202 P Request For Telephonic Conf Re Deposition Disputes

Case 1:07-cv-00026-OWW-TAG Document 202 Filed 08/21/2008 Page 1 of 4
(213) 992-3299
TELEPHONE
L A W O F F I C E O F ELEE@LOEL.COM
E-MAIL
E U G E N E L E E
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FACSIMILE LOS ANGELES, CALIFORNIA 90013-1010 WEBSITE
EUGENE D. LEE, ESQ. JOAN E. HERRINGTON, ESQ.
PRINCIPAL OF COUNSEL
August 21, 2008
VIA CM/ECF
U.S.D.C., Eastern District of California 100011.001

2500 Tulare St., #1501
Fresno, CA 93721
Re: Severe Ongoing Deposition Disputes Which Go Unpunished by this Court

Jadwin / County of Kern, et al. (USDC EDCA No. 1:07-cv-00026-OWW/TAG)
To the Honorable Court:
I am counsel of record for Plaintiff. Both I and Mark Wasser, counsel of record for Defendants,
are seeking the assistance of the Court to resolve numerous discovery disputes which have arisen
in depositions. I have attached rough transcripts of the depositions in question, i.e., the
depositions of Toni Smith and of Barbara Patrick.
Defendants’ misconduct in discovery in this action is beyond the pale. This Court has seen fit to
deny Plaintiff’s repeated requests for protective orders and sanctions against this misconduct.
Plaintiff has been prejudiced in countless ways and intends to seek appellate redress at the
appropriate time. In the meantime, Plaintiff again requests this Court act to curb Defendants’
discovery obstruction and abuse.
Following is a synopsis of the disputes.
I. Plaintiff’s Request for Protective Order re Personal Property; and Request for
Sanctions
I am seeking an order that prohibits Mr. Wasser from touching or threatening to touch my
personal property again without my permission. In addition, I am yet again seeking sanctions
against Mr. Wasser, this time for his misconduct in damaging my property. At a minimum, I
would appreciate being provided with compensation for my equipment loss. Following is an
explanation of how Mr. Wasser damaged my equipment.
At the deposition of Toni Smith conducted during the morning of August 19, 2008, I stated on
the record that I had heard Mr. Wasser tapping his foot against deponent’s foot during a critical
line of questioning regarding Dr. Royce Johnson, a comparator for Plaintiff. (Smith Deposition,
88:19-23). During a colloquoy in which Mr. Wasser denied he had tapped deponent’s foot, he
stood up, reached across the conference table, and without my permission, picked up my
webcam which I had been using to videotape Mr. Wasser (I had previously given notice to Mr.
Wasser that I would be videotaping him because of his egregious and persistent obstruction and
misconduct in nearly every deposition in this action. Plaintiff has twice sought a protective order
re depositions from this Court. Both times, the Court denied Plaintiff’s requests, stating that the
Court had faith Mr. Wasser would not engage in misconduct.). Mr. Wasser grabbed the webcam
by the stalk, sat down, repositioned his feet, then pointed the webcam at his feet as if to prove he
had not tapped deponent’s feet. (90:16-23). The webcam is a top-of-the-line Logitech Orbit AF
for which I paid $129.99. The instructions that came with the webcam specifically state that the
camera should not be handled or held by the stalk, which is exactly what Mr. Wasser did. I asked
Mr. Wasser to release my camera and give it back to me. (90:24-25). He refused. (91:1-4). I also
warned him he was going to damage my webcam handling it in the manner he was doing.
(90:19). After I eventually got my webcam back, I warned Mr. Wasser not to touch my
equipment again without my permission. Mr. Wasser repeatedly stated, “I will touch the
camera”. (91:18; 92:4; 92:12-14). A few minutes later, he stood up and this time grabbed both of
my webcams by their stalks. (93: 22). He replaced the webcams on the table. Then, about a
minute later, Mr. Wasser again stood up and again grabbed both of my webcams by their stalks.
(94:18-22). After he again replaced both webcams on the table, I noticed the Orbit AF was no
longer working and stated so on the record, at which point I adjourned the deposition to seek a
protective order. (95:1-4).
II. Plaintiff’s Request for Order Reconvening Deposition of Barbara Patrick and
Compelling Responses; Motion for Protective Order re Speaking Objections and
Witness Coaching; and Request for Sanctions
During Plaintiff’s deposition of Ms. Patrick, Mr. Wasser engaged in numerous and egregious
speaking objections which coached deponent how to answer and were intended to frustrate
Plaintiff’s examination. (43:16 – 46:4; 47:10-11; 63:14-64:12; 64:24 – 65:12; ). At one point,
Mr. Wasser chose to engage in an irrelevant and time-consuming diatribe on the difference in
criminal law between “malum in se” and “malum prohibitive” (62:1-63:1):
14:20:52 1 MR. WASSER: Counsel, your questions are

14:20:53 2 objectionable on innumerable bases, but among the
14:20:57 3 examples you gave are not analogous to the statutory
14:21:04 4 violations. There's the difference in the criminal
14:21:08 5 law between malum in se and malum prohibitive and
14:21:13 6 you're trying to make a distinction for the witness
14:21:16 7 that she's having trouble with.
As shown by the above excerpt, Mr. Wasser’s conduct at the deposition was egregious and
abusive. Plaintiff repeatedly asked that he state his objections succinctly as required by the FRCP
but he refused.
Following Mr. Wasser’s lead, deponent repeatedly refused to answer Plaintiff’s questions. She
instead played word games with Plaintiff, deliberately giving answers to questions which
Plaintiff had not been asked and which deponent deliberately misinterpreted. (47:24 – 48:5; 48:9-
25; 50:23 – 59:1; 64:14-18). Meanwhile, Mr. Wasser added to the chaos by repeatedly
haranguing Plaintiff and stating that Plaintiff’s question had been answered by deponent when it
had not. (48:6 – 49:18). This coordinated tactic of Mr. Wasser’s and deponent’s achieved its
intended goal of burning up significant amounts of time on the record and pages of deposition
transcript, all the while denying Plaintiff a single response to his questions. Plaintiff admonished
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and warned deponent and Mr. Wasser that continued refusals to respond to questioning could
force Plaintiff to adjourn the deposition, but the warning was to no avail. (66:4-6).
Plaintiff seeks an order reconvening Ms. Patrick’s deposition, compelling her to respond to
Plaintiff’s questions and refrain from obstruction, imposing sanctions on her and/or Mr. Wasser,
as well as a protective order against Mr. Wasser re speaking objections, coaching and
obstruction.
It should be noted that Ms. Patrick openly and voluntarily admitted on the record – without any
prompting by Plaintiff – to shredding evidence in this action. Plaintiff will be seeking the
appropriate sanctions for Ms. Patrick’s spoliation of evidence once the transcript becomes
available.
III. Plaintiff’s Request for Motion to Reconvene Deposition of Toni Smith and Compel
Responses; and Request for Sanctions
Plaintiff also seeks an order to reconvene the deposition of Toni Smith. Although Plaintiff had
adjourned the deposition due to Mr. Wasser’s damaging my equipment, previous to that,
Defendants had adjourned Ms. Smith’s deposition based on Plaintiff’s repeatedly asking the
same question to Ms. Smith. The parties had later agreed to continue the deposition on the
understanding that Plaintiff would not be permitted to ask Ms. Smith questions regarding the
demotion of Plaintiff pending the Court’s ruling on Defendants’ adjournment due to Plaintiff’s
repetitive questions.
Following is the question which prompted Mr. Wasser to instruct deponent not to answer based
on an objection that the question had already been repeatedly asked. As Plaintiff attempted to
give an admonition to deponent, Mr. Wasser then chose to adjourn the deposition:
09:49:09 19 Q. You did not.

09:49:11 20 Besides Dr. Jadwin's physical unavailability
09:49:29 21 and absence from the hospital, what other basis did
09:49:33 22 you hear about at the removal meeting to -- that
09:49:37 23 dictated -- that persuaded you to vote in favor of
09:49:41 24 removing Dr. Jadwin?
Plaintiff challenges Defendants to identify a single other place in the deposition transcript where
Plaintiff had previously asked this question. They will not find any because this was the first and
only time Plaintiff asked deponent the question. Defendants’ instruction not to answer and then
adjournment of the deposition was baseless and improper and merits sanctions. Plaintiff seeks a
motion for an order to re-convene the deposition and requests sanctions against Mr. Wasser for
his inappropriate conduct. Furthermore, Plaintiff reiterates his request for a protective order
against Mr. Wasser.
IV. Pending Deposition Disputes
Plaintiff further notes that the behavior of Mr. Wasser complained of above was replicated in full
this morning at Plaintiff’s deposition of Dr. Dutt. Plaintiff intends to seek sanctions, an order
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reconvening his deposition and a protective order against Mr. Wasser for egregious speaking
objections, witness coaching and obstruction on the record.
It should be noted that Dr. Dutt admitted on the record to continued failure to produce
voluminous, material documents in response to numerous document production requests
propounded by Plaintiff on October 11, 2007. Plaintiff has been utterly prejudiced by the non-
production of these documents and will be seeking sanctions and other appropriate remedies
against Defendants and/or Mr. Wasser once the transcript is available.
Further, Defendants have yet to schedule a single one of the 4 depositions ordered to be
reconvened by this Court at the last hearing. With time fast running out, Plaintiff anticipates
having to request an OSC why Defendants’ have not complied with the Court’s order.
Plaintiff has every reason to believe Mr. Wasser will continue his obstruction at every remaining
deposition for the foreseeable future. Already, the Court has had to order the reconvening of 4
depositions. Plaintiff would not be surprised if, in the end, the Court will need to order the
reconvening of nearly all of the 17 depositions which the Court had previously ordered the
parties to convene. (Doc. 194).
V. Conclusion
Plaintiff and Defendants are jointly requesting the Court’s intercession in ongoing and
continuing deposition disputes. The Court has already ordered the parties to adhere to a rigorous
deposition schedule of 17 depositions in 11 days, which became necessary as a result of
Defendants’ unilateral and improper refusal to produce a single deponent in response to
Plaintiff’s properly served deposition notices served on July 3, 2008. Now, Defendants continue
to engage in misconduct with impunity, threatening further delay and continuances. Plaintiff
urgently requests the Court’s assistance to avoid additional prejudice to Plaintiff.
Very truly yours,
EUGENE D. LEE
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Case 1:07-cv-00026-OWW-TAG Document 202-2 Filed 08/21/2008 Page 1 of 85
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1
1 WOOD & RANDALL

2 Certified Shorthand Reporters
3 Bakersfield and Fresno Offices

4 800.322.4595 or randall@bakersfieldcourtreporter.com
5
6 (BE ADVISED THAT ALL ROUGH DRAFTS WILL BE FOLLOWED BY
7 A CERTIFIED COPY AND BILLED APPROPRIATELY)

8
9 ROUGH DRAFT
10 UNCERTIFIED TRANSCRIPT
11 Deposition of
12 ANTOINETTE CATHERINE SMITH
13 Tuesday, August 19, 2008
14
15 This realtime draft is unedited and
16 uncertified and may contain untranslated steno, an

17 occasional reporter's note and/or nonsensical English
18 word combinations. All such entries will be
19 corrected on the final certified transcript upon its

20 delivery to you in accordance with our standard
21 delivery terms.
22 This realtime draft is intended only for the
23 purpose of augmenting counsel's notes and is not

24 intended to be used or cited in any court
25 proceedings.
ROUGH DRAFT
NOT A CERTIFIED TRANSCRIPT

2
09:09:27 1 EXAMINATION
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09:09:27 2 BY MR. LEE:
09:09:30 3 Q. Ms. Smith will you please state your full
09:09:32 4 name for the record.
09:09:33 5 A. Antoinette Catherine Smith.

09:09:36 6 Q. Thank you.
09:09:37 7 You're appearing under an order of the

09:09:39 8 court. Is that correct?
09:09:40 9 A. Yes, sir.
09:09:41 10 Q. Okay. Have you ever had your deposition

09:09:43 11 taken before?
09:09:44 12 A. Yes, sir.
09:09:45 13 Q. And when?

09:09:48 14 A. The approximate time frame was, gosh, I
09:09:51 15 can't tell you. Maybe two or three years ago.
09:09:54 16 Q. An estimate is good enough?
09:09:55 17 A. Okay.
09:09:56 18 Q. And what was that for? Were you a witness
09:09:59 19 or a party in that?
09:10:01 20 A. It -- it was related to a -- a lawsuit that
09:10:07 21 a patient had brought at -- for -- a patient care

09:10:13 22 issue at Kern Medical Center.
09:10:14 23 Q. And were you named as a defendant or were
09:10:16 24 you just deposed as a witness?

09:10:19 25 A. You know, I can't remember. I was deposed
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09:10:27 1 originally as a defendant I think and then -- and

09:10:30 2 then dropped as a defendant.
09:10:32 3 Q. Dropped, okay.

09:10:35 4 How many other depositions do you --
09:10:36 5 A. That was the one and only.
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09:10:38 6 Q. One and only. Good.
09:10:40 7 Okay. So you're not a deposition virgin but

09:10:43 8 I'll ask you a few questions -- just lay some ground
09:10:46 9 rules out for you anyway --
09:10:47 10 A. Okay.
09:10:47 11 Q. -- just to remind you.
09:10:48 12 A. That would be helpful.
09:10:50 13 Q. So the lady sitting to your left is a court
09:10:52 14 reporter and her job is to transcribe and record

09:10:55 15 everything that is said today, my questions and your
09:10:58 16 answers, and create a transcript. She can only
09:11:02 17 record what's said; so when you respond to a question
09:11:05 18 please do not shake your head or nod your head in

09:11:08 19 response or shrug your shoulders or say uh-huh or
09:11:12 20 huh-uh. Please clearly state yes or no so she can
09:11:15 21 create a clean record.
09:11:17 22 Also, this is very difficult for most people
09:11:20 23 to do. This is not natural. But please wait for me

09:11:22 24 to finish my question before you begin speaking. The
09:11:25 25 worst thing that can happen is when two people talk
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09:11:28 1 over each other and the reporter just throws her
09:11:30 2 hands up in despair. So for her sake please wait for
09:11:34 3 me to finish my question. Also before you answer
09:11:37 4 questions it's very important you understand the

09:11:40 5 question if you answer a question it will be presumed
09:11:42 6 that you understood it. So to be very short please
09:11:46 7 ask me to rephrase or restate a question if you don't
09:11:48 8 understand it before you answer. Do you understand?
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09:11:50 9 A. Yes.
09:11:52 10 Q. The oath you've been administered has the
09:11:54 11 same force and effect as an oath administered in a
09:11:57 12 court of law before a judge and/or a jury. You are

09:12:01 13 under the same duty to tell the truth and the whole
09:12:03 14 truth. Do you understand that?

09:12:04 15 A. Yes.
09:12:06 16 Q. If at any time you have given testimony and
09:12:09 17 you decide later that it's not correct or it's

09:12:12 18 incomplete, please feel free to state that you want
09:12:15 19 to correct or add to previous -- prior testimony and
09:12:20 20 make sure you do so before the end of the deposition.

09:12:22 21 We'd like to have as accurate as transcript as
09:12:26 22 possible?
09:12:27 23 A. Yes.
09:12:28 24 Q. Okay. So are you aware of any reason why

09:12:31 25 today's deposition can't proceed?
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09:12:33 1 A. No.
09:12:34 2 Q. Is there anything that prevents or restricts
09:12:37 3 from you giving your best and most truthful answer?
09:12:39 4 A. No.
09:12:40 5 Q. And have you taken any medication, drugs, or
09:12:42 6 alcohol in the last 24 hours?
09:12:46 7 A. Yes.
09:12:46 8 Q. You have? Without specifying, can you just

09:12:49 9 tell me if you believe it will affect your testimony
09:12:52 10 today?
09:12:53 11 A. No.
09:12:54 12 Q. Okay. Okay. Did you engage in any
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09:13:01 13 preparations for today's deposition?
09:13:03 14 A. No.
09:13:04 15 Q. Did you speak with your attorney about
09:13:05 16 today's deposition?
09:13:07 17 A. Yes.
09:13:08 18 Q. Okay. Did you speak to anyone else about
09:13:10 19 today's deposition?
09:13:12 20 A. No. I mean, I saw a friend at the gym and
09:13:15 21 said I was going to go have my deposition taken.

09:13:18 22 Q. Okay. And have you looked at any documents
09:13:21 23 in preparation for today?
09:13:22 24 A. No, I haven't.
09:13:28 25 Q. Do you understand what this lawsuit is

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09:13:29 1 about?
09:13:31 2 A. Actually I don't know all the details of it.
09:13:35 3 Q. Tell me your understanding of what it is.
09:13:38 4 A. My understanding is that Dr. Jadwin is

09:13:41 5 unhappy because he was removed as chair of the
09:13:47 6 department of pathology. That's really all I know.
09:13:51 7 Q. Sure. That's fine.
09:13:54 8 What is your exact title, your job?

09:14:02 9 A. Chief nursing officer.
09:14:04 10 Q. Chief nursing officer and how -- when did
09:14:08 11 you first join -- when did you first become employed
09:14:12 12 by the County of Kern, roughly?
09:14:14 13 A. Roughly September of '96.
09:14:18 14 Q. Okay. So you're going on about 12 years of

09:14:21 15 employment now?
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09:14:22 16 A. Yes.
09:14:24 17 Q. And what position did you start at had you
09:14:26 18 first came to Kern Medical Center?
09:14:27 19 A. The same position.

09:14:28 20 Q. Same position.
09:14:29 21 And when did you become a member of the

09:14:39 22 joint conference committee at Kern Medical Center?
09:14:42 23 A. I believe I began to go to the meetings at
09:14:49 24 the -- of the joint conference committee when I

09:14:52 25 started my employment there.
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09:14:56 1 Q. Okay. And you're there in your capacity as
09:15:00 2 chief nursing officer. Correct?
09:15:03 3 A. Yes, sir.
09:15:03 4 Q. Do you have a vote at the JCC?
09:15:07 5 A. Yes, I do.

09:15:08 6 Q. Do you recall a meeting of the joint
09:15:11 7 conference committee of July 10, 2006, where the
09:15:14 8 matter came before the JCC of whether to remove

09:15:17 9 Dr. Jadwin from chair of pathology?
09:15:20 10 A. I don't -- I couldn't testify to the date,
09:15:23 11 but I do remember that meeting.
09:15:26 12 Q. Okay. So you were present at that meeting?

09:15:28 13 A. I was.
09:15:32 14 Q. Who else was at that meeting? Was it the
09:15:34 15 entire JCC?

09:15:36 16 A. Well, at times there are members of the JCC
09:15:38 17 that are not able to attend because of absence from
09:15:42 18 the city or other obligations, that meaning I don't

09:15:47 19 recall if everyone was there or not.
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09:15:52 20 Q. Do you recall if David Culberson?
09:15:59 21 A. David Culberson.

09:16:01 22 Q. I believe he was the interim CEO.
09:16:03 23 A. He was the interim CEO at Kern Medical
09:16:08 24 Center. I didn't recall that this occurred when he

09:16:10 25 was there but maybe he did.
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09:16:13 1 Q. Well, he was the interim CEO from, what,

09:16:15 2 September to December of '06. Is that correct? Does
09:16:19 3 that sound right?
09:16:20 4 Well, Peter Bryan, he retired around

09:16:23 5 September of 2006. Correct?
09:16:24 6 A. I do know that Pete retired in September.
09:16:28 7 Q. Right. And that's when David Culberson came
09:16:30 8 as the interim CEO. Correct?
09:16:31 9 A. David did come in following Pete. That's

09:16:34 10 correct.
09:16:34 11 Q. And he was the interim CEO for about two,
09:16:37 12 three months, four months?

09:16:38 13 A. He was there until a permanent CEO was
09:16:41 14 selected and that sounds like the right time frame.
09:16:43 15 Q. And the permanent CEO is Paul Hensler.
09:16:47 16 Right?
09:16:47 17 A. Correct.
09:16:47 18 Q. So David Culberson couldn't have been at
09:16:51 19 that JCC meeting in July -- well, I'll represent to
09:16:52 20 you that Dr. Jadwin was -- his removal was voted on
09:16:56 21 and approved at the meeting of the JCC of July 10,
09:17:00 22 2006. So David Culberson couldn't have been in that
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09:17:03 23 joint conference meeting then around July, could he
09:17:06 24 have?
09:17:07 25 A. As I recall, Mr. Bryan was the CEO at the
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09:17:11 1 time that it happened.

09:17:12 2 Q. Okay. So Mr. Bryan, was he present at this
09:17:15 3 JCC meeting?

09:17:18 4 A. As best as I can recall.
09:17:20 5 Q. Okay. Just for the sake of brevity if you
09:17:23 6 don't mind I'm going to refer to the JCC meeting of
09:17:25 7 July 10, 2006, where Dr. Jadwin's removal as chair
09:17:31 8 was noted on and approved I'm going to refer to that
09:17:33 9 as the removal meeting. Is that okay with you?

09:17:35 10 A. That's fine.
09:17:36 11 Q. It's a lot shorter.
09:17:37 12 A. Okay.
09:17:38 13 Q. So do you recall whether Jose Perez was at
09:17:41 14 this removal meeting?
09:17:45 15 A. Dr. Perez was a member of the JCC; so if the
09:17:49 16 attendance shows that he was there.
09:17:54 17 Q. Do you recall if --

09:17:54 18 MR. WASSER: I /PHAOEUFT just say the best
09:17:56 19 evidence of who was there are the minutes. It's very
09:18:00 20 more reliable than memory after two years. The
09:18:04 21 minutes should recite who was there and who wasn't
09:18:06 22 there.
09:18:06 23 MR. LEE: It's a good point.
09:18:07 24 MR. WASSER: And those would be the official
09:18:09 25 record the meeting.

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09:18:10 1 MR. LEE: That's a good P you know I'll look

09:18:12 2 into that later /S* /S* /S* /S*.
09:18:14 3 BY MR. LEE:

09:18:14 4 Q. And do you recall how you voted on this
09:18:16 5 removal of Dr. Jadwin at the me /ROFL meeting?
09:18:22 6 A. To my best recollection I voted for his

09:18:24 7 removal.
09:18:25 8 Q. And do you recall -- I believe there was a
09:18:28 9 couple of abstentions. Do you recall who abstained

09:18:30 10 on the vote?
09:18:34 11 A. I believe Dr. Ragland abstained.
09:18:39 12 Q. Okay.
09:18:40 13 A. But I do not remember anyone else.
09:18:44 14 Q. Do you believe David Hill might have
09:18:46 15 abstained? He was the director of ambulatory care?
09:18:49 16 A. David Hill didn't -- is not a voting
09:18:55 17 member -- was not.

09:18:58 18 Q. Any idea why Dr. Ragland might have
09:19:00 19 abstained from the vote?
09:19:02 20 A. I have -- I have no conversation with him or

09:19:04 21 after.
09:19:04 22 ( I had.)
09:19:05 23 Q. Okay. And why did you vote to remove
09:19:11 24 Dr. Jadwin from chair?
09:19:13 25 A.
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09:19:13 1 ( Remove?
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09:19:14 2 A. My rational for removing him from chair was
09:19:18 3 because of his absence from the premises. He had not
09:19:25 4 been present for quite some time, as I recall, I
09:19:28 5 can't tell you the amount of time. And as you might
09:19:32 6 know, those positions are extremely important and we
09:19:36 7 need to have a chair who is present to do the work of

09:19:42 8 the department.
09:19:42 9 Q. When you say absence ask presence, you mean
09:19:46 10 physical presence?

09:19:47 11 A. Correct?
09:19:47 12 A. Correct.
09:19:49 13 Q. Okay. And were you aware of why Dr. Jadwin

09:19:52 14 was /TPW-L /KHREU absent from Kern Medical Center for
09:19:54 15 a large part of 2006?
09:19:57 16 A.
09:19:57 17 ( Physically.)
09:19:59 18 A. I have no idea. I believe there was mention
09:20:04 19 that it was -- actually, I have no idea.
09:20:12 20 Q. No idea?
09:20:14 21 A. No idea. It was basically due to his

09:20:16 22 unavailability.
09:20:19 23 Q. Due to his unavailability.
09:20:21 24 And -- okay. Did Dr. -- well, who was --

09:20:29 25 who brought this -- this agenda item to the JCC of
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09:20:32 1 Dr. Jadwin's removal? Do you recall?

09:20:36 2 A. To the best of my recollection it was
09:20:38 3 Mr. Bryan.

09:20:39 4 Q. Mr. Bryan and do you recall why -- was there
09:20:46 5 any ex marijuana /AEUGS given as to why physical
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09:20:50 6 presence of a chair is so critical at Kern Medical
09:20:54 7 Center is there any explanation or is that something

09:20:56 8 you just understood or assumed?
09:20:58 9 A. It's something I know.
09:21:00 10 Q. Um-hmm?
09:21:00 11 A. Because I work with them every single day
09:21:02 12 and we have business to do every single day,
09:21:06 13 depending on what the issues are, there are
09:21:09 14 decisions, there's management issues, there are

09:21:13 15 employee issues, they're patient issues, and the
09:21:16 16 department needs leadership.
09:21:18 17 Q. So to your recollection there was no
09:21:20 18 discussion of why the physical presence of a chair is

09:21:23 19 required at Kern Medical Center during the removal
09:21:27 20 meeting?
09:21:32 21 A. I don't think there was a discussion as to
09:21:36 22 details. I think in my mind maybe I didn't pay any
09:21:39 23 attention. It's an understood issue.

09:21:43 24 Q. Okay. Did you ever discuss this requirement
09:21:59 25 that a chair has to be physically present at Kern

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09:22:02 1 Medical Center with anybody else before or after the

09:22:04 2 meeting?
09:22:06 3 A. As far as related to Dr. Jadwin?
09:22:09 4 Q. Or -- yeah. Related --

09:22:12 5 A. No. I mean, not that particular one. But
09:22:15 6 the issue of a chair needing to be present is -- is
09:22:21 7 routinely discussed as a matter ever business because
09:22:23 8 when vacancies are there we try to fill them as soon
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09:22:27 9 as possible and interim folks are appointed because
09:22:32 10 the absence is -- leaves a gaping hole.
09:22:35 11 Q. And you said that you had no idea why
09:22:38 12 Dr. Jadwin was not available, why he was physically

09:22:42 13 absent. Do you think that's because -- well, do you
09:22:46 14 have any recollection at all of that being discussed

09:22:48 15 or reasons why Dr. Jadwin was physically absent?
09:22:51 16 A. Well, the -- the only -- no. I believe that
09:22:57 17 I am aware somewhere in the course of things and I

09:23:00 18 don't know if that was during that time or previous
09:23:02 19 to that time or subsequent to that time that there
09:23:05 20 was a medical leave.

09:23:09 21 Q. Okay. But you are aware at the time of the
09:23:11 22 removal meeting that Dr. Jadwin was unavailable at
09:23:14 23 least in part due to medical leave?
09:23:17 24 A. I was only aware that he was -- had been

09:23:20 25 unavailable for a long period of time.
ROUGH DRAFT

14
09:23:23 1 Q. Did you think it was important to know why

09:23:24 2 Dr. Jadwin was unavailable for a long period of time?
09:23:29 3 A. I wasn't -- I'm not sure it was my privilege
09:23:32 4 to know that.

09:23:35 5 Q. So you thought it was privileged
09:23:41 6 information?
09:23:42 7 A. It potentially could have been. You know,
09:23:44 8 as far as I was concerned. But again, it may have

09:23:48 9 been discussed. I mean, I just truly don't remember
09:23:51 10 that part.
09:23:52 11 Q. You just don't remember that part.

09:23:54 12 So you don't remember one way or the other
Page 12
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09:23:56 13 whether the reason for Dr. Jadwin's unavailability
09:23:58 14 was discussed at the removal meeting?

09:24:03 15 A. The reason that I remember and that's all I
09:24:07 16 could say as an answer to that question is that he
09:24:11 17 was not -- had not been there for a lengthy period of
09:24:15 18 time.
09:24:17 19 Q. Okay. And you recall whether there was any
09:24:21 20 discussion of whether Dr. Dutt could have filled the
09:24:24 21 acting or interim chair role during Dr. Jadwin's

09:24:28 22 physical absence or unavailability at KMC?
09:24:32 23 A. Do you mean on a move forward basis or a
09:24:35 24 historical basis while he was gone.
09:24:38 25 Q. Well, isn't it -- I'm asking this question,

ROUGH DRAFT

15
09:24:41 1 is it or is it not a common arrangement that when a

09:24:44 2 chair going to be absent from the hospital for a long
09:24:46 3 time that an interim chair would be appointed to kind
09:24:49 4 of hold the fort down, an acting or interim chair

09:24:53 5 would be appointed?
09:24:55 6 A. There have been times when that's done.
09:24:56 7 That's correct.
09:24:56 8 Q. Can you name some examples?

09:25:01 9 A. Well, currently we don't have a department
09:25:05 10 chair in OB/GYN and our chief medical officer,
09:25:13 11 Dr. Kercher, was been appointed as an interim chair.

09:25:17 12 Q. Dr. Kercher has, not Dr. Wallace?
09:25:20 13 A. Dr. Wallace had been -- he was initially
09:25:25 14 appointed and Dr. Wallace is no longer there.

09:25:27 15 Q. Oh, he's no longer there.
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A0819rfa (2)
09:25:28 16 Do you know why Dr. Wallace is no longer
09:25:32 17 there?
09:25:33 18 A. No. Okay. Can you think of any other
09:25:39 19 examples?
09:25:41 20 MR. WASSER: Your question was if she knew
09:25:43 21 of any instances where an interim had been appointed

09:25:46 22 because a chair was going to be absent for a long
09:25:49 23 period of time. That's not the question she just
09:25:52 24 answered.
09:25:52 25 THE WITNESS: Thank you for that.
ROUGH DRAFT

16
09:25:53 1 BY MR. LEE:
09:25:54 2 Q. You didn't understand that? Do you want me
09:25:55 3 to repeat the question again?
09:25:57 4 MR. WASSER: Let's just make sure the two of
09:25:59 5 you are communicating. I don't think she answered

09:26:01 6 the question.
09:26:01 7 THE WITNESS: My -- I was under the
09:26:02 8 impression that you were asking me has there been an

09:26:05 9 instance where an interim has been appointed.
10 BY MR. LEE:
09:26:07 11 Q. Oh, yeah.
09:26:08 12 A. Not -- okay. Not when -- not when we've

09:26:11 13 known that there is -- chair was going to be absent
09:26:14 14 for a long period of time.
09:26:16 15 Q. Okay. So you can't think of any --

09:26:19 16 A. So to answer your question no, I can't think
09:26:21 17 of a time when we have knowingly known that the --
09:26:24 18 that the chair was going to be absent for a long

09:26:26 19 period of time and an interim was appointed --
Page 14
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09:26:30 20 MR. WASSER: During the absence.
09:26:31 21 THE WITNESS: During the absence.

09:26:33 22 BY MR. LEE:
09:26:33 23 Q. Okay.
09:26:33 24 A. Okay. It's been -- the instances that I am

09:26:36 25 aware have been totally when we have had no chair.
ROUGH DRAFT

17
09:26:41 1 Q. Gotcha?
09:26:41 2 THE WITNESS: Thank you.
09:26:42 3 BY MR. LEE:
09:26:43 4 Q. Okay. Well, was that a consideration at all

09:26:46 5 during -- for you at least during this removal
09:26:48 6 meeting that an interim chair could have been
09:26:50 7 appointed to basically hold the fort down in the
09:26:54 8 department of pathology until Dr. Jadwin was -- was
09:26:57 9 no longer -- was available again?

09:27:00 10 A. That decision was not mine to consider.
09:27:05 11 Q. But it's -- it's certainly an alternative to
09:27:09 12 permanent removal of the chair from Dr. Jadwin, isn't

09:27:13 13 it?
09:27:13 14 A. That's not my decision either.

09:27:19 15 Q. Well, why -- I mean, whose -- you could
09:27:25 16 have -- I mean, in theory you could have voted no?
09:27:28 17 Right? And you could have proposed an alternative

09:27:32 18 arrangement such as appointing an acting or interim
09:27:34 19 chair to hold the fort down until Dr. Jadwin was
09:27:37 20 available again. Right?

09:27:38 21 A. Well, those are two separate questions. The
09:27:40 22 first one I could have voted no. The answer is yes,
Page 15
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09:27:43 23 I could have voted no.
09:27:45 24 Q. Yeah.
09:27:45 25 A. I voted yes.
ROUGH DRAFT

18
09:27:47 1 The second one, could I have proposed that

09:27:52 2 an interim chair be appointed? I suppose I could
09:28:00 3 have proposed anything, you know, but I didn't.

09:28:03 4 Q. Well, I mean, it's a bit drastic to remove
09:28:06 5 someone from chair. I assume it's not an every day
09:28:08 6 occurrence at KMC, is it?
09:28:11 7 A. It's not an every day occurrence that the
09:28:13 8 chair is absent for a year or greater than a year.
09:28:16 9 In fact, I've never seen that happen in my experience

09:28:19 10 there other than with Dr. Jadwin and I cer- -- he was
09:28:23 11 absent for a very long time.
09:28:25 12 Q. Um-hmm.
09:28:26 13 Well to your recollection how long was
09:28:28 14 Dr. Jadwin absent?
09:28:33 15 A. To my recollection, it was a year or
09:28:36 16 greater.
09:28:36 17 Q. A year or greater.

09:28:38 18 A. I mean, I think so.
09:28:41 19 Q. And do you recall whether or not Dr. Jadwin

09:28:44 20 was absent full time or part time during that year or
09:28:49 21 so?
09:28:53 22 A. I don't recall.

09:28:56 23 Q. Do you think it might have made a difference
09:28:58 24 to your vote?
09:29:01 25 MR. WASSER: If what?

ROUGH DRAFT
Page 16
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19
09:29:02 1 BY MR. LEE:

09:29:02 2 Q. If he had been absent full time versus part
09:29:05 3 time?
09:29:05 4 A. If he had been absent, you know, would days
09:29:10 5 out of a year, I mean, I wouldn't call that absent.
09:29:17 6 So I'm not sure what you're referring to as part time

09:29:20 7 absence, you know, if the greater part of the year he
09:29:25 8 was gone, I consider that to be absent.
09:29:28 9 Q. Well let's say Dr. Jadwin was during his

09:29:30 10 part time leave, let's say he was on part time leave
09:29:33 11 and he was working one to two days a week.
09:29:37 12 Would that have made any difference in your

09:29:39 13 vote?
09:29:39 14 A. No.
09:29:39 15 Q. And why is that?
09:29:42 16 A. I think I tried to explain earlier that my
09:29:46 17 opinion is the chair needs to be present in the

09:29:48 18 department full time in order to manage the
09:29:51 19 department.
09:29:52 20 Q. I see.
09:29:53 21 Okay. And now, I don't know if I actually
09:30:00 22 got an answer to this previously, but do you recall

09:30:04 23 any discussion of the reasons why Dr. Jadwin was
09:30:08 24 unavailable or physically absent?
09:30:11 25 A. No. I -- I indicated that I don't.

ROUGH DRAFT

20
09:30:14 1 Q. You don't remember.
Page 17
A0819rfa (2)
09:30:15 2 So in other words, you don't remember one
09:30:17 3 way or the other. It's possible it was discussed or
09:30:19 4 it's possible it wasn't?
09:30:20 5 A. I believe I said that it was possible

09:30:25 6 that -- the fact that he had been absent for an
09:30:29 7 extended period of time had been discussed. I'm

09:30:31 8 aware of that. I don't know whether it was at that
09:30:34 9 meeting or in another discussion.
09:30:36 10 Q. Okay. So I mean again that's a little bit

09:30:40 11 different answer to a different question. But the
09:30:41 12 question I'm asking is if you have any recollection
09:30:44 13 at all of whether the reason for Dr. Jadwin's

09:30:46 14 unavailability was discussed at the JCC -- I mean at
09:30:50 15 the removal meeting?
09:30:51 16 A. I don't recall that.
09:30:52 17 MR. WASSER: You've covered that a few times

09:30:54 18 now.
09:30:54 19 BY MR. LEE:
09:30:57 20 Q. So you don't recall that one way or another.
09:31:00 21 Correct?
09:31:00 22 A. (Witness nods head.)
09:31:00 23 Q. Do you think it would have been important
09:31:00 24 for your decision -- I know you said you thought it

09:31:03 25 was privileged information but even so do you think
ROUGH DRAFT

21
09:31:04 1 it would have been important for your decision to

09:31:06 2 know why Dr. Jadwin was unavailable during 2006?
09:31:09 3 MR. WASSER: And you asked her that before

09:31:10 4 and she's answered that question at least one.
09:31:13 5 MR. LEE: I said even though privilege
Page 18
A0819rfa (2)
09:31:17 6 notwithstanding.
09:31:18 7 MR. WASSER: Yeah, she -- answer it again.

09:31:21 8 THE WITNESS: No. He was gone for an
09:31:24 9 extended period of time.
09:31:24 10 BY MR. LEE:

09:31:25 11 Q. Okay.
09:31:26 12 A. And I believe we need to have a department
09:31:27 13 chair there.
09:31:28 14 Q. Regardless for the reason for the

09:31:30 15 unavailability?
09:31:31 16 A. Correct.
09:31:37 17 Q. Do you know anything about the medical leave
09:31:38 18 laws?
09:31:41 19 A. No.
09:31:43 20 Q. Okay. Are you familiar with the term
09:31:45 21 California family rights act?
09:31:48 22 A. Yes.
09:31:49 23 Q. What does that mean to you?

09:31:52 24 A. It means basically that -- that when someone
09:31:58 25 asks for a leave of absence that I make sure that I

ROUGH DRAFT

22
09:32:01 1 refer them to our H.R. department to have all of the

09:32:05 2 details handled appropriately.
09:32:07 3 Q. Um-hmm. Um-hmm.
09:32:09 4 So if someone comes to you requesting a

09:32:11 5 California family rights act leave you would say go
09:32:15 6 to H.R.?
09:32:16 7 A. Absolutely.
09:32:17 8 Q. Okay. And are you also familiar with the
Page 19
A0819rfa (2)
09:32:21 9 term Family & Medical Leave Act?
09:32:25 10 A. Similarly to the other one.
09:32:28 11 Q. So are you -- are you aware that people have
09:32:31 12 a right to medical leave?

09:32:33 14 Q. You do? Okay. Even if it causes

09:32:35 15 unavailability of physical absence from Kern Medical
09:32:38 16 Center?
09:32:41 17 A. Yes.
09:32:42 18 Q. Okay. So if I tell you -- you said you
09:32:45 19 later became aware Dr. Jadwin was on some kind of
09:32:47 20 medical leave?

09:32:48 21 MR. WASSER: She said it it could have been
09:32:50 22 later or earlier. She doesn't remember, counsel.
09:32:52 23 Don't misstate her testimony.
09:32:53 24 BY MR. LEE:

09:32:54 25 Q. Okay. So you can't remember, but at some
ROUGH DRAFT

23
09:32:55 1 point you learned that Dr. Jadwin was on medical

09:32:56 2 leave. Right?
09:32:59 3 A. I -- there was discussion about the fact
09:33:01 4 that he had had some medical leave.

09:33:04 5 Q. Okay. Do you recall where this
09:33:05 6 discussion -- who was in this discussion, the
09:33:07 7 circumstances?
09:33:08 8 A. No.
09:33:09 9 Q. You don't recall the timing of this
09:33:10 10 discussion?
09:33:11 11 A. No, sir.

09:33:11 12 MR. WASSER: She's answered that, counsel.
Page 20
A0819rfa (2)
09:33:13 13 BY MR. LEE:
09:33:14 14 Q. Okay. So now, when the -- when you learned

09:33:18 15 that Dr. Jadwin had been on some kind of a medical
09:33:21 16 leave did it -- did it make any difference to you as
09:33:24 17 to Dr. Jadwin's unavailability?

09:33:26 18 MR. WASSER: You asked her that.
09:33:28 19 THE WITNESS: From the -- no. Obvious --
09:33:37 20 you know.
21 BY MR. LEE:
09:33:38 22 Q. It wouldn't have made a difference? I mean,
09:33:39 23 had you actually learned of his medical leave it
09:33:42 24 didn't make a difference for you. Right.
09:33:44 25 A. I don't know when I learned it. I don't

ROUGH DRAFT

24
09:33:46 1 know what discussion was held related to that and I

09:33:50 2 don't know -- I certainly don't know what part of his
09:33:53 3 absence was accredited to a medical leave.
09:33:56 4 Q. Okay. You're sitting here -- sitting here

09:33:58 5 today you know he was on medical leave. Right?
09:34:01 6 MR. WASSER: She hasn't even said that,
09:34:03 7 counsel. She just --
09:34:05 8 THE WITNESS: There was discussion that he

09:34:07 9 had participated in some type of medical leave. I
09:34:11 10 don't know if it was one day or if it was two days or
09:34:15 11 if it was 16 days.

09:34:16 12 BY MR. LEE:
09:34:16 13 Q. Okay.
09:34:17 14 A. I don't know anything about it other than

09:34:19 15 that.
Page 21
A0819rfa (2)
09:34:19 16 Q. Okay. So the answer to my question. I'm
09:34:21 17 going to ask the question again. Sitting here today
09:34:24 18 do you know Dr. Jadwin was on some kind of medical
09:34:26 19 leave. Right?

09:34:27 20 MR. WASSER: When?
09:34:29 21 THE WITNESS: Yeah. When I guess I would

09:34:31 22 ask you.
09:34:32 23 BY MR. LEE:
09:34:33 24 Q. When what? I'm sorry. Your attorney is

09:34:36 25 questions for you. Hold on. Let me say something.
ROUGH DRAFT

25
09:34:36 1 If you don't understand a question, please feel free
09:34:38 2 to ask me a question. Okay?
09:34:40 3 A. Okay.
09:34:41 4 Q. So what don't you understand about my
09:34:42 5 question?
09:34:42 6 A. I don't understand when -- you're asking --
09:34:47 7 you're asking me to confirm that I know that
09:34:51 8 Dr. Jadwin was on a medical leave. I don't know that

09:34:56 9 he was on a medical leave. My understanding is --
09:35:01 10 all I know is that there was a discussion about
09:35:03 11 medical leave. I don't know when it was, I don't
09:35:08 12 know if he was on it, I don't know how long it was.

09:35:11 13 I don't know if it was before or after. I don't
09:35:15 14 know.
09:35:16 15 Q. And you don't know whether it was before or

09:35:18 16 after you voted for his removal?
09:35:19 17 A. No.
09:35:20 18 MR. WASSER: And she's told you that I think

09:35:22 19 at least three times now.
Page 22
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09:35:23 20 BY MR. LEE:
09:35:23 21 Q. Do you think that's important information at

09:35:24 22 all to know? Let's just say you know -- you know
09:35:28 23 Dr. Jadwin was on medical leave. You don't know the
09:35:30 24 circumstances. Right?

09:35:31 25 A. My -- let me just say something else. I
ROUGH DRAFT

26
09:35:37 1 know that when I voted I based it on the fact that

09:35:41 2 Dr. Jadwin was not present to do his job.
09:35:48 3 Q. Regardless of the reason?
09:35:50 5 Q. And --
09:35:51 6 MR. WASSER: You keep -- Mr. Lee, if you
09:35:53 7 keep covering the same questions again I am going to
09:35:57 8 adjourn this in just a moment. You've covered it.
09:36:00 9 She's answered your question. Don't go over the same

09:36:03 10 information again or we will leave.
09:36:05 11 BY MR. LEE:
09:36:06 12 Q. So I'm going to ask you now this different

09:36:09 13 question.
09:36:10 14 When -- you know, sitting here today knowing

09:36:19 15 that he was on some kind of medical leave, if I
09:36:19 16 represent to you --
09:36:19 17 MR. WASSER: Counsel, she has not stated

09:36:21 18 that. Do not misstate her testimony. You do that
09:36:23 19 again and we are leaving this deposition.
09:36:27 20 MR. LEE: I'm recording this. Okay.

09:36:29 21 MR. WASSER: Good. Record it.
09:36:30 22 MR. LEE: Okay.
Page 23
A0819rfa (2)
09:36:31 23 MR. WASSER: Get her answers down. Pay
09:36:32 24 attention.
09:36:32 25 MR. LEE: Mr. Wasser, would appreciate it
ROUGH DRAFT

27
09:36:35 1 before you object if you'd let me finish my question.

09:36:37 2 MR. WASSER: You've answered it multiple
09:36:39 3 times.
09:36:39 4 MR. LEE: Mr. Wasser. I'm going to state it
09:36:41 5 again. I will be adjourn this deposition if you
09:36:44 6 don't let me --
09:36:44 7 MR. WASSER: Then we'll both adjourn it.
09:36:46 8 MR. LEE: Mr. Wasser, you are interrupting
09:36:47 9 me again. I'm just going to state for the record

09:36:49 10 that I will appreciate it if you let me finish the
09:36:51 11 question before you state your objections. If you'd
09:36:53 12 like to adjourn you're certainly welcome to do that,

09:36:55 13 but I request as a point of courtesy to not only
09:36:57 14 myself but also to the reporter that you let me
09:36:59 15 finish my question before you begin to speak. Do you
09:37:02 16 understand? Is that understood, Mr. Wasser? Thank
09:37:07 17 you.
09:37:07 18 BY MR. LEE:
09:37:08 19 Q. Okay. So Ms. Smith, I'll represent to you

09:37:14 20 that Dr. Jadwin was on a medical leave in 2006.
09:37:19 21 Okay? So --
09:37:21 22 MR. WASSER: How long? State a complete

09:37:23 23 representation, counsel. When was he on leave? If
09:37:25 24 you're going to make a representation make it
09:37:27 25 accurate. He was not on leave for the entire year.

ROUGH DRAFT
Page 24
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28
09:37:30 1 That's false.

2 BY MR. LEE:
09:37:31 3 Q. Ms. Smith, Mr. -- Dr. Jadwin was on medical

09:37:34 4 leave for some portion of 2006. Okay? Now --
09:37:37 5 MR. WASSER: That means a day or more.
09:37:39 6 MR. LEE: Mr. Wasser, are you objecting now?

09:37:41 7 MR. WASSER: Yes. You are not giving her
09:37:43 8 facts that she can rely on, counsel.
09:37:46 9 MR. LEE: Can you just please object and

09:37:47 10 leave it at that. I'd appreciate it.
09:37:49 11 BY MR. LEE:
09:37:50 12 Q. Okay. So Ms. Smith, Dr. Jadwin was on a

09:37:53 13 medical leave for some portion of 2006. Do you feel
09:37:56 14 that that would have changed your decision at all at
09:38:00 15 the removal meeting as to whether to vote to remove
09:38:02 16 Dr. Jadwin or not?
09:38:04 17 A. No, sir.

09:38:05 18 Q. No, sir. And why is that?
09:38:07 19 MR. WASSER: She's answered that, this is
09:38:09 20 going on six or seven times now.

09:38:12 21 THE WITNESS: Because I feel the chair needs
09:38:15 22 to be present full time to manage the department.

09:38:19 23 BY MR. LEE:
09:38:20 24 Q. Are you aware that person cannot be punished
09:38:24 25 for taking medical leave under California family

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29
09:38:26 1 rights act and the family medical leave act?
Page 25
A0819rfa (2)
09:38:29 2 A. I refer those questions that relate to
09:38:31 3 California medical leave act to H.R.
09:38:35 4 Q. Okay. You didn't think it was important to
09:38:37 5 know what the California family rights act and the
09:38:39 6 Family & Medical Leave Act would dictate in a case of
09:38:43 7 Dr. Jadwin's removal?

09:38:44 8 MR. WASSER: When?
09:38:45 9 BY MR. LEE:
09:38:46 10 Q. At the removal meeting?

09:38:51 11 A. No. I -- I voted according to the way that
09:38:56 12 I felt was in the best interests of Kern Medical
09:39:00 13 Center.
09:39:01 14 Q. Well, do you think that when you vote to
09:39:04 15 remove -- when you voted to remove Dr. Jadwin, did
09:39:08 16 you think it was important to make sure that you were
09:39:10 17 complying with the California family rights act and

09:39:13 18 the California medical leave act?
09:39:14 19 MR. WASSER: That's argumentative, counsel.
09:39:15 20 That assumes she was not complying with it. Don't
09:39:18 21 argue the law with the witness.

09:39:19 22 MR. LEE: It's a different question. I'm
09:39:20 23 asking if you thought it was important to comply with
09:39:23 24 those laws.

09:39:23 25 MR. WASSER: That assumes that there was
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30
09:39:24 1 noncompliance, counsel. That misstates the facts.

09:39:26 2 MR. LEE: No, it does not. I'm asking if
09:39:29 3 she thinks it was important.

09:39:30 4 BY MR. LEE:
09:39:30 5 Q. I'm going to ask you again Ms. Smith --
Page 26
A0819rfa (2)
6 A. Well, let me --
09:39:31 7 Q. -- did you think it was important when you

09:39:33 8 voted to remove Dr. Jadwin that -- that the removal
09:39:36 9 complied with California family rights act and the
09:39:38 10 Family Medical Leave Act?

09:39:40 11 A. I believe that it's important to abide by
09:39:43 12 all laws.
09:39:45 13 Q. Correct. Okay.
09:39:46 14 A. I am not aware that there were any laws in

09:39:50 15 question at the time of the vote.
09:39:53 16 Q. Well, were you aware of what the California
09:39:55 17 family rights act and the Family Medical Leave Act
09:39:58 18 would have dictated in Dr. Jadwin's case at the time

09:40:01 19 you voted at the removal meeting?
09:40:04 20 A. I rely on folks who are experts in those
09:40:09 21 areas to guide decisions at Kern Medical Center
09:40:12 22 related to those items.
09:40:14 23 Q. Who are they?

09:40:16 24 A. Our H.R. department, legal counsel.
09:40:19 25 Q. Okay. So did you consult or did you hear

ROUGH DRAFT

31
09:40:23 1 from legal counsel or H.R. regarding Dr. Jadwin's

09:40:28 2 medical leave rights prior to voting at the removal
09:40:31 3 meeting?
09:40:32 4 A. Personally?
09:40:32 5 Q. Yes.
09:40:33 6 A. No.
09:40:34 7 Q. Did you think to check with H.R. or legal
09:40:38 8 counsel as to compliance with all laws prior to
Page 27
A0819rfa (2)
09:40:41 9 voting to remove Dr. Jadwin at the removal meeting?
09:40:46 10 A. Legal counsel is a part of joint conference
09:40:49 11 committee.
09:40:51 12 Q. So in other words you just expected -- are

09:40:55 13 you talking about Karen Barnes?
09:40:58 14 A. Karen Barnes and/or others.

09:41:01 15 Q. Okay. Well do you recall whether Karen
09:41:03 16 Barnes was present at the removal meeting?
09:41:06 17 A. No.
09:41:06 18 Q. No?
09:41:07 19 Do you recall if any legal counsel was
09:41:10 20 present at the removal meeting?

09:41:12 21 A. I don't recall by name. My experience tells
09:41:18 22 me that there is always at least one legal counsel at
09:41:22 23 the meeting.
09:41:23 24 Q. Okay. But you have no specific recollection

09:41:24 25 one way or the other as to that removal meeting.
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32
09:41:27 1 Correct?
09:41:28 2 A. As to that meeting, no. But the attendance
09:41:32 3 roster would show that.
09:41:35 4 MR. WASSER: It's in the minutes, counsel.

09:41:38 5 BY MR. LEE:
09:41:38 6 Q. And do you recall whether the legal counsel
09:41:39 7 stood up at any point and discussed the relevant laws
09:41:43 8 that could affect -- that could be implicated by the

09:41:47 9 removal of Dr. Jadwin at any time during the removal
09:41:49 10 meeting?
09:41:54 11 A. I don't specifically recall that. That

09:41:58 12 doesn't mean it didn't happen. I just don't
Page 28
A0819rfa (2)
09:42:00 13 remember.
09:42:01 14 Q. Okay. I think the -- I'm going to represent

09:42:19 15 to you that Karen Barnes was present at the removal
09:42:21 16 meeting. Okay? Now, do you recall whether Karen
09:42:24 17 Barnes spoke at all at the removal meeting in regard

09:42:28 18 to the removal of Dr. Jadwin?
09:42:33 19 A. No.
09:42:33 20 Q. No.
09:42:34 21 Do you think it was -- would have been

09:42:42 22 important to hear from Karen Barnes as to the
09:42:45 23 applicable laws that might be implicated by
09:42:48 24 Dr. Jadwin's removal?
09:42:49 25 MR. WASSER: You already asked that,

ROUGH DRAFT

33
09:42:50 1 counsel.
09:42:53 2 BY MR. LEE:
09:42:53 3 Q. Do you understand the question?
09:42:55 4 A. Would you repeat it.

09:42:56 5 Q. Sure.
09:42:56 6 Do you think it would have been important to
09:42:58 7 hear from Ms. Barnes regarding the applicable laws at
09:43:03 8 the removal meeting with respect to Dr. Jadwin's

09:43:06 9 removal?
09:43:11 10 A. I believe that prior to presenting the
09:43:19 11 recommendations that the staff of Kern Medical Center

09:43:26 12 does their homework related to those items.
09:43:30 13 Q. You just trusted that whatever legal
09:43:33 14 compliance needed to be done was being done behind

09:43:35 15 the scenes?
Page 29
A0819rfa (2)
09:43:38 16 A. Yes.
09:43:39 17 Q. And hearing no advice from or no statements
09:43:43 18 from any legal counsel, otherwise you assumed it
09:43:46 19 would be okay to vote to remove Dr. Jadwin. Right?

09:43:49 20 A. I didn't say that I didn't hear anything. I
09:43:52 21 said I don't remember any.

09:43:54 22 Q. You don't recall.
09:43:54 23 Did you hear from Dr. Jadwin -- was
09:44:00 24 Dr. Jadwin present at the removal meeting, to your

09:44:03 25 recollection?
ROUGH DRAFT

34
09:44:04 1 A. No.
09:44:07 2 Q. Did you ever hear from Dr. Jadwin
09:44:10 3 regarding -- did you hear anything from him or see
09:44:12 4 any writing from him regarding his removal from
09:44:15 5 chair?
09:44:15 6 A. Personally?
09:44:16 7 Q. Or -- personally or otherwise.
09:44:19 8 A. No. Actually, I --

09:44:22 9 Q. Did not?
09:44:23 10 A. -- don't....
09:44:23 11 Q. Do you think that was important to hear from
09:44:29 12 Dr. Jadwin at all regarding his removal prior to your

09:44:32 13 vote?
09:44:33 14 A. Me personally?
09:44:34 15 Q. Yeah.
09:44:35 16 A. Not -- I mean, if Dr. Jadwin didn't feel it
09:44:40 17 was important enough to contact me or talk to me,
09:44:44 18 then I suppose it wasn't.

09:44:46 19 Q. How would he have -- to your understanding,
Page 30
A0819rfa (2)
09:44:48 20 how would Dr. Jadwin have known to have contacted you
09:44:51 21 prior to or at the removal meeting?

09:44:53 22 A. How would he have known to contact me?
09:44:56 23 Q. Yes.
09:44:56 24 A. Do you mean how would he get in touch with

09:44:59 25 me?
ROUGH DRAFT

35
09:44:59 1 Q. No. No. The question is how would he have

09:45:02 2 known that this removal meeting was going to occur,
09:45:06 3 how would we have known that?
09:45:07 4 MR. WASSER: It's a different question

09:45:08 5 counsel.
09:45:09 6 BY MR. LEE:
09:45:09 7 Q. To your understanding.
09:45:10 8 A. How would he have known that this removal
09:45:13 9 meeting was going to occur?

09:45:15 10 A. I have no idea.
09:45:16 11 Q. You just assumed he knew then?
09:45:18 12 A. No.
09:45:18 13 MR. WASSER: That misstates his testimony.
09:45:20 14 THE WITNESS: I don't even know what you're

09:45:22 15 talking about. I'm sorry. You're asking me if I
09:45:24 16 assumed he knew the meeting was happening?
09:45:26 17 BY MR. LEE:

09:45:27 18 Q. Well, you just testified earlier that
09:45:29 19 Dr. Jadwin didn't bother to contact you before his
09:45:32 20 removal. Correct?

21 MR. WASSER: No.
09:45:34 22 THE WITNESS: No.
Page 31
A0819rfa (2)
09:45:34 23 MR. WASSER: That's not what she said.
09:45:35 24 THE WITNESS: You asked me if Dr. Jadwin had
09:45:37 25 contacted me or I felt it was important for him to
ROUGH DRAFT

36
09:45:41 1 contact me, and I said no.

09:45:45 2 BY MR. LEE:
09:45:45 3 Q. Okay. Now, the question I asked you,

09:45:47 4 Ms. Smith, is did you think it was important to hear
09:45:48 5 from Dr. Jadwin or to see a writing from him with
09:45:52 6 respect to his removal prior to voting to remove him.
09:45:57 7 Do you want me to --
09:45:58 8 A. The answer to that question that you just
09:45:59 9 asked is no.

09:46:01 10 Q. It wasn't important for him to know or --
09:46:03 11 MR. WASSER: That's a different question
09:46:04 12 than you just asked her.

09:46:05 13 MR. LEE: Mr. Wasser, I'm going to ask you
09:46:07 14 again.
09:46:07 15 MR. WASSER: No.
09:46:07 16 MR. LEE: Excuse me, excuse me, Mr. Wasser.
09:46:09 17 You've interrupted me yet again, I'm in the middle of

09:46:12 18 a question and you've continued to interrupt me,
09:46:13 19 please let me finish what I'm saying before you begin
09:46:15 20 to speak. Can you do that?
09:46:17 21 MR. WASSER: Don't misstate her testimony.
09:46:18 22 MR. LEE: I will -- thank you Mr. Wasser for

09:46:20 23 your objection, but I'm going to ask that you refrain
09:46:21 24 from objecting until I finish. Can you do that?

ROUGH DRAFT
Page 32
A0819rfa (2)

37
09:46:26 1 MR. LEE: Ms. Wasser, if you interrupt me

09:46:28 2 again I will adjourn this meeting. I've warned you
09:46:30 3 several times that when I'm speaking you cannot

09:46:31 4 interrupt me. Is that understood?
09:46:34 6 MR. LEE: Mr. Wasser do you understand?

09:46:38 7 MR. WASSER: You have a question to ask,
09:46:40 8 counsel, ask it.
09:46:40 9 MR. LEE: Mr. Wasser I'm going -- I'm

09:46:42 10 warning you that if you interrupt me before I finish
09:46:44 11 my question on the record and you therefore prevent
09:46:48 12 me from creating a record here and the court reporter

09:46:50 13 from recording a clean record. If you do it one more
09:46:53 14 time I will adjourn this. You are obstructing. You
09:46:55 15 need to save your objections until after I've
09:46:57 16 finished my question. You don't even know what my
09:46:59 17 question is before you object. Is that clear

09:47:01 18 Mr. Wasser? I'm going to take that as a yes.
09:47:06 19 BY MR. LEE:
09:47:06 20 Q. Okay. Ms. Smith, the question I asked you

09:47:10 21 is did you think it was important for Dr. Jadwin to
09:47:12 22 know that -- did you think it was important for you
09:47:15 23 to know or to hear from Dr. Jadwin what his side of
09:47:19 24 the story was before you voted to remove him?
09:47:21 25 MR. WASSER: You asked her that.

ROUGH DRAFT

38
09:47:22 1 THE WITNESS: My answer was yes.
Page 33
A0819rfa (2)
09:47:23 2 BY MR. LEE:
09:47:24 3 Q. Okay.
09:47:24 4 A. When you asked the question the last time --
09:47:26 5 Q. Okay. Ms. Smith, why did you think it was

09:47:28 6 not important to hear from him and to know his side
09:47:30 7 of the story?

09:47:34 8 A. I -- I indicated that I think it's important
09:47:37 9 for a chair to be present to manage his department.
09:47:43 10 He was not present; therefore, I voted accordingly.

09:47:47 11 Q. That's all you needed to know?
09:47:49 12 A. That's true.
09:47:50 13 Q. The fact that he was absent is all you

09:47:54 14 needed to know?
09:47:55 15 A. Yes.
09:47:55 16 Q. And were you aware that when Dr. Jadwin was
09:47:58 17 going -- was removed from chair it was also going to

09:48:02 18 result in a significant pay cut and a change in terms
09:48:05 19 of his contract?
09:48:08 20 A. I did not make it my business to know other
09:48:10 21 people's salaries.

09:48:12 22 Q. That's not the question I asked, Ms. Smith.
09:48:14 23 A. Okay. No. The answer is no.
09:48:17 24 Q. You didn't know that.

09:48:18 25 You thought -- so did you think Dr. Jadwin
ROUGH DRAFT

39
09:48:20 1 was going to continue with the same rate of

09:48:22 2 compensation with the same job duties after he was
09:48:25 3 removed from chair then of his department?

09:48:27 4 A. Frankly, I didn't think about that part.
09:48:32 5 Q. You didn't think about the implications of
Page 34
A0819rfa (2)
09:48:33 6 removing Dr. Jadwin from his chair of the department?
09:48:36 7 MR. WASSER: That's not what she said,

09:48:37 8 Counsel. She said she didn't think about that part.
09:48:40 9 Now you're trying to expand it into a different
09:48:42 10 answer. She didn't say that.

09:48:44 11 BY MR. LEE:
09:48:44 12 Q. Do you understand my question?
09:48:46 13 A. Do you want to repeat it?
09:48:48 14 MR. LEE: Madam Reporter, could you please

09:48:50 15 repeat my question for the deponent, please.
09:48:52 16 (Requested portion of record read.)
09:49:07 17 THE WITNESS: No.
09:49:08 18 BY MR. LEE:

09:49:09 19 Q. You did not.
09:49:11 20 Besides Dr. Jadwin's physical unavailability
09:49:29 21 and absence from the hospital, what other basis did
09:49:33 22 you hear about at the removal meeting to -- that

09:49:37 23 dictated -- that persuaded you to vote in favor of
09:49:41 24 removing Dr. Jadwin?
09:49:42 25 MR. WASSER: Counsel, you have asked that

ROUGH DRAFT

40
09:49:43 1 now -- we're over a dozen times on this. We're not

09:49:46 2 going to continue to respond to the same question
09:49:48 3 over and over again. She's covered it.
09:49:51 4 BY MR. LEE:
09:49:51 5 Q. So -- do you understand the question? Do
09:49:56 6 you want me to have the reporter read it back then?

09:49:59 7 MR. WASSER: We're not going to answer the
09:50:00 8 question again, Counsel. That's something else.
Page 35
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09:50:04 9 BY MR. LEE:
09:50:04 10 Q. Ms. Smith, are you going to answer the
09:50:06 11 question or not?
09:50:06 12 MR. WASSER: I'm instructing her not to

09:50:07 13 answer, Counsel. Is that clear to you? She's not
09:50:09 14 answering the same question yet again. Move on.

09:50:12 15 MR. LEE: What's the basis --
09:50:13 16 MR. WASSER: You've covered it ad nauseam.
09:50:16 17 We're standing on the record the way it stands.

09:50:18 18 BY MR. LEE:
09:50:18 19 Q. I'm going to give you an admonition,
09:50:20 20 Ms. Smith.

09:50:20 21 MR. WASSER: We'll stipulate to the
09:50:21 22 admonition, counsel. Move on.
09:50:23 23 MR. LEE: I think she needs to hear it just
09:50:25 24 once, if you don't mind, Mr. Wasser. The admonition

09:50:28 25 is this: Your attorney's instructing you not to
ROUGH DRAFT

41
09:50:30 1 answer. It's an improper basis for an instruction

09:50:32 2 not to answer. Ask -- the objection that the
09:50:36 3 question's been asked and answered is not a proper
09:50:38 4 basis for instruction not to answer. Mr. Wasser

09:50:40 5 knows that. He's instructed you not to answer. We
09:50:43 6 disagree with his grounds. We're going to move to
09:50:45 7 compel. We're going to do that immediately and we
09:50:47 8 are going to seek the reconvening of this deposition

09:50:50 9 and the imposition of sanctions on you and/or your
09:50:53 10 attorney.
09:50:54 11 Are you going to follow your attorney's

09:50:55 12 instruction not to my answer my question?
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09:50:59 13 MR. WASSER: We're going to leave now.
09:51:00 14 We're off the record.

09:51:01 15 MR. LEE: Okay. And let's call judge -- and
09:51:04 16 actually, let's not do that. Let's call Judge
09:51:07 17 Goldner now and deal with this.

09:51:08 18 MR. LEE: I'm not going to go off the record
09:51:10 19 until you adjourn.
09:51:11 20 MR. WASSER: Fine. Your going to adjourn
09:51:13 21 and let's call her.

09:51:14 22 MR. LEE: Okay. We are off the record to
09:51:18 23 speak with the court and to seek a ruling on this
09:51:20 24 right now. It's 9:51 a.m.
09:51:22 25 MR. WASSER: And we're going to need the

ROUGH DRAFT

42
09:51:23 1 reporter for this conference because she's going to

09:51:25 2 need to read back the multiple questions and answers
09:51:28 3 on the same subject.
09:51:29 4 MR. LEE: Sure. That's not the problem. We

09:51:31 5 are off the record at 9:52 a.m.
10:07:01 6 (Recess taken.)
10:07:01 7 MR. LEE: Okay. We are back on the record
10:07:02 8 at 10:07.
10:07:04 9 MR. LEE: Mr. Wasser, and I have agreed that
10:07:06 10 we are going to continue this deposition but not on
10:07:09 11 the topic of the removal meeting but on other topics

10:07:12 12 and we will -- we will submit that to the court for a
10:07:18 13 liti- -- motion in litigation for the court's
10:07:20 14 determination as to whether or not we're -- the

10:07:23 15 deposition should continue or not with respect to the
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10:07:26 16 removal meeting. Is that correct, Mr. Wasser?
10:07:28 17 MR. WASSER: We're going to ask the judge
10:07:30 18 whether you've covered the questions you've covered
10:07:33 19 or get to keep asking them or not. The removal

10:07:37 20 meeting is not the dispute. The dispute is over your
10:07:40 21 repetitive asking Ms. Smith for the reasons for her
10:07:44 22 vote and whether she considered other things and
10:07:46 23 she's answered that definitively and clearly. I've
10:07:50 24 lost count, five, six, seven, eight times. That's

10:07:52 25 the issue.
ROUGH DRAFT

43
10:07:53 1 MR. LEE: Mr. Wasser, we don't need to get
10:07:55 2 into it now. We'll save that for the judge.
10:07:56 3 MR. WASSER: The point is it's not the
10:07:57 4 removal meeting. It's that specific question.
10:07:59 5 MR. LEE: The point is, Mr. Wasser, is we've

10:08:01 6 agreed that this deposition will not continue on that
10:08:03 7 topic for now pending a court order. Is that
10:08:06 8 correct?
10:08:06 9 MR. WASSER: Yes. That's correct.
10:08:07 10 MR. LEE: That's the point.
10:08:08 11 BY MR. LEE:
10:08:09 12 Q. Okay, Ms. Smith, are you familiar with the

10:08:12 13 term PCC?
10:08:19 14 A. If I'm not mistaken, that was Dr. Jadwin's
10:08:22 15 term and he used it to designate the -- the chart

10:08:31 16 copy. I think it -- it was product chart copy, I
10:08:37 17 think, for the blood usage.
10:08:40 18 Q. Okay. What's your -- what's your term for

10:08:43 19 it?
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10:08:44 20 A. So --
10:08:45 21 Q. I'm sorry.

10:08:46 22 A. You know, we have -- I don't -- you know, we
10:08:52 23 have another name for it now and it's something that
10:08:55 24 the computer -- it's spit out by the computer when

10:09:00 25 the blood is -- is processed in the lab and the
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44
10:09:04 1 computer company who -- I can't remember the name but

10:09:08 2 it's basically McKesson has named it in their system
10:09:12 3 already and it's some name.
10:09:15 4 Q. Okay.
10:09:15 5 A. I don't know.
10:09:16 6 Q. But you had understand what you mean when
10:09:19 7 you say product chart copy?
10:09:19 8 A. I do understand, yes.
10:09:21 9 Q. So as I understand it product chart copy is

10:09:23 10 some kind of important that needs to be filled out at
10:09:26 11 the time of administration of blood?
10:09:27 12 A. That's correct.

10:09:28 13 Q. Okay. And it's -- what is the purpose of
10:09:31 14 the product chart? Why would you take the time to
10:09:33 15 fill out PCCs?
10:09:36 16 A. When blood is being administered there are
10:09:39 17 certain legal requirements and the -- and the product

10:09:44 18 chart copy sort of is a compendium of those
10:09:49 19 requirements for checking the blood and writing down
10:09:53 20 the numbers and so forth.

10:09:55 21 Q. So it's a form of legal compliance?
10:09:57 22 A. It's a form of compliance with -- as you
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A0819rfa (2)
10:10:05 23 know, in hospitals we have lots of different
10:10:07 24 compliance issues. It's a -- it's a compliance that
10:10:11 25 the joint commission requires some of the elements on
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45
10:10:15 1 the product chart copy and a lot of that depends on

10:10:18 2 your hospital policy.
10:10:20 3 Q. Are you aware if there's -- whether there

10:10:23 4 are any state laws or regulations that would dictate
10:10:26 5 or regulate the filling outs of these so-called PCCs?
10:10:31 6 A. I believe the per Cap -- what does that
10:10:38 7 stand for? California --
10:10:39 8 Q. College of American pathologists?
10:10:42 9 A. College of American pathologists

10:10:45 10 certification of the lab. They probably have some --
10:10:47 11 they have some of the requirements, I guess you could
10:10:50 12 call it, legal, and as I indicated joint commission

10:10:53 13 has some requirements related to administration of
10:10:57 14 blood.
10:10:59 15 Q. Okay. And do you think -- what's the
10:11:05 16 rational, to your understanding, what's the rational
10:11:08 17 behind the laws requiring PCCs? I mean is it just

10:11:12 18 bureaucratic --
10:11:13 19 A. The law doesn't require PCC as such. It

10:11:16 20 requires the documentation of certain elements that
10:11:20 21 you validated when you you're administering the
10:11:24 22 blood.
10:11:24 23 Q. Why would -- to your mind, why is it
10:11:26 24 necessary to validate certain elements when you
10:11:30 25 administer blood?

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Page 40
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46
10:11:33 1 A. So that the correct blood -- so that you can

10:11:35 2 verify that you're giving the correct -- blood is
10:11:37 3 considered a medication and you need to validate that

10:11:39 4 you're giving the correct blood..
10:11:41 5 Q. Blood is also -- it could potentially be
10:11:46 6 considered a hazardous or toxic substance. Is that

10:11:49 7 correct?
10:11:49 8 A. Certainly it is.
10:11:50 9 Q. So the handling of blood is very dangerous

10:11:54 10 potentially?
10:11:55 11 A. Handling of blood is critical.
10:11:57 12 Q. And the administration of blood could also

10:11:59 13 potentially lead to morbidity or mortality if it's
10:12:04 14 incorrectly done. Correct?
10:12:06 15 A. As with other medications, correct.
10:12:09 16 Q. So blood administration is not something you
10:12:11 17 take lightly. It's a very important patient care

10:12:14 18 issue. Correct?
10:12:17 20 Q. Okay. And do you feel that PCCs help

10:12:23 21 promote the safer administration of blood?
10:12:33 22 A. I feel that PCCs are -- no, I don't think

10:12:35 23 that PCC has anything to do with safe administration
10:12:40 24 of blood. That's a person -- that's user issue. PCC
10:12:45 25 offers a way of -- of consistent documentation of

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47
10:12:51 1 what the administering people do -- did.
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10:12:55 2 Q. Well, what are the steps involved in filling
10:13:01 3 out a PCC?
10:13:02 4 A. The steps involved in filling out a PCC are
10:13:07 5 reflective of the process that was used in

10:13:10 6 administering the blood, i.e. two people check the
10:13:17 7 blood to make sure you have the right blood from the
10:13:22 8 blood bank, the patient's vital signs are documented
10:13:25 9 on the record to include the blood pressure, the
10:13:33 10 fact -- after the transfusion the fact of whether or

10:13:35 11 not the patient had any kind of blood reaction or
10:13:39 12 reaction to the blood it is documented.
10:13:42 13 Q. This is all document on PCC?

10:13:44 14 A. It's -- it's -- at that point in time I
10:13:47 15 believe the form was called a PCC but PCC is not the
10:13:51 16 legal name of any kind of a form.
10:13:54 17 Q. I understand.
10:13:54 18 So you were filling out this PCC -- you were
10:13:58 19 recording -- you said the blood pressure, I believe?
10:14:01 20 A. They're several elements. I can't remember
10:14:03 21 them all.

10:14:03 22 Q. Sure.
10:14:04 23 A. And I wasn't ever doing it. It's the nurses
10:14:07 24 on the units that are doing it.

10:14:09 25 Q. Okay. But to the best of your recollection
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48
10:14:11 1 you were saying that you record the blood pressure of
10:14:13 2 the patient?
10:14:13 3 A. Yes.
10:14:14 4 Q. On the PCC and then --
10:14:16 5 A. The unit number.
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10:14:18 6 Q. Of the blood being administered?
10:14:19 7 A. Correct.
10:14:20 8 Q. And then I understand there's a step at some
10:14:22 9 point where two nurses have to sign the PCCs?
10:14:26 10 A. That's correct. It takes two nurses to

10:14:29 11 double-check the blood unit against the numbers that
10:14:33 12 are already provided and so forth.
10:14:35 13 Q. Um-hmm.
10:14:35 14 A. The name of the patient, all that.

10:14:37 15 Q. So it's like a form of cross verification,
10:14:41 16 then?
10:14:42 17 A. Correct.
10:14:42 18 Q. Make sure the right blood is going to the

10:14:45 19 right patient?
10:14:45 20 A. Correct. It's a documentation that that
10:14:47 21 process has taken place.
10:14:48 22 Q. And you have two nurses involved because
10:14:50 23 it's two pairs of eyes in ensuring that --

10:14:53 24 A. Right.
10:14:53 25 Q. -- that the right blood is going to right

ROUGH DRAFT

49
10:14:55 1 person.
10:14:55 2 A. It could be a nurse and a physician. It
10:14:58 3 doesn't have to be two nurses.
10:14:59 4 Q. So two people?

10:15:00 5 A. Two licensed individuals, uh-huh.
10:15:02 6 Q. So after these two individuals -- these two
10:15:04 7 licensed individuals sign their signatures on the PCC
10:15:08 8 to verify that the process of cross verification has
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10:15:12 9 occurred what happens next with the PCC to your
10:15:14 10 recollection?
10:15:16 11 A. We put it in our chart. It's placed in the
10:15:22 12 patient record so that for all time to come if anyone

10:15:26 13 wants to look and see whether or not that patient
10:15:29 14 received blood that will be in the chart.

10:15:32 15 Q. Um-hmm.
10:15:32 16 What were your -- you were -- you said you
10:15:35 17 were the chief nursing officer. What was the duties
10:15:38 18 of the chief nursing officer with respect to the
10:15:42 19 PCCs?
10:15:44 20 A. My duties with relationship to that are

10:15:48 21 similar to my responsibilities with other items and
10:15:51 22 that is since it was a document that nurses document
10:15:57 23 on I try to make it my responsibility to make sure
10:16:02 24 that those documents are as user friendly, compliant

10:16:06 25 with the regulations that we're looking at at the
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50
10:16:11 1 time and -- and audited to make sure that they're

10:16:20 2 being completed correctly and so forth.
10:16:23 3 Q. When you said that you wanted to make sure
10:16:24 4 that the PCCs or the process, filling out the PCCs
10:16:29 5 handling them or whatever that's all complying with
10:16:32 6 the regulations that something you checked with legal
10:16:34 7 counsel on or is that something you were able to do
10:16:37 8 yourself?
10:16:37 9 A. No. We met with the blood -- there's a
10:16:39 10 blood committee at Kern Medical Center and there's a
10:16:42 11 person at Kern Medical Center who actually is very

10:16:45 12 helpful and has been helpful throughout the process
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10:16:51 13 in making sure that our policy and the form and so
10:16:56 14 forth was compliant with the regulations.

10:16:58 15 Q. Do you know that person's name?
10:16:59 16 A. Michelle Burris.
10:17:01 17 Q. B U RR I.S.?
10:17:04 19 Q. She's the director of blood bank -- not the
10:17:06 20 director. What is that?
10:17:08 21 A. I'm not sure exactly what her title is, but
10:17:10 22 yes for all intents and purposes she runs the blood
10:17:13 23 bank.
10:17:15 24 Q. And what were your job duties, if any, as
10:17:18 25 chief nursing officer with respect to the blood bank?

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51
10:17:23 1 A. I had -- I have no responsibilities for the

10:17:28 2 blood bank.
10:17:29 3 Q. And you said earlier one of your job duties
10:17:31 4 as chief nursing officer was to audit the --

10:17:36 5 A. To make certain that audits were completed.
10:17:39 6 Q. Right. To make sure that the PCCs were
10:17:41 7 being filled out correctly, blood was being
10:17:44 8 administered correctly. Is that correct?

10:17:46 9 A. Yes.
10:17:46 10 Q. Okay. Now, how did you go about auditing --
10:17:52 11 conducting these audits? What were the steps you

10:17:54 12 followed?
10:17:55 13 A. The audits were conducted -- well, we had
10:17:58 14 owe, you know, various stages but one of our goals
10:18:03 15 was to make certain that there were charts that were
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10:18:06 16 selected. Then the we -- we had a person from your
10:18:14 17 quality management department who went through those
10:18:18 18 charts and performed audits on the documents that
10:18:24 19 were contained in the charts related to the

10:18:26 20 administration of blood.
10:18:29 21 Q. Do you know who that person was?

10:18:31 22 A. Alice Hevle.
10:18:36 23 Q. And how often do you, to your recollection,
10:18:39 24 how often were these audits conducted?

10:18:41 25 A. I don't recall. It could either be monthly
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52
10:18:45 1 or quarterly. We have audits that are done at
10:18:49 2 various time frames.
10:18:51 3 Q. And do you recall what the findings of those
10:18:53 4 audits were?
10:18:55 5 A. I could find documentation that would show

10:18:57 6 you that but I don't know specific numbers.
10:19:00 7 Q. Well, can you estimate how much
10:19:03 8 compliance -- was she trying to measure percent

10:19:05 9 compliance?
10:19:06 10 A. She was -- she was measuring percent
10:19:09 11 compliance with the documentation requirements.
10:19:13 12 Q. Which you're distinguishing that from legal

10:19:16 13 requirements and regulatory requirements. Is that
10:19:21 14 it?
10:19:21 15 A. Well, if you've had any experience with

10:19:24 16 patient care sometimes you know that we struggle to
10:19:29 17 reach 100 percent compliance on documentation,
10:19:33 18 although the task may have been done correctly. So

10:19:38 19 we're always looking to make sure that the
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10:19:41 20 documentation is 100 percent reflective of the task
10:19:45 21 being done.

10:19:46 22 Q. Well, how do you know the task was done
10:19:48 23 correctly if the documentation was incorrect?
10:19:52 24 A. You don't cement by -- by verbal

10:19:57 25 conversations with folks and going back and looking
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53
10:20:02 1 at the process to see whether or not there were any

10:20:06 2 adverse effects.
10:20:08 3 Q. But one of the purposes of the documentation
10:20:11 4 is to evidence that the process occurred correctly.

10:20:15 5 Is that correct?
10:20:18 7 Q. Okay. Like in other words what you're
10:20:20 8 saying is that if the documentation's correct it
10:20:23 9 doesn't necessarily mean that the process was

10:20:25 10 incorrect.
10:20:25 11 A. That's true.
10:20:27 12 Q. About how about the other way around, if the

10:20:29 13 process was done incorrectly do you think the
10:20:31 14 documentation reflect it was done correctly, the

10:20:34 15 opposite?
10:20:35 16 A. Hopefully not.
10:20:36 17 Q. That would be a form of fraud. Right?

10:20:37 18 A. That's true.
10:20:38 19 Q. So you would expect that people were being
10:20:40 20 hon of the and that if the process was unincorrectly

10:20:42 21 the documentation would also indicate that. Correct?
10:20:48 22 A. Well, I guess you could make that
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10:20:55 23 assumption. In this particular case, for instance,
10:20:58 24 if there were not two signatures on the form, that
10:21:04 25 isn't documentation -- it's document -- it's evidence
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54
10:21:09 1 that the form was not completed correctly. It's not
10:21:13 2 100 percent correct in that two people didn't check
10:21:16 3 the blood.

10:21:17 4 Q. So it's like --
10:21:18 5 A. There may have been two people there, one of
10:21:20 6 them forgot to sign.
10:21:24 7 Q. On the other hand it could indicate that
10:21:24 8 only one person was there and did not cross verify
10:21:27 9 the blood with another person?

10:21:29 10 A. It certainly could be interpreted that way.
10:21:32 11 Q. So the documentation is helpful in that
10:21:35 12 regard in the accepts that if it doesn't -- you know

10:21:37 13 the term false positive, false negative. Right?
10:21:40 14 A. Not with relationship to documentation but I
10:21:44 15 know the term.
10:21:44 16 Q. The concept?
10:21:45 17 A. Yes.
10:21:46 18 Q. It's kind of akin do that. You could have
10:21:49 19 documents indicating a problem it could be a false

10:21:51 20 positive but you're not likely -- never mind.
10:21:54 21 A. Whatever.
10:21:55 22 Q. I'm stretching that a little too far.

10:21:58 23 Okay. Did you have -- did you fine the PCCs
10:22:06 24 to be flawed?
10:22:11 25 A. Well, the process was flawed from the

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55
10:22:14 1 standpoint of when it was initially started the --

10:22:24 2 the blood -- and I don't know how much detail you
10:22:27 3 want me to get into here, but the unit of blood

10:22:31 4 contained -- had a paper on it and it was the PCC or
10:22:36 5 whatever it was called.
10:22:37 6 Q. Um-hmm.
10:22:38 7 A. But it was -- it was a duplicate paper so it
10:22:41 8 wasn't just one copy of it, it was two.
10:22:45 9 Q. It was a carbon copy. Right?

10:22:46 10 A. Yeah. I think they were both printed out on
10:22:51 11 the computer at the same time for -- I have no idea
10:22:52 12 why. It was just part of the system. So we worked

10:22:55 13 diligently with the blood bank in order to get that
10:22:57 14 what I considered a major flaw corrected. What
10:23:00 15 was -- what would happen with that would be that one
10:23:05 16 of the -- the nurse was supposed to tear off one of
10:23:10 17 the copies, document on that, leave the other copy on

10:23:14 18 the blood until the blood was transfused and then
10:23:17 19 throw it away. And what was happening was that
10:23:21 20 consistently the nurses couldn't get it through their

10:23:25 21 head that they could actually throw away a document.
10:23:30 22 So they would continually put a blank document in the

10:23:34 23 chart.
10:23:36 24 Q. Making it appear that the PCC was not filled
10:23:39 25 out?
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56
10:23:39 1 A. Correct.
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10:23:41 2 Q. And so that was -- that was leading to all
10:23:44 3 sorts of indications that PCC procedure wasn't being
10:23:47 4 followed, that therefore potentially blood was not
10:23:50 5 being administered correctly. Right?

10:23:53 6 A. That was -- that was actually Dr. Jadwin's
10:23:56 7 perception.
10:23:57 8 Q. I see. So to your understanding
10:23:59 9 Dr. Jadwin's concerns -- he expressed many concerns
10:24:02 10 about the PCCs not being filled out correctly. Is

10:24:06 11 that right?
10:24:06 12 A. His biggest concern from my -- he did his
10:24:09 13 own audits from what I could tell and I'm not sure
10:24:13 14 what his process was. I have no idea why he didn't
10:24:18 15 use the data that was collected by our quality
10:24:21 16 department. He insisted on doing his own.
10:24:25 17 Q. Well how did he do that?

10:24:26 18 A. I have no idea. I tell you to this day I
10:24:29 19 have no idea how he found forms and what he was
10:24:33 20 auditing.
10:24:34 21 Q. So he somehow got ahold of the PCCs?

10:24:39 22 A. Correct.
10:24:39 23 Q. Which were actually according to you they
10:24:42 24 were stored in the patient's charts, the medical

10:24:42 25 charts?
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57
10:24:42 1 A. They were stored in the patient charts.

10:24:44 2 That was part of the discussions that we had.
10:24:46 3 Q. So he -- so I mean did you ever -- you never

10:24:50 4 found out how he got them. Right?
10:24:52 5 A. You know, if I knew at the time I certainly
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10:24:54 6 don't remember now. I have no idea whether he would
10:24:58 7 call charts down -- I really don't know.

10:25:01 8 Q. Just don't know. That's fine so one way or
10:25:03 9 another he got a copy of the PCCs from the patient
10:25:06 10 charts and then would he look at them to see if they

10:25:09 11 were fill out correctly, independently?
10:25:12 12 A. And do his own audits.
10:25:14 13 Q. Do his own audit and he would come to the
10:25:17 14 conclusion I see well X 91 PCCs are not filmed out

10:25:21 15 correctly based upon my review. To your
10:25:24 16 understanding?
10:25:24 17 A. To my understanding, yes.
10:25:25 18 Q. And then he would contact you I assume and

10:25:28 19 say well I found a bunch of PCC that were
10:25:31 20 noncompliant?
10:25:31 21 A. I was one of the ones I think he contacted.
10:25:34 22 I think -- yeah. Well, I know he contacted me via an
10:25:40 23 interoffice memo or something.

10:25:42 24 Q. Sure.
10:25:42 25 A. And it probably was like months -- when I

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58
10:25:47 1 would get memos from him, it related to PCCs that

10:25:51 2 were from many months prior.
10:25:56 3 Q. Very old PCCs?
10:25:58 4 A. Correct.
10:26:01 5 Q. Now, you said that you believe Dr. Jadwin
10:26:05 6 was reviewing the wrong sets of PCCs.
10:26:10 7 A. I believe there's a possibility that some of
10:26:12 8 haze data -- I'm not saying all of them but I believe
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10:26:16 9 there's a possibility that some of the blank copies
10:26:19 10 were being put in the charts examine they were being
10:26:21 11 reviewed.
10:26:22 12 Q. Let -- when you say blank, do you mean

10:26:23 13 completely blank or just partially?
10:26:26 14 A. Pretty much blank. Some of them were blank.

10:26:28 15 Q. Do you recall Dr. Jadwin contacting you
10:26:30 16 regarding PCCs being largely blank?
10:26:35 17 A. Well, I remember him sending me memos saying

10:26:41 18 here's, you know, samples of PCCs.
10:26:44 19 Q. So he would say -- I mean sorry?
10:26:47 20 A. Some of them were partially blank. Some of

10:26:49 21 them were completely blank.
10:26:51 22 Q. I see. So you recall that he was raising a
10:26:53 23 concern about some PCCs being completely blank?
10:26:56 24 A. Um-hmm.
10:26:57 25 Q. And you believe that these were the wrong --
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59
10:26:59 1 the PCC copies that should have been thrown away but
10:27:02 2 then somehow they ended up in Dr. Jadwin's hands and
10:27:05 3 he's that I go they're not even filling them out?
10:27:07 4 A. Correct.
10:27:08 5 Q. And in reality if you look at the correct
10:27:10 6 PCC they were filled out correctly?
10:27:12 7 A. When our quality auditor was doing the
10:27:14 8 audits their data was considerably different, as I

10:27:18 9 recall, from Dr. Jadwin's. And we, you know, we
10:27:23 10 showed that data at that our quality meetings all the
10:27:27 11 time.
10:27:27 12 Q. You say the quality auditor. Is that Alice
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10:27:31 13 Helvie?
10:27:31 14 A. Yes.
10:27:32 15 Q. Do you recall how many charts or how many
10:27:33 16 PCC /-Z were generally selected by Ms. Helvie for
10:27:37 17 audit?
10:27:39 18 A. She is quality department according to
10:27:40 19 joining commission there was a certain number that
10:27:43 20 you audit and I don't know that number.
10:27:45 21 Q. No basis for you to even estimate it.

10:27:48 22 Right? Well?
10:27:50 23 A. Well there would be no purpose for me to do
10:27:53 24 that now. I just don't owe it's a certain percentage
10:27:56 25 ever month -- a month or a year or something.

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60
10:28:01 1 Q. Okay. Are you -- who was -- was anybody

10:28:04 2 looking over Alice Hevle's shoulders to see that she
10:28:07 3 was conducting her audits rigorous will I?
10:28:10 4 A. The quality -- yeah. She had a -- the

10:28:14 5 quality department does that.
10:28:15 6 Q. Okay so. Her boss is in the quality
10:28:17 7 department?
10:28:18 8 A. Yeah.
10:28:18 9 Q. They were /W-FPG her supervising her making
10:28:20 10 sure she was conducting the audits?
10:28:22 11 A. Right.
10:28:23 12 Q. Correctly?
10:28:23 13 A. Plus she reported her data to, negotiate
10:28:27 14 shall 15 or 20 nurse managers who /S* you don't want

10:28:31 15 to be in a room with 15 or 20 nurse managers if you
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10:28:34 16 haven't done a rigorous audit because they'll get
10:28:37 17 you.
10:28:39 18 Q. Yeah. I can imagine.
10:28:39 19 Did you ever have any -- did you ever tell
10:28:44 20 Dr. Jadwin your idea that perhaps he's reviewing the
10:28:49 21 blank PCC copies that should have been thrown away
10:28:52 22 but were somehow ending up in had I hands?
10:28:55 23 A. I attempted to have several discussions with
10:28:57 24 him related to the entire process.

10:29:01 25 Q. You say attempt. So it was -- they were
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61
10:29:03 1 unsuccessful?
10:29:04 2 A. Dr. Jadwin was not really willing to listen
10:29:06 3 to anybody's ideas very much, specifically mine. I
10:29:12 4 don't know about anybody else but he -- he wanted it
10:29:16 5 his way.

10:29:17 6 Q. Okay. Well, what was the idea that you
10:29:20 7 proposed to him that he refused to listen to?
10:29:23 8 A. Well, the major discussion -- well there,

10:29:26 9 were two -- there were two things. One, we had to
10:29:31 10 work on a way to get rid of the additional copy so
10:29:34 11 that there -- there wasn't an opportunity for the
10:29:36 12 nurses to put this blank copy in the charts. We

10:29:41 13 worked actually with the software company and
10:29:43 14 eventually were able to do that. I'm not sure if it
10:29:47 15 was during the time -- it was -- it was during

10:29:51 16 Dr. Jadwin's absence.
10:29:53 17 Q. I see.
10:29:56 18 A. So we ended up with only -- what we call owe

10:29:59 19 he /AOE what they were calling product chart copy at
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10:30:03 20 the time.
10:30:03 21 Q. We can use your term if you like?

10:30:05 22 A. I don't even know the term we call it now
10:30:07 23 that that's fine.
10:30:08 24 Q. PCCs fine.

10:30:10 25 A. We were then able to remove that -- the
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62
10:30:14 1 blood container contains the appropriate information.

10:30:16 2 We didn't have to have a paper on it. They remove
10:30:20 3 that, they document it, they put it in the chart.
10:30:23 4 The other -- so we had a major discussion ongoing on

10:30:26 5 how to get rid of that extra copy and Michelle Burris
10:30:30 6 actually worked really, really well with me with the
10:30:34 7 software company to have that actually become a
10:30:37 8 reality.
10:30:39 9 The second issue was the location of where

10:30:42 10 the blood -- where the product chart copy should
10:30:46 11 be -- should be stored.
10:30:48 12 Q. Um-hmm.
10:30:49 13 A. And that was a discussion should it be in
10:30:53 14 the patient record in should it be in Dr. Jadwin's

10:30:56 15 office or department somewhere. The original.
10:30:59 16 Q. Let me just back one one second just to make
10:31:01 17 sure I understand. So the first issue that you were

10:31:03 18 raising with Dr. Jadwin that he was not very
10:31:05 19 receptive to was figure out how to get /REUT of the
10:31:09 20 blank?
10:31:10 21 A. Correct.
10:31:10 22 Q. Copy, PCC that should be thrown away. So
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10:31:13 23 you proposed to him -- what did you propose to him
10:31:16 24 and what did he reject?
10:31:18 25 A. Well, I didn't know what to propose because
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63
10:31:21 1 at the time it was a -- we were sort of stuck with

10:31:24 2 this software.
10:31:26 3 Q. Um-hmm?
10:31:27 4 A. That just did it that way. So what Michelle
10:31:32 5 and I eventually propose /-D --
10:31:36 6 Q. To Dr. Jadwin?
10:31:37 7 A. Well, I can't remember if that was during
10:31:39 8 the time Dr. Jadwin was still there or if it was
10:31:41 9 subsequent during his absences.

10:31:43 10 But we actually -- Michelle worked with
10:31:49 11 the -- with the software company and we were able to
10:31:53 12 get it transitioned so that it only -- we only ended

10:31:57 13 up with a single sheet of paper. So we could
10:32:00 14 document on that sheet of paper.
10:32:02 15 Q. . So you didn't actually propose, you know,
10:32:05 16 the solution or --
10:32:07 17 A. Well, the solution -- we always knew the

10:32:09 18 solution was to have a single sheet of paper.
10:32:12 19 Q. Right.
10:32:13 20 A. What we had to do was work with the software
10:32:15 21 company to have it be that way.
10:32:17 22 Q. Okay. I guess /HRA I'm getting at is

10:32:19 23 earlier you had said that you went to Dr. Jadwin with
10:32:21 24 several ideas of yours and he just -- he wasn't /RE
10:32:25 25 sip tiff?

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64
10:32:26 1 A. No.
10:32:27 2 Q. This one of these ideas?
10:32:29 3 A. Yes. One of ideas was -- well, one of the

10:32:31 4 discussions how do we get rid of that extra copy that
10:32:36 5 appears to be in the charts that's blank all the time
10:32:39 6 and confusing people. I would assume that if it

10:32:44 7 confused him it would have confused anybody that
10:32:46 8 picked up a chart that looked like this blood should
10:32:48 9 have been administered and here's a blank piece of

10:32:51 10 paper.
10:32:51 11 Q. I guess what I'm asking can you describe the
10:32:53 12 conversation you had with him where?

10:32:55 13 A. Word for word.
10:32:55 14 Q. Not word for word but just what did you
10:32:57 15 propose to him and then how did he respond to it?
10:33:00 16 A. As I recall the conversations went something
10:33:03 17 like, you know, Dr. Jadwin, I really think that some
10:33:07 18 of these -- some of this information that you're
10:33:10 19 getting here is erroneous because these things are
10:33:17 20 blank and we have too many copies and they need -- we
10:33:20 21 need to get rid of one of these copies, you know, we
10:33:23 22 really need to do that so this doesn't happen, that

10:33:26 23 kind of thing. And the response was something to the
10:33:29 24 effect that, you know, we need to keep all the
10:33:34 25 originals, if we had all the originals in this office

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65
10:33:37 1 down here that wouldn't happen, nobody would be
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10:33:39 2 confused, that kind of thing.
10:33:41 3 Q. Oh, I see.
10:33:42 4 A. So it was sort of a circular conversation
10:33:44 5 that never went anywhere.

10:33:46 6 Q. I see. So he -- that was an example of him
10:33:49 7 not being /RE accept /TEUFR?

10:33:51 8 A. Right.
10:33:52 9 Q. To problem /SOFPLG with you?
10:33:54 10 A. Yes.
10:33:55 11 Q. /S* receptive.) There do you know whether or
10:33:58 12 not the blank PCCs -- okay. You've said there were
10:34:02 13 two copies of the PCC /-Z, one was the one that was
10:34:05 14 to be fill out and was filled out and then there was
10:34:07 15 the one that was a plank copy that was supposed to be
10:34:09 16 thrown away. Correct?
10:34:11 17 A. Correct.
10:34:11 18 Q. I'm just -- you've been using the term but
10:34:13 19 just for the sake of chair I we'll refer to the
10:34:16 20 secretary PCC was the blank PCC so is that okay with
10:34:21 21 you?
10:34:21 22 A. Okay. And the first PCC we'll just call
10:34:24 23 them PCCs /S* /S* /S* so do you recall whether --
10:34:27 24 where were the blank PCCs stored. You said that the
10:34:33 25 regular PCC /-Z, correct ones were store in the
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66
10:34:35 1 patient charts. Where were the blank PCCs stored if

10:34:36 2 they were not thrown away?
10:34:38 3 A. I think I also said that the nurses were

10:34:40 4 putting those in the charts too.
10:34:42 5 Q. I see. So the patient chart would actually
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10:34:44 6 contain both the correct PCCs and the blank PCC?
10:34:48 7 Many cases?

10:34:49 8 A. Oftentimes.
10:34:50 9 Q. Okay. And so when you explained this
10:34:52 10 problem to Dr. Jadwin which could be throwing off his

10:34:54 11 individual audit results, his response was well this
10:34:57 12 problem wouldn't even arise if the PCCs were stored
10:35:01 13 where I want them to be which is -- I want the
10:35:04 14 originals to be in the pathology department.

10:35:06 15 Correct?
10:35:06 16 A. Correct.
10:35:07 17 Q. So now, this /SEG ways into second issue
10:35:11 18 that he wasn't /RE step tiff to you on, this is the
10:35:14 19 location of the PCC storage?
10:35:15 20 A. Correct.
10:35:16 21 Q. Can you describe that issue?
10:35:17 22 A. Sure. Dr. Jadwin wanted to have the
10:35:22 23 blank -- not the blank, the PCCs, the originals,

10:35:26 24 stored somewhere and I mean I don't know how he
10:35:30 25 propose today store them or anything, in the lab.

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67
10:35:33 1 ( Proposed to.) It was his -- apparently

10:35:38 2 history or background, wherever he came from that
10:35:41 3 that was done. And myself, as well as medical
10:35:49 4 records department and medical records committee,

10:35:53 5 felt that that was fragmentation of the medical
10:35:55 6 record in the eyes of Title 22, California law, which
10:36:03 7 really promotes the idea of the entire patient record
10:36:08 8 being stored in one location so the information can
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10:36:13 9 accessible at all times to anyone who looks at it.
10:36:18 10 So that was the crux of it. And the bottom line was
10:36:21 11 Dr. Jadwin never agreed with that. The content of
10:36:27 12 the medical record is ultimately determined by the

10:36:30 13 medical records committee and the medical records
10:36:34 14 committee disagreed with Dr. Jadwin also.

10:36:38 15 Q. Dr. Bill Taylor's, was he the chair of the
10:36:40 16 medical records committee at the time?
10:36:45 17 A. I think he was. I mean, I'm not 100

10:36:48 18 percent, but I'm about 95 percent that he was.
10:36:55 19 The --
10:36:55 20 Q. Do you recall who else was on the medical

10:36:57 21 records committee besides Bill Taylor, assuming he
10:37:00 22 was on there?
10:37:01 23 A. Well, Angie raise, who is the supervisor in
10:37:05 24 medical records, is a constant attendant but you

10:37:11 25 would have to look at the list of /( members.
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68
10:37:20 1 Q. Are you a member?

10:37:20 2 A. I am a member.
10:37:31 3 Q. Okay. And you said Dr. Jadwin wasn't
10:37:34 4 receptive. What does that mean? Was he arguing with

10:37:38 5 you? He was saying I don't agree with you? What was
10:37:40 6 he doing?
10:37:41 7 A. All of the above. Not only with me but with
10:37:46 8 multiple people.

10:37:47 9 Q. Okay. Now, you say Dr. Jadwin was not
10:37:52 10 receptive to your ideas. You just named two. Right?
10:37:56 11 He wasn't -- he wasn't really seeing eye to eye with

10:37:58 12 you on. How -- what was the nature of the
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10:38:04 13 conversations you had with Dr. Jadwin? Were they
10:38:08 14 professional conversations?

10:38:09 15 A. No she /SRAOEUD one /WEULTD address I think
10:38:12 16 they were very similar to the conversation. It just
10:38:15 17 was a dead end conversation. I mean, he had his mind

10:38:18 18 made up that those things he had never seen an
10:38:22 19 organization where they hadn't been stored in the
10:38:24 20 lab. I had indicated -- I indicated to him that I
10:38:27 21 had never seen an organization where they were stored

10:38:29 22 in the lab and I questioned him as to how he was
10:38:32 23 going to be able to locate that if we needed it for
10:38:35 24 patient care purposes. I think he said he was going
10:38:40 25 to store them in binders or in notebooks or boxes or

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69
10:38:44 1 something, you know, it was irrelevant as far as I

10:38:46 2 was concerned.
10:38:48 3 I felt that it was very important to have
10:38:55 4 that information, one, we needed to know that the

10:38:59 5 patient had -- had received the blood. We needed the
10:39:01 6 vital sign information during the blood /TRAPBSZ
10:39:04 7 fusion part, which would leave a huge gaping hole
10:39:07 8 inpatient information if that was stored somewhere in

10:39:11 9 the lab.
10:39:11 10 Q. The blood pressure information like that is
10:39:13 11 only stored on the PCCs in the patient chart?

10:39:16 12 A. During the time that the transfusion is
10:39:18 13 being administered, that is the location that we
10:39:22 14 document those vital signs.

10:39:24 15 Q. Okay. Now, these conversations where
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10:39:29 16 Dr. Jadwin was -- he had his mind made up, he wasn't
10:39:33 17 bulging, this is going to be kind of ridiculous, but
10:39:36 18 was he waving had I arms around in was he, you know,
10:39:39 19 shaking a fist in your face? Was he screaming

10:39:41 20 expletives at you loudly so everyone could hear it?
10:39:46 21 Who was haze demeanor like when you were having these
10:39:48 22 conversations? Was he jumping up and down with steam
10:39:51 23 coming out of his ears, perhaps what was he like,
10:39:54 24 that's obviously facetious but what was he like?

10:39:58 25 A. He never -- he never shook his fist in my
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70
10:40:02 1 face.
10:40:03 2 Q. Okay.
10:40:04 3 A. He was obviously frustrated, obviously not
10:40:17 4 going to change his mind, obviously not willing to
10:40:24 5 listen to anything. I presented cases from other

10:40:27 6 hospitals, some of the lab directors that I hold in
10:40:31 7 high esteem had no interest in any of that.
10:40:37 8 Q. Neutral. They were neutral? Oh, he had no

10:40:41 9 interest in what these other authorities --
10:40:44 10 A. He had no interest. He had only his own
10:40:47 11 goals in mind and whenever there was an attempt made
10:40:52 12 to discussion an alternative, he basically just

10:40:58 13 shutdown the conversation.
10:41:00 14 Q. Okay. I appreciate that. I'm just -- I
10:41:04 15 guess -- let me ask you a few questions, and just yes
10:41:07 16 or no would probably be fine. Was Dr. Jadwin
10:41:10 17 shouting ex /PHRET I was at you at any time?
10:41:12 18 A. I don't recall that.

10:41:13 19 Q. Is that something you would recall?
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10:41:15 20 A. I think I would.
10:41:16 21 Q. Okay. Was Dr. Jadwin -- was he -- I mean, I

10:41:22 22 guess the colloquial term was was he getting up in
10:41:25 23 your face, was he standing very close to you in your
10:41:28 24 personal space and threat /EPG you physically?

10:41:31 25 A. He was not threatening me physically.
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71
10:41:32 1 Q. So you never felt scared of him. Right in

10:41:37 2 physically?
10:41:38 3 MR. WASSER: She was answering the question
10:41:39 4 and you cut her off.

10:41:40 5 MR. LEE: I apologize. That's correct. I'm
10:41:42 6 sorry. Please finish your answer.
10:41:43 7 A. I never felt physically threatened by him.
10:41:52 8 I -- I basically felt that conversations with him
10:41:56 9 were dead-end.

10:41:58 10 Q. Right.
10:42:01 11 Was Dr. Jadwin -- was he raising his voice
10:42:08 12 at you?
10:42:08 13 A. When we had these discussions his voice
10:42:11 14 wasn't his normal conversational voice. It was

10:42:14 15 obvious that he wanted me to listen and to try to get
10:42:17 16 his point.
10:42:21 17 Q. But would you say that his tone of voice

10:42:23 18 became uncomfortably loud so as to make you
10:42:27 19 uncomfortable?
10:42:32 20 A. I think -- it was uncomfortable from the

10:42:44 21 standpoint that as it would be with anyone when
10:42:52 22 you're trying to have a professional business
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10:42:55 23 conversation and they're talking at you.
10:43:03 24 Q. Not hearing you, basically.
10:43:07 25 A. Not listening to you.
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72
10:43:14 1 Q. Is that something you see in a lot of

10:43:15 2 doctors or is it something particularly unique to
10:43:19 3 Dr. Jadwin?

10:43:21 4 A. I don't see a lot of physicians who have
10:43:26 5 that approach, i.e., basically don't listen, don't
10:43:31 6 take your -- your comments into consideration.
10:43:39 7 Q. Okay. Was there anything else besides
10:43:41 8 Dr. Jadwin's -- do you mine if I just call it close
10:43:45 9 mind /-D /TPHES or stubborn /TPHES or what's a good

10:43:49 10 way to put it in his unwillingness to listen, is
10:43:53 11 there anything else besides Dr. Jadwin's
10:43:54 12 unwillingness to listen that you found offensive or

10:43:57 13 objection about your conversations with him?
10:44:04 14 A. .) /PR-PB objectionable about your.)
10:44:06 15 A. No. And I guess -- can I make a comment
10:44:10 16 about that?
10:44:11 17 Q. Sure many please do.

10:44:12 18 A. Okay. My relationship with Dr. Jadwin was
10:44:14 19 very limited. In fact, it was limited probably to

10:44:20 20 the issue of the blood and then my experience with
10:44:26 21 him at meetings.
10:44:30 22 Q. Okay. What about at meetings? Did you --

10:44:33 23 did you find him engaging in any offensive conduct at
10:44:38 24 meetings?
10:44:38 25 A. At med exec committee I would say yes.

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73
10:44:42 1 Q. Can you describe some of that conduct?

10:44:44 2 A. It's very similar kind of communication that
10:44:48 3 I explained to you and that was whenever he would

10:44:53 4 present a policy or there would be discussion
10:44:56 5 concerning a process that the lab was involved in
10:45:01 6 that the conversation went about as far as my

10:45:04 7 conversations with him and the PCC. If he didn't --
10:45:10 8 if it wasn't going his way, he didn't want to hear
10:45:14 9 about it.

10:45:21 10 Q. Okay. So it's very similar -- the
10:45:23 11 interactions you -- well, the conduct you saw by
10:45:26 12 Dr. Jadwin at the medical executive committee

10:45:29 13 meetings was -- was objectionable in the same way
10:45:33 14 that your personal interactions with him were. He
10:45:36 15 was very close minded, not receptive to other
10:45:39 16 people's opinions and was kind of pulling ahead on
10:45:42 17 his idea. Correct?

10:45:43 18 A. Those are your words, but I agree.
10:45:45 19 Q. You agree. I'm a lawyer. I'm good with
10:45:48 20 words, I hope.

10:45:49 21 And I mean /AORBGS than that, though, there
10:45:52 22 was nothing offensive or unprofessional besides just

10:45:55 23 his clothes minded /TPHES. Correct? I mean, that's
10:46:01 24 to me offensive and unprofessional but yes.
10:46:03 25 Q. Absolutely. I'm not disagreeing.

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74
10:46:05 1 A. Those are the kinds of behaviors that I was
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10:46:08 2 witness to.
10:46:09 3 Q. Okay. Okay. Just getting back to the
10:46:14 4 medical records committee do you recall how many
10:46:16 5 people were on that committee at the time? Just

10:46:18 6 estimating.
10:46:19 7 A. I mean, I would estimate that there are

10:46:21 8 probably eight to ten. That's just a guess.
10:46:25 9 Q. Well, I mean --
10:46:26 10 A. So.
10:46:27 11 Q. We're actually -- guess is a bad word in a
10:46:30 12 depo. How about your estimate? Would you say you
10:46:33 13 would estimate it's eight to ten?

10:46:35 14 A. I would estimate eight to ten.
10:46:41 15 Q. Now, did you -- do you know if Dr. Jadwin --
10:46:52 16 what were these -- this PCC issue how was it resolved
10:46:58 17 in the end? Was it ever resolved?

10:47:01 18 A. Well, we currently have one copy, one
10:47:03 19 original, and it's documented and placed in the
10:47:07 20 chart. So I guess the answer to the question is
10:47:11 21 we're doing very well with one copy placing it in the
10:47:14 22 chart now.
10:47:15 23 Q. Okay. Good so. That's the final resolution
10:47:17 24 then?
10:47:18 25 A. (Witness nods head.) Actually that was the
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75
10:47:19 1 final resolution then. I mean, it's been the final

10:47:23 2 resolution owe /OELTS medical records committee
10:47:26 3 determined that the PCC would remain in the chart.

10:47:29 4 Q. Okay.
10:47:30 5 A. So that was resolved some time ago. As soon
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10:47:32 6 as we were able to fix the software problem, then we
10:47:35 7 resolved the duplicate documentation -- or the

10:47:38 8 duplicate form.
10:47:40 9 Q. So the location -- so basically the blank
10:47:42 10 PCC problem was finally solved?

10:47:44 11 A. Yes.
10:47:45 12 Q. Okay. Now, did Dr. -- Dr. Jadwin, he raised
10:47:48 13 other PCC concerns which -- could they -- could they,
10:47:54 14 to your knowledge, were all the of Dr. Jadwin's

10:47:56 15 concerns about the PCCs arising out of the blank P cc
10:48:01 16 problem or were there other problems that were
10:48:03 17 legitimate that he was spotting in the PCCs? Again
10:48:07 18 this is to your knowledge?

10:48:08 19 A. To my knowledge -- no. Absolutely. There
10:48:10 20 were -- there were blank or not completed forms that
10:48:17 21 were the originals also.
10:48:19 22 Q. Um-hmm. Okay.
10:48:21 23 So a certain percent of -- we don't know the

10:48:25 24 exact percentage but certainly some percentage of
10:48:27 25 Dr. Jadwin's PCC concerns would be explained by the

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76
10:48:31 1 blank PCC problem. Right in he was looking at the

10:48:33 2 blank once. Correct?
10:48:34 3 A. Correct.
10:48:35 4 Q. Not the original /WUPBL. /TPORPT PCCs, the

10:48:38 5 other percentage where it seemed Dr. Jadwin was
10:48:40 6 looking at the correct PCC, the original one ask was
10:48:43 7 nevertheless seeing issues ever incompetent police or
10:48:48 8 noncompliance, how was that issue resolved?
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10:48:52 9 A. Well, again, if you have any experience with
10:48:57 10 medical documentation that is an ongoing process that
10:49:04 11 we continually work on.
10:49:06 12 Q. Sure.
10:49:07 13 A. To improve.
10:49:09 14 So we have taken the blood even at that

10:49:15 15 point in time took the blood documentation very
10:49:18 16 seriously, as I indicated, we presented the data to
10:49:22 17 the nursing quality -- at the nursing quality

10:49:27 18 meetings, at the department manager meetings, various
10:49:31 19 managers, placed various improvement processes on
10:49:42 20 their units and continued to do so to get the

10:49:47 21 documentation as close to 100 percent as we possibly
10:49:51 22 can.
10:49:51 23 Q. So have you actually seen a rise in the
10:49:55 24 percentage of complete and correctly filled out PCCs?

10:49:59 25 A. Yes.
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77
10:50:00 1 Q. Okay. And can you estimate what that

10:50:02 2 percentage -- well, can you tell us year by year
10:50:05 3 roughly what the percentages are?
10:50:06 4 A. No.
10:50:07 5 Q. No. Do you know -- can you estimate what
10:50:09 6 the percentages around today or the last time you
10:50:12 7 looked at the number?
10:50:13 8 A. No. I would have to refer bankrupt to the

10:50:15 9 document.
10:50:15 10 Q. Okay. But to your recollection or to your
10:50:19 11 knowledge the problem of truly incomplete will I

10:50:23 12 filled original PCCs is -- is almost resolved at this
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10:50:28 13 point?
10:50:28 14 A. It's an ongoing performance improvement

10:50:32 15 issue.
10:50:32 16 Q. Do you recall whether any regulatory
10:50:36 17 authorities ever reviewed the PCC issue?

10:50:40 18 A. We've had multiple regulatory agencies
10:50:43 19 review our entire blood administration process.
10:50:47 20 Q. Okay. Can you name those agencies?
10:50:50 21 A. Joint commission, cap, and CMS.

10:50:59 22 Q. I'm sorry. What's CMS?
10:51:06 23 A. Shoot. What the heck does it stand for?
10:51:08 24 Q. California medical society or --
10:51:10 25 MR. WASSER: No. It's a welfare --

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78
10:51:12 1 THE WITNESS: No. It's a federal

10:51:14 2 government --
10:51:15 3 MR. WASSER: Social Security.
10:51:16 4 MS. BARNES: It's the centers for Medicare

10:51:18 5 and Medicaid Services, formerly HCFA, Healthcare
11:23:53 6 Financing Administration.
10:51:25 7 THE WITNESS: Thank you.
10:51:25 8 MR. LEE: Thank you. That's a very good

10:51:26 9 answer.
10:51:26 10 THE WITNESS: It's the federal government.
10:51:28 11 BY MR. LEE:

10:51:28 12 Q. Do you recall if Dr. Jadwin -- let me back
13 up.
10:51:34 14 Do you recall if the department of health

10:51:36 15 services ever looked at the PCC issue or blood
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10:51:39 16 issue -- blood administration issue?
10:51:40 17 A. That would be Title 22.
10:51:42 18 MR. WASSER: DHS.
10:51:44 19 THE WITNESS: DHS. I don't recall.

10:51:47 20 BY MR. LEE:
10:51:49 21 Q. And what do you recall -- were you -- did

10:51:56 22 you happen to learn what the findings were or the
10:51:58 23 reports were of these multiple regulatory agencies
10:52:02 24 looking at the blood administration?

10:52:05 25 A. Well, the way -- the way we usually have
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79
10:52:07 1 reports from these agencies is if there are -- if
10:52:10 2 they review something and there's a deficiency then
10:52:13 3 they write it as a deficiency.
10:52:15 4 Q. Okay.
10:52:17 5 A. And I mean, I -- our latest survey of CMS I

10:52:26 6 know for a fact because I remember very clearly that
10:52:29 7 we had no deficiencies in nursing, period. So they
10:52:33 8 did not find any fault with the blood. Joint --
10:52:39 9 Q. I'm sorry. Go ahead.
10:52:41 10 A. I was going to say, I don't believe joint
10:52:43 11 commission found any. I would have to refer to those
10:52:46 12 reports.
10:52:52 13 Q. The same thing with cap?
10:52:56 14 A. Yes.
10:52:56 15 Q. J A.C. H /OFPL.)

10:52:58 16 A. It's actually T C.T. J S it's called the
10:53:06 17 joint commission.
10:53:07 18 THE WITNESS: Just as I piece of

10:53:08 19 information.
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10:53:09 20 MR. LEE: It sound like a T.V. show.
10:53:12 21 ( It's.
10:53:15 22 Q. So as far as you know Dr. Jadwin's concerns
10:53:18 23 about the original PCCs that he was finding didn't
10:53:22 24 really rise to a regulatory deficiency, to your

10:53:26 25 knowledge?
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80
10:53:26 1 A. If they did, they were -- they would be --

10:53:30 2 it would have been a minor one where they would have
10:53:32 3 said, you know, and I really -- no, I don't know if
10:53:36 4 it rows to that but it certainly didn't rise to

10:53:39 5 anything major.
10:53:42 6 Q. Actually how do you make that distinction
10:53:43 7 between major and minor just so I know?
10:53:46 8 A. Well, major -- if you've been reading the
10:53:49 9 papers recently, major the CMS actually has been

10:53:55 10 going from -- to many very well known organizations
10:53:59 11 and finding things that they refer to as immediate
10:54:03 12 jeopardy.
10:54:04 13 Q. Okay.
10:54:04 14 A. Which in their mind places the safety of

10:54:09 15 patients or staff in immediate harm.
10:54:14 16 Q. So in other words, none of the regulatory
10:54:18 17 agencies determined that there was jeopardy?

10:54:21 18 A. Correct.
10:54:25 19 Q. Nevertheless a deficiency is never a good
10:54:28 20 thing to hear from from a regulatory?

10:54:32 21 A. We want to be perfect and we want our
10:54:33 22 patients to have perfect care. /S* /S* that's a
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10:54:39 23 goal.
10:54:40 24 Q. Right. Now, Dr. Jadwin was finding some
10:54:47 25 original PCCs that were incomplete or incorrectly
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81
10:54:50 1 filled out. Were you aware of whether Ms. Hevle in

10:54:54 2 her audits were picking up the same types of errors
10:54:59 3 in the original PCCs?

10:55:01 4 A. Well, Ms. Hevle's audits certainly reflected
10:55:05 5 less than 100 percent compliance. Whether they were
10:55:12 6 looking at the same things, I have no idea.
10:55:20 7 Q. Okay. But there was some corroboration ever
10:55:25 8 Dr. Jadwin's concerns about incomplete or
10:55:27 9 inaccurately -- inaccurately filled PCC /-Z, to your

10:55:34 10 knowledge?
10:55:34 11 A. Well, I wouldn't call it corroboration
10:55:37 12 because I don't know if they were working together.

10:55:39 13 In fact, I know they weren't because Ms. Hevle had a
10:55:43 14 different time also trying to coordinate with
10:55:45 15 Dr. Jadwin. But as I indicated, her audits reflected
10:55:52 16 that we were not at 100 percent compliance on all
10:55:56 17 things.
10:55:57 18 Q. So in that sense she was finding something
10:55:59 19 similar to Dr. Jadwin's findings from his individual

10:56:02 20 audit?
10:56:04 21 A. Not -- not to the extent. Her numbers were
10:56:07 22 far different than his numbers.

10:56:09 23 Q. Oh, so you do recall that her numbers from
10:56:12 24 different from Dr. Jadwin's?
10:56:13 25 A. I do recall that.

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82
10:56:14 1 Q. And do you recall owe okay. You don't know

10:56:17 2 how many PCC /-Z Ms. Her will I was audit /SKP-G we
10:56:21 3 don't know -- do you know how many Dr. Jadwin was
10:56:23 4 looking at?
10:56:24 5 A. (Witness shakes head.) Oh, no, the answer
10:56:26 6 is no. I'm shacking my head no.

10:56:27 7 Q. Good. You caught that instead ever me
10:56:30 8 catching it so I mean it's possible it could be --
10:56:33 9 are you familiar with statistical sampling error?

10:56:35 10 A. Yes. /STKPHR-LT size of the sample will
10:56:38 11 determine the accuracy or truth worthiness of the
10:56:41 12 average you derive /S* /S*.

10:56:43 13 A. I'm familiar with that. I'm not sure it
10:56:45 14 applies here.
10:56:46 15 Q. But you don't know one way or the other?
10:56:48 16 A. I don't know one way or the other. I know
10:56:50 17 that Ms. Hevle's samples were statistically -- that

10:56:57 18 that she is a /PWAOEUD /-D by joint commission
10:56:59 19 regular laying /-Z on how many samples /S* /S* Karen
10:57:02 20 out.
10:57:02 21 Q. So probably her sample side was large enough
10:57:05 22 to yield a /PRELT he pretty accurate finding?

10:57:09 23 A. We believe so.
10:57:10 24 Q. Okay. Okay. But regardless finding --
10:57:17 25 let's say you find one percent or two percent

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83
10:57:21 1 incomplete or inaccurate if. Cc.'s being filled out.
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10:57:25 2 That's still a problem regardless. You wouldn't want
10:57:27 3 to /SEU there and say oh, that's fine?
10:57:30 4 A. I would never say that was okay.
10:57:36 5 Q. Would you mind going off the record just

10:57:38 6 briefly for a /REUF room break?
10:57:40 7 MR. WASSER: Fine.

10:57:41 8 MR. LEE: Okay. Let will he stop /THR-FPL
10:57:43 9 we're going to go off the record at ten 58 a.m..
11:10:06 10 MR. LEE: Okay. We're back on the record at

11:10:08 11 1110:00 a.m..
11:10:25 12 MR. LEE: Oak what time --
11:10:28 13 BY MR. LEE:

11:10:29 14 Q. Ms. Smith, did Dr. Jadwin, to your knowledge
11:10:31 15 did he ever get' hole hold of these audit reports
11:10:36 16 from Alice hell have I, do you know?
11:10:39 17 A. I don't know the answer to that.

11:10:40 18 Q. You don't know one way or another whether
11:10:42 19 Dr. Jadwin -- well, let me ask the question. Do you
11:10:45 20 know whether or not Dr. Jadwin knew that Ms. Hevle
11:10:47 21 was conducting ah /EUTS audits of the P cc.'s?

11:10:52 22 A. To the best of my knowledge he did know.
11:10:55 23 Q. Okay. And what do you base that on?
11:11:06 24 A. She was working with Dr. Jadwin's office to

11:11:06 25 determine the samples or the chart names and so
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84
11:11:10 1 forth. And Alice was also on the blood transfusion

11:11:15 2 committee that was supposed to have the
11:11:22 3 responsibility of overseeing blood transfusions in

11:11:27 4 the organization.
11:11:29 5 Q. Okay. But you don't have any -- you didn't
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11:11:31 6 actually see or hear of Dr. Jadwin receiving the
11:11:35 7 audit reports directly from Ms. Hevle?

11:11:39 8 A.
11:11:39 9 MR. WASSER: What do you mean?
11:11:40 10 MR. LEE: You're just assuming based upon

11:11:42 11 their work relationship their rolls?
11:11:47 12 A. Well, the fact that I dough to shore sure is
11:11:49 13 she was a member of blood transfusion committee
11:11:52 14 that -- that I believe he was supposed to chair and

11:11:59 15 that she worked with his office to get audit
11:12:07 16 information.
11:12:08 17 Q. Okay.
11:12:09 18 A. For the blood transfusion audit.

11:12:12 19 Q. It just seems a little odd that Dr. Jadwin
11:12:15 20 went ahead and did an independent audit when
11:12:18 21 Ms. Hevle was already doing her own audit and if he
11:12:21 22 knew about that why would he want to spend all that
11:12:23 23 time to worth on a separate audit. Did you ever ask

11:12:26 24 him about that?
11:12:27 25 A. I think that was at this point -- never

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85
11:12:29 1 mind.
11:12:29 2 MR. WASSER: You can say that.
11:12:32 3 THE WITNESS: That you?
11:12:33 4 MR. WASSER: You can say that.

11:12:34 5 THE WITNESS: I think that was a typical
11:12:36 6 reaction from Dr. Jadwin to do his own thing and not
11:12:38 7 pay attention to what someone else was doing and --
11:12:42 8 or not want to know what someone else was doing or
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11:12:45 9 want to know the information, especially since he
11:12:50 10 hadn't done it himself. He only in this case would
11:12:55 11 only believe the information that he was able to
11:12:57 12 ascertain.
11:13:01 13 BY MR. LEE:
11:13:01 14 Q. Okay.
11:13:02 15 A. And we all agreed with you that it was -- it
11:13:07 16 was strange behavior.
11:13:08 17 Q. Okay. Well, I don't know if I -- I was

11:13:12 18 posing it but if you want to agree with me, that's
11:13:15 19 fine.
11:13:19 20 What were your -- your job duties as the

11:13:23 21 chief nursing officer?
11:13:24 22 MR. WASSER: What were they.
11:13:26 23 MR. LEE: Are they. You're currently the
11:13:28 24 chief nursing officer. Right?

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86
11:13:30 1 Q. Okay. So what are and have been your job

11:13:33 2 duties as the CMO C /TPH-FPL O?
11:13:39 3 A. I guess my main job duty is to oversee
11:13:42 4 nursing practice at Kern Medical Center, assuring

11:13:46 5 that nurses are practicing within their scope, which
11:13:50 6 to me is my most important responsibility.
11:13:54 7 ( C N O.) Aside from that, certainly making
11:13:59 8 sure that we as a department of nursing are working

11:14:01 9 /KHRAB rat I have will I to assure the best patient
11:14:04 10 care possible.
11:14:05 11 Q. /KHRAB rat live with each other and with the
11:14:08 12 doctors. Right?
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11:14:09 13 A. And with the lab and with radiology and with
11:14:13 14 the pharmacy and with the patients.

11:14:17 15 ( /KHRAB rat I have /PWREPB Mr.
11:14:20 16 Q. And to whom do you report?
11:14:22 17 A. The CEO.

11:14:23 18 Q. Back then it was Peter Bryan shall currently
11:14:25 19 it's Paul hence letter. Right?
11:14:28 20 A. Correct. /S*.
11:14:28 21 Q. And do you interact as the C N O do you

11:14:33 22 interact with chair besides the department of
11:14:35 23 pathology's chair?
11:14:37 24 A. Yes, sir.
11:14:37 25 Q. Okay. All of the department chairs?

ROUGH DRAFT

87
11:14:40 1 A. At various times, yes.

11:14:42 2 Q. Okay. And what were your job duties with
11:14:47 3 respect to the blood -- the transfusion committee?
11:14:54 4 Were there any?

11:14:57 5 A. I was a member.
11:15:00 6 Q. And --
11:15:02 7 A. Wait just a minute. I'm sorry about that.
11:15:04 8 I was not a member of transfusion committee. I was

11:15:07 9 thinking medical records many I was not a member. We
11:15:10 10 had Alice Hevle was appointed to be the
11:15:13 11 representative on that committee from the quality

11:15:16 12 department. I don't believe there was -- I don't
11:15:20 13 know whether that was a nursing member on the
11:15:22 14 committee or not.

11:15:23 15 Q. Okay. And how -- have you had -- so you've
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11:15:26 16 had interactions with Royce Johnson, for instance.
11:15:30 17 Correct?
11:15:30 18 A. Yes, sir.
11:15:31 19 Q. How were your interactions with Royce

11:15:33 20 Johnson?
11:15:34 21 A. Actually Dr. Johnson and I have a very -- I

11:15:38 22 would consider it an excellent relationship.
11:15:41 23 Q. Okay. So you've never -- are you aware of
11:15:47 24 any complaints about Dr. Johnson's behavior or

11:15:50 25 conduct?
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88
11:15:51 1 A. Yeah. I've heard that there have been
11:15:53 2 complaints about his conduct.
11:15:55 3 Q. Okay. Can you describe some?
11:16:01 4 A. I'm trying to think of any specifics that
11:16:05 5 I've heard. I guess -- I guess I -- I have heard

11:16:12 6 that he is.
11:16:15 7 Q. Times has a temper problem.
11:16:17 8 Q. Anger management issues?

11:16:19 9 A. (Witness nods head.)
11:16:20 10 Q. And do you -- are you aware of anybody
11:16:24 11 actually making a complaint against him or was this
11:16:27 12 just, you know, chatter?

11:16:31 13 A. I'm thinking very hard.
11:16:33 14 Q. Sure. I to?
11:16:40 15 A. I know person -- I'm just trying to think if

11:16:42 16 I know personally by name anybody who's made a
11:16:45 17 complaint and, you know, if I did it's history. I
11:16:49 18 can't remember anyone now.

11:16:50 19 Q. Let me ask you something: Is Mr. Wasser
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11:16:54 20 tapping your foot for a reason? I just heard a tap.
11:16:57 21 I just looked under the table and I see his foot's
11:17:03 22 right next to yours. Is there a system that you guys

11:17:03 23 have worked out?
11:17:06 24 A. A tap? No --
11:17:06 25 Q. Yeah.
ROUGH DRAFT

89
11:17:06 1 MR. WASSER: My feet aren't even close to

11:17:06 2 hers.
11:17:06 3 BY MR. LEE:
11:17:07 4 Q. I heard a tap, Ms. Smith. Is there a system

11:17:09 5 that you've worked out of signals with Mr. Wasser?
11:17:11 6 A. No, sir. Absolutely not
11:17:12 7 Q. You're not being signalled answers by your
11:17:14 8 attorney, are you?
11:17:15 9 A. No, sir.

11:17:15 10 Q. I see. Okay.
11:17:16 11 Well, I'm --
11:17:17 12 A. Adamantly not.

11:17:19 13 Q. I'm looking under the table right now, and I
11:17:21 14 see Mr. Wasser's foot is very -- was much closer than
11:17:23 15 it is now to your feet.
11:17:24 16 MR. WASSER: I haven't moved my feet in
11:17:26 17 maybe ten minutes.

11:17:27 18 MR. LEE: I definitely heard a tap under the
11:17:29 19 table.
11:17:29 20 MR. WASSER: Yeah. I heard a tap, too.

11:17:31 21 What did you do?
11:17:34 22 THE WITNESS: Is that the tap that you're
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11:17:35 23 hearing her --
24 BY MR. LEE:
11:17:36 25 Q. No. I heard a tap of feet.
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90
11:17:37 1 So you're under oath, Ms. Smith. Are you

11:17:39 2 sure you have not worked out a system of foot taps
11:17:41 3 with Mr. Wasser, your attorney, to feed you answers

11:17:43 4 or suggest them?
11:17:44 5 A. I have never been so sure of anything in my
11:17:46 6 life.
11:17:47 7 Q. Okay.
11:17:47 8 A. It's an adamant no.
11:17:48 9 Q. Okay. Good. That's good to hear.
11:17:52 10 Okay. I do note that Mr. Wasser's leg and
11:17:55 11 foot continue to remain very close to Ms. Smith.

11:17:57 12 MR. WASSER: My feet are not close to
11:17:59 13 Ms. Smith. Why don't you come over here and look at
11:18:00 14 them.
11:18:01 15 MR. LEE: Yeah. I see it's --
11:18:02 16 MR. WASSER: Why don't you bring the camera.
11:18:04 17 Here, let's take the camera --

11:18:05 18 MR. LEE: I see it's about -- no. Excuse
11:18:06 19 me. You're going to damage my camera.

11:18:08 20 MR. WASSER: That's where I'm sitting.
11:18:09 21 That's where I'm sitting. Okay? So we got on that
11:18:10 22 tape. We're going to leave it like this, just like
11:18:12 23 this.
11:18:12 24 MR. LEE: Can you please let go of my
11:18:14 25 camera, please. That's my equipment, Mr. Wasser.

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91
11:18:16 1 MR. WASSER: Well, but it's videotaping the

11:18:17 2 situation of my feet. And that's how they've been
11:18:20 3 for -- my feet have been in a situation they're in

11:18:23 4 right now for maybe the last five minutes.
11:18:24 5 MR. LEE: Mr. Wasser, I'm going to have to
11:18:25 6 warn you that you if you touch my equipment again

11:18:28 7 that you're not going to like what happens.
11:18:30 8 MR. WASSER: Well, don't threaten me but --
11:18:31 9 MR. LEE: I'm not threatening you. I'm just

11:18:32 10 telling you, you're not going to like what happens
11:18:33 11 next.
11:18:33 12 MR. WASSER: You're not going to make

11:18:35 13 misstatements about something like that without me
11:18:36 14 verifying the facts. You have the camera here.
11:18:38 15 We're going to use it.
11:18:40 16 MR. LEE: Mr. Wasser, you're not to touch my
11:18:41 17 equipment again. Do you understand?

11:18:41 18 MR. WASSER: I will touch the camera.
11:18:42 19 Anytime you misstate the facts, counsel, we will put
11:18:45 20 it on the record, which I just did.

11:18:46 21 Now, continue, please.
11:18:48 22 MR. LEE: Mr. Wasser, I'm just going to tell

11:18:49 23 you again if you touch my camera again you're not
11:18:51 24 going to like what happens.
11:18:52 25 MR. WASSER: Why don't you finish the

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92
11:18:52 1 threat, sir. What are you going to do to me?
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11:18:55 2 MR. LEE: I'm just telling you, Mr. Wasser,
11:18:55 3 don't touch my equipment again.
11:18:56 4 MR. WASSER: I will touch your camera
11:18:58 5 anytime I need to verify the conditions in the room

11:19:00 6 to counter your misstatements. Now please continue.
11:19:02 7 MR. LEE: Mr. Wasser, I'm just telling you

11:19:04 8 not to touch it again.
11:19:05 9 MR. WASSER: I've heard you. Continue.
11:19:07 10 MR. LEE: Touch it again, and you're going

11:19:08 11 to regret it.
11:19:09 12 MR. WASSER: Thank you, counsel. I'll do
11:19:10 13 whatever I want to verify the conditions in the room

14 that --
11:19:12 15 MR. LEE: You can do that with your camera.
11:19:13 16 You can do it with your equipment. You're not to
11:19:16 17 touch my equipment again.

11:19:16 18 MR. WASSER: I will if I --
11:19:17 19 MR. LEE: Do you understand?
11:19:17 20 MR. WASSER: -- need to.
11:19:17 21 No. Continue.

11:19:18 22 MR. LEE: No. You're not going to touch my
23 equipment if you need to. Do you understand?
24 MR. WASSER: No.

11:19:19 25 MR. LEE: You don't understand.
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93
1 MR. WASSER: Continue with the deposition.

11:19:20 2 MR. LEE: Are you going to touch my computer
11:19:20 3 next?
11:19:20 4 MR. WASSER: Continue with the deposition,
11:19:21 5 Counsel.
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11:19:27 6 MR. LEE: Am I permitted to touch your phone
11:19:28 7 if I need to make a call, Mr. Wasser?

11:19:29 8 MR. WASSER: Do you want to borrow my phone?
11:19:31 9 MR. LEE: Yeah. Can I do that?
11:19:32 10 MR. WASSER: Here.

11 MR. LEE: Yeah.
11:19:33 12 MR. WASSER: Well, thank you very much.
13 MR. WASSER: Make the call.
11:19:34 14 MR. LEE: I'll be holding on to this, then.

11:19:35 15 MR. WASSER: No. Give it back if you're not
11:19:37 16 going to make a call.
11:19:38 17 MR. LEE: No. I'm going to be -- I do need
11:19:39 18 to verify -- I've got to take a picture.

11:19:42 19 MR. WASSER: Is that what we're going to do?
11:19:43 20 Give me my phone back. If you want to borrow it,
11:19:45 21 I'll give it to you.
11:19:46 22 MR. LEE: Okay. Mr. Wasser, put my cameras
11:19:47 23 back.
11:19:47 24 MR. WASSER: Give me my phone back.
11:19:50 25 MR. LEE: Thank you.

ROUGH DRAFT

94
11:19:56 1 You know, when lawyers go to law school that

11:19:57 2 they regress a little bit in maturity, I guess.
11:20:03 3 Mr. Wasser has regressed in his age here.
11:20:08 4 I'm going to ask you again not to touch my

11:20:09 5 camera, Mr. Wasser. It's not your equipment.
11:20:11 6 BY MR. LEE:
11:20:12 7 Q. Okay. Ms. Smith, you are under oath and you
11:20:13 8 do understand that if your attorney is signaling
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11:20:15 9 under the table to suggest answers to you that's not
11:20:17 10 appropriate.
11:20:18 11 Do you understand that?
11:20:18 12 MR. WASSER: No signaling going on, Counsel.

11:20:20 13 MR. LEE: Okay. You know what? We're
11:20:21 14 adjourning this deposition. I've asked you not to

11:20:22 15 touch my equipment multiple times. You continue to
11:20:25 16 touch my camera. Let me just tell you right now --
11:20:27 17 MR. WASSER: Don't make misstatements.

11:20:28 18 MR. LEE: Let the record reflect that
11:20:29 19 Mr. Wasser has grabbed my camera by the stalk. The
11:20:31 20 instructions on the camera specifically state you're

11:20:33 21 only to grab it by the base. If you've damaged that
11:20:35 22 camera, I'm going to ask for -- you to pay for that.
23 MR. WASSER: Don't make --
11:20:38 24 MR. LEE: Do you understand?

11:20:38 25 MR. WASSER: Don't make misstatements --
ROUGH DRAFT

95
11:20:38 1 MR. LEE: Mr. Wasser, we're adjourning this

11:20:39 2 deposition. You've -- I suspect you've damaged my
11:20:43 3 camera. It's not working.
11:20:47 4 It's 11:21. We are off the record.

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9 ROUGH DRAFT
10 UNCERTIFIED TRANSCRIPT
11 Excerpt of Deposition of
12 BARBARA ELIZABETH PATRICK
13 Tuesday, August 19, 2008
14
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16 uncertified and may contain untranslated steno, an

17 occasional reporter's note and/or nonsensical English
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24 intended to be used or cited in any court
13:07:09 25 proceedings.
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2
13:07:09 1 MR. LEE: Before we even begin, I would
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13:07:11 2 like -- there was a bit of an episode in the last
13:07:14 3 deposition where one of my cameras was damaged by
13:07:18 4 Mr. Wasser who grabbed it. So we are going to be
13:07:21 5 seeking a protective record with the Court that my

13:07:25 6 equipment shall not be touched by Mr. Wasser without
13:07:27 7 my permission. And we're going to --

13:07:27 8 MR. WASSER: Are we on the record? We need
13:07:29 9 to be on the record.
13:07:30 10 MR. LEE: We are on the record, actually.

13:07:32 11 MR. WASSER: We are.
12 MR. LEE: We are on the record, yeah.
13:07:32 13 MR. WASSER: You didn't put us on the

13:07:33 14 record.
13:07:34 15 MR. LEE: What do you mean?
13:07:34 16 MR. WASSER: For your video. You didn't put
13:07:36 17 us on the record. You didn't recite your --

13:07:38 18 MR. LEE: You want me to go through the --
13:07:39 19 MR. WASSER: Never mind. I mean, if we're
13:07:40 20 on record -- so long as we're on the record is all I
13:07:42 21 care about.

13:07:43 22 MR. LEE: The point is is that we are
13:07:45 23 willing to proceed with today's deposition, but we
13:07:47 24 would like an assurance that Mr. Wasser will not be

13:07:49 25 touching my equipment without my permission.
ROUGH DRAFT

3
13:07:51 1 Can we get an assurance like that?

13:07:53 2 MR. WASSER: If you will assure us that
13:07:55 3 you're not going to make false, unsubstantiated

13:07:58 4 allegations that can only be verified by photographic
13:08:01 5 evidence.
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13:08:03 6 MR. LEE: I never have and I certainly
13:08:05 7 won't. You have that promise.

13:08:05 8 Is that okay with you, Mr. Wasser?
13:08:07 9 MR. WASSER: Let's proceed with the
13:08:08 10 deposition, please.

13:08:08 11 MR. LEE: Again, Mr. Wasser, seriously, if
13:08:10 12 you are going -- I'm down to one camera now and if
13:08:14 13 you destroy that one we really can't proceed.
13:08:16 14 Actually, we cannot proceed unless I get assurance

13:08:18 15 you're not going to be grabbing my equipment.
13:08:20 16 Are you going to give us that assurance or
13:08:23 17 not? That's the only condition we have to have.
13:08:24 18 Otherwise we can't proceed with today's depo. We are

13:08:26 19 seeking a protective order from the court, but we're
13:08:29 20 willing to go forward with this deposition if you
13:08:31 21 give us that assurance.
13:08:32 22 MR. WASSER: If you do not make allegations
13:08:35 23 that can only be verified by photographic evidence,

13:08:38 24 then there's no need to do that. But if you make
13:08:42 25 another allegation that's unsubstantiated that can

ROUGH DRAFT

4
13:08:45 1 only be corroborated by -- and I appreciate you

13:08:49 2 control the record. It's your camera. So there's
13:08:50 3 really not a lot of comfort that comes from using
13:08:52 4 that because you could -- you could falsify the

13:08:54 5 record as you've falsified the allegations. But I'm
13:08:57 6 hoping that you don't do that again.
13:09:00 8 again, are you going to give us an assurance you're
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13:09:01 9 not going to be touching my equipment without my
13:09:03 10 permission?
13:09:04 11 MR. WASSER: If I touch your equipment, I'll
13:09:05 12 tell you beforehand.

13:09:06 13 MR. LEE: Well -- no. I'm sorry. We're
13:09:11 14 going to have to not proceed with today's depo

13:09:14 15 because I need an assurance -- you've already broken
13:09:15 16 one of my cameras just an hour ago and I need an
13:09:18 17 assurance you're not going to break my second camera.

13:09:20 18 MR. WASSER: I do not have any basis to
13:09:21 19 believe that your camera was damaged. Okay? I would
13:09:24 20 like you to continue with the deposition --

13:09:25 21 MR. LEE: Mr. Wasser --
13:09:26 22 MR. WASSER: -- please.
13:09:27 23 MR. LEE: -- I need an assurance that you're
13:09:28 24 not going to touch my equipment without my

13:09:31 25 permission. I need that assurance. Are you saying
ROUGH DRAFT

5
13:09:32 1 that you're going to touch my equipment without my

13:09:34 2 permission?
13:09:35 3 MR. WASSER: I have no plans to touch your
13:09:36 4 equipment, Counsel.

13:09:37 5 MR. LEE: Okay. So we have your assurance,
13:09:38 6 then?
13:09:39 7 MR. WASSER: I have no plans to touch your
13:09:40 8 equipment.
13:09:40 9 MR. LEE: So we have your assurances then?
13:09:43 10 MR. WASSER: Counsel, let's continue with
13:09:44 11 the deposition.

13:09:44 12 MR. LEE: We're not going to continue with
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13:09:46 13 the deposition until we get an assurance from you.
13:09:48 14 It's just that simple. Yes or no. Will you assure
13:09:49 15 me that you're not going to touch my equipment
13:09:51 16 without my permission.
13:09:52 17 MR. WASSER: I have no intention of

13:09:53 18 touching -- plans or intention of touching your
13:09:56 19 equipment.
13:09:56 20 MR. LEE: Okay. So the answer's yes, then.
13:09:58 21 Correct?
13:09:59 22 MR. WASSER: Please continue.
13:10:00 23 MR. LEE: Do we have your assurance then?
13:10:06 24 It's the only -- I'm not going to proceed -- then I
13:10:08 25 guess we're going to have to stop today's depo. It's

ROUGH DRAFT

6
13:10:11 1 unfortunate for Ms. Patrick. It's a waste of her

13:10:12 2 time, but I've already lost one camera. I'm not
13:10:15 3 going to let a second camera be destroyed, Mark.
13:10:17 4 MR. WASSER: There's no risk to your camera.

13:10:19 5 Please continue with the deposition.
13:10:21 6 MR. LEE: So you -- give me your assurance
13:10:23 7 you're not going to touch equipment without my
13:10:26 8 permission. Correct?

13:10:28 9 MR. WASSER: Please commence and continue
13:10:30 10 with the deposition.
13:10:31 11 MR. LEE: Okay. Then we're stopping this

13:10:32 12 deposition. I'm sorry, Mark, I tried to accommodate
13:10:35 13 you. I tried to accommodate --
13:10:36 14 MR. WASSER: There is no --

13:10:36 15 MR. LEE: No. Let me finish.
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13:10:36 16 I tried to accommodate Ms. Patrick. We are
13:10:39 17 seeking a protective order from the court because you
13:10:42 18 have grabbed my equipment and you destroyed one of my
13:10:43 19 cameras.
13:10:44 20 MR. WASSER: I don't --
13:10:45 21 MR. LEE: Okay. If you want to talk

13:10:46 22 please --
13:10:46 23 MR. WASSER: Are you done yet?
24 MR. LEE: I'm done.

25 MR. WASSER: Please finish.
ROUGH DRAFT

7
13:10:48 1 MR. LEE: No. Go ahead, please.
13:10:49 2 MR. WASSER: There's no evidence that your
13:10:51 3 camera's damaged, first of all. There's no intention
13:10:54 4 or risk or threat or anticipation of touching your
13:10:57 5 equipment, as you put it. Your camera's operating.

13:10:59 6 Let's start the deposition.
13:11:00 7 MR. LEE: Mr. Wasser, then we're not going
13:11:02 8 to proceed with this depo. I am offering to proceed

13:11:05 9 with this depo if you assure me you're not going to
13:11:07 10 touch my equipment without my permission.
13:11:08 11 MR. WASSER: I've told you that.
13:11:10 12 MR. LEE: If you cannot give me that

13:11:11 13 assurance yes or no, if you can't do it, then we will
13:11:13 14 just have to wait for a protective order. In fact,
13:11:16 15 we are not going to proceed with any depos till we

13:11:18 16 get a protective order from the court. I'm sorry.
13:11:20 17 I'm trying to accommodate everybody right now. But
13:11:22 18 if you're not willing to give me -- if you're saying

13:11:22 19 that there's a chance you're going to touch my
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13:11:24 20 equipment without my permission --
13:11:25 21 MR. WASSER: I'm not saying that, Counsel.

13:11:26 22 You're saying that. I don't see any risk that
13:11:31 23 you're -- that -- any risk to your equipment.
13:11:32 24 MR. LEE: Okay. So then if there's no risk,

13:11:34 25 then you'll have no problem giving me your assurance
ROUGH DRAFT

8
13:11:36 1 that you're not going to do it. Right?

13:11:37 2 MR. WASSER: There's no risk to your
13:11:39 3 equipment at all. Please continue with the
13:11:40 4 deposition.
13:11:42 5 MR. LEE: Mark, you've proven just at the
13:11:44 6 last deposition when you broke my camera there is a
13:11:47 7 risk.
13:11:47 8 MR. WASSER: I did not break your camera.
13:11:48 9 Please continue with the deposition.

13:11:49 10 MR. LEE: Mark, yes or no. Are you going to
13:11:50 11 give me your assurance?
13:11:51 12 MR. WASSER: Counsel, I'm not going to go

13:11:52 13 back and forth with you.
13:11:53 14 MR. LEE: Okay. Then we're stopping.

15 MR. WASSER: Your equipment --
13:11:54 16 MR. LEE: Sorry. We're not going to
13:11:56 17 continue with this deposition. We did it as an

13:11:59 18 attempt to accommodate Ms. Patrick and everyone else
13:12:01 19 and we're not going to proceed until we get a
13:12:02 20 protective order.

13:12:02 21 MR. WASSER: Do not adjourn this deposition.
13:12:04 22 Please commence it and continue. Your equipment is
Page 7
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13:12:07 23 not at risk.
13:12:08 24 MR. LEE: Mr. Wasser, you've demonstrated
13:12:10 25 that to be false at the last deposition. My camera
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9
13:12:12 1 is not working. And --

13:12:14 2 MR. WASSER: This camera on the table is not
13:12:15 3 working?
13:12:15 4 MR. LEE: This one is. The other one is
13:12:17 5 not.
13:12:17 6 MR. WASSER: Fine. Please continue with the
13:12:18 7 deposition.
13:12:19 8 MR. LEE: Yes, we will, with your assurance
13:12:20 9 you're not going to touch any of my equipment without

13:12:23 10 my permission.
13:12:23 11 MR. WASSER: I've told you there is no --
13:12:25 12 MR. LEE: Forget it, Mark. Mark, no. I'm

13:12:29 13 sorry.
13:12:30 14 Okay. I don't know if Mr. Wasser is going
13:12:32 15 to agree to it, but we're going -- I'm turning my
13:12:34 16 camera off.
13:12:35 17 MR. WASSER: We object to your terminating

13:12:38 18 this deposition.
13:12:38 19 MR. LEE: We're adjourning the deposition.

13:12:40 20 We're not terminating. We're adjourning and we're
13:12:44 21 going to be -- pending a protective order from the
13:12:45 22 court.
13:12:47 23 I'm sorry. The time is now 1:13, and we're
13:12:50 24 adjourning to seek a protective order with the court.
13:12:52 25 Mark, whether you like it or not, you broke

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Page 8
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10
13:12:56 1 my camera. I'm sorry. You touched it --

13:12:57 2 MR. WASSER: I don't believe that.
3 MR. LEE: -- you grabbed it.

13:12:59 4 MR. WASSER: I'm not going to -- this is
13:13:01 5 infantile.
6 THE REPORTER: We're off the record, aren't

7 we?
8 MR. LEE: Yes, we are. Sorry.
13:13:08 9 MR. WASSER: Are we off the record,

13:13:09 10 Mr. Wasser?
13:13:09 11 MR. WASSER: I guess we're off the record.
13:27:14 12 (Recess taken.)

13:27:14 13 MR. LEE: Today is Tuesday, August 19, 2008.
13:27:17 14 This is the deposition by plaintiff of deponent
13:27:21 15 Barbara Patrick in the matter of David F. Jadwin
13:27:25 16 versus County of Kern, et al., U.S. District Court
13:27:28 17 for Eastern District of California, Case Number

13:27:32 18 1:07-cv-26.
13:27:33 19 My name's Eugene Lee, and I am an employee
13:27:36 20 of Law Office of Eugene Lee, counsel of record for

13:27:39 21 the plaintiff, located at 555 West Fifth Street,
13:27:43 22 Suite 3100, Los Angeles, California, 90013.

13:27:48 23 I am videotaping this deposition on behalf
13:27:50 24 of plaintiff. This deposition is taking place at the
13:27:53 25 Holiday Inn located at 801 Truxtun Avenue,

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11
13:27:56 1 Bakersfield, California, 93301.
Page 9
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13:28:00 2 The time is now 1:28 p.m. Will all parties
13:28:03 3 in the room please state their appearances.
13:28:06 4 MR. WASSER: Mark Wasser for the defendants.
13:28:07 5 THE WITNESS: Barbara Patrick.

13:28:09 6 MS. HERRINGTON: Joan Herrington, of counsel
13:28:11 7 to the office of Eugene Lee.

13:28:13 8 MR. LEE: And we also have joining us Karen
13:28:16 9 Barnes, Chief Deputy County Counsel for the County of
10 Kern.
13:28:18 11 Please -- well, before we go and swear the
13:28:21 12 deponent, again I'm going to just repeat for the
13:28:24 13 record that we had an incident at the last deposition

13:28:27 14 where Mr. Wasser grabbed both of my web cams and in
13:28:32 15 the process of grabbing them twice damaged one of
13:28:35 16 them. And so we are seeking a motion for protective
13:28:40 17 order from the Court that Mr. Wasser will not be
13:28:41 18 touching my equipment again without my permission.
13:28:44 19 And we are willing to proceed with today's
13:28:46 20 deposition of Barbara Patrick on condition that
13:28:49 21 Mr. Wasser give us his assurance that he will not be

13:28:52 22 touching any of my property without my permission.
13:28:56 23 MR. WASSER: Do you intend to pursue a
13:28:58 24 protective order nevertheless?

13:29:00 25 MR. LEE: I'm sorry?
ROUGH DRAFT

12
13:29:01 1 MR. WASSER: Do you intend to pursue a

13:29:03 2 protective order neverthless?
13:29:04 3 MR. LEE: Mark, if you give us a stip in

13:29:07 4 order right now --
13:29:07 5 MR. WASSER: A stip in order? I can't give
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13:29:09 6 you an order, Counsel.
13:29:10 7 MR. LEE: Well, I mean, a stip would have to

13:29:12 8 be followed by an order, wouldn't it? It would be a
13:29:15 9 stipulation in order that you and I would agree to
13:29:17 10 and submit to the court for signing. Correct?

13:29:19 11 MR. WASSER: We didn't discuss stipulation
13:29:22 12 in order in earlier conversations. You asked me to
13:29:22 13 make a statement.
13:29:23 14 MR. LEE: Well, I'm just saying for the

13:29:25 15 purpose of today's deposition are you willing to give
13:29:27 16 us your assurance that you're not going to be
13:29:30 17 touching my equipment without my permission?
13:29:31 18 MR. WASSER: And I'm asking, given the

13:29:33 19 statement you made a moment ago, do you intend to
13:29:34 20 pursue a protective order nevertheless?
13:29:36 21 MR. LEE: Well, that's a whole different
13:29:37 22 issue. But I have to --
13:29:38 23 MR. WASSER: No, it's not. It's the same

13:29:40 24 issue. I need to know whether we're going to move
13:29:42 25 forward off this issue or whether we're not.

ROUGH DRAFT

13
13:29:45 1 MR. LEE: Well, there is the tiny matter of

13:29:48 2 the cost of the camera.
13:29:49 3 MR. WASSER: That's another issue, which
13:29:50 4 we'll deal with that separately. But I'm focused

13:29:54 5 right now in getting this deposition going. You said
13:29:57 6 you're moving for protective order. That was not my
13:29:58 7 understanding. I understood you wanted me to make a
13:30:00 8 certain representation to you in lieu of a protective
Page 11
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13:30:03 9 order. I'm asking you what your intention is.
13:30:05 10 MR. LEE: Well, I'm interested in doing a
13:30:07 11 stipulation, but it would have to be reduced to an
13:30:10 12 order by the court.

13:30:11 13 MR. WASSER: We didn't discuss that.
13:30:13 14 MR. LEE: Mr. Wasser, this is a discovery

13:30:15 15 stipulation under Rule 29 of the FRCP. It needs to
13:30:18 16 be reduced to an order and approved by the court.
13:30:21 17 You know that. The stipulation is not enforceable

13:30:24 18 without being reduced to an order under Rule 29.
13:30:27 19 MR. WASSER: During the deposition of Toni
13:30:29 20 Smith, Mr. Lee made an unfounded and fabricated

13:30:32 21 allegation regarding interaction between me and
13:30:35 22 Ms. Smith. I picked Mr. Lee's camera up from the
13:30:38 23 table and used -- directed it toward the floor where
13:30:41 24 our feet were for the purpose of making a record as

13:30:44 25 to the location of our feet.
ROUGH DRAFT

14
13:30:46 1 Mr. Lee contends that that damaged his

13:30:48 2 camera. I disagree with that. But I will not do so
13:30:52 3 again without first requesting permission from
13:30:54 4 Mr. Lee.

13:30:55 5 Now, I would like to move forward with the
13:30:57 6 deposition now.
13:30:57 7 MR. LEE: Okay. Thank you.
13:31:01 8 MR. LEE: Please go ahead and swear in the

13:31:03 9 deponent, Madam Reporter.
13:31:05 10 BARBARA ELIZABETH PATRICK,
11 called as a witness by counsel for Plaintiff, being

12 first duly sworn, testified as follows:
Page 12
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13 EXAMINATION
14 BY MR. LEE:
13:31:15 15 Q. Thank you, Ms. Patrick.
13:31:17 16 May I ask if -- first of all, can you state
13:31:19 17 your full name for the record just once.

13:31:21 18 A. Sure. Barbara Elizabeth Patrick.
13:31:24 19 Q. Spelled how it sounds. Correct?
13:31:26 20 A. Yes.
13:31:27 21 Q. And is this your first deposition or have

13:31:29 22 you had --
13:31:29 23 A. No. I've been deposed before.
13:31:30 24 Q. Can you estimate how many times?
13:31:32 25 A. One -- one other time.

ROUGH DRAFT

15
13:31:34 1 Q. One other time.

13:31:35 2 And can you remember or recall how recently
13:31:38 3 that deposition was, when did it occur?
13:31:41 4 A. It occurred shortly before Thanksgiving of

13:31:43 5 2007.
13:31:44 6 Q. Relatively recently then?
13:31:45 7 A. Yes.
13:31:46 8 Q. Okay. And in that deposition were you being

13:31:48 9 deposed as a witness or as a party?
13:31:54 10 A. What do you mean as a party?
13:31:55 11 Q. Were you a plaintiff or a defendant in the

13:31:57 12 lawsuit in which you were being deposed?
13:31:59 13 MR. WASSER: Do you know?
13:31:59 14 THE WITNESS: What am I here?

13:32:02 15 MR. WASSER: You're a witness here.
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13:32:03 16 THE WITNESS: Okay. I'm a witness.
17 BY MR. LEE:
13:32:05 18 Q. I'm talking about your previous deposition.
13:32:07 19 A. I know. I assume it's the same thing.

13:32:09 20 Someone is suing the County, and they wanted my take
13:32:13 21 on it.
13:32:14 22 Q. I understand. Thank you.
13:32:15 23 Well, it sounds like you've had a recent
13:32:20 24 experience with a deposition, but I'm just going to

13:32:21 25 refresh your rules again just in case.
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16
13:32:24 1 The lady sitting to your right is the court
13:32:27 2 reporter. She will be transcribing every written --
13:32:30 3 I'm sorry. She'll be transcribing everything that's
13:32:33 4 said orally today. So she can only record oral
13:32:35 5 statements. So please -- when you respond to a

13:32:38 6 question, please refrain from shaking or nodding your
13:32:40 7 head or shrugging your shoulders or saying uh-huh or
13:32:44 8 huh-uh, something of that nature. It's very hard for

13:32:47 9 her to transcribe.
13:32:47 10 A. Okay.
13:32:48 11 Q. So please say yes, no clearly.
13:32:51 12 Also -- also for the reporter's sake, if I'm

13:32:54 13 asking a question I would ask that you refrain from
13:32:56 14 speaking until I am finished speaking. Not only is
13:33:00 15 that a point of courtesy, as I'm sure you're very

13:33:03 16 well aware, but it's also for the reporter's sake.
13:33:06 17 She can't record more than one person talking at a
13:33:09 18 time.
13:33:09 19 It's very important that you understand the
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13:33:11 20 questions I ask you today before you answer. If you
13:33:13 21 answer a question it will be presumed that you

13:33:15 22 understood the question. So before you answer please
13:33:18 23 make sure you understand. If you don't, please ask
13:33:21 24 me to rephrase or restate. I'll be happy to do that.

13:33:24 25 Do you understand?
ROUGH DRAFT

17
13:33:24 1 A. Yes.
13:33:25 2 Q. Okay. The oath you've been administered is
13:33:29 3 the same -- has the same force and effect as an oath
13:33:31 4 that would be administered to you in a court of law

13:33:34 5 before a judge and/or a jury. It requires you to
13:33:36 6 tell the truth and the whole truth as it would in a
13:33:40 7 court of law.
13:33:41 8 Do you understand that?
13:33:41 9 A. Yes.
13:33:43 10 Q. I'm entitled -- we are entitled to your best
13:33:45 11 estimates but not your guesses or speculation. If I
13:33:48 12 ask you to estimate the length of this table you

13:33:50 13 could say about 12 feet long, but if I asked you how
13:33:53 14 many cats I have at home, you'd have to say I don't

13:33:55 15 know, it would be a guess. We would only be
13:33:57 16 interested and are entitled to your estimates.
13:34:00 17 Do you understand?

13:34:00 18 A. Yes.
13:34:01 19 Q. Okay. Is there anything that prevents or
13:34:04 20 restricts you from giving your -- giving your fullest

13:34:08 21 and best testimony today?
13:34:09 22 A. No.
Page 15
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13:34:10 23 Q. Is there anything that you're aware that
13:34:12 24 have would prevent today's deposition from
13:34:14 25 proceeding?
ROUGH DRAFT

18
13:34:14 1 A. No.
13:34:16 2 Q. Have you -- without specifying what it was,
13:34:18 3 can you -- have you taken any medication, drugs, or

13:34:20 4 alcohol in the last 24 hours?
13:34:22 5 A. Yes.
13:34:23 6 Q. Okay. Is it anything that you -- that would
13:34:26 7 potentially affect your testimony today?
13:34:28 8 A. No.
13:34:28 9 Q. Ms. Patrick, did you discuss today's

13:34:33 10 deposition with anybody besides your attorney?
13:34:37 11 A. Huh-uh.
13:34:40 12 Q. Have you reviewed any documents in

13:34:40 13 preparation for today's deposition?
13:34:43 14 A. No, I have not.
13:34:43 15 Q. No.
13:34:44 16 Do you understand what this litigation is
13:34:47 17 about?
13:34:48 18 A. I believe so.
13:34:49 19 Q. Okay. Can you say in your own words what

13:34:51 20 you think it's about?
13:34:52 21 A. Dr. Jadwin is suing the County.
13:34:55 22 Q. Okay. But do you know the basis of the

13:34:59 23 lawsuit or not?
13:35:01 24 A. I believe it has something to do with when
13:35:05 25 he left -- left the County.

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Page 16
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19
13:35:08 1 Q. Okay. You were -- you were a member of the

13:35:15 2 Board of Supervisors for the County of Kern.
13:35:17 3 Correct?
13:35:17 4 A. Yes.
13:35:18 5 Q. Can you tell us for what -- the dates of
13:35:20 6 your term was or --

13:35:22 7 A. Sure. I was elected in '94, I took office
13:35:26 8 in '95, and I was in office through -- I believe it
13:35:32 9 was noon January 8th of 2007.

13:35:35 10 Q. So about a three-year term, then?
13:35:38 11 A. No.
13:35:39 12 Q. Or two years?

13:35:41 13 A. No. It was 12 years.
13:35:41 14 Q. 12 years? I must have misheard.
13:35:44 15 A. I'm sorry. Did I misstate?
13:35:44 16 MR. WASSER: '94 to 2008.
13:35:46 17 THE WITNESS: '94 to 2007.

18 MR. WASSER: Seven.
19 BY MR. LEE:
13:35:49 20 Q. I think I misheard. Thank you.

13:35:53 21 And were you at any point the chair of the
13:35:55 22 Board of Supervisors.

13:35:56 23 A. Yes, I was. Three times.
13:35:59 24 Q. Can you tell us the terms of your
13:36:01 25 chairmanship of the board?

ROUGH DRAFT

20
13:36:04 1 A. Sure. It would have been in 1996, 2001, and
Page 17
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13:36:09 2 2006.
13:36:11 3 Q. And these are, what, two-year terms?
13:36:13 4 A. Just one year.
13:36:18 5 Q. One-year term.

13:36:20 6 What -- how would you describe your -- the
13:36:26 7 job functions of your position as County supervisor?

13:36:32 8 A. How much time do you have? We did budgets,
13:36:37 9 we did meetings, we had committees that we served on.
13:36:41 10 I also represented the board on the valley air

13:36:44 11 district and also represented the valley on the
13:36:47 12 California air resources board. So I -- I had a lot
13:36:53 13 of responsibility.
13:36:56 14 Q. What were your job functions with respect
13:37:01 15 to -- bless you -- strike that.
13:37:01 16 What were your job functions as a member of
13:37:04 17 the Board of Supervisors with respect to Kern Medical

13:37:06 18 Center?
13:37:08 19 A. Oh, gosh. Approving the budget and
13:37:15 20 approving contracts with employees and making
13:37:22 21 decisions about ITS systems and telephone systems and

13:37:28 22 systems for medical records and so forth.
13:37:36 23 Q. Okay. You said employee contracts.
13:37:38 24 A. Um-hmm.
13:37:40 25 Q. What were your job functions as a board of
ROUGH DRAFT

21
13:37:43 1 supervisor member with respect to employee contracts?

13:37:46 2 A. There were some physicians, especially -- it
13:37:50 3 wasn't just contracts with the run of the mill

13:37:57 4 employee, so to speak, but we did have contracts with
13:38:00 5 physicians that we would approve.
Page 18
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13:38:02 6 Q. And what was your job function as a
13:38:05 7 supervisor -- member -- as a supervisor with respect

13:38:08 8 to employee -- a particular employee contract at Kern
13:38:11 9 Medical Center? Was it to review the contract? Was
13:38:13 10 it --
13:38:14 11 A. Um-hmm. And to vote to approve the
13:38:17 12 contract.
13:38:18 13 Q. And what about amendments to those
13:38:20 14 contracts?
13:38:20 15 A. I'm sure there were amendments as well.
13:38:23 16 Q. So your job function as a supervisor
13:38:25 17 included approving and reviewing amendments to
13:38:29 18 employment contracts of, what, key personnel at KMC?

13:38:34 19 A. Primarily physicians.
13:38:36 20 Q. But upper-level physicians and executives, I
13:38:41 21 would imagine. Correct?
13:38:44 22 A. Physicians are the ones that I remember.
13:38:47 23 Q. Okay. And what -- what were the distinct

13:38:54 24 job functions associated with being a chair of the
13:38:56 25 Board of Supervisors, distinct from being just a

ROUGH DRAFT

22
13:39:00 1 regular supervisor?

13:39:01 2 A. Primarily running the meeting and also there
13:39:03 3 was more committee work that was assigned to the
13:39:06 4 members -- to the chairmen in any given year.

13:39:25 5 Q. As part -- did your job duties as a
13:39:30 6 supervisor include attending regularly meetings of
13:39:33 7 joint conference committee --
13:39:34 8 A. Yes.
Page 19
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13:39:35 9 Q. -- at Kern Medical Center?
13:39:36 10 Yes?
13:39:36 11 A. Yes.
13:39:40 12 Q. Did you regularly vote at the joint

13:39:42 13 conference committee meetings at Kern Medical Center?
13:39:47 14 A. I would say we usually voted for sure on the

13:39:50 15 minutes of the last meeting. There may or may not be
13:39:53 16 things that we actually voted on during the joint
13:39:56 17 conference meeting.

13:39:57 18 Q. But when there was something up for a vote
13:40:00 19 at the joint conference committee meetings at Kern
13:40:03 20 Medical Center you did, in fact, vote?

13:40:04 21 A. If I was in attendance, yes.
13:40:09 22 Q. If you could -- well, how often does the
13:40:13 23 joint conference committee meet at Kern Medical
13:40:15 24 Center? Is it once a month?

13:40:17 25 A. Pretty much once a month. Occasionally they
ROUGH DRAFT

23
13:40:20 1 had trouble getting a quorum and we did not meet, but
13:40:22 2 I believe it's a Jake owe requirement that we meet on
13:40:25 3 a monthly basis.
13:40:33 4 Q. So you were attending joint conference

13:40:35 5 committee meetings on a monthly basis throughout your
13:40:38 6 tenure as a supervisor?
13:40:40 7 A. No.
13:40:41 8 Q. No?
13:40:41 9 A. Just when I was one of two board members
13:40:45 10 that was appointed to join the conference.
13:40:51 11 Q. Okay. How were these two board members

13:40:53 12 appointed to attend the joint conference committee
Page 20
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13:40:55 13 meetings?
13:40:56 14 A. Typically it was the chairman and vice

13:41:01 15 chairman of the board but there were times when
13:41:01 16 another member relinquished that and asked me or
13:41:05 17 another member to serve in their place.

13:41:09 18 Q. But typically it was the chair and the vice
13:41:11 19 chair of the Board of Supervisors?
13:41:13 20 A. Typically, yes.
13:41:14 21 Q. So in 2006 when you were the chair of the

13:41:19 22 Board of Supervisors you were attending the joint
13:41:23 23 conference committees in your role as a chair of the
13:41:25 24 Board of Supervisors?
13:41:27 25 A. I'm sure I attended most of them.

ROUGH DRAFT

24
13:41:32 1 Q. Okay. Do you recall at a joint -- do you

13:41:37 2 recall the joint conference committee meeting
13:41:39 3 occurring on July 10, 2006, at which Dr. Jadwin's
13:41:43 4 removal from chairmanship of the pathology department

13:41:46 5 was considered and voted upon by the JCC?
13:41:49 6 A. I couldn't verify that it was on that date,
13:41:52 7 but I do remember the discussion, yes.
13:41:54 8 Q. Well, I'll represent to you that the joint

13:41:56 9 conference committee met on July 10, 2000 -- did I
13:41:59 10 say eight? I meant six -- 2006 to vote to consider
13:42:03 11 and to approve removal of Dr. Jadwin from chair of

13:42:06 12 the department of pathology at Kern Medical Center.
13:42:11 13 Did you vote on Dr. Jadwin's removal from
13:42:15 14 chair?
13:42:15 15 A. I imagine that I did.
Page 21
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13:42:17 16 Q. You have no reason to believe you did not.
13:42:19 17 Right?
13:42:19 18 A. I have no reason to believe I did not.
13:42:21 19 Q. Okay. Do you recall how you voted? Was it

13:42:25 20 for, against? Did you --
13:42:27 21 A. I imagine I would have voted in favor of it.

13:42:29 22 Q. Favor of it.
13:42:30 23 Okay. What I'm interested in knowing today
13:42:33 24 is the basis for your decision to approve or to vote

13:42:36 25 in favor of removal of Dr. Jadwin.
ROUGH DRAFT

25
13:42:39 1 What did you base that decision on?
13:42:41 2 MR. WASSER: As an elected County
13:42:46 3 supervisor, Supervisor Patrick has a legislative
13:42:49 4 immunity which extends to the rationale for votes
13:42:52 5 that she cast in her capacity as supervisor. That

13:42:56 6 immunity is based upon separation of powers. So it
13:43:01 7 is Ms. Patrick's -- I mention this as a privilege
13:43:04 8 that she holds, it's personal to her as a local

13:43:07 9 legislator. If she wishes to waive that privilege
13:43:11 10 and answer the questions it is a privilege she holds
13:43:14 11 herself. If she wishes to assert the privilege, she
13:43:18 12 can assert the privilege and can decline to answer

13:43:23 13 questions regarding the reasons she had in her mind
13:43:27 14 for votes that she cast in her capacity as a local
13:43:30 15 legislator.
13:43:31 16 MR. LEE: Okay. I'm going to state that --
13:43:33 17 MR. WASSER: And that is the separation of
13:43:35 18 powers privilege. It's not based upon state statute.

13:43:40 19 It's based upon the constitution.
Page 22
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13:43:42 20 MR. LEE: I'm going to state that that's --
13:43:44 21 that is correct, that it's an immunity from liability

13:43:47 22 but --
13:43:47 23 MR. WASSER: No. It's a liabil- -- it's
13:43:49 24 privilege from testimony. I'm not talking about

13:43:51 25 liability, counsel. We're talking about it's a
ROUGH DRAFT

26
13:43:54 1 testimonial privilege. It's not an immunity from

13:43:59 2 liability. That's different. It's based upon
13:44:01 3 separation of power. It's been recognized by state
13:44:04 4 and federal courts. It's a privilege that

13:44:06 5 Ms. Patrick holds that's personal to her, and she's
13:44:09 6 able to waive it or assert it based upon her choice
13:44:12 7 as a local legislator.
13:44:15 8 MR. LEE: So if I understand you correctly,
13:44:16 9 you're not citing to any statutes; you're citing to

13:44:19 10 the U.S. Constitution?
13:44:20 11 MR. WASSER: This is a court-created
13:44:22 12 privilege. It's not based upon state law, counsel.

13:44:26 13 It's call the legislative privilege. It's not an
13:44:30 14 immunity from liability. It's a separation of

13:44:33 15 powers. The judiciary does not have the power to
13:44:37 16 inquire into the motives or reasons that legislators
13:44:42 17 vote in certain ways.

13:44:44 18 Again, the privilege is personal to
13:44:46 19 Ms. Patrick. She may assert it or she may waive it.
13:44:49 20 It is up to her. You've asked her to state the

13:44:53 21 reasons for a vote she cast in her capacity as a
13:44:57 22 County supervisor, hence, the privilege is at issue.
Page 23
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13:45:00 23 MR. LEE: Okay. I'm just going to state
13:45:01 24 that I would understand that there is a legislative
13:45:04 25 privilege, but there's no legislation occurring here.
ROUGH DRAFT

27
13:45:06 1 There's no law being passed.

13:45:08 2 MR. WASSER: She is a legislator. She was
13:45:10 3 on the JCC by virtue of her election to office as a

13:45:15 4 local legislator, Counsel. You don't need to debate
13:45:18 5 it. I'm simply stating that's the law. She holds
13:45:21 6 the privilege. She can answer or not, if she
13:45:23 7 chooses.
13:45:32 8 (Attorney Karen Barnes not present.)
13:45:32 9 BY MR. LEE:

13:45:32 10 Q. Ms. Patrick, so we've had this colloquy
13:45:35 11 between myself and Mr. Wasser and suffice it to say
13:45:38 12 we don't agree with his position, but we respect his

13:45:40 13 opinion.
13:45:42 14 Do you want the question read back to you
13:45:44 15 again, Ms. Patrick?
13:45:45 16 A. Please.
13:45:45 17 MR. LEE: Madam Reporter, would you repeat

13:45:48 18 the question.

13:46:14 20 THE WITNESS: He wasn't there.
13:46:20 21 BY MR. LEE:
13:46:21 22 Q. So simply physical unavailability from the

13:46:25 23 workplace at Kern Medical Center. Is that correct?
13:46:27 24 A. Over an extended period of time.
13:46:33 25 Q. Okay. You've stated physical

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28
13:46:34 1 unavailability. He wasn't there. What other bases

13:46:41 2 did you base your decision on?
13:46:43 3 A. Well, it was my feeling that we needed to

13:46:45 4 have a chair in place, and he was not there and had
13:46:52 5 not been there for an extended period of time.
13:46:54 6 Q. I understand. So physical unavailability

13:46:56 7 for an extended period of time.
13:46:58 8 A. Yes.
13:46:59 9 Q. Is that the sole reason then that you based

13:47:00 10 your vote on or are there others?
13:47:02 11 A. Yes.
13:47:03 12 Q. Yes.
13:47:04 13 Okay. Now, regarding the physical
13:47:06 14 unavailability of Dr. Jadwin, are you aware of the
13:47:11 15 reasons for Dr. Jadwin's physical unavailability at
13:47:14 16 Kern Medical Center?
13:47:16 17 A. Why don't you refresh my memory.

13:47:18 18 Q. Well, I mean, actually, it's -- I'm just
13:47:20 19 asking whether you have any recollection of knowing
13:47:22 20 why Dr. Jadwin was physically absent from the

13:47:25 21 hospital. If you don't recall --
13:47:27 22 A. He was taking leave.

13:47:29 23 Q. Medical leave. Isn't that correct?
13:47:31 24 A. Yes.
13:47:34 25 Q. And how did you come into this knowledge

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29
13:47:37 1 that -- of Dr. Jadwin's physical unavailability? How
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13:47:40 2 did you learn this?
13:47:42 3 A. Oh, I'm certain that I was apprised of it at
13:47:47 4 joint conference if not elsewhere.
13:47:49 5 Q. Besides joint conference committee where

13:47:51 6 else do you recall learning about Dr. Jadwin's
13:47:55 7 physical unavailability at Kern Medical Center?

13:47:57 8 A. I don't actually have a recollection.
13:47:59 9 Q. Okay.
13:48:00 10 A. But I can't take it back to a specific

13:48:04 11 instance at joint conference.
13:48:07 12 Q. Okay. But as far as you can recall, you
13:48:09 13 first learned of Dr. Jadwin's -- well, you learned of

13:48:12 14 Dr. Jadwin's physical unavailability at KMC through
13:48:15 15 some contact at the joint conference?
13:48:17 16 A. That would be my assumption.
13:48:21 17 (Attorney Karen Barnes now present.)

13:48:21 18 BY MR. LEE:
13:48:22 19 Q. Okay. And is that -- I'm sorry.
13:48:30 20 Go ahead.
13:48:32 21 MR. LEE: Mark, do you want to get that for

13:48:33 22 her, please?
13:48:44 23 THE WITNESS: Let the record show I have not
13:48:46 24 had one today so --

13:48:48 25 MR. LEE: We won't tell your doctor.
ROUGH DRAFT

30
13:48:51 1 BY MR. LEE:

13:48:52 2 Q. Okay. Ms. Patrick, so you say you assume
13:48:54 3 you learned of Dr. Jadwin's unavailability for

13:48:58 4 medical leave. Is that correct? That you learned of
13:49:00 5 his unavailability of medical leave through the joint
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13:49:03 6 conference committee?
13:49:04 7 A. Most likely.

13:49:05 8 Q. Most likely.
13:49:06 9 But you don't have a specific recollection
13:49:07 10 one way or another?

13:49:08 11 A. No, I do not.
13:49:09 12 Q. Okay. And you recall at all who told you or
13:49:15 13 where you learned this -- who you learned this from,
13:49:17 14 the circumstances of Dr. Jadwin's unavailability from

13:49:23 15 medical leave?
13:49:24 16 A. I probably learned it from Peter Bryan.
13:49:26 17 Q. Okay.
13:49:27 18 MR. WASSER: Don't guess.

13:49:32 19 BY MR. LEE:
13:49:33 20 Q. Okay. But again when you say probably,
13:49:36 21 that's not based on any specific recollection?
13:49:37 22 A. No.
13:49:38 23 Q. You're just thinking back and saying who

13:49:41 24 would have been the likely person to tell me most
13:49:43 25 likely --
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31
1 A. Yes.
13:49:43 2 Q. -- would have been Peter Bryan?
13:49:44 3 A. Yes.
13:49:45 4 Q. But you don't recall a conversation?

13:49:47 5 A. Absolutely not.
13:49:47 6 Q. Okay. Okay. Well, I imagine you must be
13:49:50 7 very busy as a supervisor. You can't remember every
13:49:53 8 conversation you've ever had. Right?
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13:49:55 9 A. That's right. And it was quite some time
13:49:56 10 ago.
13:49:57 11 Q. Sure. Sure. Understandable.
13:49:58 12 Now, are you aware of what the California

13:50:05 13 Family Rights Act is?
13:50:06 14 A. No.
13:50:08 15 Q. Are you aware of what the Family & Medical
13:50:10 16 Leave Act is?
13:50:14 17 A. I've heard of it. I could not tell you

13:50:16 18 exactly what it -- we have attorneys in the County
13:50:20 19 who tell us exactly what it means and does.
13:50:25 20 Q. So in terms of ensuring that Dr. Jadwin's

13:50:28 21 removal from chair for medical leave -- for
13:50:32 22 absence -- let me rephrase that. Strike that.
13:50:35 23 In terms of Dr. Jadwin's removal for
13:50:38 24 physical unavailability due to medical leave, how did

13:50:42 25 you go about ensuring that that removal would comply
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32
13:50:45 1 with applicable law?

13:50:47 2 A. Again, we have attorneys who advise us on
13:50:52 3 things like that.
13:50:53 4 Q. Okay. Now, do you recall whether Karen

13:50:57 5 Barnes was present at the --
13:50:58 6 A. I do not.
7 Q. Do not.
13:50:58 8 Do you recall whether any legal counsel was

13:51:00 9 typically present at JCC meetings?
13:51:03 10 A. Typically, yes.
13:51:04 11 Q. Okay. So at the removal -- just for the

13:51:08 12 sake of brevity, if you don't mind, I'm just going to
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13:51:11 13 call the July 10, 2006, joint conference committee
13:51:14 14 meeting at which Dr. Jadwin removal was considered,

13:51:18 15 voted on, and approved, I'm going to call that the
13:51:20 16 removal meeting.
13:51:21 17 Is that okay with you?

13:51:23 18 A. That's fine.
13:51:23 19 Q. That will just speed things along.
13:51:25 20 Now, at the removal meeting do you recall
13:51:28 21 whether any legal counsel was present?

13:51:30 22 A. I do not recall that. That was over two
13:51:32 23 years ago or more.
13:51:34 24 Q. But you would imagine -- you would
13:51:37 25 believe -- well, strike that.

ROUGH DRAFT

33
13:51:38 1 Okay. Now, do you recall any discussion at

13:51:40 2 the removal meeting occurring regarding the issue of
13:51:45 3 Dr. Jadwin's removal complying with applicable law?
13:51:51 4 A. I do not recall.

13:51:54 5 Q. Don't recall.
13:51:55 6 Do you recall ever seeking out advice of
13:51:59 7 legal counsel to inquire about compliance with
13:52:04 8 applicable law in connection with Dr. Jadwin's

13:52:06 9 removal?
13:52:07 10 A. I do not recall.
13:52:09 11 Q. Don't recall.

13:52:10 12 When a chair is being removed -- well, how
13:52:13 13 often is that -- how often in your tenure have you
13:52:16 14 voted on removal of a department chair at Kern

13:52:19 15 Medical Center? Is that a common occurrence?
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13:52:22 16 A. No.
13:52:22 17 Q. So would you say it's, to your recollection,
13:52:26 18 it's only happened once, Dr. Jadwin's case?
13:52:26 19 A. There have been other chairmen who left, but

13:52:30 20 I don't remember the circumstances.
13:52:33 21 Q. Okay. Well, I'm talking about not people

13:52:35 22 leaving. I'm talking about removal of a sitting
13:52:38 23 chair from a department at Kern Medical Center.
13:52:39 24 A. Um-hmm.
13:52:40 25 Q. To your recollection, how many have you
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34
13:52:43 1 become aware of during your tenure as supervisor?
13:52:48 2 MR. WASSER: Who were removed as opposed to
13:52:50 3 retiring?
13:52:51 4 MR. LEE: Removed.
13:52:53 5 THE WITNESS: I don't remember any.

13:52:55 6 BY MR. LEE:
13:52:56 7 Q. So to your recollection Dr. Jadwin's the
13:52:59 8 only case where you became aware of a department

13:53:03 9 chair of Kern Medical Center actually being removed
13:53:06 10 from chairmanship. Correct?
13:53:09 11 A. You know, I was on that board for 12 years
13:53:12 12 and I've been off the board now for a year and a
13 half.
14 Q. Um-hmm.
13:53:15 15 A. So we're going pretty far back into history.

13:53:18 16 Q. Um-hmm.
13:53:20 17 A. And so it's difficult for me to say
13:53:22 18 absolutely that that is -- that he is the only

13:53:24 19 individual --
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13:53:24 20 Q. Sure.
13:53:25 21 A. -- that that happened with.

13:53:26 22 Q. But to your recollection you can't think of
13:53:28 23 any other cases?
13:53:29 24 A. At this moment, no.

13:53:31 25 Q. Are there any documents you can think that
ROUGH DRAFT

35
13:53:33 1 have would help -- help you to remember if there were

13:53:36 2 any other cases --
13:53:37 3 A. No.
13:53:37 4 Q. -- of department chairs at KMC being

13:53:40 5 removed?
13:53:40 6 A. No.
13:53:52 7 Q. Ms. -- I don't know if I should refer to you
13:53:55 8 as Supervisor Patrick or Ms. Patrick.
13:53:57 9 A. You can call me anything you want.

13:53:59 10 Q. Okay. Ms. Patrick is probably easier for
13:54:02 11 me?
13:54:02 12 A. That's just fine.

13:54:03 13 Q. Ms. Patrick, I just wanted to remind you
13:54:06 14 that we're not asking for you to testify beyond

13:54:08 15 anything you recall. If you don't recall it, please
13:54:10 16 don't feel pressure to provide an answer. That's not
13:54:13 17 what our aim is. Certainly not to -- we're not here
13:54:15 18 to put words in your mouth or to force you to say
13:54:18 19 something you don't want to.
20 A. Um-hmm.
13:54:19 21 Q. If you don't remember it, just say I don't
13:54:20 22 remember it. Okay? I just want to reassure you
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13:54:23 23 about that.
13:54:23 24 A. Um-hmm.
13:54:32 25 Q. So do you have any understanding about
ROUGH DRAFT

36
13:54:34 1 medical leave rights in California?

13:54:39 2 A. I think I have some understanding of it.
13:54:41 3 Q. Okay. Everyone's got different

13:54:43 4 recollection -- or understanding of what it is.
13:54:45 5 What's your understanding of medical leave laws in
13:54:48 6 California?
13:54:48 7 MR. WASSER: All of them in one question?
13:54:50 8 MR. LEE: There's only one, I believe.
13:54:54 9 MR. WASSER: That's debatable.

13:54:56 10 THE WITNESS: I -- I'm not an attorney and I
13:55:01 11 don't think I do a very good job of explaining.
13:55:08 12 BY MR. LEE:

13:55:09 13 Q. Sure. That's fine.
13:55:10 14 Now, did you ever -- you say you based your
13:55:14 15 decision -- at the removal meeting you based your
13:55:19 16 vote based upon Dr. Jadwin's unavailability and you
13:55:21 17 say -- well, you can't remember exactly how you

13:55:24 18 learned about Dr. Jadwin's unavailability due to
13:55:27 19 medical leave.

13:55:28 20 Do you recall Mr. Bryan presenting the issue
13:55:32 21 of Dr. Jadwin's removal at the removal meeting?
13:55:37 22 A. Yes, I do.

13:55:38 23 Q. Yes, you do.
13:55:39 24 Okay. Mr. Bryan at the time was the CEO of
13:55:42 25 Kern Medical Center. Correct?

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37
13:55:43 1 A. Correct.
13:55:45 2 Q. Do you recall how Mr. Bryan communicated the
13:55:48 3 issue of Dr. Jadwin's removal to the JCC at the

13:55:51 4 removal meeting?
13:55:52 5 A. Not specifically, but I do remember that he
13:55:54 6 introduced the topic.

13:55:57 7 Q. Introduced the topic.
13:55:58 8 Okay. And was Mr. Bryan seeking -- it
13:56:01 9 was -- Dr. Jadwin was -- his removal was being voted
13:56:05 10 upon based pursuant to Mr. Bryan's recommendation as
13:56:09 11 the COO of Kern Medical Center. Is that correct?
13:56:12 12 A. Yes.
13:56:14 13 Q. Are you -- do you have any knowledge of the
13:56:15 14 bylaws of Kern Medical Center?
13:56:17 15 A. Yes.
13:56:18 16 Q. Now, the bylaws of the Kern Medical Center,
13:56:21 17 they are approved and ratified by the Board of

13:56:24 18 Supervisors. Is that correct?
13:56:25 19 A. I believe so.
13:56:27 20 Q. So do you have any recollection of the

13:56:30 21 bylaws for Kern Medical Center ever coming up for
13:56:32 22 ratification vote before the Board of Supervisors?

13:56:38 23 A. I believe they did.
13:56:39 24 Q. They did.
13:56:41 25 No other body that you can think of is

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38
13:56:42 1 responsible for ratifying or approving the bylaws for
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13:56:46 2 KMC, are there -- is there?
13:56:48 3 A. I actually -- well, I shouldn't guess.
13:56:51 4 Q. Do not guess. Thank you.
13:56:52 5 So to your recollection or understanding the

13:56:55 6 answer is no?
13:56:57 7 A. Repeat the question.

13:56:58 8 Q. Sure.
13:56:59 9 To your understanding and knowledge --
13:57:02 10 and/or knowledge, was the Board of Supervisors the

13:57:05 11 only body responsible for ratifying and approving
13:57:09 12 bylaws for Kern Medical Center?
13:57:11 13 A. I don't know. And the reason I say that is

13:57:14 14 I don't know if the medical staff was part of that
13:57:19 15 decision as well, if they recommended the bylaws to
13:57:23 16 the board. I don't remember the exact process.
13:57:27 17 Q. But the Board of Supervisors ultimate

13:57:33 18 authority for almost -- actually every decision at
13:57:35 19 Kern Medical Center actually resides with the Board
13:57:40 20 of Supervisors. Correct?
13:57:40 21 A. Yes.
13:57:40 22 Q. The Board of Supervisors may delegate
13:57:42 23 certain decision-making functions and tasks to
13:57:45 24 subordinate bodies within Kern Medical Center, but

13:57:47 25 they all ultimately answer to the Board of
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39
13:57:50 1 Supervisors. Correct?

13:57:50 2 A. Correct.
13:57:51 3 Q. The joint conference committee at Kern

13:57:57 4 Medical Center was one of those subordinate bodies
13:57:57 5 that ultimately answer to the Board of Supervisors.
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13:58:00 6 Correct?
13:58:05 7 I'm sorry. Is that a yes, Ms. Patrick?

13:58:08 8 A. I'm not certain.
13:58:11 9 Q. You're not certain?
13:58:12 10 A. Repeat the question.

13:58:15 11 Q. Sure. Sure.
13:58:18 12 Did the joint conference committee, to your
13:58:20 13 knowledge and understanding, ultimately answer to the
13:58:23 14 Board of Supervisors?

13:58:26 15 MR. WASSER: As a body?
13:58:28 16 THE WITNESS: I truly do not know exactly
13:58:32 17 what you mean by that.
13:58:33 18 BY MR. LEE:

13:58:34 19 Q. Sure. Sure.
13:58:34 20 Now, the joint conference committee's
13:58:38 21 decision-making authority, was it delegated to it by
13:58:43 22 the Board of Supervisors at some point?
13:58:45 23 A. I think it's a Jake owe requirement that

13:58:48 24 there be a joint conference committee.
13:58:51 25 Q. I see.
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40
13:58:51 1 A. So I'm a little bit uncertain of where Jake

13:58:57 2 owe enters into it and where the Board of Supervisors
13:59:00 3 enters into it.
13:59:01 4 Q. I understand.
13:59:02 5 So would it be fair to say or accurate to
13:59:06 6 say -- and if you don't agree just don't agree -- but
13:59:08 7 is it fair to say that the joint conference committee
13:59:12 8 was set up under the board of supervisor's authority
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13:59:16 9 and auspices in order to comply with Jake owe
13:59:20 10 requirements?
13:59:23 11 MR. WASSER: Don't guess.
13:59:24 12 BY MR. LEE:

13:59:24 13 Q. If you don't know you don't know.
13:59:26 14 A. I truly don't know.

13:59:28 15 Q. I understand. Probably most of these are
13:59:29 16 very lawyerly questions so I understand that.
13:59:30 17 A. They're very what?

13:59:31 18 Q. Very lawyerly questions.
13:59:33 19 A. Lawyerly. Sounds that way right now. Yes.
13:59:40 20 Q. Okay. That's fine.

13:59:40 21 But ultimately it was the Board of
13:59:42 22 Supervisors that was responsible for -- I mean, the
13:59:47 23 Board of Supervisors owns and administers and
13:59:49 24 operates the Kern Medical Center. Is that correct?

13:59:51 25 A. Yes.
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41
13:59:58 1 Q. And do you recall -- when Kern Medical

14:00:01 2 Center's bylaws were being approved and ratified, do
14:00:05 3 you recall any discussion occurring regarding due
14:00:12 4 process?
14:00:13 5 A. I don't recall.
14:00:14 6 Q. Are you familiar with the term due process,
14:00:18 7 procedural due process?
14:00:19 8 A. Yes.
14:00:20 9 Q. Okay. Well, I'll submit to you that
14:00:21 10 procedural due process basically means notice and an
14:00:25 11 opportunity to be heard. That's about the shortest

14:00:28 12 definition I can think of for due process.
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14:00:32 13 So if someone is going to be subject to some
14:00:34 14 kind of deprivation of a right under the constitution

14:00:37 15 they have -- they have a right to be -- to have
14:00:39 16 notice and an opportunity to be heard on that
14:00:41 17 deprivation.
14:00:43 18 Do you recall this issue coming up at all
14:00:46 19 with respect to Dr. Jadwin's removal at the removal
14:00:49 20 meeting?
14:00:59 21 A. I do not remember specifics of a discussion.

14:01:03 22 Q. So no recollection one way or the other
14:01:05 23 then?
14:01:09 25 Q. Now, Dr. Jadwin's removal from chairmanship,

ROUGH DRAFT

42
14:01:11 1 sitting here today, do you believe that -- that that

14:01:16 2 removal would have entitled Dr. Jadwin to a notice of
14:01:22 3 meeting and an opportunity to be heard prior to -- or
14:01:25 4 after the meeting?

14:01:26 5 MR. WASSER: That calls for a legal
14:01:27 6 conclusion which is beyond the witness' expertise.
14:01:31 7 BY MR. LEE:
14:01:31 8 Q. Your attorney's objected but you can still

14:01:33 9 answer it.
14:01:34 10 A. Well, no, I would have to -- I would have to
14:01:36 11 agree with what he has said.

14:01:39 12 Q. So you don't have any opinion one way or the
14:01:41 13 other as to whether you feel someone who's being
14:01:46 14 removed from department chair is entitled to some

14:01:48 15 kind of notice and opportunity to be heard either
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14:01:51 16 before or after the removal?
14:01:52 17 MR. WASSER: That's a different question
14:01:53 18 from the one you asked her a moment ago. You asked
14:01:56 19 her whether he was entitled. That presupposes law.

14:01:59 20 Now you're asking her about personal preference.
14:02:01 21 That's a different question.

14:02:01 22 BY MR. LEE:
14:02:02 23 Q. Do you understand the question, Ms. Patrick?
14:02:06 24 A. Not really. Why don't you ask me that

14:02:08 25 question again.
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43
14:02:09 1 Q. Sure. Actually, I'm going to have the court
14:02:10 2 reporter read it back, if you don't mind.
14:02:34 4 THE WITNESS: I don't remember at what point
14:02:37 5 Dr. Jadwin was informed of this. Either before or

14:02:40 6 after I couldn't tell you.
7 BY MR. LEE:
14:02:42 8 Q. Um-hmm.
14:02:43 9 Well, the question I'm asking is a little
14:02:45 10 bit different. Did you think he should be told
14:02:47 11 before or after -- well, actually before.

14:02:50 12 Do you think Dr. Jadwin should have been
14:02:51 13 told before the removal meeting that it was a vote
14:02:56 14 that was going to occur to remove Dr. Jadwin from

14:03:00 15 chairmanship?
14:03:01 16 MR. WASSER: That's vague. Your use of the
14:03:02 17 word should is vague. First of all, it presupposes

14:03:05 18 that he wasn't, which there's no foundation for, and
14:03:07 19 second of all, it's ambiguous as to whether using

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14:03:11 20 should as asking the witness for a personal
14:03:14 21 preference or whether you're intending it to infer

14:03:16 22 some kind of legal requirement.
14:03:19 23 Q. The attorney's just objected. Do you
14:03:21 24 understand the question or do you want it read back?

14:03:23 25 A. I have no idea. I do not recall what the --
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44
14:03:33 1 the continuum was as this was occurring.

14:03:37 2 Q. Okay. Actually, I guess it was more of a
14:03:39 3 yes or no question.
14:03:40 4 Do you want me to ask the question again,

14:03:42 5 Ms. Patrick?
14:03:45 6 A. Your question implies to me that he was not
14:03:49 7 informed, and I don't know that to be accurate.
14:03:52 8 Q. Okay. No. Actually, that's not correct.
14:03:54 9 But I can restate the question, if you'd like.

14:03:58 10 Okay. Regardless of whether he was informed
14:03:58 11 or not, my question is, Ms. Patrick, do you think
14:04:01 12 Dr. Jadwin should have been notified of the removal
14:04:04 13 meeting vote to remove him from chairmanship of

14:04:08 14 pathology before the removal meeting?
14:04:09 15 MR. WASSER: And same objection. Your use

14:04:11 16 of the word should is ambiguous. Are you asking her
14:04:14 17 to express a personal preference as to what she
14:04:17 18 thinks ought to happen in an ideal world or are you

14:04:19 19 asking her whether the law requires it?
14:04:21 20 MR. LEE: I'm going to have to state that
14:04:22 21 Mr. Wasser's engaging in speaking objections and that

14:04:24 22 he's coaching the witness.
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14:04:25 23 MR. WASSER: I'm not coaching the witness,
14:04:26 24 Counsel. I'm objecting.
14:04:26 25 MR. LEE: You are engaging in speaking
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45
14:04:28 1 objections. You're entitled under FRCP 34 to just

14:04:30 2 state your objections briefly. You're engaging in
14:04:33 3 long dialogue.

14:04:34 4 MR. WASSER: I am explaining the purpose,
14:04:36 5 the point of ambiguity in the question is your use of
14:04:39 6 the word should. It's amenable to two
14:04:41 7 interpretations.
14:04:42 8 MR. LEE: All you need to do is say
14:04:43 9 objection, ambiguous, and leave it at that.

14:04:44 10 MR. WASSER: It wouldn't help you if I just
14:04:46 11 said that. Your use of the word should is the
14:04:48 12 problem.
14:04:48 13 MR. LEE: Mr. Wasser, I certainly don't need
14:04:50 14 your help, but I appreciate your offer.
14:04:52 15 I'm going to ask again that Mr. Wasser not
14:04:53 16 engage in speaking objections and that if this
14:04:55 17 continues we will have to adjourn the deposition for

14:04:58 18 the third or fourth time today.
14:04:59 19 MR. WASSER: The word should is still

14:05:01 20 amenable to two interpretations, counsel.
14:05:03 21 MR. LEE: Yet again you engage in speaking
14:05:06 22 objections. You're coaching the witness.

23 MR. WASSER: I'm not coaching the witness.
14:05:06 24 MR. LEE: You can state your objection. You
14:05:08 25 can state objection ambiguous, and leave it at that.

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46
14:05:10 1 Mr. Wasser, are you going to continue with speaking

14:05:12 2 objections or not? You're coaching the witness.
14:05:14 3 MR. WASSER: I'm not coaching the witness,

14:05:15 4 counsel.
14:05:17 5 BY MR. LEE:
14:05:18 6 Q. Okay. Ms. Patrick, I'm going to ask you the

14:05:22 7 question again. I guess -- I'm not sure it's the
14:05:24 8 third or fourth time now.
14:05:26 9 But in your opinion, to your understanding,
14:05:28 10 regardless of whether Dr. Jadwin was told or not, do
14:05:31 11 you think Dr. Jadwin should have been told -- should
14:05:33 12 have been given notice --
14:05:35 13 A. I think --
14:05:36 14 Q. Can I just finish?
14:05:36 15 -- should have been given notice of the

14:05:38 16 removal meeting vote to remove him from chairmanship
14:05:42 17 of pathology prior to the removal meeting?
14:05:44 18 A. I think the law should be followed.

14:05:47 19 Q. What does that mean in the context of this
14:05:49 20 question?
14:05:50 21 A. I think that whatever is the appropriate
14:05:55 22 law, that should be followed. And whether it is a

14:05:58 23 requirement to notify him ahead of time, I do not
14:06:01 24 know.
14:06:02 25 Q. You do not know?

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47
14:06:03 1 A. And I don't know that he wasn't notified at
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14:06:06 2 the time. I couldn't tell you that.
14:06:07 3 Q. Well, would it surprise you if I told you
14:06:11 4 that Dr. Jadwin was not notified of the removal --
14:06:15 5 I'm not saying it's true or not. I'm just saying
14:06:17 6 would it surprise you if I told you that Dr. Jadwin
14:06:19 7 was not informed of the removal meeting vote prior to

14:06:23 8 his removal from chairmanship? Would that surprise
14:06:26 9 you?
14:06:26 10 MR. WASSER: Do not suggest things to the

14:06:27 11 witness that are not true, Counsel.
14:06:29 12 BY MR. LEE:

14:06:29 13 Q. Would that surprise you?
14:06:31 14 A. I don't know if he was informed or not.
14:06:34 15 Q. Okay. Ms. Patrick, that's not the answer --

14:06:37 16 that's not my question, actually. I'll ask the
14:06:39 18 A. Okay.
14:06:40 19 Q. The question is would it surprise you if
14:06:43 20 Dr. Jad- -- if you learned -- if I told you right now

14:06:46 21 that Dr. Jadwin was not actually informed of the JCC
14:06:50 22 removal meeting vote to remove him from chairmanship
14:06:54 23 prior to the removal meeting?

14:06:56 24 A. It would surprise me if the law was not
14:07:00 25 followed.
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48
14:07:02 1 Q. Ms. Patrick that's not an answer to my

14:07:04 2 question.
14:07:05 3 A. That's the answer you're going to get.

14:07:07 4 Q. Ms. Patrick, are you refusing to answer my
14:07:09 5 question?
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14:07:09 6 MR. WASSER: She's answered.
14:07:10 7 THE WITNESS: I've answered your question.

14:07:12 8 BY MR. LEE:
14:07:14 9 Q. No, Ms. Patrick. You're stating that it
14:07:16 10 would surprise you if the law were not followed.

14:07:18 11 That's not the -- I wasn't asking you if the law were
14:07:20 12 followed or were not followed. I'm asking a
14:07:22 13 different question.
14:07:23 14 Do you want me to restate the question

14:07:25 15 again?
14:07:25 16 MR. WASSER: She's answered it, Counsel.
17 THE WITNESS: I've answered the question.
18 BY MR. LEE:
14:07:26 19 Q. No, you have not.
14:07:28 20 I'm sorry, Ms. Patrick. I'm going to have
14:07:29 21 to admonish you. Are you refusing to answer my
14:07:32 22 question?
14:07:32 23 MR. WASSER: Do not --

14:07:33 24 THE WITNESS: I am not refusing to answer
14:07:34 25 your question. I have answered your question.

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49
14:07:36 1 MR. WASSER: Do not intimidate the witness,

14:07:38 2 counsel. Ask your next question and move on.
3 BY MR. LEE:
14:07:41 4 Q. Well, I'm going to have to give you the

14:07:42 5 admonition then, Ms. Patrick. I don't feel you've
14:07:46 6 answered my question, actually, and plaintiff is
14:07:49 7 entitled in this litigation and in this deposition to
14:07:52 8 answers to their -- to his questions. If you don't
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14:07:57 9 answer my question, we will go to the court with a
14:08:00 10 motion to compel for a reconvening of this deposition
14:08:03 11 so we can get an answer to our questions. And we
14:08:05 12 will also possibly seek imposition of sanctions on

14:08:09 13 you and/or Mr. Wasser.
14:08:10 14 Are you going to answer my question or not,

14:08:13 15 Ms. Patrick?
14:08:13 16 MR. WASSER: She has answered your question
14:08:14 17 counsel. Do not attempt to intimidate the witness by

14:08:17 18 making threats against her. Ask your next question.
14:08:19 19 MR. LEE: Mr. Wasser, you are again -- I
14:08:21 20 don't even know what objection you're stating right

14:08:23 21 now. You're again engaging in speaking objections.
14:08:25 22 BY MR. LEE:
14:08:26 23 Q. Ms. Patrick, do you understand the
14:08:28 24 admonition I've given you?

14:08:32 25 A. Yes.
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50
14:08:41 1 Q. Okay. Will you answer my question?

14:08:41 2 MR. WASSER: She's answered.
14:08:41 3 THE WITNESS: I answered your question.
14:08:41 4 BY MR. LEE:

14:08:41 5 Q. Okay. We're going to be -- well, we'll seek
14:08:41 6 a motion to compel on that.
14:08:42 7 MR. WASSER: Ask your next question,
14:08:45 8 counsel.
14:08:45 9 MR. LEE: Mr. Wasser, I really have to ask
14:08:47 10 you to stop engaging in speaking objections. That's
14:08:51 11 the, what, second time I'm telling that you.

14:08:52 12 MR. WASSER: Asking you to ask a question is
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14:08:54 13 not a speaking objection.
14:08:54 14 MR. LEE: Mr. Wasser, you're entitled only

14:08:56 15 to state objections at this deposition. You're not
14:08:58 16 entitled to tell me to do whatever -- this is my
14:09:01 17 deposition. So -- but thank you, Mr. Wasser.

14:09:06 18 BY MR. LEE:
14:09:10 19 Q. Did you -- did you ever hear from Dr. Jadwin
14:09:16 20 his side of the story either prior to or after the
14:09:22 21 removal meeting?

14:09:23 22 A. No.
14:09:26 23 Q. Did you think it was important to hear from
14:09:28 24 Dr. Jadwin his side of the story either prior to or
14:09:30 25 after the removal meeting?

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51
14:09:35 1 A. I don't know that -- I don't know that I

14:09:42 2 considered that.
14:09:43 3 Q. Okay. But I guess the answer is not -- the
14:09:45 4 question is not whether you considered. I'm asking

14:09:47 5 now did you think it was important.
14:09:49 6 A. And I'm saying I didn't consider it.
14:09:52 7 Q. So is the answer no, you did not think it
14:09:57 8 was important?

14:09:57 9 A. I'm saying I did not consider that when the
14:10:01 10 discussion took place, nor was I ever contacted by
14:10:07 11 Dr. Jadwin about this.

14:10:09 12 Q. Okay. Ms. Patrick, I'm going to ask you the
14:10:12 13 question again because I didn't ask you whether you
14:10:13 14 considered it. I'm asking you a different question.

14:10:16 15 The question is did you think it was
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14:10:17 16 important to hear from Dr. Jadwin his side of the
14:10:21 17 story either before or after the removal meeting with
14:10:24 18 respect to his removal from chairmanship from the
14:10:26 19 department of pathology?

14:10:28 20 A. I did not consider that question. I don't
14:10:32 21 know how else -- I don't know how else to answer.

14:10:35 22 Because you're asking me to go back two and a half
14:10:39 23 years and say didn't you think it was. And I'm
14:10:41 24 telling you I did not consider that.

14:10:44 25 Q. Actually, Ms. Patrick, I'm not -- I'm not
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52
14:10:48 1 meaning to say -- I'm not saying didn't you think it
14:10:49 2 was. I wasn't meaning to suggest an answer one way
14:10:53 3 or the other. I was just asking did you think it was
14:10:54 4 important. And if you don't know the answer, all you
14:10:57 5 have to say is I don't remember.

14:10:59 6 MR. WASSER: She's told you the honest
14:11:01 7 answer, Counsel, three times. She's answered the
9 BY MR. LEE:
14:11:05 10 Q. Ms. Patrick, I'm going to ask you the
14:11:09 12 Did you consider it important to hear from

14:11:11 13 Dr. Jadwin his side of the story either prior to or
14:11:14 14 after the removal meeting vote to remove Dr. Jadwin
14:11:18 15 from chairmanship of pathology?

14:11:21 16 A. I don't know how I can be more clear to say
14:11:23 17 you're asking me if I considered it. I'm saying I
14:11:27 18 did not consider it.

14:11:30 19 Q. No, Ms. Patrick. I'm not asking if you
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14:11:31 20 considered it. Do you want me to have the reporter
14:11:34 21 read the question back? Because I don't think I --

14:11:35 22 MR. WASSER: Counsel, you are -- you're
14:11:37 23 badgering the witness with the question she's
14:11:39 24 answered. Move on to your next question.

25 BY MR. LEE:
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53
14:11:41 1 Q. Okay. Actually I don't think I asked you

14:11:43 2 whether you considered it. I'm asking if you thought
14:11:45 3 it was important.
14:11:46 4 A. You asked me if I did consider it. That was

14:11:48 5 your last -- the last time you phrased the question
14:11:52 6 you asked me if I considered it.
14:11:54 7 MR. LEE: Madam Reporter, would you read
14:11:56 8 back my last question, please.

14:12:31 10 THE WITNESS: And I did not consider that.
14:12:33 11 BY MR. LEE:
14:12:34 12 Q. So you did not consider it important, then.

14:12:36 13 Correct?
14:12:36 14 A. I didn't say I didn't consider it. I'm

14:12:38 15 saying I -- I did not consider that question.
14:12:42 16 MR. WASSER: That is an answer to your
14:12:43 17 question, Counsel.

14:12:47 18 BY MR. LEE:
14:12:50 19 Q. Sitting here today, do you believe it was
14:12:52 20 important for Dr. Jadwin to tell his side of the

14:12:55 21 story either prior to or after the vote at the JCC to
14:13:00 22 remove him from chairmanship?
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14:13:04 23 A. Sitting here two and a half years later, do
14:13:07 24 I consider it important?
14:13:10 25 Q. No. No. I'm sorry. Do you want me to have
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54
14:13:11 1 the question read back again?

14:13:13 2 MR. WASSER: You said today, counsel.
14:13:14 3 MR. LEE: Actually, I didn't say consider it

14:13:16 4 because that seems to be a point of confusion.
14:13:18 5 THE WITNESS: Okay. Why don't you rephrase
14:13:20 6 that then.
7 MR. LEE: No.
14:13:20 8 THE WITNESS: Why don't you read that again.
14:13:23 9 MR. LEE: Madam Reporter, would you read

14:13:24 10 back the last question, please.
14:13:45 12 THE WITNESS: I was never contacted by

14:13:47 13 Dr. Jadwin to hear his side of the story.
14:13:50 14 BY MR. LEE:
14:13:51 15 Q. Okay. That's actually not the question I
14:13:52 16 asked, Ms. Patrick. The question I asked is
14:13:54 17 different.
14:13:55 18 Do you want it read back to you again,
14:13:56 19 Ms. Patrick?

14:13:59 20 A. I believe that I heard the question just
14:14:02 21 as -- as you answered it and as she -- or as you
14:14:05 22 asked it and as she read it. And you're saying now
14:14:10 23 two and a half years later do I -- did I -- was that
14:14:16 24 an important thing to do?
14:14:17 25 Q. Yes.
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55
14:14:18 1 A. And I'm saying I had not considered that

14:14:22 2 previously as part of my decision and I was never
14:14:26 3 contacted by Dr. Jadwin.

14:14:28 4 Q. Um-hmm.
14:14:29 5 But the question, sitting here today, do you
14:14:31 6 believe it was important to hear from Dr. Jadwin his

14:14:35 7 side of the story either prior to or after the JCC
14:14:38 8 removal vote?
14:14:40 9 MR. WASSER: Ms. Patrick's state of mind

14:14:43 10 today, Counsel, has absolutely nothing to do with her
14:14:48 11 vote two and a half years ago.
14:14:52 12 BY MR. LEE:

14:14:52 13 Q. You can answer.
14:14:52 14 MR. WASSER: Regardless of what her state of
14:14:54 15 mind might be.
14:14:55 16 MR. LEE: Mr. Wasser, you're continuing to
14:14:58 17 engage in speaking objections. Just note that for

14:15:00 18 the record.
14:15:00 19 BY MR. LEE:
14:15:00 20 Q. Do you want the question read back to you

14:15:02 21 again, Ms. Patrick?
14:15:03 22 A. No, I don't.

14:15:03 23 Had Dr. Jadwin contacted me I would have
14:15:06 24 spoken to him.
14:15:07 25 Q. That's not the question I asked,

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56
14:15:08 1 Ms. Patrick. That's a hypothetical. I didn't pose
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14:15:11 2 it. I'm asking a different question.
14:15:12 3 MR. WASSER: Your question's hypothetical
14:15:14 4 also, Counsel.
5 BY MR. LEE:
14:15:15 6 Q. Do you want me to have the question read
14:15:17 7 back again, Ms. Patrick?

14:15:20 8 A. No.
14:15:21 9 Q. Okay. So can you give me an answer then?
14:15:24 10 MR. WASSER: She's answered it.

14:15:25 11 THE WITNESS: I believe that I did. I did
14:15:27 12 not consider it as part of my decision and I would
14:15:30 13 have spoken to him had he contacted me.

14:15:32 14 BY MR. LEE:
14:15:33 15 Q. Okay. That's not the question I asked,
14:15:35 16 Ms. Patrick. The question I asked you for -- I'm
14:15:38 17 going to have to repeat it now probably for the fifth

14:15:40 18 or sixth time now -- is sitting here today do you
14:15:42 19 believe it was important to hear from Dr. Jadwin his
14:15:45 20 side of the story either prior to or after the JCC
14:15:49 21 removal meeting vote to remove him from chairmanship?

14:15:52 22 A. I believe that I've answered that question.
14:15:54 23 MR. WASSER: She's answered it. The
14:15:55 24 question is not reasonably calculated to lead to any

14:15:58 25 admissible evidence because Ms. Patrick's state of
ROUGH DRAFT

57
14:16:01 1 mind today has nothing to do with what --

14:16:03 2 MR. LEE: Mr. Wasser, your objection is duly
14:16:05 3 noted. You can just limit it to the objection.

14:16:05 4 MR. WASSER: Don't interrupt me, Counsel.
14:16:06 5 MR. LEE: Please refrain from speaking
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14:16:09 6 objections. This is the fourth time I've asked you.
14:16:11 7 MR. WASSER: Her state of -- I'm giving my

14:16:12 8 objection without interruption this time. Her state
14:16:15 9 of mind two and a half years after she cast her vote
14:16:19 10 is not reasonably calculated to lead to the discovery

14:16:22 11 of any admissible evidence.
14:16:24 12 BY MR. LEE:
14:16:26 13 Q. Okay. So Ms. Patrick, I'm going to give you
14:16:28 14 the admonition again unless Mr. Wasser is willing to

14:16:31 15 stipulate --
14:16:31 16 MR. WASSER: We'll stipulate to it. Please
14:16:34 17 move on.
18 BY MR. LEE:
14:16:35 19 Q. It's the same stipulation -- same admonition
14:16:37 20 I gave you before if you refuse to answer my --
14:16:40 21 regarding refusals to answer.
14:16:41 22 MR. WASSER: We understand the admonition,
14:16:43 23 counsel. We're stipulating to it.

14:16:45 24 MR. LEE: Mr. Wasser, now you're
14:16:46 25 interrupting me on the record.

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58
14:16:47 1 MR. WASSER: Because we just stipulated to

14:16:48 2 it and you want to do it anyway. Let's move on.
14:16:50 3 MR. LEE: Mr. Wasser, you're now
14:16:52 4 interrupting me on the record and you just did it

14:16:54 5 again. I ask that you let me finish speaking on the
14:16:56 6 record before you interrupt and start speaking.
14:16:58 7 Can you do that? If you do it again,
14:17:01 8 Mr. Wasser, I will adjourn. I've warned you multiple
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14:17:04 9 times today.
14:17:05 10 BY MR. LEE:
14:17:06 11 Q. Okay, Ms. Patrick. It's been stipulated
14:17:08 12 that you've been -- you're being administered the

14:17:11 13 admonition again.
14:17:13 14 Are you not going to answer my question?

14:17:14 15 A. I did answer your question.
14:17:16 16 Q. No, you have not, Ms. Patrick.
14:17:17 17 MR. WASSER: Counsel, move on. You've given

14:17:19 18 her the admonition. You're still going over it.
14:17:21 19 Move on.
14:17:23 20 MR. LEE: Okay. Mr. Wasser, if you continue

14:17:25 21 with these objections, I will adjourn the deposition.
14:17:28 22 You're not objecting. You're badgering and you're
14:17:30 23 obstructing. Whatever you're saying right now is not
14:17:33 24 even proper.

14:17:34 25 What's your basis for what you're saying
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59
14:17:36 1 right now, Mr. Wasser? There is none.

14:17:45 2 BY MR. LEE:
14:17:51 3 Q. Ms. Patrick, do you understand that it is --
14:17:57 4 it is wrong to punish somebody for having taken

14:18:01 5 medical leave under medical leave laws?
14:18:06 6 A. If -- if all things are considered, I'm
14:18:12 7 certain that it is, but you have to make certain that
14:18:15 8 the person has done the appropriate things under the
14:18:18 9 law and that the employer has done the appropriate
14:18:20 10 things under the law.
14:18:22 11 Q. You mean proper procedure has been followed

14:18:27 12 by all parties?
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14:18:28 13 A. Yes.
14:18:29 14 Q. Well, assuming proper procedure has been

14:18:32 15 followed by all parties do you think it's wrong to
14:18:34 16 punish somebody for taking medical leave, an
14:18:38 17 employee -- let me strike that.

14:18:39 18 Assuming proper procedure has been followed
14:18:42 19 is it wrong for an employer in California it punish
14:18:45 20 an employee for taking medical leave?
14:18:48 21 A. I think the question you're asking is it

14:18:50 22 illegal to do that.
14:18:53 23 Q. You can take it that way if you wish.
14:18:54 24 A. Is that correct?
14:18:54 25 Q. You can take it that way.

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60
14:18:56 1 A. I think that both parties have to follow the

14:19:04 2 appropriate procedures and if the appropriate
14:19:07 3 procedures have not been followed there is the chance
14:19:11 4 that something illegal on one side or the other has

14:19:14 5 occurred.
14:19:16 6 Q. Okay. That's not my -- that's actually not
14:19:17 7 the question I asked, Ms. Patrick. The question I
14:19:20 8 asked is assuming procedure has been followed. So

14:19:23 9 we've taken care of the procedure. That's not an
14:19:25 10 issue.
14:19:25 11 A. Okay.
14:19:26 12 Q. We don't need to go there.
14:19:27 13 A. Assuming the proper procedure has been
14:19:29 14 followed, is it wrong for an employer in California

14:19:32 15 or actually anywhere in the country to punish an
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14:19:34 16 employee for taking medical leave?
14:19:36 17 A. Well, you're asking if it's wrong. That's
14:19:38 18 kind of a value judgment. I'm changing the word
14:19:40 19 wrong to illegal. If all proper procedure has been

14:19:46 20 followed, then there may be a legal basis for one
14:19:52 21 side or the other to object.

14:19:55 22 Q. To object?
14:19:55 23 A. Yes.
14:19:59 24 Q. Okay. That's actually -- I'm going to ask

14:20:03 25 you to answer the question as I asked it and not to
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61
14:20:03 1 change it.
14:20:03 2 Do you want me to repeat the question for
14:20:05 3 the third time?
14:20:07 4 A. Well, you're asking me if it's wrong or not.
14:20:10 5 Q. Yes.
14:20:10 6 A. How do you define wrong? Is wrong a legal
14:20:15 7 term?
14:20:15 8 Q. No.
14:20:16 9 A. I thought illegal -- I thought legal and
14:20:20 10 illegal and the -- the proving back and forth is
14:20:25 11 either legal or illegal.
14:20:26 12 Q. Okay. Let me ask you a few questions. Do

14:20:28 13 you think it's wrong to lie on the record?
14:20:30 14 A. Yes.
14:20:31 15 Q. So you understand that. Okay. It's wrong.

14:20:34 16 Do you think it's wrong to hit somebody out
14:20:36 17 of anger?
14:20:37 18 A. Yes.
14:20:38 19 Q. Do you think it's wrong to steal from
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14:20:40 20 somebody?
14:20:41 21 A. Yes.
14:20:42 22 Q. Okay. So I'm going to ask you now a
14:20:44 23 question along the same vein is wrong. Do you think
14:20:47 24 it's wrong to -- for an employer to punish an

14:20:51 25 employee for taking medical leave?
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62
14:20:52 1 MR. WASSER: Counsel, your questions are

14:20:53 2 objectionable on innumerable bases, but among the
14:20:57 3 examples you gave are not analogous to the statutory
14:21:04 4 violations. There's the difference in the criminal

14:21:08 5 law between malum in se and malum prohibitive and
14:21:13 6 you're trying to make a distinction for the witness
14:21:16 7 that she's having trouble with.
14:21:21 8 MR. LEE: Mr. Wasser, what objection are you
14:21:23 9 stating right now?

14:21:24 10 MR. WASSER: It's an objection of vagueness.
14:21:26 11 MR. LEE: You can just --
14:21:27 12 MR. WASSER: Your use of the word wrong.

14:21:29 13 The witness has explained to you she doesn't
14:21:31 14 understand it.

14:21:31 15 MR. LEE: Mr. Wasser, you are well aware
14:21:34 16 under Rule 34 that all you need is say is objection,
14:21:37 17 vague and ambiguous and leave it at that. You're

14:21:39 18 engaging in speaking objections for I don't know how
14:21:41 19 many times now. Are you going to continue to engage
14:21:43 20 in speaking objections throughout this deposition?

14:21:45 21 MR. WASSER: Please ask the question.
14:21:46 22 Please ask the question.
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14:21:48 24 again to limit your objections to make -- to the
14:21:51 25 short -- to short objections stating the ground and
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63
14:21:54 1 that's it and not to engage in a speaking objection.

14:21:57 2 BY MR. LEE:
14:21:58 3 Q. Ms. Patrick, do you want me to repeat the

14:22:00 4 question or do you understand the question or
14:22:01 5 remember it?
14:22:02 6 A. I thought what we were talking about was are
14:22:09 7 things legal or not.
14:22:11 8 Q. Actually, we're not. You understand -- you
14:22:15 9 understand what the term wrong means, Ms. Patrick,

14:22:18 10 right and wrong?
14:22:19 11 A. I do.
14:22:20 12 Q. Do you want me to ask the question again

14:22:23 13 then?
14:22:23 14 MR. WASSER: Counsel, if we're not talking
14:22:24 15 about statutory claims based upon the statutes or
14:22:27 16 laws, then we're clearly outside the scope of
14:22:30 17 discoverable -- what's properly discoverable.

14:22:33 18 MR. LEE: Mr. Wasser, you're stating a
14:22:35 19 relevancy objection. So noteed. Thank you so much.

14:22:37 20 MR. WASSER: I'm stating an objection that
21 the witness is not going to engage in a philosophical
14:22:40 22 discussion with you about values.

14:22:43 23 MR. LEE: Are you instructing the deponent
14:22:45 24 not to answer, then, Mr. Wasser?
14:22:46 25 MR. WASSER: She has answered, counsel.

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64
14:22:47 1 MR. LEE: Are you instructing the deponent

14:22:49 2 not to answer?
14:22:49 3 MR. WASSER: She has already answered. I've

14:22:51 4 given the deponent no instructions.
14:22:53 5 MR. LEE: Mr. Wasser, are you stating an
14:22:54 6 objection or are you instructing not to answer?

14:22:55 7 MR. WASSER: The witness has answered the
14:22:57 9 MR. LEE: That's not an objection and that's

14:22:59 10 not an instruction not to answer. Which are you
14:23:01 11 doing, Mr. Wasser?
14:23:02 12 MR. WASSER: Ask a question, please.

13 BY MR. LEE:
14:23:04 14 Q. Ms. Patrick, do you want me to repeat the
14:23:06 15 question?
14:23:08 16 A. I believe I'll give you the same answer that
14:23:10 17 I did before. What you're asking is a value

14:23:13 18 judgment.
14:23:13 19 Q. Correct. That's correct.
14:23:14 20 A. And I think what we're talking about today

14:23:17 21 is legality.
14:23:18 22 Q. That's not correct. No. We are talking

14:23:20 23 about value judgements, Ms. Patrick.
14:23:22 24 MR. WASSER: Not in this lawsuit we're not.
14:23:24 25 THE WITNESS: No. I -- I....

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65
14:23:27 1 MR. WASSER: Public agencies operate by
Page 57
A081908rfb
14:23:30 2 statute, counsel.
14:23:31 3 MR. LEE: Mr. Wasser, you're engaging in
14:23:32 4 speaking objections again. Just state objection
14:23:34 5 relevance and leave it at that.

14:23:36 6 MR. WASSER: If you're not satisfied with
14:23:37 7 the witness' answer we'll stipulate you've given the

14:23:40 8 admonition. Move to your next question, please.
14:23:42 9 MR. LEE: Are you instructing not to answer?
14:23:43 10 MR. WASSER: No. She has answered. We'll

14:23:45 11 stipulate you've given her the admonition that you
14:23:47 12 find her answer responsive and move on, please.
13 BY MR. LEE:
14:23:50 14 Q. The admonition is being given again. It's
14:23:52 15 been stipulated regarding your refusal to answer my
14:23:55 16 question.
14:23:57 17 Are you going to answer my -- are you going

14:23:58 18 to refuse to answer my question?
14:24:01 19 A. I answered your question.
14:24:02 20 Q. No, Ms. Patrick. You've answered a
14:24:03 21 different question.

14:24:03 22 MR. WASSER: Counsel, admonish her. We've
14:24:05 23 stipulated to the admonition. Move on, please.
24 BY MR. LEE:
14:24:08 25 Q. Ms. Patrick, are you going to answer my
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66
14:24:10 1 question or not?

14:24:11 2 A. I answered your question.
14:24:12 3 Q. Okay. Let's move on.

14:24:16 4 If we continue to get these kinds of
14:24:21 5 nonresponses, we are going to have to adjourn this
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14:24:24 6 deposition and seek reconvening of this deposition.
14:24:52 7 Do you recall who else spoke at the removal

14:24:54 8 meeting besides Mr. Bryan?
14:24:57 9 A. I'm sorry. I don't.
14:24:58 10 Q. It was just Mr. Bryan, to your recollection?

14:25:00 11 MR. WASSER: She said she didn't recall,
14:25:02 12 counsel.
14:25:02 13 THE WITNESS: No. I -- I -- I can't say it
14:25:04 14 was just him. I don't remember if anyone else spoke

14:25:11 15 or who that was.
14:25:14 16 BY MR. LEE:
14:25:14 17 Q. . Okay. So in other words you don't recall
14:25:14 18 one way or the other. Correct?

14:25:16 20 Q. Okay. Do you recall any -- being handed and
14:25:21 21 reviewing any documents in connection with the vote
14:25:24 22 to remove Dr. Jadwin at the removal meeting?
14:25:27 23 A. I don't.
14:25:31 24 Q. Do you recall yourself asking any questions
14:25:34 25 at the removal meeting regarding the removal of

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202 P Request For Telephonic Conf Re Deposition Disputes

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Case 1:07-cv-00026-OWW-TAG Document 202 Filed 08/21/2008 Page 1 of 4

August 21, 2008

U.S.D.C., Eastern District of California 100011.001

Re: Severe Ongoing Deposition Disputes Which Go Unpunished by this Court

To the Honorable Court:

Following is a synopsis of the disputes.

14:20:52 1 MR. WASSER: Counsel, your questions are

09:49:09 19 Q. You did not.

IV. Pending Deposition Disputes

Very truly yours,

1 WOOD & RANDALL

3 Bakersfield and Fresno Offices

6 (BE ADVISED THAT ALL ROUGH DRAFTS WILL BE FOLLOWED BY

7 A CERTIFIED COPY AND BILLED APPROPRIATELY)

13 Tuesday, August 19, 2008

15 This realtime draft is unedited and

16 uncertified and may contain untranslated steno, an

18 word combinations. All such entries will be

19 corrected on the final certified transcript upon its

22 This realtime draft is intended only for the

23 purpose of augmenting counsel's notes and is not

09:09:33 5 A. Antoinette Catherine Smith.

09:09:37 7 You're appearing under an order of the

09:09:41 10 Q. Okay. Have you ever had your deposition

09:09:44 12 A. Yes, sir.

09:09:45 13 Q. And when?

09:09:51 15 can't tell you. Maybe two or three years ago.

09:09:54 16 Q. An estimate is good enough?

09:09:59 19 or a party in that?

09:10:01 20 A. It -- it was related to a -- a lawsuit that

09:10:07 21 a patient had brought at -- for -- a patient care

09:10:14 23 Q. And were you named as a defendant or were

09:10:16 24 you just deposed as a witness?

09:10:27 1 originally as a defendant I think and then -- and

09:10:32 3 Q. Dropped, okay.

09:10:40 7 Okay. So you're not a deposition virgin but

09:10:50 13 Q. So the lady sitting to your left is a court

09:10:52 14 reporter and her job is to transcribe and record

09:11:02 17 record what's said; so when you respond to a question

09:11:05 18 please do not shake your head or nod your head in

09:11:12 20 huh-uh. Please clearly state yes or no so she can

09:11:15 21 create a clean record.

09:11:17 22 Also, this is very difficult for most people

09:11:20 23 to do. This is not natural. But please wait for me

09:11:37 4 questions it's very important you understand the

09:11:46 7 ask me to rephrase or restate a question if you don't

09:11:48 8 understand it before you answer. Do you understand?

09:11:57 12 court of law before a judge and/or a jury. You are

09:12:03 14 truth. Do you understand that?

09:12:09 17 you decide later that it's not correct or it's

09:12:15 19 to correct or add to previous -- prior testimony and

09:12:20 20 make sure you do so before the end of the deposition.

09:12:28 24 Q. Okay. So are you aware of any reason why

09:12:46 8 Q. You have? Without specifying, can you just

09:13:12 20 A. No. I mean, I saw a friend at the gym and

09:13:15 21 said I was going to go have my deposition taken.

09:13:22 24 A. No, I haven't.

09:13:28 25 Q. Do you understand what this lawsuit is

09:13:35 3 Q. Tell me your understanding of what it is.

09:13:38 4 A. My understanding is that Dr. Jadwin is

09:13:51 7 Q. Sure. That's fine.

09:13:54 8 What is your exact title, your job?