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Janis Adriaan Pouwelse, Ph.D. July 2, 2009

Page 118 Page 120

1 work in econometrics at either the masters or 1 in terms of who you did this with and when.
2 graduate level -- masters or doctoral level? 2 A. This was, as we discussed earlier --
3 A. Econometrics, no. 3 let me refer to my CV. So this was the ongoing
4 Q. Have you taken any course work 4 work with Harvard Business School. So this was
5 in microeconomics at the either masters or 5 from June 2006 onwards with Professor Felix
6 doctorate level? 6 Oberholzer-Gee and his friends.
7 A. No. 7 Q. And I will -- I'll provide the
8 Q. Have you taken any course work 8 court reporter with those names later, but --
9 in industrial organization at the doctorate 9 so that instance, that's the one-on-one training
10 or masters level? 10 that you've had, was in connection with the
11 A. No, I have not. 11 2006 -- June to August 2006 work, research
12 Q. So you've never done any type 12 you did at the Harvard Business School?
13 of dissertation in economics, I take it? 13 A. Yes, that was the full-time
14 A. No dissertation work, but -- and 14 work on that, and that continued onwards
15 also we were discussing the collaboration with 15 as nonfull-time -- nonfull-time research.
16 the Harvard Business School, so working one on 16 Q. So after August 2006 you
17 one directly with economics professors or other 17 continued but on a nonfull-time basis?
18 Internet entrepreneurs, seeing how the business 18 A. That is correct.
19 models are evolving. 19 Q. Any other one-on-one experience
20 Q. Okay. And so let's talk about that. 20 you've had with economists similar to that?
21 You mentioned one-on-one training. Could you 21 A. Yes. So that is also the Harvard
22 describe that for me. 22 econ computer science people and -- yeah,
23 A. That would be analyzing data sets 23 and other less intense contacts with various
24 and seeing if there's -- what the impact is, 24 economists.
25 So the methodology of how you can establish 25 Q. Okay. Tell me about the Harvard

Page 119 Page 121

1 links between -- or infer links between audio 1 econ computer science contact.
2 CD sales and download statistics. 2 A. That's Professor David Parks.
3 Q. Okay. And that work, the work and 3 He's one of the experts in self-organizing
4 the analysis in those instances was done by the 4 markets and mechanism design.
5 economists, right? 5 Q. And is that research listed in your
6 A. That is correct. So we both 6 CV?
7 branched into each other's fields to make sure 7 A. That is listed under research and
8 that the gap in the middle was scientifically 8 professional experience. That is the June 2007,
9 sound. 9 August 2007 item.
10 Q. Correct. And so you provided 10 Q. Okay. And again, your role there
11 the technical aspects, and they provided 11 was to provide the technology, and his role was
12 the economic aspects of the research? 12 to provide the economics and collaborating in
13 A. Yeah, but -- yes, indeed. 13 order to prepare a report, is that right, or
14 Q. And that was in connection with 14 to do the research at least?
15 what specifically? 15 A. Yeah, but in this case our
16 A. It was both the audio markets, 16 expertises are overlapping, so we really
17 and we tried to also do the video markets. 17 do -- because this is self-organizing markets
18 MR. REYNOLDS: You guys, I can hear 18 and that is closely related to my work.
19 you. Isaac, you're not on mute. I can hear 19 Q. In other words, the economic work
20 you. 20 is closely related to your work?
21 MR. MEISTER: I'm sorry. Excuse me. 21 A. The economics work in the area of
22 MR. REYNOLDS: That's okay. 22 self-organizing markets is fully overlapping
23 Q. (BY MR. REYNOLDS) Dr. Pouwelse, you 23 with my -- with my peer-to-peer research.
24 said you did this in connection with an audio 24 Q. Okay. Could you explain that to
25 and a video study. Could you be more specific 25 me.

31 (Pages 118 to 121)

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Janis Adriaan Pouwelse, Ph.D. July 2, 2009

Page 126 Page 128

1 Q. Those are what you view as the 1 I thought it was -- Mr. Pouwelse, you can look
2 important ones? 2 through that. I don't know whether you've seen
3 A. That is correct. 3 it.
4 Q. Okay. So you've chosen two. 4 It's got the URL -- well, actually,
5 There are many more papers, right? 5 it doesn't have the URL on it, but it says at
6 A. Yes. 6 the top, "The Effect of File Sharing on Record
7 Q. And you've chosen two of them? 7 Sales, An Empirical Analysis."
8 A. Yes. They range from a master 8 MR. VAN DER LAAN: Did you send it
9 student who did that for a few months, which 9 to me yesterday?
10 is not worth mentioning, for instance. 10 MR. REYNOLDS: I'm pretty sure
11 Q. Okay. And the two that you've 11 I sent it to you yesterday or the day before.
12 mentioned are -- one is the Oberholzer-Gee 12 I could send it to Dr. Pouwelse right now if
13 study, and the one that you cited is -- it's 13 you don't have it.
14 listed as Footnote 4 in your report, which is 14 MR. VAN DER LAAN: Yeah, I have it.
15 a March 2004 study? 15 MR. REYNOLDS: And then I sent you
16 A. Yes. That actually is the same 16 another one yesterday that is -- I labeled it,
17 person we discussed at the Harvard Business 17 I think, Dutch report. It's about 100-some-odd
18 School, who did -- so this is the audio study 18 pages.
19 from Harvard Business School. 19 A. So we found "The Effect of File
20 Q. Okay. And that's one of the studies 20 Sharing on Record Sales, An Empirical Analysis,"
21 that you rely on to make your statement that 21 the March 2005 -- 2004 study.
22 the economic impacts of file sharing are poorly 22 Q. (BY MR. REYNOLDS) Correct.
23 understood? 23 A. And the other one?
24 A. That is correct. 24 Q. And the other one, it says,
25 Q. And then you also rely on a 2009 25 "TNO Information and Communication Technology."

Page 127 Page 129

1 Dutch Ministries of Education study, right? 1 A. I have both reports now in front of
2 A. Yes, that is correct. 2 me.
3 Q. And that's cited as Footnote 5 in 3 Q. Okay. Give me one second.
4 your report? 4 (Plaintiffs' Deposition Exhibits 8
5 A. Yes. 5 and 9 were marked.)
6 Q. And those are the only two studies 6 Q. (BY MR. REYNOLDS) So let's take
7 you cite, right? 7 them one at a time, Dr. Pouwelse. The first
8 A. Yes. These are the more in-depth 8 one you have in front of you, it says at the
9 and reliable studies. 9 top, "The Effect of File Sharing on Record
10 Q. And that's based on what, when you 10 Sales, An Empirical Analysis," and it's dated
11 say more in-depth and reliable? 11 March 2004?
12 A. My reading of these studies and my 12 A. Yes, I have that one.
13 judgment of the scientific quality of other 13 Q. And it's marked as Exhibit 8.
14 studies. 14 A. I have marked it as 8.
15 Q. So based on your reading of these 15 Q. Okay. And this is what you cite
16 studies and your judgment of the scientific 16 in Footnote 4 of your report, correct?
17 quality of the other studies, you believe 17 A. I believe that is correct.
18 these two to be the most authoritative? 18 Q. And the next document is -- it says
19 A. Yes. 19 at the top, "TNO Information and Communication
20 MR. REYNOLDS: Could you pull up, 20 Technology"?
21 Mr. Van der Laan -- I believe I've got the 21 A. That is correct.
22 March 2004 effect of file sharing and -- 22 Q. Could you mark that as 9, please.
23 MR. VAN DER LAAN: The name of the 23 A. As 9, yes.
24 file? 24 Q. And now this Exhibit 9 is what you
25 MR. REYNOLDS: It might just be OG. 25 reference in Footnote 5 of your report, correct?

33 (Pages 126 to 129)

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