vika, Ember-week, passim, see Icel. Almanack ; as also > Auka-vika or Lagningar-vika, the additional week, intercalary week, = > sumar-auki, see p. 604; fyrsta Sumar-vika, si&#244;asta vika sumars, > si>asta vika vetrar. > > (Vaster Gudmundsson also believed in year of 72 five-day weeks = 360 > days + a leap month every five or six years.)

> > M&#193;NUDR, and m&#225;nadr, m.: > ...The old heathen )'ear consisted of twelve months, each of thirty > days, so that a pentad (fnnmt) added to that number made the year > complete. For the names of the economical > months sec Edda 103 (gor-m., frer-m., hnit-ni., ein-m., sol-in., and > sel-m., kornskur>ar-m.) ; tv&#237;-iu&#225;na>r (q. v.), the ' double month= > ;' > &#250;t-m&#225;nu>ir, the last months of the winter (foorri, G&#243;i, Ein-= > mi'mu>r), > &#64257;a> er koniift frani &#225; &#250;t-m&#250;mi>i; see also the Icel. = > Almanack, where > the old months are still marked. Of the Julian Calendar we have > Martius m&#225;na>ar, 623. 37, Rb. passim ; but that computation never > came into household use in Iceland, where the old calendar (of &#64257;orri= > , > G&#243;i, Ein-in., etc.) still prevails for all domestic ai&#238;airs : > astron., tungl-m., a lunar month; so!-m., a solar month. la popular > usage, as elsewhere, a month often means /o;/r weeks, and luilfr > m&#225;nu>r, half a month = a for/night; halftun in&#225;na>i eptir mitt su= > mar, > Nj. 4; ;'i h&#225;lfs m&#225;na>ar fresti, within half a month, a fortnight= > ,... > > It seems the Norse calendar differed from the English in being fixed > to the sun rather than the moon. Though out of step with the Roman > months, the Julian calendar was used in pre-Christian Scandinavia. > Months varied not in order to accommodate the phases of the moon, but > so as to begin on a certain day of the week. Later they were fixed > to begin on set dates. At one time in Norway, an alternative > tradition made use of double months of 59 days each, thus eliminating > the irregularity caused by rounding off the lunar cycle of 29.5 solar > days to 30. > > > 3. DUTCH TRADITIONAL MONTH NAMES > > January - Lauwmaand ("chill month") > February - Sporkel ("sprout"), Spokkelmaand, Schrikkelmaand ("the > dread month"), Sille > March - Lentmaant ("lengthening") > May - Grasmaand ("grass month") > June - Bloumaand, Bloeimaand ("blooming month") > July - Zomermaand ("summer month") > August - Oogstmaand ("harvest month") > September - Herstmaand, Hefstmaand, Evenmaand ("harvest > month, "eventide month") > October - Wynmaand (i.e. Wijnmaand) > November - Slagtmaand ("slaughter month")

> December - Wintermaand > > > 4. GERMAN TRADITIONAL MONTH NAMES > > a. Old High German (9-15th century) > > Wintarmanoth - Winter month (January) > Hornung - ?Snowing (Feb) > Lenzinmanoth - Lent/lengthening month (Mar) > Winnemanoth - Grazing month (Apr) > Ostarmanoth - Easter month (May) > Brachmanoth - Blooming month (Jun) > Hewinmanoth - Hay month (Jul) > Aranmanoth - Reaping month (Aug) > Witumanoth - Wood month (Sep) > Windumanoth - Wind month (Oct) > Herbistmanoth - Harvest month (Nov) > Heligmanoth - Holy month (Dec) > > These names, or at least their official codification, are attributed > to the Emperor Charlemagne by his biographer Einhard/Eginhart, who > says that previously some Franks had used the Roman names, while > others native names. Given Charlemagne's respect for tradition (e.g. > his collection of ancient songs), it seems unlikely that he invented > them from scratch. (Vita Caroli Magni, Chapter 29). > > I'm not sure the meaning of Hornung is really known. I > found "Snowing" on one website, but I don't know the basis for that. > I wonder though if it could be related to words like ON hyrning > (f) "corner", hyrningr (m) "angle", OE hyrne "corner, angle", MnE > dialect: hurn, (h)on "river bend", etc. - maybe this month was seen > as the turning point, when the first signs were felt that winter was > ending - or maybe the name was displaced from some true (solsticial) > turning point. > > > b. (Early) Modern German (c. 15-19th century) + dialect, including > some nonstandard variants of the Latin names: > > January - Hartung, Hartmond, Schneemond, Eismond, Wolfmond, Jenner, > J&#228;nner (still used in Austria) > February - Hornung, Sporkel, Narrenmond, Schmelzmond, Feber > March - Lenzing, Lenzmonat, Fr&#252;hlingsmond, Mertz, Merte, Marte, > Retmonat, Redtimonat (cf. OE hreth-) > April - Ostermonat, Launing, Keimmonat, Knospenmonat, Aberelle, > Abrille > May - Wonnemonat (="joy month"), Wonnemond, Winnemond ("grazing > moon"), Weidemond, Marienmond, May, Maie, Maien > June - Brachmonat, Brachmond, Brachet, Rosenmond > July - Heumonat, Heumond, Heuert, Heuet, B&#228;renmonat > August - Erntemonat, Erntemond, &#196;hrenmonat, Sichelmond, Ernting, > Ouwest > September - Herbstmonat, Herbstmond, Herbsting, Engelmonat, > Holzmonat, Scheiding > October - Weinmonat, Gilbhart ("yellow"), Nebelung ("foggy"), > Dachsmond, Octember > November - Wintermonat, Wintermond, Hartmond, Herbstmond, Nebelmond,

> Windmond > December - Christmonat, Heilmond, Heiligmond, Julmonat, Wintermond, > Hartmond, Schlachtmond > > > For more on German months, search for these names, and see: > > DER GERMANISCHE MONDKALENDER II - DIE MONATE by Bjorgulf (German) > http://www.eldaring.de/content/modules.php? > name=News&file=article&sid=29 > > ...for a list with references. > > > 5. RECONSTRUCTING THE GOTHIC CALENDAR > > The following comments on Gothic astronomy appear in Jordanes (trans. > Thredrich Geat): > > Thus by teaching them ethics he restrained their barbarous customs; > by instructing them in the science of nature, he made them live > naturally under laws of their own, which they possess in written form > to this day and call bi-lageineis {"laws"}. He taught them logic and > made them skilled in reasoning beyond all other races; he showed > them practical knowledge and so persuaded them to abound in good > works. By explaining theoretical knowledge he urged them to > contemplate the progress of the twelve constellations {of the zodiac} > and the courses of the planets passing through them, and the whole of > astronomy. He told them how the disc of the moon waxes or wanes, and > showed them how much the fiery globe of the sun exceeds in size our > earthly planet. He explained with which names or designations in the > arching heavens the three hundred forty-six stars hurtle from their > rising to their setting. > > Nam ethicam eos erudiens, barbaricos mores compescuit; physicam > tradens, naturaliter propriis legibus vivere fecit, quas usque nunc > conscriptas "belagines" nuncupant; logica instruens, rationis eos > supra ceteras gentes fecit expertes; practicen ostendens, in bonis > actibus conversari suasit; theoreticen demonstrans, signorum > duodecim et per ea planetarum cursus omnemque astronomiam contemplari > edocuit, et quomodo lunaris orbis augmentum sustinet aut patitur > detrimentum, edixit, solisque globus igneus quantum terrenum orbem in > mensura excedat, ostendit, aut quibus nominibus vel quibus signis in > polo caeli vergente et revergente trecentae quadraginta et sex > stellae ab ortu in occasum praecipites ruant, exposuit. > > The Goths are also described here as studying the waxing and waning > of the moon. Could the number 346 have some relation to the number > of days in the Gothic year, minus feast days & intercalated extras? > (E.g. 346 + twelve nights of Yule + two nights of Easter (see below) > = 360. And the variable remainder perhaps added at midsummer.)

> > > Some elements of the Old English month names are attested in Gothic, > or hypothecized: > > menoths, m. - month (consonant stem) > miluks, f. - milk (consonant stem) > hrotheigs - glorious, triumphant > *hroth - triumph, glory (in personal names) > wintrus - winter (as in other early Germanic languages, a number of > years was usually counted in "winters") > fullithe - of full moons (this actually translates Saint Paul's > words "of new moons", Col 2,26, but presumed a mistake for *niujithe; > could this imply that the Goths had a full moon festival of more > significance than the new? Not according to Grimm, who considered it > a "mere oversight") > blotan - to worship (Class VII) > blotinassus - worship > gudblostreis - worshipper of God > *blostr, n. - worship, sacrifice (a-stem) > usbloteins - worship > bisauljan, bisaulnan - sully, be sullied (Related by vowel gradation > to OE sol 'mud'?) > *austr- - east (as in Ostrogoti) > > The gender and declension of fullith(s) is unknown. It could be a > masculine or neuter a-stem, or a masculine or feminine consonant stem > (like menoths). > > I wonder what the declension of thrimilci (this is the early > Northumbrian form in Bede) would have been. According to Bede this > referred to a time of bounty in the continental homeland of the > English, so perhaps this one was unknown to the Goths. > Sol 'mud', with a short vowel, is neuter in OE. Bede mentions an > offering of cakes. Did the cakes have the nature or colour of mud? > Were they buried in the mud? Or was it just a muddy month: February > Fill-dyke, as it is now nicknamed. > > OE hreth, as an abstract noun is masculine, but once a neuter es/os> stem, as shown by the mutation, and by the related neuter hrothor. > The hypothetical Gothic *hroth, neuter, is from Koebler - maybe > *hrothis existed too? The month name is reckoned to refer to a > valkyrie-like goddess of visciousness & victory, but what declension > might the name be: a jo-stem (Gothic *Hrothi, like *gunthi, *hildi) > perhaps? Or an on-stem from the adjective OE hrethe, maybe Gothic > *Hrothjo 'the fierce'. Grimm cites German forms: Retmonat > (Strassburg, 1644, = March), Redtmonet (origin?, 1404, = month?), > Redimonet (Appenzelle, Switzerland, date?, =February) - though none > with the standard mutation o > &#246;; also an OHG female name Hruod&#226;.= > > ON Bl&#243;t 'sacrifice' is a neuter a-stem. > > OE geola; the earlier form Giuli, given by Bede, agrees more with the > Gothic JIULEIS. ON y'lir (that's meant to be a long "y") was at one > time "the month beginning on the second day of the week falling

> within Nov 10-17). The feast of Yule itself is a neuter plural in ON > j&#243;l, and sometimes in OE geol, suggesting a Gothic plural *Jiula. I > think this is because the "yules" were the Twelve Nights over which > celebrations continued. Similarly, according to Grimm, Easter was > originally plural because the feast lasted two days, the (OHG) > &#212;startag&#226;. > > OE L&#238;tha. The gentle month? Bede's explanation points both to the > mildness of the weather, but also to the verb lithan 'go, travel': > what people did on account of the mild weather - at least one of > these explanations must be a folk etymology... No adjective > *lintheis appears in Gothic, but it might lie behind Romance > borrowings from Germanic, quite possibly Gothic, such as Spanish, > Portuguese lindo (see Koebler *lind-). Another idea is that OE Litha > might have been a term for the moon, but I don't know the full > reasoning behind this argument, or the etymology. Then there's > Gothic leithu 'strong drink, fruit wine', OE l&#238;th, which one hopes > was part of the celebrations at least, if not the name... Or is the > month name an ancient term for summer cognate with Slavonic (Czech) > l&#233;to? OE also has a compound: l&#238;thadl "gout". Lith "limb" is no= > t > related, having a short vowel. The Oxford English Dictionary, > however, sides with the first explanation, "gentle", citing examples > of _lithe_ used of calm weather or a lull, also a "warm shelter". > > OE Eastremonath, derived by Bede from the goddess Eostre > (Northumbrian spelling = West Saxon Eastre). Was there a Gothic > goddess *Austro, a feast day *Austrons (grammatically plural, like > *Jiula), and maybe a month *Austramenoths? Or did the Goths, as > Christians, adopt Paska (originally Passover), from the Greek? (cf. > ON p&#225;skir "easter"). Grimm mentions Basque Ostara "May", but he says = > > this is "a mere accidental resemblance", apparently, and derives from > Basque ostoa "leaf, foliage". > > > Soooo... Here's my attempt at a reconstructing the Gothic months on > the basis of Old English. > > ____OE______MnE________Gothic_______ > &#198;rra Geola - December - *AFTUMA JIULEIS > &#198;fterra Geola - January - *SULAMENOTHS > Solmonath - February - *HROTHIMENOTHS > Hrethmonath - March - *AUSTRAMENOTHS > Eostremonath - April - *THRIMILUKI? > Thrimilci - May - *FRUMA LINTHJA? leitha? > &#198;rra Litha - June - *ANTHAR LINTHJA? leitha? > &#198;fterra Litha - July - *WIUDAMENOTHS > Weodmonath - August - *HAILAGAMENOTHS, or * (SA) HAILAGA MENOTHS, > *ASANAMENOTHS > Haligmonath (later: H&#230;rfestmonath) - September *WINTRUFULLITHS

> Winterfylleth - October - *BLOTAMENOTHS > Blotmonath - November - FRUMA JIULEIS > > Of course, chances are the real Gothic calendar diverged from the > Anglo-Saxon much more than this, both in names and their application, > just as the Norse and German did. Maybe it shared features with the > calendars of other Germanic peoples. Or maybe the old names were > soon abandoned in favour of the Roman ones. Or maybe just a few > relics survived like Fruma Jiuleis alongside the Latin names. > Probably there were multiple variants across the wide area settled by > the Goths, just as there were within the other Germanic traditions. > Probably we'll never know. > > Here's an alternative highly speculative calendar, being mainly a mix > of English and (Old High) German names, mostly using (hypothetical) > cognates although Friusa- is a calque on Lauwmaand, Eismond, etc.): > > January - *FRIUSAMENOTHS, *EISAMENOTHS, *HARDUMENOTHS, *HARDIGGS > February - *HAURNIGGS, *SULAMENOTHS > March - *LAGGATEINS, *HROTHIMENOTHS > April - *AUSTRAMENOTHS (or *Paskamenoths) > May - *WINJAMENOTHS > June - FRUMA *LINTHJA, *GRASAMENOTHS > July - AFTUMA *LINTHJA, *HAUJAMENOTHS > August - *ASANAMENOTHS > September - *HAILAGAMENOTHS, *WIDUMENOTHS, *AKRANAMENOTHS > October - *WINTRUFULLITHS > November - FRUMA JIULEIS > December - * AFTUMA JIULEIS > > I wonder if there is any other evidence lurking out there... I guess > it might be possible to narrow down when the hay harvest and the corn > harvest would have been in various Gothic territories. > > Llama Nom > > __________________________________________ > Bede, the Venerable, "De temporum ratione" (On the Reckoning of the > Seasons), Chapter 15 > Grimm, J, (trans. Stallybras, J), "Teutonic Mythology", (trans.) 1883 > (for the moon & time, see Vol 2, 708-715; for Eastre & Hreth, see Vol > 1, 288-291) > Herbert, K, "Looking For the Lost Gods of England", Anglo-Saxon > Books, 1994 > Stone JR, "Observing Bede's Anglo-Saxon Calendar", Tha Engliscan > Gesithas Members Handbook, 1998 > > > > --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "Manie Lombard" <manielombard@c...> > wrote: > > Hils Llama Nom > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > Thank you very much for your reply!!! Has anybody already tried to reconstruct the Gothic names according to the Old English names? > > > > My attempt (according to the Latin forms): > > > > January: *januarius (or *ianuarius?) > > February: *fabruarius > > March: *martius > > April: *aprilis > > May: *maius > > June: *junius (*iunius?) > > July: *julius (*iulius?) > > August: *awgustus > > September: *saptambar > > October: *aktabar > > November: nabambar > > December: *dakambar > > > > > > The days of the week according to your information and the list of Gerhard Kbler: > > > > Monday: ? > > Tuesday: *areinsdags, *arjausdags > > Wednesday: ? > > Thursday: *pintadags, *pantedags, paraskawe > > Friday: *pareinsdags > > Saturday: sabbato > > Sunday: *frujinsdags > > >

> > > > > > So for Monday and Wednesday we don't have any knowledge so far? > > > > > > > > > > > > Regards > > > > Manie > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----> > From: llama_nom > > To: gothic-l@yahoogroups.com > > Sent: Thursday, July 08, 2004 6:47 AM > > Subject: [gothic-l] Re: hils > > > > > > > > Hails Manie! > > > > I believe the Fagino Maria (Hail Mary) you quote is a modern > > reconstruction, based on Luk:1:28 "jah galeithands inn sa aggilus > du > > izai qath: fagino, anstai audahafta, frauja mith thus; thiuthido > thu > > in qinom." And I would guess that the lack of dots above the > capital > > I of Iesus is just a product of the computer font used to > transcribe > > the Gothic letters. That is to say, perhaps the upper case > > equivalent of wasn't available in this particular font, or else > was > > felt unnecessary for the sake of clarity since a capital letter > will > > always be found at the start of a word anyway. > > > > The Gothic calender gives in addition to Naubaimbair, the > > synonymous "fruma jiuleis" (the first Jiuleis), this being the > native > > Germanic name. Judging by the Old English calendar, we can guess > > that the following month would have been "sa anthar jiuleis". > More > > speculatively, one could reconstruct Gothic forms for the other > > months according to the Old English names... > > > > Regarding the days of the week, the Bible contains Sabbato > (Saturday, > > that is The Sabbath). Also in the Bible, are "fruma sabbato" > which > > is used at Mk 15,42 for "Sabbath eve" = "the day before the > Sabbath", > > but at Mk 16,9 it signifies "the day after the Sabbath". > >

> > Intriguingly, there exist in some southern German speaking > regions > > alternate names for some weekdays, which seem to show the > influence > > of the Greek day names. It is possible that these were taken > into > > German through Gothic. Here is a list of the reconstructed > Gothic > > forms mentioned in Gerhard Koebler's "Gotisches Woerterbuch": > > > > *areinsdags - Tuesday > > *pintadags - Thursday > > *pareinsdags - Friday > > > > I have read that there is a Swiss name for Sunday: Frontag. This > > one's not mentioned in Koebler's dictionary. I wonder if it > could > > have been inspired by a Gothic *fraujinsdags? (Greek: hee > kuriakee). > > > > Llama Nom > > > > > > --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "Manie Lombard" > <manielombard@c...> > > wrote: > > > Hails! > > > > > > My name is Manie Lombard. I'm 41, married, have two children > and > > live in Viena, Austria. I'm generally interested in languages. > The > > reason why I joined this group is, because I've got some > questions. > > > > > > Are the gothic names of the week days known, and if yes, what > are > > they called? Are the names of the months known, > besides "Naubaimbair" > > in your "Kalender.int.txt"? > > > > > > In gothic, you have two "i"s. > > > In J. Wright's grammar it says: "The Gothic character was > used at > > the begining of a word and medially after a vowel not belonging > to > > the same syllable" Now I find in the Gothic "Hail Mary": > > > > > > > > > > > > Fagino Maria, > > > anstai audahafta, > > > frauja mi us; > > > iuido u n qinom, > > > iuido akran > > > qeiaus einis, Iesus. > > > > > > > > >

> > > Is the "I" of Iesus intentionally an I without two dots? And if > so, > > why? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Regards > > > > > > Manie > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > You are a member of the Gothic-L list. To unsubscribe, send a > blank email to <gothic-l-unsubscribe@egroups.com>. > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > > ADVERTISEMENT > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------> ---------> > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gothic-l/ > > > > b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > > gothic-l-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of > Service. > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > You are a member of the Gothic-L list. To unsubscribe, send a blank email > to <gothic-l-unsubscribe@egroups.com>. > Yahoo! Groups Links

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Thu Jul22,2004 10:39pm Hide Message Option View Source UseFixedWidthFont UnwrapLines "Manie Lombard" <manielombard@...> manielom Offline Send Email Principio del formulario Final del formulario Message Forward Expand Sort Author Re: [gothic-l] byMessages #7823 of Date Re: 10300 hils-2 <Prev - Hornung <Prev Re: | Next> [gothic-l] Next>Re: hils-2 - Hornung Hails Llama Nom Hils Llama Nom Yes, you are right with your translation!!! "aus d er Reihe Manie Lombard tanzen": to be different; to step out of the line Connected with... manielom Jul26,2004 <Prev Topic | Next Topic> 10:27pm Principio del formulario Message # Final del formulario Principio del formulario Search: Final del formulario Start Topic Advanced SPONSOR RESULTS The Historic Plains Hotel - Cheyenne theplainshotel.com - Historic Hotel in Downtown Cheyenne Wyoming. Book now. Historic Hotels in Lisbon www.heritage.pt - Find here four Historic Hotels in the historic center of Lisbo n. Help for Kids Language www.babybumblebee.com - Unlock your child's potential for speech and language wi th our DVDs. Copyright 2009 Yahoo! Inc. All rights reserved. Privacy Policy - Terms of Service - Copyright Policy - Guidelines - Help Re: International

Hails Fredrik! First, here's a revised version with the right number of syllables, and closer in meaning to the original too I think (although the second verse also borrows something from the German one): Usstandith allans huhraus bandjans! Usstandith uswaurpos thiude! So unraihteins skal suns gaandjan: atist airtha batizei. Thos fairnjons bandjos nu aflagjith! Urreisand aftra hlains jah dal. Jus harjis thiwe us! Framthragjith! Ni waiht, habam wairthan all. Haifst tho spediston haifstjam, uns gagahaftjandans. Alathiudaliuth laistoth, gawidan alamans. Literally: Arise ye prisoners of hunger! Arise ye outcasts of the nations! Injustice shall soon end: a better world is at hand. Let us put aside the old chains. Hill and dale will rise anew. Up ye army of slaves! Run forwards! [We are] nothing, we will be all. The last fight let us fight, uniting together. The International Song succeeds in joining all human kind. (I'm not entiresly sure of the syntax to use with *LAISTON as this is an etymological reconstruction from Koebler's dictionary, and not attested. An alternative might be "Alathiudaliuth maisto / gawidith alamans" (the greatest song of all nations), but that might sound a bit clunky/awkward. I've yet to think of a good Gothic rhyme for THATA INTAIRNATSJONALO. Some alternative translations I wondered about: gathiudalith, alathiudasaggws, etc.)

--- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "Fredrik" <gadrauhts@h...> wrote: > Hails, Llama Nom! > > --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "llama_nom" <penterakt@f...> wrote: > > > > > > > > If we treat "The International" like an adjective made into an > > abstract definite noun, I reckon it would probably be neuter: thata > > Intairnatsjonalo (cf. thata ubilo). (With AI to represent the > > short /e/ sound.) > > Is that a common/usual way to create nouns out of adjectives? > Do they always becomes neuter? What stem does these nouns, could it > possibly be n-stems / weak nouns? Probably the most common and productive methods for making abstract

nouns from adjectives in Gothic are the feminine suffixes -ei and itha. Examples of abstract neuter on-stems from adjectives are: THATA GODO 'good, goodness', and THATA UBILO 'evil', which also appears as a strong a-stem THATA UBIL. I think I suggested THATA INTAIRNATSJONALO though because it's a concrete noun: the International [thing/song]. Cf. thata andwairtho 'the present [moment]'; thata anawairtho 'the future'; thata managizo aim 'that which is more than these'; thata samo 'the same [thing]', etc... Where there is no noun stated neuter is the obvious choice, so where English might say "the red one", Gothic would say "thata raudo" (made up example), like German: "das Rote", Swedish: det rda (Is that right?).

> Btw, the usage of ai and au for monoftongs, should it be au in e.g. > aro- for ortho- in e.g. orthodoxy?

Loanwords from Greek and Latin into Gothic have AU in place of Latin short /o/ and Greek omicron, not only before R. Similarly Latin short /e/ and Greek epsilon become Gothic AI. (I mostly miss off the accents because they're hard to get on this keyboard...) For instance, Lat. November > Got. Naubaimbair.

> > That takes a bit of liberty with GADETH, since the GA- is usually > > considered to have been stressed in nouns & adjectives, unlike in > Old > > English and modern German. But it's probably acceptable, since the > > root DETH must have had a quite strong secondary stress. > > Is it always the syllable of ga- that has the stress in words with ga> prefix? > > > > > Are there any more rules of where the stresses should be? > I guess this is where i'm worst about gothic.

The traditional view is that all words have their main stress on the first syllable except for verbs, which have their main stress on the first syllable of the root not counting prefixes (which are unstressed). E.g.: us-WAIRP-an (verb) US-waurp-a (noun) and-NIM-an (verb) ANDA-nems (adjective) ga-RAID-jan (verb) GA-raid-eins (noun) The older stressed form of this prefix can be seen in Old English

geatwe 'armour' (in compounds: -getawe), but otherwise in Old English ge- is unstressed wherever it occurs. Of course, in longer words there must have been secondary stresses somewhere in Gothic. But there is little information about where these might have fallen. It has been suggested that there must have been a secondary stress on the first GA of words like ga-ga-haftjan, ga-ga-mainjan, etc. Other clues might be found in Old English and Old Norse verse. Since these occasionally make a seconadary stress count as a full stress, for the sake of the metre, we might have a bit of freedom there. There is a natural tendency in many languages not to have strong stresses close together, and to alternate between stronger and weaker stresses. But awarness of the semantic elements of the word might counteract this sometimes. Since the other Germanic languages de-stressed the ga- prefix, and placed the stress on the root, it could have been the root that had the secondary stress in Gothic (...unless in Old English, etc. the change just came about by analogy with the verbs, which is quite possible). For a generalised change of secondary to primary stress, cf. the difference between Polish & Czech. I also wonder about a verb like ATWISAN 'to be near at hand'. Since the meaning depends more on the AT than WISAN, it would be easy to imagine the prefix having more emphasis sometimes, as perhaps in the fourth line of my latest version. Maybe it depended a bit on the context, just as in English you might stress something that wasn't normally stressed if that was especially important to the meaning, or to make a contrast. Another thing I've wondered, is whether Gothic had a lexically significant pitch accent besides the stress accent, like Swedish! But I don't know of any evidence one way of the other.

> > > > > > > > >

> Afwairpam bandjom midjungardis. > Was aftra gasatiths hlains jah dal. > Nist nauths uns stauins aiththau wardis. > Ni waiht, weis habam wairthan all. > This is a good version too. Does the first sentence mean smth like 'we throw off the chains of the world'? About 'bandi' does it mean 'chain' or could it probably mean band/bond too?

Yes, that's right: BANDI means literally 'bond'. It has a lot of synonyms in Gothic, but I'm not sure if any of them meant specifically 'chain' to the exclusion of other types of restraint. I don't think there are any clues in the etymologies, although EISARNA is literally 'irons'. I guess you could look at the Greek words they translate and investigate how these were used in New Testament times; and see if there are any hints in the use of Germanic cognates, but still we might never know for sure. I rejected that line anyway because "chains of the world" is a bit ambiguous (more like The Gnostic International!), and the original sense is of getting rid of tradition and the tyranny of the past, rather than the world in general.

> > > > (-wairpan can take dative or accusative) "We have no need of > > judges/rulers or guards." (Compare Portuguese: no mais > senhores!) > > That's probably saying the same as all the versions which have the > > theme of "no more in thrall", no masters = no slaves. > > > In the swedish version we have 'slav, stig upp fr att sl dig fri!' > which means 'thrall, arise to break free.' The signification is the > same. Did you have anything of this meaning in your first version? See the new version. There is actually attested in Gothic: so sunja frijans izwis briggith "the truth will make you free" So we could have: Thius, usstand ei thuk freis briggais! Masculine adjectives and pronouns seem to be used by default where no individual of a specific sex is mentioned, although a male/female pair can be described with a neuter adjective/pronoun. Mixed groups often have masculine adjectives, but where at least one woman is specifically mentioned in the sentance neuter is used. That said, it might be preferable (politically) to avoid gender specific grammar where possible. > > > > > > > I also have some completely different questions. > Did the goths have anything like 'good day' for greeting or did they > use anything else? If they used it how did they say it? > I've thought about it and at first I thought 'gos dags', which > litteraly means good day. But then I thought 'godan dag'. You > probably know what i'm thinking about there. The adjective is > masculine singular accusative and weak, the noun is also masculine > accusative singular. As model I've used german 'guten tag' which has > that form because of it could fit in the sentence 'ich wnsche dir > einen guten tag' = I wish you a good day, with 'you' in dative > and 'day' in accusative. > The whole sentence could be smth like this in gothic, maybe: > Ik gairnja us ainana godan dag. (The word for 'wish' that I used > isn't probably the right one but you probably understand it anyway i > hope) > > Good thinking. You're probably right about GODANA DAG, a version of which is actually attested in Crimean Gothic: knauen tag. How accurately this represents the pronunciation is unclear, but it certainly suggests an accusative as in modern German. Maybe the full unstated wish would be: habais godana dag 'may you have a good day', with the subjunctive (which happens to have to same form as the indicative with HABAN).

GAIRNJAN, and verbs of wishing, desiring, and asking for, usually take the genitive case for the thing desired, e.g. L 19,31 frauja is gairnei "the lord desires it" (literally "the lord desires of that"). There was a discussion a few months ago in this group about the use of HAILS in greetings and acclamations. There is evidence to suggest that it could have been a greeting (like "hal!" in Old English), a formal salutation or acclamation ("hail, King of the Jews" J 19,3 hails iudans Iudaie!, Mk 15,18 hails, iudan Iudaie!), and a toast said before drinking. Literally: "[be] healthy/well". In Old English it is inflected for number, so maybe you'd say in Gothic to more than one person HAILAI (males, or mixed group), HAILOS (females), HAILA (a man and a woman, or a mixed group). Old English can include the verb: WES HAL 'be well', or plural WESATH HAL. So maybe the Goths sometimes said: SIJAIS HAILS, SIJAITS/SIJAITH HAILAI. There's also at Rom 6,22: golja izwis 'I greet you'. Gawairthi, Llama Nom Exempli Grati: 1a) direct borrowing: repronounced ata e:mal; e:maljan 1b) direct borrowing: respelt ata eime:l; eime:lan, eime:lo:n 2) literal translation: (e[lectronic]+mail) - translate electronic = MnE of amber = ? *rab + *inei (Ice. rafeind) - translate mail = ? use standby *po:sts? *poss? - put together ra[bainei]poss > raposs I won't even bother with the verb! 3) loose translation: (quickletter) incidentally, would that be a brief brief? - sniumjan (to hasten) + aipistula/bok(il)a/bref/post > sniumeiboka, etc. - sprauto (quickly) or suns (soon) + one of the above (e.g. sunspost) - verbal form with sandjan or -jan suffix. I've admitted 'post' because of its handiness and pervasiveness... 4) wait, this is too good. Gothic word for 'to write'? me:ljan! the resemblance is uncanny! Also includes meaning 'enroll'. Send off = ufme:ljan....etc. etc. You have Wright...it should be there. There or in Bennett. We're almost back to approach no. 1! - sandeime:lei = mail (noun); sprautme:lei = email (noun) - ufmeljan = mail (verb); sprautmeljan = email (verb) I've got to look into this further. You have any ideas? Cheers, Matt > Was Hal Jah sijais u hails! > I am interested in finding out what the Goths called their Thunder God. >Now was it the same as the Continental Germans Donar which actually spelled >was Edh or (Eth) so the name was spelled Thonar or Dhonar.

> d was a late change occurring in German, not even found in English, let alone the more distantly related Gothic, although a similar change took place even later in Scandinavian languages _except_ for Icelandic. (This is a suitable caution against using a single phonetic feature to relate pairs of languages; it would imply that the -conserving English and Icelandic form a grouping as against the continental Scandinavian languages, German, and Dutch; which of course they do not; Icelandic and English are simply more archaic in this instance than the others.) The early Germanic form of the name was unaraz, which must have meant (as in West Germanic) "thunder", though in other languages it apparently was reserved for the name of the god. The Gothic form would have been _unars_; but the actual Gothic word for thunder was eihwo. Other divine names which we can reconstruct are: *Wodans = Woden, Oinn *Nairus = Njrr (there is a little more basis for this name; Tacitus described "Nerthus" as a Germanic _goddess_; of course nouns in -us can be either masculine or feminine, and the Norse Vanir seem to have been of obscure gender generally!) *Teiws = Tiw, Tyr *Sibja = Sif *Luka = Loki If the Goths had used similar day-names to those of other Germanic peoples (based on Roman names), they might have had: Sunday: Sunnins/Sunnons/Sauilis Dags Monday: Menins Dags Tuesday: Teiwis Dags (Teiws was considered the Germanic equivalent to Mars) Wednesday: Wodanis Dags (Wodans was considered the Germanic equivalent to Mercury) Thursday: unaris Dags (unars was considered the Germanic equivalent to Jupiter) Friday: Friddjos Dags _or_ Fraujons Dags (one of these goddesses was considered to be equivalent to Venus) Saturday: Sataurnis Dags (I suppose; I don't think any Germanic god was used to replace the Roman Saturnus) /\ WISTR LAG WIGS RAIHTS \/ WRAIQS NU IST <> David Salo In order to write about current events in Gothic, it would be helpful to have a handlist of country-names to work from. Without any pretensions as to the finality or infallibility of this list, I tried thinking of some names for European countries. My guidelines were: if the name of a country used by the people of that country is in a Germanic language, it should be rendered into a cognate form in Gothic. If a country has a Germanic name used by speakers of a Germanic language in another country, that name should also be used, at least if there is some antiquity to the name. If a country has a Latin or Greek name, it should be Gothicized according to Wulfila's methods of Gothicization. If a country has a name in a quite foreign tongue, without Germanic or Latin/Greek variants, that name should be preserved with whatever sound changes are required to allow it to be spelled with the Gothic alphabet. We already have some names of countries in the Gothic Bible itself: Arabia = Arabia Iaurdanus = Jordan Israel = Israel Macedonia = Makidona or Makidonja Swria = Syria Here's what I came up with:

English name Proposed Gothic name Proposed Adjective Albania Albania Albanisks Austria Austrareiki Austrareikisks (from sterreich) Bosnia Bausna Bausnisks Belarus Belarus Belarussisks Bulgaria Bulgaria Bulgarisks Croatia Krauatia Krauatisks Czech Republic Tjehiska Respublika??? Tjehisks (n.b.: how do you represent "cz" or ch in Gothic? And what would be a good Gothic word for "Republic"?) Cyprus Kwprus Kwprisks Denmark Danemarka Danisks (one Dane should be a Dans, pl. Daneis) Egypt Aigwptus Aigwptisks Greece Krekaneland Kreks (Kreks is attested; Krekaneland "Land of Greeks(Krekans)" is suggested by Griechenland/Grkenland/Griekenland) Ireland Eireland Eirisks (from OE ras, the Irish, but happily resembling ire as well) England Aggileland Aggilisks (from OE Engla-land, Land of Angles (people from the region called Angel)) Estonia Estiland Estisks Finland Finneland Finnisks France Fragkereiki Fragkisks (from Frankreich, Frankrijk, Frankrike) Germany Thiudisk Land Thiudisks (from Deutschland/Tyskland) Great Britain Mikila Britannia Britannisks Greenland Groniland Gronilandisks Hungary Unugur Unugrisks (Hungary, Ungarn, etc. come from the Turkish On Ogur) Iceland Eisaland Eisalandisks Italy Italia Italisks Kosovo Kausauba Kausaubisks Latvia Latwia Latwisks Lithuania Litwa Litwisks Luxemburg Lutilinbaurgs Lutilinbaurgisks (From older German Lucilinburhuc; one citizen of Luxemburg could be a Lutilinbaurgja!) Moldova Mauldauba Mauldaubisks Norway Naurthrawigs Naurthrisks, Naurthroneis (From Norge, earlier Norvegr, and Norskr, Norroenn) The Netherlands Tho Nithizalanda Nithizalandisks New Zealand Niwi Saiwaland Niwi Saiwalandisks (Zeeland in the Netherlands is Sea-land) Poland Pauliska Paulisks Portugal Paurtugal Paurtuges (pl. Paurtugesai) Romania Rumania Rumanisks (cf. Rumaneis "Romans") Russia Russeland Russisks Scandinavia Skadinahwja Skadinahwisks (properly refers to the region of Skne in Sweden, though) Scotland Skutteland Skuttisks (OE Scottas "Scots", with short o) Slovakia Slaubakia Slaubaks Slovenia Slaubenia Slaubens, Slaubenisks Spain Hispania Hispanisks Sweden Swijareiki Swijanisks (from Sverige, Svensk; one Swede should be a Swija)

Switzerland So Sweits Sweitisks (from die Schweiz) Turkey Twrkia Twrkisks (Why pass up the opportunity to indicate the original ?) Ukraine Ukraina Ukrainisks Wales Walhos (plural) Walhisks Yugoslavia Jugoslabia Jugoslabisks Helpful comments and corrections are more than welcome. /\ WISTR LAG WIGS RAIHTS [gothic-l] Re: Rune Names & the Yngwie-Rock jdm31-@... wrote: original article:http://www.egroups.com/group/gothic-l/?start=1026 > For one of the modern efforts to which you refer, compare > http://www.indigo.ie/egt/standards/iso10646/plane-1/gt.html > > thiudans <mcarve-@...> wrote: > original article:http://www.egroups.com/group/gothic-l/?start=1021 > > I forget the original post, but there was some discussion over letter > > names. It seemed to me that some people had invented names for the > > gothic letters. But here I was reading through "Handbuch" and find a > > set of names already almost complete, along with reconstructed > versions > > of the missing names based on the Latin transcriptions for them. The > > only problems seem to be P and Z. Krause makes a point that, although > > it seems Wulfila replaced letternames of the runic system with less > > "heathen" names, yet he left X "enguz" BGo *iggws, which however > occurs > > almost only in Xristus "Christ". *Iggws is according to her one of > the > > names of the highest gods and the god-like prototype of man, the > central > > concern of the so-called "Ingwaeonen" I also heard that Ing-, could mean speargod. So names like Ingvar, Inge and Ingvald, could also be connected with a speargod(a nickname for Oden?). But whether pious Wulfila saw > > that this would all eventually culminate in the (un)fortunate result of > > a certain 20th century guitar-"god" has yet to be confirmed. > Modern-day > > "Yngwie-onians" refuse to comment. PSThe most well known person with visigothic roots? Probably Geri Halliwell, with a spanish motherDS Ik kenna mik fibursiuks..!I feel feversick!(38,5 C, flu-Not sure) Jag knner mig febersjuk! Gutulf

> > > > Matthaius > > > > > > v=hv > > y=th > > > > 1 a aza *ahsa "Achse" > > 2 b bercna *bairkan "Birkenreis" > > 3 g giuua giba gift > > 4 d daaz dags day > > 5 e eyz *aivs (?) horse (?) > > 6 q quertra qairyra "Kder" > > 7 z ezet/ezec ? *algiz "Elchgottheit" (? = Wodans) > > 8 h haal *hagl hail > > 9 y thyth yiuy good > > 10 i iiz *eis ice > > 20 k chozma *kusma "Geschwr" (?) > > 30 l laaz *lagus water > > 40 m manna manna human > > 50 n noicz nauys need > > 60 j gaar jer year > > 70 u uraz *urus aurochs > > 80 p pertra *pairyra ? > > 90 > > 100 r reda *raida wagon (?) > > 200 s sugil sauil sun > > 300 t tyz *teiws god > > 400 w uuinne winja(*wunja?) "Weideplatz" (? Wonne) > > 500 f fe faihu wealth > > 600 x enguz *iggws man > > 700 v uuaer *vair kettle > > 800 o utal *oyal inheritance > > 900 >

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