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EXHIBIT 2
COUNCIL ON AMERICAN-ISLAMIC RELATIONS ACTION NETWORK, INC., ET AL. v. GAUBATZ, ET AL. NIHAD AWAD HAMMAD
January 9, 2013
Bingham Farms/Southfield Grand Rapids Ann Arbor Detroit Flint Jackson Lansing Mt. Clemens Saginaw
Case 1:09-cv-02030-CKK Document 154-3 Filed 05/19/13 Page 3 of 33 NIHAD AWAD HAMMAD January 9, 2013 Page 1 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Pages: 1 - 162 Lee Bursten, RMR, CRR Deposition of NIHAD AWAD HAMMAD Washington, DC Wednesday, January 9, 2013 10:04 a.m. v. PAUL DAVID GAUBATZ, et al., Defendants. UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT FOR THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -x COUNCIL ON AMERICAN-ISLAMIC RELATIONS ACTION NETWORK, INC., et al., Plaintiffs, : : : : : : : Judge Colleen Kollar-Kotelly Civil Action No. 09-cv-2030 (CKK-JMF)
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Reported By:
Case 1:09-cv-02030-CKK Document 154-3 Filed 05/19/13 Page 4 of 33 NIHAD AWAD HAMMAD January 9, 2013 Page 2 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Pursuant to notice, before Lee Bursten, Registered Merit Reporter, Certified Realtime Reporter, and Notary Public in and for the District of Columbia, who officiated in administering the oath to the witness. CENTER FOR SECURITY POLICY 1901 Pennsylvania Avenue, NW Suite 201 Washington, DC 20006 (202) 379-4960 Deposition of NIHAD AWAD HAMMAD, held at the offices of:
Case 1:09-cv-02030-CKK Document 154-3 Filed 05/19/13 Page 5 of 33 NIHAD AWAD HAMMAD January 9, 2013 Page 3 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 ON BEHALF OF THE CSP DEFENDANTS: DAVID YERUSHALMI, ESQUIRE CENTER FOR SECURITY POLICY 1901 Pennsylvania Avenue, NW Suite 201 Washington, DC 20006 (202) 379-4960 ON BEHALF OF DAVID YERUSHALMI, SOCIETY OF AMERICANS FOR NATIONAL EXISTENCE, AND THE CSP DEFENDANTS: ROBERT J. MUISE, ESQUIRE AMERICAN FREEDOM LAW CENTER P.O. Box 131098 Ann Arbor, Michigan 48113 (734) 635-3756 (Present via telephone) A P P E A R A N C E S ON BEHALF OF PLAINTIFFS AND THE WITNESS: GADEIR ABBAS, ESQUIRE NADHIRA AL-KHALILI, ESQUIRE COUNCIL ON AMERICAN-ISLAMIC RELATIONS 453 New Jersey Avenue, SE Washington, DC 20003 (202) 742-6033
Case 1:09-cv-02030-CKK Document 154-3 Filed 05/19/13 Page 6 of 33 NIHAD AWAD HAMMAD January 9, 2013 Page 4 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 ALSO PRESENT: CHRIS ALLEN GAUBATZ MARTIN GARBUS, ESQUIRE LAW OFFICE OF MARTIN GARBUS 3 Park Avenue 16th Floor New York, New York 10016 (212) 561-3625 A P P E A R A N C E S C O N T I N U E D
ON BEHALF OF THE GAUBATZ DEFENDANTS: DANIEL HOROWITZ, ESQUIRE LAW OFFICE OF DANIEL HOROWITZ P.O. Box 1547 Lafayette, California 94549 (925) 283-1863
Case 1:09-cv-02030-CKK Document 154-3 Filed 05/19/13 Page 7 of 33 NIHAD AWAD HAMMAD January 9, 2013 Page 5 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Exhibit 11 E X H I B I T S (Retained by counsel.) CSP DEPOSITION EXHIBITS Exhibit 10 Excerpt from Boim versus Quranic Literacy Institute deposition transcript Screenshot of CAIR website 128 PAGE 126 C O N T E N T S EXAMINATION OF NIHAD AWAD HAMMAD By Mr. Yerushalmi By Mr. Horowitz PAGE 39 116
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Is there any reason I should not be taking For example, are you under
medication, under the influence of any drug or alcohol or suffering from any mental disease or defect? A Q No. And that's just a formal question, it What is
appears to me you're lucid and coherent. your formal legal name? A Q Nihad Awad Hammad.
that on many legal documents and also publicly, you represent yourself as Nihad Awad, correct? A Q Yes. Why do you use that shorter name as opposed
to your legal name, for example on legal documents? A It's a cultural thing.
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notice that at the top of every page, if you open that three-ring binder, you will see a Bates number, as we call them. You can ignore the prefixes and go Do you see those? So
at the very top of the page, I'm now pointing to your first page. A Q You see this Bates 1265? Yes. And so when I refer to a page number or if
I might say Bates number, that's the number I'm referring to, not to any other page number that might appear on the document. A Q number. A Q Okay. And every page of Exhibit 6 has a Bates They run consecutively. Okay. I'm going to ask you to turn to Bates 1393 Okay? Is that agreeable?
government of the District of Columbia identifying the Council on American-Islamic Relations Action
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of incorporation was the 15th day of September, 1994? A Q Yes. Now, in fact, when -- let's do something You're currently the executive
director of the Council on American-Islamic Relations? A Q A Q Yes. Otherwise known as CAIR, correct? Yes. Now, when you -- strike that. You were one
of the founding members of CAIR, correct? A Q Yes. In fact, you were one of the founding
incorporators of CAIR, correct? A Q A Q Yes. And you founded CAIR in 1994? Correct. And in 1994, it wasn't referred to as the
Council on American-Islamic Relations Action Network Inc.; it was just referred to as the Council on American-Islamic Relations, Inc., correct? A I can't remember.
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CAIR that was founded in 1994 from its inception to today? A Q Yes. You also serve on the board of directors at
to this entity that was created in 1994 for which you've served as the executive director from its inception until today. A Q Yes. If I use a different name, for example, the Okay?
Council on American-Islamic Relations Action Network Inc., I'm referring to that specific entity, okay? A Q Okay. And if I refer to CAIR Foundation Inc., I'm Okay?
between the Council on American-Islamic Relations Inc. -- CAIR -- and the Council on American-Islamic Relations Action Network Inc.? A Q I don't know. I'm sorry?
Case 1:09-cv-02030-CKK Document 154-3 Filed 05/19/13 Page 12 of 33 NIHAD AWAD HAMMAD January 9, 2013 Page 52 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 two? A Q Yes. And do you know the difference between the A Q I don't know. You don't know the difference between the
Council on American-Islamic Relations Action Network Inc. and CAIR Foundation Inc.? A Q Almost. Before we go to the "almost," let me ask
you, what do you understand the Council on American-Islamic Relations Action Network Inc. to be? A Well, over the years, the organization was Then the board met So
and changed names and did different registration. I don't recall the similarities or differences between the organizations.
I believe CAIR Foundation and CAIR Action Network. Q So let's shorten the names, as you just If we say CAIR
Action Network, we're going to be referring to the Council on American-Islamic Relations Action Network Inc., agreeable? A Q Okay. And that is the organization you just
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referring to CAIR Foundation Inc.? A Q A Q Okay. Is that agreeable? That's fine. Now, you indicated that when you
incorporated CAIR Inc., and again, that's our shorthand for the Council on American-Islamic Relations Inc., correct? A Q Okay. And that was the organization that you
began in 1994, correct? A Q correct? A Q Yes. At some point in time, that organization's Yes. And you recall that being its name,
board changed its name; is that what you understand to have taken place? A Q Vaguely. My memory is vague.
name of CAIR Inc. or whether they just started a new organization called CAIR Action Network? A Well, the board met several times with
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And so I'm not asking for any legal I'm simply asking for your understanding And that's all I will ask for
Okay?
I'll take CSP Exhibit 6 back for just a I'm going to hand you what's been marked as If you would open that
three-ring binder to the first page, which is Bates 1217. A Q Do you see the Bates stamp at the very top? Yes. Now, in addition, there is a second group Let me just for the record, and I
of documents.
already indicated when we were talking about all the exhibits, these documents were provided to us by your counsel, Mr. Abbas, yesterday, as an additional production in this case. And I'm looking at a Form Do you see that?
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this particular IRS document, Council on American-Islamic Relations Inc.? A Q Yes. And you see at the bottom of this page that
the date of the preparation is 9/16, 2012? A Q Yes. If I ask you to turn your attention to the
box on the form labeled B as in boy, it's right underneath the 2010 top right. A Q Which one? The box labeled B. And it has a number for Do you see that?
Do you see that? Yes. Are you familiar with CAIR Inc.'s employer
identification number? A Q No. Are you familiar with CAIR Action Network's
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bottom of the page, do you see where it has a signature line and it has a printed box, "Sign here"? A Q Yes. And then if you follow that signature line
across, you see that there's a place for signature, a date, and it identifies the signor as a director. you see that? A Q A Q Yes. Are you still a director of CAIR Inc.? Yes. And would you be the one that would sign Do
this IRS filing? A Q After the CPA prepares it. Have you seen this document before? And in
fact, it consists of several pages, and you can flip through it if it would help, through Bates 1239. That would be the end of that Form 1120. Okay. So...
Are you familiar with that document? I can't remember. Do you recall signing this document? I have to see if I did. But you don't recall sitting here today
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the IRS, but I need to see the actual one to see if I did or not. Q I understand. I'm simply asking, do you
recall today having signed the document? A Q I have to see if I did or not. Right. Meaning that you don't recall
sitting here, without the document in front of you, signed -A Q A Q A Q Yes. -- whether you signed it or not? Yes. I can't tell you.
Again -Unless I see the actual document. Okay. Again, I'll ask both of us to slow
respond, okay? A Q Sure. At the bottom of Bates 1217, the first page
of this document, at the bottom of the page, it says, "Paid preparer use only," and there's a name, G. F. Joey Musmar CPA of Miller Musmar PC. that? A Q Yes. Do you know who that individual and that Do you see
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what this filing is for? A 2010." Q And it's for the Council on It says "US Corporation Income Tax Return,
American-Islamic Relations Inc., correct? A Q Yes. And that is the organization that you
founded and for which you serve as the executive director? A Q Yes. Are you paid for your services as an
executive director of CAIR Inc.? A Q Yes. And have you been paid for your services
throughout CAIR Inc.'s existence? A Q Yes. Now, we talked a little bit earlier about
CAIR Action Network and CAIR Foundation, correct? A Q Yes. And you had some idea about the distinction
Case 1:09-cv-02030-CKK Document 154-3 Filed 05/19/13 Page 19 of 33 NIHAD AWAD HAMMAD January 9, 2013 Page 59 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 between those two entities. Would you tell me what
you understand to be the difference between those two entities? A Q No, I cannot tell you exactly. Do you serve in any official capacity for
CAIR Action Network? A Q I think I'm a board member. A board member. Are you executive director
or an officer of that company? A Q I'm executive director of CAIR Foundation. So you serve as the executive director of
CAIR Inc. and of CAIR Foundation? A Q CAIR Foundation. Did you not testify earlier that you serve
as the executive director of CAIR Inc.? A Q A Q A No, I said CAIR Foundation. Okay. So again, looking --
I told you that -- are you done? Please. The names have changed over the years. And
I'm not privy to the exact distinction between the various organizations. I serve in my capacity as And I have a
good understanding of what this organization is. Q I didn't hear the last part.
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what that represents, and my capacity in that organization. Q I direct your attention again to the first And we were talking
about the Council on American-Islamic Relations Inc. Form 1120 2010 filing. A Q A Q This one? Yes. Yes. And I asked you if you were the executive And your answer was Do you see that?
executive director of the Council on American-Islamic Relations Inc.? A Q A Q A Q Okay. I think you're confusing me.
And I don't mean to. Okay. So let's start over. Okay. What is your relationship to the Council on
American-Islamic Relations Inc., the organization that filed this Form 1120 in the year 2010, which is CSP Depo Exhibit 5, Bates number 1217? MR. ABBAS: Objection, mischaracterizes the
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Well, that would be an interesting This is the document that your attorneys
provided to us yesterday. A Q Okay. As the most recent filings of the Council And I'm simply
asking you what your relationship is to this organization, the Council on American-Islamic Relations Inc. know. A Q A Now, if you don't know, you don't
It's not a trick question. It does not have my name here. Right. So if I have my name, I will have better
memory to answer your question more correctly. Q Okay. Now, you do recognize that CPA firm
we just looked at at the bottom, Miller Musmar PC. A Q Yes. And they are the accounting firm for which
organization?
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understanding, for the entities that -- under the auspices of the organization. Q And to the best of your understanding, what
are those organizations that are under the auspices of CAIR? A I do not have exact description of those But I know that this CPA that you
organizations.
mentioned does accounting for the organizations that we are involved in. Q Now, I don't want exact descriptions. I
just want the name of those organizations that fall under the auspices of CAIR. A You mentioned several names for me. So I speak to the Court now. And So if
it's confusing.
I do not know exactly, I should not tell you something I'm not 100 percent sure. Q A Q That's absolutely correct. Yes. And so the answers to various questions can
be a substantive answer if you know, if it requires a specific answer. question. know. A It can be a yes if it's a yes-no And it can be I don't
It can be a no.
Correct? Yes.
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organizations "under the auspices of CAIR"? A Q I know that I work for CAIR Foundation. Is there a name of any other organization
under the auspices of CAIR? A I think our attorneys have a better grasp And since I'm speaking to the
of those entities.
Court, I will not be accurate if I give you a different answer than what I gave you. Q of CAIR? A We have been using the CAIR name in Is CAIR Foundation Inc. under the auspices
different capacities now from the beginning of this deposition, so do you mean "CAIR" equals CAIR Foundation, in your question to me? Q No. Let's define -- and to be clear, it So
was your term, "under the auspices of CAIR." let's just put that aside for now. A Q Maybe that wasn't accurate.
as well, and the record will make that clear at the end of the day. So let's step back for a moment.
And you see the address on this Form 1120, 453 New Jersey Avenue, Southeast, Washington, DC, 20003? A 453 New Jersey Avenue, Southeast, yes.
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you sometimes refer to as CAIR National? A Q Yes. When you use the word "CAIR" alone and
"CAIR National," are you referring to the same organization? A Yes. The organization I work with, which And sometimes people refer to it
is CAIR Foundation.
CAIR, and sometimes they refer to it CAIR National. Q So you refer to CAIR or CAIR National -When you refer to CAIR or CAIR
strike that.
National, you're referring to CAIR Foundation Inc.? A Q The organization I work for. Are there any other organizations related
to CAIR Foundation Inc. that exist at that address, 453 New Jersey Avenue, Southeast, Washington, DC, 20003? A That's a technical question. And I think
our lawyers would have a better description and ability to answer that. Q Do you know of any organizations associated
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executive director of CAIR Foundation, correct? A Q Yes. And how long have you been the executive
director of CAIR Foundation? A Q A Q A Since it was registered. And when was it registered? I don't recall exactly. Would it be approximately 1994? Well, from the beginning of the deposition,
we said that I was one of the incorporators of the name you mentioned to me. Then CAIR Foundation I do not
Foundation is a successor entity to whatever that organization was in 1994? MR. ABBAS: Objection, vague as to what
BY MR. YERUSHALMI: Q Fair enough. I'm going to take CSP And I'm going to put
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Mr. Awad,
are you at Bates 1394 of CSP Deposition Exhibit 6? This number at the top. A Q Yes. This is a certificate from the government And it reads as Do you see that?
provisions of the District of Columbia Nonprofit Corporation Act have been complied with and accordingly this certificate of incorporation is hereby issued to Council on American-Islamic Relations Inc. as of September 15th, 1994." Do you see that? Yes. Did you have anything to do with the
founding of the Council on American-Islamic Relations Inc. on September 15th, 1994? A Q Yes. And what was your involvement in 1994
post-September 15th with the Council on American-Islamic Relations Inc.? A I believe I was one of the incorporators,
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any relationship or association with the Council on American-Islamic Relations Inc.? A I just needed to know if -- what you mean
by any role besides my being an incorporator. Q Fair enough. Did you serve on the board of
directors at any time from September 15, 1994 until today, on the Council on American-Islamic Relations Inc.? A It's been 19 years, so I don't have exact
memory of how these evolved over time. Q present. But my question was from 1994 to the So it includes very recent memory. So I'll
September 15th, 1994, until today, on the Council on American-Islamic Relations Inc.? A I served as a member of the board on
Council on American-Islamic Relations, abbreviated with CAIR, since the beginning, 1994. Q When you say "abbreviated with CAIR," what
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been saying since the beginning of the deposition varies. It's confusing. And I'm not an attorney.
So just my affiliation with the organization is being an executive director of CAIR. Those names have changed over the time. There have been some registration and reregistration. I'm not privy to the details of the variations of the names, if any. Q Thank you. A Q Okay. I would have you turn to the next page, And you will see And that's a perfectly legitimate answer.
that this document represents the articles of incorporation that were filed on September 15, 1994 of the Council on American-Islamic Relations Inc. in the District of Columbia. through Bates 1399. Are you familiar with this document, And this document runs
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tooth, it's an even longer period of time. A Q Exhibit 6. A Q Right. Let me ask you to turn to Bates 1398 of Are you there, Mr. Awad? Yes, sir. You see under article IX, a listing of the
directors of the Council on American-Islamic Relations Inc. which is also referred to as CAIR? A Q Yes. Could you read those names that are listed
there, please. A Q A Q From the top? From the top. Rafeeq, R-A-F-E-E-Q, J-A-B-E-R. Let me just repeat for the record so Rafeeq Jaber, R-A-F-E-E-Q,
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directors of the Council on American-Islamic Relations in 1994? A Q A Q Yes. And would you read the next name, please. Omar Ahmad. And again for the record, that's spelled
O-M-A-R, last name A-H-M-A-D; is that correct? A Q Yes. And do you recall Mr. Ahmad serving on the
board of directors of the Council on American-Islamic Relations Inc. in 1994? A Q A Q A Q correct? A Q A Q Correct. And would that be you? Yes. And do you recall serving on the board of Yes. And do you know a Mr. Omar Ahmad? Yes. And the last name, please. Nehad Hammad. And that's spelled N-E-H-A-D, H-A-M-M-A-D,
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incorporators, please. A Q Rafeeq Jaber. And was that the same Rafeeq Jaber that we
saw above as a board member? A Q A Q It looks like it. In fact, it's the same address, correct? It looks like it. And the next name on the list of initial
incorporators, please? A Q Omar Ahmad. And do you know if that's the same Omar
Ahmad that's listed as a board member? A Q I believe so. Do you recall that Mr. Jaber and Mr. Ahmad
were your co-incorporators in 1994? A Q Yes. And of course, the last name under article
X is your name, correct? A Q Yes. So the three of you gentlemen served as the
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record, Bates 1399 of CSP Depo Exhibit Number 6, you see the signatures of all three of you gentlemen, and they're all notarized. A Q Yes. Does that appear to be your signature under Do you see that?
the "Nehad Hammad" signature line or above it? A Q Yes. Now, I'm interested in Mr. Ahmad, Omar
Ahmad, who served with you as a co-incorporator and co-board member for CAIR Inc. or Council on American-Islamic Relations Inc. And if I say "CAIR"
or "CAIR Inc.," we're referring to this organization that we have been looking at now, the Council on American-Islamic Relations Inc., incorporated in 1994. Is that agreeable?
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the initial incorporator of CAIR Inc., did you have any other role over the years with CAIR Inc.? A As I said, I have been the founding
executive director of CAIR from day one until now. Q A Q Until now? Yes. Now, Mr. Omar Ahmad served as an initial
board member with you in CAIR Inc., the Council on American-Islamic Relations Inc., and as a co-incorporator. with CAIR Inc.? MR. ABBAS: BY MR. YERUSHALMI: Q A Q A Go ahead and answer. For a number of years. Do you recall when his relationship ended? I can't exactly remember the date; but yes, Objection, relevance. How long was Mr. Ahmad involved