Open public services

in a global marketplace

Reform-Tata Consultancy Services seminar series

Global solutions for open public services

Tim Jones, Chief Executive, National Employment Savings Trust Corporation
Tuesday 11 September 2012

A flexible workforce: Improving skills mobility for economic growth

Mark Harper MP, Minister of State for Immigration
Thursday 6 December 2012

The role of the Civil Service in delivering open public services

Hon Bernard Jenkin MP, Chair, Public Administration Select Committee
Wednesday 12 December 2012
Reform is an independent, non-party think tank whose
mission is to set out a better way to deliver public services
and economic prosperity.
We believe that by reforming the public sector, increasing
investment and extending choice, high quality services can
be made available for everyone.
Our vision is of a Britain with 21st Century healthcare,
high standards in schools, a modern and efficient
transport system, safe streets, and a free, dynamic and
competitive economy.

Kindly sponsored by:

Reform
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T 020 7799 6699

info@reform.co.uk
www.reform.co.uk
Reform-Tata Consultancy Services seminar series
Attendees
Global solutions for open
public services
Patrick Barbour
Matthew Burgess
General Secretary,
Independent Schools Council
Kate Blatchford
Analyst, Office of Fair Trading
Richard Bacon MP
Member, Public Accounts
Select Committee
Catherine Davies
Director, Cooperation and
Competition Panel
Tom Frusher
Director, Public Affairs and
Communications, McKesson
UK
John Godfrey
Corporate Affairs Director,
Legal and General Group
Savas Hadjipavlou
Business Director, Probation
Chiefs Association
Andrew Haldenby
Director, Reform
Simon Hill
Head of Corporate Affairs,
Cerner
Richard Jeffery
Managing Director, AOM
Erica Jobson
Senior Advocate (Public
Services), Which?
Tim Jones
Chief Executive, NEST
Corporation
Tara Majumdar
Researcher, Reform
Gemma Norman
Policy and Research
Advisor, Business Services
Association
Jonty Olliff-Cooper
Director of Strategy, A4e
Neil Rutledge
Partner, Grant Thornton UK
LLP
Keith Sharp
Vice President, Tata
Consultancy Services (TCS)
Kate Steadman
Director, Government &
Strategy, Sodexo Justice
Services
Damien Venkatasamy
Director Public Sector
UK and Ireland for Tata
Consultancy Services (TCS)
A flexible workforce:
Improving skills mobility
for economic growth
Robert Arnott
Director, Performance and
Compliance Unit, UK Border
Agency
Jo Attwooll
Policy Advisor, Universities
UK
Adrian Bailey MP
Chair, Business, Innovation
and Skills Committee
Richard Beamish
Interim Chief Officer, Alliance
of Sector Skills Councils
Jean Candler
Interim Head of Current
Affairs, Million +
Sophie Carter
Researcher, Office of Alan
Shelbrooke MP
Peter Cunnane
City Affairs Officer, City of
London
Andrew Haldenby
Director, Reform
Mark Harper MP
Minister of State for
Immigration
Carrie Hartnell
Associate Director, Intellect
Mark Hilton
Programme Director for
Education and Employment,
London First
HE Thambynathan Jasudasen
High Commissioner, Embassy
of Singapore
Toomas Kull
NASSCOM UK
Tara Majumdar
Researcher, Reform
Ann McKechin MP
Member, Business,
Innovation and Skills
Committee
Julia Onslow-Cole
Partner and Head of
Immigration, PwC
Steve Radley
Director of Policy, EEF
Keith Sharp
Vice President, Tata
Consultancy Services (TCS)
Ceri Smith
Director, Labour Markets,
Department for Business,
Innovation and Skills
Damien Venkatasamy
Director Public Sector
UK and Ireland for Tata
Consultancy Services (TCS)
Glyn Williams
Head of Migration Policy,
Immigration and Border Policy
Directorate, Home Office
The role of the Civil
Service in delivering
open public services
Richard Bacon MP
Member, Public Accounts
Committee
Marcial Boo
Director of Strategy,
Communications and
Knowledge, National Audit
Office
Lee Bruce
Public Affairs and Campaigns
Advisor, Local Government
Association
Michael Burton
Director, The Municipal
Journal
Ian Dodge
Director, NHS Policy
and Outcomes Group,
Department of Health
Jane Dudman
Editor, Guardian Public
Leaders Network
Dr Chris Gibson-Smith
Chairman, London Stock
Exchange
www.reform.co.uk
Andrew Haldenby
Director, Reform
Hon Bernard Jenkin MP
Chair, Public Administration
Select Committee
Erica Jobson
Senior Advocate, Which?
Ed Jones
Account Director,
Hanover Communications
Stephen Kelly
Chief Operating Officer for
Government, Cabinet Office
Tara Majumdar
Researcher, Reform
Jonty Olliff-Cooper
Director of Policy, A4e
John Owen
Director, Strategic Markets,
Serco UK and Europe, Serco
Group
Zoe Paxton
Chief Press Officer,
Communications Directorate,
Cabinet Office
Charlie Pickles
Government Relations,
Accenture
Greg Rosen
Consultant Director, Reform
Keith Sharp
Vice President, Tata
Consultancy Services (TCS)
Mary Starks
Senior Director, Office of Fair
Trading
John Telling
Director, Group Corporate
Affairs, MITIE Group
Peter Thomas
Director, Strategy and
Change, Institute for
Government
Damien Venkatasamy
Director Public Sector
UK and Ireland for Tata
Consultancy Services (TCS)
Debra Willis
UK Government Relations
Manager, HP
1
 Reform-Tata Consultancy Services seminar series

Reform comment

Andrew Haldenby,
Director,
Reform

The challenge for the UK in coming years is The seminar discussed natural concerns over the
twofold: to reinvigorate the economy and reform accountability of global partnerships that spend public
the public sector and government. The recent Tata money. In my experience, one of the great benefits of
Consultancy Services (TCS) / Reform series had private sector delivery is that the process of agreeing
much to say on these overriding policy objectives. exact contracts greatly increases transparency
and accountability compared to the public sector
Immigration policy is now recognised as being
alternative. All private sector providers should aim to
an integral part of the growth agenda. As with
be as open as possible about their contracting (with
all regulation, businesses are just as worried
the exception of their intellectual property).
about uncertainty over policy as the policy itself.
The prospect of greater restrictions on skilled Successful partnership requires intelligent clients on
immigration in future has been exercising the minds the government side. The third seminar in the series
of international businesses in the UK. For this identified the success factors needed to spread
reason Mark Harper’s determination to stabilise good practice in that regard. The Chief Operating
immigration policy, and his statement that the Home Officer for Government, Stephen Kelly, made
Office is “signed up to delivering growth”, were absolutely clear his personal commitment to reform
highly important. and improvement. A number of participants
emphasised that the frequent rotation of officials
The seminar also identified the importance of
greatly hinders the ability of government to develop
delivery. Politicians will not be confident to engage
skills, capability and competence. The discussion
the public on the benefits of immigration if the
supported the new urgency that Francis Maude, the
day-to-day management of the service is unreliable.
Minister for the Cabinet Office, has brought to the
The seminar benefited a great deal from the
delivery of civil service reform.
participation not only of the Minister but also key
Parliamentarians and leading officials from a number A country with the right immigration policy, with an
of departments. openness to global innovation in public services and
with excellent government procurement has much to
Harnessing global talent will also benefit UK public
look forward to. The TCS / Reform series will help
services in the future. The first seminar in the series
policy makers move towards that vision.
presented a valuable case study of global
partnership in public service delivery: the successful
administration of the NEST workplace pensions
scheme by TCS staff in the UK and India. The point
is not that all services should be delivered by private
operators or indeed by private operators overseas. It
is that competition from the widest possible range of
providers will reduce costs and increase innovation
to the benefit of UK consumers.

2 www.reform.co.uk
Reform-Tata Consultancy Services seminar series
Tata Consultancy Services
(TCS) comment
Damien Venkatasamy,
Director Public Sector UK and
Ireland for Tata Consultancy
Services (TCS)
On behalf of Tata Consultancy Services (TCS) I am
delighted to provide this foreword and to have
supported this seminar series. At TCS we are
convinced more than ever that the current era of
public service transformation will require new
thinking and innovative global solutions, which utilise
a flexible, mobile and highly capable workforce. We
are grateful for the important contributions of Tim
Jones, Chief Executive Officer at the National
Employers Savings Trust (NEST), Mark Harper MP,
Minister of State for Immigration and Hon Bernard
Jenkin MP, Chair of the Public Administration Select
Committee, as well as all of the other organisations
who participated. The seminars were very thought
provoking and topical, and I am pleased to have
contributed to the debates on these critical issues.
Our experience working with both governments and
the private sector globally is that where the challenges
are really understood and the solution energetically
embraced, transformation gives rise to service
improvement and cost savings. In many respects,
the challenges currently faced by governments all
over the world are similar to those that have been
faced by the private sector for many years, whereby
organisations must evolve if they are to succeed over
their competitors. Although the same pressures do
not apply to governments, it is clear that other
parallels with the private sector hold true.
Technology-enabled business change has been at
the forefront of tackling the often conflicting priorities
of cost reduction and service improvement. Within
the UK Public Sector, TCS is partnering with central
and local government to deliver technology-enabled
transformation of: pensions administration services
for the National Employment Savings Trust (NEST),
casework management for the Child Maintenance
Group (CMG), back-office processes for Cardiff City
Council, grants administration for the Big Lottery
Fund, and criminal record and barring checks for the
Home Office’s Disclosure and Barring Service (DBS).
The Benefits of Leveraging Global Solutions
and Experience
The UK is not unique in needing to transform
services and reset the relationship between the
state and the citizen. Across the world organisations
are adapting and providing citizens with more
personalised services, such as new mobile payment
systems for Indian farmers or the use of self-service
kiosks for probation management in New York. The
UK should look globally for the design and delivery
of new approaches and import expertise when it
does not exist nationally.
A key benefit of global delivery is speed – i.e. the
ability to scale up and deliver complex projects to
tight deadlines. Within this approach, the ability to
exploit skills availability and existing assets, such
as operational delivery centres, is critical, wherever
they may be in the world. By harnessing our global
delivery model to support our thousands of
permanent UK staff, TCS has been able to transform
public services in the UK. The Open Public Services
White Paper provided a clear indication that the Civil
Service is ready to embrace global solutions, where
they are appropriate to the needs of users. We heard
from Tim Jones, the Chief Executive of National
Employment Savings Trust (NEST), about how
adopting a global approach to delivery has helped
to ensure the effective administration of millions of
pensions’ accounts and hundreds of thousands
of employer-customer relationships to deliver
www.reform.co.uk 3
 Reform-Tata Consultancy Services seminar series
auto-enrolment for workplace pensions. It is clear
that there are an increasing number of examples
whereby a global sourcing approach has delivered
benefits to government departments within the UK.
The value of workforce flexibility and mobility
Businesses of all varieties consider international
labour mobility to be critically important for the UK
economy and creating growth. Clients demand a
blend of skills and experience that cannot always be
sourced from the UK’s existing workforce and global
solutions require access to the world’s best and
brightest people.
We welcomed the pledge from the Minister of
State for Immigration, Mark Harper MP, that the
Government will maintain a stable position on
immigration policy in this Parliament. Settled and
consistent immigration policy is vital for any
organisation seeking to invest in the UK.
A critical concern is the need for policy-makers to
accept the distinction between different kinds of
immigration. Economically active migrants are an
asset to the UK, providing tax, national insurance
and other revenues to the Treasury. Approximately
half of TCS’ workforce in the UK is made up of UK
nationals. On average, the remainder are resident in
the UK for less than a year, in which time they
implant specialist knowledge, purchase goods and
services and contribute to the UK economy.
Businesses and policy-makers must support global
talent by clearly distinguishing and valuing this type
of labour mobility.
4 www.reform.co.uk
The role of the Civil Service
The fundamental question which needs to be
confronted in every government department is how
do you define its core function? What are the
functions that only the Civil Service can fulfil and then
conversely, what functions lend themselves to
alternative forms of public service delivery?
Although these may be difficult questions for the
Civil Service to ask itself, once they have been
considered officials are in a position to assess a
range of delivery models – joint ventures, mutual or
cooperatives, outsourcing to the private sector or
engaging third sector organisations – to determine
which model will deliver the best outcome to
citizens. These questions of operational delivery and
capability should not be obscured by debates about
leadership and governance, which are important but
distinctly separate. It is clear that there are many
functions delivered by the Civil Service require
specialised knowledge and expertise that are not
available in the private sector. Equally there are many
areas of the Civil Service that could benefit from
alternative approaches and new delivery models.
Whatever the conclusion, it is clear from this series of
discussions that global delivery models and better
use of technology will be pivotal in the future.
At TCS we look forward to continuing to contribute to
this very important topic of transforming public services.
Reform-Tata Consultancy Services seminar series

Global solutions for

open public services

Tim Jones, Chief Executive of NEST, model works and I think the question organisation to do. And once you’ve got
highlighted how NEST has collaborated that increasingly people need to ask an understanding of that within a
with the Department for Work and themselves within the public sector is government department or an agency, I
Pensions (DWP) and Tata Consultancy where else could that kind of approach think the next step is to look at the
Services (TCS) to deliver the NEST be replicated?” balance of activities and ask which of
pensions scheme, a workplace pensions “I think it would be wrong of me to those could be provided more effectively,
programme. come here today and make the case for more cost effectively to a better quality
He stated that, “we did a make/buy outsourcing and global delivery of by another provider?
decision against our big problem which services given that I work for a company And then I think the final step
was the scheme administration of whose core business is outsourcing and on that piece of analysis is to say if it is
millions of accounts and hundreds of global delivery of those services. What I something that we choose to get another
thousands of employer – customer want to do is to at least open up the organisation to deliver, to what extent do
relationships and determined it was debate on this because with the Open they have assets around the world that we
stupid to make it. It was better to buy it.” Public Services White Paper I think it’s can leverage in order to increase the quality
Discussing the approach that NEST very clear that this Government has a and the cost effectiveness of that service?”
subsequently took to finding a bidder for view that the Civil Service, rightly or Simon Hill, Head of Corporate
the project, Tim said that, “we wanted wrongly, is perhaps overweight in places Affairs at Cerner, raised the issue of
somebody whose distance from their and could be made more efficient and complicated accountability questions
existing estate of capabilities to our more effective.” which stem from global public-private
requirements was as small as possible”, “Where it leads to in the public partnerships.
and that NEST were “completely global sector is probably a more difficult “When you get a public-private
in our outlook.” question about ‘what is the core business relationship that works well, it’s great.
Reflecting on the nature of the of a government department?’ What You don’t often really hear about it
collaboration, Tim stated that: “NEST is activities does it need to preserve as its because it’s not news. What you do hear
a pension scheme designed from the own, i.e. those activities that no other about is when it goes wrong. And what
ground floor up, which sits on an estate organisation can do or it’s right for any are the problems? And you’ll find that
of capabilities that TCS bring.”
Damien Venkatasamy, Director
Public Sector UK and Ireland for Tata
Consultancy Services (TCS), observed
that underpinning the scheme is “a kind
of global delivery model, in that much of
the front office or front of house pensions
administration is delivered from
Peterborough where we have an existing
facility, and we actually have a wholly
owned pensions subsidiary called
Diligenta which is based in Peterborough.
But a lot of the kind of back office
processing is done out of Mumbai by one
of our delivery centres there.”
Setting out the argument for a
global approach to public service
delivery, Damien explained: “the reason
we’ve done it that way is not just about
cost effectiveness. I think the reason
why NEST is interesting is that it is a
global approach to delivering these
services. Now you could say NEST is
about as close as you can get to a private
sector type endeavour… it just happens
to be under a Government non-
Simon Hill, Tim Jones and Damien Venkatasamy
departmental public body. But the

www.reform.co.uk 5
 Reform-Tata Consultancy Services seminar series
Savas Hadjipavlou
both sides tend to sort of blame each
other. And that’s true because actually
invariably when things go wrong there
is always blame on both sides.”
“One of the things that you will
often find the private sector saying is
‘who is the accountable person within
the public sector? Who has got the star
against their name that if it goes wrong?’
And invariably what you find is that the
star moves around from a number of
different people, that the star is in one
post for a couple of years and then moves
to a different post, and when that star
appears in front of a select committee
they’ll say ‘well actually when I inherited
it, it was like this. Now I have done some
work to make it like this, but I’m off in a
couple of months to do this’. And that is
very difficult. You don’t tend to hear the
same of the accountable officer on the
private sector side.”
Tom Frusher, Director of Public
Affairs and Communications at
McKesson, explained the role of
McKesson in the delivery of healthcare
in the UK. He stated: “We provide the
world’s largest integrated HR and
payroll system. We’ve been doing that
now for several years in partnership with
the NHS Department of Health. That’s
looking at 1.4 million employees. So we
see that there are real opportunities in
6 www.reform.co.uk
partnering with the Government. I think
in the context of this discussion I have to
stress we do that with no outsourcing or
overseas type stuff.”
“However, we’re very clearly
moving forward. McKesson being the
world’s largest health IT provider, the
oldest healthcare company in the United
States. There is expertise and
competencies over on the other side of
the Atlantic, and when we see those
being able to bring over some added
value to the UK Government and
European countries, we will leverage
that wherever possible.”
Jonty Olliff-Cooper, Director of
Strategy at A4E, discussed how the
concept of global delivery has impacted
on his own experiences of working in
frontline public services.
“I work for a company which
provides frontline public services, mostly
in getting people back into work but also
getting people off drugs and to stop them
reoffending and a variety of other things.
I guess there isn’t an equivalent global
role because you can’t do social work
overseas, for instance.”
But there are some wrinkles to that.
We welcome more and more providers
coming to the UK even if they’re rivals
from overseas. We’re starting to see
therefore a couple of players that are a
little bit more global on the front of house
stuff rather than just back office services.
So Maximus which is a US welfare
company, they’ve invaded and stolen
our contracts in Devon and Cornwall.”
Equally we work in Australia, for
instance. So there is a kind of knitting
together of some issues of global best
practice on this that’s happening
through a market mechanism.”
“It’s important to remember that
there is a considerable export industry in
the UK, a growing, booming industry in
public services, both in back office
services, front office and mixed ones.
And actually British companies are
leaders in this and are seen as global
leaders in this. And because British
policy is leading in this area you don’t
need to give a kind of subsidy to support
that industry.”
Neil Rutledge, Partner at Grant
Thornton UK LLP, argued that with
regards to outsourcing, “it feels to us that
bringing in new players to the market is
absolutely critical. It’s most likely that
your incumbent is not likely to be
incentivised to offer the full breadth of
what’s available, and therefore there is a
real role in the Government about
encouraging new entrants, and they have
to do a bit more than just slightly open
the door. They have to really say we are
going to let everybody be clear there will
be new entrants coming into that
market. And most competitors will
welcome that, I think, as you’ve
suggested, because it helps enhance
everybody’s capability.”
Richard Jeffrey, Managing
Director of AOM, commented that one
of the largest barriers to successful
outsourcing is the inherent confidence of
both sides.
“I think the Civil Service in
particular could do a lot to essentially
address the concern of ‘are we just giving
away profit to nasty third party private
sector organisations?’ Well if we’re fit
and able, then essentially we’re
demonstrating that we are confident
about what we do and we’re offering
good value to the taxpayer.”
“I think the barriers to those things
are the things – we’ve got to get into why
those options at the moment, the most
theoretically attractive, pragmatically
are not taken up.”
Simon Hill explained that: “we
need to have the necessary conditions in
place both legislatively and in terms of
Reform-Tata Consultancy Services seminar series
guidance because there is, I suppose, a
sort of fear factor that we don’t take it
forward because of the history of other
public-private sector partnerships which
haven’t worked out so well.”
Savas Hadjipavlou, Business
Director at the Probation Chiefs
Association, warned that: “I mean
what I’ve heard so far is largely about
the large scale, transactional based
work which kind of lends itself to each
individual component and it’s fairly
straightforward, can be automated and
so on. The other flip side to that is work
the public sector and the public services
are involved in which is complex,
individually based, largely driven by
location, locality. I think it does depend
to a large extent on which area of the
public service you’re looking at.”
“If we do look at something like the
justice sector or probation, there is a lot
of work and change going on. There is a
good deal of challenge. And things are
Erica Jobson and Kate Blatchford
changing. But I haven’t heard anybody
as yet put forward a proposition that you
do probation from Mumbai. It doesn’t
make any sense.”
Catherine Davies, Director of the
Cooperation and Competition Panel,
argued in favour of: “reducing barriers to
entry that enables people to come in and
stimulate competition, which is generally
a good thing”, while also noting the
political difficulties.
She said: “my impression is
that sometimes within the healthcare
sector we talk about competition,
privatisation, private sector. It all becomes
a very emotive issue and it’s difficult to
separate those things sometimes. I think
outsourcing and asking the private sector
to come in and provide services is
sometimes very difficult for people. The
idea of the global dimension is just yet
another difficulty on top of that. But
overall the concept of lowering barriers to
entry is a good thing in my view.”
Kate Blatchford, Analyst at the
Office of Fair Trading, referred back to
the issue of accountability surrounding
the concept of global delivery, stating: “I
wondered how much of an additional
dimension or problem it is potentially
when you’re looking at globalised public
markets and how you deal with the
accountability issues there. How are you
accountable when you are a global body,
and what sort of levers and mechanisms
can we think about in which that can be
made to work?”
Erica Jobson, Senior Analyst
at Which?, observed: “when you look
at quite a lot of the open public services
agenda, I feel that the Government
and businesses are moving quite fast,
and there is going to be quite a big lag
time for users to catch up with the
expectations. If you are having more
of a transactional relationship and there
are demands being put on you and you
are being asked to be a consumer, that’s
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 Reform-Tata Consultancy Services seminar series
fine as long as you have what you need
to be an engaged consumer, which is
information, advice, guidance, choice,
and redress. When something goes
wrong you need to have someone to
take you through the whole process,
and an understanding that you’re
making a choice.”
Damien Venkatasamy, returned
to the question of accountability in
global delivery in stating: “I think as a
global business we’ve been quite careful
to keep a relatively flat structure so that
accountability is very clear.”
“I would say on all of our
government contracts we’ve had issues of
varying size and complexity. And the
accountability for that initially resides
with the client partner that’s looking after
the public sector. We then operate a kind
of geographic structure. So there is a
Head of UK. That would be the next port
of escalation. And then beyond him it’s
directly into our CEO who runs the whole
company. So there are only really three
points of escalation that we operate.”
“The other aspect of it is we’re
quite careful to get into relationships,
whether it be in the public sector or
private sector, with people that we feel
we can work with. And ultimately I think
that’s how issues get resolved. There has
to be willingness on both sides that
you’re going to fix the problems and
you’re not going to kind of escalate them
in perpetuity.”
Richard Bacon MP, Member of
the Public Accounts Select
Committee, spoke on the issue of
transparency, noting: “on our
committee, which is the value for money
committee, we don’t look at the policy.
We look at the results of where things –
usually; not always – of where things
have gone wrong. And accountability is a
very big issue for us. When you were
talking a bit earlier about the person
with the star on his head or her head
whom you can follow around, that has
been a huge issue.”
“I have a telephone provider at
home in Norfolk that is constantly
winning the best value for money award
every year – at least they tell me they are
on their bill. But they’re never winning
the best customer service award. I know
the reason for this is that every time I call
them, which thankfully isn’t too often,
it’s always a 45-minute wait before I get
through to the person in Mumbai. And
I’ve often thought I would happily go to
8 www.reform.co.uk
another provider where I paid more
money and I got a service that I liked.”
“The difference is I do have that
choice. If I’m going along to the Job
Centre and I don’t get the service that I
want and they want to pay me by benefit,
I don’t have the option of saying ‘give me
my benefit or I’ll take my business
elsewhere’. It’s just not like that. So
you’re always talking at one remove.
You’re talking about an interlocutor of
some kind, an intermediary of some kind
trying to provide the service on behalf of
a government vendor to the public that
isn’t going to change where there’s a
natural monopoly.”
Tim Jones argued that: “ease,
transparency, and empowerment are the
three things that our customers asked
for. It had better be transparent so I can
see what you’re doing with my money.
And you better make it easy for me to get
as involved or as uninvolved as I want.
That’s what the empowerment means.”
“We are very transparent in that we
are clear about the overall size of the
contract. But I’ve got to balance that
transparency against member interests. I
have not disclosed what we’re paying our
providers. I think it’s in my members’
interests to keep confidential the
fantastic rates I’ve got from those fund
managers because I want them to get
fantastic rates for my members again.”
Matthew Burgess, General
Secretary of the Independent Schools
Council, noted: “In my sector, the
education sector, the distinction is
actually profit versus not-for-profit.
There is a great customer, consumer
political opposition to bringing in
for-profit providers into the education
sector. And what you’ve seen is global
market players. But they are doing it
through not-for-profit entities. And as yet
we have not got to the point where the
public it seems accepts that in education
people should be making profit.”
Reform-Tata Consultancy Services seminar series
A flexible workforce:
Improving skills mobility for economic growth
Mark Harper MP, Minister of State
for Immigration, began by laying
out the Government’s current stance
on immigration. He argued that
“controlling immigration is a very
important political issue. I think it is
worth saying because anybody who
thinks that by not talking about it, not
dealing with it and not controlling it you
can have it swept under the carpet I
think is kidding themselves. Indeed, it’s
much better that we have a firm but fair
immigration system because actually
then it’s dealt with by rational, sensible
debate by mainstream political parties
rather than allowing extremists and
people who would use these issues in an
unhelpful way to be able to lead and set
the agenda.” conclusion, very positive meetings with
Mark Harper MP and Keith Sharp
“The last two and a half years has
really been about getting policy in good
shape and moving to a system where we
had controls that would deliver a
reduction in net migration but also about
delivering more selectivity so we don’t
just have fewer people coming here but
we have the right people for benefiting
Britain and Britain’s economy.” things they want to do. But we are very
“I see, going forward, a position
where we have some policy stability, and I
want to really focus in my time in this job
on working with our colleagues in the UK
Border Agency and Border Force to
implement that policy to listen to where
businesses and universities have got
issues about how it works and make that
work better. I have had, just by way of
UUK, looking to them about how we
can work more closely together in a
collaborative framework where our job is
to help their members comply rather than
catch them out, and to deliver growth.”
“To some extent the Home Office is
a control department, so clearly we are,
by definition, trying to stop people doing
much signed up to delivering growth. I
want to make sure we deliver an ability
for businesses to bring in the right
people for Britain and to make sure that
we can do business and the education
sector can be successful.”
Keith Sharp, Vice President,
Tata Consultancy Services (TCS),
responded: “saying that policy changes
are largely done and we’re moving to a
stable implementation era is very
welcome news because one of the things
we’ve lived with over the last several
years is future anxiety- what’s waiting for
us around the corner?”
He went on to say: “International
labour mobility is absolutely key to how
we deliver value to UK PLC. We’re able
to bring in people on a temporary basis
to supplement the staff that we employ
in the UK.”
“I guess our concern going forward
is that although we see it as international
labour mobility, at the moment all
migration is dumped into the one
bucket, and we would welcome some
kind of distinction or separation between
the types of migration.”
“But what the Minister said earlier
will alleviate some of the future fear that
I was going to talk about, and we do
appreciate the way in which the
Government has approached its policy
towards intra-company transfers”.
Damien Venkatasamy, Director
Public Sector UK and Ireland for Tata
Consultancy Services (TCS), further
developed the case for international
labour mobility.
“We win these contracts because
we’re able to hit the timeframes. We’re
able to hit the timeframes because we
can take advantage of a global workforce.
So for us this is not really about taking
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 Reform-Tata Consultancy Services seminar series
Julia Onslow-Cole
jobs from UK citizens. This is about
growing our business which, in turn, is
enabling us to employ more UK citizens
by augmenting them with skills from
overseas that we can’t readily access in
this country.”
He continued: “When these people
are here in the UK they are renting flats.
Sometimes they bring their families
across and their partners take jobs.
They’re putting money into the local
economy, buying food and things like
that. We also find they bring thought
leadership, new ways of doing things,
methodologies that both our clients
benefit from and also our UK workforce
benefit from.”
Julia Onslow-Cole, Partner and
Head of Immigration at
PricewaterhouseCoopers (PwC),
argued for an exemption from the
cooling-off period for very high earners.
“A couple of weeks ago we had a
banking client that wanted to hire
someone in New York. This is a very
rare occurrence now: very big salary,
hundreds of thousands, and the bank in
the UK was competing against banks in
New York. And they could not bring him
into the UK because of the cooling off
period. We had to actually try and look
at alternative routes including the
investor route to try and bring him in
as an independent investor to get him
into the UK.”
“I think a very quick fix is if you took
people, say, earning over £250,000 a year
10 www.reform.co.uk
out of cooling off, I think that would
alleviate the problems for companies
looking at those very big hires.”
Adrian Bailey MP, Chair of the
Business, Innovation and Skills
Committee, raised the importance of
finding a political position to underpin
immigration policies reflecting the
economic needs of the country.
“I visit local foundries which I
know if they had not been able to recruit
migrant workers from east Europe would
have gone under, losing a considerable
number of jobs for the indigenous white
population as well. But unfortunately
that is not a message readily understood
by the public at large.”
Adrian emphasized the economic
need to win the political argument for
and subsequently implement a more
flexible visa system that will “enable
industry to tap into the best global
brains. There is increasing evidence that
we now have global market in talent
because clever people know that they can
go almost anywhere in the world and
deploy their skills to the benefit of that
host country, and we are missing out in
some of those areas. Secondly,
universities are a huge export earner
from foreign students – we’re missing
out on that. There has been a substantial
drop from India, one of our historic
markets, and we are underperforming in
terms of our relationship with Brazil.”
To deal with this, Adrian said,
“student visas should be taken out
of the net immigration figures. The
Government has got to find a way of
managing this politically because I think
there is now a huge volume of evidence
to demonstrate that our future economic
growth could be adversely impacted
unless we get this issue resolved.”
Mark Harper MP responded:
“Trying to pretend that students are not
migrants I think is fundamentally just
nonsense. If someone comes here to
work for two years, we count them.
There is no logical reason why you
wouldn’t count someone who comes
here for three or four years as a student.
They are a migrant. They meet the
international definition of a migrant.
They have an impact on the communities
they live in.”
He continued: “I want a system
where I can do exactly what Adrian wants
to do. So we need to go and make the case
for global talent, getting the brightest and
the best to come to the UK, allowing our
universities to get those students here. But
we’re not going to win those arguments if
people think we have a system that has no
controls. We’ll lose that debate, and that
will be bad for Britain.”
Steve Radley, Director of Policy
at EEF, observed that “despite the fact
we’ve had fairly weak economic growth,
companies are already reporting
significant skill shortages. The good
news is that they’re getting on with
investing in apprenticeships and in
retraining the workforce. But at the same
time they do need to bring in skilled
workers at some time.”
“We’ve just completed a
submission to the consultation from the
Migration Advisory Committee
proposing that sunset clauses are
introduced on the shortage occupation
lists after just a period of two years. But
the idea that after just two years we’ll
have had a lasting solution to this
problem and to introduce sunset clauses,
and then there being another year before
we can get them back on again, just does
not seem to be a sensible approach and
not a good example of the selectivity
we’re talking about.”
Ann McKechin MP, Member of
the Business, Innovation and Skills
Committee, agreed, stating: “I think
we do have to be careful about certain
niche areas where there are going to be
long-term shortages, and if we want to
make sure if we’re in a global competitive
market that we’re not losing our edge.”
Reform-Tata Consultancy Services seminar series
Making a plea for post-graduate
research, she noted: “I’ve got Glasgow
University in my constituency area.
We’ve got very large postgraduate
centres in medical research. Obviously
half of the people there who work
actually come from non-EU countries.
That is a unique part about the university
sector in the UK is actually we have a
very high number of people from all over
the globe, and we actually do gain from
that knowledge exchange, from that
ability. That is why our universities are
so attractive, and I think we just have
to make sure that we retain our edge in
that respect.”
Jo Attwooll, Policy Advisor at
Universities UK, explained that: “What
we’re looking for is Government support
for sustained growth in legitimate
student numbers within universities, not
least because of the future links that
those students, when they graduate,
offer to the UK. I think there was a BIS
study earlier on this year which showed
that something like 78 per cent of
graduating students wanted to build
links with UK organisations in future.
That is a huge number and there is
significant potential there.”
Ceri Smith, Director of Labour
Markets at the Department for
Business, Innovation and Skills, raised
the issue of future challenges for policy.
HE Thambynathan
“It seems to me the stuff that goes
on now will be setting the context for
that debate. And the debate at the
moment is very much in terms of net
migration and the target around that.”
“If the future policy debate
continues only to be around net
migration, then any government of
whatever complexion is going to find it
very difficult. My question is how does
any government respond to that going
forward, given opportunities like the
need to increase our educational exports.
You can only do that if there is actually
an acceptance out there in the public
that that is a good thing to do. How does
one build public confidence that the
borders are secure if actually somehow
you’re seen as changing the terms of
the debate?”
“It seems to me what one needs to
do between now and the next election is
start laying the grounds for a new
framework for debate – not necessarily
set out what that answer might be but
somehow change the terms of the debate
so it’s not suddenly seen as a shift and
somehow fudging the numbers. I don’t
see, as an official, how we could lay the
framework for that going forward. It
seems to me it’s not just about
Government. It’s also about businesses.”
Jean Candler, Interim Head
of Current Affairs at Million+, called
for a more positive narrative from
the Government.
“The ‘brightest and the best’ sends
a very negative message externally to
overseas countries as well as here. We
don’t use these terms because who is the
‘brightest and the best’? What we mean
is talented people. We want people who
are entrepreneurial and talented and
who can offer something. So narrative is
really important. If we want to move
forward we need to think about how we
express ourselves, what messages those
words are giving to other countries and
to this country.”
Mark Harper MP responded: “The
reason why we use the language about
the ‘brightest and the best’, about
selectivity, is we do want our universities
to be getting the best people to come
here. We’re talking about skilled workers
coming in. But we’re clear we don’t think
it’s of economic benefit to the United
Kingdom for lots and lots and lots of
unskilled workers coming here who
don’t really bring anything to the party.”
Richard Beamish, Interim Chief
Officer at the Alliance of Sector Skills
Councils, observed: “I think the issue
for us is over the public perception. It’s
over some of the more extreme political
views. People don’t think about net
migration. They don’t think about skills
and talent. They think about
immigration. And the challenge we have
is to get the message across to the public
as a whole so there is real support for the
concept of skills and knowledge transfer,
for movement of skills throughout the
world because that is what we’re talking
about as well.”
HE Thambynathan Jasudasen,
High Commissioner at the Embassy
of Singapore, observed: “in Singapore
we come from the perspective that the
countries that have the largest
concentration of talent will create
wealth, and countries that do not have
enough talent will decline. And the game
now is one of attracting the most number
of talented people. So I’m in competition
for talent. And all our countries are in
competition for talent.”
“I’m a major investor here, and I
think one of the issues we do have is
bringing people here, not so much that it’s
impossible to get them in, but just in terms
of the time taken. Businesses tend to
operate at a much faster pace. And when I
sit down and talk to them, their challenge is
always to get the processes done quickly.”
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 Reform-Tata Consultancy Services seminar series

Robert Arnott, Director of the UKBA targets are met and whether
Performance and Compliance Unit at there is a problem. So obviously the
the UK Border Agency (UKBA), noted London Metropolitan thing could have
that immigration controls were needed been maybe discovered sooner by talking
“to get the operation right, both because to admissions officers.”
that then drives the credibility of the Toomas Kull, from NASSCOM
system which allows us to make the UK, closed the discussion with a reference
political argument, but also because it to the importance of open debate and
drives good selectivity in the way in good relations between government,
which we do things.” universities and business: “We did make
“But we then need very well in some changes to the immigration rules
operational terms to have a that were laid before parliament a couple
differentiated approach to different of weeks ago. Clearly there will be tweaks
categories of people. And we clearly need where people give us particular examples
to up our game substantially for those that we need to deal with, and we are very
cohorts of people who want to come to open to looking at those. So it’s about
the UK legitimately.” having that dialogue really.”
He added: “On average 70,000 “Certainly those of you who
people pass through Heathrow Airport engage with officials will find that we
every day. Somewhere in the 70,000 are want to listen. We won’t always agree,
some people who probably shouldn’t be but I think we want to understand the
here or who are certainly worthy of a issues and balance them out and try
second look. So our operational and deliver that.”
challenge is to know as much as possible
about the 70,000 people before they get
here, try to prevent the bad ones ever
getting on a plane in the first place. We
have lots of international cooperation to
help us with that – to spot them as they
arrive, and make sure we have a way of
realising that we won’t always get things
right upstream.”
Mark Hilton, Programme
Director for Education and
Employment at London First, provided
a case study: “One of our big four
accountancy members employs
something like 12,000 people. About 10
per cent of those are non-EU. The
greatest proportion of that non-EU
workforce are Indians. And the
accountancy firm is concerned about the
dip in Indian student numbers coming
into the UK because they fish from that
global talent pool.”
“And the reason that pool is so
important to them is they employ them,
they train them up in London, they
develop the skills, and then they export
them out to support the work that they’re
doing to build trade in the Indo-UK
corridor. So it’s not necessarily about
employing people to stay here, but it’s
using people in that kind of global talent
flow way.”
Sophie Carter, Researcher at the
Office of Alan Shelbrooke MP, said:
“it’s really good to hear UKBA is
developing, but the people on the front
line as far as the universities go are the
admissions officers. They see how well

12 www.reform.co.uk
Reform-Tata Consultancy Services seminar series
The role of the Civil Service in
delivering open public services
Hon Bernard Jenkin MP, Chair of
the Public Administration Select
Committee, began by outlining the
underlying factors that had led to the
development of the Civil Service Reform
Plan, explaining that it was “a final
admission that the government needs
a plan in order to change the nature
of government. It needs a change
programme. But it’s a plan that is
both a product of frustration and a
determination to do things. The
frustration arises from the fact that
it’s very hard to get anything done in
Hon Bernard Jenkin MP
government apparently, and the solution
seems to be to start questioning the very
basis on which the Civil Service was
established as we know today by the
Northcote-Trevelyan Report of 1853 as
reinforced by the Haldane model of
accountability which has given us a Civil
Service that saw us through the 20th
century, world wars, economic crises.”
“We ask Ministers to go into this
extremely highly charged, difficult
environment and to assume
responsibility in government
departments for direct command over
people whom they don’t choose. And it’s
not surprising how those people are
chosen has moved up the agenda in the
Civil Service Reform Plan because in no
other walk of life is the Chief Executive of
a company, for example, required to
work with the people that he’s taken over
from his predecessors.”
“We’re dealing in a political
environment which has changed very
dramatically even from 20 years ago.
There is far more scrutiny of what goes on
in government departments. Ministers
and senior officials are trying to run
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 Reform-Tata Consultancy Services seminar series
government departments in a goldfish
bowl where they are being looked at by
24x7 media, the select committees,
freedom of information requests.”
“What we need to help Ministers
and officials do better is to understand
each other and share each other’s
concerns and information. What is
happening at the moment is that in too
many Ministers’ offices and government
departments there is mutual suspicion
between officials and ministers. They are
hoarding information from each other.
And if things aren’t getting done and
things aren’t going well, then people are
working in secret silos.”
Dr Chris Gibson-Smith
14 www.reform.co.uk
“The Prime Minister has become
a more superannuated presidential
figure with more staff. My favourite
statistic is that there are a thousand
more people working in the Cabinet
Office and Downing Street than there
were when Margaret Thatcher left office.
All sorts of things that are happening
outside of government departments, not
least the Prime Minister has his own
private policy. You hear people in
government departments saying: ‘gosh,
you know, everything goes fine until the
Treasury or Downing Street get involved
and then everything stops because there
is a bottleneck’.”
“If we’re going to address the
problems of structure, of trust, I think
we’ve also got to address the structure
of governments.”
Damien Venkatasamy, Director
Public Sector UK and Ireland for
Tata Consultancy Services (TCS),
drew a parallel between the challenges
currently facing the public sector and
the driving forces which drive private
sector service delivery.
“The first observation that I would
have is that in many respects when I look
at the situation of the public sector and
public service delivery, I see quite a strong
parallel in many respects to where the
private sector has been for a long time. So
obviously the autumn statement recently,
the budgetary cuts, and the year of
austerity lead you to a conclusion that
actually there is a need to reduce the
operational costs of delivering public
services. And then I guess counterintuitive
to that or contrary to that, there is also a
rising expectation from the electorate in
respect of the level of public service that
they want to be receiving. And that is
something that the private sector has
grappled with for a long time.”
Damien alluded to ways in which
the public sector could look to tackle this
problem in stating: “I think that leads
you to a conclusion that something does
have to change in terms of the way that
public services are delivered in the
future, and I guess there is no one
answer to that, and it depends on what
the function is. But I think there is a very
difficult question that every government
department, every government agency
and every local authority probably needs
to ask which is: ‘what is our core
function?’ By that I mean what are the
functions that only we, the Civil Service,
can fulfil, either because of a legal
requirement or because, frankly, there is
so much knowledge embedded in that
function that it would be ludicrous for
anyone else to even attempt to do it.”
“I want everybody to imagine a
spectrum which at the one end has
privatisation and then at the other has
civil service in-house delivery. And then
in between you’ve got outsourcing, joint
ventures, mutuals, co-operatives – all
kinds of different public service delivery
models. Once the difficult question has
been asked by a department of what their
core function is and therefore what things
are they perhaps not best placed to do,
that spectrum I think needs to be applied
Reform-Tata Consultancy Services seminar series
Stephen Kelly
to the things that they don’t consider to be
core, to say: well, what is the best delivery
model for this moving forward?”
He concluded by arguing that the
public sector should look to the private
sector’s embracing of technology to
enhance the quality of its service
provision: “what we see in the private
sector is people are very much milking the
back office, using technology to milk the
back office in order to feed the front office.
And I think that is something that the
Civil Service could very much consider.”
Jonty Olliff-Cooper, Director of
Strategy at A4E, observed: “I suppose
there are sort of two Ss which maybe
cover what we feel like we’re on the
receiving end of. I think one is about
bad structures, and the other is about
inadequate skills.”
“There is a real problem that
aspects of commerciality are often just
not there. So one department estimated
for us to do a programme we’d need £3
million to do that in working capital. We
actually needed £38 million. That’s quite
a big mis-estimate from them. And the
difficulty of raising that money can be
sometimes, for some types of
organisation, quite extreme, particularly
for charities and so on.”
Discussing the strengths of the
strategy: “I guess an additional S would
be strategy. Our biggest client is DWP and
I think that they have been really fantastic
in saying this is the direction, and giving
you a great deal of clarity. And it’s so
important when you’ve got to raise a lot of
money, because investors will attach a
massive premium to what you’re doing if
they think it’s all going to fall to pieces
shortly. The DfE have been similar.”
John Telling, Director of Group
Corporate Affairs at MITIE Group,
picked up again on the point of the
rotation of civil servants around
departments: “I’ve got a suspicion that
there are some within the public sector
who thought that at this stage through
the parliament that things would be a lot
better and therefore they didn’t really
hurry much to do reform. And my plea
really is to say we’ve still got two and a
half years left of this parliament and
there is an awful lot that can be done.”
“When the contractors at the
start of this government had to do a
memorandum of understanding, we
dealt with eight different teams in the
Cabinet Office in relation to that. Every
time it comes out, it’s a different team.
So that knowledge drain is enormous
all the time. Our view would be stick
with the teams you’ve got, make them
responsible for delivering the projects
they’re working on and seeing through
the results.”
John Owen, Director of
Strategic Markets for Serco UK and
Europe, was critical of the mutual
suspicion between public and private
sector providers.
“From Serco’s perspective I would
say the majority of our employees feel
more civil service than the civil servants.
They get up and they spend more of their
time delivering great frontline services
than the average people in the Civil Service.
And that’s why they like coming across.”
“I’m just shocked why we have
public sector/private sector as if one is
better than the other or vice versa. It’s
public services, and as a consumer I want
great public services at a low cost, digested
in a way I want to digest them, relevant for
me and my society. And I think the key for
me is it’s this partnership.”
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 Reform-Tata Consultancy Services seminar series
Mary Starks, Senior Director at
the Office of Fair Trading, highlighted
the significance of the diverse range of
skills that must underpin the multiple
roles government has to play in the
provision of services: “in particular one
of the things that has been a big focus for
us is procurement and commissioning
and how that set of skills is really
quite fundamentally different to
provision. We’ve had a focus on trying
to think about how procurement and
commissioning can work, not just so
that you get good value for the first
round, but such that in 10 or 15 or 20
years you’ve got a vibrant market with
a multiplicity of providers and not
defaulted to two or three big incumbents.
Those questions are quite difficult, and I
think it partly comes down to skills.”
Marcial Boo, Director of
Strategy, Communications and
Knowledge at the National Audit
Office, commented again about the
importance of ensuring continuity: “With
ministers changing, with senior civil
servants moving around departments as
has been outlined, there need to be
mechanisms by which both layers – the
political layer and the administrative
layer – can work effectively together, set
and monitor their driving through of
long-term change that’s not going to be
interrupted because of staff turnover or
political fighting.”
Dr Chris Gibson-Smith,
Chairman of the London Stock
Exchange, discussed the importance of
leadership and valuing the workforce:
“the competency of leadership cannot be
disrespected to the standard that it’s
currently disrespected. Society is more
complex than it has ever been in history.
There is no component of society which
is not now a lifetime study. If the Civil
Service is to do something it has to be of
Confucian standards of capability in the
face of that complexity, and it must be
stable, self-confident, and well paid, and
superbly educated. You cannot change
the Secretary of State for Transport 16
times in 18 years and imagine you’re
doing anything except take the mickey of
we the people.”
He also highlighted the importance
of better financial management: “the
second thing is we’ve got to get control of
budgeting. I would have a national
balance sheet that had integrity. And I
would have fiscal budget boundaries
with criminal sentences if you broke
16 www.reform.co.uk
them in order to make sure that we
understood that they had a purpose and
were for real. I’d be very selective with
external help. You don’t need a lot of it.
Make the people change themselves. And
it will take fantastic training and support
to get it to happen.”
Stephen Kelly, Chief Operating
Officer for Government at the Cabinet
Office, made the case for haste in
implementing the Civil Service Reform
Plan during the current window of
opportunity: “Let’s not boil the ocean
or have a kind of two-year sabbatical
Oxford Union debate about ‘is it the best
plan?’, but let’s just get on and do the 18
points within it. And it talks about
leadership. It talks about capability. It
talks about operational skills. And it
talks about pretty much all the right
things, and then at the end of this
Parliament I think it will give us, if we’re
sitting here with the Civil Service at
380,000 people rather than in 2010
480,000 people still collecting taxes, still
delivering benefits, still supporting the
citizens of this country, we’ll be on a
whole lot better plane to actually look at
the next phase of the journey.”
Greg Rosen, Consultant Director
at Reform, argued that “the Civil Service
Reform Plan does talk about many of the
right things, but that doesn’t necessarily
mean it will it achieve its goals. And I
think it’s really important that if
government is serious about achieving
its goals that it is open to the idea that
maybe the reform plan doesn’t go far
enough and is open minded in assessing
its progress towards those things.”
Hon Bernard Jenkin MP, gave the
closing view: “I think there’s a babies in
bathwater situation here that we’re in
danger of, that because the system isn’t
working properly we’re in danger of
throwing out some very good things about
our Civil Service which isn’t necessary
to throw out because if you get the
leadership right, everything will follow.”
£20.00 Reform T 020 7799 6699
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