Host We will soon activate DTM feature in some cells in our network and test it after ALU B10

migration, so here are my questions: -is Gs interface mandatory in DTM feature? -what are the ways to test the good working of DTM? -what NMO should we have? and finally which type of mobile could we use to test DTM? ================================================================================ ================================================================================ ==== ================================================================================ ================================================================================ ==== Pix Gs ve 12is not mandatory. only benefit of Gs is the ability for a subscriber to recei a phone call while browsing. Without Gs, the user can still: Make a phone call while browsing. Receive and Send data while in a voice call.

Best way to test is: without Gs, I would say you should perform a DT + UL FTP (DL+UL) and establish a call while doing the FTP transfer. Why UL+DL? So that you have a TBF in both di rections that should be re-establish after the call setup. you can see how the throughputs are impacted ofcourse, most users are going to use Web Browsing rather than FTP. so you are a ctually testing the worst case scenario. then, while doing a call, start a FTP DL Transfer. then, still during a voice call, ask someone to send you a MMS. Aslo, during a call, change Routing Area: the routing area update should be tran smitted over FACCH, and that should not impact the voice quality too much. During all these tests, the MS should be GPRS-ATTACHED NMO- Leave it to NMO II, because you don't have the Gs Interface. ================================================================================ ================================================================================ === Safar Hi pix, Through Gs interface, can we improve the PAGING SUCCESS RATE? because the user w ill get paging at the same time. Pix As i explained earlier, a user can RECEIVE a phone call while browsing, thanks t o Gs interface. with the Gs Interface, the paging is failed. yes for this reason only the GS interface will improve the Paging success rate. but on the other hand, it also induces an additional interface to configure and therefore induces a risk of misconfiguration or congestion, leading to paging losses Safdar, Hi pix, without Gs interface you can still do PS CS at the same time by using DT

M. only concern is with that with Gs interface you can improve paging success ra te Host Thanks pix for these clarifications. last thing. do you have any idea about Gs i nterface usage by different operators across the globe? Pix it is rather low, and will tend to disappear. indeed the "CS-Paging while MS is in Packet Transfer Mode" feature will tend to be done by the BSC. i am sure it is already being done by most vendors. For example, Alcatel is proposing this feature in B11. Bijoy Hi All! i would like to add some more info. there are 2 terms "Paging Coordinati on" and "IMSI Coordination" the MSC and SGSN provides BSS with information regarding which IMSI belongs to w hich connection and by coordinating the IMSI information from the CS and PS doma ins the BSS can make the paging handling more efficient. At both PS and CS paging, t he IMSI is used to coordinate that the paging message is always sent on a channe l that is being monitored by a DTM mobile. That is, on PACCH when CS paging is performe d in Packet Transfer Mode, on FACCH when PS paging is performed in dedicated mod e, and else on PCH/PPCH. DTM and the IMSI coordination also has the benefit that non-DTM MSs can be reach ed by a CS page when in packet transfer mode regardless of network operation mod e (regardless of whether the Gs interface is used or not). this functionality is a vailable also when DTM is OFF in a cell, but the feature must be available. One exception is when the MS is involved in a pure UL transfer, then DTM needs to be enabled in the cell to ensure that CS page is sent on the PACH. Pix "One exception is whether the MS is involved in a pure UL transfer. Then the DTM needs to be enabled in the cell to ensure that the CS page is sent on the PACCH " Do you know what is the reason behind this restriction? i have never heard of it and cant think of any reason why it wouldnot be possible. a non dtm MS can rece ive the CS paging on the DL PACCH, suspend its TBF and resume it later can't it? ================================================================================ ================================================================================ ======= Bijoy pix! yes but in that case DTM has to be enabled in that cell, is not it? ================================================================================ ================================================================================ ======= Hi pix, bijoy In dtm enabled network you will not get 100% benefit because not all mobiles are DTM enabled while with Gs interface you will get benefit of 100%. Right? In my network in normal case without DTM and Gs interface, while doing data down

load and somebody tries to call him then it shows not reachable. so i want to as k here paging lost or what? ================================================================================ ================================================================================ ======= Bijoy, well, even with DTM in the cell, a MS is able to receive the CS Paging in the DL PACCH. the only thing that matters is that the CS paging is forwarded on to the PACCH of this TBF. This MS does not even have to be DTM-capable to receiv e the CS Paging. Well, that's what you said below, but you said there is an exce ption for pure "UL TBF". Don't know why. Safar, 1) Yes Gs interface will benefit for all MS. But that is just ONE way to coordin ate the Pagings. In B11, the BSC can do the coordination even without the Gs int erface. 2) Yes, the paging is "lost": The MS does not answer it. 3) I don't know what kind of applications would send a PS Paging. Perhaps some k ind of "slow" and "bursty" applications (reception of emails? blackberry stuff?) ================================================================================ ================================================================================ ======= "One exception is when the MS is involved in a pure UL Transfer. Then DTM needs to be enabled in the cell to ensure that CS page is sent on the PACCH." This statement is for non DTM Capable MS. Because during UL Transfer, no informa tion is sent from SGSN in DL UNITDATA. In this case, even if IMSI coordination i s active, we need to enable DTM on that particular cell where the non DTM capabl e MS is located. Br, Bijoy ================================================================================ ================================================================================ ======= Bijoy, ok perhaps it's a vendor specific trick. Or well, perhaps you fear that a MS in pure UL TBF is not going to communicate its IMSI to the PCU. for that pur pose (in ALU), there is a way to force this sharing of IMSI, even if the MS is i npure UL TBF (it is called RA CAPABILITY UPDATE). I believe it is a 3GPP feature , because it occurs between PCU and SGSN, on a standardized interface. Anyway, a pure UL TBF is rare (imposibly rare) ================================================================================ ================================================================================ == ===== Pix, i have never said that IMSI Co-ordination will not happen during UL Transfe r. I have only said that to achieve this we have to enable DTM in the cell where the non DTM capable MS is situated so that it may receive the CS paging during GMM mode. Hope, now everything is clear. ================================================================================ ================================================================================ === Bijoy, yes, but you didnt explain why. Why do you need to enable the DTM Feature in order to be able to receive a paging.

================================================================================ ================================================================================ = Pix, let me find this out whether it is vendor specific or not and what is 3GPPs say on this. ================================================================================ ================================================================================ =====Hi Pix, i want to understand main CS paging and all its related parameters. i mean for CS paging from MSC to BSC, BSC to BTS, BTS to MS. ================================================================================ ================================================================================ ==== Why should we have the common ID procedure implemented on MSC to ensure DTM ? ================================================================================ == Common ID is used in DTM so that MSF is aware of which DTM MS is in CS-dedicated Mode. ================================================================================ == Dear Pix/Bijoy "DTM and IMSI coordination also has the benefit that non DTM capable MS can be r eached by a CS page when in packet transfer mode regardless of network operation mode (regardless of whether the Gs interface is used or not)". However, i was going through a DTM (B-10) document and its clearly mentioned her e that Alcatel BSS ensures CS Paging Coordination only in NMO 1 (Gs interface is present). The b/m are the exact wordings: "It is proposed that the BSS ensures the CS Paging Coordination only in NMO I when the Gs interface is present. this choice is explained by the following justifications: - in release B9, in NMO II and III, the paging coordination is not ensured for C S paging messages received while the MS is in packet transfer mode. it is not re quired that the DTM feature improves the paging management here. -According to the information received from P&S, it is likely that most of the o perators will use the Gs interface in the coming years. -IF the paging coordination were required in NMO II and III, upon receipt of eac h CS paging the BSC will have to check whether the MS is in packet transfer mode . the BSC will then have to maintain a list of MSs in PTM, which will increase B SCGP load (due to exchange of the identity of the MS in the PTM at the begining of the PTM and at the end of the PTM). As the BSS does not support CS paging coordination, the flag BSS_PAGING_COORDINA TION included in the GPRS CEll Options IE of SI13, PSI1, PSI13 and PSI14 shall b e set to 0. the cell does not support CS paging coordination." so, from the above mentioned, I come to the conclusion that without Gs interface , there cannot be Cs Paging in Alcatel BSS. ================================================================================ ========= Bijoy's statement probably refers to BSS paging coordination, not paging coordin

ation with Gs interface.in Alu B10, the only way to do the paging coordination t o use the Gs interface. in this case, a MS in PTM is able to receive the CS pagi ng on its DL PACCH (whether the MS is DTM capable or not). in ALU B11, the BSS P aging Coordination is available (therefore no Gs interface is needed) -=============================================================================== ========== Peter For information we have tried DTM in B10 without Gs and it's not working (2 succ ess over 10 attempts) and ALU confirm that there is a software problem @ BSC lev el that will be resolved in B11. for paging coordination we are waiting. :) ========================================= Thanx Pix. @ Peter: Thanx for sharing ur results aswell.But when u say that DTM is not work ing, are you only talking about the Mobile Terminating Calls(Ps paging) or DTM a s a whole feature not working.Because as far as I know, there should be no probl em with Mobile Originating Calls and DTM should work fine with MOC only(even wit hout Gs). ========================================= i'am talking as a whole feature , even with MOC, otherwise, there was communicat ion problems between BSC and MFS (DTM messages were not send with each DTM reque st) and it's internal SW problem. ========================================= Dear All, I have been investigating CS paging during packet transfer mode and I need some guidance from u pls. I am using TEMS to compare this behavior among several operators. There is this operator which can successfully receive CS paging during PTM. I checked System I nformation Type 13 messages and found that it is using NMO 2 while the bss pagin g coordination feature is not enabled (The cell does not support CS paging coordination). Any ideas about this case ? =========================================== Can the operator use NMO 1 and transmit different system information messages (c ontaining NMO 2 for example) ? or can it be using paging coordination and transmit that the cell does not suppo rt this feature ? Please advise ========================================== Hi mxa, if u have enabled dtm then cs ps paging cordination is possible only with class b mobile all will not support this and i think in highr class mobile like black berry ans like this will support this because we have tested this dtm feature bu t it works only with blackberry ========================================== Hi suresh, In SI13:

======= - NMO = 2 - DTM is not enabled - The cell does not support CS paging coordination. Also, the CS paging happens on the data channel. However, when the mobile is in PTM and a voice call interrupts it, the packet se ssion is suspended. Voice call continues and when it ends, the packet session is resumed. I can't find an explanation for that except there are some wrong parameters sent in SI13, is that possible ? I mean that Gs interface could exist but NMO 1 is broadcasted wrongfully. OR pag ing coordination is enabled but broadcasted wrongfully. P.S. the BSS is Ericsson ============================================ Hi Experts, I want to test DTM in my network. we r using BSC Paging coordination (NMO2) & not Gs interface.i have activated DT M licence in a BSC and enabled DTM feature in BTS. any MSC feature also needs to be changed or not? what else i need to do to test DTM feature. Also will there be any problem in MTC if DTM is enabled on a site?? plz help ================================== hi Ds, I think you should contact your local ALU support. There were some changes about DTM policy in B10... I cannot give more details here. Best regards, ============================= thanx Pix for ur reply.. just to add i m working on Nokia system. i wanted to know 1)what things i need to ensure before DTM testing on all interfaces 2)is there some feature on MSC that is required to set for DTM enable (general i nfomation) 3)With BSC paging coordination (NMO2)& Gs disabled, is there any issue in MTC if we enable DTM in network. ================================= yes, saying that you are on nokia system is a good info :)) in NMO2 and with BSC paging coordination, the MSC does not need any change. In case of MTC while the MS is in Packet Transfer Mode (PTM), the BSC will send the CS-paging on the (PS) PACCH. Without paging coordination, the CS paging would be left unanswered. With paging coordination, the paging is sent on PACCH and will be answered: - if MS is DTM capable & DTM is enabled in your network : MS starts the DTM proc edure, in order to do both PS and CS calls.

- if MS is not DTM-capable or if DTM is not enabled in your nw, then MS will sus pend the PS transfer, set up the CS call. At the end of the CS call, the PS tran sfer will (should... might... possibly... hopefully....) be resumed. Regards pix ================================== Thanx Pix.. i have conducted DTM trial in a BSC with paging coordination enabled. but DTM dint work.. i m not getting what could be the reason for testing failure. does anyone has implementation document for DTM so that i can check wat could be the error form our side. also do we need to do any kind of configuration changes in DTM capable handset f or testing. ============================== ds, i'll let the NSN experts answer you... since you bought the feature DTM, shouldn't NSN give you all necessary info to a ctivate it ? I'm surprised they are not providing any support on this. ============================= Already read 4 pages of this thread. Thanks to Pix and Bijoy 's inform. Btw, in my oper has a problem: Currently using DTM (on BSc Ericsson) and when PS handover performed (moving..), the MS is attached to SGSN and MSC with differen t cell, and MS cannot make a PS call :(. (b/c i know DTM is well done only when MS is served in the same ARFCN). Could u pls explain it? Thanks so much.

hi hpda, thanks for reading all of it. i'm not familiar with PS Handover. Is it the same as "PS Reselection" ? When MS does a PS HO, then the SGSN should synchronize with the MSC/VLR. How does your SGSN sync's with the MSC ? Through Gs interface ? I'm afraid you'll have to check how it is configured, and perhaps run traces. Ch eck how the cell update/RA update/LA update is sent from SGSN to MSC, and vice v ersa. Regards pix

Hi all, I'm trying to validate CS/PS paging coordination. I've been trying to find some E/// BSS counters for Gprs suspended session due to CS page (when DTM activated on BSC and cell level), but no success. Any suggestion someone? Maybe I've misse d something in my search, does anybody is familiar with this? Should I keep on s earching? Or there is no such thing? Thanks.