Anarchism Interview

May, 13 2008 By Howard Zinn and Ziga Vodovnik

"History shows that whenever people have been living under tyranny, people would rebel against that."

Howard Zinn, 85, is a Professor Emeritus of political science at Boston University. He was born in Brooklyn, !, in "#$$ to a poor immi%rant family. He reali&ed early in 'is yout' t'at t'e promise of t'e ()merican *ream+, t'at will come true to all 'ard,workin% and dili%ent people, is -ust t'at , a promise and a dream. *urin% .orld .ar // 'e -oined U0 )ir 1orce and served as a bombardier in t'e (European 2'eatre+. 2'is proved to be a formative e3perience t'at only stren%t'ened 'is convictions t'at t'ere is no suc' t'in% as a -ust war. /t also revealed, once a%ain, t'e real face of t'e socio,economic order, w'ere t'e sufferin% and sacrifice of t'e ordinary people is always used only to 'i%'er t'e profits of t'e privile%ed few. )lt'ou%' 'e spent 'is yout'ful years 'elpin% 'is parents support t'e family by workin% in t'e s'ipyards, 'e started wit' studies at 4olumbia University after ..//, w'ere 'e successfully defended 'is doctoral dissertation in "#58. 5ater 'e was appointed as a c'airman of t'e department of 'istory and social sciences at 0pelman 4olle%e, an all, black women6s colle%e in )tlanta, 7), w'ere 'e actively participated in t'e 4ivil 8i%'ts 9ovement. 1rom t'e onset of t'e :ietnam .ar 'e was active wit'in t'e emer%in% anti,war movement, and in t'e followin% years only stepped up 'is involvement in movements aspirin% towards anot'er, better world. Zinn is t'e aut'or of more t'an $; books, includin% A People's History of the United States t'at is "a brilliant and moving history of the American people from the point of view of those who have been e ploited politically and economically and whose plight has been largely omitted from most histories..." <5ibrary =ournal> His most recent book is entitled A Power !overnments "annot Suppress, and is a fascinatin% collection of essays t'at Zinn wrote in t'e last couple of years. Beloved radical 'istorian is still lecturin% across t'e U0 and around t'e world, and is, wit' active participation and support of various pro%ressive social movements continuin% 'is stru%%le for free and -ust society. Zi%a :odovnik is an )ssistant Professor of Political 0cience at t'e 1aculty of 0ocial 0ciences, University of 5-ubl-ana, w'ere 'is teac'in% and researc' is focused on anarc'ist t'eory?pra3is and social movements in t'e )mericas. His new book Anarchy of #veryday $ife % &otes on anarchism and its 'orgotten "onfluences will be released in late $;;8.

Ziga Vodovnik:'rom the ()*+s onwards we are witnessing the process of economic globali,ation getting stronger day after day. -any on the $eft are now caught between a "dilemma" % either to wor. to reinforce the sovereignty of nation%states as a defensive barrier against the control of foreign and global capital/ or to strive towards a non%national alternative to the present form of globali,ation and that is e0ually global. 1hat's your opinion about this2 Howard Zinn: / am an anarc'ist, and accordin% to anarc'ist principles nation states become

obstacles to a true 'umanistic %lobali&ation. /n a certain sense t'e movement towards %lobali&ation w'ere capitalists are tryin% to leap over nation state barriers, creates a kind of opportunity for movement to i%nore national barriers, and to brin% people to%et'er %lobally, across national lines in opposition to %lobali&ation of capital, to create %lobali&ation of people, opposed to traditional notion of %lobali&ation. /n ot'er words to use %lobali&ation , it is not'in% wron% wit' idea of %lobali&ation , in a way t'at bypasses national boundaries and of course t'at t'ere is not involved corporate control of t'e economic decisions t'at are made about people all over t'e world. ZV: Pierre%3oseph Proudhon once wrote that4 +1reedom is t'e mot'er, not t'e dau%'ter of order.+ 1here do you see life after or beyond 5nation6 states2 HZ: Beyond t'e nation states@ <lau%'ter> / t'ink w'at lies beyond t'e nation states is a world wit'out national boundaries, but also wit' people or%ani&ed. But not or%ani&ed as nations, but people or%ani&ed as %roups, as collectives, wit'out national and any kind of boundaries. .it'out any kind of borders, passports, visas. one of t'atA Bf collectives of different si&es, dependin% on t'e function of t'e collective, 'avin% contacts wit' one anot'er. !ou cannot 'ave self,sufficient little collectives, because t'ese collectives 'ave different resources available to t'em. 2'is is somet'in% anarc'ist t'eory 'as not worked out and maybe cannot possibly work out in advance, because it would 'ave to work itself out in practice. ZV: 7o you thin. that a change can be achieved through institutionali,ed party politics, or only through alternative means % with disobedience, building parallel framewor.s, establishing alternative media, etc. HZ: /f you work t'rou%' t'e e3istin% structures you are %oin% to be corrupted. By workin% t'rou%' political system t'at poisons t'e atmosp'ere, even t'e pro%ressive or%ani&ations, you can see it even now in t'e U0, w'ere people on t'e +5eft+ are all cau%'t in t'e electoral campai%n and %et into fierce ar%uments about s'ould we support t'is t'ird party candidate or t'at t'ird party candidate. 2'is is a sort of little piece of evidence t'at su%%ests t'at w'en you %et into workin% t'rou%' electoral politics you be%in to corrupt your ideals. 0o / t'ink a way to be'ave is to t'ink not in terms of representative %overnment, not in terms of votin%, not in terms of electoral politics, but t'inkin% in terms of or%ani&in% social movements, or%ani&in% in t'e work place, or%ani&in% in t'e nei%'bor'ood, or%ani&in% collectives t'at can become stron% enou%' to eventually take over , first to become stron% enou%' to resist w'at 'as been done to t'em by aut'ority, and second, later, to become stron% enou%' to actually take over t'e institutions. ZV: 8ne personal 0uestion. 7o you go to the polls2 7o you vote2 HZ: / do. 0ometimes, not always. /t depends. But / believe t'at it is preferable sometimes to 'ave one candidate rat'er anot'er candidate, w'ile you understand t'at t'at is not t'e solution. 0ometimes t'e lesser evil is not so lesser, so you want to i%nore t'at, and you eit'er do not vote or vote for t'ird party as a protest a%ainst t'e party system. 0ometimes t'e difference between two candidates is an important one in t'e immediate sense, and t'en / believe tryin% to %et somebody into office, w'o is a little better, w'o is less dan%erous, is understandable. But never for%ettin% t'at no matter w'o %ets into office, t'e crucial Cuestion is not w'o is in office, but w'at kind of social movement do you 'ave. Because we 'ave seen 'istorically t'at if you 'ave a powerful social movement, it doesn6t matter w'o is in office. .'oever is in office, t'ey could be 8epublican or *emocrat, if you 'ave a powerful social movement, t'e person in office will 'ave to yield, will 'ave to in some ways respect t'e power of social movements. .e saw t'is in t'e "#D;s. 8ic'ard i3on was not t'e lesser evil, 'e was t'e %reater evil, but in 'is administration t'e war was finally brou%'t to an end, because 'e 'ad to deal wit' t'e power of t'e anti,war movement as well as t'e power of t'e :ietnamese movement. / will vote, but always wit' a caution t'at votin% is not crucial, and or%ani&in% is t'e important t'in%. .'en some people ask me about votin%, t'ey would say will you support t'is candidate or

t'at candidate@ / sayE F/ will support t'is candidate for one minute t'at / am in t'e votin% boot'. )t t'at moment / will support ) versus B, but before / am %oin% to t'e votin% boot', and after / leave t'e votin% boot', / am %oin% to concentrate on or%ani&in% people and not or%ani&in% electoral campai%n.6 ZV: Anarchism is in this respect rightly opposing representative democracy since it is still form of tyranny % tyranny of ma9ority. :hey ob9ect to the notion of ma9ority vote, noting that the views of the ma9ority do not always coincide with the morally right one. :horeau once wrote that we have an obligation to act according to the dictates of our conscience, even if the latter goes against the ma9ority opinion or the laws of the society. 7o you agree with this2 HZ: )bsolutely. 8ousseau once said, if / am part of a %roup of ";; people, do ## people 'ave t'e ri%'t to sentence me to deat', -ust because t'ey are ma-ority@ o, ma-orities can be wron%, ma-orities can overrule ri%'ts of minorities. /f ma-orities ruled, we could still 'ave slavery. 8;G of t'e population once enslaved $;G of t'e population. .'ile run by ma-ority rule t'at is ok. 2'at is very flawed notion of w'at democracy is. *emocracy 'as to take into account several t'in%s , proportionate reCuirements of people, not -ust needs of t'e ma-ority, but also needs of t'e minority. )nd also 'as to take into account t'at ma-ority, especially in societies w'ere t'e media manipulates public opinion, can be totally wron% and evil. 0o yes, people 'ave to act accordin% to conscience and not by ma-ority vote.

ZV: 1here do you see the historical origins of anarchism in the United States2 HZ: Bne of t'e problems wit' dealin% wit' anarc'ism is t'at t'ere are many people w'ose ideas are anarc'ist, but w'o do not necessarily call t'emselves anarc'ists. 2'e word was first used by Proud'on in t'e middle of t'e "#t' century, but actually t'ere were anarc'ist ideas t'at proceeded Proud'on, t'ose in Europe and also in t'e United 0tates. 1or instance, t'ere are some ideas of 2'omas Paine, w'o was not an anarc'ist, w'o would not call 'imself an anarc'ist, but 'e was suspicious of %overnment. )lso Henry *avid 2'oreau. He does not know t'e word anarc'ism, and does not use t'e word anarc'ism, but 2'oreau6s ideas are very close to anarc'ism. He is very 'ostile to all forms of %overnment. /f we trace ori%ins of anarc'ism in t'e United 0tates, t'en probably 2'oreau is t'e closest you can come to an early )merican anarc'ist. !ou do not really encounter anarc'ism until after t'e 4ivil .ar, w'en you 'ave European anarc'ists, especially 7erman anarc'ists, comin% to t'e United 0tates. 2'ey actually be%in to or%ani&e. 2'e first time t'at anarc'ism 'as an or%ani&ed force and becomes publicly known in t'e United 0tates is in 4'ica%o at t'e time of Haymarket )ffair. ZV: 1here do you see the main inspiration of contemporary anarchism in the United States2 1hat is your opinion about the :ranscendentalism % i.e., Henry 7. :horeau, ;alph 1. #merson, 1alt 1hitman, -argaret 'uller, et al. % as an inspiration in this perspective2 HZ: .ell, t'e 2ranscendentalism is, we mi%'t say, an early form of anarc'ism. 2'e 2ranscendentalists also did not call t'emselves anarc'ists, but t'ere are anarc'ist ideas in t'eir t'inkin% and in t'eir literature. /n many ways Herman 9elville s'ows some of t'ose anarc'ist ideas. 2'ey were all suspicious of aut'ority. .e mi%'t say t'at t'e 2ranscendentalism played a role in creatin% an atmosp'ere of skepticism towards aut'ority, towards %overnment. Unfortunately, today t'ere is no real or%ani&ed anarc'ist movement in t'e United 0tates. 2'ere are many important %roups or collectives t'at call t'emselves anarc'ist, but t'ey are small. / remember t'at in "#D;s t'ere was an anarc'ist collective 'ere in Boston t'at consisted of fifteen <sicA> people, but t'en t'ey split. But in "#D;s t'e idea of anarc'ism became more important in connection wit' t'e movements of "#D;s. ZV: -ost of the creative energy for radical politics is nowadays coming from anarchism, but only

few of the people involved in the movement actually call themselves "anarchists". 1here do you see the main reason for this2 Are activists ashamed to identify themselves with this intellectual tradition, or rather they are true to the commitment that real emancipation needs emancipation from any label2 HZ: 2'e term anarc'ism 'as become associated wit' two p'enomena wit' w'ic' real anarc'ist don6t want to associate t'emselves wit'. Bne is violence, and t'e ot'er is disorder or c'aos. 2'e popular conception of anarc'ism is on t'e one 'and bomb,t'rowin% and terrorism, and on t'e ot'er 'and no rules, no re%ulations, no discipline, everybody does w'at t'ey want, confusion, etc. 2'at is w'y t'ere is a reluctance to use t'e term anarc'ism. But actually t'e ideas of anarc'ism are incorporated in t'e way t'e movements of t'e "#D;s be%an to t'ink. / t'ink t'at probably t'e best manifestation of t'at was in t'e civil ri%'ts movement wit' t'e Student &onviolent "oordinating "ommittee , 0 44. 0 44 wit'out knowin% about anarc'ism as p'ilosop'y embodied t'e c'aracteristics of anarc'ism. 2'ey were decentrali&ed. Bt'er civil ri%'ts or%ani&ations, for e3ample 0even 4'ristian 5eaders'ip 4onference, were centrali&ed or%ani&ations wit' a leader , 9artin 5ut'er Hin%. &ational Association for the Advancement of "olored People < ))4P> were based in ew !ork, and also 'ad some kind of centrali&ed or%ani&ation. 0 44, on t'e ot'er 'and, was totally decentrali&ed. /t 'ad w'at t'ey called field secretaries, w'o worked in little towns all over t'e 0out', wit' %reat deal of autonomy. 2'ey 'ad an office in )tlanta, 7eor%ia, but t'e office was not a stron% centrali&ed aut'ority. 2'e people w'o were workin% out in t'e field , in )labama, 7eor%ia, 5ouisiana, and 9ississippi , t'ey were very muc' on t'eir own. 2'ey were workin% to%et'er wit' local people, wit' %rassroots people. )nd so t'ere is no one leader for 0 44, and also %reat suspicion of %overnment, because of e3perience of 0 44. 2'ey could not depend on %overnment to 'elp t'em, to support t'em, even t'ou%' t'e %overnment of t'e time, in t'e early "#D;s, was considered to be pro%ressive, liberal. =o'n 1. Hennedy especially. But t'ey looked at =o'n 1. Hennedy, t'ey saw 'ow 'e be'aved. =o'n 1. Hennedy was not supportin% t'e 0out'ern movement for eCual ri%'ts for Black people. He was appointin% t'e se%re%ationists -ud%es in t'e 0out', 'e was allowin% sout'ern se%re%ationists to do w'atever t'ey wanted to do. 0o 0 44 was decentrali&ed, anti,%overnment, wit'out leaders'ip, but t'ey did not 'ave a vision of a future society like t'e anarc'ists. 2'ey were not t'inkin% lon% term, t'ey were not askin% w'at kind of society s'all we 'ave in t'e future. 2'ey were really concentrated on immediate problem of racial se%re%ation. But t'eir attitude, t'e way t'ey worked, t'e way t'ey were or%ani&ed, was alon%, you mi%'t say, anarc'ist lines. ZV: 7o you thing that pe9orative 5mis6usage of the word anarchism is direct conse0uence of the fact that the ideas that people can be free, was and is very frightening to those in power2 HZ: o doubtA o doubt t'at anarc'ist ideas are fri%'tenin% to t'ose in power. People in power can tolerate liberal ideas. 2'ey can tolerate ideas t'at call for reforms, but t'ey cannot tolerate t'e idea t'at t'ere will be no state, no central aut'ority. 0o it is very important for t'em to ridicule t'e idea of anarc'ism to create t'is impression of anarc'ism as violent and c'aotic. /t is useful for t'em, yes. ZV: <n theoretical political science we can analytically identify two main conceptions of anarchism % a so%called collectivist anarchism limited to #urope, and on another hand individualist anarchism limited to US. 7o you agree with this analytical separation2 HZ: 2o me t'is is an artificial separation. )s so often 'appens analysts can make t'in%s easier for t'emselves, like to create cate%ories and fit movements into cate%ories, but / don6t t'ink you can do t'at. Here in t'e United 0tates, sure t'ere 'ave been people w'o believed in individualist anarc'ism, but in t'e United 0tates 'ave also been or%ani&ed anarc'ists of 4'ica%o in "88;s or 0 44. / %uess in bot' instances, in Europe and in t'e United 0tates, you find bot' manifestations, e3cept t'at maybe in Europe t'e idea of anarc'o,syndicalism become stron%er in Europe t'an in t'e U0. .'ile in t'e U0 you 'ave t'e /.., w'ic' is an anarc'o,sindicalist or%ani&ation and certainly not in keepin% wit' individualist anarc'ism.

ZV: 1hat is your opinion about the "dilemma" of means % revolution versus social and cultural evolution2 HZ: / t'ink 'ere are several different Cuestions. Bne of t'em is t'e issue of violence, and / t'ink 'ere anarc'ists 'ave disa%reed. Here in t'e U0 you find a disa%reement, and you can find t'is disa%reement wit'in one person. Emma 7oldman, you mi%'t say s'e brou%'t anarc'ism, after s'e was dead, to t'e forefront in t'e U0 in t'e "#D;s, w'en s'e suddenly became an important fi%ure. But Emma 7oldman was in favor of t'e assassination of Henry 4lay 1rick, but t'en s'e decided t'at t'is is not t'e way. Her friend and comrade, )le3ander Berkman, 'e did not %ive up totally t'e idea of violence. Bn t'e ot'er 'and, you 'ave people w'o were anarc'istic in way like 2olstoy and also 7and'i, w'o believed in nonviolence. 2'ere is one central c'aracteristic of anarc'ism on t'e matter of means, and t'at central principle is a principle of direct action , of not %oin% t'rou%' t'e forms t'at t'e society offers you, of representative %overnment, of votin%, of le%islation, but directly takin% power. /n case of trade unions, in case of anarc'o,syndicalism, it means workers %oin% on strike, and not -ust t'at, but actually also takin% 'old of industries in w'ic' t'ey work and mana%in% t'em. .'at is direct action@ /n t'e 0out' w'en black people were or%ani&in% a%ainst racial se%re%ation, t'ey did not wait for t'e %overnment to %ive t'em a si%nal, or to %o t'rou%' t'e courts, to file lawsuits, wait for 4on%ress to pass t'e le%islation. 2'ey took direct actionI t'ey went into restaurants, were sittin% down t'ere and wouldn6tmove. 2'ey %ot on t'ose busses and acted out t'e situation t'at t'ey wanted to e3ist. Bf course, strike is always a form of direct action. .it' t'e strike, too, you are not askin% %overnment to make t'in%s easier for you by passin% le%islation, you are takin% a direct action a%ainst t'e employer. / would say, as far as means %o, t'e idea of direct action a%ainst t'e evil t'at you want to overcome is a kind of common denominator for anarc'ist ideas, anarc'ist movements. / still t'ink one of t'e most important principles of anarc'ism is t'at you cannot separate means and ends. )nd t'at is, if your end is e%alitarian society you 'ave to use e%alitarian means, if your end is non,violent society wit'out war, you cannot use war to ac'ieve your end. / t'ink anarc'ism reCuires means and ends to be in line wit' one anot'er. / t'ink t'is is in fact one of t'e distin%uis'in% c'aracteristics of anarc'ism.

ZV: 8n one occasion &oam "homs.y has been as.ed about his specific vision of anarchist society and about his very detailed plan to get there. He answered that +we can not fi%ure out w'at problems are %oin% to arise unless you e3periment wit' t'em.+ 7o you also have a feeling that many left intellectuals are loosing too much energy with their theoretical disputes about t'e proper means and ends, to even start +e3perimentin%+ in practice@ HZ: / t'ink it is wort' presentin% ideas, like 9ic'ael )lbert did wit' Parecon for instance, even t'ou%' if you maintain fle3ibility. .e cannot create blueprint for future society now, but / t'ink it is %ood to t'ink about t'at. / t'ink it is %ood to 'ave in mind a %oal. /t is constructive, it is 'elpful, it is 'ealt'y, to t'ink about w'at future society mi%'t be like, because t'en it %uides you somew'at w'at you are doin% today, but only so lon% as t'is discussions about future society don6t become obstacles to workin% towards t'is future society. Bt'erwise you can spend discussin% t'is utopian possibility versus t'at utopian possibility, and in t'e mean time you are not actin% in a way t'at would brin% you closer to t'at. ZV: <n your ) People6s History of t'e United 0tates you show us that our freedom, rights, environmental standards, etc., have never been given to us from the wealthy and influential few, but have always been fought out by ordinary people % with civil disobedience. 1hat should be in this respect our first steps toward another, better world2 HZ: / t'ink our first step is to or%ani&e ourselves and protest a%ainst e3istin% order , a%ainst war,

a%ainst economic and se3ual e3ploitation, a%ainst racism, etc. But to or%ani&e ourselves in suc' a way t'at means correspond to t'e ends, and to or%ani&e ourselves in suc' a way as to create kind of 'uman relations'ip t'at s'ould e3ist in future society. 2'at would mean to or%ani&e ourselves wit'out centrali&e aut'ority, wit'out c'arismatic leader, in a way t'at represents in miniature t'e ideal of t'e future e%alitarian society. 0o t'at even if you don6t win some victory tomorrow or ne3t year in t'e meantime you 'ave created a model. !ou 'ave acted out 'ow future society s'ould be and you created immediate satisfaction, even if you 'ave not ac'ieved your ultimate %oal. ZV: 1hat is your opinion about different attempts to scientifically prove =a.unin's ontological assumption that human beings have "instinct for freedom", not 9ust will but also biological need2 HZ: )ctually / believe in t'is idea, but / t'ink t'at you cannot 'ave biolo%ical evidence for t'is. !ou would 'ave to find a %ene for freedom@ o. / t'ink t'e ot'er possible way is to %o by 'istory of 'uman be'avior. History of 'uman be'avior s'ows t'is desire for freedom, s'ows t'at w'enever people 'ave been livin% under tyranny, people would rebel a%ainst t'at.