An Interview with J Mase III Heidi: Welcome to We Want the Airwaves.

My name is Heidi Andrea Restrepo Rhodes, and Im a contributing correspondent currently based on the East Coast in Brooklyn. And the poem youre about to hear is titled Josephine, written and performed by J Mase III, a black queer trans poet educator and activist. Hes the creator of the National Performance event, Cupid Aint Shit, and anti-Valentines Day poetry movement. He teaches workshops in various youth facilities, universities, and community organizations and also does educational outreach within communities of faith, with people of all ages. J Mase joined me for this interview and Im so happy to finally have met him in person and talk face-to-face. When I first saw his video performance of Josephine, I was so moved by his critical retelling of the commonly told story from the holy texts of the Bible, of the Torah and the Quran. Im humbled and impressed by the personal and political approach J Mase takes to his work facilitating compassion, understanding, and alliance-building within communities of faith. In todays interview, we talk about Christianity, queer and trans liberation theology, and the power of love, art, and storytelling. Id like to dedicate this podcast in the words of J Mases poem, Josephine, to every queer kid told they are unholy, and to everybody listening I hope you find yourself moved. [musical interlude] Josephine She asks if she can talk to me about Jesus at 3 a.m. on the C train because something about my queer face means clearly I'm on a path straight to Hell I've come to expect this type of reaction from strangers at least once a week since the first time I was exorcised at 16 But today I've grown tired and I've decided it is my turn to proselytize So before you do any of that I want to know from you Have you heard the good word about Joseph of Genesis? See Joseph Josephine Jo of Genesis favorite child of Jacob Aka Israel

when asked what you wanted you desired one thing: a kethoneth passim Pastor called this a royal coat And Jo I had never read the Bible before found you and kept reading Josephine I got to 2nd Samuel and realized your coat of many colors was a princess dress Joseph your father must have really loved you Because he got it for you and you wore it with pride Jo when your brothers saw you in your flowing dress in your glory they became enraged I am sorry for the beating you received Sorry they destroyed your dress and smeared it with the red paint of your swollen veins Josephine did you know they told your father you were dead so he'd never come looking for you Never knew your brothers sold you as a slave into Egypt and once you were stolen from your home fields the earth dried up Jo the very ground on which you walked mourned the loss of its genderqueer child and all the plants died and the animals no longer had the will to live Josephine your family nearly starved Saw the formation of ribs where once grew flesh and belly fat And they hungry and desperate traveled into Egypt And what must they have seen, Jo?

See, in Egypt people discovered you not as f*g not as tr*nny They saw you in totality You went from slave to leader over lands there you were Josephine You looked magnificent As you Your family couldn't even recognize you through the glare of divinity But you saw them shivering in fear waiting to hear what this regal leader might say Wondering if your spirit might see fit to grant them the grain needed to survive and Joseph love broke through the darkness of resentment And for the first time your family saw you as you as Magnificent for it was your word that saved them from starvation Dear Joseph of Genesis aka Josephine aka Jo I am claiming your story for every queer kid told they are unholy for every queer told in order to love we must let our faith die I am going to put it in a pocket over my heart next to Ruth & Naomi next to David & Jonathan next to Hegai & Deborah and seat them at the last Passover with Jesus and Lazarus Yes I am taking Jesus with me too Dear pastor To you who claim your words are from God but whose book is pledged to King James know what allegiances you keep You've been lying about my people for too long

[musical interlude] Heidi: One of my favorite lines in that poem is, pointing to how its written for any queer kid thats ever been told that theyre unholy, and that really resonates in terms of my own experience from the young version of me that couldve really used being told that at a certain point, when I was facing the Church and its homophobias, so can you speak to what inspired the piece overall and to what that particular aspect of it means to you? J: Sure. So I think So thats a very long story so Im gonna ramble a little bit; I apologize in advance. Firstly, Ill start with myself. I came out when I was fifteen. I was the first person in my family to do so. I knew I was queer probably by the time I was eleven. So at eleven I was sort of in this sort of rural town. I didnt know what the word gay was, but I knew I was going to hell for it. [laughter] I remember coming home every day and locking myself in my room and praying for God to take this thing out of me. Heidi: Mhm. J: In my family so I told you individually earlier that my dad was Nation of Islam, my mothers family was all Christian. On my mothers side, about three of her siblings were pastors or preachers. Theres this idea of affirming churches, ones that are supportive of lesbian, gay, bi, trans, queer people. Heidi: Yeah. J: These people were NOT from affirming churches. [laughter] Heidi: [laughter] J: In the poem I talk about being exorcised for the first time and Ive had that experience on multiple occasions. Yay, yay for me. Heidi: Literally? J: Literally. Heidi: Can we go back to that later? JM: [laughter] Yeah, we definitely can! Heidi: [laughter] J: But so, for me, I learned at a very early age that even if I didnt have a place or word for this language, that anything outside of what heterosexuality was, or what

cisgenderness was, was immediately wrong and somehow distancing yourself from God. Or at least I learned that from my Christian side of my family. As I got older, I think, for me and sort of thinking about this piece, when I did finally come out, the way my father practiced Islam was in a sense of like there was this sort of concept that for you to have a real relationship with God, it is a concept practiced. It is not a passive thing. Its not like Oh, you read the Quran so now youre Muslim! [laughter] No, no. You read the Quran, you read the Bible, you read the Torah. You read whatever religious text you can get your hands on. You create a discernment with God on your own terms in such a way that you have studied, but that youre always constantly in a state of studying your faith in order to make sure that you have this connection with God. So Him, when I came out as gay, was actually really easy. There wasnt like this, Oh, youre going to hell whatever else have you. I found that the way my mother and her family practiced Christianity was this very passive way of like, Well someone told me that this is wrong, so even though I cant find scripture in the Bible, I know that youre going to hell for doing this. I know theres something wrong with you. And so that I where I came into a lot of hits from around my identity and my faith that being an eleven year-old and try to pray this gay out of me, it wasnt just so much being gay but also I wanted to have a relationship with God. So now people are telling me that I cant have a relationship with God and even though thats the one thing thats inspired me [laughter] to do this, or to get out of bed every day. So when I did come out, I also found myself sort of throwing away those faiths, those religions, those traditions because I was told that I couldnt. So I didnt. And I think that was something that I definitely missed. Not every queer person I think needs the faith background, needs a particularly monotheistic faith background [laughter], but particularly someone that connection to church, to mosque, whatever is what physically inspires you to be alive, so when thats taken from you, it takes all of your sense of self, it takes all of your sense of not rightness, because I think you always have that philosophy but your sense of balance. What am I existing for? What am I doing this for? Heidi: You lose community, too, right? J: Yeah! Sometimes I know you said you grew up Catholic and I dont know how you felt about the Catholic Church when you left that, but Baptist Church is fun! [laughter] And there was dancing! And there was music! And sometimes there were tambourines! [laughter] So why wouldnt you want to be part of that? So even when I think about the way I perform, the way I speak a lot of that is what I learned from church, I cant separate that part of who I am. Im a human being, the way I present to the world is definitely raised on church and religion has a huge part in how I think about my racial identity so as a black person in America, think about how Nation of Islam shaped the civil rights movement, to think about how churches shaped the civil

rights movements, to how when I was living in a rural town where my queerness wasnt the first thing to question my race was! Like, this was a place where people found solace, right? Heidi: Mhm. Yeah. J: It was also a place where I came to during the week where there was a whole group of black folks around me to talk to about and all these other things. So that was me as an individual and I want to talk about that a little bit more in a second. But then when I finished college, I stumbled into social services. I worked for a LGBTQ youth organization called the Attic Youth Center in Philly, which is still one of my favorite places in the world, so shout out to them! [laughter] But I worked there for six years and so one of the things that I found - I was working in the education outreach department and my job was to work with young people and to work with all these different service providers on being more LGBTQ-inclusive. So Im working at K-12 schools with students and staff, Im working at faith communities so at churches, synagogues, whatever, Im working at medical offices and legal offices and whatever and working with these people on specific needs around how to be more queer-inclusive. And the biggest thing I got into a problem with people with, was not about whether or not they could physically handle doing the tasks I was asking them, its about whether they felt like they were sending little Johnny to hell by doing this. And so the question I ended up starting off with are like, letting people talk to me first was, Is this against my religion? [laughter] That was the first question I ended up starting all my workshops off with, and telling people theres always great religious resources out there, because I found that that was the number one issue that they had. A parent was not kicking their kid out on the street, because they didnt know how to be a parent, they were kicking their kid out on the street because they felt that would take the devil out of them, whatever was causing them to be queer. Heidi: Right J: And that by not addressing that religious piece, I was not able to be there with that parent who is. Its also how we look at the manifestation of that, was trying to come from a loving place. Not every single I cant say that for every single body but for many young people and their parents that I was dealing with, were coming from loving places, or trying to. Heidi: Thats really relevant. As far as my understanding goes the vast majority of homeless youth in this country are queer youth, many of which have been kicked out of their homes by their families. J: Yeah. And I think that for a lot of us as queer folks, me as that eleven year-old kid and got hurt, and at fifteen sixteen I felt hurt, we turn away from religion. We turn away from faith. We see it only as this toxic thing that is only going to harm more people so I dont want to bring people to that.

Heidi: Right. J: So you, your mom kicked you out for this, well just get rid of it! You dont need that, you dont need that religion piece. So that is the idea that one: theres no such thing as reconciliation for these families, which, you know again, when youre talking about families which actually generally do love their child, there can be. [laughter] We have to be willing to talk to people in a way where theyre at, in a way thats helpful for them and their kid, and be able to talk to their kid, because some of those kids dont believe in religion, some of them do! Some of those kids innately feel connected and its so much a part of their identity. When were talking about resiliency, were talking about kids that are at a place where they dont feel they are valued. How many kids if you felt like God is this person that created all things in the world, created all this stuff and hated you, right [laughter], are you going to be worried about using a condom? Youre going to hell for like, a millennia! Heidi: Right. J: So why are you worried about a condom, why are you worried about not taking drugs? Youre instantly evil and sinful, so of course that falls into resiliency stuff. So thats where I see that religious, that particular line, falling into place for me, in that way, that for every young person that has been told this lie, that youre not a holy person, that youre not in some ways able to be connected to a higher power, and thats your desire, then of course you cant be. Like, its not about someone elses interpretation. Heidi: Are most of these communities, communities of color, that youre working with? J: No. Its all kinds of different communities that I work with. Heidi: Okay. J: So lots of white communities. Theres a lot of people in the world that religion impacts out political climate, our cultural climate, what happens in our houses, like I think its just such an important space to be in. Heidi: Yeah. J: So for myself, Ill say its that recognition of religion-having as very toxic, particularly Christianity as very toxic, and Islam has a huge history of colonization as well. But at the same time, seeing the types of liberation and rights and I dont whereas for me, my own personal life, Ive seen that while the actual sense of faith can be very liberating, its the practice of those things, that is where people kind of hurt each other. Heidi: Right

J: In the same way, that we do all kinds of things through the systems. We always want to believe that everyone is always helped through the education system, depends on where you live and who youre talking to Heidi: [laughter] Yeah. J: We want to believe that the justice system works for everyone we dont want to go there, right? [laughter] J: For me I would ask people in the same way that, if youre going to say that, what other systems have you participated in that have some histories that might not be so pleasant but you still participate in them because you see the value in that. And particularly I think its so much harder for whole groups of people of color to distance themselves from their religious traditions in ways I dont see for many white folks. I think for me the closest groups of primarily white religions, because I know not every person is white or that these traditions are white, but I think about Mormons. When youre Mormon, for many people, youre Mormon for life. Even if youve been taken out of the Mormon church, kicked out or something like that, its so ingrained in your fiber, your being. Ive seen so many of my colleagues struggle or not be able to be a part of that, and thats what its like. Its part of your cultural practice, its part of the way that you eat, you sleep. Heidi: Right. J: Going back to my fathers Nation of Islam, it was the language he used every day, it was the way he thought about Blackness, it was the way he thought about interacting with his neighbors and his family, and what he wore every day. He couldnt take that out. I dont have faith meant, I dont exist. So when you say that to queer communities of color, to separate yourself from your religious community, youre saying, Dont be brown anymore. [laughter] J: Exactly. Dont dance, dont have music, dont hug people [laughter] Its all those things. Heidi: Yeah. I find it really exciting that it was your father coming from his own practices in Islam that was encouraging your sort of exegesis of text. I dont remember if you were saying that, before we started recording. [laughter] J: I dont remember that! So people at home [laughter]

Heidi: So this poem Josephine, also is very much feels like that practice. Im wondering if you could speak to that. J: Yeah. Heidi: What you inherited from him, and how that led to the writing of this poem. J: So Ill link it to two things. For me its this huge distancing for myself from faith, particularly from monotheistic faith for a period of time, and to even get into a space of wanting to talk, even though my fathers interpretations of his Islam where so open, he also wasnt around all the time. Heidi: Mhm. J: It was great, it was helpful spiritually in some sense, but he was gone for long periods of time, so its like Okay, well, what else what do I do now? [laughter] So I kind of threw all those things away. Going back to working in social services, I got into a habit of wanting to talk about faith in this kind of way because I saw it was important. I saw myself stuck in defensive theology, and for folks who are unfamiliar with defensive theology, its the idea of these clobber passages. So theres six to seven scriptures within Biblical text, and even less in the Quran, that people use, or try to use against LGBTQ people. And so most people spend time refuting those texts, and saying, Whats something I can use, like Leviticus! You know, Leviticus is not saying man shall not lie with another man etc. what its really saying is that its a rule for rabbis! And holy people! We dont need to be concerned with that. We should be looking at the New Testament! blah blah blah. That was sort of the conversations I ended up having. What blew my mind was about five or six years ago, I saw a play called Transfigurations, which looks specifically at trans people in the Bible, by this person, Peterson Toscano. When I saw that, I about fell out of my chair. I was like, Holy crap you know, literally. Heidi: [laughter] J: There are queer people in the Bible, like what are you talking about here? All this time Ive been so busy trying to defend certain scriptures that I didnt look for any affirming ones, so I think thats what brought me back in some kind of way, in a really meaningful way. Heidi: Yeah. J: Because I felt compelled to talk about faith all the time, I didnt necessarily feel as connected as I once did, and thats what kind of placed me back in there. Lots of

affirming things, and its okay to talk about it from that vantage point. From there, I started researching all kinds of things. So the actual interpretation of the captain of Passim, actually comes from one of Petersons works, and that just became my favorite story, looking at Joseph, and the people I mentioned at the end of the poem, like Ruth and Naomi. So Ruth and Naomis story is one of the most amazing, to me. If you look at Ruth 1:1617 (Chapter One, Verse Sixteen through Seventeen) so Naomi is Ruths mother-in-law. At some point, their husbands are dead, Ruth really didnt have a place to go, so she says to Naomi, Wherever you go, Ill go. Your people will be my people. When you die, Ill be buried there. I was saying it sounds a lot like marriage! [laughter] Heidi: Yeah. J: And when you think about it, it sounds a lot like a marriage! It sounds a lot like wedding vows. Its a really beautiful bit of text, and I think a lot of people use that in their wedding vows. Its just a beautiful piece of writing, and they use this word, of Ruth clinging to Naomi. Well, if you look earlier in Genesis, about Adam and Eve, and you look at men clinging to their wives, no matter what interpretation of text youre looking at, it uses the same word for men clinging to their wives as Ruth clinging to Naomi. Well, what is that? What does it mean? Some of the relationship-y parts, its harder for us to say definitively if people are in a relationship or not, but just the idea that no one said they could have potentially been in a same-sex relationship, or even David and Jonathan, that clearly had a covenant, it says in the Bible that they had a covenant together. David loved Jonathan more than he loved women. So its not like a, Oh I think maybe but Clearly, this is a little queer. Heidi: I feel like even the point isnt to say these people were fucking each other, but J: Right right. Heidi: [laughter] But we can hope that that also happened. [laughter] Heidi: But the point I feel like is that there is a queering of love, theres a queering of the covenant, theres a queering of what is otherwise imagined as a heterosexual, or heteronormative, form of relationship. J: Right. Mhm. And I think especially around trans identitities, trans people are all over the text. Like, thats, out of all the questions I whether or not trans people are alike, you know, um, tell me if Im talking too much about scripture, I just get excited. Heidi: No, definitely. I think its fascinating.

J: [laughter] So looking at Matthew 19:12, Jesus has three definitions that he gives us for eunuchs. Two-thirds of those definitions are pretty gay, pretty queer in some ways. Heidi: [laughter] J: So were talking about people that might identify as gay men, were talking about some people that might be intersex, we might talk about people that are trans, but either way these are very non-heteronormative cis identities. So in relation to Joseph, whos not described as a eunuch, but talking about all these other people that are described as eunuchs within the text, so that can become kind of tricky depending on like... But again, just the idea of these potentially very clearly trans people. When youre looking at Acts 8:28, the first Gentile convert into Christianity is a eunuch. So eunuchs, being people dig up these scriptures in Deuteronomy that men should not wear womens clothing, women should not be wearing clothing of men, all these things that existed in those scriptures of Deuteronomy, and yet you have this gender nonconforming, neither male nor female, entity being the first person, Gentile, thats welcomed into Christianity, so thats a huge role to be given to someone. Looking at another one that I know Peterson has talked about before is looking at the Water-bearer before the last Passover. So Jesus says to his disciples, Go out and find the man carrying a jug of water and that will be where we have our last Passover. Well then, what man was carrying a jug of water? There werent any. So youre talking about someone carrying a purse, youre talking about a gu y walking outside carrying a purse, right, so thats a very gender non-conforming act thats happening there, and again this person is given such a huge role and a task in the story. Even if we dont give this person a name, even if we dont really talk about it like that, thats a huge Heidi: Theres evidence of transgression happening. J: Yeah. Some beautiful transgression. Heidi: Yeah. How are communities that youre working with responding to you presenting this information and suggestions that are inherent to them? J: [laughter] What I work on is a few different things. I still do use a lot of defensive theology. Thats what people are most concerned with in some different spaces, and depending on where people are at, we can get to the more affirming things. What about this? What about this? A colleague from this organization I used to work for, Soul Force, also another beautiful organization. No one looks at the creation story and says, Clearly says God created night and day. Theres no mention of dawn or dusk. But we dont protest every time the sun sets! [laughter] We accept that theres these beautiful gray periods without it being described there. So I think for me, even some things that are more general in that way, of

affirmation, those are some helpful texts to use. Some people are really open to it, some people want to maybe attack you after the show. I think its always a conversation. Im always up for a dialogue with people. And what I tell people is that brilliant, amazing, smart, God-fearing people disagree about what the Bible says and what it means. Thats why we have like a hundred different denominations. If we didnt disagree, wed all by following the same things at the same time every day of the week. But we dont, so because what we believe can have such an impact on so many different types of people, we should really be thinking responsibly about how we do that and why we believe what we believe and so thats really what I want to get people to talk about. When you talk about that again, when I talk to someone, Im assuming theyre coming out of a place of love, and I express to them how Im coming out of a place of love, I think that blessed out a better conversation than say I just think youre automatically wrong or I think youre horrible for believing that. Theyre perfectly in their right to believe that. Heidi: Yeah, that gives it more possibility of actually getting somewhere, too. J: Yeah. Heidi: Is there a category of theology that you would name as alternative to defensive theology? J: So I keep talking I have a little theology crush on Peterson, so [laughter] J: But Peterson already knows this! Heidi: Is he actually a theologian, or? J: Theologian, actor, queer activist, just does a lot. Was in ex-gay movements for about eighteen years, before realizing, Oh wait, I am just fully gay! He calls it progressive theology, and so Ill just stick with that. Also theres just a whole bunch of queer liberation theology in all kinds of different ways that people name it, so whether people name it queer liberation theology, progressive theology as Petersons named it, whatever, theres just so many different ways people are choosing to talk about the text now, which I think is kind of just amazing. Heidi: Yeah. J: I remember my grandmother, when I was younger, used to open up the Bible, point to a text, and that was the inspiration for the day. It didnt matter what the story was, or that text! [laughter] But that was how she was taught to find meaning in the Bible with each

individual text was important, versus other people, other denominations, making sure you have the whole context of the story what was going on at the time period? What was going on this? So I think theres a total difference between Bible literalists and folks that are talking about, How do you bring the Bible and what it means to the twenty first century? Like, looking at the United Church of Christ, the UCC that had this concept that God is still speaking. Those are different ways you could look at the Bible and talk about what that means. And I think we all need to have it, especially if its around our own community that were trying to talk to, or for our own spiritual development. It definitely speaks to our own denomination with specific Biblical understanding. Heidi: Yeah. Can we go back to your experience of exorcism? J: [laughter] Yeah. Heidi: Just briefly, Im curious. J: So, theres many different ways that exorcisms can exist. [laughter] Heidi: Can I just say real quick? J: Yeah. Heidi: Part of my fascination towards it, from maybe a more political and philosophical perspective, is thinking about the ways that heterosexist culture and cis-sexist culture operates to, in a sense, exorcise queers and transgender people of that sin, that alleged sin, or of some sort of essence, or some spirit, or bad demon that we are assumedly possessed by, within certain discourses. I think in that context, Im curious about your experience and about what resistance to that looked like. J: I didnt always resist, right? [laughter] J: So there was definitely times in my life when I thought I was sinful or whatever, and there were other times in my life where Ill talk about two primary times of my life. There were two primary times in my life. So one, was by a family member when I was younger, when I was still at this place of like struggling with coming out, and all that kind of stuff. And at the time I really wanted it to work. I woke up the next day and it hadnt! [laughter] So I had a lot of questions, I hadnt even come out yet, so still took me a few years to really come out, and I think that just made me kind of push problabaly more towards like, Wow, its toxic. Not even this can save me from evil, versus the first time I was ever invited to do a poetry

performance. I was nineteen, I got invited to do a show, it was the first time I was ever professionally asked to do something. Heidi: Mhm. J: I dont know why the folks that invited me didnt realize that I was a big old homo then? Heidi: [laughter] J: I dont know what it was they were missing? Maybe they just thought I was a tomboy, I dont know what they thought. But at some point it struck someone that I was gay. I never hid that. And by then, everyone was calling me Mason, still. I mean, what were you? Actually I shouldnt even say it like that, because you can have a boys name and all kind of things, Im making assumptions. Heidi: Yeah. J: [laughter] Heidi: People see what they want to see J: People see what they want to see. Heidi: - and dont see what they dont want to see. J: And one of the women there were two women organizing this poetry event and one of them called me up the night before the show and said, I want to hear everything youre performing over the phone, before tomorrow. It felt kind of weird, so I read her everything, and of course, some of my stuff is clearly about gayness, and she just gave me this speech about how every time youre on the stage, you minister to people. What you say can impact people. So she was saying it in a very derogatory way, but I took that to heart. Its true; every time you get on stage, you have three minutes. People are listening to everything youre saying. You have an opportunity to convince people about something they never thought about before. Heidi: Mhm. Theres a lot of power in that. J: Theres a lot of power in that! And so I went to the show. My father was there, some of the ones my father was there for, my first one, my brother Id just met my brother for the first time in life Heidi: Wow. J: Yeah. Other family members were there. My friends were there. I was really excited about the show.

Heidi: [laughter] J: So I get there and before they ask you on stage, this woman as this holy oil, that she tries to put on me, to try to draw the demon out. [laughter] But she also alerts me that my set has been cut from twenty minutes to ten minutes. She doesnt want to allow me to much time to share Heidi: To be powerful. [laughter] J: To be powerful and to minister to too many people. Theres children out there, I was told, so I cant really let them know that I exist. Those would be my top two [exorcism stories]. Heidi: Hm. J: Resistance for me in the second one was just that I realized I was powerful. It was my first time doing a show, what have you, I still got there, I did some really gay shit, excuse my language. Heidi: [laughter] J: But every time I go do a show now, Im like, Yeah, Im up here to say something really important if you never get to hear someone really, really excited to talk about trans issues in front of you, to talk about gayness in front of you, to talk about stuff, Im here to do that. After that, its like poetry and family are the two more important things in my life. While I certainly did not expect [laughter] having such an abrupt, quick transition into full-time poetry work, its been amazing. I definitely do not see myself going back to nine-to-five work for a little while. Heidi: [laughter] J: Maybe sometime later, but while Im still able to run around and do things and kind of be on the road for a couple weeks at a time, Im going to do it and take that risk, and a lot of quote-unquote learning how to market myself, so I think a lot of times artists we want to wait for other people to create opportunities for us, and were not really willing to build them ourselves. We think that someone will validate for us that art, just because its so good, is going to get attention automatically. Like no, it doesnt happen like that. We have to, at some point, for myself, I thought to myself, I like my stuff! People should come and pay me to do this stuff! So Im going to do a show! Whatever! Heidi: [laughter] J: I run a show that kind of helps solidify me as a professional artist in my own brain, was this show that I run called, Cupid Aint Shit which Im not sure I can say, but thats what its called. [laughter] So Ive been doing that now for about six years, and just

kind of taking that on the road and around the country, and just organizing that tour of poets spitting anti-Valentines Day love poetry really helped me to say, Yeah, theres a market for the stuff that I do. If I can make anti-Valentines Day into a political, funny event, then I can do anything! [laughter] J: So Im just challenging myself. Ive taken that and done other events like I do a lot of work on looking at masculinity and how do we challenge masculinity and aggressive misogyny and homophobia and bi- and transphobia, specifically with masculineidentified or misidentified peoples. Using that theme to also recruit straight cis male allies that maybe otherwise wouldnt come to this big old queer thing but want to talk about their own journey with masculinity, so now you have this whole audience. I think a lot also about making it as not just about my development as an artist, but to be able to get paid, how do I also influence positive movements within my audience? I dont want to go to an event and just have queer people, I dont want to go to an event and just have people of color. I dont want to go to an event and just have, I dont know, black trans men show up and just thats it! I want to look out into an audience and see all kinds of people engaging, and know that if it wasnt for this particular event, they would not have done that this week at all. That wouldnt have happened. Heidi: Right. J: So thats been making it for me. [laughter] Heidi: I think thats really powerful, too, given the kinds of insularity that can happen in various pockets of radical culture, and not-radical culture, and having people sit side by side despite very different lives is really important. J: I think for me what happened was thinking about that insular stuff that happens is that in order for me to create change, and to bring people into a space in which they have never been, and take them into a realm of thinking that has been not part of their everyday, I also have to accept that there are different ways of talking about social justice. I have to accept that someone might use words or language that is not my typical frame of reference, not my typical comfort zone, but there are going to be times I, too, am uncomfortable. I, too, have to shift the ways that I feel about what that work has to look like. So thats something that I think all radical activists need also get into the framework of thinking its not fair to just ask other people around us to be uncomfortable. We, too, if were comfortable in just being rowdy and radical all day, and we never sit and get squirmy, or never sit and get uncomfortable, then were not doing our jobs for ourselves. Heidi: Yeah. I agree. [laughter]

Heidi: I think thats really important. Im a big fan of the in Spanish theres a solidaridando is like the active ing form of solidarity that we dont have in English. J: Mhm. Heidi: But it pushes solidarity towards this thing that is doing and being done. Its a practice, right? But I think that that gets lost often in identitarian-based political culture: No, but Im an amazing ally because I call myself that! J: [laughter] I just think its not fair. I hear people that will really doubt someone coming from a perspective that maybe is straight cis white male okay, so we understand theres a power in that identity, does that mean that that entire person is now defunct or that person now never has any good ideas? Thats not acceptable either, right? How do we find a way that we all are using our privilege for good things in the world, and are also able to step into a world in which we understand that anyone who is expressing an idea that we see as quote-unquote as toxic, as whatever, could also be a victim of misinformation, which I learned from Mel White, whos the founder of Soul Force, like I have been the victim of misinformation, because I grew up in that same system. Heidi: Right. J: The system has just been privileging other people that maybe get to think that longer! [laughter] Heidi: Right. J: But I cant be angry at this person and then expect people to treat me with kindness when I fuck up. When I mess up or when Im not completely there on a certain issue and someone thinks I should be. Heidi: I also wanted to go back to something you said before about the necessity of marketing oneself as an artist, and I think that I think radical culture, and I also think communities of color, in various diverse experiences of class struggle, in terms of leftist politics, theres often this glorification of a downward mobility, or the demonization of an upward mobility? J: Right. Heidi: And I think its a big question for artists that are committed to radical politics where marketing oneself feels like selling out, or feels like capitulating to this capitalist system, that one is also constantly fighting against, so do you have, I guess, reflections on that, or advice for other artists coming up against that? J: So I grew up middle class, and so talking about that sort of like the downward mobility is like Im choosing at a place in my life where I could have a full-time nine-to-five job that pays me a good amount of money, and that does whatever. Im choosing to be at a

place where Im struggling a little bit harder than I typically would be in another position because also I think coming from a middle class background, Ive never had that fear around food, I dont have that fear around money, or if Ill have enough, or somethings going to happen. I recognize that as a privilege. [laughter] I have other colleagues and other friends, other family members that grew up in situations of one of my cousins grew up in a household I mean, all of them were my cousins, but grew up in a household where she was one of thirteen kids, right? She has very different plans around the ways that she spends money, or that shes looking for work, all that kind of stuff, and she definitely works in a more corporate space, and thats her right. I dont think that what I think about the upward mobility piece as an artist, someone asked me the other day, Would you ever do something for the Gap? Would you ever do something for this? Its like, it would be really self-righteous for me to say, No, I would never do that, I would never sell out! but like seriously, if I was ever in a situation where I knew that would be the difference between me eating and not eating, and that fear was such again, everyone has a right to feel safe, to feel comfortable, to feel whatever. Would I personally do that? Right now, my life? No, because I dont have to. I know where Im able to be in the world. But for my other colleagues, yeah, go for it, do it. Dont worry about marketing yourself to feel like youre at a certain place within the movement. Not all of us are in situations where that urgency is real. I see a lot of people coming from similar backgrounds as myself, and saying, Oh, well you shouldnt do this or You shouldnt do that. Its like, Yo, you have a right to stay alive. I dont think when I think about the stuff that my mother, my father, my other ancestors worked for in order for me to feel like I have this opportunity, to do these things, how much would they love to know that, one: I either had a full belly and all my bills were paid, in ways that not all of us had our bills paid, or still have our bills paid, or two: that I had the freedom of life to be able to get up on a plane and be able to travel someplace to do some work because I wanted to? So whatever way that dream is for you, do that. Because, especially people of color, so many people suffer Im getting to a place where, post-grief Mason, I cried over everything. I was watching a flash mob by Walmart employees today on the Internet [laughter] J: and they were stepping. And stepping typically does not get to me, but I was bawling. I was in my room bawling the hitting different octaves kind of crying, because I was just thinking, we, so many of us and the people that we love and care about, have to spend our time doing stuff that we dont like or we dont care about, because we physically dont have the resources to do anything different. And I say, again, whatever your dream is, if it is to be safe, fed, and taken care of, and those bigger corporate things appeal to you, [whispering] do it. Do it! Heidi: [laughter] J: Again, that iteration, just dont we all have to figure out what that path looks like. Theres no one way. Just like theres no one way to God.

[laughter] J: To bring it back to the faith stuff: Theres no one way. [laughter] Heidi: I think thats actually a really great connection because so much of, at least my beef with liberal political culture is, its moralism: this hypermoralistic approach that in a certain sense, really narrows the legitimate path to social justice, to well-being, to healing. And it just closes so many doors and shuts down possibilities for so many things that could otherwise be amazing and beautiful, or at least provides sustenance, or what have you. J: I think seeing marginalized communities being able to come home with some extra cash in their pockets in a way that systems dont typically allow? Thats revolutionary. Thats radical right there. [musical interlude]