+++++ Noam Chomsky Beyond Fascism By Noam Chomsky and John Holder and Doug Morris Interview with

h Noam Chomsky, conducted May 24, 2013, MIT, Cam ridge, M!" Interview conducted y John Holder and Doug Morris" #$ %e asked some Middle &chool students to su mit 'uestions" %e (ramed it around the idea that you are a )hiloso)her" They can identi(y with what a )hiloso)her does*think a out the ig 'uestions" &o, these are 'uestions (rom kids* NC$ I was in Cali(ornia a cou)le weeks ago and my daughter+in+law wanted me to give a talk to a grou) o( Cu &couts, so I gave a talk to a unch o( eight year olds" #" How long was the talkNC$ It sto))ed as soon as they got u) and started walking around" #$ !ctually, the (irst 'uestion we have is (rom a seven year old" NC$ ./" I only talk to eight year olds" #$ Beyond the seven year old, the 'uestions are (rom Middle &chool students, 01, 02, 03, ut I was talking with a (riend4s seven year old daughter and I mentioned that we would e interviewing you, and tried to give her a little conte5t, and I asked her, 6I( you were sitting down and asking Noam a 'uestion, what would you ask"7 &he said, 6Hmmm*that is easy*I would ask !hy a"e we he"e#$ NC$ There are %wo &iews a'ou% %ha% which go ack to classical 8reece, may e e(ore" .ne is we are here (or the same reason that rocks and trees and grass are here" That is 9ust the way the rules o( nature worked out, and they ha))ened to lead to us 9ust like they led to other things" The other answer, which goes ack to !ristotle actually, is that everything in nature has a )ur)ose and a (unction" !nd the )ur)ose o( rain is to let cro)s grow" That is its essence, and so on (or everything else" !nd the )ur)ose (or humans is to e rational and thought(ul and to live 6a considered li(e7 thinking a out how to do the right thing" !nd then ("is%o%le d"ew some )"e%%y u*ly conclusions +"om %ha%" He said that is only true (or educated 8reeks" .thers are not (ully human" !nd (or some, he said, their )ur)ose is to e slaves" Their )ur)ose is to serve the 6real humans,7 and there(ore we should not de)rive them (rom their (unction" &o, to li erate slaves would e criminal*even the (ailure to enslave )eo)le, so they can (ul(ill their (unction as )roviding service to real humans, that would e immoral" But, we are here ecause the creator assigned us a (unction" Then there are variations o( these" The modern view among educated )eo)le who )ay attention to what has een discovered a out the world is the (irst one" %e are here (or the same reason that other things in the universe are here" It is the way the laws o( nature work" #$ !nd that would e the Chomsky viewNC$ :es, that is my view" #$ !long those same lines, should we assume that humans are more im)ortant than other animals on the )lanetNC$ The (act o( the matter is we do assume that" There is a kind o+ in%ui%i&e &iew that almost everyone has, even (or )eo)le who do not elieve it in the rational side o( their minds" That is a view which is traditionally called ,he -"ea% Chain o+ Bein*" There is a 8reat Chain o( Being and at the to) o( it is 8od, the creator, and right elow it is angels" ;ight elow that are humans and then you kee) going down until you get to worms, and )lants, and the ottom o( the 8reat Chain o( Being" .ou e&en see i% in %he sciences" <or e5am)le, there is a lot o( work in trying to teach a)es the rudiments o( language" No ody tries to teach humans the rudiments o( ee communication" It would seem ludicrous,

what would e the )oint- It is 9ust as ludicrous to try to teach a)es its o( human language" %e do it ecause intuitively we tend to think o( the world in terms o( the 8reat Chain o( Being" &o a)es are kind o( less evolved than humans, which is totally (alse" Just as ees are not less evolved a)es" %e4ve all evolved the same amount o( time, we4ve 9ust evolved in di((erent ways" But this intuitive conce)tion that somehow we are the ruling s)ecies*and %hen o+ cou"se i% di++e"en%ia%es +u"%he"/ 0o, some o+ us a"e "eal humans, others are not real humans, or semi+humans, and a lot o( ugly things come out o( that" It is all )retty dee)ly engrained" &omething like that is true o( 9ust a out every culture that has een (ound" May e not with all o( this di((erentiation* ut something like it" It is com)letely irrational" It is kind o( like our seeing the sun go around the earth" :ou can4t hel) seeing it even i( you know it is (alse" %e all know it is (alse, ut you 9ust see it, or, seeing the moon illusion, so the moon looks igger on the hori=on when it comes u)" ./, rationally we know it is not any igger, ut you can4t hel) seeing it as igger, and we somehow can4t hel) it*since it is cognitive rather than )erce)tual we can overcome it, ut only with a great e((ort can we overcome the conce)tion o( the universe in terms o( something like the 8reat Chain o( Being" !nd it shows u) all the time" #$ &o, you don4t really elieve in inter+s)ecies communicationNC$ There is nothing to it at all" %e are not any more evolved than )roto=oa, 9ust in a di((erent line" In many ways, they do a lot etter than we do" !ctually, i( you take a look at this morning4s news)a)er, there is a recent discovery that cockroaches have evolved in such a way as to overcome the main )oisons that are used to kill them" The )oisons are ased on the idea that certain things are itter and cockroaches kee) away (rom them" ;a)id selection has shi(ted their sensors around so that things that are su))osed to taste sweet taste itter, so they don4t go to them and there(ore the )oisons don4t work" &o, they are doing etter than we do" %e can4t evolve that way" #$ To take the Devil4s !dvocate )osition (or a second, su))ose there are other sentient s)ecies on this )lanet esides human eings, and not to say that we are the est, or at the to) o( this chain, ut you don4t see any value in trying to communicate with other s)eciesNC$ &ure, you can communicate with your )et dog, and your )et dog can communicate with you, and does, and there is nothing wrong with it" But the idea o( trying to com)el a)es to mimic in a rudimentary way what humans do is scienti(ically 9ust as interesting as training humans to communicate in a rudimentary way the ways that ees do which no ody would ever dream o( ecause we think o( ourselves intuitively as somehow higher than ees, although they can do all kinds o( things we cannot do, cognitively as well" >ike you and I can4t navigate as well as an ant" #$ &o, this is (rom a (ourteen year old living in a world in which they are constantly surrounded y tragedies, and the reality o( human mortality, it is a sim)le ut com)le5 'uestion$ how do we make

sense o+ dyin*#
NC$ %ell, it has een a ig )ro lem throughout re(lective human li(e, )ro a ly all o( human li(e" In most cultures and societies it is 9ust understood as )art o( li(e" %hoever asked the 'uestion has to work it out (or himsel(" I know the way I did" How old are they#$ 03" NC$ %hen I was that age I was terri(ied o( dying" %hat struck me as terri(ying was not that I would die ut that this )oint o( consciousness would die so the whole world would disa))ear" Because, a(ter all, there is nothing out there e5ce)t what I )erceive and i( that consciousness disa))ears everything disa))ears" %hat ha))ens then- .ver time you get to recogni=e that it is 9ust )art o( li(e" !s you get older, at least to me, it seems less o( a )ro lem" !ctually, 9ust to illustrate, dramatically, las% ni*h% I came &e"y close %o dyin*, closer than I reali=ed" There was car on mono5ide" I4d (orgotten to turn the car o(( and closed the garage" The garage is under the house and car on mono5ide was see)ing into the house, you can4t smell it, it is odorless" !ctually, I would have died e5ce)t (or the (act that Bev &tohl had )ut a attery into an alarm that I didn4t even know was there,

and the alarm went o((" !nd I managed to get the car o((, ut it was that close" &o, i( it had ha))ened, it would have ha))ened" #$ But*that is tragic*i( it would have ha))ened" NC$ %ell, you know, I don4t see it that way anymore" #$ How do you see it thenNC$ It is 9ust one o( the things that ha))ens in li(e" >i(e goes on (or everyone else" #$ %hat a out the contri utions you are a le to make ecause you are here" <or e5am)le, we would not e sitting here talking today" !nd that would e a tragedy" NC$ The same is true o( everyone else" ?veryone has contri utions to make, every animal has contri utions to make" 12, so %he way %he uni&e"se wo"ks is you ha&e a +i3ed %ime on ea"%h and %hen i% is o&e"/ !nd it 9ust doesn4t seem tragic to me anymore like it used to" !ctually, my rother, who is a doctor, and does a lot with elderly )atients, tells me that at the very end, constantly, they really (ight (or li(e, as much as they may have decided that they don4t think it matters" #$ Do you think that has something to do with human consciousnessNC$ Have you ever seen a (ly in a s)ider we - It is really (ighting to get out" I don4t think (lies are thinking a out it much" #$ >et us e5tend it a it ecause this 'uestion came out o( the conte5t o( young )eo)le looking out at a world that is constantly immersed in human tragedy" &o I think in the ackground o( this 'uestion, (or young )eo)le, is 6how do we make sense o( a world in which we are constantly om arded with tragedy-7 <or e5am)le, (or most o( human history, it seems, i( a tragic event ha))ened even (i(ty miles away you would never hear a out it" Now, you turn on the radio in the morning and it is one tragedy a(ter another* constant om ardment* NC$ %ell, that is selection" I mean, you don4t see in the (ront )ages o( the news)a)er that there is a ha))y cou)le (i(ty miles away who 9ust had a lovely a y and they are 9ust over9oyed ecause this wonder(ul creature 9ust entered their lives and changed them totally, ut that is not a news item" But that doesn4t mean it is not ha))ening" 0o, %he wo"ld is +ull o+ all so"%s o+ %hin*s/ !ha% i% should do, I %hink, is im)el you %o %"y %o do wha% you can %o mi%i*a%e %he %"a*edies and )ay a%%en%ion %o wha% we may ha&e %o do wi%h %he %"a*edies, which is o+%en a lo%, and see i+ we can do some%hin* a'ou% %hem so %he"e will 'e mo"e ha))iness and 4oy and )"omise +o" %he +u%u"e and less su++e"in* and less %"a*edy/ %e ha))en to e in a )osition where we can do a lot" ;ight here we are citi=ens o( the most )ower(ul state in human history" It has enormous )otential (or good and (or harm and we can shi(t the alance i( we try and we can make a lot o( di((erence" There are a lot o( tragedies you don4t read a out" &o, (or e5am)le, we read a out the genocide in ;wanda" @AA days, 0A,AAA )eo)le killed every day" %e don4t read a out the (act that in &outhern !(rica alone, (orget the rest o( the world, 9ust &outhern !(rica alone, a out the same num er o( children are dying every day (rom easily )reventa le disease or malnutrition" They could e saved (or )ennies )er day (rom the rich countries" But we don4t read a out that 'ecause i+ we "ead a'ou% i% we would ha&e %o do some%hin* a'ou% i%, and we could/ !nd that is only one case" That is ;wanda every day, and 9ust in &outhern !(rica, and 9ust children" %e could do something a out it" !nd that is only one case" #$ In a way this )oints to the tragedy o( last evening ecause i( Noam Chomsky )erished last night that would e one less voice in the world willing to have the courage to address what most )eo)le are unwilling to address" NC$ Then others should do it" It doesn4t take any s)ecial skill or talent or even courage" It doesn4t take any

courage to say this" #$ %ith all due res)ect, I think you are eing overly modest" NC$ %ell, I4ve got a lot to e modest a out BlaughterC"

#$ %e will slightly modi(y a 'uestion (rom a student" I+ we a"e %he only sen%ien% c"ea%u"es on %his )lane%, why a"e we des%"oyin* %he en&i"onmen%# NC$ Dro a ly (or that reason" The (act is, we are a very unusual s)ecies" There is nothing like it ever through all o( evolutionary history and in the world today" !nimals, and )lants o( course, generally, ty)ically live in the world that is )resented to them" They are )resented with a world that is (i5ed" They have internal ways o( reacting to it, and that is )retty much it" To some minor e5tent they modi(y the world, ut not much, and not voluntarily" !e a"e di++e"en%/ !e li&e in a wo"ld %ha% we men%ally cons%"uc%/ &o, yes, we react to the world ut we also create mental images and thoughts and )lans and intentions which allow us to deal with the world in a totally di((erent (ashion" 5an*ua*e is in +ac% a c"ucial +ac%o"/ That is why )aleoanthro)ologists, )eo)le who study human origins, ty)ically think o( language as the de(ining (eature that se)arated humans (rom the rest o( the organic world and sent them o(( in a very di((erent direction" Now, i( we look at our history Band y 6our history7 I mean way ack e(ore there were humansC, modern humans, e(ore homo+sa)iens, going ack to our origins it is a very )redatory and destructive s)ecies" 0o, 'ack as +a" as we can %"ace i%, whe"e )"e6humans, o" )"o%o6humans, whe"e %hey s)"ead, la"*e animals disa))ea"ed, me*a6+auna, 'i* animals, 'ecause %hey we"e killed/ ( cou)le o+ hund"ed %housand yea"s a*o %he"e we"e many di++e"en% hominids, c"ea%u"es like ou" ances%o"s, ou" ances%o"s we"e one o+ many *"ou)s7we a"e %he only ones %ha% su"&i&ed/ ,he only one, and %he "eason +o" %ha% may 'e, no'ody "eally knows, is we 4us% killed %he "es% o+ %hem o++/ 8eologists reak u) the geological )ast into eras" &o, there was the Dleistocene era (rom 1 E million years ago u) to a out ten thousand years ago" Then there is the Holocene which is ten thousand years ago u) until now, e5ce)t now they are introducing a new one called the !nthro)ocene which is on humans, the human era, which is (rom may e 0FGA until today, and that is the )eriod when we egan radically modi(ying the environment, so much that it is a new geological era, and we4re destroying it in (act" But 9ust take a look at these eras, and I could have gone (arther ack" !s you go through the eras each one gets shorter" !nd the Holocene is very short, and the !nthro)ocene is like an instant o( geological time and it may not last long ecause we may end it )retty soon" &o, why are we doing it- That is the way we are using our intelligence, 9ust as )roto+human intelligence was used to kill ig mammals" It is not a )retty )icture" !nd we can control it o( course, ecause we do have this ca)acity to kind o( create the world in which we (unction, ut it has to e understood and used" !nd it is )retty striking to notice what is ha))ening right now, e(ore our eyes" There is no serious dou t that there is a very serious environmental crisis coming" :ou can de ate details ut the general )icture is clear" There are )eo)le who deny it o( course, ut nevertheless it is e5tremely hard to deny i( you are at all serious" !nd there are )eo)le reacting in di((erent ways" There are some who are reacting y trying to do something a out it and arrest the disaster or may e save the )ros)ects (or a decent survival" !nd there are others who are trying to race (orward towards disaster" It is 'uite interesting to see who they are" ,he ones who a"e %"yin* %o sa&e %he s)ecies +"om disas%e" a"e %he ones we call )"imi%i&e, %"i'al )eo)les, a'o"i*inal, (irst nations )eo)le in Canada, !divasi tri al )eo)les in India, they are trying to save the )lanet, and in (act in )laces where they have a degree o( )ower they are actually doing something a out it" Bolivia ha))ens to e in the lead in trying to do something" There the indigenous )o)ulation is

actually a ma9ority, and y now there are even Constitutional )rovisions (or what they call "i*h%s o+ na%u"e8 nature has rights we have to )reserve which is an as)ect o( traditional societies that shows u) in one way or another" ?cuador, which has a large indigenous )o)ulation, and an in(luential one, ?cuador is an oil )roducer, and right now they are trying to get assistance to kee) the oil in the ground where it ought to e" They are trying to get assistance (rom the richer countries to ena le them to do that which they )ro a ly won4t get" %ell, that is ha))ening all over the world, o))osition to mining, to resource destruction, to (ossil (uel use, everywhere" -o %o %he o%he" e3%"eme, %he "iches% and mos% )owe"+ul coun%"ies in %he wo"ld, like %he 9ni%ed 0%a%es and Canada, )a"%icula"ly" %e are leading the race to disaster" %hen the )resident and the )olitical o))osition are eu)horic a out what they call a hundred years o( energy inde)endence they are talking a out a hundred years o( race toward destroying the environment, ecause that is what it means" .( roughly a hundred relevant countries, the Hnited &tates and Canada are )ro a ly the only ones who have no national )rograms (or limiting (ossil (uel use, no national conditions on renewa le energy" %e can4t say others are doing magni(icently, ut at least they are doing something" %e4re not" &o, you have on the one hand a race to disaster, kind o( like the )rover ial lemmings going o(( the cli((, led y the richest, most )ower(ul, most advanced, most educated, and su))osedly enlightened sectors o( the world, and on the other hand you have an e((ort to )revent the disaster, to mitigate it, to deal with it, coming (rom those we call )rimitive and uneducated" I( there is ever a (uture historian they are going to look ack at this )eriod with ama=ement" #$ :ou said that started around roughly 0FGA, this race to disaster, does that corres)ond to the growth o( ca)ital as wellNC$ Industriali=ation, which 'uickly ecame ca)ital" The Holocene egins a out the time o( the rise o( agriculture and the receding o( the ice ages which coincided" #$ It was announced recently that we have )assed a dangerous climate threshold" NC$ :es, 3AA )arts )er million C.1" %e have reached what has een regarded as a threshold (rom which there may e no return" It is a very serious (inding" It4s een coming" There has een )lenty o( evidence (or it" I( you (ollow these things closely, every issue o( a science maga=ine has some new serious warning" ! cou)le o( weeks ago there was a re)ort in &cience, the main science weekly in the Hnited &tates, that there had een the (irst studies o( GAA years o( analysis o( )erma(rost, o( &i erian )erma(rost" !nd you can detect how climatic warming a((ected the melting o( the )erma(rost" !nd according to the conclusions o( this article, which are )retty dire, even the antici)ated level o( warming, not the )ro9ected ones, the conservative antici)ated level, even that would e su((icient to melt the )erma(rost which means allowing the esca)e o( enormous masses o( methane which is even more destructive than car on dio5ide, and that sets o(( an escalating )rocess that could 9ust take o((" + #$ <rom a 02 year old, and in some sense you4ve addressed this, ut they ask it in this manner" :ou have mentioned that 6the (ate o( the s)ecies is at stake,7 and that might mean that our (uture as young )eo)le is at stake, so wha% can we do as youn* )eo)le to ensure that we even have a (utureNC$ %ell, I don4t want to e too alarmist a out it" It is not that the s)ecies is going to die o((" It will mean that the conditions (or what we regard as minimally decent e5istence may shar)ly deteriorate" &o, (or e5am)le, all o( Boston could e under water" .( course, (or )oor countries such as Bangladesh it is an utter catastro)he (or hundreds o( millions o( )eo)le" In &outh !sia the glaciers are melting in the Himalayas" I( that melting reaches a certain )oint, &outh !sia, with hundreds o( millions o( )eo)le, could ecome unliva le" These are really serious conse'uences" Humans will survive ut in a very di((erent world" &o what can we do a out it- %e can do what the so called 6)rimitive7 )eo)le are doing, arrest it" :ou don4t have to li(t every dro) o( hydro+car ons out o( the earth" It could stay in the earth where it ought to e" !nd, we could devote our energies not to wasting as much (ossil (uel as we can ut to develo)ing alternatives

which will allow a surviva le society" It is technically (easi le, it is a matter o( choices, and we have the choices" !nd young )eo)le, the 'uestioner is e5actly right, this generation may already egin to see it in a serious way*their children even more so" #$ %hen you were addressing a room(ul o( eight year olds, what was the general to)ic o( discussionNC$ I talked a out this in a way that I ho)ed was understanda le to eight year olds" #$ %hat was to)ical (or themNC: !ha% is %o)ical +o" %hem, unless some'ody *e%s %hem %o %hink a'ou% i%, is 4us% wha% is immedia%e, like can I *e% an i;ad# #$ .r an ice creamNC$ Dro a ly an iDad is more likely" BlaughterC #$ &u))ose they were sitting here, how would you take u) these issues with eight year oldsNC$ ?ssentially what I 9ust said, which you can say at any level" :ou can talk to graduate students in the sciences, or you can talk to eight year olds at one level or another" It is the same issues" I don4t know i( I am the one to do it )ro)erly ut you can try to do it" :ou can do it with your own children, which we did in (act" + #$ I( someone suggested that the 9ni%ed 0%a%es is mo&in* mo"e and mo"e %owa"d +o"ms o+ +ascism, would you (ind evidence that it is trueNC$ .h yea, very striking evidence" In (act, I never really e5)ected much (rom . ama, I thought it was mostly hot air, ut one thing has sur)rised me and that is %he in%ensi%y o+ his a%%ack on ci&il li'e"%ies which goes eyond any rational e5)lanation I can think o( Iunintelligi leJ* and it shows u) in a lot o( ways" &ome o( the ways are very dramatic and not having to do with the ?5ecutive Branch, it is the way the society and the economy are develo)ing" &o, (or e5am)le, a cou)le o( weeks ago there was an article in the New :ork Times 6Business &ection,7 may e you saw it, on something called -oo*le -lass/ 8oogle is manu(acturing glasses, they may e on the market already, which have a small com)uter em edded in them, a tiny com)uter, which allows you to e on the Internet twenty+(our hours a day" That in itsel( is such an indictment o( modern society I don4t even want to talk a out it" But, it is worse than that ecause this device also takes )hotogra)hs o( anything that is going on, and I )resume either already or soon it will take recordings o( everything that is going on" &o everything that is going on around the )erson wearing this thing goes u) on the Internet" The re)orter asked <"ic 0chmid%, one o( the (ounders o( 8oogle, whether he didn4t think this was an invasion o( )rivacy" !nd his answer I think may e the slogan o( the coming age" His answer was !ell, i+ you a"e doin* some%hin* you don$% wan% %o 'e on %he In%e"ne% %hen you shouldn$% 'e doin* i%/ I don4t know i( (ascism is 'uite the right word, it goes eyond that*this conce)%ion %ha% any%hin* has %o 'e )u'lic, and to some e5tent I think that is see)ing into the consciousness o( young )eo)le" I don4t look at <ace ook ut )eo)le who do tell me %he e3hi'i%ionism o( young )eo)le is 9ust (rightening*anything has to e on the Internet, anything I do" !nd the conce)tion that everything has to e )u lic goes eyond anything that Big Brother ever thought a out" I( you look at the technology 9ournals, like the MI, ,echnolo*y =e&iew, you see more and more o( it coming out" &o there was a news item in a recent issue which said that cor)orations are eginning to e cautious a out using com)uters with )arts that are manu(actured in China ecause it is now a))arently technically )ossi le to uild into the com)onents o( a com)uter some device that detects everything the com)uter is doing, every keystroke and sends it ack to 6Deo)le4s >i eration !rmy Head'uarters7 in China" %ell, they did not go on to say that i( they can do it in China they can do it here much etter" &o that holds (or every com)uter that is manu(actured here or manu(actured y a H"&" cor)oration, and i( it isn4t ha))ening now it could e ha))ening and it may e soon which means that everything you do on your

com)uter *oes o++ %o Bi* B"o%he" in%o %he hu*e da%a'ase 1'ama is cons%"uc%in* in 9%ah/ (nd, i% *e%s wo"se/ > htt)$KKwww"technologyreview"comKnewsKG0LGLLKusing+a+smart)hones+eyes+and+ears+to+log+your+every+ moveK &aga4s li(e+summari=ing (eatures + There was 9ust a re)ort (rom one o( the main ro otics la s" They4ve een working (or I think ten years trying to develo) ro ots, meaning drones essentially, controlled "o'o%s %he si?e o+ +lies/ The military has een interested in this ecause it could mean that you have surveillance o( what is going on in your living room or your kitchen and you wouldn4t notice it ecause it is 9ust a (ly u) there" That makes everything )u lic" %ell again, you can4t call it (ascism ecause (ascists never dreamed o( it" .rwell never dreamed o( it" It is eyond anything" !nd it is within reach and may e ha))ening" !nd it is eing acce)ted" !e li&e in a su"&eillance socie%y o+ a kind %ha% "eally has no% e3is%ed 'e+o"e and i% is acce)%ed " &ome are more e5treme than us, like Britain, cameras everywhere, recording everywhere" Chances are anything you do electronically at least can e )icked u), may e is eing )icked u) y surveillance systems" !nd ?ric &chmidt4s thesis, which he wasn4t critici=ing, he said that is the way it ought to e, could well ecome the slogan o( the coming age unless something is done to )revent it" There can e (orce ehind it too" I4m 9ust talking a out the surveillance as)ect" 1nce da%a is collec%ed %ha% %ells you e&e"y%hin* a'ou% a )e"son, may'e includin* a lo% o+ +a'"ica%ion, which also ha))ens, %hen %he"e is a lo% o+ con%"ol %ha% can *o alon* wi%h i%/ #$ %hat you are descri ing sounds like the worst as)ects o( a Dhili) /" Dick novel" NC$ .(#$ Dhili) /" Dick, the science (iction writer" NC$ I don4t know him" But this is worse than any science (iction I know o(, and it is real, straight out o( the technology 9ournals" It is not science (iction" #$ %hat a out the )sychic e((ect o( knowing that you are living in a society where you understand that you are under constant surveillance, even in terms o( the im)act on the activist communityNC$ %hat I think is most worrisome is wha% I$&e 'een %old a% leas% a'ou% child"en and Face'ook, %ha% %hey a"e acce)%in* i% as le*i%ima%e, that you should e5)ose everything to the )u lic" #$ &o, in other words, (rom our )ers)ective, ased on our age, we see that there should e limits, there should e some )rivacy, ut these kids are not seeing thatNC$ That is the im)ression I get" !s I say, I don4t investigate it mysel(, ut I have (riends who asically try to monitor their children on <ace ook and a lot o( them are 9ust a))alled y what they see" Things that you and I would never have dreamed o( making )u lic" This idea that you somehow have to e in touch with anything that is ha))ening in the world shows u) in all kinds o( ways" :ou may have seen over the winter, there were re)orts in the )ress, may e the Boston 8lo e, a strange e)idemic that was s)reading among teenage girls in Boston, and they could not (igure out what it was, ut there was a lot o( illness" They (inally traced it" It was (atigue" It was (atigue ecause the kids were going to ed with their cell )hones in their hands so that in case, at three o4clock in the morning, some ody you know had a sandwich you have to know a out it, and you can4t let it go so there(ore they were not slee)ing" #$ :ou have got to e 9okingNC$ I don4t think it is a 9oke"

#$ This a))lies to another 'uestion a student asked" .n the one hand li(e is sort o( a hy)er+s)ectacle, ut then the student asks !hy is school so 'o"in*# NC$ That is a very good 'uestion" &chool doesn4t have to e oring" &chool can e the most e5citing e5)erience you ever had, and it sometimes is" I( schools are oring it is ecause decisions are made to make

them oring, and some o( these decisions are at a (ederal level, and some at a state level, ut they are decisions" &o the conce)tion o( teaching to tests is designed to make education as oring, and stu)id, and stulti(ying as )ossi le" In a )lace like MIT, a research oriented institution, the idea would e outlandish" :ou are trying to encourage )eo)le to 'uestion, to challenge, to create, to think (or themselves" :ou can use tests ut only as a monitor, you know, let4s see how well things are going, or see the things we are missing" But the idea o( making the goal teaching to tests is grotes'ue" !ctually, this goes ack to the ?nlightenment" I( we go ack to the ?nlightenment, hundreds o( years ago, there were de ates*this was the eginning o( thinking a out large scale education, not 9ust (or the aristocracy" !nd there were kind o( %wo models %ha% we"e )"esen%ed" This is hundreds o( years ago, eighteenth century" In one model, the image that was used was thinking o( education as )ouring water into a vessel" That is teaching to tests" :ou )our water into a vessel then it is returned to you" !ny ody our age, or who has een through school, has had )lenty o( e5)eriences where you had to study (or an e5am in some course you weren4t interested in, and you studied and you learned everything you had to learn, and you )assed the e5am and a week later you (orgot what the course was a out" That is )ouring water into a vessel" The other model, the image that was used y one o( the (ounders o( the modern higher education system I!ilhelm &on @um'old%J, in the eighteenth century, was that education should e like laying out a string along which the student )rogresses in his or her own way" There is some structure, you are trying to achieve something, ut the idea is to encourage individual in'uiry, and the 9oy o( discovery, and o( challenge, and may e moving the string, ecause it should have gone some other )lace" .ne o( the great modern )hysicists who taught here, Aic%o" !eissko)+, was (amous (or a comment he would make to (reshmen classes, he taught (reshmen )hysics, i( students asked him 6%hat are we covering this semester,7 he would say 6It doesn4t matter what we cover, it matters what you discover,7 ecause then you will learn how to discover, and you will learn how im)ortant it is, and i( he didn4t cover something, (ine, you will do it yoursel( a(ter you know how to learn" There is a lot o( discussion a out this, )articularly in science education where you 9ust have to have constant challenging and 'uestioning" :ou know, )ressing the oundaries or the (ield is going to die" &o there the idea o( teaching to the test is really anathema, ut that is now the national )rogram" #$ %hy im)ose such a oring )ro9ect o( education on a whole )o)ulation o( youngstersNC$ :ou can s)eculate a out the reasons, ut I should say this was discussed in %he 1B%h cen%u"y he"e, "i*h% he"e in +ac% in Massachuse%%s, when the eginnings o( mass )u lic education were starting which was a )ositive develo)ment" It is im)ortant to have mass )u lic education and the H"&" was a kind o( )ioneer in that" But =al)h !aldo <me"son wrote at the time that he sees that )ower(ul )eo)le are (avoring mass education and when he asks them why they say, 6%ell, it is ecause millions o( voters are coming along, )eo)le are gaining the right to vote, and we have to make sure to educate them to kee) them (rom our throats"7 In other words, educate them (or )assivity and o edience and not (or thinking and 'uestioning (or themselves, ecause then they are going to come a(ter our throats" They are going to say 6we don4t want to e su ordinated to your )ower"7 These are concerns that go way ack in history" &o, in the 0Fth century in ?ngland were the (irst modern democratic revolutions" !nd it was during the ?nglish Civil %ar" The ?nglish Civil %ar )itted )arliament against the king, ut there were also itinerant )reachers, activists, )am)hlets, a lot o( )o)ular organi=ing which was )retty radical democratic" !nd the gentry, the rich guys were a(raid o( it" !nd they lamented that they hear )eo)le saying, and I am 'uoting here, !e don$% wan% ei%he" kin* o" )a"liamen%8 we don$% wan% %o 'e "uled 'y *en%lemen, kni*h%s and *en%lemen who 'u% o))"ess us/ !e wan% %o 'e *o&e"ned 'y coun%"ymen like ou"sel&es who know %he )eo)le$s so"es/ %ell, that is dangerous and you have got to make sure that you have an educational system that drives any thoughts like that out o( )eo)le4s heads" The ra le is not allowed to think (or themselves"

These thoughts run right through to the )resent" They enter into the )u lic relations industry, into li eral intellectual thought a out how democracy ought to work, and into the educational system" %hether this is the "eason +o" %"yin* %o dum' down %he educa%ion sys%em or not, well you can s)eculate, ut there certainly is a history that goes (ar ack and it is intelligi le" #$ %asn4t there an incentive (or the usiness class to train the )u lic so that way they would have use(ul workers in the (actories and so (orth, ut now that is no longer the caseNC$ .h, it is" !ctually, i( you go ack to the origins o( the mass education system in the Hnited &tates, a large )art o( the goal was to %ake inde)enden% +a"me"s, who %ended %o 'e )"e%%y "adical, and %o %u"n %hem in%o %ools o+ )"oduc%ion in a disci)lined +ac%o"y se%%in*/ !nd )eo)le resisted it enormously, ut that was a large )art o( the education system" But you still need it" :ou may not need )eo)le to turn screws and so on ut they want a service )o)ulation" They need )eo)le who are going to make the world work, not 9ust e )redators on %all &treet eating away at and destroying the social order while they )our money into their )ockets" &ome ody is going to have to do the work o( the society" "

#$ 8iven the world that you4ve een descri ing,

when you$&e 'een asked o&e" %he yea"s wha% )eo)le can do %o +i*h% 'ack, %y)ically you 'e*in 'y sayin* )eo)le ha&e %o lea"n how %o o"*ani?e" Do you think that organi=ing in 1A02 calls (or some di((erent tactics and strategies than
organi=ing in the 0M2As or 0MLAsNC$ &ure, there are di((erent issues" There are a num er o( issues that are very striking now that weren4t or at least we didn4t know were (i(ty years ago, (or e5am)le, the things we have talked a out" <i(ty years ago I, and others, didn4t understand how dire the en&i"onmen%al c"isis is" Now we know, so we should e organi=ing a out that" %e did know, and didn4t do enough a out it, how dire the threat o( nuclea" wa" is, and that is may e even growing" It is still very serious" The changes in the economic system in the last (orty years have raised new dangers" I( you go ack (orty years ago the anks were asically small institutions in which you )ut your e5cess (unds and they lent them to some ody to uy a car or something like that" That has changed enormously" By now what are called anks are investment (irms and are close to hal( o( the economy and they are mostly destructive" &ome estimates coming (rom the International Monetary <und are that )ractically their entire )ro(its come (rom the *o&e"nmen% insu"ance )olicy which is huge" It is not 9ust the ailouts that )eo)le see, that is 9ust the (roth on the to)" They have a lot o( conse'uences, the 6too ig to (ail7 )olicy, credit ratings im)rove, you get chea) money in all kinds o( ways, and it adds u) to huge )ro(its" It is mostly destructive to the economy" ?conomists don4t study it very much, which is interesting ecause it is an enormous )henomenon" But the (ew who do suggest that it is )ro a ly )retty harm(ul" In (act, )ro a ly the leading (inancial corres)ondent in the ?nglish s)eaking world, the most res)ected one, is Ma"%in !ol+ o( the >ondon <inancial Times" He descri es the mode"n +inancial ins%i%u%ions as like a la"&a %ha% ea%s away a% i%s hos% +"om %he inside and des%"oys i%/ ,he la"&a 'ein* %he ma"ke% sys%em/ It is a )retty )otent image and he has got a lot to suggest it" &o that is a new to)ic" !nd that leads to all sorts o( s)eci(ic issues like say a (inancial transactions ta5, reaking u) the ig anks, ending the government insurance )olicy*I mean all kinds o( things*turning the huge resources that are availa le into )roductive work" htt)$KK logs"(t"comKmartin+wol(+e5changeK htt)$KKwww"(t"comKintlKcommentKcolumnistsKmartin+wol( I( you take a look at the society today it is really kind o( surreal" :ou4ve got over twenty million )eo)le in the Hnited &tates looking (or work, many more who have sim)ly given u) looking, and many more than that who are underem)loyed, either )art time or way elow their skill level" It is a huge human cost" I mean these )eo)le are kind o( destroyed, and it is 9ust a straight economic course" There is a lot we can do, there are resources that aren4t eing used" It is not that there is nothing to e done" :ou 9ust take a look around the country and you can see the immense num'e"s o+ %hin*s %ha% ou*h% %o 'e done/ !nd it is not ecause

there are no resources" Cor)orations have money coming out o( their )ockets" They don4t know what to do with it, higher )ro(its than ever" The (inancial institutions are igger and richer than ever to do more destruction" &o, you have got this situation in which there are a huge num er o( idle hands wanting to work, eager to work, you have a huge amount o( work that needs to e done, you have enormous resources to do it, and the system is so corru)t it can4t )ut these things together" That is kind o( an astonishing situation" !nd it is not ecause o( laws o( nature" These are 9ust the way the institutions are structured" They can e changed" !ctually, we are doing etter than ?uro)e" It is not that we are at the ottom o( the )ile"

#$ %e 9ust )assed the 0Ath anniversary o( the H"&" led attack on Ira' and su se'uent occu)ation" Thousands died, and y one account )erha)s more than a million )eo)le were unnecessarily killed" Hnless I missed it I did not see any arrests, any trials, or any )rosecution o( the )eo)le in this country res)onsi le (or these deaths" NC$ It is worse than that" It is ad enough, yes, hundreds o( thousands died, )erha)s more, there were may e (our million re(ugees, millions o( them dis)laced out o( the country, )ro a ly (orty )ercent o( the intellectual class, %he educa%ed class is *one, %he cul%u"al sys%em is des%"oyed, i% was )"ac%ically a% +i"s% wo"ld s%anda"ds, %he mos% ad&anced in %he ("a' wo"ld7devastated" The society is arely emerging (rom the destruction" :ou read the news)a)ers there are om ings every day, struggles every day" !)art (rom the destruction the invasion triggered an ethnic con(lict, a &unniK&hiite con(lict which had not e5isted e(ore and ecame e5tremely itter and rutal in Ira', ut (urthermore has now s)read all over the region" That is the heart o( the destruction in &yria (or e5am)le" It is develo)ing regional con(licts which could e enormously harm(ul" !ll o( these are conse'uences o( the invasion" Now there are some )rinci)les which may e we don4t like to think a out ut they are there and we created them, we esta lished them" Those are the (ounding )rinci)les o( modern international law which comes straight out o( the Nurem erg Tri unal, and they can4t e re)eated too o(ten" The Nurem erg Tri unal which led to the hanging o( 8erman war criminals declared that a**"ession is %he 0u)"eme In%e"na%ional C"ime di++e"in* +"om o%he" wa" c"imes in %ha% i% includes all o+ %he e&il %ha% +ollows, all, like everything I 9ust descri ed" !nd another comment made y ;o ert Jackson, Justice ;o ert Jackson who was Chie( H"&" )rosecutor at Nurem erg, he addressed the tri unal and said that 6we should understand that we are handing the de(endants here a )oisoned chalice y killing them and i( we si) (rom it ourselves we must have the same 9udgment or else we must concede this is 9ust (arce, victor4s 9ustice"7 This was as clear a case o( aggression as you can imagine" It meets every criterion (or aggression, so all the rest (ollows" !nd what also (ollows it what you 9ust said" Not a word a out it" #$ H"&" su))orted -ua%emalan 8eneral ;ios Montt was (ound guilty o( crimes against humanity, and a (ew days later he was (reed" Do you think it was )ressure (rom the H"&" to release him so as not to create a )recedentNC$ I sus)ect it is (rom the 8uatemalan elite" But when you s)eak a out the 8uatemalan elite you have to ask the 'uestion o( why they are there" How come this vicious grou) o( ?uro)eani=ed elite elements is running the society- There is a reason (or that" It goes ack (i(ty years and everything since" <i(ty years ago there were the eginnings o( a democratic revolution in 8uatemala" The Hnited &tates would not tolerate it" It is actually si5ty years, 1BC4/ !nd the H"&", under ?isenhower, carried out a military cou) which eliminated and destroyed the rising democratic system which would have increased )o)ular )ower and reduced, may e eliminated the voracious, destructive ?uro)eani=ed elite" %e )ut them ack in )ower, instituted military dictatorshi)s which have een tearing the country to shreds ever since with constant H"&" su))ort, including the )eriod o( ;ios Montt4s genocidal acts in the highlands, strongly su))ort y ;onald ;eagan" Congress )ut some limited restrictions on it, so he turned elsewhere, )rimarily to Israel to )rovide the wea)ons and the training and so on which were used to im)lement the virtual genocide, ut it actually goes eyond"

To this day, Mayans are (leeing to the Hnited &tates, trying to cross the order in Me5ico to get away (rom the destruction that we are res)onsi le (or" Do you see any talk a out that- :ou do see re)orts a out the immigrants and what a ig )ro lem it is, and you see some re)orts a out the ;ios Montt trial, and sometimes you see a re)ort saying that Clinton a)ologi=ed" ./, nice" Did the Na=is who were hanged at Nurem erg a)ologi=e- No" But )utting it all together- Try to (ind thatN +++++ +++++