Philosophical Definitions

Sambandha, Abhidheya and Prayojana The whole idea is basically sambandha, abhidheya and prayojana is the basic formula for everything. Everything can be defined in this. It is the main thing we will work with. There are other forms of it. But we will deal specifically with that. You are dealing with relationship, you are dealing with process, you are dealing with result. Means until you understand relationship means what are the element of the field, what relationship they have with each other, what relationship they have with the goal, what they have with the process, you wont actually be able to perform the process properly. The process is not performed properly you wont get the result you want. Just like they say the famous the end justifies the means. But anybody who has ever used that never got the ends they wanted. They use these bad means to get peace they never got it. It just never happened. Why? Because the process they used was to get a different goal, they dont know it, the two go together. Therefore a very clear understanding of this sambandha-jnana then makes everything work. As we see in the Upanisads out of five principles three are sambandha. Means God, the living entity, and the material energy and their relationship. So that is sambandha-jnana. Prabhupada mentions in the Gita, you know this, you have knowledge. Because everything comes from there. Because you know the living entity has to perform service, the living entity is trying to develop love of God, these are the other two points. But still you are dealing with theory. So technically it is sambandha. When you apply it then its abhidheya, when you get the result that is prayojana, even if you discuss abhidheya technically it is sambandha. It is a discussion on abhidheya, so it is an abhidheya-sastra. Nectar of Devotion is an abhidheyasastra, the knowledge of it is sambandha. That you are studying it that is abhidheya. That you practice it that is abhidheya. But that you study it that is sambandha. Then you know what is devotional service, you know who you are, whats devotional service, what is Vaisnavas, because you are discussing the process. If you are just discussing, Prabhupada mentions Brhad-bhagavatamrita is a sambandhasastra because Sanatana Goswami is the sambandha-acarya. His book discussing what is God, what is the Vaisnavas, what is the process etc. So based on that Rupa Goswami is taking from Sanatana Goswamis Hari-bhakti-vilasa and bringing that into the Nectar of Devotion. In other words, all the elements of sambandha are represented in abhidheya, but abhidheya is application of that sambandha. Then prayojana is the result, one is the result that you want to get, its the result that you do get. Because prayojana has to be visited twice. For the mind it has to go there first to decide that I am going to actually perform the activity and two, having performed the activity you will reach that spot. In other words, one is a feeling, the other is an actual observable result. But once that result has come then that because more part of sambandha. We will discuss that one when we get to that. So now different forms of this. So now this was relationship, process and result. Thats generally the terms that Prabhupada uses the most. Then other forms that he used is Thinking, feeling and willing. Relationship, process and result that is just applying according to the intelligence. That is the second of the two that we were talking about. In the logical presentation there is no obstacles therefore you going sambandha, abhidheya and prayojana. Thats a logical and intelligent way of presenting it. Then for the mind because the mind has to accept it we are dealing here with obstacles, obstacles means the mind, not intelligence. Intelligence just points things out, the mind accepts and rejects. Then you are going thinking, feeling, willing. Then you are going

sambandha, prayojana, abhidheya because unless the mind accepts the goal it wont agree to act because it is in control of the senses. Means by intelligence the senses function, in this way then the intelligence is the lord of the senses because without intelligence a sense doesnt work. But what work the intelligence is going to do is given by the mind. By intelligence the sense can work because you can tell the difference between a pillar and that is the floor, that is intelligence. But why I am doing that or what I am doing with that knowledge that is a pillar so that I can lean against it that is the mind. Therefore these two methods are important to understand because these are the two processes. Therefore these are the basis for your two forms of logic, it is the same thing, sambandha, abhidheya and prayojana. Its just you make some adjustment because you are adding the mind to it. In other words, one you are dealing just with intelligence and the other you are dealing with the intelligence and the mind. In other words, if the mind has accepted it you can do it in one way, if the mind hasnt accepted then you have to get the mind to accept it so it is slightly different. It still is the same, because we say thinking, feeling, willing, so that you are going to go sambandha, prayojana, abhidheya. But by performing the abhidheya whats going to happen? You are going to get to prayojana. Basically it is the same thing it is just a matter of convincing the mind. Thats why you touch on the prayojana then it comes. Its like in music you touch the higher note and you come to the main note. You dont hear him just say the note. Its always aaaaa. You are saying this note, the higher note is not the note. Like when these classical musicians start and you hear them singing they only sing one note you think they are singing so many notes but they are showing how to approach that note. Thats all they are doing. It is one note and then they move to the next note and everything is around that note, and then the next note, so it is always where it ends up then you know thats where it is. So it is sambandha, then it touches on prayojana, it comes to abhidheya, then you get prayojana. But it is just for the mind you have to throw that in, the goal. So therefore thinking, feeling, willing. Because if someone is doing something that means they have accepted it. If they are not doing it that means they havent accepted it. If the person doesnt know how to do it means he hasnt got knowledge. I dont how to do this that means he doesnt have sambandha-jnana. I dont want to do this means he doesnt have the prayojana. Or he is doing it but he is doing it wrong means he also doesnt have sambandha. Or he doesnt know where he is going with it. So by this you can identify whats going on, whats wrong, whats right. In other words, from all this you are going to understand how the mind and intelligence work, you will be able to understand things for yourself and from that you will be able to use that for others. So it is a vision, it is a way of seeing. You are not going to memorizing verses or this or that. The important verses will be important because they constantly come up but it is not a matter of you can cough up 50 verses with all the word for word and then you pass. Because if I come back two weeks after the test I guarantee if I sat right down all those 50 verses there is a good chance you wouldnt be able to do it. If I came back after one year you wouldnt be able to find them at all unless you are using them already in your preaching. So that kind of knowledge we are not looking for. We are looking for this is the basis of how you are going to use it today in your life and for the rest of your life. So it is a different approach to knowledge. This is the Vedic method. Other methods are based on generally modern academic methods which is to get the knowledge across. But as we see knowledge is one of, it is sambandha, then you have abhidheya and prayojana. So if you dont apply it in your life whats the meaning of your knowledge? If you dont know why you should apply it you wont apply it. So the people dont apply it because they dont know that they should or why they should.

Sat, cit and ananda. You have eternity, knowledge and bliss. So eternity that is the basis, everything is based on that. Krsna is eternity. He is everything. Everything else expands from Him. So He is the full form of sat. Cit means then your knowledge and your activities. And ananda is the result and happiness youll get from having performed an activity. So then sac-cid-ananda. So then in that you also get cit-acit-isvara. Depending on how you want to put this together. Cit is your knowledge potency means what it is how to perform the activities then your isvara and acit depending upon how you put it then they can switch places, the Lord is the basis of everything in this but the goal of the living entity is acit, in other words ignorance. So then the living entity foolishly is involved in the material energy for gaining material gains so he is using this knowledge that he gains in the material world to get material gains. So you can put it this way. The other way you can also put it is your acit means your ignorance because that is your basis of material existence and isvara will be your goal that you are trying to obtain to, through cit youll get yourself from acit to service at the lotus feet of isvara. The Mayavadis make a mistake and think they are isvara. So that is a problem. Ignorance, passion and goodness. When you take sac-cid-ananda and expand it then your sat is your eternal position. That is your basis, the transcendental platform. In the material world ignorance is the basis because you are ignorant of your relationship with Godhead therefore you are in the material world. Then passion is going to be your activity. And passion is always in the future because you want something. So that means it has that touch on the goal. So we see that element is there. Your passion will be your activities. Then goodness will be your goal what you are trying to obtain to. But the passion unless it is touched upon that it cant act. This is knowledge and understanding, if you want to apply it then they become switched. Because then goodness is what you have to act on now, it is in the present. If you are dealing with time passion is in the future. Therefore your activities in the present have to be based on goodness if it is being performed with knowledge, with detachment, with devotion, it gets the proper result. Because what is Krsna saying, when He gives conclusion to Arjuna He is not saying, know this Bhagavad-gita very nicely or everything like that. He is saying perform your duties which means activity with knowledge. So activity is done with knowledge so that makes it cit. With detachment then the quality of it goes up. Its not passion. It has to be goodness. To perform your duties that means it is based on sastra, its austerity, so goodness. With knowledge, without attachment. Then you are being performing that thinking of Krsna and for Krsna. So the goal is for Krsna. Unless it is detached how will it be for Krsna? So Krsna is talking about the present. What you are going to do right now. Because the discussion is what is Arjuna going to do right now. It is not what he is going to do later. He is on the chariot and it is time to fight so the question is what is Arjuna going to do now? So the whole idea is it is all in the present. So therefore mode of goodness comes here. Passion is in the future what you would like. Ignorance is in the past. Thats why persons overwhelmed by passion and ignorance they are never in the present. So therefore they never get good results. They never get anything lasting because only the mode of goodness lasts. Passion or ignorance are fleeting. Or ignorance lasts but it doesnt get anything done. We also see this principle that sometimes we can take two things and depending upon their perspective we can move it. Like we have already done that in one thing is that the first thing we did we didnt bring it out we bring it out now is this knowledge. We are taking knowledge and putting it in sambandha because that is its natural place. But at the same time

action is done with knowledge. In other words, learning the knowledge is sambandha, applying the knowledge is abhidheya. Thats why when we were doing elements before in the process is the application but you are using knowledge. When we are dealing with knowledge which is intelligence, the intelligence can be put into the abhidheya category. But other times it will be put into the sambandha. So they can move. So all these different forms are there of sambandha, abhidheya and prayojana but they have different applications, at different times they will do different things. So we just have to be aware of that which one we are using then we wont be confused. Then we Madana-mohana, Govinda and Gopinatha. Madana-mohana is attraction. Govinda is application. Gopinatha is your goal or your love. So Madana-mohana is the one that attracts us to Himself. He is the most all-attractive one, thats your sambandha, your relationship, only if you are attracted then there is a relationship. You are not attracted no relationship. Then Govinda, without the instructions there is no application. Govinda is the pastimes, that is the activities. Gopinatha is that goal, developing love for Him. So there is attraction there is attachment. These are experiences. But the pastime is an activity. The gopis are attracted to Krsna, they are attached to Krsna but nothing is happening. They are feelings. The pastime is action. At the same time you get all the feelings because the knowledge is being used, the action is going on, and that result is coming. So in abhidheya you get the experience of all three. But It is only through action that it is full. If someone only does one or the other it is not full. Someone may be thinking about something but unless one is actually doing it it is not going to be happening. We are devotees of Govindaji because Rupa Goswami is the acarya of abhidheya his Deity is Govindaji. Sanatana Goswami is the acarya of sambandha his Deity is Madanamohana. Gopinatha is generic for all Gaudiya Vaisnavas where you take it from there there may be a difference. Therefore there may be a difference in who you take as your acarya. In general we will take it is Gopinatha his devotee is Madhu Pandit, for us our prayojana-acarya is Raghunatha dasa. (end of lecture) Devotee (3): About relationship Maharaja: Whatever a woman wants but according to the nature of a woman. Because shell say something and she means something else. Like she says you annoy me, get out of here. That doesnt necessarily mean that you have to leave. It means that whatever you are doing and annoying her has to stop. Because the point is its crooked. So they will be saying this, they mean this. But it can turn into that. Because whatever it is you have come these steps towards, so whatever is the last step you made that was wrong. So that you have to move back to the last one, you dont do that right, shell keep moving back until you are out the door. So its a matter of dealing with the point not, because they have requirements, that has to be fulfilled. You have to know what they are to fulfill them. And then you have to be able to apply time, place and circumstance to what is the necessity of the time and whats the actual individual nature. Because each individual will be slightly, the detail will be slightly different. The principles will always be the same. Devotee (3): So its not that they are not, satisfy and they wont take advantage. Maharaja: The point is them taking advantage is part of the whole thing is that they have to know that they cant take advantage. If they can do that then they stop taking advantage. The point is you just say you can do whatever you want but then theyll try it. They have to be proven that they can do it whenever they want. And if you can handle that then they are

comfortable, then they move back into something normal. But theyll always push it beyond just to make sure whats there. Its just when you test the eyes you test here, its not just. You put some heavier on it. So if it passes that. Its like the king, he wants to check and see if the chandelier will fit because he ordered a chandelier bigger than the one in Buckingham Palace, but they said thats very heavy, will the roof hold it. Ok lets check, he brought an elephant, and then the elephant up, and if the elephant didnt bring the roof down then haribol, the chandelier is going to fit. So thats always the thing. Thats just the way they are. The point is just because they take advantage, the point is they have to do these things, the man volunteers to be involved in this. Thats his independence. The woman has to behave like this. She cant behave any other way. So many times the men think if I am taken advantage of then thats this. But the point is its being taken advantage of with relationship or without? If its without relationship that you want to avoid. But if its within a relationship then thats just the way it is. Thats what makes the relationship more mature, more deep, more intimate. In other words, the key to what you are looking for is through these things, it is seemingly not what men want. But the point is everything is obtained through austerity. So the things the men would consider austerity are the actual means of obtaining what they are looking for in association with women. They want it without. But that doesnt work. Its just you dont win the Olympics by sitting in the couch and eating chips. You have to do the austerity, then youll get the. Devotee (3): Its across the border, it applies for spiritual life. Maharaja: Its the exact same thing. In other words, its equal opportunity. Means the sadhu he goes through so much difficulty, so he mentally has no difficulty as long as he is in the right state of mind. Physically there may be difficulty. The grhastha, because the physical difficulty therefore he uses that to develop the right state of mind. For the grhastha the physical difficulty isnt there its emotional difficulty but he uses that to develop the same state of mind. But its easier to deal with the adhy-atmika or adhi-daivika, it is more difficult to deal with the adhi-bhautika. But thats the point is the grhastha has chosen the inferior path, thats why its considered second-class. Because you can get the same thing through simply the means of self-realization. But here the grhastha through that inspiration that is there by the association with a woman he is doing exactly the same thing as the brahmacari, vanaprastha, sannyasa. Its exactly the same thing. But its just the medium through which it comes is different, but what he has to learn and what he cant get from are exactly the same. Therefore the brahmacari can become self-realized, the grhastha can become self-realized if they understand the process. If they dont understand the process then they wont. But its the same. The grhasthas the whole thinking its the whole the man woman thing, no its uou dealing with, all there is you, God, and His energy, and its Gods energy, it works according to Gods laws, therefore means you can attain God by dealing with His energy according to His laws. So in the spiritual world you serve His internal potency according to His rules then you develop love of Krsna. In the same way if you deal with the energies here in the material world according to His laws with the right attitude then you develop your relationship with Him. But from this you develop this on the platform of Brahman, you liberate yourself. The interaction with your wife doesnt develop prema for Krsna, it develops your relationship with Krsna on the Brahman-platform, that

He is Brahman you are Brahman and you are out of the material world. Then as Brahman serving Brahman then you can take up the Bhagavan aspect, means your sadhana is Bhagavan, your discussions on Krsna consciousness, your services that, but the principle of male-female, husband-wife, you are dealing with Brahman there, because its the universal formsince it is all the universal form, the masculine aspect flowing to the feminine and back, like this, thats whats going on. So then technically you can liberate yourself through that. So thats why the science needs to be known. But some think by knowing the science then ignorance is bliss, so you lose out on it. No, this is actually how you get it. The ignorant man is not blissful. He may think he is. A woman in ignorance may be blissful, thats ok. But the man cant be. The man has to be in knowledge. Thats why it says spiritual husband, religious wife. So that means if he is not looking at it from the spiritual point of view, he wont be a good husband. Only a spiritualist will be a good husband. Even only an advanced spiritualist will be a good husband. Means others you see they are doing a nice job, the family is together, they will never divorce, they have kids, everything is really wonderful. But there is elements of the feminine nature that they are not taking care of, so the women still wont be satisfied. Therefore the women always have this poker face look on their face. But it is as good as it gets other than that. But you take a step further, they have the spiritual understanding and practice. You never hear of one complaint from Devahuti. Nothing. Because he is like the perfect husband. Devotee (3): Also you made a comment about when the man has knowledge and doesnt apply, then its supposed to be in relationship with the husband applied, why are you the couch potato, so he doesnt do anything, he provides a house, he provides everything else, but he doesnt provide the interaction. So that has to be done. That doesnt seem to get done in general. Maharaja: It has to be done constantly, its not that you can do it and sit back. The man is used to I do this activity, I got the result, I can sit back. Because as soon as something comes into prayojana it moves back into sambandha. So that can be used to advantage means as soon as it comes back, then your field is bigger then you move forward more. Its just like money, you have money, it goes out. You sell something , the money comes back. Now you have more. I sent out a hundred dollars, I bought goods, its out. I sold the goods, now what comes back is two hundred dollars. It always comes back, then I put out again. So thats the whole thing it always comes back. So the man the point is he thinks its come back because the situation is in sambandha he thinks now its fine, enjoyment. But the enjoyment it is on the other side, you want to get to the enjoyment you have to do action again. So its constantly you are always acting, always having that knowledge. So therefore then that enjoyment is there. So theyll think that theyll just do. While women they are enjoyment, so therefore you always have to be active. Then to get to them you always have to be active. Thats there the passive point, you have to be the active one. And as you are active then they can act. Devotee (3): In the same way Krsna is always acting, always engaged in lila by His activities, He is always doing instigating. Maharaja: At the same time is He engages in the activity according to the nature of the other person. As you surrender He reciprocates. So whatever mood the women is in thats the way you are going to behave. You are always making the step but you make that step according to her mood. Thats what we mean by always taking the woman into consideration. But taking that step that is the masculine thing. But thats whats not understood. Therefore they think if I do it according to woman therefore I am not masculine. No, but doing according to yourself thats feminine.

Devotee (3): The opposite. Maharaja: Yes, thats why there is a problem, because then the packing order has to be done. So as far as laws goes the husband is superior to the wife, he is the boss. But as far as the relationship and all that, the wife is comfortable when she controls it. So then there is always going to be a fight in the packing order. Because the woman needs rasa, so she needs to feel that she is in control. Otherwise if she is not in control, she doesnt feel that the relationship is solid. Because if you cant control it how shell get any enjoyment out of it. But the man is controlling because its his environment, that the woman is controlling him in. She is not controlling him in another environment, its his environment. Even she wants to go to the Bahamas, still he arranged to go the Bahamas, its his environment. Then she controls, oh lets go to dinner, oh lets go to dance, oh lets go to the beach. But she is controlling within his environment. So thats the whole thing. So if he is thinking, oh my arranging everything for her I am controlled by her but that he arranged it that makes it his environment. It puts him in control. Thats where his control is. And what will be done with it thats her control. Just like you are driving the car and the other person is saying lets go here lets go there. But you say no I want to go where I want to go but that means then its double. So both spots have been taken by you. So where is the relationship? I am the driver and I say where I go. So you want to do that be in the car alone. Then you can do that but then you are alone. You want to have someone else in the car then you go where they want to go. (end) September 19, 2008 Maharaja: Name, form, qualities and pastimes. The name establishes the form, creates the attraction. Then the qualities one becomes attached to because of this one will engage in pastimes. That will bring about your sambandha, prayojana and abhidheya. Or you take turn it where the name and form is sambandha, and the qualities are the abhidheya because it is through that that you will perform activities and then the activities themselves are your goal that you are trying to get or thats where the love of God will be experienced. In other words, you are performing the devotional activity but the experience of it the love of it that will be your prayojana. Principles of Godhead from the position of 1, 2, 3, or 4. If this is understood this one can move back and forth between them because that can be very important, very useful, is that 1 means we are seeing Krsna as atma-rama, as the original Supreme Personality of Godhead, who encompasses everything, everything is within Him. Nothing is manifest, the creation is not manifest, it is just one. Krsna dasa Kavairaj Goswami mentions this, he says in the beginning Krsna is one and then He expands as 2 - as Radha and Krsna, that means Krsna and His energy, the full form of that the svarupa-sakti will be Radharani then you have the masculine and feminine principle. For them to interact you have the 3: You have the masculine, the feminine and their interaction. Krsna is 1, thats all things, but basically you are dealing with sambandha, existence. With Radharani you have the energies, then there is something to obtain and experience prayojana. There must be a method by which these two can combine thats the abhidheya. So then you get the three: sambandha, abhidheya and prayojana. 4 means you have to split for understanding the difference in sambandha between the first part and the second part. Because this will always come up. This comes up in the philosophy, in Vedanta-sutra, it comes up here in rasa. Both in tattva and in rasa it is necessary to split.

Because one is your purposes, your reasons behind something, your attractions the other is the field itself, the nature of something itself. So then in this for understanding here we use this Sankarsana, Pradyumna, Aniruddha and Vasudeva. That is one form of the four. That would be your major form of the four. Then in this you get Krsnas different personalities: he has four different main moods that He manifests. The dhirodatta, the dhira-lalita, the dhiraprasanta, and dhiroddhata. In these moods, in Sankarsana that would be similar to the atmarama aspect. This atma-rama element, then is there Sankarsana establishes the rules, what is the proper relationship with everything, what is the field of activities, all this will be established there, this is important for creating the field. But in rasa it moves to the next stage where you have Pradyumna, where there is an interest in the field. The name establishes that it is Krsna but the form gives attractiveness, the form is whats attractive, beauty is the attractive it is the main opulence, when that is there everything else happens. So then therefore because of Madana-mohana it moves into the next: activities. Pradyumna will be that attraction, still sambandha, but that attraction to work within the field, the interest to work within the field. Aniruddha is the mind, that will be Gopinatha, prayojana, what you want to obtain. Because the mind has to obtain something first, then there is Vasudeva, in the pastimes. We have gotten into attraction, interest and desire. Means we have attraction is something, so then therefore we will take that interest, that interest or need will become strong, then the desire we want to do. Here we are using the desire meaning it is the active principle. We are not using desire meaning something we want. Many words can be used in many ways. So here we are using it to bring out, means you are going to have an attraction for the field. Then there is going to be the interest in it, thats whats going to be important for you, then you are going to have that desire to act in that, so it is the same as thinking, feeling and willing. The field, the nature, the rules that is your Sankarsana. Your attraction, interest, desire these could all be the same different aspects of Pradyumna. Means you have attraction to the field, or desire to be involved in that, an interest in that. In other words, there is something alive there. We have discussed the 3, the 1, now well discuss the 2. On Monday we discuss in more detail the 4. In the 2 we have Krsna and His Creation. The masculine and the feminine principles. The proper mentality is I am the servant of Krsna. Having love expressing my love for Krsna is the goal of life. I am the servant, Krsna is the enjoyer. I am the controlled and enjoyed by Krsna. That is the natural state. Otherwise we get into I am the controller and I am the enjoyer. So all these we are dealing with sambandha and prayojana. The 2 means sambandha and prayojana. The action will be based on that mentality. Whatever is your mentality thats what it will become. If your mentality is that of I am servant of Krsna I want to please Krsna then the abhidheya is going to be service to Krsna. If I am the controller and enjoyer then the abhidheya is going to be something mundane for your own benefit. So there is a lot of these terms based on these two. Controller and enjoyer is there. I and mine. I is your identity and mine is what you are attached to. Depending on how you see yourself then that is what you are identifying as yours. You change how you see yourself you change how you deal with whats yours or what you consider yours. Also in the inverse: If something is

yours that means you have to be the support of it. You cant have something as yours and then not take care of it. Otherwise you cant say I. It is mine but then whats the point of whats I. Because mine is always based on I. The feminine is always dependent on the masculine. You say this is my house then you have to be one that is taking care of it. Otherwise how can it be your house? Otherwise how is its identity going to be there? We like to see that way but not the other way, the inverse but they go both ways. If you want to be the enjoyer then you have to be the controller. You cant just sit back and think that I am going to enjoy. No, you have to be controlling the situation then only can you enjoy. We expect the other person to control the situation and to create my enjoyment but that is not going to work. Attachment and fear. Fear means because we are fearful of our actual identity. We are fearful that I am servant of God. We are fearful that I am not this body. Therefore then there is a problem. And then that other side then manifests as attachment. Means if there is control there is enjoyment, if there is fear there is attachment. Thats why the impersonalists then they focus so much on attachment because they are fearful. They fearful that God is God and I am His servant. That is not exactly of how they like it to go down. If you are attached then you are going to be fearful. If you are attached to something then something might happen to it because that is your connection then you become fearful, because the fear is in the sambandha-category. So your position is there because of that. So thats why if there is attachment then there is fear. When you say the devotee is fearless means that he is not attached. They go together. You cant be fearless if you are attached. These are the same principles but different views then give us entrance into so many aspects of the human psyche, human activity. Gain and safety. That is also the same. Safety is your sambandha and gain is your prayojana. I have something then it must be safe. If we have attachment then there is fear. If we have gain then there will be the anxiety that comes with it and therefore we want safety. Here is also the point that the masculine will look at prayojana, the feminine the feminine will look at the sambandha. The masculine is looking for gain and the feminine is looking for safety. Men get upset when they dont gain what they want and women get upset when their security is lost. Means you make some comment, humiliate the man, then he may just feel humiliated but hell think Ill get back this way that way, he maintains his identity. He doesnt necessarily become angry. But the woman will. Therefore if a woman gets upset then something in her security has been reduced. So if you know what you did wrong look at what you said or did how that is connected to here security. Otherwise it doesnt make any sense, it makes perfect sense. You dont know where to look. Because you are looking at gain. No, you should be looking at safety. Man has safety - woman has gain. Their field is gain and the mens field is safety. Just as the man can go on and on creating a safe environment, the woman can go on and on gaining things. The man wants to protect it the woman wants to buy it. Man is thinking how can she shop all day, and she is thinking how can he sit around and take care of the house all day Security and facility. Facility means security. Security means having something that can be used as a medium for the relationship. So the house is facility but the house means you are secure in now the activities that you want to do in the house you can do they are secure, you have the house. And experience is what you are going to get from that facility or that security.

Desire and attraction. These are different aspects of sambandha. Need and goal. They are same thing. Means your need and goal that would be the same thing. If you are thinking I want to get this, it is a need. Happiness in the material world is removing a pain. The pain is the need for something. When you get it you remove the pain of that need and then you call yourself happy. Devotee (1): All the principles can be connected to always remember Krsna and never forget Krsna Maharaja: Yes. Means you always remember you never forget, then your action will be correct. If you mention 1, He always means He has His creation. God means His creation and everything. We dont think of Him separately. If God were in His position as 1 now we wouldnt be here thinking about it. Therefore God means His creation. That person who is 1 expands so that He is 2. Because of that He will interact because He has expanded for rasa for increasing the taste of happiness, therefore He interacts. When you say 2, 2 means that there will be interaction. Therefore always remember Krsna and never forget Him. Never forget means is your sambandha, you dont forget your relationship and you dont forget the position, always remember means that you are absorbed in Krsna, so one develops that love for Krsna. If these are in place then one will act in Krsna consciousness. If you forget Krsna then you are not going to act in Krsna consciousness. You remember Him you will. So it goes together. If you forget Him then you are not going to be interested to remember, then your actions will not be proper. Devotee (2): Attraction, interest and desire they can all brought back down to Pradyumna? Maharaja: Yes, just like the field, nature, rules, that is Sankarsana. Desire and attraction we already mentioned that. Need and goal, that would be your prayojana. So can say field, nature, rules, what would be Sankarsana of sambandha. Attraction, interest, desire, that would be praduymna of sambandha. Need, goal, experience, what would be. So the idea is all those ones I, fear, control, safety, security, facility, desire, this is all one thing. In the same way is mine, attachment, the enjoyer, gain, experience, need, goal, that is all your prayojana. By studying from different angles, this is vicara then you get a more clear picture. Otherwise you see it in one way and that makes sense but then there is so many other aspects of our life we dont apply it to. So there is all these different ways just so that we will broaden our application of always remembering Krsna and never forget. Next area: stages of education. Pranipata, pariprasna, sevaya. If there is service there will be interest, if there is interest you will inquire submissively. Someone who inquires submissively means he wants the knowledge. Someone who doesnt inquire submissively means he has a doubt. It is a challenge he doesnt want to know. He sees something with what you are saying. So it is not that he wants to know what you are saying he just sees a fault. If there is proper interest to learn then he will try to have the knowledge and will then practice it. Pranipata or the submissive inquiry means he will contemplate and apply it as seva. That will then again generate the interest to know. Then the cycle of knowledge will continue. By this process then when one has a desire to know and one is applying this knowledge practically with time that will develop practices, realization, proper good values and qualities, thats how they are going to come. Good qualities, virtues and realizations come from consistent practice with proper understanding.

Thats why at the core of the system of knowledge is its practice. Otherwise if you just learn so much knowledge after a while it wont be good for you. You see so many times, professional students all they do is study, they never apply it, very nice people, gentle people but they dont do anything. The point is this knowledge must be applied that will give you realization. Devotee (3): So when we study chronologically then analytically increases the absorption in the matter of the prayojana? Maharaja: That would be your interest and the submissive inquiry. Why dont we leave your question for the next aspect, that will make it more clear because this is taking on the point is that an interest to know and having the character that you can inquire submissively comes from service. That is the main point of these three approach. Only by applying that knowledge, meaning by performing service then you will know. Therefore in the gurukulasystem so much time is spent dong service. The more service that is done the more one can inquire the more one has interest. This idea by many parents or educators the gurukula system is wasting the students time by doing menial service when they could be doing more academics is fallacious. Because it is a known fact in your common general schools, kids have no interest. Private schools maybe, but your private schools none. Why? Because they do nothing. And if you have private schools that do then thats because they do something at home. They still do not much at the school. They might do more, they might manage a school, do different things, there is an identity with the school. How many kids identify I went to high school 57. There is not much identity. But if you go to the private schoolsschools that are not by the government there is more identity with it, there is more service involved in it so therefore there is a little bit more. But that reflect the people that already came with that mentality. It didnt generate it, it may be able to maintain it to some degree but it is not generating it. The idea is that gurukula should generate the interest. So therefore seva has to be done. You can tell how good a student is by watching him doing his service, how he washes the pots, clean with a broom, interaction with others you can tell this is a good student or a bad student. Previously I dont know if well do it here but when we were running the same Bhaktisastri course back in the 80s, means you had all your essays and did all that. So you got graded on that. But the final mark was very interesting. There was a huge big box and all the students were invited over to this box by the teacher. The box was opened and the students all look inside wondering whats inside. When they look inside they find brooms. Then the teacher gave them each an area in the school to sweep and then watching how they swept and the quality of what they called the work is done they got a mark. If it doesnt come to sevaya then you didnt learn anything. This is how the final grades of the previous Bhaktisastri was run. It is very easy you can sit down and watch how someone handles a broom and can tell everything about him: their whole mentality, attitude, how well they can study, their attitude towards others. Everything you can tell by that one thing. Service is very important. Now we revealed this so no one should think that they are getting away and nobody knows what you are like. Its just how much you clean up, how much dust you leave on the floor because the dustpan is a little curved so it doesnt hit the floor so that is as good as it gets. I watched somebody spend a lot of trouble pushing down on the thing today to make sure it all and then what dust was left make sure to pick it up and get it off the floor and get it out of there what couldnt go in the pan. At the same time I watched those that just plank it down and then go like this and one sweep whatever goes inside and the walk off and leave this much stuff on the floor and say what can you do. Like that exactly those students are good in their

academics or not, good with others, have a devotional attitude, good sadhana. Its direct, its not indirect. From lack of understanding or knowing the science I would even say lack of faith then people will recommend that kids do more academics and less service and then when they grow adults do service, they do practical work. They spend their whole life never doing anything practical then suddenly you have to, most people dont like to so they try to find some short-cut. And that is reality. 3 stages of learning. This is Brhad-aranyaka Upanisad. Sravana, manana and nidhidhyasana. Sravana means hearing knowledge from the teacher, you are going to get this knowledge, so that is based on authority. The main source of knowledge is authority. Then one is going to apply that knowledge that means one has to bring it down to the observable level. It is descending, it starts with authority and comes down to pratyaksa. Ascending means you start with pratyaksa, or the senses and try to take it to authority, it wont make it. Because when you get to authority then the impersonalists find out they are the authority, I am God. So it is not a very good system. Manana. You get an intellectual understanding through practice and reflection. There is vicara, you get an understanding and then you see it from different angles and then you practice it. Then by practicing it you get more of an understanding and see it from another angle. Like you sit there and watch someone cook. For them the cooking is easy they are expert at it. Watching is also very easy. You look at it it looks easy, yeah you just put the ghee in the thing and then throw in a few spices and all that, then throw in a few vegetables and push it around and it cooks for a while and then haribol. I can do that. No big deal. Then when you have to do it then somehow or another I different perception arises. How much ghee do you put, how hot is the ghee, how much spice, how long do you leave it in the ghee, when do you throw in these other vegetables, how much do you push them around? Thats why practice is important because then you perception starts to broaden. Because before you just saw you just put a few things in and done. But then as you have to do it then you start there is more elements then next time you watch you will be much more observant. Because otherwise you saw ghee was there, spices are thrown in. Next time youll look how much ghee, how hot was the ghee, what colour did the spices turn? Because as far as you remember they werent black when the other person showed you how to cook them and the vegetable was soft when you ate it what they cooked and yours is not. So you start to get more aware. Devotee (4): So this sravana it is application of the knowledge that was heard and then after that there is manana. Maharaja: No, sravana is just the hearing of the knowledge, that would be your interest, that is the pranipata and pariprasna. You have an interest to learn therefore you pay attention and you inquire submissively. Because you want an answer. Because you get the best answer from that way. If you challenge then you are going to get something that is designed to break the doubt but it will only do that because that is all the more you can appreciate. If you want to know more then that question will deal with that and broader. So you get more out of submission than out of challenging. Some think that challenging get their answers but the problem is it does but it makes a rough environment then it starts a very strong discussion between the speaker and that one person and a lot of other people feel left out. Plus depending upon the skill of these persons then you sometimes run the risk of one of them or both of them becoming annoyed or insulted. I just ran across this when I, in Boston, we went to somebodys house and there was one of these devotees who was around forever and more intelligent than most. Indian so he naturally felt he was already a step ahead of all the Westerners anyway. Well read so he could pull out so

many things out of the hat. So he felt to create discussion and all that to bring the classes just from the ordinary day to day into something special he had to ask in a very challenging way. Unfortunately he didnt notice that people were already asking questions because not so many questions were dealt with and it was coming in from angles he had never even heard of in fact thats why the challenges came up because he had never even understood that such body of knowledge existed. Then he starts with the challenge and because it is coming in from the particular angle of his false ego that being pointed out to them was very disturbing to him. Because it was pretty obvious that his questions were asked from this angle due to false ego. And he didnt actually want an answer he was just blabbering. So that pointed out made him feel very bad. And because when they feel bad then it is also the environment was in it was also in an Indian house, Indians dont like all this fighting, when you have sadhus and spiritual life then you should be pleasant and nice so it unsettled the hosts also. But unfortunately the speaker didnt let the person of ego run away with the whole class for his own purposes. So then just trying to set them straight it just ruined the atmosphere because that person couldnt handle it because he had never been defeated by anybody everybody respected his opinion or position or at least that he had questions that are tough to answer. But no one dealt with him as a person. Because him as a person he had problems. Very intelligent the questions were nice but the reasons he asked the questions werent right. They werent coming from pranipata or pariprasna. You could see he wasnt applying how much knowledge he had he wasnt applying it. So therefore he didnt have realization. Manana means with understanding you perform the activity, by performing the activity you get more understanding, so they nourish each other. Nidhidhyasana which is conscious development and application of personal values in ones life due to realization of what has been learned. In other words, you realize the purpose and its importance and therefore you consciously try to apply it in your life. By manana you develop practices and therefore you take these practices now more seriously. Before they were something you should do but now they are something that you want to do, so that also brings it to the natural, spontaneous platform. Devotee (5): What does pranipata mean? Maharaja: Pranipata means the desire to know, or interest. Four stages of learning which is basically the same thing. But it is just another angle because it is bringing out another aspect. The first one is bringing out that you have to serve, you have to apply it: pranipata, pariprasna, sevaya. Because it is not dealing there with nidhihyasana. If you do that nidhidhyasana will come. It is just like sambandha and abhidheya. Abhidheya the action will give you prayojana. If you say perform this action perform your duties properly means you will get the result that comes from proper performance of duties. Or just like you are saying thinking and feeling, it means willing will be there. If you have sambandha and prayojana because you have a need for that you will act. So here in the same way pranipata, pariprasna, sevaya, it is talking about the aspects of sambandha and abhidheya, it means prayojana will come. Devotee (3): If your sambandha is proper then it will lead to that desire and need to perform activities Maharaja: Yes, it will if you bring it to that point of interest. Because you can be rightly situated, that is what we were talking about the different between the sakarsana and Pradyumna. Sankarsana means you are properly situated, you know who you are, you know everything, you know the field, everything is proper in the field. But unless there is an interest to act in that field there will be no action. Once you come to an interest by contemplating that there will be attachment, once there is attachment there will be action.

Thats why some people can be very expert in who they are in their position and all that but have no relationship with anybody else. They are very expert, they do all their work nicely, you can depend upon them, they are always there, they never do anything wrong, they come early, they leave late. But they have no relationship with anybody else in the workplace. Because they are just functioning in Sankarsana. In other words, this is my work I am getting it done correctly. So they have all the abhidheya and prayojana in it but it is within the sphere of sambandha. It hasnt actually gone to the bigger picture of it. So there is no relationship with anybody else. So unless they are coming to that other thing that they are looking for work with the broader range of the field, have relationships with the aspects of the field. Or you have the other person who is very efficient but just uses people because they only see him as the element of the field. This person does this for me, I get that from that person, I talk to this person I get this done, but they are not dealing with people. So even so technically that is a person of the field so I need to get something from them, that is prayojana and I go to them and I ask for it that is the abhidheya, I got. But the whole consideration is without actual dynamic relationship. You are dealing with dead matter even though it seems to walk around and talk. But basically it could be an object or a person it doesnt matter. While when we go into the element of Pradyumna, then Pradyumna, Aniruddha, Vasudeva they go together but that all happens in the field. Thats why the field must be there. You have to have this knowledge but unless you perform activities you dont have a desire to work in that area. Just like devotees would ask Prabhupada I am in the kirtana but I dont feel like dancing. What should I do? Prabhupada says dance! Even if you artificially dance it will generate the interest to dance because the dancing is service. If you look at some other alternative thing outside the sphere. But in other words, performing devotional service will generate the interest to do devotional service. Any action done plants the seed to do the same thing again. Thats the process is, that is why vaidhi-sadhana is there, you dont necessarily want to do it but you know you should so by intelligence you do. By doing that with the proper knowledge then the actual desire to do it will come, that will mature into a need to perform that. Devotee (6): There is different levels of need like you were mentioning the need of prayojana. Because the materialists need is their desires. Maharaja: They call it desire because they dont make the distinction between need and desire. Its synonyms for them. We are pointing out they are synonyms in certain ways but in certain ways they are not. Because here we are putting attraction, interest and desire that more together. Need is another thing because its not really used so much now. But before they used to use, you go way back, 100 years, need would be used much more. People were more in touch with actually their own feelings. They had this terminology must needs. He must needs, is that its something he must have. Its not just a need, its a must need. So it would mean that attachment, he has to work for that. Its something you have to do. So now its just a desire, a feeling which is there but that feeling hasnt matured, you wont act. So if you are acting on it that is what we would call prayojana. If you are not acting on it, you just have the desire then that would be what we would call sambandha. The point is not as important the word because the problem is words can be used in so many ways. Its the position one is in to do. So if one is saying yes I really like that but is he going to act on that? But when he is willing to act on it then thats prayojana. If its a need to get him to that then you have to point out yeah its great with that you can do, you can do that, then it generates the need, then he will act.

Just like a student doesnt necessarily do something. Like we spoke about he doesnt sweep the floor properly. Thats because he doesnt see the importance of it, he doesnt see the need, he doesnt have a need to sweep properly. But when he understands what sweeping properly means for you or that position that it generates from having it. Clean environment, auspicious environment, the mode of goodness environment, then they are learning it, it has to be in that kind of environment then hell apply himself. So thats why the most important thing in education of training is education. Somebody does something wrong is due to ignorance. Thats why the first thing is try to explain to him why its not to be done. Its not immediately the punishment or chastisement. If there is a danger then you may have to go to that just to stop it, but explanation has to be there. Then by explanation most of your work is done. So the brahminical field you dont even have to take it beyond explanation because theyll work it out, theyll apply it. And then as you go down depending upon the character of the individual they can work it out themselves or they have to get some correction. And for a person who is not going to be corrected by correction anyway its academic still it has to be done because thats the method, and others will be satisfied they are getting some kind of punishment. But it doesnt do anything for them so thats the problem. So they have to get punished rather than once many, many times before they start to figure out that this is a problem. Devotee (3): So you were saying yesterday thats why we study philosophy. Maharaja: Yes, the philosophy will make it clear what you do. At the same time, you have to study the interaction, relationship and rasa so that you know what what you are doing is proper. The philosophy is where its origin is, what its position is, in other words, it is the sambandha-jnana of it which covers everything. When you studying why it is there and the purpose of it that is still sambandha. The application of it and how you apply that is abhidheya. One should perform devotional service, it will develop ones love for God, by chanting Hare Krsna you develop love for God, that is all sambandha. But it is sambandha applied on who you are, you are a servant of God, your position is to express your love for God and you get that by chanting. This is all sambandha that we have discussed, sambandha, abhidheya and prayojana. Now how you are going to chant and what is the nature of the experience of love of God that is abhidheya and prayojana. Sanatana Goswamis instructions and Rupa Goswamis the subject matter appears to be the same but the angle of approach is different. One is establishing the field and the other how you operate the field. Therefore the field is considered senior even though the operation is the most important and central, thats why Sanatana Goswami is seen as the senior, Rupa Goswami accepts him as senior. Thats why Balarama is senior to Krsna because He is the field, Sankarsana. But in actuality the important element is the activity and therefore Krsna is the center of the Vraja-lila and therefore Rupa Goswami is the center of Caitanya Mahaprabhus mission. September 22, 2008 Maharaja: One has to have an interest to know before one will be involved in the activity of learning and having been engaged in the activity of learning then one will naturally apply it. In this way you get pranipata, pariprasna, sevaya as sambandha, abhidheya and prayojana. Means you are taking the Pradyumna aspect, pranipata, you have a desire, then pariprasna is the process of interaction between teacher and student, and sevaya is the goal that you will apply it in your life, you use it, it will be yours and develop the character, the qualities necessary.

At the same time you can also take the sevaya as the application with the submissive inquiry, then the end result therefore will be realization. This sevaya can be in both categories: the application of the service in ones sadhana and by that then one will get the result of valuing that as your natural activities. In other words, it is something you are going to do, you are not doing it because you are studying you are doing it because this is what you want to do. So that sevaya goes in both places: it is in abhidheya because it is the service that you are rendering but at the same time the result is then that you will be involved in that service. Abhidheya means you are acting with the jnana-aspect, your natural activities of the self that is the vijnana aspect. So sravana, manana, nidhi-dhyasana. Sravana. We are hearing. Manana is the jnana, what you are intellectually understand and apply. Nidhidhyasana means realization, that has come from it. Sravana, then there is the pariprasna. Manana, means it will be contemplated, also includes the pariprasna, sevaya is its application. Nidhidhyasana, its realization but at the same time it is also service, but it has gone from a sadhana to ones lifestyle. Devotee (1): Why reading and studying without menial service is insufficient to produce realization? Maharaja: There was once a very intelligent and excellent student who had learned so much, and he wanted to learn more. He had so much knowledge. There was one teacher he wanted to study from because he knew some branches of knowledge that he didnt know yet. So he went to this teacher, introduced him and told him how much he had already studied and that he want to study more what this teacher had to offer what was unique. Ok, let us sit down first before getting into a serious discussion and since you are a guest first take some water. He gave a glass to the student and the teacher had a jug of water and starts pouring the water into the glass. The glass fills up and student nodded that it is enough but the teacher keeps pouring water, the glass overflows but he keeps pouring water at this time the student is: Cant you see the glass is full and nothing more will go inside. At that time, the teacher stopped pouring the water and said: exactly! Your cup is so full that no more knowledge will go in because you have no humility. Menial service for the brahmacaris to generate humility, that is the point. He has been directly instructed by authority to perform activities. Performing those activities enthusiastically in that humble mood that will generate the ability to learn more. For grhasthas, it is not specifically menial service, he can have servants, he can have this and that. By the nature of the grhastha asrama he has to be humble in his dealings with the family. So then he has to use his intelligence very nicely to find out how to behave and what to do. By that humility he is able to gain more knowledge. If the grhastha is proud and thinks he is great then he cant learn anything. If the grhastha actually understands that even though I may know so much I know nothing and is always willing to learn and has a humble attitude, he can continue to learn. The grhastha asrama will also create the environment in which you will learn. The position doesnt matter. But the point is humility must be obtained because humility is the first item of knowledge. When Krsna describes knowledge the first quality He gives is humility. Only one out of 20 is studying sastra. 19 is ones attitude and ones activities. That means sitting down and studying the book is only a small part of the educational process because if you are not prepared what will you get from studying that book. Before a brahmacari heard it once and he remembered it for the rest of his life, that is prepared. Nowadays there are so many distractions, that focus is not there. Therefore as much as we can focus, the more humble we are the more we know.

Even if we are not great academic scholars and know only something very simple but we have that purity and humility then how we will be able to apply that seemingly small amount of knowledge that will be unlimited. Through a small one thing you can understand everything else. By understanding the nature of one grain of rice in the pot you can understand the nature of all the other grains of rice. Someone who has the capacity may know all the sastras but someone who only knows a portion of one if he knows that perfectly by his humble submissive service attitude and dedication to guru then he will be able to apply that to everything in his life and in others lives, just as the scholar will take all that body of knowledge to apply that in someone elses life. He knows so many things but from the total he only knows that much because that is his ability to apply because of his service. But the other has a seemingly small but in his life takes up that same amount, so it has the same effect. The one is getting more out of a little bit and the scholar is getting less out of many, but putting it together it is the same volume. 4 stages of learning Adhiti. To learn a subject thoroughly. Adhiti is like sravana. Hearing the knowledge from a teacher and this is to learn a subject thoroughly. Hearing the knowledge means you should hear it but then you should learn it thoroughly. This is just bringing out different aspects of the same thing. You can hear from a teacher and it can go on in the one ear and out the other ear. But this is you are hearing and paying attention Bodha. To gain insight and proficiency in ones learning. Same as gaining an intellectual understanding through practice and reflection on what is learned. Insight and proficiency, that is your skills: Knowledge skills and values. Acarana. Realizing the purpose of, and living according to our learning. Similar to nidhidhyasana. Acarana means that you follow it. Acara is what you do. Acarya is one who follows that. Pracara means enlightening others on acara. Vicara means to discuss the various aspects of acara from different angles. Sadacara means your own personal private practices, you practice it yourself. Pracara. Giving this knowledge to others. Also Srila Prabhupada quotes in the Caitanya-caritamrta, first in the adi-lila, he also goes through these four stages and he is quoting from Vamana, Varaha or Visnu-purana but he uses slight different words. But basically it is hearing, practicing, realizing and giving to others. So it is the same stages of learning. 5 topics of BG: Isvara, jiva, prakrti, kala and karma. Isvara means the Supreme Lord and His position as the Lord of all potencies. Jiva meaning jiva-tattva. Prakrti specifically refering to material energy, and how we are illusioned about it and how to convert that back to service to Krsna. Kala is time which means activity. This will then be involved in whatever our activities are either be spiritual or material depending on how we see isvara and prakrti. Then karma is the result of kala or those activities. Means you perform material then you get either pious or impious or it is devotional or transcendental then you get the result of that. So these are the 5 topics of Gita. It says it right there in the introduction. So there is no need of speculating what are the topics. Understanding all these things is sambandha. In this your karma is going to get you a result. Isvara, jiva, prakrti that is also known as cit, acit, isvara. Cit meaning whats real, what has substance, that would be the jiva, the internal potency, but for us it specifically means the jiva, our connection to the internal potency. Acit the material energy which is not connected to transcendental. Isvara meaning Krsna. So it is also cit, acit, isvara. Then you have karma, that would be your activities. But here specifically

kala would be the activity and karma would be the result. So then you would get sambandha, abhidheya and prayojana here. So it is a matter of what karma you want. Thats why we can say karma-yoga and we can be talking about devotional service. We can also say karma-yoga and means that they are using karma along with some proper understanding and using it as a process for elevation. But it may just be used for liberation. Because technically the astanga-yoga system is categorized in karma. Sometimes we say karma, jnana and yoga but one must be free from these and established on the transcendental platform. Most of the time we just say karma and jnana because yoga is actually considered karma because it is using the mind and the senses. So then it goes into that category. It can either be split off or be put together. Just like sometimes we split the jnana into the impersonalists and the Mayavadis. The Mayavadis are just a write-off. They seemingly follow the impersonalists but they actually dont. Because the impersonalists they dont reject Paramatma and Bhagavan. They just dont know about it. If you explain it to them they accept it because they are transcendentalists. Mayavadis even if you explain it to them they dont want to accept. The impersonalist is not trying to be God and the impersonalist thinks that everything is God and therefore God can also be God so they dont have a problem with that but the Mayavadis think that everybody can be God except God because I am God, you can also be God but God cant be God. 5 topics of the Upanisad o The nature of Brahman o The nature of the soul (jivatma) & its relationship with Brahman o The material energy, its origin & connection with Brahman o The means of attaining Brahman (sadhana) o The nature of the Supreme Goal & the status of the jiva in mukti All religions and philosophies if you just look at these five points you will understand everything about them. Bhaktivinoda Thakura in amnaya-sutras he writes 10 sutras on each on of these. So there is 50 sutras to describe these. He is giving that as the essence of the Upanisads. It can also be used as a form those 10. Once Atma-tattva Prabhu was discussing with a Jaimini sutra scholar, this person he argued just on Jaimini. He was in a Jaimini sampradaya, learned that and spoke that and lived that. Atma-tattva was discussing with him and the sutras were exactly to the point. So he had made his point and Atma-tattva made his point according to the amnaya-sutra which is based on these 5 topics of the Upanisads. Then after some time this scholar said what is your skeleton. What form are you using because you have some form here. Most people they talk, I heard something from here and there and they put it together. He says everything you say is consistent and it is in a specific form. So then he explained to him this amnaya-sutra. Here we see it is the same elements that are in the Gita, because Gita is Upanisad, Gitopanisad. o The nature of Brahman, is isvara o The nature of the soul (jivatma) & its relationship with Brahman, is jiva o The material energy, its origin & connection with Brahman, is prakrti o The means of attaining Brahman (sadhana), is kala o The nature of the Supreme Goal & the status of the jiva in mukti, is karma

Isvara, prakrti and jiva are eternal. Kala and karma are temporary, the principles are always there but the effect on us is temporary, then we are acting not on material time and karma but on transcendental time and transcendental karma. The Upanisads and Gita are trying to get us to that position. All these can be brought back into that. We see that sometimes we are dealing with 3, 4 or here 5 aspects, they keep moving according to the perspective. Lord Caitanya has given an expansion of this sambandha, abhidheya and prayojana that includes everything, all these details, called dasa-mula-tattva. That specifically Bhaktivinoda Thakura documented that, it was known but it wasnt written no one had put any book together on it because it was standard. Like japa means 108 beads and they go from big to small and they fit in a bag and so you dont think about it. So no one thinks to write that down. So the dasa-mula is very common. So it wasnt written. So when Bhaktivinoda Thakura was seeing that it wasnt understood so much then he wrote this down. So that will be part of our studies, this dasa-mula. In there you are taking these principles and expanding them to 10. In this the sambandhajnana or cit, acit, isvara God, the living entity and material nature - are expanded out into 7 points, then abhidheya stays as 1 point and prayojana stays as 1 point. Another additional point is from sambandha there has to be a basis for all this knowledge: that is the sastra, the Veda. From that authority, from sabda, you are going to get all the, in other words that is pramana, or authority, evidence and then prameyas are those that are proved by that authority, pramana. So then he breaks down the element of isvara into 3 main aspects: He is the origin of everything, all-knowing, all-cognizant, all-present, all these kind of all this all that qualities. He is the Lord of all His different energies, and He is the Lord of rasa. In this we have the nava prameyas and the dasa-mula, they are the same thing. The difference is that the dasamula is all-encompassing because it includes rasa. Whereas the nava prameyas what is used for Vedanta-sutra or that kind of line of sastra is meant for dealing with those who havent necessarily accepted and therefore those doubts have to be removed. The Upanisadic will deal with 9 and your Bhagavatam will deal with 10 because Bhagavatam is for those who have already accepted the philosophy and want to go deeper. They want to remove whatever anarthas are there but they are committed to that study and lifestyle. So then the jiva itself you have that they are conditioned. Means of three categories: conditioned, liberated and fortunate. Fortunate means conditioned souls who are in the process of becoming liberated. Then you have acintya-bhedhabheda-tattva and then you have material energy. In this way you end up with 7 aspects there. It is basically the same thing just expanded a little bit. And so then all these will be covered in there. Nature of Brahman so here is one point, dasa-mula is three points. Like that, so its just making it more clear. Devotee (1): Bhagavatamrici-mala? Maharaja: The eight of them, means the sambbandha-jnana remains exactly as it is because its been fully expanded in the Upanisads and in Bhagavad-gita. Now what it does it expands, means one expands into four in sabda, your authority, and then the abhidheya expands I forget how many, and then the prayojana expands. Because the Bhagavatam then, because now we have established the sambandha now the abhidheya and prayojana can also be fully expanded. Because Gita is basically saying that you should do devotional service, you should have proper mentality of naiskarmya, you should be done as service to Krsna, you should perform your duties. Because it is part of the Mahabharata.

Mahabharata is establishing how to perform your duties. The essence of the Vedic literatures is in the Mahabharata. You have written the whole Mahabharata then one how do you know what is the essence and two how do you give the essence to someone who is not studying all those sastras? Therefore Mahabharata it is in story form, very interesting, stories everyone likes, form the children and the family members, to the scholars everyone likes a good story, at the same time in those stories everything can be put. In there the gita gives the essence of that. Proper performance of your duties with proper knowledge and detachment, thinking of Krsna and to please Krsna, that is taking the whole process. Everything comes together as this devotional process, that is buddhi-yoga. We are just becoming familiar with these things because when they come up later you are not bewildered. So keep this around for a while to refer to until you are very familiar. Because at different times, different examples, or different formulas will be used, these different systems. The course itself has the freedom to use all these things very, very comfortably. Because this Bhagavad-gita study, it is the foundation, it is the basis but its not kids stuff. It is very serious, very deep study. So that means the Bhagavatam is deeper than that. Thats the idea. 5 levels of consciousness. Prabhupada talks about this, and then there is two aspects, the levels of consciousness and the levels of acquiring knowledge, they are also they go together, they are like these parallel things, it is the same thing but described from a different point of view. You have anna-maya, prana-maya, mano-maya, vijana-maya and ananda-maya. Sometimes mano-maya also called jnana-maya. Mano-maya is the platform of religiosity. That platform of religiosity means acting according to your nature, performing your prescribed duties, means they must be done with knowledge, jnana, and activity, the religion. It can be mano-maya meaning the mind and the senses that is applying whats there, or jnana-maya meaning that the intelligence is used along with the mind and senses. So either can be used but the central point is the mind here, but intelligence is used with it. That is also your manana, is the intellectual understanding through practice and reflection. Or bodha, to gain insight and proficiency in ones learning, it is the same platform. Because a brahmacari his position is to hear and practice. That is his dharma. So that will come there. So that is where everything is happening, that is the central point. Thats why it starts dharma, artha, kama and moksa. You could start being logical moksa, dharma , artha, kama. Or if you are talking about getting out of here kama, artha, dharma, moksa. So but it goes dharma, artha, kama and moksa. It is never said in any other way because the central point is dharma. From dharma you can go towards moksa, or from dharma you can go to artha and kama. Having done artha and kama you come back to moksa. So you can either pravrtti dharma, artha, kama then moksa. Or nivrtti dharma, moksa. Pravrtti means the path of engaging the senses. Nivrtti means the path of not engaging the senses. Nivrtti: brahmacari, vanaprastha, sannyasa. Pravrrti: grhastha. Within grhastha-life Krsna recommends that it is also nivrtti because you are engaging all those aspects not for your sense gratification. You are engaging in sense gratification but not for sense gratification. You are engaging in sense gratification to engage the senses in the Lords service and to get an intellectual understanding, this bodha and manana, of whats actually going on. It is practice so you have to become expert at it, like here insight and proficiency in ones learning. You have heard how you are supposed to deal with family life, material energy, money and all these things and now you do it. Like Arjuna hears that he is supposed to engage in this battle in a particular consciousness, now he does it. And he is a grhastha, that is not a problem.

The question for the devotee is just which path is more suitable for him, which path will keep him fully engaged. If you dont need a family to keep body, mind and words fully engaged in the Lords service why would you have one? You are already engaged, why add something that is going to distract from full engagement. But if engaging without the family the body, mind and words is not fully engaged then therefore family life is to take up that gap. Whatever the slack is that will take it up easily and probably more than what you expected. I got this little part right here I need to deal with so well just add in, what happened here? And that we were just talking about the saris, we were not talking about other things. And thats one shelf, you can only put so many on a shelf and the bar will bend, so its only that much on the shelf. All these things are interconnected, we are only dealing with this point the Gita is making: engaging yourself fully in the Lords service - body, mind, and words. Thats all that is being discussed. That engagement is austerity. And that you are doing it as naiskarmya, with knowledge that is sacrifice. That is the element of sacrifice. Then the results of that are given away, they are given to Krsna. Either you have given it beforehand, naiskarmya, or after you get it, sakama. Either way it is given away, that is charity. So therefore austerity, sacrifice and charity are always to be performed, they may have different details of application. You give money, because that is valuable or you give some time but eventually you are supposed to give your life and all your activities. In other words, body, mind and words are given and whatever that produces that is given to Krsna, that is your charity. Body, mind and words are engaged in the Lords service for His satisfaction that is your sacrifice. Body, mind and words are engaged in the Lords service according to what is the appropriate way of dealing according to your position in relationship to the Lord, that is your austerity. That element of completeness is what we are trying for. In the beginning it is a little austere so we fast have a day, that is austerity. We take that as austere. Oh its hot out to day, thats austere. That is an aspect of austerity but the real point is why should you be fasting that is the austerity. That you are fasting because it is your duty, then that duty naturally has difficult aspects. It has also nice aspects, taking prasada is not a bad thing. That is also an austerity or a duty you have to perform. So therefore prasada is accepted. So therefore very difficult austerity eating all that nice prasadam. Devotee (1): Pracarana is the fourth one, does that mean the result of our studying is that we preach or is it an activity? Maharaja: It is both. It is a result that we are going to come to that platform of teaching but as vijnana it will be the platform from which we will live. Many of these things have their position when they are working on and then they can switch positions or they hold dual positions. Any goal you have becomes part of the sambandha, once it is obtained. Because the sambandha is your field of activity, so once you have obtained a goal it becomes part of your field of activities. Then the next activity can be performed on the expanded sambandha. He has no house, now he has a house, so that becomes part of his field, now in the house he can do so many things. Prabhupada therefore explains Aniruddha always moves back to Pradyumna because that is his source. And that Pradyumna is based on Sankarsana, because thats his source. But the whole point is performance of activity, because Vasudeva ultimately is the source. At the same time you can also take it that in because you have both explanations of the creation. After Krsna expands into Balarama, Balarama to Maha-Narayana, Maha-Narayana into Maha-Sankarsana and then from Sankarsana you get Pradyumna, Aniruddha and

Vasudeva. Vasudeva comes on his own - and then Pradyumna is separate and Aniruddha. So you have Sankarsana, Pradyumna and Aniruddha, and then from sankarsan you get Vasudeva. If you look at this at the dharma, artha, kama and moksa. Dharma that is Sankarsana, he establishes religious principles, from him comes artha and kama, Pradyumna and Aniruddha come from Him. At the same time on the other way Vasudeva comes, because vasudeva-sattva that is the liberated platform. Pradyumna is the attraction to be involved in those things and Aniruddha, the senses are actually engaged in the sense objects. That is one way to explain it, generally way to explain it. Generally that is how we deal because after that thats how it is functioning. Based on the field of activities, having attraction to it, having a need for it therefore one will engage in the activity, Vasudeva, therefore Vasudeva is coming from Sankarsana. The other way is, because we are talking about the original, means originally there is Vasudeva, Krsna. Then he expands as Balarama after that it is the other way round. All other Vasudevas are actually expanded from Sankarsana or Balarama. Krsna in Dvaraka is actually an expansion of Balarama, but his mood is that of Krsna. Balarama has his mood, Pradyumna has his mood, Aniruddha has his mood. But this is the other aspect. All this is there, why is it there? Because Vasudeva wants interaction or pastimes with His devotees. To do that you need a field of activity, then Sankarsana comes, then the field is very nice and there is attraction. Like we see in the Krsna book Krsna goes out He is walking with the devotees and then He is commenting how nice it is. Or lets take the one in the Tenth Canto, He goes and He sees the moon, the night and the moon and the full-moon and the bright-light and the mood, the forest and the air, the season and He thinks this is a perfect time for the rasa dance. That means Sankarsana was there, inspired by that He became attracted and then He has the need, then He plays the flute and the gopis come and there is rasa dance. So the whole process is working there. Who created all that? He did, for the purpose of rasa. Thats why you can explain it both ways, both are true. Devotee (2): Could you say that looking from tattva they all expand from Sankarsana and looking at it from rasa it all start from Vasudeva? Maharaja: In one sense you could but at the same time in rasa it will still go that way. In other words, I would have a tendency if you look at it from, it would be another one I dont think we have on here because generally that would come later but we can put it on there, is sarva-jna and muktada, these are mood of Krsna. Sarva-jna means He knows everything, from Goloka Vrndavana He knows everything everywhere down to the little atom to the little grain of sand you are sitting on now, He knows everything. Mukdata means that He Himself by His own will puts Himself under His own yoga-maya so He doesnt know all of this and He only knows that He is the son of Maharaja Nanda. In other words, from the one you can say it is coming like that and the other is, He has that desire for that therefore He has arranged it like that. The other one is He doesnt know and then He is just as seemingly as affected by the situation as everybody else is. At the same time even in those two they both contain both. Because of His desire for rasa therefore He expands the others. The position and rasa is not a separate entity in Krsna, thats why it is said He and His energies are non-different. Even though He is the Lord of sat, or eternality that doesnt mean that He also not the Lord of ananda and cit. It is just that to enjoy that He gives those categories to someone else. Even though He is sambandha and everyone is basically based on Him, Balarama is the cit-potency which is the abhidheya, and Radharani is the hladini-potency. At the same time He moves to the position of Vasudeva and Balarama moves over there . Thats why the principles of knowledge are both in sambandha as

Pradyumna, and abhidheya as Vasudeva. Because you perform your activity with knowledge but it is knowledge of how to make the activity work right, not knowledge of why I should do it, it is a different aspect. Sambandha is I should be doing this, it is the right thing to do, how to do that this is abhidheya, meaning doing it that is abhidheya, using you intelligence, this is better now this is this. So its two different aspects. Devotee (3): SankarsanaVasudevathey are therefore the same person. But according to the mood what the Lord takes up. Maharaja: Thats it, there is one Lord, Krsna is one person. According to mood He expands. Depending upon the mood then there is ones that are exactly means Krsna expands like He is with the gopis they are exactly the same Krsna, they are not somebody else, they dont have a different mood. Or He expands and they actually have a different mood like Balarama or Narayana, same person but they have a different mood. Like the high-court judge is at home, he has different expansions at home but they are the same: him with his wife, with his kids, with his close friends, him just kicking around on his house just on his own but it is still him just tasting different aspects but he has to do it separately while Krsna can do all of them at once. When he goes to the office, he goes to the court that is a different mood. Thats the whole point, Krsna at home or Krsna in the office. Vaikuntha is the office. Devotee (3): In the beginning Krsna is alone and then He has His moods Maharaja: He manifests all these moods and therefore you get this broad variety. All the moods are there in Krsna and thats way He is black, because all rasa is there. But there is that same oneness again when He wants to specifically just taste the conjugal rasa. So therefore He is golden. So it is one but it doesnt contain all the others. It is there but they are in their hidden form. Like you will see that He will manifest as Varaha or this or that, Lord Caitanya. But that is Gaura-Narayana. Like at Yoga-pitha you have Gaura-Narayana with Visnu-priya and Laksmi-priya. Then you have Lord Caitanya as non-different from Radha-Krsna. Then you have Lord Caitanya as the Panca-tattva. So those are the Deities that are established by the acaryas so those are the three views we have of. So as Narayana He is doing that but His main point is He has come to taste as Radha and Krsna. These others are secondary. Thats why He goes from one to two back to one. If you manifested the two then the one makes sense. If you interact then the one, then the intimacy based that interaction, in other words it is an element of rasa. While the first one is tattva: Krsna is 1, that is tattva, everything is there. But Krsna as 1 as Lord Caitanya that is what is rasa means He is tasting the rasa. The other He is atma-rama, so He is only tasting that much. The other He is tasting the adirasa, which has all the taste of everything but that is the difference. (end of lecture) (end) September 23, 2008 Maharaja: Continuing 5 levels of consciousness. Anna-maya means the senses, it is sensual perception, or engagement of the senses. Pranamaya that you are going to extend the sense gratification for others. In other words, you care about others sense gratification. Mana-maya will be the platform of religiosity, not even technically be your ethics, ethics would prana-maya. Where you understand the nature of something and act according to that. Vijnana-maya will be the platform of understanding the nature of the soul. Ananda-maya will be situated on that transcendental platform, so specifically for us it means devotional service because your ananda-maya is eternal platform therefore it is devotional service, that relationship with Krsna or for the impersonalists being situated in Brahman actually on the Brahman-platform though it is temporary.

Then anna-maya, we have 5 Stages of Sense Perception. This is coming from Bhaktivinoda Thakura. Body 1. Gathering of information by the knowledge acquiring senses The senses are pulling in information all the time constantly they are always doing that. Then it goes to the mind. Mind 2. Accumulation of feelings So then theyll bring them all together, thats samasa. 3. Reduction of the information to what is presently required What focus are we talking about now. So many things are coming in but we are hearing the class. There may be other feelings, senses are pulling in, other information but it reduces it down to this. Your feeling is there, you want to hear the class. So therefore the information, the class is important. Otherwise you are sitting in the class and thinking of something else then the mind will go to that. In other words, whatever is important to the mind that is where it goes. The information is there then whatever is the feelings on that, whatever is the most important then it is going to reduce it down to that. In here also there is an element here of the memory. The mind will access the intelligence at this point for the memory. To do this fourth point, accepting and rejecting, it will go back to past experiences. 4. Accepting and rejecting What does the memory bring up on this kind of situation then according to that then the mind accepts and rejects. Intelligence 5. Reasoning Then you use the intelligence to see what will be best for my sense pleasure, how to apply it. So then the mind will get the senses engaged. In this way we can see the mind becomes the center of this whole process of sense gratification. It pulls in the information from the senses but the senses are functioning because the intelligence can discriminate between the sense objects. But it is doing that for the mind, and then the memory which is part of the intelligence is also used for the mind to make its decision, and then once it has made the decision it engages the intelligence whats the best way to apply the senses. So the central feature is the mind, you catch the mind then you catch everything. You get body, mind and words, you catch the mind, you have everything. You cant catch the mind then catch the body: stick in the kitchen with all the pots do that for 6 months, one becomes purified then the devotee is able to start to discriminate a bit, he is able to use more, then they can start doing other services. Pranamaya means you are going to do this for others. Knowledge above sensual but without knowledge of the next life. All your isms come into this. Moral codes, political sciences, economics, justice, others sense gratification, all that comes into here. Feeding people, clothing people, medicine for people. What you are considering good for your senses,

body and mind, but for others. So this knowledge doesnt go, you dont understand the next life. You dont necessarily understand the nature, there is a touch of it because it is in between religion, mano-maya and anna-maya, so there is a little bit of element that you understand that this person is hungry, there is a need. But really what is hunger, why is there a need for interacting on that way that is not there. Because today you feed them and tomorrow you are distracted by something and dont feed them. But if we are working on religion. So that is the problem with prana-maya: It is an extension of anna-maya and therefore it comes back to yourself. I will engage in prana-maya as long as I am into it. But religion means whether I want to do it or not I have to do it. It is hot outside I dont like to cook, from annamaya you wouldnt do it. But from the platform of religion it is my duty to cook and therefore I am cooking even though I necessarily I dont want to cook. Therefore it will create stability, as soon as you go into the senses there is no stability. As long as it is dealing with the actual inherent nature, the nature never changes, therefore dealing on that platform there will be stability. Like the conservative creates stability because there is some standards but at the same time it is not dynamic as far as the social. The other one is socially dynamic but you can never guarantee it will be stable. Devotee (1): College students may be into environmentalism and social justice and in India they are more pious but dont come beyond their family. It seems one is more broad in their compassion and the other is more selfish? Maharaja: You have the Western college student so now he is interested in the environment so it seems it is more broad it is for everybody whats his relationship with his family? Devotee (1): Not as good as Maharaja: So therefore as far as actual social standing who will be better situated socially? Devotee (1): The Indian. Maharaja: Because the one has a good relationship with the family therefore if you can make him understand the environment has an effect on his family then that is respected also. But the other has respect for the environment but he cant function in a family unit so therefore if he becomes disturbed by what goes on in that family unit he may also not worry so much about the environment. The environmentalist doesnt mind going and blowing up a chemical factory. But what did they blow the factory about with? Chemicals made by possibly that factory. There is no standard for what they consider environmentally good. Green means what? So that is the difficulty there is no specific standard. This one is saving the blue whale the other one couldnt care less about the blue whale. They are saving something else. Whats important for one is not for another. You have basically two kinds of these persons. The ganapatyas they are specifically interested in a particular group of life. So they are worrying about students, old people, diseased people, poor people, this kind of animal, that animal. Then you have the sauryas they worry about life. The more general, the whole planet. They dont care about any specific form of life. So you have these two groups. Anna-maya they will just be interested in their senses, what is good for their sense gratification. What they can pull in from that. In that category you have scientists, academics. What it is that they can see or touch, taste, smell, that exists, all their theories everything is based on that. So they are the lowest of this. Technically you have your nuclear quantum

physicist he is actually on a lower position than a greeny house wife. His consciousness is lower, very intelligent but his consciousness is lower. Prana-maya has elements of knowledge and elements of sacrifice and duties, but they are narrow they are basically defined upon your interest. Even if you are pious and are acting according to sastra politics is your interest that is why you are dealing in it. Not that you need to deal in it therefore you are dealing in it. I am interested in economics thats why I do it rather than I have a duty to take care of certain independence therefore I have to make some endeavour in the economic field and since I am endeavouring in it I might as well as be good. And economics has its nature and therefore I work with economics also according to its nature therefore I get good results. So it is a different path that they are taking. They end up seemingly the same way but the path they got there is very different so the consciousness is very different. One is sustainable, the other is not. Because the externals come and go. Yudhisthira his path is sustainable therefore he is always virtuous. But sometimes he has position and facility and sometimes he doesnt. They were living in the forest, the father died they came into the city, then they are living a city life, they Duryodhana gets envious of Bhisma then they go to Varanyavata then they end up in exile again for a year. Then they marry Draupadi and come back into the whole thing then they accepted again into the family and enter Indraprastha and then again they are living in the city life. Then the gambling match and again in the forest. Then they come back, they have the war, they are again in the city. Then the time is up, then they go back to the forest. But the constant principle is the proper performance of prescribed duties, doing that to please Krsna. That is the constant. What environment they will be in that is always changing. Material world is constantly changing, it will never be the same. It is always moving, it is always dynamic. Then the thing is is this one better than that one. It just depends what you are looking at. The person who has the piety you try to broaden that to understand the greater nature and the person who is into the benefit of everybody but they have to know who the self is to be able to actually benefit anybody else. Like on the airplane when you are supposed to put on the oxygen mask which oxygen mask you are supposed to put on first? Devotee (1): Your own. Maharaja: How many people can you help if you dont have an oxygen mask on? Devotee (1): No one. Maharaja: Not so many. Now lets say another person didnt get their oxygen mask on time they went unconscious you can still put it on them if you have one on. But if you are unconscious you dont do a lot for others. You have about 15-30 seconds before you black-out. You can only help a very few people. Even if you get the mask on your kid, but you dont get it on yourself you black-out there is not guaranty your kid will put it on you or the kid may not even like it, mummy I dont like this and takes it off. Then both of you are blacked out. If you cant save yourself then you cant save anybody. Technically the pious person who understands the nature of the self and sastra is better situated because they already have guru, sadhu and sastra, the whole Vedic process in place, though may be misdirected or not going far enough but at least the form of is there. While the other one seemingly has something but if you look there is nothing to back it up. A person has one gold coin worth a thousand bucks. The other has pieces of paper that they say a thousand bucks. Technically who is more wealthy? Yes, because the gold is there it doesnt go away. And you can even put faces on it if you want.

Mano-maya, thats the platform of religiosity. Occupational duties, thats your varnasrama. World religions but they are based on fear of God, but no actual development of a relationship. Anything other than Vaisnavism its concept of relationship with God is based on fear. The impersonalists are fearful of a personal concept of God, lets say the Mayavadis, so they reject God. Others are afraid of Him but they accept Him, because they think He is bigger than me so I should accept Him. The impersonalist is He is God and I am also God and therefore I do not have to accept Him. Speculative philosophies. Technically speaking we put them in this category because of the nature, because of their definition with religion but actually speaking other than varnasrama the world religions, philosophies, all these things that are not connected with the Vedic, varnasrama, the Vedic principle are actually prana-maya. Because what is it that they say what are your occupational duties? Be nice, be good, forgive the other person. Up to now what maya is this? Prana-maya. The Vedic is you have to respect others because you have to respect other persons by their position therefore you are nice and good. Or your nature is to elevate yourself out of the material world that is what the human form of life is meant for, therefore to be too absorbed and revengeful and too attached that is not good for spiritual progress, therefore it should be given up and that is why you should forgive the other person. But the other is you forgive them. Why should you forgive them? The guy is a ratbag. Why he should be forgiven? That they cant explain, no but it is good God forgave, but why does God forgive? They cant explain that because all they have is prana-maya. Because they dont actually understand the nature of God, the nature of the living entity and nature of the the material world. They dont know. So thats why when we say nature it means everything. Religion actually means the nature, that tree what is the nature of that tree? So thats why it has to be in the ground. It has to get water, it has to get sun. So in our dealing in that area in our dealing something that gets too close to that tree we have to consider the tree. We are going to build, cut the roots, or it wont get water, or the branches will be cut off, or it wont get any sun, that is against the nature of the tree. Therefore it is irreligious. So dealing with that tree is already part of our religion. Because religion is one entity, the inherent nature of something that you cant change. Devotee (2): If that comes up in prana-maya to some degree then what is? Maharaja: Prana-maya is in between anna-maya and mano-maya so it has a touch of both. But it started from anna-maya and extended up to mano-maya. The consideration of others from the dharma is there in prana-maya but the consideration is not based on the inherent nature of it. Thats why it needs that because you have a purpose in giving that to them. The mother feeds the child because it is her duty. From the proper performance of her duty then comes the nice interaction and relationships that the parent appreciates. In that way the mother always feeds the child even if she is upset with it. But if it is coming from prana-maya so its basis is anna-maya then that sentiment is there as long as the child is behaving nicely, when it doesnt then the mother doesnt feel like feeding the child, or doesnt interact with him and feed him. So then one the relationship doesnt develop, though they think that will make it develop, but it doesnt because the laws they are using there arent the laws of parent-child relationship. They are applying husband and wife relationship rules on the child, how you chastise a husband that is different than a kid. They apply that on that and so they dont know. So it doesnt work. So that is the weakness of it. Even if you deal in pranamaya you have to deal according to sastra otherwise you dont know what should be done. Therefore the Vedas have so many scriptures in this realm of artha

You have the artha-sastra, dharma-sastras always deal with artha and kama. You have your niti-sastra which is your ethics and morality, you have to give in charity etc. Those will be seen as prana-maya but they are not. The social structures, all these things, they are actually the Vedic structure. So those that go against the Vedic and say it is not useful and that then they are saying nothing has an inherent nature. Water is not wet. It was 5000 years ago and therefore it is not now, or it is wet now so it wasnt wet before. The same nature is changeable but that means it is not inherent so they are only seeing the externals. So that is not a very deep understanding. Very immature understanding. When you see the inherent nature that is your inspiration, that is your relationship. You are actually dealing with relationship. The other one you are not dealing actually with relationship. You are technically dealing more with dead matter. You are dealing with senses, but you are not dealing with emotions. Devotee (2): So in mana-maya you are working with knowledge and in prana-maya you can accidentally use it? Maharaja: No, prana-maya you can be working with knowledge but the knowledge is less deep. Like the senses what they run on is the intelligence. Like a car runs on petrol. So the senses run on intelligence. The skin deals with touch so let us take texture. But the difference between something smooth and something rough how is that ascertained? Thats by intelligence. The skin is the medium to gain the knowledge of what is the situation but what that situation actually is that is the intelligence. Then the mind takes that and what the mind wants to do with it. So still the intelligence is there all the way through like the mind accepting and rejecting is there all the way through. The body is there all the way through. But it is just where the emphasis lies, thats all. So it is not that in religion you are not dealing with the artha and kama but it is based in religion therefore according to religion you are engaging in artha and kama. Its different. Your focus is religion then the other things go from there. Otherwise the person in pranamaya their focus is on prana-maya, or anna-maya it is on anna-maya. They are dealing in that to the exclusion of the others. Or they might have two of them. But someone based in religion he can deal with all of them. Because there is a religious nature of money, morality, justice. There is an inherent nature of the senses. So according to the laws of the senses you are dealing with the senses. Therefore even your sense gratification is religious. Your artha is religious. Therefore you have to have philosophy and religion. Otherwise how do you deal? Devotee (1): Why is prana-maya not addressed emotion? It seems prana-maya is more free from emotion on the platform of intelligence. Maharaja: What generates emotion? Devotee (1): The mind Maharaja: So the mind and the sense how long does that last? Devotee (1): Long. Maharaja: The mind and having done a good deed how long does that last? Devotee (1): Longer. Maharaja: The mind and a relationship where there was real commitment between two persons that acted for each others benefit. How long does that last? Devotee (1): Longest. Maharaja: That means they are getting something that means people who are interested in emotion and those kind of taste go into prana-maya and in this way they taste something but

how much is there? But if you are dealing on the platform of nature that is different, that is emotion that is different. We will get to rasa that is the next point after this. Then these things will make a little bit more sense. Then Vijnana-maya is intellectual understanding between body and soul. We understand the nature of the soul. If you think the body is the soul that is not vijnana-maya. It is not even mana-maya because they dont even understand what is the nature of something, they cant even understand the nature of the body, the body is temporary, so how is that going to be the soul? Ananda-maya, absolute knowledge, our relationship with Krsna, Krsna consciousness. This is important for us. It also could be said to be the happiness to be situated on the Brahmanplatform. Vijnana-maya is that knowledge by which you have realization. But actually coming to that liberated platform you could say it is there, the happiness from liberation is there but for the devotee that is inconsequential. Means what a fraction of a portion of a drop compared to the unlimited ocean of bhakti. So who is going to care for that drop? It is not even a full drop. Technically that is where it would go but we dont bother with it. Another interesting thing just on varnasrama here. Anna-maya because you are dealing with the senses, the sudras, their field is engaging the senses, or expressing themselves through the senses. In other words, by the senses whatever is their interest is whats getting done. If it is fine arts then it is through music, thats through the senses. If it is just getting something other aspects, you can see it, or there is some aesthetic value to it or some texture or something like that. Or if its just you are getting something done, you dug the hole in the ground. But it was your senses that you were utilizing to dig the hole. That is the natural platform of the consciousness of that occupation. Then for vaisya it is prana-maya because economics, you need justice and morality. If there is no morality someone is going to steal your money. If they have stolen your money without justice you wont get it back. Therefore vaisyas are very overwhelmed by morality. If you have a devotee has done something that is immoral basically vaisyas have a real hard time forgiving them, they just cant because its against their occupational position. So unless they have advanced nicely spiritually then from a devotional platform of course because the devotee is automatically a brahmana, he can forgive. But if not, so you see a lot of times devotees no but he did this, but that was 25 years. Why cant they let go? Because of that mentality. That is always a weakness there. But they are going to see it through money, through morality, through justice. Thats going to be their vision. So when somebody is talking and all they talk are these elements there is a good chance that thats their nature. Or if they are talking expression, that freedom and those things, then you are talking about a sudra. Mano-maya, that is ksatriya you are talking about dharma, establishing dharma, according to dharma. Seeing that everyone else is doing their dharma. Vijnana-maya, that is brahminical that you distinguish between the body and soul. The sastra, everything is according to that authority. In other words, there should be an elevation to it, not just the dharma, dharma should go further, you should go to self-realization. Ananda-maya, then one is always talking about devotional service. Devotee (1): That is the Vaisnava. Maharaja: That is the Vaisnava. Devotee (1): In our preaching we try to take people on a lower level of consciousness and preach to them you are not the body, ananda-maya as well and we tend to skip over the platform of religion. Should it be more gradual?

Maharaja: No, religion goes on right now. Religion you can introduce immediately. If something descends so what comes down first, the higher principle or the lower principle? Devotee (1): The lowest. Maharaja: How would it be the lowest, the lowest whats going on on ground zero. Descending means it starts from Krsna and then the principles behind the transcendence and then how that comes into the sastra in the material world that we understand that form of it, then the rules that are there, then the applications of it, then the application to whats going on now. So it is starting from the top and descending down how far it has to come. So it is always strong. Ascending knowledge means you start with the senses and then you try to get it up to there which it never can get. What happens is prana-maya is taken as religion. If someone goes out lets say into the forest and somehow or another they observe the peacefulness of the forest that comes from the natural laws of God being followed and they have an epiphany they will call that spiritual. All it was is they had is they had a very nice experience and noticed the environment of a human being in a forest which is the mode of goodness. Thats all. But that was a great spiritual experience and they might be able to go back and write so many books and give lectures and do so many things on. So they think it is spiritual but it is not. So religion has been dropped down to prana-maya. And then within that you call that spiritual. And so religion actually people dont really know. If anybody is successful in any area they have some understanding of the nature of the thing they are dealing with, thats why they are successful. Someone who understands the nature is successful, someone who doesnt doesnt. So when they give these self-help books they generally giving you different things about how to deal but they are not actually explaining the nature. Like they say be nice to Mr. Smith in your company and then he will work harder for you. Thats all the vaisyas are interested in so thats all what is in the book. But why should Mr. Smith respond because you are nicer to him? Because he is dependent. You are the vaisya he is the sudra therefore he is dependent. Therefore your pleasure means his prosperity. Therefore if you take care of him, you notice him because he is dependent therefore he will be more insecure so you notice him or his work or his facility he is going to feel more secure. Feeling more secure he works more. So does any management book explain that? No. Because they are explaining prana-maya, they are not explaining religion. Therefore management and social structure when we take it from these books it is not actually social structure. Otherwise why is it in dealing 20 years with these things a social structure hasnt been established? They cant. Because there is nothing to work with. And devotees arent that materialistic so they cant go to the root of the First World where you just put economics in the front. And for that economics therefore you have to have this justice and other things like this in place, otherwise the economics wont work. You can see that economics is the prominent thing otherwise why do they allow all the gambling, all these other things, intoxication, because thats the highest revenue that has come out of that. Therefore economics is the main. So their point is well do these activities that are technically immoral but they are part of the mleccha-social life, so as long as they dont go over the top and dont get extreme with it there will be no problem. As long as the guy only spends his extra money on gambling it is fine, but if he spends all his money then we also have to bring it within the prana-maya welfare agencies that help him get over his gambling, take care of the family. But they dont get rid of the gambling, because they dont deal with dharma. But a king his duty is to get rid of gambling, he does that then his kingdom will go nicely. Because if gambling is not going on

then the families will work fine because gambling means you are gambling something that you need for your family, it should be given in charity, it should be used in Krsna conscious activities, otherwise where do you get the money from. So it breaks down relationships, it breaks down your service, it breaks down the methods that you advance by. 5 levels of acquiring knowledge. They are connected and dealing with these same 5 levels. But now we are taking it how is the knowledge gained in there. Means the first one was the consciousness, but now that consciousness has a method to gain knowledge. Then you have pratyaksa, paroksa, aparoksa, adhoksaja, and aprakrta. Pratyaksa means the senses. Your consciousness is on the senses, and you gain your knowledge from the senses. The animals do this, they are on that platform, the scientists are on this platform. Oh sorry I didnt mean to mention them together. This platform is just the beginning stage of life. Means unless one goes above this it doesnt really serious. Human life starts at mano-maya, if its below mano-maya it is not human. Thats why the systems of ethics, morality and justice, if they are not coming from dharma they dont establish human society. Krsna consciousness goes with human society, therefore with varnasrama. To try to establish a social structure below that means you try to establish this high philosophy for animal life, may be sophisticated animal life but it is animal life. And then the difficulty comes is that in doing that because they are situated there then they want to reject human life, which means varnasrama, so those situated in animal life militate against varnasrama because that is human life. Then you have those means what we were talking about before if there is not the balance and you have those that are situated in mana-maya but if it is only the element of the rule part not the application part then they dont consider very nicely anyone in artha or kama. So in this way these two fight with each other. Paroksa means you are getting your knowledge from someone else, in other words someone elses senses you are getting the knowledge from them. Because the prana-maya is extended sense gratification. Means it is based on the senses. Means I get my knowledge hearing from the next door neighbour who thought, or they got it from their neighbour who thought, or however lengthy the parampara is. Aparoksa means it is experienced, it is not seen through the senses. So that means you perform your religious duties, it generates an experience. So thats how you gain that this was working. Adhoksaja means the Lord has descended into it, so that perception of the Lord in it. Because we can distinguish between matter and spirit. But here is that spirit we can distinguish, the Lords element in it, or the soul. In other words we can distinguish Brahman. And ideally we can discriminate grades of Brahman. Aprakrta means it is transcendental. There you are dealing with the transcendental mind and senses. So well discuss this more on Thursday, we get into detail on that, then we go into rasa and how rasa is situated in these five. (end of lecture) Devotee (1): Regarding the aparoksa, on the level of prana-maya lets say you feed a starving child its still experience, its not hear saying. Maharaja: Its there, so that aspect is aparoksa, but the point is the depth of it, means it is. Means aparoksa is that where the experience of it. Means in other words, its the unobserved. Because as soon as you go and turn to the friend and say, oh isnt this nice you are not

experiencing it any more because now it has gone to the intellectual where you are distinguishing, the mind is accepting or rejecting this is nice. So immediately it has gone to another platform. Devote (1): Each level of consciousness contains all the proceeding ones. Maharaja: Yes, but one should be aware of them. If one is not like you have people who are situated on this vijnana-maya but they dont necessarily consider other things, so they are insensitive to those. The best is if you understand them then you are willing to put some energy into that you may be transcendentally situated but others are not therefore understanding the nature of the conditioned soul they need things therefore you encourage them in a nice family life to take care, to do all these nice things but in such a way that it is according to dharma so that they get purified. Devotee (1): So in our preaching then that verse anudvega-kara vkya, means austerities of speech is not agitate anyones mind and simultaneously speak the truth. Thats one strategy for preaching is to actually not Maharaja: What is your definition of not disturbing? That is what I mean the liberals dont have any standards. Not disturbing means I am giving them straight Krsna consciousness in such a way that they can accommodate it. Not disturbing does not mean I do not talk about Krsna consciousness. Devotee (1): What about developing friendships Maharaja: But whats the purpose of that friendship? Why are you using friendships as a medium if it is not dynamic? If it is just friendship that means you want friendships. You consider those professionals something special, you want to be friends with professionals. You are just an average ho-hum mister john smith. And now these guys run banks if you can move with them it moves you up socially thats why you just want to be friends with them. A guy who is a professional walks in and just talks straight. A bank manager in Krsna consciousness and goes to another bank manager and says you run a bank, you got a good position you got good money, you are well-situated, everyone respects you but you are not happy. Yes. I know how you are going to be happy. You are not understanding and considering there is more beyond the money, the social position. Because you have it all, the material you all have, so there is something beyond. You are not catching the spiritual. A devotee will talk like that? No. But they talk like that. They are tip-toeing around because they dont actually know the nature of what they are dealing with. Professionals means they know how to deal with material energy, they know it has a nature and know how it works. So they just want to hear who they are and what their nature is. And devotees come in tip-toeing around, dont say youll disturb. Say it nicely but know the nature of it and get in there and what it is. Then you have your New Age. Then they are looking for experiences. But then these experiences dont last, they dont maintain, it is not something they can share with others because there is no way you create an external environment that you had that experience in but it doesnt necessarily create it for them so they dont even know how to generate that because there is no knowledge at all. It is only experience. The other guys have experience, means they have knowledge how to do the things but the experience they are getting from it is not what they are expecting. They expect something beyond. Therefore you talk to the New Ages in a slightly different way, they are experienced and all that, we want to create that sustainable experience but that can only come when we are talking with the soul. Because they can use all these words. A New Age can use every word that we have in our dictionary. They

have no problem with this. So where is this you cant talk straight the philosophy. New-age you can talk as straight as you want. And to the professionals down to earth. And your ho-hum man he just wants to be told straight also. But in simple language. The professional it needs to be something technical that he can understand that you understand the mechanics. And the common just wants to know what do I do. You are the servant of God you are not recognizing it so therefore God is not happy so how are you going to be happy. If you water the root of the tree then the whole tree is happy so you are not watering the root of the tree so you have to do service to God. You can say that to anybody. If we are sitting in front of them that means there is some interest especially if they have come to us, Prabhupada makes that point you go out you sell according to the market rate they come to you you set the price. So we make these places that people come to us and then they just tip-toe around. They dont mind. Do you think at a yoga club that they are having on the 33rd on the 6th floor over there and they meet Wednesday nights and do their yoga asanas. Would they mind if the person who is organizing it had some connection or friend who is a yogi form India and he came with a beard and long hair and robes, do you think that all those people who learn yoga would get upset? Then why would they get upset if we came in our dhotis and all that? Why, we are yogis. We wear bed sheets. Yogis like bed sheets. We are not saying they have to wear bed sheets then they might get upset. Because the point is even they have their concept. You can say they should be able to wear whatever they like. Ok they are doing the yoga asanas. What if someone comes in with a tight tank top and a jistring. Are they going to be happy? No because they developed that religion that yoga means the whole body and so they wear leatars. That is the yogic thing to do. Or it can be some kind of loose fitting, natural cloth of more natural colors, you can also get away with that. If you are coming in from that side that the other one is coming. But you couldnt wear some sparkly, you couldnt wear what Marilyn Monroe used to sing Happy Birthday to Elvis Presley. But it fits like a leatar. So it should go. But they wont go for, why? Because they themselves have already created a religion. So we are going into this thing and say dont talk religion but they already have one. They are looking for one thats why they are doing yoga. They are looking for religion. Because they dont actually know what yoga is. They formulize it outside externally and then we are happy to go on in that and think we have done a great job. Oh they are vegetarian. Big deal, so are the birds. They are taking prasada that is a big deal. But that they are vegetarian so what? If you use that as a medium to get to that that is there. But it is a medium and as quick as you can get through you will. I am slowing this business, take it slow like that, so maybe after 20 years I may make the investment and sell that thing. No, as quick as possible that you can make the investment and get the profit you will do it. As soon as there is an opening you go for it. Oh no dont say like that we cant say like that. No, do like this, say this: I cannot do that. I dont have the faith. I dont have the understanding. I dont have the skills to preach like that therefore because of my false ego I dont want anybody else to preach like that because that would mean that I am not first rate and I am American and I have to be first rate. Say that then Ill go ok. Yes I wont talk like that. But they say, well you know you cant, this is BS. New-age is something new to them. Therefore they are so enamored by it. Professionals are new to them therefore they are enamored by it. Those people from those kinds of families go right in and throw the weight around because they are not intimidated by them. Why does a celebrity like to be with a celebrity? Because they can just be relaxed. Or a wealthy man or a powerful man, those people in that position they move together because they can just be themselves, they can relax. They dont have all these people standing around. They dont want someone talking about spiritual life who is that either.

We are saying that so that one has the confidence. But the point is use words and examples and everything that they can understand and you move with the speed that they can do. Whatever they are taking emphasize that but that doesnt mean you dont try to get others done. They like the prasada then you get that happening. Then they dont read much you can give them tapes, listen to kirtans. Then slowly slowly other things will come. But it is not that they are only in the food so forget about the chanting, forget abou the philosophy. No, you find a way where that can come in also at the speed that is natural. But it is according to them not according to you. That is the difference is my talking to the other person and explaining Krsna consciousness is at the speed that they can take it not at the speed that I can give it. But here they are talking, oh you cant talk like that that means that it is based on me not on them. And then they are talking that they are very liberal and modern, that is very regressive. Progressive means I am dealing according to the others needs but what they are doing is dealing according to their own needs. I dont have the faith in that to actually deal like this. I go out in my bed sheets and I think people think I look stupid. And no one would want to look stupid and be part of that religion. Just because they see a priest out on the street doesnt make them I want to be a priest. No but they go up to him and ask him about things about God and their life etc. So everybody accepts that at least the brahminical order wears bed sheets. Every religion in the world their brahmanas wear bed sheets. In fact their own Deity wears bed sheets. They all wear bed sheets. So whats the problem with bed sheets. There is no problem with it. It is all in their own mind. Its their own conditioning, their own insecurities. And if they say no no people get and throwbut you dont dress nicely, they may have that but you deal nicely. Somebody sees the Dalai Lama for the first time Dalai Lama for the first time he may also think O I dont know about this but if the Lama deals with him nicely then he will go and tell I met the Dalai Lama today and he is a nice guy and we talked about karma so it is relationship. Therefore these people are impersonal because it is all based on themselves, they dont know how to work for others, they dont have that faith, conviction that drive therefore they cant do it. And then they are claiming no one else should do it because whatever they do is perfect. But it is still all about themselves, what happened to Krsna as the Self, not your mind and senses, your social position and security. We dont mind addressing that but understand what is the standard of that, what is real in these areas. These things dont fly. Prabhupada walked in he couldnt care less. He walks into the university of Stockholm in the 70s they are really big on equality. He goes in and whats his lecture on: varnasrama. And how does he even deal with saying the different levels of varnasrama. First class man, second class man, third class man, fourth class man. Now if that is not going to get under some university student skin. But that is how you get them to think. Otherwise he could talk love and peace and they go very nice and go away and nothing will change. But he goes in and says that. Then what does it generate? They heard all the knowledge, they heard all the logic it makes sense but they dont like it then they ask him but who are you. Then he says I am fifth class servant of the other four. Then bang he has got the whole audience. Thats preaching. Thats intelligent. This thing hiding behind something that they dont even know what it is. They describe that they are doing something universal everyone can relate to. The only thing everyone can relate to is God. Otherwise their background and this and that. Its like some of these people as a karmi I would never be their friend. I would never have anything to do with them. I would never do anything that they would do. And there is so many groups of devotees they would have to do with anybody else. And then they are going to say is, oh this is the

universal. Universal what, you are going out in your funky looking pants and not well matching shoes and shirt and you want to call that thats universal. If you say in the west what would a gentleman wear? The first things that comes to mind would be a suit. So thats the universal outfit. So I dont see them wearing that. Thats the universal, thats what Prabhupada had them wear. If you wear karmi clothes you wear a suit. Not saying that thats what has to be there but thats what I am talking about is the principle. Its accepted. Because even if they say we are trying to get it across. But how they go out isnt also impressive. I can remember two or three devotees that I can ever remember in karmi clothes that actually look decent. Very few dress nice. Devotee (1): Then one of the important aspects is that we dont want to waste time, wed rather focus. Maharaja: Yes, why waste your time, Lord Caitanya left Bengal because he has to tip toe around and they dont accept. So therefore He goes somewhere else. So if it is so difficult, you cant preach to anybody in America, pack up, over here, there is lots happening over here, we can use your help. Devotee (3): Regarding the process of preaching, basically the rules or attending are laid down already by the scriptures and the practice and the teachings and the learnings. And sometimes also we see apply it, the devotees have focus on the communities and congregation. Sometimes there is always activity there they become authority because they practice. In due course of time this community needs support of institution. Do they imagine something particular about the different aspects of seniorities in a sometimes overlapping this commission. Can you elaborate on the natural circumstances junior devotees having to eventually directly preach, or eventually yes, to apparently or practically or historically corrupted or deviated perception of what to do. Maharaja: Its like you have Yudhisthira, he is a ksatriya. You have Dhaumya who is a brahmana. Who is senior? Dhaumya is the senior. But who is managing the world? Yudhisthira. So these are concepts that are there in the Vedas. The Western it always got to be this very linear kind of thing. But in India all the Maths, the spiritual head is not the manager of the math. They have managers. They are generally grhasthas. Even Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura is like that. Hed have your spiritual leader in the temple and then you had your Math manager and he is generally a grhastha, hed come at nine oclock, leave at five oclock and this and that and do whatever he does, and the other ones are there all day. So this ability to balance these things. The difficulty comes is just the Western conditioning is so strong and they are so proud of it that they cant get passed it. The thing they keep is that Western drive, that Western desire for making something perfecting it. Thats to be kept. And any technique that they know that is useful thats to be there. But to keep that false ego and think because we are Western we are superior. That can be kind of detrimental. Devotee (3): But what about a devotee who helped found the pillars of this institution? Maharaja: So thats nice, but it goes both ways. Just as lets say you have a temple president. He is a junior devotee, he is not a Prabhupada disciple, lets put it that way. And in his community there are Prabhupada disciples and they established that place 30 years ago just before the Dinosaurs werent extinct, I am not sure whether Lincoln was shot at that time or not, but it was around then. Then they did all this kind of stuff. And since that time they have kind of

been preserving themselves from Aldehyde until now. And then somehow or another someone knocked over the bottle or from Aldehyde drained out and they are back again. So the point is they have done it, they established that, so they are respected for that. And so therefore who is the temple president then would respect that and theyd be given some considerations, social etiquettes and that is there. At the same time is that senior person he has to respect the authority of the temple president and his authority to make the arrangement. He cant just say because I am senior I walk in I do whatever I like. That is not respectful. It goes both ways. And it says according to Manu if by offering respect to someone they dont return it you dont have to respect them. So therefore all these so-called senior men if they wont respect you because you do have the position, you are the temple president, if they wont respect that, they themselves are unrespectable. So we dont have to deal with them technically. They can yell and scream, jump up and down, they are Prabhupada disciples, nice, but you are not acting like one. So therefore we cant deal with you like one. You come in say this and that, shriek your mouth off, so I am the authority here, so you cant come here. And even if you really want to have some real fun which I wouldnt pull out of the bag until it gets really nasty is that you say you are senior you have been around now for 40 years, how many years of that was active dynamic devotional service that you are doing the things that you claim that you are senior for? When did you leave? You left in 78 after Prabhupada did? Or you made it to 82, or you were with the big bang in 86. So that means you are around 12 years. Dont mind but this junior disciple that you are talking about he has been temple president here for 15 years. That means he has done more active dynamic service then you did by time. You can say you did more but you cant say that you have been around longer. And he hasnt left. He joined he is still here. You joined you left. Now you have come back after how many years? What was that 17 I heard? Yes. Devotee (3): Still it would be proper to address as you are doing. Maharaja: Means I would address them like that if they got out of the hand. But the other one generally they wouldnt. But at the same time they have the right to managerially say that they cant come to the temple or no one can deal with them. If they want to come for darsana and all that, thats fine, as long as you behave yourself. If you are not going to behave yourself you are not welcome here. You want to take darsana I give you a bus ticket you can go up to Chicago and take darsana there. But the point is there is that they cant take advantage. Part of the problem is that the present day devotees are afraid of these people because they are leaders, they are powerful. They just come in, they talk, people listen, so in this amount of time they can take over control of anything. Because they were trained by Prabhupada, they have that potency from that. That doesnt go away. Krsna even you leave Krsna consciousness He doesnt take away your opulences. So someone who was an expert speaker before they have been gone off for 20 years, when they come back they are still just as dynamic a speaker, or kirtana or whatever it is, they are still the same. Because those are just spiritual opulences they are not affected by time. So there are I would say many the reason it doesnt happen is because they afraid. You bring 4, 5, 6 of them back they take over. It doesnt matter you have 100 other managers, they run the show. At the same time is even if you had the sentiment that you wanted to do it because you can stir it up but you cant maintain it because those devotees that are trying to come back themselves will not follow any etiquette and their egos are bigger than Mount Kailasa. And so they shoot themselves in the foot that no one wants them because they are just such mentality-wise and character-wise are so regressive. They are just as a person not a nice person to be with. They criticize, they this, they that, they dont follow any proper

culture, anything like that. And their point is everybody has got to accept me for who I am. Who said? Who cares? So therefore if they would have the right attitude others should accept. So I am saying this two things has to go. So we see Hamsaduta comes back, he is humble, he has always been humble, but then they are afraid. Others come back and they are not humble and that freaks people out. So the point is both parties have to follow their part of the culture. And if they do that it will work. So in it you have to get the others to understand is, he says you may have started the yatra, you may have been trained by Prabhupada, thats important, but this kid here is the temple president. So you cant undermine. Because otherwise if you can undermine his things by politics he can undermine and it will be much easier to undermine you because you have been gone for a long time and you have got a history. So therefore five minutes he can undermine you. Youd have to do politics for weeks to get him. Therefore be smart. Understand who has got power. And when push comes to shove the GBC is going to support that kid not you. So therefore come in as a devotee, nice, humble and all that. You come in like that people will be coming to you and asking you dont have to go out. You can just sit down at one place and everything will come to you. But if you want it all you get nothing. Devotee (3):variety also devotees always will be there. Maharaja: Always will be there, but the ones that are the most dynamic are that ones that this etiquette has to be practiced by. Devotee (3): By coming into the fall of the person management lets say we also we would find adversity of moods and natures, the present devotee may also serving a particular need, inclination that was manifested in some managerial duties. Then the challenge also is for them how to relate to that not only in seniority in the aspect of Prabhupada disciple or whoever in the managerial aspect also they have responsibility Maharaja: But as authorities if you want this person to be involved then how much is the temple supposed to take care of them? They are living outside so then you give them service. They are living inside. Not that kind of thing. Devotee (3): I expressed myself a bit perhaps from it. I said within the society, members. Maharaja: Oh within the society, the main point is that the society means I mean its very clear where we are going, then Rupa Goswami is the head, there is the parampara coming down there. That comes down to us as Srila Prabhupada. Then he has given that authority, means he has his books, he has the GBC, then he has his structure. So as long as thats in place and thats encouraged then everything, thats the way it works, then it doesnt matter who is coming from where or anything like that. Devotee (3): I prefer also we practice constructive criticism, we are not trying to make politically correct certain issues. Although they may be junior, they are very intelligent and we dont know exactly where they come from previous life. Maharaja: Means the junior or senior? Devotee (3): The junior, the new generation, I am trying to understand their position of how they will sometimes accept radical statements about you can see there is no progressive about the preaching field and they prefer eventually to focus outside the society Maharaja: But that is basically kind of useless. Because the society is a mission, it has a mentality, it has a method. You follow you then technically you are in the society, you dont follow it technically you are not.

Devotee (3): No, no, if I am correct, because sometimes the society is still we are growing, its dynamic, we are recovering mistakes from the past, thats perfect, but also it could be found. This is just a speculation I heard devotees say there are so many difficulties. Maharaja: There are difficulties, but those difficulties were so long ago. They cant stand on that. When I am saying this I am simply talking about the etiquette between the temple authorities or the yatra authorities and those senior devotees who are not functioning within. That was what I was talking there. The position of those temple authorities if they are properly following things according to how Prabhupada would have established them thats another thing. Because the point is the big gurus disappeared 22 years ago. Most yatra were opened within some months and most people dont even know who Hare Krsnas are. So people dont even know about us. So you have a fresh start. Who has ever heard about Bhavananda, Ramesvara, who knows? Most devotees if Ramesvara walked up they wouldnt know who he is. In fact, someone told me thats what was happening. He came to one of the LAs, one of the Ratha-yatra, it may have been LA Ratha-yatra or something, and nobody knows who he is, its only some god-brothers know. And they are just dealing with him, oh can we help you here, this is a Ratha-yatra like that, LA was started by that, and he says kind of like yeah yeah ok. He was the guy that did it and he introduced him, oookay. Someone was just telling mean that just happened. Thats nice but the whole thing is but they have done that as service to Srila Prabhupada, not to be recognized and for position and facility and all that. Means the president he tries to fulfil that as much as possible if the other one is trying to not act on that platform that is dynamic. Because otherwise how is he going to take care of this guy with the big inflated ego that used to do something. But what is he doing right now? Its nice what you have done, thats eternally goes around. But we are talking about right now. So right now you are doing nothing. So therefore based on that he is the temple president, he is doing something, you are doing nothing, so now who is senior? But at the same time is you did do something, in fact you did properly even more than that temple president. And the reason the temple president has this whole community is because of the work you did. So therefore in that way it goes. That both have to have mutual respect. The whole point of the Vedic is mutual respect. The parent respects the nature of the child, the childness, therefore they deal with it properly. Because that childness has come from Krsna. Childness I dont know if it comes out, childishness, no it doesnt work, putratva, the inherent nature of the child, that is God. Therefore they respect and deal with it properly, but at the same time they are the parent, the child respects them for that. Thats the thing the Vedic is both respect each other. Devotee (3): Does it reflect to you were talking about the other day about reflecting the ignorant nature. Maharaja: So if you respect that you reflect that, so whatever those good qualities in that person who is senior youll reflect those, youll gain those yourself. But if you criticize then youll get those because thats whats on the mind, by association. Association means whats in the mind. Because Manu mentions association doesnt mean that you sat next to them or did something with them. Association means that you accept their nature or associate with their nature. So its positive you get the positive, negative you get the negative. Thats why means even someone is good you should associate with the good part of it. But if not, technically speaking the devotees who criticism is their occupation they actually do a great service to other devotees because they take on their sins in those areas they criticize. So in that way they

have done us a service. They have criticized us and said so many things but we become purified by that. So thats the point. Its just like in the Vedic, its not that the person wears a particular outfit, does his particular thing that you know that this person is being punished. One it keeps him in the mentality, so he knows and keeps him humble. But it also helps him because those persons that arent actually of good standard will criticize and that will purify him also. But if it wasnt seen he wouldnt get the benefit of that purification. But that purification will come anyway because someone will criticize you for something else. The whole thing is very dynamic and if its understood then it can be dealt with very, very pleasantly and personally and all that. But if its not then you can try to find that way to explain it that way but the truth is very strong, very straight-forward. But if you can present it, that straight-fowardness in a pleasant way. Thats what your point was is the straight-forward element can be presented in a pleasant way. Like Prabhupada was talking to this feminist journalist about the shaved heads and all this, and he says why arent your legs not covered, and so Prabhupada at the end said better a cool head and warm legs. But because cool head its accepted, its using a phrase that that everyone will say yes he has got a cool head. By saying that then it throws it into a thing where you think its correct but at the same time its funny and she had nothing more to say. So he said what he wanted directly but he said it in a very pleasant way. Thats the secret. The person has got the attitude that he can handle it then you may be more strong and direct if its necessary. But you start off softer, that doesnt work then you go harder and harder and harder. Like punishment you just tell them this is wrong to do. They dont do it, next time you get strong with them, next time there is some punishment. So because of the comfortness, because of the commitment, because of the faith, because of the sense of mission that the devotees had especially back you could say in the 70s and early 80s therefore they would talk very straight, very rough but very to the point because they were also from New York but it was based on their commitment and faith, so it wasnt wrong. Because it worked in those days. It also would create some feelings and all that, it may not be able to use now, that commitment thats the thing. So its throwing out, oh no we cant talk like that. No, it is you can talk like that. Means the point is what was being talked was they were expressing their faith and commitment. That you have to talk. Maybe that presentation isnt ideal. But all you do is change the presentation but you dont change the mood. But what they are doing now is changing everything. Because they have changed the mood therefore the presentation has changed. Oh we cant do like that therefore they change, so its still going on the mood. So even themselves or they are thinking I am going from this external to this external because thats all they see but in reality which is the unseen that they dont know is they are going from the internal to the internal. If felt bad I spoke like this, I feel bad now presenting like this so that felt bad was presented like this, so this feeling bad means I cant present it like that. So it still goes back its all about them. The lady walked out of the room in the class, did the temple president or anyone there that was concerned catch her and talk to her and find out what was the real problem? So therefore do they really care about that lady walking out the room or is it simply supporting their own ideas of what modern preaching is. Otherwise that lady could have walked out of the room because she had an appointment at some place and so it just happened to go inside there, it could have been. It could have been whats being talked about and the personal relationships is exactly what she wants but no one, she has never seen it anywhere and that gives her pain and so she doesnt want to talk about it, not that its not a subject that she doesnt like, and thats why she left. But they didnt talk, they dont know.

So therefore whats the basis of their thing? Their faith that you can only talk like this. They are just noticing that there is New Age people and starting to talk to them. I have seen Ramesvara back in the 70s and 80s talking to these people very successfully. There has been devotee who can deal with this for a long time. Because they knew it existed. But these others its the first time they have bumped into it. So its a matter of that faith and commitment, youll find a way. Oh you cant talk like that. Maybe you cant, but what are you doing that you are getting the same effect as before, where are the people joining? So you are not getting the effect. You think just I came out, said something, it was there, and ok thats nice. But what about changing peoples lives? Thats what we are here for. So you change their life and you may use various mediums that are attractive to them. Ok you want to use yoghurt, great. But change your life dont just teach them how to do some asanas and make some money and thats it. So if thats how you are going to maintain, but then say its your occupation, dont say its your preaching. I run a yoga studio, I make money off it, I maintain my family, I am able to give something to the temple. Say that, thats nice, thats great. I run a bakery, I sell donuts, great. And because they were devotees there is a touch of preaching in it but its not really a preaching field. But to say you run a yoga studio and you made some money and thats it then how is that preaching? Acyutananda went out in Kumbha-mela, he had his kamandulu and his danda, he would go up to, he would see the city people, the worthy gentlemen, he would come up to them and basically like this and he touched them on the head and then hold his pot and some put money in it, or they didnt put so much money he pushed a little harder on their head and they gave something more until they have the right amount of donation. And so he did that all day, he came back and then they devotees say wow Prabhupada, Acyutananda he collected so many thousands of rupees and all that, and he says yes but what preaching? There was no preaching done. So Prabhupada wasnt impressed. Ok he got money. But what if he had spoken something to them and then, they might have even gotten more. So the point is we understand time, place and circumstances but they talk straight. How is it that they talk in Russian in the communist countries or in China where its not allowed to talk Krsna consciousness but there they are making devotees by talking straight Krsna consciousness. So in America there is a rule no Hare Krsnas? So what is stopping us? Thats the thing. The only ones stopping us is us. Prabhupada said there is nothing from outside that can destroy this movement. So there is nothing they can do they can stop it. Maybe this person doesnt like but those ten people did. So thats the point. So now if you can figure out how to catch that one person also thats better. But to say because that one person walked out therefore I wont preach to these other ten thats kind of a bit useless. Devotee (4): You mentioned this so-called old religious, sometime between devotees happened like this. They may distribute their own religious a little bit covered. Why it is happening? How to deal with such devotees? Sometimes they are old devotees. Maharaja: Generally its just deal with those devotees that you have friendship or influence with and just make that strong. And because this other thing is weak it will fall apart with time and make whatever you are doing strong and. (end) September 25, 2008 Maharaja: 5 levels of acquiring knowledge

Pratyaksa will be getting it through your own senses. Paroksa will be gaining it through someone elses senses. So we see the similarity between anna-maya as the senses and prana-maya as extended sense gratification. In other words, your senses and someone elses senses. Aparoksa that would be what is not dealing with the senses, in other words, what is experienced. When you performing an activity there is an experience there, that experience that is aparoksa. By the proper performance of your duties the aparoksa element is increased. You do something not so well the experience you get is not so good, you do something well the experience is very good. Since people are actually doing things for the experience, therefore the better you perform your duties the better the experience. That is why the Vedic culture talks so much about the proper performance of duties, because then the experience that you are looking for will be the best that there is, the best that it gets. But the idea is doing that for oneself is not so important, doing it for others that is more important. That means if you are doing it for someone else then you can have a proper relationship. If you are doing it for yourself then it is not a relationship you are simply using people. You dont think I have a relationship with my pen, there technically is, but that doesnt come to mind. But if it is a person then you think of relationship, that means that dealing with people should be different than dealing with things. It is a better consideration. If you deal with people like things then what is going to be the experience? You have your pen, you work with it and it goes nicely and you get a certain experience, there is a satisfaction, would you just want that much satisfaction in your personal dealings with other people? Its so great whenever I am with you I feel just as if I am using my pen. It is so nice to go home and be with the family it is just like when I am with my pen. I am sure your mother will really get off on that one. Oh thank you son that was the nicest thing anybody said to me. The father will be thinking pen, its a tool for writing, so is my son calling me a tool? So what does he think because he is a tool therefore I am a tool. No but maybe he is a tool. How does this work? Is that how you want your relationships? No. So then that means if you are going to have a relationship with another person that means if you want that relationship to work you have to be considering the other person. If you have a subject and an object then what connects them? Devotee (1): Verb. Maharaja: The verb. The verb is being applied by who? Devotee (2): The subject. Maharaja: On who? Devotee (2): The object. Maharaja: If you are going to get a result can that application of the verb be in any way you like? Devotee (2): No. Maharaja: Because what is if you apply the way you use the verb for a different object? Like my pen on your brother. It might work. So it wont work. The application of the verb must be according to the object. You are one subject but the objects you deal with is so many. So therefore how you are going to deal with your locker, and how you are going to deal with a bucket, and how you are going to deal with your ball, how you are going to deal with your mouth there is going to be some slight difference. Though at the same time they all accommodate something. There is a communality. You dont have a door on your mouth that

you have to open when you eat. I am sure your mother wishes she did have one because then you have that little thing there you can put the lock on. But thats not there. In other words, it is different even though there is that element of filling something. So technically the verb is the same you fill your locker with clothes, the bucket with clothes, you fill your ball with food and your mouth with food. There is some communality here but because the object is different therefore the application of that verb is different. So what does that mean? Devotee (3): We have to understand the nature of the object to apply the activity, the verb. Maharaja: To do that requires what kind of attitude? Devotee (4): Sensitivity Devotee (2): Submissive Devotee (5): Humility Devotee (6): Sense control. Maharaja: And then the one that we just mentioned, one of the elements of the topic here? Devotee (7): Sacrifice. Maharaja: Sacrifice means it is for the other persons benefit. If it is for my benefit then the dealing with the other party is not going to be as committed and as sensitive, humble and all these good qualities as if it is for their benefit, or for someone elses benefit. Therefore, logically, if you want to have good relationships that must be the consideration. That means you are not focusing on your own senses, if you focus on your own senses then it is going to be pratyaksa or paroksa, or anna-maya and prana-maya. But if the duty is performed for anothers benefit or for someone elses, for Krsnas benefit then only can it be aparoksa. Only devotees can actually come to that platform of aparoksa, even impersonalists cant obtain that platform because they are still doing it for themselves. It is only by the Vedic concept of duty that a quality-relationship is experienced, because varnasrama means the experience of relationships. Thats whats going on. You are interacting with other people. The brahmanas and their interaction with brahmanas, ksatriyas, vaisyas and sudras. Ksatriyas with brahmanas, ksatriyas, vaisyas, and sudras. The vaisya with the brahmana, ksatriya, vaisya and sudra. The sudra with the brahmana, ksatriya, vaisya sudra. But to do that you have to know who you are and that has to be the rules set, why are those rules, because they have a nature. The king just won some battle and now the country is save, everything is great. Afterwards then there is a musical performance. And in that he is also happy because he is with close friends, he also decides to sing something. But whats the occasion? Devotee (5): Music performance. Devotee (6): Celebration. Maharaja: Celebration, he is celebrating his victory. Now lets say after the singing or the next day, now that main musician who sang at the celebration what would be appreciate being praised for? Devotee (4): His performance. Devotee (6): His singing. Maharaja: His performance, his singing. Now the next day you meet the king what does he want to be praised for? Devotee (2): Winning the war.

Maharaja: Winning the war. Not that he sang nicely. You are such a great king you sang so nicely last day. But it was the same situation. So if you dont know this you might say the wrong thing. If you tell the musician its so nice that you could come to the kings celebration, we really appreciated you being here, thats nice. But if you told him that was a great performance hed be more happy. Or the king you could tell him that was nice singing and all that so besides being a great administrator and wise and a warrior that you won this battle and made your kingdom safe you are also great in all the fine points of human life and you also can sing, what a wonderful king. So its just opposite. So without varnasrama how do you know this? Who created humans? Devotee (5): God. Maharaja: Who gave the knowledge of what is human life and what they expect how they live? Devotee (5): God. Then could we take the Vedic literature on human nature which are called the dharma-sastras, we can them as authoritative on what is human life, human need and human endeavour? Devotee (5): Yes. And then what will you get from that? By the proper performance of duties what do you get in relationship to this topic? Devotee (3): You please God, so you develop relationship with God. Devotee (5): Good experience. Maharaja: Good experience. So why is it a good experience? Devotee (6): Its the nature of the soul to serve. Maharaja: Its the nature to serve. Devotee (5): We did our duty as a sacrifice to others. Maharaja: Yes, as a sacrifice to others. And then we have the example is that if you have a tree what happens if you want to benefit the tree and water the leaves? It doesnt work. You have to water the root. If I perform my activities as sacrifice for others but in that that is the sacrifice for Krsna, so that means by doing that the Lord is happy and if the Lord is happy then everybody is happy. So that means if you really want to be happy what do you have to do? Sacrifice for the Lords pleasure. The principle of sacrifice is important: The devotees know it is for Krsna and the devotees. The materialist just knows that I have to do that because then I get the better benefit: one I get pious activities and two the experiences of this world will be better. Therefore even the Vedic materialist is better situated as far as materialism than the modern materialist because he knows how to perform activities as a sacrifice This experience that we are looking for is found through the proper performance of our duties. We say religious duties so when we say religious duties what comes to mind? Devotee (4): Piety. Devotee (5): Doing it for Krsna. Maharaja: But how do you define whats a religious duty? Devotee (6): According to sastra. Maharaja: According to sastra. So then does that mean what category of duty is that, if we say religious duty what category is that? What activities in the day would be connected with this?

Devotee (4): Sadhana. Devotee (6): Everything. Maharaja: Everything. This is actually the point. When I say religious duty generally a devotee will think my sadhana and everything else is not religious duty. But as pointed out here everything has a nature. Religion is the English word for dharma. Dharma means the inherent nature of something. Therefore everything we know has an inherent nature. Dealing with the inherent nature that we are contacting that is religion, the inherent nature done according to what is appropriate. So then we see is that without a doubt we establish that unless you follow the Vedic literatures technically what is one going to gain if one doesnt follow them? Not so much. In the West they are so much talking about how its important the freedom and that, how many people are getting what they talk about? How many people have that fancy car and all the different things that everybody is looking for? How many have that nice relationship, have a complete family, have good relationships in that family? Have money what they want, have clothes, have the facilities, have the position, have the respect? It is not there. Because it cant be. Because the principle of working for others based on their actual nature is not known. If you dont know it how you are going to do it? It is not like when the kid is born it comes with instructions, tied onto his foot is this book. Aparoksa is the experience one gains. Anything you do you gain an experience, but if the experience is full it will only be there because you follow the Vedic tenets. Otherwise it cant be because then you are not addressing the actual nature of something. Only when you address that can you properly interact, will your actions proper and therefore will your experience be proper. Then we see according to Saunaka Rsi then that the attitude is even more important than that. Therefore the sacrifice, this principle of niskama, then it takes it to another level. Then more important than that is devotion, then it comes to bhakti. So what is Krsna recommending? Devotee (4): Bhakti. Maharaja: Bhakti, and how does Krsna recommend this bhakti to Arjuna? Devotee (7): Perform your duties Maharaja: So that means then you are proper performing then the experience you are getting will be full. In the performance of the duty what are other considerations? Devotee (8): Detachment from the results. Maharaja: You are performing the activity you are detached. Now according to manana what is another element that must be there when you are performing an activity? Devotee (9): Always remembering Krsna. Maharaja: That will be even a higher one, that will be the next stage. But in performace of duty if you perform an action what must go along with action? Devotee (10): Knowledge Maharaja: Knowledge, intelligence. So therefore perform your duties with knowledge, with detachment, then thinking of Krsna and for Krsna. You can think of Krsna but its not for Krsna. Devotee (9): What is this knowledge? Is it knowledge that I am not the doer?

Maharaja: No, that is part of it. That is the metaphysicalthe main would be the knowledge of just how the activity is done. Where do you get that knowledge from except from authority. Because otherwise you can only work out so much yourself. Devotee (1): So it would be the knowledge on the level of never forget Krsna? Maharaja: Knowledge means never to forget Krsna because all those things that catch your attention on the material platform must be connected to Krsna. So there is the activity itself that can be very absorbing but then how do you perform that activity. What is the science and art of that activity? That being done properly then you get the best result. If it is just coming from somebody who is only working out experience then over a long time they work out something. How many recipes are there that come out of the European experience over the last so many years? Not a whole lot. There are some. How many kinds of preparations are there? There is quite a bit. But how much is there in the Vedic? It is so much greater. And what you can do with these things is so great also. Why? Because it is based on authority. The other one is based on experience. It is coming from the art. I apply the art, I am smart I observe it, I see pattern so I start to see the science. But now if we get the science from authority, from the scriptures, so much better, so much quicker. So this aparoksa will be gained when we are engaged in the activity itself with the proper knowledge, that is when the greatest experience is gained. If we are worried about the result if thats the only motive then one may either become frustrated because ones not getting it, or one may be very insensitive because one will force trying to get a result from an improper action. I am trying to cut the lemon and I am using a lemon squeezer. It might not get the result we want. So one has to be able to catch these things, they are very logical, they are very simple, they are very straight-forward. But in contact with the modes of nature it becomes a little complicated. And in this complication therefore people get bewildered. So the Vedic idea is you wont get bewildered because this platform is the platform of emotional rasa. Since its the platform means if you dont perform the activity properly the emotional experience you want to get you wont have. You may get some observable results but you wont get the emotions you want. If you dont get the emotions that you want then you will find that the whole experience wasnt as good. That is why it must be according to authority, so aparoksa means it is being done according to religious principles. Even if you deal with artha and kama it is done according to religious principles. Devotee (12): Is this karma and jnana together? Maharaja: Yes, that is the Fifth Chapter of Bhagavad-gita. Devotee (12): What gives juice is jnana? Maharaja: If you are in jnana-yoga thats the juice. If you are in karma-yoga, thats not the juice. Or if you are in bhakti-yoga thats not the juice. Devotee (12): If we do something with a proper understanding that when we add understanding then we get the real benefit, and experience. Maharaja: You get the benefit but thats not necessarily the juice. You get the experience, the experience that will more be the juice. Because juice is according to your definition. Some person is climbing Mount Everest and it is freezing out there, he is getting some juice from it. What is that juice? Its the experience. Someone else they have been outside, they had to get out of their car and walk to the house and it is cold and windy and snowy and when he gets inside the house where it is nice and bright and warm then he gets the juice. He goes to the

refrigerator takes out a box pours a glass. In other words, it is according to your perception what it is that gives that but the point is the experience is the same. So the man sitting in front of his fire place with a nice fire on a really cold day he is getting that same satisfaction and experience as the man freezing his toes off on Mount Everest. So thats the point is that that is gotten. Now the quality of that that what you have that you can work with. So if it is according to the Vedic directions it will be higher. If you are considering the nature of something that means that you understand the science, it will be better than if you dont. It will be more consistent, it is something that you can recreate because you know what you are doing, otherwise it will be just by chance it happened. Then if you have actually learned that science from the Vedas then it will be even more complete because then you understand in connection with the creation and everything about you. Then if you understand it in connection with the proper performance of duties and all that, with the right attitude that goes along with it. Because he has always mentioned, there is the action that gives a result and there is the attitude. You always have to consider those two. If the attitude is correct then you get even a better result, in other words, its according to naiskarmya and all these things. But even better than that is if it is connected to God. If it is connected to God that gives the highest. So this element of aparoksa you have the choice of what you want to experience. If you reject the Vedic then you have already dropped it down to the lowest of these two. Then if you are intelligent and educated in a particular area you might be observant enough to actually deal with it a little properly and get something out of it. But it wont come to the emotional platform, you will only be able to deal with result. Therefore in the modern it is all about result because what do they get out of it? Friends are sitting around together. Somebody goes, I am bored lets do something, but if they were friends why are they bored? They are friends, they have a relationship, it is alive, it is dynamic. They would just be happy being with each other because they have a relationship of friendship and that friendship itself will generate the rasa, but it is not. Why? Because their relationship is based on obtaining some object, lets go to the movies, lets go for a drive, or lets go out and roll some drunks, lets do something. Therefore their experience is very meagre. But if you follow the Vedic principle then friends have so much that they can do and then you actually taste that. This is the whole point: The senses are engaged properly, the emotions are engaged properly, the devotion is engaged properly, then you taste very clear rasa. The difficulty is if you are not dealing on the level of aparoksa, you are not on the emotional platform, therefore the emotional rasa will be very minimum. If you are situated in the sensual you can get that but it is very temporary. Unless it is based on dharma you will it expand, how will the artha expand the experience because the emotions are more important for your experience. Because aparoksa, as soon as you are focusing on it it doesnt exist. If you think about it and experience you are not experiencing the experience. You experience thinking about the experience. So what does that mean? The present is the thinking and the experience is in the past, means it is not happening now. What does this mean? What is this very subtle point being made here? As soon as you think about the experience, this is nice, I dont have it any more. But I can experience it without being absorbed in it. Because what are you trying to do when you focus on the experience and go this is nice, what are you trying to do? Devotee (1): You analyze it. Maharaja: Yes, you are analyzing it, so what is your purpose of analyzing it? Devotee (13): To get the result of analyzing it.

Maharaja: If you get the result, but who is the result for? Devotee (8): Yourself. Maharaja: Your result, you go wow this is nice. When you are performing the duty in the proper way you are getting the experience. Who is the experience for? Devotee (8): Someone else. Maharaja: Someone else. This is the nature of rasa and the nature of the soul. The soul cant be the enjoyer because as soon as he is the enjoyer it is in the past, its in ignorance. It can only be in the present, in the mode of goodness, if it is being done according to the nature with the attitude that it is for someone elses benefit, there is sacrifice. So proper performance of ones duties in the mood of sacrifice only then one is happy. Devotee (5): Can we understand this that the soul is not atma-rama? Maharaja: The soul is not atma-rama, technically in the bigger picture you can say yes. Because atma-rama is the masculine position of being satisfied in oneself. Only Krsna can do that, the energy is dependent upon the energetic. It is not satisfied in itself, it can only be satisfied in its connection to the energetic. When it is properly connected to the energetic then it is satisfied. Then you can say that is atma-rama. Because then the atma is situated in its proper position, but it is in connection with the Lord and not on its own, that wont happen. Because the living entity thinks they are purusa therefore they are trying to become atmarama. But we cant be atma-rama, we can only be atma-rama as servant of Krsna, and the soul is engaged in its proper position. Devotee (14): Why are the impersonalists called atma-rama? Maharaja: They are trying to do it. Why is it that the big fancy executive flying around and staying in the big hotels is called an enjoyer? Because that is what he is trying for. Why is the business man called business man because that is what he is trying for. Or the person is a musician because that is what he is trying for. Whether they are successful or not that is a whole other story. Devotee (9): What if we analyze the situation and appreciate how nice it is for them? Are we still in the present? Maharaja: What action are you doing? You are appreciating! If you are appreciating something where does it put it in sambandha, abhidheya and prayojana? Devotee (5): Abhidheya. Maharaja: Abhidheya, means you are doing something. So if you are appreciating Devotee (9): Prayojana, the result Maharaja: So then you are appreciating prayojana. So what is happening at the moment? Devotee (2): Sambandha. Maharaja: Sambandha, because as soon as it is attained it moves to sambandha. So in other words, it is the experience that is important, you got the thing, but it is the experience that is important, not the thing, the thing immediately moves to sambandha. You want something, it is that need, that feeling of want that drives you, not the thing itself. You think it is the thing, but it is the need for it. It is the need for it that is driving you not the thing itself. Because as soon as you get it you have another need. If that would have fulfilled everything and would have been the end, the goal you would be satisfied but you are not. So in other words, need is driving you, desire is driving you. But the point is it is driving

you but that is not enough you have to know what you are doing, you have to have the proper knowledge and then perform the activity otherwise you dont get the result Devotee (6): How is ones own experience tasted by another? Maharaja: By explaining it, that is your paroksa. You explain yeah we were there and it was really nice, oh how is it nice, and then you explain. Its the conversation is going well you will be either explaining or they are asking questions or somehow or another getting to the point where they appreciate what it is you experienced because they find something common enough that they can actually experience it themselves. If you cant explain it and they dont know how to ask questions then the relationship doesnt happen, therefore it doesnt end up as paroksa. Because you didnt gain something from them. It was just engaging the senses, so it was just pratyaksa, even that you experienced that they said something but you didnt understand what they said. Therefore there is less satisfaction, the sensual gives less than the emotional. Everyone talks about the sensual because they think that is where it is coming from. But you are using the senses but the use of the senses is to gain rasa. So the sensual is the lowest, the emotional is higher and the devotional is the highest. People focus on the senses and they get it and are happy temporarily, but then with time they see they are not happy, then the focus becomes on the emotional. Devotee (6): Ones experience is for another how is what is offered who is the experience given to the other? Maharaja: Means that you are performing the activities that are according to their nature, so they are going to get an experience from that. You are also going to get an experience from that. So thats the commonality. Your perspective on it may be different but the principle there is a communality thats there. Devotee (4): Aparoksa is realization then? Maharaja: Aparoksa is it realization? That is more experience. You could probably say Adhoksaja is more realization. Because remember mano-maya its aparoksa. And Adhoksaja that will be vijnana-maya. So you get knowledge you develop skills. From that practice you will get realization. The dharma is being performed, you are engaged in the artha and kama properly, that will give moksa. But your central feature is the aparoksa. You put in on pratyaksa or paroksa then you lower your standard, then it doesnt necessarily move forward very well. Thats why in the Vedic they are talking about all this as a package. Yudhisthira talks about the performance of the religious duties. Then Saunaka says, he doesnt disagree but he says that there are fools who only do that, only perform their religious duties without the proper knowledge. Then he points out that the material world is not so important, therefore if you are performing your religious duties with the idea that the material world is important that is a fool. Therefore the religious duties have to be performed with the proper qualities, the proper attitude and the proper motives. In other words, your philosophical perspective and your culture must be right. Then the proper performance of duties is fruitful. So you have proper duties, proper attitude and proper understanding. So Krsna is saying perform your duties, so that is according to sastra. With knowledge, without desire for result, that is your knowledge and proper attitude. So the activity is being done with the proper knowledge and attitude. So now the activity is complete. But at the same time what is the use of that if it is not connected to bhakti. An activity is useless if it doesnt give you the proper result, the proper result you get by the proper performance of duties. Proper performace of duties become useless if your attitude and knowledge is not right. In the same way the activity itself with all that is useless if it is not

connected with Krsna. Therefore you remember Krsna. I remember Krsna I dont do it for Him. No. I remember Krsna and do it for Him. Or I am doing it for Krsna I dont remember Krsna so therefore it becomes mechanical. So I remember Krsna and I do it for Him. What am I offering Him? I offer to Him properly performed duties, which means they are done with the right attitude, sacrifice and knowledge, then it is complete. Then it becomes very, very clear, very simple. So then what are we doing? We are trying to learn what are our duties, what is the proper way to perform them, we are practicing them. Like you have a pump, you have water, you have the pump platform, then you have motion, you have knees. So then if you understand all these things properly then you can slide about 30 feet. But you also have the factor into that sliding that bumping into other people may not be according to their nature. Of course ultimately if you do it long enough then they do move to another pump. So if that was your purpose so now you can slide 40 feet then maybe it was intelligent. Devotee (4): Adhoksaja is also experience? Maharaja: You are getting experience in all of these. But the point is adhoksaja is there in everything, but it is how you gain your knowledge. Through experience, through others or directly from your senses. The sense gone into the sense objects I am getting that, so this is going on now. But the actual experience of that. I am tasting something it is sweet. That sweet now do I consider that nice or not? That is the adhoksaja. I am getting the experience from the other, but what is that experience, that experiencing it? That is adhoksaja. The full manifestation of adhoksaja means according to the proper religious duties being performed in devotional service. Devotee (1): Aparoksa is performing the duties with knowledge and detachment for others. Then thats one level. But the person whom we are performing for, the reciprocation from there, that we get another level of experience, that will be adhoksaja? Maharaja: No, adhoksaja means Krsna enters into it. Krsna descends into it. Krsna descends into the proper performance of duties with knowledge. It is the knowledge of how everything is functioning, so those last chapters of the Gita, that is describing Adhoksaja, how Krsna enters whatever is in this creation. Seeing that along with the proper performance of duties is giving you a higher. Devotee (4): The experience that the gopis have when they look at the tamal tree and they remember Krsna, is that adhoksaja? Maharaja: No, that is aprakrta, aprakrta means it has nothing to do with the material energy. The first 4 you are dealing with the material energy. Are you doing it simply on the sensual platform, or what you have heard from others, or the experience you get yourself from proper performance of duties, or through proper knowledge of the position of the soul, the Lord, the material energy, how those energies are functioning, what is the relationship of those. In other words, the one is the skill in performing the activity and the other is the actual potencies behind it that make that work. The father knows how to deal with the son, that skill according to dharma is generating your aparoksa. But knowing that it is actually from the universal form: that fatherness and that sonness is there and how that is working, then they see Krsna in it, that is Adhoksaja. Aprakrta means from that you think of Krsna with Nanda Baba. Devotee (4): Adhoksaja will then be within dharma? Maharaja: It is always based on dharma. It is your foundation, you start in dharma. From that you are going to go that direction. That is what Bhagavatam says: Dont use dharma for artha and kama, that comes on its own. Use dharma for getting out of the material world and

establishing yourself in love of Godhead. Getting out of the material world means the moksa, means the way you gain that is through adhoksaja. (end of lecture) (end) September 26, 2008 Maharaja: Adhoksaja means where the Lord enters into the Creation, He comes down to this. The universal form He has entered into everything. Therefore we are acquiring knowledge through understanding how Krsna has entered into the creation. So in this process this is its natural place, if one is performing religious duties he will come down as far as that, but thats as far as he will go, he does not go down to into paroksa or pratyksa. Pratyaksa and paroksa through the performance of religious duties one can then see the Lord in those elements. In other words, the natural position of the Lord in the universe, in dont mean our Deity, but through this method of acquiring knowledge, then is on the platform of Brahman, that is the vijnana-maya. But he will extend down to mano-maya, because in mano-maya we have the performance of ones duties according to scripture, and so therefore according to scipture the Lord will enter that. Below that in the artha and kama, your anna-maya and prana-maya, if those are connected to dharma then you can find Krsna in it, if its not then it will be very difficult. So through that medium, the dharma becomes the essential feature. So its through the performance of ones duties one can gain all the other perceptions. That is why it is always the first thing that is there perform your duties. Like for the brahmacari what is the first instruction he gets? Devotee (1): To study the scripture. Devotee (2): He starts to go and get wood for the yajna. Maharaja: Yes, so he says do your work. The first thing is do your work. Be pure through the acamana, do your work, have the right attitude. Devotee (3): Never sleep in the day. Maharaja: That is later, but one of the first ones or the first one is do your work. Because if you do your duties from that everything else you can gain. If you dont do your duties then there is nothing to gain, only when something is moving you can get something from it. If there is no movement nothing is gained. Aprakrta means that its beyond the material perception, it is spiritual, transcendental. This platform means that it is transcendental understanding. Pratyaksa means through the senses you are gaining knowledgeParoksa means through others senses you are gaining knowledge, you are hearing from othersAparoksa means it is experienced through the proper performance of activityAdhoksaja means you are seeing the Lord and understanding the Brahman element of whats going on, these last chapters of Gita, Eleventh Canto, Second Canto, even Third Canto, all these are describing how the Lord has entered and how He is controlling it and how everything is functioning Devotee (3): Aprakrta can be considered on the stage of prema? Maharaja: Not necessarily, it can be even bhava because it is spiritual. Because the anandamaya platform for us means that relationship with Godhead in rasa, but it can also mean being factually situated on the Brahman platform of existence and the happiness gained from that, but that would be the lowest available happiness on ananda-maya. And the highest would be interacting with Krsna. So in the same way we would have to count the platform of bhava also in this aprakrta because it is transcendental, one is not conditioned, one is not on the bodily platform, one is dealing with spiritual subject matter. It is just a question of realization within that. The higher form would be prema, lower form would be bhava.

Devotee (4): Is bhava a kind of tatastha? Maharaja: Bhava is tatastha or junction or sandhi, it is between conditioned and prema because it has elements of both: It is connected with the transcendental you are working on the spiritual platform but it is not necessarily that one cant fall from that platform. One is spiritually situated but one can still fall from there. Therefore it is not prema, it is not nitya. Even if one doesnt fall from there one wouldnt remain there, one would move forward to prema. So it is an in-between position. Devotee (5): Could you say not for aparoksa its knowledge acquired from guru, sadhu and sastra and then to act upon that knowledge? Maharaja: Yes, it would have that, but it would also have the element of just the experience gained from applying that knowledge. Because its just like you have that knowledge, then means its more you are talking about acquiring, but its also the experience here. The other is the consciousness then there is the experience or the method. So one is performing ones proper duties and that, thats coming in mano-maya anyway but then having performed the duty how to you decide that this duty is nice or that it is not nice? You like following the Vedic rules or you dont, how do you understand that. Devotee (5): So its almost nidhi-dhyasana at that point that you realized that you like doing the duty, you will do it again. Maharaja: You could say, but you could still even there is an understanding but it may not be as deep, it may be, oh this is interesting, this is nice. So the range of the aparoksa can be very broad. But at least the beginning is your experience of it. Devotee (6): Can adhoksaja be achieved by an intellectual effort? Maharaja: Your jnana-yoga would be an element there but it can only be done by devotional service because the Lord enters into is. Technically speaking if you are not a devotee you never get off the pratyaksa and paroksa platform. You are never actually situated anywhere else. Only the devotee can be situated in these other places. Because if you are not a devotee you are motivated. If you are motivated then you wouldnt be functioning purely in the proper situation of being able to perform the duty for someone elses benefit, therefore you wouldnt be trying to enjoy the experience. So technically only the devotees can be situated on these higher platforms. Devotee (5): Why not a Vedic materialist on aparoksa? Maharaja: Because there is still a motive, and whenever there is a motive you are conscious of what you are trying to get from it, as soon as you are conscious of that then you are not in that state. The example of the state of aparoksa, gaining knowledge through aparoksa, means you can say to some degree but the quality or depth of it is like when you sleep at night, you are unaware of your sleeping but in the morning you can be questioned on how was your sleep and you could give an answer, a definitive answer. I am not sure, I was asleep, how would I know? You can say. Thats the point, you are engaged in the and then you think about it you can yes that was, you can understand. In other words, it is through that experience of it you can enter the experience. Devotee (7): In adhoksaja there is a range like aprakrta in a sense, because the Lord entering into it, so its like self-surrender it the higher. But in the beginning he is endeavouring to surrender or until you. Maharaja: What is this in relationship to?

Devotee (7): Unless you are unmotivated. This is unmotivated, adhoksaja? Maharaja: Unmotivated, but still you have the element of the Brahman understanding in that, so you cant say that it would be technically completely pure until aprakrta. Devotee (7): But there needs to be some endeavour Maharaja: Of course maximum is pure so therefore you get that effect. Devotee (7): At minimum if Maharaja: There is some commitment to the process. Because that is what you are looking for. Like the principle of what is the difference between you have a kid born in the movement they are devotee they are doing devotional activity what is the difference between them and someone who is initiated? Technically it is the commitment. They are born in the movement therefore they are just following. The parents do it everyone else around them does it, so that is what they know. So therefore they are counted as devotees. But it is considered general devotee. Devotees are special but within the category it is common. It is not until they themselves make that commitment where they are qualified to get initiated then they are called sampradayaic. Because otherwise they may follow they may not because they consider it is theirs. Sampradayaic means now they are committed to following it. So then that goes in that category. That is considered serious. Devotional service is always special but within devotional service that which is focused, which one is committed to, then thats what gives the most dynamic result. So always is there that element the more one is committed the better it works. Devotee (1): Can we classify the scientists into pratyaksa or the materialism, and the aparoksa for the karma-yogis? Maharaja: No, that you can do in the 5 levels of consciousness. This is where you gain the knowledge through. Where you are situated that is your consciousness not how you are gaining the knowledge. Like a devotee can gain knowledge through pratyaksa, he can see it. In fact, it is said that when sabda you are able to see as pratyaksa then you actually have understood. In other words, you hear that the material world is a place of suffering, so when you can actually observe that and understand the connection that means that it has become practical for you. So this is just how knowledge is gained, and naturally there is also some connection but generally through the levels of consciousness this is where you situate people. Saktas and scientists they are on anna-maya because they are dealing with the senses and the knowledge acquired with that. The ismists, they will be in 2 categories of ganapatyas or sauryas. They are either in life in general or specific categories of life they are worried about Then after that, whats that. This is pancapasana. Then where you are worshiping this Maha-Narayana puja, so they are worshipping Krsna in the mode of goodness, they are not worshipping transcendental Visnu, your proper performance of duties everything like that. Then Siva, is the impersonal platform of trying to understand the soul and liberate yourself from material existence. So within dharma, artha, kama and moksa these five kinds of mentalities are followed by the materialists. Either in a proper way according to the Vedic definition or if not, they just have that mentality and so they follow it in some modern way. It is just a matter of what knowledge they know, if they know the Vedic knowledge.

Devotee (2): It goes from one level to the next level according to how much purusa-bhava there is in the person who is trying to achieve the knowledge? Maharaja: There is still purusa-bhava in liberation because you identify with that this is me and I am that. There is still I am the controller and then therefore I am situated in Brahman and so I am the enjoyer of brahmananda. The purusa-bhava is always there, it is a matter of detachment in the performance of your duties. The purusa-bhava only really goes with devotional service. What can be observed in general is the principle of not being attached to the results. The impersonalist is attached to the result of getting to the Brahman for himself but in all other material activities we call in the way of society, friendship, love and all these different things like that that we would see that he would be detached from. So it is relative when you say. Like you have different varieties of black. So then you are trying to work out whats more black whats less black. So therefore something that is lighter has more grey in it, but thats pretty light, but its not it is black. So you are finding variety within something that is everybody just accepts that that where you are going to look within. So within materialists, dharma, artha, kama ,moksa those who are situated in liberation are considered very elevated and not material, beyond this world and all these things. Because your comparison is material existence. Therefore the sinful person is considered the lowest, the pious is considered better and the transcendentalists is considered better than that. But looking at it from the devotional platform they are all bogus, because only the devotee is proper. But taking it from how to get out of the world then the transcendentalist is on something that the karmi doesnt have. At the same time the transcendentalist doesnt act, so how will he get his result? While the karmi does, so the combination of karma and jnana that gives you buddhi-yoga. Thats why these different things describe the parameters by which you are making your decision. Like we want to unscrew a screw and we have a block of wood and we have a kitchen knife, which is better? Devotee (2): knife. Maharaja: Now, lets say you have a knife and a screw driver that is not exactly the right but its still a screw driver. Which of the two would be better? Devotee (2): Screw driver. Maharaja: Ok. So now what if you have the not so well-fitting screw-driver and the appropriate screw driver for that screw? Devotee (2): Appropriate. Maharaja: You see you can create right and wrong, how do you make that standard? You have to have a parameter. These Vedic ways of thinking create a parameter of how to think and how to judge something. Otherwise how do judge and how do you know? The person has a little bit of nice quality and therefore you forget everything or he has so much good quality but there is something not right so therefore you dont see the good quality. So how do you? People make their decisions of right and wrong they are always constantly establishing these parameters, and because it is not based on sastra it is inconsistent. When it is based on sastra because all the different sastras, all the different bodies of knowledge can act together therefore there will be a consistency. Because it will all be based on the same principles. So thats whats recommended if you want to be sane then you follow a lifestyle that is consistent, if you want to be insane then you follow one that is not. Thats why the idea is that the Vedic is superior because it gives you a more consistent perspective on how you can make a judgement on what to do and what not to do, whats right and wrong.

Devotee (5): How do these five relate to sabda, anumana and pratyaksa? Maharaja: Sabda is coming from authority that is coming from aprakrta. Aparoksa is your anumana and pratyaksa is pratyaksa. You could take it like that otherwise you could take it depending upon where you are getting. If your knowledge is coming from authority but that authority is not getting it from authority they are getting it from their senses then it is paroksa. Like in the modern academy where do they get their knowledge from? Devotee (5): Other academics. Maharaja: Other academics. Where do they get it from? Devotee (5): Their senses. Maharaja: Yes, their senses. So therefore their knowledge is pratyaksa and them teaching them to someone else that is paroksa. Therefore they never get out of that realm because it came from their senses. Devotee (5): Wouldnt aparoksa also be sabda because you are following divine injunctions? Maharaja: It is there, means I have to check how broad this is. Because its got a specific definition, I have to try to find more reference to get a broader understanding on this. Rasa Vaikuntha, Svargiya & Parthiva Vaikuntha-rasa means transcendental rasa. The transcendental senses in contact with transcendental Krsna that rasa that is tasted that is Vaikuntha. Svargiya-rasa means that activity that is performed based on proper action and proper qualities, in in other words, it will be the emotional effect Parthiva means the sensual rasa from the senses and sense object In all of them it is all rasa, the method that it functions is exactly the same, but it is what you are dealing with, the medium that is different: you are dealing with transcendental, emotional or sensual, thats all, but rasa is rasa. Like an aratika is an aratika whether you offer it to your grandmother, or to a demigod or to Krsna - it is the same aratika, same incense. In this you have the asraya and visaya. The visaya means the enjoyer, the asraya means the enjoyed. The visaya is in the position of controller, and the asraya is in the position of controlled, or dependent. So you get the masculine and feminine principle. The asraya is drawing from the visaya some quality. When we think of rasa: mother Yasoda is in parental rasa, the cowherd boys are in the friendship rasa, the gopis are in the conjugal rasa. What rasa is Krsna in? Devotee (6): All of them. Devotee (5): He is rasa. Maharaja: He is rasa. You can say all of them, but more clear would be He is rasa. That means he is like an unlimited reservoir, then those who go to the reservoir they put their pot in the water and take out, so that is the asraya. Yhey are the asraya of that particular type of relationship. Mother Yasoda is the shelter for the parental rasa, the cowherd boys are the shelter for the friendship rasa. So then you are drawing from this. So now when you apply this if the soul serves Krsna then transcendental rasa is tasted. If the living entity follows the Vedic principles of religion they taste svargiya rasa or even someone who doesnt know about the Vedic but they happen to follow it by good fortune. You save someones life, it is not because it is something Vedic to do but you just do it, the taste

that will be gotten there is different from the sensual. What it is you are trying to gain from it, so the sastras are there, and you have an interest in what you want to gain, so you become the asraya that is the visaya. In other words following the Vedic culture is the visaya, we become the asraya. Does that makes sense why there is a problem in following the Vedic culture? Devotee (6): We want to be the visaya. Maharaja: Yes, we want to be the visaya, that means we set the standards, we set the rules. That is why there is an opposition to Vedic culture, it is not that people dont do all these things, they just dont want to be told to do them. Like the labourers they are all sitting there, working away. Then the head labor says somebody should go and get some more bamboo. They all just sit there working, because they wont want to be told what to do, then no one is doing anything, then the head guy goes, he calls the name, you go get the bamboo. They all just keep working and then after an appropriate amount of time have gone by so many seconds that it doesnt sound like he told me and the I did it, then the guy goes, jay, means I am going. Thats the point, no one wants to be told what to do, you want to feel that you are independent. That is the idea and therefore Vedic culture is a problem and God is a problem. Now you want to know the fun, now we have seen it in those other two which fall into a natural place, we see it very nicely that way. Now we are going to do something and then its not going to fit. Now the example of asraya and visaya when it is talking of the senses Bhaktivinoda Thakura gives an example of a rasa-gula and tongue. Who is the asraya and who is the visaya? Devotee (8): The rasa-gula is the visaya Maharaja: And the tongue is the asraya. So you are saying the rasa-gulla is the enjoyer. Devotee (8): The tongue is taking the taste from the rasa-gulla, but any could have been taken from it. I could have been seen, it could have been felt, it could have been smelled. Maharaja: Your tongue can smell? Devotee (8): I am saying that. Maharaja: No, I am just joking. You have got a transcendental body here. Very good. Thats why he is Adi-deva. I dont know if you wanted an eye on your tongue. I can understand Gautamas eyes on his feet, thats a good one. You can be holding on a conversation, you dont trip or stub your toe. He used to study, whenever hed walk he wouldnt waste time so he carried the book and read. And then one time he fell into a ditch or something like that, very dangerous, but because of his sincerity to study he was given the benediction that he would have eyes on his feet. So therefore he can walk around and see where he is going at the same time study. Not bad. Think about all that time you are walking around. So the rasa-gulla has so many aspects of it that could be appreciated but the tongue only appreciates the taste. The tongue is the asraya which is drawing from the dead matter, which is the visaya, but is this the way in your own mind feel how it is going on? No, you are the controller, I have the rasagula, I am in control of the rasa-gulla, its fate is in my hand. I can look at it, I can eat it. I can throw it. This is the actual fun part, is the living entity thinks that he is the controller and enjoyer but actually he is not, he is the enjoyed. But he thinks it is dead matter, that is the illusion. But that dead matter that is expanded from Krsna, the potency in it is Krsna, in other words, who is enjoying the interaction? Krsna. Yes, it goes back to Krsna. Krsna is interacting with the living entity but the living entity doesnt see God

Devotee (6): Does this make us more feminine than the material energy? Maharaja: You can have this there is such a thing called packing order. She is higher up in the packing order. Devotee (6): Krsna is at the top Maharaja: Krsna is at the top, we got to get used to this, then His potency is below that, and then we are below that. There is always Krsna, His potency and us. If we can get used to that then it works very nicely. Devotee (1): What about in Bhagavad-gita Krsna is saying the living entities are superior than the material energy or what they are trying to exploit? Maharaja: They are superior, that perspective is used, yes they are cit and so therefore they are superior to acit. So in other words, the spiritual world is cit, the living entity is cit, and the material world is acit. Why is the living entity here because he is superior and therefore there is nothing for him to gain here. Because what he is gaining from his material existence is not what he thinks it is. He thinks it is the material nature, but it is inferior so what can he gain? It is only because Krsna puts His potency into it that the living entity is able to appreciate anything in the material world, they think they work on it that it is eternal, vaikunthabhrama, vaikuntha-bhrama. Vaikuntha-bhrama means bhrama, means this is bh, means an illusion, vaikunthabhrama means the living entity thinks that everything is eternal, the material world is eternal. Ananda-bhrama means he thinks everything is full of pleasure, happiness. Therefore because of that he engages in his material activities. Because vaikuntha-bhrama, his sambandha is off, then therefore I am the controller of the material energy. Ananda-bhrama is that I can be happy through this, that is his prayojana. And therefore he can engage in material activities, that is his abhidheya. So you can stick these with the I and mine, masculine and feminine, up in the first page, masculine feminine, I and mine, so vaikuntha-bhrama, vaikuntha-bhrama. These two illusions, therefore the Bhagavad-gita it says: duhkhalayam-asasvatam it is a place of misery and it is temporary. Because that is what we are looking for, thats the nature. The jiva is sac-cid-ananda. Sat, eternal existence and ananda is happiness or rasa and therefore one engages in activity. If one has a transcendental understanding one engages in transcendental activities. If one has a material understanding then one engages in material activities. All you have to do is to change the consciousness, change the perception then you change your activities. Does that make sense these three: Vaikuntha, Svargiya and Parthiva? That means the Parthiva gives the most temporary. As long as the senses and the sense objects are touching each other there is the experience. But as soon as it is disengaged it is gone. That would also make your difference between here when we are taking aparoksa as the experience it is only based on its connection. When the senses are touching the sense object you get an experience. As soon as it is not touching the object you dont get the experience. Only through memory you can remember it but you are not getting any more experience, thats why technically you could say it is not aparoksa. Because in aparoksa you can enter into it means get the experience. So it is very temporary. Whereas the svargiya, by remembering it you get the same experience, the other is that was nice, but this is you actually have the experience. Remembering can generate the experience. But still it is temporary because it is only as long as you identify with that situation, means maximum as long as you are in this body, as soon as you change the body then the whole pattern will be gone. Then Vaikuntha-rasa is eternal, that is superior, that is better.

Devotee (6): If all rasa is experienced in the mind, if thats the case then why is svargiya separate category? Maharaja: Because its emotional. Devotee (6): When one is direct contact with the senses and objects isnt that also experienced in the mind? Maharaja: Its experienced in the mind, but the mind appreciates it. Because it has a need so you are fulfilling it so therefore you are happy. Otherwise if it is not giving you happiness you dont think about it, you dont engage in it. The mind wont take the senses there. In other words, it accepts and rejects that, that is as far as it gets. Svargiya means it is based on religious duty therefore that creates a much deeper experience that is based on the emotional platform. Senses are not emotional, it is sense, it can be connected to an emotion but it is not an emotion. Maybe an expression of an emotion, it may give rise to emotion but it is not emotion. Emotion is a different thing. Emotion is experienced by the proper interaction between living entities. The sensual rasa is by the proper interaction between sense and sense object. The Vaikuntha means proper interaction between soul and God. God is always interacting, but it is a matter of the soul understanding that. Devotee (5): That works on the converse, not just happiness but also pain, also exists on the sensual and emotional? Maharaja: It is all part of a rasa. The sensual goes away as soon as it stops, but the emotional may last. There are higher and lower grades within rasa. Therefore we should attain to Vaikuntha-rasa. But even in the material sphere we are trying to connect our conditioned nature with the Lord. We are trying to bring that aparoksa in contact with adhoksaja, or we are trying to get the realization and all that. So by engaging properly in the Vedic activities then the experience is much greater. Otherwise the modern really only the senses, there is not really any emotional that you are sure it is going to last. Before it was a popular idea that relationships last, relationship with your family, your social position, all these things would last. So then they would have mainly that experience, occasionally there is a disappointment because it is the material world and thats understood therefore they would take shelter of religion. But nowadays they dont know that it is there and they just basically engage in sense gratification, its all based on sense gratification. And so being based around sense gratification then the amount of happiness they get from something is very minimal. Dealing with something that is so minimal has an advantage in that there is not much to get attached to. But the problem is if you are already attached how do you get rid of it? Thats why the jnani cant purify himself he has to be purified through karma and once he gets to a stage of realization then he can act within jnana. The difficulty comes is if the devotee ok he doesnt have much to get attached to but if he is already attached how does he get rid of it unless he deals with that attachment properly? Thats why then the Vedic rules become important because we want to follow them to please Krsna. We are not interested in getting good material experiences and following Vedic culture and piety for that reason. We are doing it because we want transcendental realization. We want to please Krsna and come to the transcendental platform. (end of lecture) (end) September 29, 2008

Maharaja: Rasa is of one nature but it is of 3 different platforms that it is applied. That which is on the spiritual, that which is on the emotional, that which is on the sensual. The sensual means your senses and dead matter is the relationship. The dead matter being the masculine, the visaya and your senses being the feminine, the asraya. The emotional, it depends upon who is in which position at the moment in which way it goes, but therefore asraya and visaya will be between two people, not between a living entity and dead matter. Vaikuntha means between the soul and God, or between the soul on the transcendental platform and another devotee on the transcendental platform. Adhyatmik, Adhibhautik & Adhidaivik This is applied in many, many ways. As we go through the literature then wewill start the many different ways its applied but basically its pointing out its you have yourself, you have others and whats behind that. So we have ourself, adhyatmik, if we are taking it which we generally hear is in relationship to klesa, klesa means problems or difficulties. Adhyatmik-klesa means difficulties that come to you due to your body and mind, meaning due to yourself. Adhibhautik means what comes from other living entities, the problems they give. Adhidaivik means what comes from nature, in other words the demigods. Like here its been raining for the last so many days, the place is very muddy, hard to move around, people get sick, that is adhyatmik. The result is that it causes some trouble on the adhiatmik platform or other people may complain why there is so much mud and you are got to do something about it, so then you get the adhibhautik. But in any case its there. Adhyatmika is oneself, adhibhautik is with others, adhidaivik is the demigods. In relationships ones self, thats where you are establishing yourself, thats who you are will be in the sambandha. And the abhidya will be the adibhautik, then you interact with others. Adidaivik would be what is behind it. You are interacting with others but who is getting it done? The demigods. We get attached to our actions when we shouldnt because we think we are the doer when we are not. Or we get upset with others because we say they do it when it is actually not, it is the modes of nature. Or you could take it the other way, erverse it: We are adhyatmik, other people are the prayojana, adhibautik, we are trying to interact with them through the adhidaivik, the mode of goodness that the interaction goes on. So in any case in all these different ways you can put it together. So this will come up, it comes in creation. So many other things. This is used a lot these three. Devotee (1): What in terms of acquiring knowledge? Maharaja: You yourself, by your own studies and practices, that is the adhyatmika. Adhibhautik would be what you gain from others. Adhidaivik is what is coming down what is already there, the Veda, the authority and tradition. Devotee (1): I mean in terms of epistemology, whatever is existing in the object, Suhotra Maharaja gives an explanation. Maharaja: What explanation did he give? Devotee (1): It was in terms of what we perceive on the pratyaksa level and then whats actually existing in the object inherently. I wasnt clear. Maharaja: Adhyatmik would be what you are able to perceive and understand, but then its like we said it is through your practice and understanding that you get something, but you

have heard it from authority. Adhibautik would be what you gain from others, the process of the teacher teaching you, means that mechanical process, what you have learned from other people their telling youre their experiences. But your realizations, means that element thats coming because thats beyond the perception so that would be adhidaivik, or what is coming down in tradition, what the great personalities have done. You always have ourself, what we perceive as something that is like us but separate from us, then there is the reality of what is going on. We see us, there is the pillar but the pillar performs what he does because of higher power, it is not the brick, its not the mortar, its the Lords potency. The same way in ourselves that we are able to do things, we say adhyatmik is the self but in the same way that we can speak or our eyes blink is because of the demigods so these three are always at hand. So in other words, you are doing it for yourself thats one thing. You are doing it for others thats another thing, or when you are doing it for a higher purpose thats the third. There is always these three: so you are always going to have yourself, the Lord and material energy, so there is always going to be that aspect then you have knowledge. Devotee (2): When you said there is going to be those three which ones is material energy and which one is the Lord? Maharaja: Adhyatmik would be oneself, adhibautik would be the material energy, and adhidaivik would be the Lord. Because the devas get their potency from the Lord, so He is the Supreme daiva. This consideration is just another form of cit, acit, isvara. Varnasrama concepts Just basic principles we have all heard of the four asramas, four varnas but the principle of it is its relationship, it is establishing based on Krsnas laws by the natural form of rasa in the spiritual platform then it is naturally establishing what are the rules and regulations of human interaction here. Human interaction here has to be progressive therefore it is not like an animal. It is like a human. And human means you are trying to elevate yourself. Therefore the rules of varnasrama are there so that we may properly move forward. Thats all it is for. Its side thing is you perform the religious duties but that is to engage your conditioned nature in progressive activities. Because otherwise if you are on the transcendental platform your nature should be engaged in spiritual activities. Thats what you would be doing. The spiritual body, the spiritual senses, the spiritual mind will be engaging in spiritual activities with Krsna. But on the material platform that having been forgotten then the relationship is established because we dont know what is proper then through the rules and regulations of varnasrama we interact with others in a way that we engage our natural tendencies in higher purposes. Does that make sense? It doesnt make sense. So when it doesnt make sense then you raise your hand or you react at least. Otherwise I go on as if I say any questions and no one has questions then that means its done. But the idea is everyone is here in class to learn so if somebody doesnt know, its like this everybody kind of doesnt know but either they dont think much about it or they are too embarrassed to ask. So if somebody ask, they ask a question everybody would like to ask anyway. Because generally you notice in class when people ask questions that you would be embarrassed to ask do you hear anybody laughing? Generally not. Why? Because its a question theyd love to ask, but they dont. So no one has to worry that if they ask a seemingly stupid question everybody will be upset. No. People like you to ask stupid questions because they would like to ask it themselves. Because its only seemingly stupid, its not stupid. So thats the whole idea is if one doesnt know then one knows, and if one knows then one moves on.

The idea in the varnasrama is that all of these rules and regulations are there so that we know how to behave in human society. Because what is the social culture of Vraja? Devotee (2): Human. Maharaja: Its human. If you want to go to Vraja it is the natural culture there, this is what they follow. But they follow it with Krsna as the center and in a spontaneous way. But still the form of it is still there, it is the same culture. They use it but it is not the main medium, it is the devotion that is the most prominent. In Vaikuntha it is devotion through those rules of varnasrama, therefore in Vaikuntha they very strictly follow those rules of varnasrama. While in Vrndavana they follow them but it is not necessarily as strict, but it is still the basis. It is not that the strictness is less because it doesnt matter because they have a so-called alternative culture known as modern culture. There is a difference between the 6 Goswamis giving up varnasrama and living under a tree, meaning they used to follow it and they gave it up. And then someone who never followed it and even though he comes in contact with it and doesnt want to follow it and then claiming that it is spiritual to not follow it because the Goswamis didnt follow it then that is okay if your sentiment is to do like the Goswamis did. But the point is dont consider that it is the same renunciation because you didnt renounce anything. If you renounce something then you have to have it in the first place. Like if I sit here and go I renounce all of Bill Gates money. Billions of dollars I dont care for it. I wont use a penny. So thats the whole point if someone coming from modern background and then they come in contact with the Vedic culture and then they still dont follow it what was given up? Nothing. If one understands the importance of it one would like to follow it but there is a situation that doesnt warrant it. You understand warrant, means its not important, it doesnt suit, it doesnt match. It doesnt warrant the situation, he doesnt follow it then thats the same understanding, the same mentality. But if he is not following it because he doesnt like to follow it because he likes to follow his own culture his modern culture then that is not something glorious, nothing special. In other words, it may be correct philosophically but his own personal gain wont be anything. If it is that the Goswamis did like this and I do like this then youll get the benefit. But if it is because I dont want to do it, it is like I am willing to do it but they didnt do it so I dont do it. But if it is a matter of I dont want to do it and therefore because they didnt do it and now I have a reason I dont have to do it then that is not so good. Devotee (3): What does it mean the Goswamis gave up varnasrama? Maharaja: They are paramhamsas they still follow the culture of varnasrama but they are not following any occupational duty to maintain themselves. A sudra performs arts and by that he is maintained. A vaisya performs economics he is maintained. A ksatriya protects the people and administrates therefore he is maintained. The brahmana performs his brahminical duties therefore he is maintained. But as a paramahamsa they dont do that they just absorb themselves in their service. Then it is up to Krsna He takes care of them or not. They are not dependent upon the social duties to maintain themselves. It still doesnt mean that the culture is not followed. Culture that is the eternal principle. It is not a temporary principle. It is not just Indian culture. This is the tradition. Indian culture is the man can wear suits but the women wear saris. That is hindu. Or the women wear saris and wear their bindi but their hair can be loose so you are not too fanatic. Or it can be loose but also nicely cut into some fashion but not too short. If it is too short that means you are a sindhi and you wouldnt want anybody to figure that one out. Therefore it should be at least shoulder length better it is a little past so it has the idea it is long, it has the

Indian look that it is long but it is more modern fashionable so-called. And also it is Hindu is even if it is a situation where a Westerner would tie their hair you wouldnt because tying hair is Indian and you wouldnt want to do that. These is how you identify. That is Hindu. Not that they wear a sari or a bindi or that they wear a dhoti, that is eternal. One has to be able to distinguish what is Indian and what is eternal. If you cant then better to get educated. Dont talk. It is just like one is a carpenter and he is an expert carpenter he doesnt give comments on mechanics, car mechanics or something. So one may be a modern academic and has so much facility but when it comes to Vedic culture unless that is your training dont comment on it. I am talking about devotees here, of course. If you havent been trained in it dont comment on it. If you havent spent time in India didnt live in India didnt live with the Indians you have no right to comment on Indian culture because you cant tell the difference between what is actually Vedic and what is modern Indian. In other words, what is Vedic that has been adjusted for the modern taste, so that you cant tell so you are unqualified so one shouldnt speak. Where you are expert speak there. Lets say your PhD is in quantum physics you dont comment on music. So the PhD in music he comments on music he doesnt comment on quantum physics. That is just the law. Devotees tend to not follow this law. Areas they are not trained in still they feel they should pontificate on. Varna-asrama we have to understand is the natural human relationships of a human being in this world that emulate the culture and practices of those in the spiritual world who are already perfect. In other words, varnasrama is the culture that one follows to become perfect like those on the spiritual platform who are already following it. But there it is the purest form of daivi-varnasrama. You are not dealing with conditioned nature, you are dealing with constitutional nature. In other words, daivi-varnasrama applied on constitutional nature, while here daivi-varnasrama on conditioned nature, that is why there are aspects and points at which we give up certain things. Because we are switching from conditional nature following varnasrama to constitutional nature following varnasrama. Someone on the platform of bhava doesnt have to follow varnasrama here in this world because they are following it there. Bhava means you are in your spiritual form, rendering service on that platform, they are following the culture there. Do you think they are going to be there, they are going to end up as resident of Vrndavana and then someone is going to say, well here in Vraja we do this and then he says I dont care we dont care for varnasrama. They are going to say that? Nanda Baba is the king. Oh what do we care? Or what is his authority? That is varnasrama. So much everything goes on because of that. So we always have to remember that the varnasramas central sole purpose is to elevate you from the conditioned platform to the transcendental platform, and it does it by engaging your senses in the same activities that those on the transcendental platform will engage their senses. The difference is that they always remember Krsna and we dont, therefore they do it naturally and we have to do it according to our rule. In other words, varnasrama is spiritual culture in practice. Devotee (4): Someone may say that is good but the prominent is chanting Hare Krsna and that contains everything. Maharaja: That contains everything and then the person saying this is married? Or the person saying this is living in Beverly Hills in their mothers house? They are chanting Hare Krsna, go sit under a tree. We dont need political correctness we dont need bureaucracy we dont need all these things, just sit under a tree and do like the Goswamis do and run the whole movement from there. Because you are only interested spiritual life, spiritual everything, you

couldnt care less you spit on political correctness. You spit on modern diplomacy. And you only care for devotional service, you only care about devotees and you dont want to see anyone go away and drive anyone away because all there is is devotional service. All there is is chanting Hare Krsna. I see that then that is honest to say that if they are not then I say they are cheating. They are simply using if for their own managerial and economic purposes. There is only chanting Hare Krsna, then what about taking prasada? Why are you eating? Why are you washing up after you go to the toilette. Rsabhdeva didnt wash after he went to the toilette. In fact he rolled around in it. They why dont you do that and chant Hare Krsna. So I am really annoyed with the conditioned soul in his full conditioned glory saying there is only Hare Krsna and then considering so many facettes of his conditioned nature. We only chant Hare Krsna but then we dress casuals? If we only chant Hare Krsna we would go around with kaupines or naked. Haridas Thakura wears what, he only chants Hare Krsna. Thats my point, he doesnt care about anything. He chants Hare Krsna and a prostitute comes next to him and then he chants keeps chanting, shell get purified. So we have to understand how to apply we just chant Hare Krsna. True we just chant Hare Krsna. But what does that mean? How do we apply that as a conditioned soul? That we have to understand. We are not strong with you, we are strong with the propounders of this. We do chant that is our main focus. When it comes to any other mantra it is the main mantra, when it comes to any other process it is the main process but since we are not satisfied with that therefore there are other processes. If you just chant Hare Krsna you dont have to brush your teeth. You dont have to shave, comb your hair, do anything. But are those propounders of we just chant Hare Krsna doing that? No, they are getting up in the morning, taking their shower and are shaving, why? Because the sastra says, no, because its a mleccha and yavana they used to do that. And if they dont then their wife wont like them. Thats why they are doing it they are shaving their face because their wife doesnt like it when he touches her with a grizzly face. Thats why he is shaving. Not because that is the sastra. So someone who accepts the sastra lock stock and barrol can say we only chant Hare Krsna. Because then they will be able to balance it and see that the sastra only talks about it. Manu says that the highest duty of a brahmana is to chant Japa. It says if he does that then all other duties are accomplished. I dont hear them saying that. I dont even see them practicing that. Only chant Hare Krsna and go out and shake a bucket and collect coins. If we just chant we sit down and chant. So where did this collection come from? That is economics. Where did that come from? We have to eat. No, Haridas Thakura just chants. Someone brings him something he eats. Someone doesnt bring him something he doesnt eat. That is just chanting Hare Krsna. Devotee (4): By chanting Hare Krsna and serving the Vaisnavas this cultural aspect comes automatically. Maharaja: It comes automatically if a mleccha is aware of it. But criticizing devotees also comes pretty naturally. Associating with devotees what does that mean? How do you associate with devotees? What would you serve a devotee as food? How would you serve it? What is the environment in which you would serve that food to that Vaisnava? What does guhyam akhyati prcchati. A devotee comes to you and says I am having this problem in my devotional service and then the next day it is on the internet. Is that guhyam akhyati prrchati? So I dont see this what people are talking about? Where is it?

I can go to any temple in the world and I will not see one standard prasada because they dont know how to cook neither will I see standard prasada service neither do they know the environment in which they serve prasada. Nothing. So what culture are they following? The natural culture that they were born with. But the whole point is human life means you are trained in what is human. You are born an animal, you are trained to be a human. So the whole point is notice it is only on points of Vedic culture and practices that all this, oh we chant Hare Krsna all the fighting is about. No one is fighting about the Western culture. Nothing. Zip. Why? Because they came from mlecchas and they still follow the mleccha culture. Or mlecchas meat eaters so they have gotten rid of that. But they are opposed to the Vedic principles so that technically is called Yavana culture. Yavanas means they are against Vedic culture. Mleccha means they are meat-eaters. Generally yavanas are meat-eaters so they are kind of synonymous. But you could be a mleccha and be favourable. So the whole point is, I dont see that they are throwing out the modern stuff. Oh it is all we are being practical yukta-vairagya but if it is yukta-vairagya then we could also use the Vedic. The modern is just as irrelevant as the Vedic. Where is modern? Any fashion in the modern world disappears after how many months? And that is in general, 6 months. But if you are in a particular group it can disappear within a week. So basically anything that one would be doing would be irrelevant by modern definition. Modern means what is happening right now so if you are doing what happened yesterday you are irrelevant. That means you are not modern. So technically you can never be modern because you can never just do the thing now unless you are setting the trend. And if you are setting the trend then where is the need for political correctness because what you do is whatever everybody else follows. Or fitting in you would be the one setting the standards. So the whole thing is very inconsistent. Vedic is eternal, it always applies. You just have to have the brains to be able to apply it. If you cant apply it then just say I dont know how to apply it. But dont puff yourself up and say it is not possible to use especially if you have never tried. Prabhupada wanted every devotee to spend a year in India to get that experience. Prabhupada he had a 108 temples around the world, he would spend 6 months in India and 6 months to the rest of the world. What does that say? When he came to India in the beginning there was no facilities so they go around and stay in these very cultured peoples houses and he told the devotees they should learn from them about the culture. When Subhag Maharaja joined Prabhupada told him because he is from a very high-grade aristocratic Bengali family in Calcutta he told him dont forget what your parents have taught you. You add Krsna consciousness. Very different from what these people are saying. Just throw it all out. But when they throw it out what is left? Their own middle class American lifestyle. Thats whats left. Some are upper class American lifestyle. And some are lower middle class. But it is just an average American lifestyle. That is what is left. But that is fine, that is yukta-vairagya, that is being practical that is this that blab la bla. Because they dont have enough brains to understand the Vedic. It is over their head. Like someone who cant swim and throw him at the deep end of the pool they dont know what is going on. But they are so proud they cant acknowledge that. The Vedic culture is so refined. Why does Krsna follow it? Why does He come to establish it? Yada yada hi dharmasya. He comes to establish what? The Vedic culture. And if they cant see the Vedic culture get some glasses. Someone who knows Vedic culture can see it every day in India and these people cant see it at all. And just like Max Muller he never stepped a foot in India. So just like him all these academics follow him and the blind men following him into

the ditch. Blind leading the blind. Why do you think that example is there. We are not saying they are stupid we are saying they are blind. We didnt know about Vedic before Prabhupada came along and then now we are going to throw it out, we are the big paramahamsas? Prabhupada only taught us Vedic. Why are they wearing dhotis on 26 Second Avenue? Well they wear them in India can we wear them Prabhupada. Well I dont know, well I guess. Who introduced dhotis, shaved heads, sikas, brahmana underwear, brahmana threads, neck beads? And now these people are going to throw it out? Who are they, who are these people? Who do they think they are? They can just write off what Prabhupada did because they cant do it, they cant figure out how to apply it, they are so foolish they are so uninformed, they lack the practice, they lack the sadhana, they lack the discipline. And then they are going to say they have the right to throw it all out? Nonsense. It makes no sense. How they can think like this. They have their own taste they have their own comfort, fine what does it matter. Prabhupada couldnt care less that the temple president at the time in Los Angeles or San Fransisco the guy had a beard, Prabhupada didnt care. He did his service. So what do we care? If they want to wear modern clothes and be modern and ear modern. What do we care? But if you want to make a philosophy out of it then we come after you. You just this is the way I am I am comfortable like this I like moving in these social circles I am comfortable to preach in these areas, great, that is how we are going to make the world Krsna conscious but they want to be the world and the acarya at the same time. It doesnt work like that. You cant behave and act and talk like a common man and then claim that you are the leader of everything. You cant do that. So the devotee he lives outside, so many devotees they live outside, they live their own lifestyle that they would be practically living anyway if they werent a devotee. They would be hippies, they would be vegetarian, they would be organic an dnatural, they would by trying to live some alternative lifestyle, use alternative medicine, some reiki and throw whatever it is you like in there. They would be doing some meditation some kind of sadhana. They would be reading some kind of spiritual book. They would have been doing that anyway. And then they are going to comment about the eternal principles of Krsna consciousness? They cant follow them that doesnt mean others cant. They dont like to follow them tha tdoesnt means others dont. They cant see the reasons for them that means others dont. So that is the whole thing. Live and let live. They want to live like that fine but why do they have to be in the face of those who are trying? It is like the principle we see in the pastime of damayanti. The caravan was traveling with tamed elephants to carry of the goods, the merchants. Going through the jungle then they come across a herd of wild animals. One thing wild elephants cant tolerate is tamed elephants. Tamed means domesticated, you catch an elephant and train them up. Wild elephants dont like that. Why are they submissive to these humans? So they come in and make a mess. So in the same way, untrained humans dont like it if people try to follow human culture. Because that means they are an animal. If Vedic culture can be applied today effectively that means those who dont want to follow it then they are obliged to follow it because Prabhupada said. Now if we can prove it doesnt apply today you cant use it no one can do it then everybody is comfortable. Therefore those who are attempting to follow Vedic culture make those who are not uncomfortable. Of course, it will do well to those who are following the culture to stick to themselves also and not bother those who dont want to follow in that way everybody is comfortable. Dont disturb the minds of the ignorant. We are not saying ignorant of Krsna consciousness we are saying ignorant of culture, or lets say at least ignorant of Vedic culture.

And they cant discriminate between the principles of the Vedic culture and peoples sadhana in trying to affect it. So if anybody does anything wrong you throw it out. But is going to do this we should have banned marriage a long time ago in ISKCON. So what will be left? There have been people who have eaten and gotten sick so we should ban that also. So we have to be able to try, to make that attempt to move forward. You know up to this point everything goes smoothly. Rasa it is a little touch and go but we can get by with it. It is not getting too technical. But as soon as we hit varnasrama then the trouble starts why? Because devotees accept the philosophy but not the culture. What did Prabhupada say: philosophy without religion is mental speculation. So what is the position of re-initiation? What is the standard? Ask 100 senior men get 100 answers. Who is God? What is the process in this age? Ask 100 senior men get one answer. Philosophy they know, culture they wouldnt have a clue about. Individuals may understand and be very good at it but the Western mind has no culture cant relate to culture, doesnt like culture. Why? Because maybe there maybe a restriction in my sense gratification. I want to be independent, I want to do whatever I want, I dont want anybody controlling me an dtelling me what to do. But everybody else should follow rules so that they dont bother me. It doesnt make any sense but that is the point. It is mental speculation. Then on the other side the hindus they have religion without philosophy so then it is just sentiment. So the idea is we dont throw out the philosophy we dont throw out the religion they are supposed to be combined. The combination of these two the philosophy and the religion that is human life. And remember the Bhagavatam makes a very strong point that by studying this Bhagavatam it will create cultural revolution in peoples lives. He didnt say philosophical, it said cultural. Because it is a culture of Krsna consciousness. That means in the spiritual world there is an attitude on how to interact with devotees. Oh the association with devotees, so define the association with devotees. Thats where you start running into problem because that you associate with devotees that is philosophy, how to associate that is the culture. The philosophy is the main point it is the eyes. But that whole form and that of it thats your culture. Otherwise what that mean surrender to Krsna. Surrender to Krsna, how do I surrender? What does it look like a surrendered devotee? What are our examples Yudhisthira Maharaja, surrendered devotee what culture did he follow? Arjuna surrendered devotee what culture did he follow? Rupa Goswami, Sanatana Goswami surrendered devotees what culture did they follow? Srila Prabhupada surrendered devotee what culture did he follow? Are we seeing a pattern here? All it is they dont know it, they dont want to take the time to figure it out because they think it is so big, so complicated, just rules and regulations but that itself is a misunderstanding. Varna-asrama is a method of relationship. And how many self-help books do they read for the purpose of what? Relationship, efficiency in the material world, attitude. Varna-asrama explains all that perfectly, but they are unable to see it, unable to appreciate it. We understand that can happen but dont make a philosophy out of it. It is just we chant Hare Krsna. Nice. Then why do we just have harinam week? That is one out of 52. What happened to the other 51 harinam week? So where is this we just chant Hare Krsna. Someone does something wrong what will we do? Make sure that they are chanting Hare Krsna. No, we have all kinds of mundane ideas how to purify somebody that dont work. That are not supported by sastra. They are somebodys mental speculation. Devotee (1): In Krsnas lila in Mathura he is staying in Sandipani Munis gurukula and in Vraja what is the asrama of Krsna?

Maharaja: Grhastha. He is brahmacari, but they are grhastha. Because they are brahmacaris until they go to the gurukula for the dvijas. But technically they are in the grhastha environment they are supposed to be in the gurukula environment. They are in the family environment. Devotee (1): So generally they are supposed to go younger at age 5? Maharaja: They would if Krsna was in Mathura that may have happened. So you see that as soon as he went back to Mathura what was the first thing the parents did? They send him to the gurukula. Because that would have been done before but they couldnt do it. But there he grows and follows the vaisya duties but he is an unmarried vaisya. So basically your brahmacari principles apply. It is just not so obvious the teacher and stuff like that. They have Gargamuni the family guru. The parents are there as guru, other leaders of society are gurus. So he is getting good instruction, you never hear of Him not being expert in following the culture. He is very good at the etiquette and everything. So He has learned that all from His gurus. But it is for the purpose of performing ones duties and living in a grhastha environment, it is not for the purpose of elevating oneself and getting one out. Therefore when he goes to Mathura then He shows now He is going to be a king so therefore now what to do. Then He studies all the Vedas. But you see in Krsnas pastimes in Vraja they are quoting Vedas all the time. They are quoting sastra. And Nanda Baba is talking about Bhagavad-gita so they know all these things. But it is to bring oneself to the proper realization that one can take it beyond dharma, artha, kama and moksa. In Krsnas lila they only have to worry about dharma, artha and kama, they dont have to worry about moksa because they are already liberated. They are already perfect they dont have to give up their family life and their seeming material activities, ordinary activities. Because all their activities are connected to Krsna. So they are already on the perfect platform. The problem is people come here follow varnasrama or less but it is not connected to Krsna. Devotee (1): Even many of our acaryas were not raised in a gurukula environment still it was Vedic culture so it was favourable Maharaja: It is always favourable. Thats why Prabhupada said dead or alive it is valuable. So even if they say the Vedic culture is dead it is still worth more than any culture anywhere else in the world. Why is it that the oriental culture catching so much attention? Because there is some substance there that is not found in the Western culture. Where does the oriental culture get its basis of all those arts and sciences? From the Vedic. But they cant handle it in the Vedic form, it is too direct, too spiritual, too. While the oriental is enough adjusted that they can relate to it. Devotee (5): I remember this year when we went to Vraja-mandala parikrama there was one Vraja-vasi was asking some questions and one of the question was how do people in the West arrange marriages and what system they follow. They told him that there is no system as such. His mood was that he couldnt believe that that they dont have a system for that. Maharaja: Because it is so logical why they dont have a system. Just like we have taught you cooking and how the spices work and the vegetables mix and different things to do and whats cooked and uncooked. And then they say what is the cooking method of those where you come from? We dont have a cooking method. It just happens. What do you mean? How can it just happen? But for people who dont know the culture it is just happening they think it is normal. But look at the result of it. They are not happy. But the Vedic they know what is human life so they know what they are looking for. Like if you know what is actually food then when you cook you can get it. If you dont know what food is when you try to cook or you dont know the science of cooking what you end up with? (end of lecture)

Devotee (1): I heard some of the academids in our movement also say about that yada yada hi dharmasya verse that its not exclusively to give Vedic culture because the Vedic culture was aleady being practiced at that time during the Mahabharata, even the Kauravas were very strictly following Vedic culture Krsna came to teach how to connect things to Him, give sanatana-dharma. So that is a valid understanding? Maharaja: Yes, the thing is dharma has to be understood, it means inherent nature, dharma is what does not change. A person following Vedic culture is aware of the inherent nature that is already there anyway. A person who follows Gods laws is a practitioner of Vedic culture. Because whether you know it or not. Prabhupada in the West he sees varnasrama: you still have your intellectuals, your doctors, your lawyers. You still have your administrators. You still have your people engaged in economics. And you still have people that are hired by the others to do the skilled labor, the fine arts, and unskilled labor. It is just not very scientific. They dont know where the lines are therefore the vaisyas try to control the brahmanas, or the ksatriyas. The ksatriyas try to control the brahamnas. The government is taking 40, 45, 50% tax that shouldnt happen, maximum they can take is 25 and they should encouraging people to be religious and give in charity. The government needs money for welfare work but if the people are already giving welfare work it doesnt have to do as much so with less money they can run their administration. So the lines are not clear. Or the brahmanas are trying to affect what they get done. Like the communism was affected by people who were intellectuals, the Russian revolution was done by intellectuals that was not their business, their business is to inspire people who can run the country. They brought about the revolution then came Stalin, they should have Stalin first and inspired him and let him run the revolution. They were running it but then once it was established they werent running it. So then what happened? Did it run the way they said. Devotee (1): They were getting their heads cut off. Maharaja: No, so thats the point, the brahmanas arent supposed to do that. So thats the point, it is not very scientific. Its going on, the people are still in those orders. You still have unmarried people who are studying, you still have married people, retired people, very rare but you have it now and again the renounced, the monk here and there, it is something you can do, it is not something that everybody should do. But it is still there, you cant get away from it. It is human nature, you cant get away from varnasrama, it is just a question whether you want to recognize it or not. You want to know what is the inherent nature of a grhastha, of a man, of a child, of a husband, of a wife, of a mother, because they are going on anyway. Why is a cow considered a nice mother and a dog not? Because the bow will stop everything for the calf and a dog feeds the puppies but as soon as it sees something going on it gets up and walks off and leaves the puppies right there. So the mum puts the kid in day care and goes to the spa that is a dog or a cow? It is the inherent nature you cant get around it. So this whole thing it doesnt apply you have to have really not much depth of vision to be able to say that. The external detail may not be important, that may not be able to be applied but the principles can always be applied. But they are attacking the principles, that is atheistic, to oppose the scripture is atheism. Therefore one can always find because you give an example and no example is perfect you can always find an exception. But the exception is not the rule. Devotee (1): What is an example of one of the details that we may not follow like a brahmacari should wear deer skins.

Maharaja: That is not necessary. The point is brahmacari lives a very simple lifestyle. So if deerskins arent available, dont work we dont bother with them. The point is it is just a simplified form. Like the shank and cakra with the branding. We dont use that. We wear neck beads. For us our neck beads is the same as the branding. Devotee (1): Whats the branding, its actually fire planked to skin? Maharaja: Means they take shank and cakra stamps and they put them in the fire, they do a yajna, and these are put in the fire and then with that it is branded because then one knows it signifies tapa that the material world is a place of misery, burning, fire. Misery of that. So it represents. So we dont use that. We wear neck beads. The people who follow that also wear neck beads but they only wear them for puja. But they always have the shank and cakra. But we wear neckbeads all the time. Devotee (1): They do that in the Sri sampradaya. Maharaja: Sris, Madhvas. There is always a form, there is always a variation within the Vedic. The Vedic is the most practical it has the most variation, there is the least variation in the Western. In the Vedic how many different lifestyles are people living, already are accepting eight. But in the Western how does one group actually accept. If you are a liberal how many people do you accept? Liberal means you are educated. So the uneducated, the conservative, the political they dont like all of them, the capitalist. But in the Vedic the capitalist lives right next to the sadhu, who is more broad-minded, who has variety? What is being done: dharma is made into adharma and adharma is trying to be made into dharma. All they claim the Vedic culture is not and the Western culture is it is just the opposite and they find some little loophole to prove it. Where is this broad-mindedness: there are 150 wars going on in the world? India tolerated how many people being inside? For thousands of years, the Americans couldnt handle it for 100 years. The British are constantly kicking out this one or that in their history. In India as far as tolerance and broad-mindedness, no problem. Devotee (1): Can you comment on India geographically what was the influence of Moslem conquest, British and even American influence today on brahinical varnasrama-culture? What is the difference between regions? Maharaja: The Moslems came in for so long but they adopted a lot of the Vedic dress, music, so much of the cooking. They absorbed it, they did it in their own way. So the only main difference and problem is religion. The British came in, its also religion but they also didnt like their structure, their economics and this and that. But they found the best way to run India was with the Indian stuff. They followed Manu in the court of law when it concerned Indians. But they tried to break it down. So they figured out by breaking down the educational system, then you change it. The Moslem was you become a Moslem or we cut off your head, it is more direct. The British figured out that if we re-educate them then we can change, then we get done what we want. The Western is simply if we can introduce our own culture through the means of consumerism and entertainment then we can economically get done what we want. All of them it was economics but the modern one was most effective because through television they are able to introduce everything that people should want to buy. By following modern culture you are a great consumer, the people who arent the consumers, the ones that control the consumers culture generally you find they are closer to our principles than the modern person because you cant lead the society by being a consumer. You have to lead the society by being controlled, by following etiquette and culture and all those things like that.

Otherwise it doesnt work, they know that. They are not trying to get social stability out of people more than that they are socially stable enough to spend money. When it breaks down that they cant spend money then they want to fix that. Because where does welfare work stop? When you on your two feet that you are a consumer. Thats where it stops. They dont care for you a day after that. But the Vedic cares for you from beginning to end. Because the real welfare is human life, is spiritual life. Human means you are elevating yourself, you cant be human and not be elevating yourself, either through karma, jnana, or yoga. You have to be elevating yourself. Of that the highest is bhakti-yoga. You have to be doing one of them, you cant be doing nothing. Otherwise you would be considered a tribal. In other words, devotees are professing tribal culture? Not even human. You are supposed to be spiritual, so you cant be human, but you can be tribal! Thats inconsistent, that doesnt make sense. We are not Vedic but we are not modern either. So we are going to rail against Vedic fine, but rail against modern also. No modern is all being practical. But since when is tribal practical? It is not known that it is practical, it works for the tribe, but it doesnt work outside the tribe. One tribe always kills another tribe. They are all tribals, the Angles and the Saxons, they were German tribes. The Roman spend a lot of time dealing with them, because they were tribals, barbarians. Just because they figured out how to use a mobile phone and to drive a Mercedes does that make them any better? They cleaned them up and got them out of the bearskins, they got them to take a bath, great, but their mentality hasnt changed. So who wasnt a tribal? In Europe you have the Celts they followed some semblance of Vedic culture, but what did the tribals do to them? They got rid of them, this is what tribals have always been doing, they did it thousands of years ago and they do it now. So it has always been a trouble. So it is not that a tribal culture is of validity today. Why is it that a tribal culture is okay for a devotee but human culture is not? That doesnt make any sense since the brahmana is the topmost human being. If he is the topmost human being you would think that he is following the topmost human culture, not topmost tribal culture. Because topmost tribal culture you got to be on penthouse suite in the upperwest side then we can talk perfection of Western tribal culture. So I dont see that happening. The only guys with the fancy cars when I went to the west were Indians, or somebody from the Asian continent including the Middle-east, from there over to whatever is the farthest point over that way, they were the only ones with the fancy cars all the tribals were taking the bus and it wasnt because they were committed to not polluting the environment, the bus also does. In other words, their culture is not effective. Every market in the world is taken over by who? The Asians, because they have a cultural system that still works, they still have values and methods that still work. If you know howto behave in some semblance of a human being you know how to behave to dead matter, you cant deal with them as a human being then how can you deal with dead matter? It is the same rules. Even if you deal with dead matter, if you cant deal with human beings, you are married to one, and if that falls apart, you dont do so good with dead matter anymore. Hell figure, oh I just keep girl-friends, then theyll walk out on you. At some point it just falls apart. If you cant relate to other people it cant work for you. So all this fighting against something that is giving you what they want. That is the worst part, is you have a sick kid and you try to give him medicine but he doesnt want, oh take it because it goes against his playing, sense gratification and being stupid, and it doesnt taste good maybe, but then he gets healthy, and then how long is it nice but he would rather be sick. The modern culture would rather be socially sick than taking the medicine of the Vaisnava culture. We are not professing varnasrama as separate from devotional service. We are professing daivi-varnasrama. So all this thing is theyll quote from asuric-varnasrama but that doesnt count. Otherwise they can find what went wrong in the

Vedic culture somewhere But we dont even have to look for finding something wrong in the modern: politician, or judge, or teacher, or doctor anything, it is obvious. You just pick up one newspaper and got an example of all four varnas and all asramas something going wrong, and that is daily and that is just what they decided to print. In the Vedic they really got to hunt around and always come up with one example, the same example. Why would they bother unless there is a motive or unless there is ignorance? I can understand if they are just so committed to Prabhupada and they just only see what he has taught and because he said he has made comments about varnasrama and they have only understood it that way and therefore thats the determination. Then you dont mind. Then its a matter of pointing out the balance of what Prabhupada is talking about. Because he says human life doesnt start until you follow varnasrama, but he wants to make sure you dont follow varnasrama not for Krsna. So its a simple statement follow varnasrama. Once you are following it, whats the thing mleccha dharma or varnasrama-dharma, whats your choice? So therefore you are following varnasrama, but in that dont get distracted like many of the followers of the Vedic culture are and do engage in Vedic culture not connected to Krsna. That he is warning against. But they take it is he doesnt like varnasrama. Why would he talk so much on it? Why would so many purports be connected to it if it wasnt important? Devotee (6): Just before coming I came across this purport of Prabhupada in Fourth Canto, Chapter Eight, he says he goes describing the importance of the acarya establishing everything, the power of the pure devotee, I think that touches also on the Vedic principle. Then he says when the acarya leaves the rogues and thieves immediately introduce different principles in the form of so-called svamis, yogis, philanthropists, welfare workers and so many things. And then he goeshe says that the sincere disciples will follow the instructions of the spiritual master. He doesnt reestablish or anything, he just leaves like that. Maharaja: You have to leave, because you dont want to make it too blunt because otherwise there will be also fighting over that. Because then you get people fighting over following Vedic or not following but both of them dont know what they are talking about. Its just like the liberals and the conservatives. They both have good points but they have missed the point. Because the point is the middle. So they are thinking its their position. No, its not that. Because what they are thinking what they are professing isnt actually the full package. So even many strong propounders of the Vedic culture they miss the point that its actually its only the most useful thing to use in devotional service, it is not the establishment of Vedic culture that we are trying to do. We are trying to establish devotional service and a culture favourable to it. If something is favorable why would someone speak against it? If rice, dal and sabji are available why would we speak against it? If it is not available, you cant get it, you cant import it, then you use something else. Then someone will say no you cant eat unless there is rice and dal. That is kind of like crazy, we got to eat. Devotee (6): There are different tastes, for example on the question of the maha-mantra, the question will be, are the effects of chanting the maha-mantra equal to all the varnas and asramas. Maharaja: It is, it is way beyond that but we dont act like that. That is my point, one may have that understanding but then there is the realization. Once you are realized on that platform then you can act as a paramahamsa, until then you act according to the conditioned nature you actually think you are. Because we know the Hare Krsna maha-mantra, Krsna gives at the end of the Eighth Chapter Krsna gives chanting and performing devotional service you get the benefit of every other branch of Vedic activity, so that is understood. But the problem is that we are still attached to those branches, so that has to be engaged. How do you want to engage

it other through Vedic culture? Otherwise whats the nice direct clean connection? Its obvious. Devotee (6): Because in one sense its easy. If I carry this big ego because I think I am like this or like that and then the principle behind the Vaisnava conception of the chanting of the holy name is that the varna and the asrama is secondary. Maharaja: It is secondary, but the body is even less than that! Thats my point. The soul is primary and therefore varnasrama is secondary. Varna-asrama is the natural culture of the pure soul. What position is the material body in? Because we see souls in the spiritual world, we see varnasrama is in the spiritual world. We dont see material bodies in the spiritual world, that means the material body is of even less importance than varnasrama. So we say we kick out varnasrama then we kick out the body also because that is the only reason why varnasrama is introduced because you have a material body and you act like it Devotee (6): Then by artificially implementing that the whole structure is a failure is artifical. It is not based on truth. It is based on an assumption that I want to impose by my own inclination. Maharaja: Means the body or varnasrama? Devotee (6): Whatever the Vedic principle sometimes to be practical. One synthesizes everything, chant Hare Krsna and everything will be. Maharaja: Thats ok, but the guy is not just chanting Hare Krsna but picking up his girl-friend and getting laid. He is not. You go to the temple, people are taking darsana of the Deities and you look around. Everybody is checking everybody else out. The new boy that came in he is being checked out by all the ladies, the girls walks in. Tell me, where is the chanting of Hare Krsna? Thats why I am saying so therefore since they are not just chanting Hare Krsna, dress properly, act properly, so that people can take darsana of the Deity. The guy walks in without a shirt on doing the whole thing, why, people are taking darsana of the Deities, they dont want to see your biceps? Or the girl walks in flitting around, why? We are here to take darsana. You want to do that do it at home. Go impress your local people, why do I need to be impressed by your little muscles, or hey you finally got a trainers bra. Why do I have to look at all that? So therefore where is the just chanting Hare Krsna. I want to see it. They are all talking, I dont see it. If I saw the temple room full of Haridas Thakuras I wouldnt say zip. But I dont see that. We are just chanting Hare Krsna well if you are just chanting Hare Krsna then what is the problem with fasting? Why be fanatic? I thought you were just chanting, why do you need to eat? I just chant Hare Krsna and I found this bed-sheet and I put it on. No we cant wear bedsheets we can only wear dress casuals. But I have to go out of may way to go to a shop to buy that. I just pick this one up because this. Where is this just chanting Hare Krsna? That is my point. Someone who is committed to just chanting Hare Krsna full dandavats from all directions. But I dont see it, its just talk, it is a political and logical tool to try to undermine the Vedic culture that is its purpose. It is not to get people to chant but it is to get people not to follow Vedic culture. That is his purpose, you have to see what is behind it. The philosophy is fine but the purpose on how it is being used is not. Like the ghee lamp is great but if I use it to bludgen someone over the head, then he says he hit him with the ghee lamp. No, the ghee lamp is fine, ghee lamps are great. It is being used improperly. In the same way one could say what is if the Vedic culture is used improperly. Of course, it shouldnt be that is why we say daivi-varnasrama daivi-varnasrama is Vedic culture used properly in devotional service. So we have answered all positions. They are trying to say daivi-

mleccha-dharma, that doesnt work. Then they will say why are you being discriminatory against Western culture? Why are you discrimitory against Vedic culture? Somehow or another it always goes one way. And I only know one mentality that works on this principle it goes one way only. And it is not known as the logical one. Therefore you have people who are supposed to be in a position of intelligence and leadership saying the same thing that I could hear from a lady about her environment. The man has to tell everything, the woman can keep secrets. The man has to always make the obvious endeavor, the woman doesnt have to, that is the nature, you cant change it that is the way it is. Masculine means direct and feminine means indirect. The whole thing that you can only talk against Vedic culture but not against modern, then you are being discriminatory. Then you are this, then you are that. Whats the reaction? Its an emotional outbreak not a logical intellectual outbreak. So what does that mean? It is a feminine mentality. And what kind of feminine mentality? Insecure feminine mentality. That is the problem: There is no leadership. Ttraining and education, thats the only way. Therefore Prabhupada said establish a class of brahmanas then we can establish Krsna consciousness all over the world. If you dont establish brahmanas then you cant do it. Ksatriyas cant function without brahmanas, and vaisyas why would they bother. Once you make brahmanas then you can do. But there is no emphasis on brahminical culture, and, infact it is an attack on brahminical culture. The thing that we establish Krsna consciousness all over the world and cant get across to anyone, why? Because you have destroyed brahminical culture More people joined, and took part in this and knew about us when we followed it even in a simple way and we werent really expert at it than today where we are so sophisticated and remove it. No one joins in America, they have 50 temples and 25 GBC nothing is going on there. If it is going on there then it is because of an individual, thats all, one or two people. Thats it. Everywhere else in the world it is starting to happen because they are willing to follow it a little bit more. Its just obvious, you can see it right in front of your eyes, and they have been hooing and hawing and posturing and doing their so many plannings and this and that for the last ten years, nothing. In other places you just apply Krsna consciousness and try to follow our standards and it happens. If we are being real practical and being really pratyaksa-vadis that if I dont see it then it doesnt exist. Then lets look at it, so the point is I cant see therefore the yatra doesnt exist. We cant even talk our own culture in America, it is against the rules and then they say that they are spreading Krsna consciousness. If they were smart then they would look where it is working. I remember there was a whole thing in America, a whole down on the guru thing. Then they were wondering why America is going down, down, down, and in other places of the world were flourishing, opening hundreds of temples making thousands of devotees, at the same time then one of the senior man he went around and was studying all these yatras and he came back to the GBC and said its because they have faith in guru. So they made a joke, so that we should declare this to Europe, the guru, and try to, nothing ever happened. Therefore it is in the same state. Its just if you follow Krsna consciousness it works and people like it. If you dont follow it it doesnt work, its very simple. Devotee (1): There is instances in our movement of devotees leaving their bodies in very auspicious ways suggesting that they are going back to Godhead in spite of the fact they were not following varnasrama.

Maharaja: And then when they left their body what were they doing? Devotee (1): Surrounded by devotees, chanting the holy name. Maharaja: So then there they were just chanting Hare Krsna. So what worked. So everybody then when that person left, the kirtans continued and everybody thought this is great and this person revived our kirtana spirit and so therefore, whats his name, the servant, I cant remember his name, when he left they did a kirtana still going on now. And in LA when Sudama left the kirtana is still going on. Thats my point. As soon as the guy dies the kirtana stopped. There is no reason we couldnt be kirtana like that all the time. But they got to go home, hang out with their family, make out with their wife and children, watch the television. They got to do all that. and they are doing it. If you are just chanting, go for it. But they are hanging out with their kids, buying curtains and rugs and little chachkas to put on their table. So where is the culture and Krsna consciousness for that? How do they decide what chadchka to buy to put on their little table? Thats my point, its going on, therefore all this talk is just talk, it is nice talk, great talk, but just talk. Because when they all leave that temple room or all leave that meeting, when they walk out the door what do they do, is it just chanting japa? No, they go out and just engage in their normal activities, just as everybody else does, another face in the crowd, as Prabhupada told Guru-krpa, another face in the crowd. It doesnt match. Why would they be against something that works so well? The Indian and oriental families are so tight, the Westerners are dying for that, but I you tell them this is how you do that No! You have to be responsible. No! You have to perform some sacrifice. No! You have to be there for them. No! I want to do what I want! Old Frank Sinatra song: I do it my way, they want to be able to sing that song, but that is absolute illusion. The things that they want to do destroys what they want. They are eating their cake and they want a prize at the show for it and then if you cant get them both then there is something wrong with somebody that is not me, it must be God. How come He made it that I cant eat the cake and also have it? It is Gods fault not my fault. So this is what we are looking at: It is absolute total illusion on what makes things work, abolsute speculative method, why speculative, because they dont have religion. They wouldnt know: man this, woman this, kid this, rights why does he have right? Where does this concept of right come from? It came from God and not from America. There were no rights before America? Amazing, Magna Carta was written 1000 years ago. There was no America then. Where does the concept of right come from, what is right and wrong? What is good? It comes from God, thats the problem. If one thinks that he is God then one wants to make up the rules. All this stuff is very unpalatable because it is hitting right at the core of the thing, they want to argue around the edge: American against Indian culture. They dont want to argue that you are going against Vedic culture because you have an atheistic mentality, that no one wants to hear about. They want to solve the world by solving the little things on the outside. We want to get rid of all the boils by blowing on them. They cant go right to the heart, because of the ego and ignorance and that. Therefore Krsna says dont disturb the minds of the ignorant, therefore we keep quiet. So as long as they leave us alone who cares what they do, but if they bother us and say that we cant do this then we have trouble. As long as they are in the positions we got more trouble. The best part about it is that because they are not following any culture they cant maintain those positions. The sophists could get Sokrates because they would still follow some culture. At least materially they could function and spiritually not. But nowadays they dont have any idea of culture therefore they cant maintain any position. They cant be effective in anything material therefore it is just a matter of time before they disappear.

Devotee(1): On rights, the UN declares that every human is entitled to shelter, food, love and affection Maharaja: What is shelter that they cant define. They just say shelter. Life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. But whats life? Otherwise why are telling people other people that are seemingly alive get a life? Life, liberty, whats liberty? What the pursue of happiness? How do they know how to be happy? I get some genetically engineered potatoes, deep-fried and some other synthetic thing and put some synthetic ketch-up on it, that is called pursuit of happiness. You can do that but we are offering something beyond that, could you even cook that yourself? The average devotee if you handed him a sack of potatoes, a bottle of oil, and some tomatoes and some spices and say make some fries and ketchup could they do it? No. But you can hand the same thing to any Asian and they can cook it. When I went to China everyone can cook. There is somebody who is a better cook and more special in things, but everybody can cook. In India they can cook doesnt matter where they are, eating is going on. We are sitting there dying on the train, and the Indians are getting out this huge program is happening there, plates and everything, and all the little condements and all the different things, as if they are sitting in their house. And we are just barely making it to the toilette. Thats how we can get it together. Then they have the audacity to say pursuit of happiness. Cooking at home, eating at Dominos. Cooking at home, eating at MacDonalds. Eating at home, eating at Kentucky Fried Chicken. What are they replacing it with? And they are not smart enough to see that this is the direction it goes, you follow this culture then this is where it goes. No one can cook that means that no one gets anything good to eat. Pursuit of happiness means some good food. What pursuit of happiness do they have? Even they are saying these things what pursuit of obtaining have they got? Devotee (1): Mother Yamuna told me a story about her and Prabhupada, can I share it? She said the first time she met Prabhupada in New York. She was just wearing a tank top and a mini skirt and they were working in the kitchen together. Prabhupada told her to make a medium hard dough and she said I dont know how to make one. He asked her how old are you? She said 25. He says you are 25, every 5 year old girl in India can make a medium hard dough. Maharaja: Yes, so thats the point. They dont know. And Prabhupada was so expert, he is a man, he could put the flour and pour in the exact amount of water at once. He just pour the water in until the middle and then its dough, not too hard, not too soft, thats practice, he has made a lot of dough. So its unfortunate. The mum cant cook and then what is her relationship with the kid, the kids are on anna-maya, anna food, the kids in food mode and the mother doesnt know how to cook. What is their relationship? The kid digs her tank top or mini skirt? Is that what it is? Where is the relationship? And then they are talking about old-fashion. They are just another species of life and they are saying that they are somehow or another in the loop? Because people today still know the same traditions and it still works for them today. They say old-fashion doesnt work, there are still people in India who cook, people in Asia who cook, and everything goes nice. People in Europe can cook. People anywhere in the world can cook and it still works for them and their family, and the kids are still alike. There are people even in America who can cook apple pie, its not that only Horn and Hardert makes it. The kids of that family are happy. The people who cant cook are the ones that are saying that. I cant find someone who is an expert cook saying that it is old-fashioned

and knows how to cook. Is Yamuna devi no girls should know how to cook she should just go to school and do academics and get a degree, and get a job? People who do not have any understanding, skill, or knowledge in the area they are the ones complaining about it. The Goswamis gave something up. They were top-grade brahmanas doing top-grade stuff. Sanatana Goswami was the prime minister of Navab Hussain Shaw who is the manager of Bengal. Do you know what Bengal meant at those days? It meant anything east of Bihar, Madhya-pradesa and Andra-pradesa. That meant Bengal, east and west or now its Bangladesh, Orissa, Asam, and all those way out of the way places up there, that was Bengal. And he was out conquering, possibly even went into Burma because Burma was part of the whole scene over here. So Bengal just meant that side, vama, just left. Because the vastu-purusa lays this way, so its left side is Bengal. Sanatana Goswami manages that when the Navab is out. And the Navab is not coming back and say every time I go it turns into a mess how can I go anywhere? Just the opposite, its so well managed he can go out and campaign his whole life and know Sanatana will run it. And then from all that he is going out and collecting everything and conquering all that wealth, who manages that wealth? That was Rupa Goswami. So he had total trust and these guys were following everything perfectly. They gave that up, that is Goswami. To not know Vedic culture, to not be able to cook, not know how to dress, and not know how to do any of that stuff and to say that it is not important, that is not a strong position. Other people who are in the same position may consider you a leader but you are a leader amongst those people, but you are not a leader when it comes to human culture, the Vedic culture. (end) September 30, 2008 Maharaja: Another element that is important in varnasrama is understand its standing within the whole concept. The original and central feature or point is the Bhagavata. Meaning, what is directly connected with the Lord, devotional service. That is on the transcendental platform. Krsna mentions that as your first option: For a living entity best to surrender unto Him completely, right now, just do it. That is the best option, if you cant do that then He says follow the rules and regulations of sadhana-bhakti, that introduces your Pancaratra. Because Pancaratra is Bhagavata but in the form of rules, that natural spontaneity is not there, you have to through practice generate that natural spontaneity. Then if you cant do that means what you can do means what you can do effectively, completely so surrender to Krsna completely means then you have surrendered 100%, body mind and words are 100% engaged in the Bhagavata-process therefore you only need the Bhagavata. If that doesnt work then to engage body, mind and words completely you have the Bhagavata plus the Pancaratra. If that keeps you completely engaged, the Deity worship, and all the different aspects that you will be doing worship for the Deity, plus the hearing Bhagavatam, chanting, sankirtana, harinama that kind of aspects, if that keeps you busy then that is all you require. If that doesnt keep you fully engaged there are still distractions then you add varnasrama. When you are dealing with varnasrama then you are dealing with Bhagavata, Pancaratra and varnasrama. It is not that when you deal with Pancaratra there is no Bhagavata and when you deal with Vedic there is no Pancaratra or Bhagavata. So this idea that it becomes the yuga-dharma since when did anyone anywhere ever say that varnasrama is the yuga-dharma? They say yuga-dharma is Hare Krsna! So yes so? The yuga-dharma was something else in Dvapara, did they follow varnasrama? In Treta there was

something else did they follow varnasrama. In Satya. Varna-asrama is always being followed. That is always going on. Now it is a matter of what is the yuga-dharma. So you are practicing the culture of varnasrama but your meditation is your prominent thing. Or culture of varnasrama and yajna, sacrifice is the main thing. Or practicing varnasrama and Deity worship, Pancaratra is the main thing. Or in this age harinama-sankirtana. So it is something different. Like Caitanya-caritamrta is the culture of someone who follows Bhagavatam. Lord Caitanya is a preacher of Bhagavata therefore what is His lifestyle, what is the lifestyle of His devotees? That is Caitanya-caritamrta. The Vedic culture is the lifestyle for those who are trying to elevate themselves through the authority of the Vedic literatures. It is not that it replaces it. So that means we are really not understanding. If we are making our argument that, this is the yuga-dharma. That means the yuga-dharma is it breathing? Is it taking food? Living in a house? That is the yuga-dharma? So why are we doing it? We only chant Hare Krsna. We have to be able to accommodate many things at once. There is spiritual variety. This lack of being able to accept spiritual variety is our contamination of impersonalism. We come with that. So now it is a matter of getting rid of it. It is not a problem to come with it that is understood. You get a dog it come with flees, that is not the problem. The problem is keeping the anartha of this impersonal understanding, keeping not being able to distinguish spiritual variety, and even worse than maintaining attachment to it is professing it. You have it you are attached to, it is understandable it has been with you for a long time. Like an old shirt, you really like it, it is very comfortable, it looks like a rag but it is very comfortable. It is impersoanlism and we have had it for a long time. Means if you are still here, you still think you are God. When you stop thinking you are God then you are not here any more. Like in an insane asylum, if you are crazy then you are there, when you are not crazy then you are not there. Or the jail, as long as you a criminal you are there and when you are not a criminal then you are not there. As long as you are thinking that I am the controller and enjoyer then we are here, when we give that up then we are not here any more. The impersonalist still thinks that I am God. They dont have the gross forms of it of the material sphere, but the subtle is still there. You can be on the transcendental platform and still be thinking that you are God, that is vasudeva-sattva, the concept is still there. Every living entity before coming into the material world is in that state. It is also known as the mahat, the place is the mahat, the mahat-tattva, the consciousness is vasudeva-sattva. You are on the platform of Vasudeva and understand transcendence but you still think that you are that Vasudeva, that is the problem. Devotee (1): On the vasudeva-sattva one can see Krsna. Maharaja: Yes, one can see Krsna. On the liberated platform there are two positions: that of the devotee and that of the non-devotee. That of the non-devotee is called liberation and that of the devotee is called brahma-bhuta. The devotee will see Krsna as Bhagavan and the Nondevotee will see Him as Brahman. The four Kumaras He is just Brahman but when they smell the tulasi leaves then they are able to distinguish within Brahman that there are differences. In the Brahman concept it is all one, but in the personal Brahman understanding you can distinguish variety within the oneness. The devotees position in vasudeva-sattva is progressive, for the impersonalists or nondevotees it is not progressive, it is just the state they end up every time Maha-Visnu breathes out. They go through that momentarily before everything is created, they are in that state.

The state of impersonalism and voidism these are always tasted by the living entities: every time He breathes in it is voidism when He breathes out then it is impersonalism. Then after that he moves into the material world, the karma. So this raga, bhaya, and krodha, the living entity is always in these fields. Now we are in the field of raga, or attachment. Then you go upset with that and become impersonal, when that doesnt work for you either because it doesnt work, then you go Buddhistic. You decided to throw everything out. Impersonal means you throw out form, rasa, relationship, interaction. Buddhism means you throw even that out, whats left that I am Brahman because that didnt give you any satisfaction either. So they throw everything out but technically speaking they go back to karma, because they are into sense gratification. So when we say karma and jnana it is not included. Yoga is included in karma, and Buddhism is included in karma. They just have the touch of the jnana, but they are in that place because they are active, or they want to enjoy. You can expand them in karma, jnana and yoga or the karma, jnana and voidism. So personalism, impersonalism, voidism you got these categories. When we talk about varnasrama that is not properly being performed we are talking about the asuric. Because what is the improper performance? Not that the rules are not being followed, that it is not connected to Krsna. When we can distinguish variety in the spiritual then we can understand that we can practice Bhagavata, pancaratrika and Vedic at the same time. Why are we doing it? Because we are conditioned and we are trying to come to the constitutional position. To say that you are not this body that is alright but you still think you are. Rsabhdeva does not think he is this body, Sukadeva does not think he is this body. So go for it. As long as we are conditioned these three are considered. In other words, how much you can depend on the Bhagavata you would do why you would less? Why would you depend on any other mantras than the Hare Krsna mantra? Then what that doesnt take up then you fill up as much of the space that is not taken up by the Bhagavata with Pancaratra. Then what little but is left that you fill in with the Vedic. As the Vedic is not so important any more as we become purified then you move back to the pancaratrika, if that is not important then you move back to the Bhagavata. Thats the idea it is not that it replaces! It doesnt replace. It is just part of life, the culture, because it is the reflection of the spiritual culture. But because the people in the material world want the spiritual realm and they want to be God in that they get the material realm and they get some form of it. Therefore varnasrama is also here that can be practiced in the form that is not spiritual. Just as we have senses here, we have a mind, we have intelligence and we have a body. We also have one in the spiritual platform. But this one cant do spiritual activities or material. In the same way varnasrama, the culture of the spiritual world, could be used spiritually or not. Devotee (2): I am clear on mechanics behind conditioned nature. So the conditioned nature does it reside within the subtle body and then simultaneously in Gita sys we are helpless to act according to the modes of nature that we have acquired. So technically why does a dog act like a dog or a woman like a woman or a man like a man? Maharaja: It is in the consciousness of the living entity, thats why we went through the five stages of consciousness. That consciousness that being established then if it is transcendental then there is no material consideration. As we come down into the other levels then that becomes what is more prominent. Anna-maya means the senses are most prominent for you Prana-maya means others, these isms are more prominent

Mano-maya means the dharma is more prominent Vijnana-maya means being freed from material contamination is more prominent Ananda-maya means devotion to the Lord is more prominent

Devotee (2): The soul has only two choices to accept God or to reject. So the five levels of consciousness dont exist solely on the platform of the soul then? Maharaja: Accepting God means ananda-maya not accepting God means the other four. In other words, you are following a reflection, but this reflection is illusory. There is a real tree and an illusory tree. We are facing the illusory tree and trying to deal with it like a tree but we consider it as our tree and we can do with it as we want. Therefore we have been given that tree because it is not your tree. The real tree belongs to someone else, the fruits and flowers are for them and we can assist in that. If we want to call it our own tree then have it, go for it, there it is but thats all it is, its an illusion. You have accepted the illusion but the illusion is a complete package. Om purnah adah purnah idam, everything is complete. Its whole environment is complete, so the mundane is complete. Therefore you are fully absorbed in seemingly fully satisfied. But you cant be because you are soul and you cant function in something that is not based on the soul. Devotee (2): Where did the modes of nature come into play? Maharaja: The modes of nature are sandhini, samvit and hladini perverted. Everything in the spiritual world is sac-cid-ananda so that means everything here has to be goodness, passion and ignorance. Sat in the spiritual world, the basis is eternity, here it is ignorance, things are temporary and ignorant, that is the basis. There it is happiness in service to Krsna in prema. Here it is in trying to please ones own senses, obtaining ones material desire. Since you are based in the eternal and you serve in the eternal therefore your activities are also in the eternal, the devotion. While here in the material world since you think you are this body and are engaged in your own sense gratification your activities are that of sense gratification. So it just reflects. The whole idea is we are trying to give up the attachment to the reflection here and attach ourselves to the actual position. Thats all we are trying to do. But we are very determined. Like something happened and so I feel humbled in a certain situation so that being humbled in that situation and there I accept I am not in control but then other situations I think I still am. Or I accept one part of the philosophy but not another part, therefore all the philosophy, hearing it again and again, the practice of it and application of it in various aspects. Because people think they are the body and it is very important to them therefore you have to have Ayurveda, otherwise why do you need Ayurveda. Because they have something to say and what they have to say may not be useful, therefore you have logic. Because they have different perspective how they want to see this world because they dont want to see it in connection with Krsna, therefore you have mimamsa, your philosophy. So that you will follow the example of those you have followed a practice or elevating path therefore you have Purana. You have to communicate therefore you have Sanskrit. Since you are in this world therefore you are going to purify yourself therefore you have to have samskaras, and sacrifice, yajna. That yajna, how do you determine what is the proper time therefore you have astrology. And all this is based on the Veda. The devotees use the same thing to elevate themselves to the transcendental platform which is the origin of all this stuff anyway. The pious materialist uses the same material for getting a better situation in the material world, they are coming close to the actual direct reflection. Those who dont want to follow it they are acting in even a perversion of the reflection, so perverted reflection. It is already perverted in that we think we are God. Mothers are there, fathers are there, children are

there, houses are there, wealth is there, position is there, everything is there, like in the Vedic culture, it looks just like in the spiritual world. But it is perverted because it is not centered around Krsna, it is centered around ourselves, but it looks exactly the same. And then if you dont follow the Vedic culture then even the form of it, the reflection is perverted. Then it becomes a perverted perversion. Everyone wants the ideal in the material world but they are not willing to follow the process to get it, they wanted it just because they want it. Like little kids they throw a tantrum, I want it, and so therefore they figure because they yell and scream, and stump their feet, hold their breath, turn blue or do something that thats going to get it for them. Even though they are decorated with terms like PhD still that doesnt mean they are not like little kids throwing a tantrum, just because they want it. No, you have to follow the Vedic rules to get it. It doesnt matter who you are. You may be a big, big man or a criminal you walk in a shop and want something you pay the price and get the goods. It is not that I am the congress man so why do I have to pay, or I am the thief so why should I pay? No. You have goods you pay. You get the goods. You want wealth, you want knowledge, you want these things, so you have to perform pious activities. If you dont then you are stealing, and then what happens when you steal, you have it now but then you lose it later. You got it through proper means then it takes you a little longer to get it but when you have it you keep it. They can elevate themselves through improper methods, they can do it, but what will be the long-term result? When devotees having come from the material sphere into Krsna consciousness, tried that, possibly in a way where they were not very knowledgeable in what they were doing, so certain aspects they didnt apply very well, so then they rejected it and went back to whatever crap they were living before. And then how will it take that it wont give them any satisfaction like it didnt give them any satisfaction before they became a devotee. Once that happens what do they have left because they have no alternative. The intelligent thing is I tried something and it didnt work so well therefore I try it again with better application, that is how any intelligent man in this world has become successful. Non-successful people try it and it doesnt work then they throw out the whole thing out. He tried business and it didnt work therefore he threw it all out and therefore economics is bogus. We tried varnasrama but it doesnt work it is bogus, it doesnt apply in this age. I tried the business but it didnt work, therefore business is bogus. What about the guy who is the billionaire, he is laughing at you. So what you have a PhD in economics and you still dont know what you are doing. Name me one business with a PhD in economics, there arent any, even they know dont even bother going passed MA. You hire a MBA. You dont hire anyone with a PhD in economics. They teach it at the university but they cannot do business. If they could why would they be working at a university? They are telling you billion plans what you can do but they cant do them. Therefore in the modern school you say: if you cant do the activity then teach it. If you cant teach it then teach the teachers. Therefore those who are teaching those things they cant do them. Those who are really pontificated they cant even do that. Devotee (2): In defense could you say they get more pleasure out of the intellectual stimulation rather than? Maharaja: Intellectual stimulation yes, but then they shouldnt be speaking against economics. In other words, they have faith in it there, but I am talking about those who dont. So we crossed lines there.

Because in the Vedic its those who can do they teach, not the one who cant. Like you always hear the stories that the kings priest went off and was doing this yajna, or this great sage was doing this yajna. People who can do something they are the ones. Someone who can administrate they are the administrator. It is not a matter of he has been around longer, or he is a Prabhupada disciple or any of that stuff. No, he who can manage manages. He is a Prabhupada disciple, then be a Prabhupada disciple. Thats what he is expert at being a Prabhupada disciple, who said he is a great manager? So what have the two got to do with each other? Senior means management? Means what is the conditioned nature of this Prabhupada disciple he should be engaged according to that. Giving the Bhagavatam class, leading the preaching, all those things then that is great. But what has that got to do with this? So the point is to have the intelligence to distinguish these things. Because people dont want to use their intelligence to distinguish. Because no one wants to be the sudra. No one wants to be the dependent. No one wants to be on the bottom. Everyone wants to be on the top. What is that called? Where this that mentality come from? Everyone wants to be God. There is one God and everybody else is his servant, but everybody in the material world wants to be God. Therefore there is the competition here. Prabhupada always talks about competition. Because everyone is trying to be in the same position. In the spiritual world that competition is that no one is triyng to take someone elses position but they are trying to do their service better than the other person does their service, no one is trying to take it. But here everyone is trying to be God and so everyone is trying to take each others position. In other words, intelligence, if we claim to be intelligent, the modern man claims that he is intelligent and not sentimental. But we find there is a great lack of intelligence because he cant discriminate. One they cant tell the difference between various gross and subtle material, they cant tell the difference between subtle material and spiritual, and they cant tell the difference within spiritual. So how are they intelligent? How is it real intelligence? Its like that story, you have the boatman and then you have the scholar, and then the boat is sinking. And the scholar had already asked the boatman do you know astrology or these kind of things, he said no. A quarter of your life is wasted. He said do you know logic and all that, he said no. Half of your life is wasted. And then its starts to rain and the boat is sinking and then the boatman asks the scholar do you know how to swim. He says no. He says 100% of your life is wasted. So Prabhupada is making the point is that what may be knowledgeable but if you dont know Krsna consciousness, you dont have faith in Krsna, in Krsnas words, His instructions. Krsna says I have nothing to do, I have nothing to do in this world. But I do things. And how does He do it? Just what He pleases? He follows varnasrama because He wrote varnasrama. Manu-samhita is the main dharma-sastra. That is the knowledge that Brahma gave to his sons and that was being spoken by them. Brahma says that he got it from Visnu. When Visnu comes then He follows what he speaks. That is what God does and how does He do it? He does it without attachment. All that God is asking you to do is that if you want to associate with Him, when He is in this material world He follows varnasrama without attachment, therefore if you want to be with Him then you follow it without attachment. He is devoted to His devotees and you are devoted to Him, then you are on the same level. Otherwise how do non-equals interact? If you are not on the transcendental platform that God is on how can you interact with Him? Therefore in puja you have yoga before ija, to bring yourself to the transcendental platform then you can worship. Discrimination is very important. If we dont have discrimination then we will never be able to apply the philosophy very well.

The varnasrama is the natural culture between transcendental personalities, it is the natural form. In Vrndavana you have the vaisyas they maintain brahmanas. They pay tax to the ksatriyas in Mathura and they have so many sudras that assist them. You have people that are unmarried. Krsna and the cowherd boys, the young ones are unmarried. The older gopis and cowherd men they are married. You always have renunciates and sadhus, saintly persons coming into Vrndavana, now and again you hear of them in the pastimes, so whats that? Is that varnasrama or varnasrama? But it is all for Krsnas pleasure therefore it is daivi-varnasrama. In Vraja that daivivarnasrama is still in the form of spontaneous devotional service, while in Vaikuntha it is in regulated devotional service, that is the difference. There it is the medium so they play with it. In Vrndavana it is simply the culture that they use, therefore Madhumangala with joke that while Bharata Muni, and they quote all the scriptures, they are in Vrndavana and they are talking about Bharata Munis natya-sastra. They are talking about Bhagavad-gita, dharmasastra, artha-sastra, kama-sastra, moksa-sastra, Upanisads. They talk about all of them in Vrndavana. So madhumangala is saying that while they are eating lunch Bharata Muni talks of 8 bhavas, the sattvika-bhavas. But in my opinion there is only 6, they are using it as a medium for pleasing Krsna. Then he is saying that when I see the prasada that mother Yasoda has cooked my hair stand on end and when it is served to me then my voice chokes up and when I taste it then my whole body is stunned. It goes like this through all the different bhavas, they use it as a medium, it is purely to please Krsna. That is what it is being asked here: use the varnasrama to engage those aspects of your nature that you are not being engaged by Bhagavata or pancaratrika in Krsnas service just like the vrajabasis do. But since we are not on that transcendental platform therefore we use it according to rules and regulations, thats all. Transcendental, spontaneous. Not transcendental, not spontaneous. Within sadhana-bhakti, in other words, sadhana and sadhya. Sadhya is they are perfected and sadhana is trying to attain perfection. Within that there will be its natural form or its regulated form. We have to be able to tell these distinctions then varnasrama makes a lot of sense, all it is is keeping you busy whatever you do. I would say that the devotee who is even making the concept that we are only chanting Hare Krsna wouldnt even be able to identify how 80% of his life is Pancaratra, they wouldnt be able to identify that, neither would they be able to identify the mantras. We only chant Hare Krsna. That means you dont chant your Gayatri? I chant my Gayatri. But did you know that your Gayatri is a Vedic and pancaratrika Gayatris. There is no Bhagavata Gayatris, that means you have mantras in all three, and then you are going to bash the Vedic. The reason because you were a thread is not because of Pancaratra or Bhagavata it is because of Vedic. The brahmana thread goes with the Brahma-gayatri, it doesnt go with the other gayatris. Because the brahmanas are initiated with upanayana when the brahma gayatri therefore they were the brahmana thread. So if you are really only into chanting Hare Krsna then take off your brahmana thread, keep the neck beads that is gaudiya but the brahmana thread that is Vedic. They wont do that because then the new bhaktas will think that they are just another devotee. You wear just pure white, you wouldnt wear any colors because you are not involved in any things, you wouldnt wear saffron and you wouldnt wear other colors, the grhasthas wear so many colors, you wouldnt wear that either. You wear just pure white, no brahmana thread, your tilak, your neck beads and you just chant. Chant, preach, study Bhagavatam and

take prasada with devotees, thats all you do. If you can do that you cant get better than that. But if that is not what you are doing then kindly drop the improper presentation. Because the point is they are following all these things: you get up in the morning, you are offering obeisances that is Pancaratra. That you roll up your bed that is Pancaratra. That you go to the toilette and clean yourself afterwards that is Pancaratra. Mlecchas dont clean themselves, so if we are being really modern then they should all go back to toilette paper and probably a lot of them do. Then you brush your teeth, then you clean your tongue that is also Pancaratra. Brushing your teeth the doctor recommends it. Cleaning the tongue they havent quite figured it out, some have figured it out therefore I dont do it because I dont even know about it, but most of their stomach problems go away if they clean their tongue. Then after that rinsing your mouth properly then taking their bath that is Pancaratra. Then they dry themselves, that is Pancaratra. If you have a blow dryer that is not Pancaratra, but you have something that you wipe your hands with that is Pancaratra. Because if you blow dry then it is still dirty because otherwise you havent taken the dirt off from a bath, all these different things that is Pancaratra. Then you have neck beads, you wear your brahmana thread, your clothes, your tilaka, say acamana and do Gayatri, after putting tilaka you check yourself and look in the mirror these are Pancaratra. You go to the temple, you ring the bell, you offer obeisances, you say the spiritual masters name, that is Pancaratra. You go to mangala-aratika that is Pancaratra, that you worship the Deity is Pancaratra, you have gurupuja that is Pancaratra, that at a regulated time you have the Bhagavatam class that is Pancaratra, chanting japa at a regulated time that is Pancaratra. If you chant all day that is Bhagavata, but if you chant this is I chant here and there that is Pancaratra. You study the scriptures, you take care of the guests that is Pancaratra. You serve the devotees, you serve tulasi, you take prasada, you live in the dhama, you serve the dhama, that is Pancaratra. You do some particular service for the Deity, that is Pancaratra. What happened to family life? It is not there. You could be doing that, you could be a grhastha but that is not the pancaratrika aspect. What I have described that is Pancaratra. Preparing things for the Deity, cooking for the Deity, getting paraphernalia, making clothes, outfits, ornaments, altars, the different facilities, that is all Pancaratra. What is missing now? We got chanting Hare Krsna, all the Deity worship, we have our lifestyle that they wouldnt be able to identify that all that is Pancaratra. They would have said that all that is Bhagavata. No, that is Pancaratra. What is left? Your whole family life scene, your whole social scene, your whole management scene, your whole email scene, that falls within Vedic. Now just as for Deity worship you follow the rules of Pancaratra, then in all the other things you follow the rules of varnasrama. To not follow that is cheating, to say it doesnt apply is like who said it doesnt apply? Just like the criminal says the laws of the land dont apply, then what happens to them? They get caught and put in jail, so it is cheating. It Is Gods creation, it is Gods nature. The trees still do the same thing as they did 5000 years ago, the dogs, the birds, the beasts, the cats. Cats still meow, dogs still bark, what changed? The ladies have the babies, the men dont. Kids are smaller than parents. Old people get grey hair. Men grow beards women dont, what has changed? You still put your food in your mouth, breath through your nose, still have lunges, heart, kidney, liver, spleen, they are all there so what has changed? All that has changed is their perception. In other words their philosophy, their mimamsa, their interpretation of the sastra and the laws of God that is whats changed. But the actual laws and the facility to perform them is still there, all you have to do is see through that vision. Just like previously even in the Vedic age not that many people were necessarily committed dynamic devotees. So in the same now, it is the same now so there will be less people.

Prabhupada said 1% of the planet of the human population is practicing Krsna consciousness, then you are dealing with Satya-yuga. 1% we are not saying 100%, we are saying 1%. Oh there is not the facility. Back in the 60s how many vegetarians were there? Devotee (2): A lot less. Maharaja: A lot less. Hippies were vegetarians otherwise the mainstream culture what you buy in the shop, in the supermarket was not vegetarian. Nowadays you have supermarkets that now all is vegetarian and organic, whole supermarkets, sometimes even as big or bigger than the other ones, there is more facility. The common person has heard of Eastern philosophy. Speaking philosophy in about sadhana, karma these are common words in peoples vocabulary. In the movies they mention it, this happened to you that is your karma. Two karmis in a karmi movie talking about karma. In the 60s they havent heard of it, it is some weird thing that some bohemians or a few hippies say. Hippies with a little bigger vocabulary than cool, you know what I mean dude, you know what I mean, yeah I know what you mean, you know what I mean, yeah ok, yeah I agree with what you mean, yeah its so cool. That was a very intellectual conversation between hippies, if you have 25 words you are doing good. So that karma to that, thats 26. Then they are saying it is harder to preach now, there is more facility there is more everything. You have yoga centers they are already chanting Hare Krsna and its got nothing to do with us. There is more people in America outside our temples chanting Hare Krsna than what we are arranging for people to chant Hare Krsna. We chant in our temples but outside our temples whats going on that is being arranged as a congregation by karmis not us, what is this? It is so difficult. You just have to go in and talk about chanting and what it means, what is yoga and what it means, what are the different levels of yoga, what is sadhana, karma, predestiny. You can walk in and use our vocabulary and they are on the same page. And then it doesnt fit, oh we have to fit in, they are fitting into us but we are fitting into them. I was at Heathrow Airport I had a grandma coming up to me and asked me about Ayurveda and the 3 dosas that you have a pita, kapha or vata body and so there is one Ayurvedic doctor there who is giving seminars and she is talking about diets for these different things and she was asking me is this bona fide or is this bogus. A 60 year old English lady dressed as an English lady, and she is asking me because she thinks he is some kind of Indian sadhu and that is this bona fide? Ayurveda is from India so is this guy ok so what he is saying that is ok, and we got to fit in. That is the problem: if we dont have faith in this then how is it going to work? Bhagavad-gita is starting about perform your prescribed duties. Who defines prescribed duties, God or the masses? That is the point, even Bhagavad-gita is starting with this premise. Mahabharata it is even taking it it is for the women, children, friend of the twice-born, but where is it starting? On dharma. If you cant accept that then you are lower than the kids because the kids are at least human. Therefore we go back to yesterdays point of the tribals, in this case specifically the Germanic tribals. Devotee (3): Demigods and demons all follow varnasrama? Maharaja: They all follow. Everybody in the universe on all the planetary systems follow it, even on the earthly planetary system of the seven mandalas, the other six all follow it. On this one they should be following it. They do for 3 ages but in this age they prefer not to, just because they want to live like animals. So that is always that you can live like a cultured person or you cannot, the choice is yours, so they all follow varnasrama.

Varna-asrama simply means that one is according to the inherent nature of each living entity, what inspires them, what is their goals, what are therefore the methods that they find pleasing that you deal with other people according to that, that is all it is saying. A brahmana is intellectual, he follows sadhana, he is into purity therefore you discuss with him and deal with him on that platform, that is varnasrama. You take intellectual as valuable therefore you deal with him in that way. The ksatriya is prowess, his dharma and all these things. Thats what is important so you deal with him on that. He thinks he is a big guy. The king is going down the road you move out of the way why? Brahmana doesnt have to move it is his road. The king should ask his permission to use the road. But because the king thinks he is a big guy and therefore he is going with this whole retinue therefore you let him pass. Kids are nuts they think they are the center of attention therefore that is how you deal with them. They think if I dont eat right now I am going to die therefore you feed them now. When there is little more brain that they can understand I like to eat now but I know I am not going to die then you can start talking to him about regulation. So you are dealing with every entity according to its nature. A brick has a nature what it can do. It will hold up a building and wont cut your potatoes. Everything has a nature, there is nothing that has not got an inherent nature. Water is wet we use it with things that we like to make wet. Fire is hot so we use it with things that we want make hot. So if we use fire to cool something or water to make something warm then we got a problem. So you have to find the nature of something, that is varnasrama-dharma. All it is is giving the detail of it because it is a human being who is operating you start from there: Who are you? If you can understand who you are then you can understand who others are. When you can understand who others are then you can understand your relationship. Those who can understand what is their proper relationship between myself and others they can then lead that. If you lead that then you deal with even bigger than just all the levels of humans but also beyond that: your economics, your justice, your sense gratification, your forest, your animals, your birds. Then the whole point is that in that they must elevate themselves to the point of Krsna consciousness. Leadership has to look at dharma, artha, kama and moksa and bhakti for everybody. That is what varnasrama is, very simple: what is the inherent nature in something, but devotees will take it. King where is the crown carries around a big sword, or a AK47, that makes him a ksatriya. No, he has an inherent nature that makes him a ksatriya. Yudhisthira Maharaja in the forest in deer skins is still a ksatriya, no crown no nothing still he is a ksatriya. That was Krsnas point to Arjuna you give it all up you still act the way you act. Even if someone says I only chant Hare Krsna they are still going to act according to their nature. (end of lecture) Maharaja: Any doubts or questions on this piece of paper here bring it up now because when we move on I would not like to have to deal with any doubts or misgivings on this. If there is something that you feel that varnasrama hasnt got anything to do with devotional service bring it up before we get to Bhagavad-gita. Because that is all it is going to talk about, is how to perform your varnasrama duties with proper transcendental knowledge to please Krsna. So this is the time for it, any of those kind of things, any formulas that dont seem to make sense, you dont understand how it connects to Krsna or why it should connect to Krsna, why it should be part of our life. This is the time. So there is still a lot of other thing but. (end)

October 2, 2008 Maharaja: Creation There is the spiritual world, there is the material world. In the spiritual world you have Goloka Vrndavana and you have the Vaikuntha planets. Goloka Vrndavana taking up 51% of the spiritual world. The spiritual world is three quarters of the cosmic creation, the material world is one quarter. Of that three quarters Goloka Vrndavana is 51% of three quarters. In the material world you have the Causal Ocean, which is the Viraja, it is also an expansion of the Yamuna river. Karanodakasayi Visnu lays on that, from his pores when he breathes out, from his breathing from his pores come unlimited universes which are very small like mustard seeds. Those float on the Causal Ocean, that is why the Viraja is considered outside the universe because they are all on the ocean. Then He expands and enters as Garbhodakasayi Visnu because garbha means conception. So the universe He fills it up half with water, He lays on that water. Because He lays on that water He is known as Narayana. From his navel grows the lotus and He does the whole primary creation in which all the species of life, all the situations within the universe, the planetary systems, the kind of terrain, the waters whatever there is, the stars, the winds, the naksatra, sun, moon, everything. He creates that. From that Brahma takes those blueprints and he does the external manifestation according to the blueprints. Brahma meditates for 1000 years, then having done that then getting darsana of Krsna then gets empowered to create the universe and he creates this universe. Having heard everything from Krsna these Vedas are stolen from him by the mental demons of Madhu and Kaitava so having removed from him the memory of the Vedas he asked Krsna to again speak the Vedas, this then comes as Pancaratra. In 5 days He speaks to him the essence of the Veda. Having spoken all that, spoken the Veda again Brahma asked what is the essence. He gives him the catur-sloki. That catur-sloki then is expanded as the Bhagavatam Then Garbhodakasayi Visnu having created everything in the universe, in the way of the concept, then He enters into it. That entering into that is what makes it alive for us, otherwise it is dead matter, we as souls wouldnt relate to it. He then enters it: One is through energies that is Garbhodakasayi Visnu but then personally He enters in every atom, between every atom, in every heart as the Paramatma in which He guides everything. In other words, our perception of the universe is Garbhodakasayi Visnu, the universal form. But our interaction with that universe that goes on nicely that is because of Paramatma. Paramatma is in the heart, He sanctions or doesnt sanction our actions, the modes of nature then carry that out. So we understand the difference between the three purusas. Devotee (1): Viraja is an expansion of Yamuna? Maharaja: If Karanodakasayi Visnu is an expansion of Balarama in Dwaraka whats the problem if a river comes along also? Devotee (1): So this is sacred river, because there is one other Viraja? Maharaja: No, there is only one Viraja. Devotee (1): What about the one which the conditioned living entities cross? Maharaja: That is Vaitarani, but the Viraja is one. Thats why when Vamanadeva pokes a hole in the universe with His toe then that river comes inside and is known as the Ganges. 14 Books of Vedic knowledge

The Vedic knowledge is classified into 14 books. A book means a subject matter, it doesnt mean a book as such, like its got so many pages and stuff like that. Book means a body of knowledge. The Vedas have categorized all knowledge into these 14 books. There is not a category that doesnt fall into these 14 books, it is just a matter of how these 14 work. The basic categories are: you have 4 Vedas Rg, Yajur, Sama and Atharva. The 6 Vedangas 4 branches of Sanskrit, Kalpa (ritual), astrology or astronomy that would establish times for performance of ritual. The 4 Upangas which is Vedanta or in general Mimamsa (philosophy), Purana (history), Dharma (dharma-sastras), Nyaya (logic). These are the 14 categories. Vedas. There are 4 Vedas, originally they are one, all this is all one and Vyasadeva breaks this up. It is all in the Atharva Veda but all these 14 books are present, all the 4 Vedas are present, everything is there, it is just published in one form. But because it is so vast people wont be able to appreciate it or study it properly in the Kali-yuga so therefore Vyasadeva compiles it and separates each of the books, then it makes it much easier. Then you have Rg, Yajur, Sama and Atharva Vedas, each Veda has four parts. You have the Samhita which is the Veda itself, the verses of the Veda. You have the Brahmanas which are how those verses are used for ritual. You have the Aranyakas what are the metaphysics or subtleties of the ritual and the mantras that are used in the ritual. You have the Upanisads, which is the philosophy of the mantra. You have the mantra itself, how it is used in ritual, what is the meta-physics and what is the philosophy. That is where we get this idea of that we have the activity itself, or our duty in varnasrama, then we have the spiritual or transcendental or bhakti, then we have the metaphysics that connects them both. Because you have the brahmanas, upanisads and the Aranyakas then connect these two, they are the metaphysics of what goes on, how to technically explain it. Otherwise you might find that your understanding might be sentimental if you dont actually know how to connect it and therefore you might not know how to apply it. If you are going to apply it perfectly without knowing the subtleties it works it doesnt matter. But if not then the subtleties are there to make sure that the connection, the proper understanding of the philosophy and the proper understanding of its application is there. From these brahmanas, because it is the ritual there comes also the dharma-sutras and the grha-sutras, that gives rise to the dharma-sutras expand into the dharma-sastras and the grha-sutras turn into your samskaras and other social elements that are covered. Devotee (2): I heard some of the indologists say that the Aranyakas are meant for vanaprasthas, brahmanas for the grhasthas, is there anything to that? Maharaja: Occasionally they get something right. If thats a pillar, its made out of brick, they get that much right. It is not that its meant for them, it would be what would be the main focus. A brahmacari memorizes the Samhita. A grhastha uses the brahmanas in his daily sacrifices etc. and besides that the dharma and grha sutras, he follows the varnasrama and he follows the samskaras. The vanaprastha means he has already been there done that, he lives in the forest. He analyzes what is the metaphysics the subtleties behind it, not for the karmic aspect that if I do that it is pious, what is the metaphysical aspect how does it function, with the idea that from there he takes the step into Upanisads which is the philosophy. Then as a sannyasi he deals with that which is for the purpose of getting out of the world. The brahmanas are the basis of the dharma, the whole varnasrama-system that can be used for elevation either to the heavenly planets, to the Brahman or to the transcendental realm, thats why all your activities come out of there. To ensure that you are doing it and going in

the right direction the metaphysics are there. Then what is the ultimate goal that you are trying to obtain through this that is the Upanisads. Devotee (1): An example of how meta-physics work? Maharaja: Like describing of how the modes of nature work. You just see something going on: boy A gets upset with boy B and then they argue. The modes are at work there because otherwise why is that fight coming up there. Generally because of ego. Why is ego there? Because of the mode of ignorance and because they have their prestige and all that. It is something they want to obtain therefore the mode of passion gives fire to that. Or they already identify with it and then by being insulted then their identity is weakened so since ignorance is the basis of their existence they have to maintain that ignorance so therefore they must get angry. That is your meta-physics. Your dharma is what should be done. If someone comes up like Yudhisthira, someone insults you. You bear that and be forgiving and dont worry about it. Why that is there then you get into the metaphysics. Because you could say you should be humble because a devotee should always be humble, that is there but how do you identify the humility and what is real humility, what is feeling insecure. How do you tell the difference between those? The dharma is not going to point it out and the philosophy is not going to point it out, the metaphysics will. Philosophy can, but its that aspect where it is connecting. In other words how does transcendence have an effect on matter. How does cit affect acit? How does the soul affect matter because they have nothing to do with each other? How does Krsna affect matter though He has nothing to do with it? That is your meta-physics. Devotee (3): All the subtle energies of the creation will be involved with that? Maharaja: All the subtle aspects, just that you go through it it happens like this, but its actual working, that is your metaphysics. We discuss that a lot thats why you mentioned the creation because we always go back to various elements: sleeping in Maha-visnu, the visuddha-sattva element, the gross creation, the subtle creation that is behind everything, that is Krsnas potencies that make it work, at the same time He is separate from that, we are separate from that, the field of action, the five factors of action, all these different things. Devotee (4): Difference between suddha-sattva and visuddha-sattva Maharaja: Two letters it just means very. What is the difference between flammable and inflammable? It emphasizes. If you say flammable then you think it burns, if you say inflammable then you think it really burns. Suddha means pure, visuddha means you understand that it is very pure. It is bringing emphasis to the pure Devotee (2): Bhaktivinoda Thakura gives a chronology for all these Vedas in the Krsnasamhita, is he doing that to pacify the Westerners? Maharaja: Yes, the Krsna-samhita it is written for. He says that books are generally written either for the neophyte or the paramahamsa. It is dealing with the transcendental realm or its dealing with the neophyte and his practice of sadhana-bhakti. He says that this is written for the madhyama because how does the madhyama get past the ignorance, the biases, the doubts, the misgivings of the conditioned soul to get to the essence? Because describing the creation isnt really the important point. That developing our love for Krsna and expressing that through devotion by understanding that we are His servants that is the understanding that we are trying to get to. If it is going to be clouded by something that is considered an issue you just by-pass that issue therefore he has given very clever ways to sideline an issue.

But those arent speculative sidelinings, those arent just those that who can use anything, they are very specific. By the direct understanding of them it sidelines the issue. But in the indirect or the subtle, the secret, it is exactly our philosophy. An example that in the Bhagavata by Bhaktivinoda Thakura, he opens that by saying that the hell that is mentioned in the Vedic literatures is imaginary. He is speaking to a Western audience, naturally they are thinking that this is just all imagination. So he says it is imaginary, then they think here is a modern progressive Indian we can listen to him he is not one of these fanatic guys. So then the rest of the book the Bhagavata they listen to. One may say that he is going against our philosophy so therefore we can say anything we want to as long as the ends justify the means. But the point is that if the living entity goes to hell how is it perceived? Devotee (2): Through the mind. Maharaja: Through the mind. And if we say something is perceived in the mind it is called imaginary. He hasnt gone against our philosophy but he has used the term. We would say that the subtle body then is covered with some very strong also subtle covering so that on the mental platform you can go through the hellish experience because the subtle body needs a form to work within so they give you one but that is very very strong. You can be thrown off a mountain and not die but you will feel all the pain, that is the ultimate aerobics. Devotee (2): How can we understand the statement that the Padma Purana was composed in 500 AD? Maharaja: How are they coming up with that? Devotee (2): Just conjecture. Maharaja: That is there but they always have to have some quote on quote hard evidence. Lets say we have an old classic the Eliot. Let us say today we publish it. Now I can strongly say that the Eliot was published today. I just leave out the element that maybe 1000 or a 2000 year old book but we have published it today. So they have some evidence that somebody published it 500 AD. We just look at that, it was published 500 AD and we just sideline the whole thing that it is actually eternal and that it has always been there. It was first published in the form that we know it of, this form that we have written 5000 years ago. But the Padma Purana has always been there, Padma Purana sits in the court of Lord Brahma, so he has always been there. That is the whole point of it no one asks if you say hells are imaginary. Could you explain why they are imaginary, no one asks. The acaryas are very expert at saying something that will make you drop the topic because it is not useful now. As you become purified then it will make sense. Thats why he says who are the Nava-yogendras? It is some kings. You just drop the thing like that. Otherwise they will argue over that. Oh so this Vedic culture is very nice. No, but they have this caste system. So you cant talk because the person has no idea, means they take something that is very broad and narrows it down to some little thing that they have some problem with. Even in their own thing if you check their life they also have a caste, who they are, who is others. They will say the blue color workers, the white color workers, they will be this, they also do the same thing. You go to Hollywood it is the same thing, you are a bad guy you are always a bad guy, if you are a hero you are always a hero, if you are a doof then you are always that. You are never

something else. They call it type-casting. In fact, you can get a degree the CSA, means you are a qualified person to cast people. It is accepted in their lives but because it is different to Vedic culture is different they cant understand it so they immediately. You dont want them to sideline the whole thing because of this so therefore you may deal with it. Because you can say that this caste system is wrong but then they think that you agree but lets look at some other elements of it. But we are not saying that the concept of having one is wrong. We are saying that the caste system that is known as the caste system is wrong because that is based on birth, we are talking about varnasrama which is not based on birth. Those are called castes. They are also called tribes, the tribe of ksatriyas, the tribe of brahmanas, a tribe means a group. Then of tribes you have civilized and you have uncivilized. Then within the uncivilized you have sophisticated and the unsophisticated, there are so many terminologies that can be used. Because of terminology, bias, misunderstanding or misgiving we dont want to have the conversation jeopardized. So here is something that Bhaktivinoda Thakura says it. So this is a technique to use. Not that thats a fact, it is a fact but how that fact is interpreted and understood that is another thing. That is why this book is for madhyamas. If the neophyte reads it they may lose their faith because it is not for them. The books are written it is obvious it is for you because it gets right down or it is way over your head. So therefore you dont wow that is so spiritual I cant relate to it. Therefore you dont get to involved what you can relate to. This is something that is used to relate to neophytes but it is not for neophytes, thats why with these things you have to be very careful. Otherwise people will make it ordinary, make it mundane, bring out the duality. That is basically what the academics try to do with everything. Because they bring something into a particular environment which they can be the lord of it because they can be critical of it. You know nothing of it but you can be critical of it, so how is that possible? Its ok you do have it. Lets say you have a music critic. He cant play music but he is dealt with enough he can tell the externals of it where something has gone wrong. He can tell if the mood of the musician was inspired or not. He can tell when a not was not done right but he cant play the music. But when it comes to in the paper and different things when the critic says it was a good performance then everyone thinks it was the prestige goes up. When he says that it was bad then the prestige of the musician goes down. But in actuality who is senior the musician or the critic? Musician when it comes to the subject matter. Because if he had a real discussion between them then one might know a lot. But then there are things that the musician knows that the critic has to respect. Therefore if he doesnt respect and thinks that he is the all in all in it that is called foolishness, that is the modern academy. Even if one is a PhD in something but they cant do anything with that. If it is practical then it is in medicine or engineering then it may have a practical side to it. But if it is stemming from a BA or a MA, they are not the one using it. They may be able to teach someone to do it but they are not there. Like the coach for the Olympic champion will never get a medal because they cant do it but they can coach you how to do it, so that is useful. And the critic has some experience in it and he has been involved in it from people who actually deal with it. But the modern academy has neither of those. People that actually do the thing they dont catch the mood because they wont ever live the thing and they themselves cant do it. They are very useful as assistants and references to those people who actually do do things. But on their own it is not very beneficial. It gets them a job that is ok. But as an authority it has its weakness they may be areas where they are authoritative but there is other areas where someone who knows is there.

Like I once asked an academic expecting a totally different answer. I was bringing up the point if you have a PhD in Tibetan Buddhism and he is the lecturer at the university and you have the Dalai Lama who in the academic field would be considered the primary authority on Tibetan Buddhism the Dalai Lama or the academic? The Dalai Lama that is what any sane person would think. But what does the academy say: the PhD because he is looking at it critically and not becoming overwhelmed by actually being part of it. This is what we mean by the foolishness, this is why we say this academy has to be reformed. Devotee (2): What is the difference between that and a sannyasi or brahmacari looking at a grhastha? Maharaja: It depends upon: if that sannyasi or brahmacari has been a grhastha or he understands what the scriptures are saying then he has something but otherwise much of the time he doesnt. But in the same way if the grhastha hasnt been a good brahmacari he doesnt have anything to say and he has nothing to say about sannyasa. In the same way just as a sannyasi may not comment on the grhastha asrama the grhastha shouldnt be commenting on sannyasa. These things also work in all directions, not just in one direction. So it may be relevant it may not be. A grhastha that was never a brahmacari how can he comment? Or the brahmacari who was never a grhastha. But at the same time one can ask define grhastha because grhastha doesnt mean someone who is living with a woman. Grhastha means someone who according to religious principles and practice lives with a woman, that is a grhastha. You dont have that technically is a grhamedi. But even that a grhamedi might even live according to the proper things. The real point is what is prominent: Krsna consciousness or the family life. So you get so many definitions even within that. Just like we say there is Vedanta, but within Vedanta there is 6 schools. So within the concept of grhastha asrama you can have so many variables. Person is a very sincere devotee but wouldnt have a clue about grhastha life and how to do but he is in it and it may go well because of his simplicity and sincerity, and his wife is the same so it works. They get by, it doesnt really satisfy anything, no one is really happy but that is the whole point of being a grhastha anyway to understand that so therefore they come to that conclusion and quite happily move on, very pure people, but it works. Less pure, more material needs. Or very pure but more material needs. But as the more material needs are there you need to have more material qualification to deal with it. Therefore as it gets more technical and the less their knowledge is they dont succeed, therefore it all falls apart. But then many times whose peoples marriages are falling apart they really think that they know what is going on. Oh men are like this, women are like this, they wouldnt have an idea. They know part of what it is like. They know what men and women are like when they are in a bad marriage environment. But they dont know what they are like in a real one. Otherwise why arent they striving for that, why didnt they get it, why arent they preaching that? Devotee (5): Is it caused by the academics who are trying to establish their position by finding faults in others then they say I am the best and everybody should follow me. But one is actually truly trying to find that truth he is looking for the good qualities in others and trying to take them and developing himself. Maharaja: You are trying to but at the same time you have to understand what is faulty. You have to know what is right and wrong. Practice whats right, be inspired by whats right, and avoid whats wrong. You cant make your life out of whats wrong. The critical analysis means I dont get emotionally involved, so it is a form of impersonalism, so they never actually know something.

Like the bee on the outside of the honey jar. He never gets involved so he never actually knows what honey is. He can say that it is in this nice glass bottle, has his label in it, came from California. He can see all these kinds of things, can tell the color, so many things you can tell, but you never actually know what honey is. That is the difficulty with the modern academic approach. It didnt use to be like that, it has become like that. Devotee (5): Neophyte sees the bad qualities, the madhyama discriminates between them, uttama sees good qualities. Maharaja: Before the academy had had Trivia and Quadrivia, these 7 subjects. The Trivia was the first three they were the basic, and then the Quadrivia that was more substantial. But those were things that were valued in human society and life and therefore you knew them. So previously education means learning those things that are used in your life and with the basis of human interaction. Quadrivia they put music in with math before, anything to do with numbers, you learn that you learn the astronomy, astrology, mathematics, music. So you understood how the universe is working, how we fit into it, how the stars, the different constellations and that then you know the proper timings for things and you know the music. It was more of a practical lifestyle knowledge. If they are quoting Greek because they read it then they would try to live like that, they considered that the Greek philosophers and the different personalities were worth following, therefore you learned it. It wasnt just an academic subject, it was something that you wanted to base your life on therefore you studied it. But over the thousands of years since the academy was formally established it has somehow or another changed from that. Now it is just an interest, an academic interest, which is nice, but that would be called a hobby. Previously that was a hobby. There was something in interest, you just knew so much Trivia, you knew so many things, but what do you do with it, it is just interest in it, it is intellectually stimulating, now and again a fact here or there might be useful. That is the difficulty it has strayed away from its original concept, therefore it has become a problem. The main reason it is strayed because of its separation from religion. You are separating from religion then if you are talking about knowledge then since God created everything to leave God out of it is a major oversight. So that means everything you deal with you are leaving God out of it. That means you can only get some externals some shell of the truth. You can never actually get the truth. And then they so proudly think that they are knowledgeable and that anybody who knows God or knows religion doesnt really know whats going on, they are sentimentalists, therefore the fight. Devotee (5): Before the people were more into the dharma and moksa and now it is just the artha and the kama. Maharaja: They want to get rid of dharma also, they are just interested in artha and kama. So they take artha as high grade. If you only have artha and kama then artha looks like something spiritual. It is like the Bengali proverb: a blind uncle is better than no uncle at all, or probably more fitting would be: in a village of blind men a man with one eye is king. You dont have the full package you only have part of it, so whoever has the upper part of the part is considered top because they never go beyond the prana-maya. They never go beyond paroksa therefore they cant understand what is in aparoksa, adhoksaja or aprakrta, they cant. Thats why it is dangerous for devotees to also take the standpoint because it closes the door to them to understanding. But because they know to academically approach and critically analyze things they think that they actually know the transcendental subject matter but it doesnt necessarily mean they do because that is based on faith not on intellect.

So intellectually they can study it. There are people at Harvard and things like that that study the sandarbas, they probably have them memorized, they can get into the finest technical details and argue over the Sanskrit meanings when we couldnt do that. But we know more about the sandarbas than they do because they dont live them, they discuss it down in the pub over a beer. So that is a problem. Because of that they are very proud, they are proud of their intellect, so that puts them in the mode of ignorance. But we have to understand there is a difference between pride and boldness: means the acaryas have said it, Krsna has said it, the scripture confirms it - so guru, sadhu and sastra confirms it so therefore we speak it with confidence. It is not pride, it is not our knowledge. It is Krsnas knowledge, this knowledge is coming from the acaryas therefore we can speak it very boldly. While these others they are not basing it on authority that is pride. Because if you are considering something separate from Krsna that is pride. You have to be able to see Krsna in it, so what is Krsna in it that you are talking about. So that is the 4 Vedas. Now the 6 Vedangas: you have Sanskrit, that has 4 parts Siksa, Canda, Vyakarana and Nirukta. Siksa means the proper pronunciation of the words of Sanskrit. Canda means the meters that it is in because it is always in some kind of form of meter, some kind of poetry. Vyakarana means the grammar. Nirukta means the vocabulary. You know how to pronounce something, you can read and write it, you understand how it is read properly. If you cant read a sentence properly and you dont understand how it works then you may come up with a wrong meaning, so you know the poetry, the grammar, how it is constructed, and you know the vocabulary. So these 4 aspects are there in Sanskrit. Then you have Kalpa which means now you are going to perform rituals based on the Vedas, based on the brahmanas. So all those rituals and what time that is supposed to be done that you need astrological calculation or Jyotish. With Jyotish you can establish when is Ekadasi, janmastami etc., that is the main science, and Jyotish is based on mathematics. So then the mathematics, means you can do the astrological and astronomical calculations. But then a side branch of that we have jatika or birth chart, you have nimitta which is the omens, you have samudrika which your reading of the body which is palmistry, face reading etc., then you have prasna which are questions. So they are all based on the effect of the planets. In other words where the planets are situated and its effect on time that is astronomy. Its effect on your birth chart that is jatika, what they call astrology. Its effect on your body that would be samudrika, the palmistry, face reading, physiognomy whatever science they do etc. Nimitta will be omens, the effects of the planets on the situation, and prasna will be the effects on the planets on the question. The question means you have a question. You go to an astrologer why? You have a question. When you ask your question a good astrologer should be able to tell you what your question is. When you walk into the room which foot you step into the room in, which direction you came in, what time of the day, which side the air is moving on the astrologers nose, if there is anything else tiktikis birds this and that. He should be able to all tell that and then when you sit down then you say you have a question on marriage, and the guy how did you know that. Because the planets are there therefore they create the omens and all the other things so he can tell. It is on this side it is on sun side therefore it will be this kind of question. If it is on this side it is moon side, then he steps in on the right foot, then when he steps in on the other foot then it is another thing. Then they come in and then you have faith.

Then if he takes that time and calculates it then according to that chart he can see what is prominent and then hell say in marriage what is the problem. Then you ask the question because when he doesnt let you ask the question at all then you feel that you are not part of the thing and therefore you might get too disturbed. Like I was just talking to a devotee the other day that they were very annoyed that their partner could tell everything about their life when it is going to happen. You are getting initiated at this time, you will be in this country etc., and that would annoy them no end. (end of lecture) (end) October 3, 2008 Maharaja: 14 books of Vedic knowledge So we have the 4 Vedas. The 6 Vedangas, we have Sanskrit which has 4 parts, it has the proper pronunciation, the proper meter, grammar and vocabulary. These make up the next four books out of the six. Then you have the Kalpa, you are going to perform rituals with the Vedic mantras, we mentioned before the brahmanas, then there is Vedic rituals to be performed. Those rituals then are performed but you also need the proper time, so you get your astrology and astronomy, that finishes these six. Then the 4 Upangas. The first of them is mimamsa, which is your interpretation of the Veda, how the Vedic mantras will be interpreted therefore what is your particular goals: How do you see the relationship between the living entity, God, the material world, what is your process of elevation and having elevated yourself what is the position of the soul and God, what is the relationship at that point? Seeing that then that will be how you view everything because depending upon what you want then you make a particular determination. In this there is 6 schools, these 6 schools then have from transcendence and devotion, to transcendence without devotion, to pious activities, to yoga, down to analysis of the material energy, the material energy dealing with logic, to intelligence. In other words, one is intelligence analyzing the world itself the other is the analysis of the philosophy of interaction, then you have those that say everything comes from matter. Like this they have their particular determinations and that will affect their sadhana, what they value and how they will follow the Vedic process. Then you have Purana. These are the histories of those who are following the Vedic culture and what have been their results. You have 18 Puranas in groups of 6 sattvic, 6 rajasic, 6 tamasic. They have their Upapuranas meaning that there are other Puranas that are subsidiary to them, like Nrsimha Purana, Visnu-dharmotra are some others they are not considered main Puranas but they still follow the Purana format and some of them have valuable information. Purana deals with overall history from creation into the future.Then you have Itihasa that focuses on one particular person, like Mahabharata is about Yudhisthira Maharaja and the Pandavas, the Ramayana is about Lord Ramacandra. Then you have Upakyanas, within Itihasa, the great detail on a particular pastime, it is not the life, it is a particular pastime, so then so many details are given in there. There is generally you hear of it as Upaveda but it is also called Upapurana, means it is secondary aspect of the Purana, that would be your Gandharva Veda, Ayurveda, Stapana Veda and Dhanur Veda, so these are in the category of the Puranas. And then you have the 64 arts. Means what has been described up to now is the lifestyle and sciences that are there, and now it is theoretical sciences or the principles of a particular activity, a particular understanding. Now you get into the practical sciences and arts of application, that gives you the 64 arts and sciences, that completes the whole concept of civics.

The next one is dharma-sastra. Dharma-sastra is then what is the human lifestyle, what is the standard, how does a human live, how does he understand his connection with the Lord, what are the rites of passage to be performed, what are the stages of life that go along with those rites of passage, what are the qualities needed for someone to follow the Vedic lifestyle? Respect, cleanliness, knowledge, sense control, service attitude, what is proper what is appropriate, dress? What is the proper appearance of such a person, what is the occupation, within the occupation how does one maintain oneself? Austerity, sacrifice and charity, how these things are to be performed? What is justice, what is atonement for when this justice is not maintained properly? And how through this whole social system can you elevate yourself to the transcendental platform? This is what the dharma-sastra gives. As subsidiary to there you have the artha- and kama-sastras. The artha-sastras will give you specifically the art of applying virtue onto a particular situation in which you get results, profit, how to deal with that profit, how to manage that profit, these kind of elements. So it takes on all the different qualities of the dharma but you are dealing specifically with the results of the dharma. The dharma is your focus but this is how to deal with those, you have money, you have position, you have power, whatever it is how to deal with that properly, how to maintain it, how to cultivate it, how to see that it continues, it cant be separate from dharma. Then you have the kama-sastras. They explain what is human sense gratification, how the senses work, how the actual natures of human beings work in the field of the senses and sense objects, so that one doesnt make any undue mistakes. Because without training one does not necessarily know what is human. Because out of the 8,000,000 species of life 8,000,000 of them are not human at all. That leaves only 400000 you call human. Within that most of them are uncivilized, uncivilized means they dont follow varnasrama. Uncivilized doesnt mean that they are not sophisticated, like some of the mleccha cultures are very sophisticated. But that doesnt mean that they are civilized. So civilized human life starts with varnasrama. So a few follow varnasrama, a small amount of the 400000 follow varnasrama. Then within that you can see that most of our experience is not civilized human being, therefore without the dharma-, artha-, kama-sastras how will one know what is human? If one just goes by what spontaneous bhava that is called animal life. Even though one has come into contact with the spiritual one may have the habit of the animals, just by bulk of practice, thats all. Therefore it is given in guru, sadhu and sastra so that one knows how to behave and then all that is not an end in itself, its purpose is to develop ones relationship with Godhead, that is the whole idea. Because human life is meant to re-establish your relationship with Godhead. So therefore the dharma-sastras are for that purpose, means varnasrama is for that purpose and to take it otherwise is to miss the whole point. If you cant see varnasrama in connection with transcendence how to elevate yourself then you dont know what is varnasrama. Devotee (1): How do we connect justice to Krsna consciousness? Maharaja: One is you have your standard ways of dealing with something that goes wrong. There is 18 categories of the law. The law falls into 18 departments and those are divided between civil, criminal and domestic. Everything that happens goes wrong in human life falls into these, so one would be able to deal with it. Also in that you have atonement, atonement also deals with something that is not necessarily as such as to be dealt with in the judicial court in the civil or domestic law, a criminal always its. But you have the elements of duties, your social duties, your domestic

duties, your personal duties. Those not being followed, then there is also ways to purify yourself. Like you didnt fast on Ekadasi so there is a way to correct that. That is the basic principle, there is something there to correct whatever is there now if you are into karma the more you are into karma the more these laws apply. The less you are into karma and you are dependent upon the holy name the less these laws are necessary. Because the main principle is no matter what you have done the best purification is chanting. Manu says that very clearly: the study of scripture, the chanting of scripture, chanting of japa, these are the most purificatory processes there are. But the difficulty comes is that people who know about a transgression of the law they themselves may not have that understanding or faith so they expect something quite external happen to correct the situation therefore all these laws are in place. Otherwise according to Manu you would purify everything by simply admitting your faults in an assembly of saintly persons - not a community that is not important at all. You have particular individuals or friends that is another thing but as a community-wise to say your story there is absolutely no rule for that because it is your problem not their problem. So revealing your mind to saintly persons, that is guhyam, those who are advanced. Having the determination that you dont want to do this anymore or having them pronounced what they think is a good way that you can get properly situated back into your duties and how to properly adjust your consciousness. Then that studying scripture and chanting japa. Its done. That is the purification of those who have faith in the holy name and in the scriptures. But as we have devotees who feel that chanting isnt everything and the scriptures are being fanatic then you start to see the rise of mundane justice. The problem is if you bring in mundane justice then you have to bring in Gods mundane justice. If you make up your own justice then why would you call it justice? Kids sit around and they have their own form of justice, does it ever work? One kid does something and he pokes the other kid. The other kid the punches him back. In their mind that is the bona fide justice. And then the other one pours a bucket of sand over his hand and then it just starts a big fight all over a poke. And this goes on in every neighborhood, in every community in every part of the world. And then these same kids grow up and then now it is just a little bit bigger. You poke him and then he pushes a little red button, whats the difference? There is still Gods laws. Adults dont like to hear this, just like kids dont like to hear it but their ego is not as big so it goes by and they forget about it. But adults dont like to hear this because they feel I am in control. But in fact God is in control it is His laws. So if you pass a rule that is not within it then there is a problem. The dharma-sastra explains this. Punishment is a very powerful personality. He is black, he has blood-shot red eyes, very fearful. You deal with him wrong he will destroy you. If you are claiming we are devotees so therefore devotees why are we using punishment. We just use association of devotees, chanting and studying the scriptures, thats what we use. As soon as you introduce punishment, punishment is a person. You deal with him properly everything goes properly. You dont deal with him properly then he will destroy you, not only you, your family and your community, just wiped out. Good example, not going to be a pleasant one but just a practical example. It was 86, 85 New Vrndavana one of the most prosperous developing dynamic communities in our movement. They had a meeting there and decided to punish a bunch of senior men according to their own speculative methods. After that you never heard of New Vrndavana since and it is still cannot be put together.

Ramacandra Khan insulted Nityananda Prabhu. It destroyed him, his family, the community, the whole village, there is a direct example. If you use mundane punishment then you have to know what you are doing. Like if you want to use a knife then you have to know what you are doing. You cant just say it doesnt matter dont be fanatic and we just make up our own rules on knives. No there is an eternal law on knives, you dont use it properly you will get cut, thats all it is just the law. You cant say we dont care for it. God wrote the law, how can you not care about God. You can say we dont care about dharma-sastra. In the Third Chapter of Bhagavad-gita Prabhupada in the purport says: Manu is to be studied by the leaders of society, not by the common person, by the leaders. Because the modes of nature are, you can say all you want: you can jump off the roof, we are devotees we dont care for the rules, we are not fanatic. Does that mean you are not going to get a broken leg? Thats why I gave the example of children growing up, their brain is still like a child just their ego has become more mature. But if people make up prayascitta, modes of purification that arent according to guru, sadhu and sastra, one they wont work and two they will destroy those who made them up. The people that they apply them on that doesnt bother them at all because in any case they are in the mood to purify themselves so therefore they purify themselves. But the people who make it up where are they now? Where is their prosperity? What is happening to them? We say this not because it just to make it practical that we understand that if we follow the sastra, we follow things as it has been given to us then it works perfectly, we dont follow it it doesnt work. You have a new yatra, everything takes off, thousands of devotees within a few years, everything is going great. And then you bring in one outside devotee who comes in and starts criticizing leadership and devotees, putting doubts into devotees minds which they hadnt before and then you see that as quickly as it went up it goes down. You could see that, Russia was like that. Bang it went up and as soon as it becomes attractive it looks good the Westerners come in with all their doubts bang the thing goes down. You could say Harikesa left. So many left other places and they went nowhere. Bhavananda left in Australia, did anything happen to Australia, no it kept going just the way it always was. That has got nothing to do with it. It is the critical attitude, criticizing devotees, that is what destroys. Therefore we to understand that we are dealing here with something real here, God is real, the scriptures are real, the process is real. It is not a matter of a game or a joke, it is real but it has been simplified down to the most simplest form. The punishments what has to be done in justice in punishments and all that take up 4 chapters in Manu out of 12, justice and all these different things, 4 chapters and Manus conclusion is within a few verses: That actually it is the association of devotees, revealing ones mind to the devotees, making the determination that I dont want to do this anymore and taking up the practice, at the same time: Chanting japa, studying the scriptures. That is how many verses? The full explanation may take up half a page but it is just those few points, and that is simply stated. It is not that you can miss the point, so it is very simple. Their point is that if we are going to say. Simple, then keep it simple. But we keep it simply when it comes to philosophy and culture and we make it very complex when we make up our own religion and philosophy. But that doesnt work, it hasnt worked for anybody who has made it up, no one today, and many are trying but it doesnt work. Neither they are happy, neither is anybody around them happy.

You just watch the zone go down for this. The most prosperous charitable yatra in the movement and in one month they can just maintain, thats it. Because they changed the vision, the management. Not that you cant change management but the management changes the mentality. So that charitableness, that determination and faith wasnt there. Not that methods cant be refined, developed, improved that is there. But the basis of Krsna consciousness, the basis of this austerity, charity and sacrifice, you remove that then you remove everything. People will think that money comes by another method. It is because of austerity therefore there is so much. It is because of charity they will get so much more. You stop the charity then you stop the money coming in, you stop the austerity you stop the money coming in. And then people wonder what happened and since there they have to blame it onto the previous management which used to get the money. So something doesnt make sense here. These are practical things here that you see them happening. Generally we dont talk like this, we dont want to talk like this. But we just bring it up otherwise we have a tendency to think that it is somewhere else, it is not in our own backyard. But the control of all this is within your own hands and your own life. You follow these things then you get the benefit even if no one else does. That was Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakuras point: His final instructions were even if nobody else becomes Krsna conscious that doesnt stop you from becoming Krsna conscious. Everybody else can leave, bloop, go down, bang. What does it matter? All you have to do is keep chanting Hare Krsna and keep faith in the instructions that are coming in the parampara. Devotee (2): Because we follow Prabhupadas Bhagavad-gita and the commentary of Visvanatha Cakravarti Thakura, in the verse api cet su-duracaro and the next one, it is explained that for the most sinful activity the devotees perform he shouldnt be derided. Because he will be very fastly positioned again and will make steady advancement. Visvanatha Cakravarti also explains that the first verse you see the devotees committing abominable sinful activities then if you are junior dont deride him, you will be making steady advancement. Maharaja: Yes, because if you deride him you will take on the same qualities. The whole idea is devotional service is something different. We are so used to karma and jnana that we are able to practice those very easily. But the combination of karma and jnana as buddhi-yoga then that takes intelligence and practice etc. Easily done because we know the elements: we know karma because we have the motive of karma. We know jnana because we have the motives of jnana. But what we are saying is take the activity of karma and the activity of jnana but its motive is bhakti. Technically it is not something new but at the same time it is because the motive changes and we are not used to this new change in motive. Plus we would never do karma and jnana together. We do one or the other. Its always, is it black or is it white? Is it good or is it bad? So we can do karma or jnana but to combine them and then do that for bhakti. So the work we have never combined and the motive we have never changed to a third option of devotion. Therefore it takes so much to convince us. But otherwise that is all it is saying: Perform all your activities with proper knowledge of who you are, who Krsna is and how to perform the activity and do it for Krsna, thats it finished. You can also say always remember Krsna and never forget Krsna, this would be the way to do it. Now the whole rest of the Vedic literatures and the commentaries are because even though we have heard that we may not be convinced or know how to apply it, so the rest of the scriptures are there to give further detail. Devotee (3): In Manu it is said that a brahmana he does japa and then all other duties are accomplished. So what is the nature of that japa he can accomplish all his duties?

Maharaja: The quality, the absorption, the faith thats what makes it. In other words, the time that he would spend doing other duties if he just chants then he doesnt have any other duties. Like Haridas Thakura he just chants, so there is no other duty. So he is pointing out that even though others will do duties know it that it is the primary duty and it is the most purifying and uplifting of all duties. So in other words, you wouldnt decide I am going to do a fire-yajna as opposed to chanting. In other words, if you had that faith you would chant more. If you have some need you must get from that fire-yajna then do that because you have that need then you must engage it. But if you dont have the need then you wouldnt use the lower form of sacrifice, so the japa is considered the best sacrifice. Like Krsna says in the Gita of sacrifice, yajna He is japa. It is the best of all. So Gita mentions that and Manu mentions that, it is standard. Because even the Gita was spoken to Manu, so they go together quite well, the dharma-sastra and the Bhagavad-gita. Devotee (4): Why is japa sacrifice? Maharaja: In here, chanting means you are giving your time up for chanting someone elses name. If you are conscious of the activity then it is sacrifice. If the motive is also sacrifice then it is complete, so you want to please that other person by chanting. Then you get what chanting is there. Then now Manu is talking about Brahma-gayatri. He is not talking about something less, but Brahman. He is not talking about demigods etc., so now it is starting from there. For those who are devotees then you are going to deal with Bhagavan. Yogis also deal with Paramatma. So theyll chant mantras in connection with the Supreme. Like Dhruva Maharaja he was doing with yoga and he was chanting om namo bhagavate Vasudevaya, that is there that goes along with it. In the dhyana there must be japa, there must be meditation. Like in the yajna, there must be mantra, the meditation. In the Deity worship there is mantra and then meditation its all on the holy name. All you have done is the japa and the absorption in the Deity by meditation that is the central point. So in Kali-yuga there is no externals to it, there is no form of it. It is just those two. Then in the Dvapara-yuga, then you give the form of it as Deity worship. Or in the Treta-yuga the form of it is yajna. And in the Satya-yuga the form of it is meditation. But it is that through that medium of meditation, or through great big sacrifices or through Deity worship. In this age you just strip all that away and leave only the holy name and absorption in Krsna. In other words, you are chanting the holy name with the idea to please Krsna. So that is how we will bring it because we understand that when they are saying that then because that is the generic mantra, the generic Vedic mantra. So depending upon your mimamsa then you are going to take it this way or that way, so for us then Uttara-mimamsa so we are taking it from Brahman to Bhagavan. So naturally we will use the Brahma-gayatri then we use higher mantras, the Kama-gayatri, Gopala mantras. More than that we will use its origin the holy name. So then one has to make those proper connections. Therefore by taking shelter of the devotees revealing ones mind all purification is there, there is no better method. As we see Prabhupada wouldnt take away service. Because it is by service that you become purified. For somebody to foolishly think that I will purify this person by taking away their service, what has that got to do with reality? All it makes is within the materialistically influenced mind you think something has gotten done because you have faith in sinful activity and material energy therefore you give it value. But if it is a mirage, illusion what value does it have?

The problem comes because you identify with the illusion therefore you give it more credence then it deserves. It doesnt deserve any credence. You give it credence, you make it valuable. Therefore you have to do something within that to make it look like something happened. You are dealing in illusion so you are punished within that illusion, but it is all illusion. We are talking about you deviated from transcendence to illusion so therefore you should be engaged more properly in transcendence. That is the devotional understanding, that is the actual conclusion of Manu. And then people say that we dont follow these rules we just chant Hare Krsna. Manu says exactly the same thing. So where did you get the idea from that we just chant Hare Krsna and we dont follow the rules. If it is Haridas Thakura then I want to see 3 lakhs of names. If it is from the instructions given to us by guru, sadhu and sastra here it is explaining it right here. That means Manu already knows that and he is giving all these rules to accommodate your mundane faith not his. Brahma is already absorbed in the Lord, so doesnt need all these things, but they are there for us. So he is instructing them but he is giving us what is the essence of this. This is the essence then according to your faith you stick to that. If not then you add on to it by layer how far out you have to go. There is so many layers, you just add another layer and go deeper and deeper and deeper. But because you have added on to the next there is still a connection back to the Lord. But if you just jump and get rid of all that thenYou lower yourself in with a rope then you can get out. You want to see what is in the well, ok go for it but take a rope with you. Just to jump in and say we dont care for these rules, then that is not very intelligent. What we are discussing this is mainly for ones own practice. You have to understand the forum here. I am sitting here and you have come here, therefore we are talking to you about what you can do in your own life to make your life benefitted. What we are speaking here is not specifically for our general preaching method. This is for self-realization, understanding yourself. Someone who is self-realized can then preach to others but because you understand their nature or where their weakness is in self-realization therefore you will then speak it in such a way that will benefit them. So we covered dharma-, artha-, and kama-sastras. Niti-sastra, niti is ethics. You want to talk morality and ethics, niti-sastra is ethics. Because that will give you the basis of it because it is prana-maya, morality is prana-maya, so how does prana-maya work properly? We wont think of niti as that because there is a science. Because we generally take morality as pure sentiment. No, but niti is a science, it includes the emotions and the intelligence. That is always a balanced person when the intelligence and the mind is balanced that gives you proper human interaction. So they are both considered. One may be more prominent at one time, the other may be more prominent, that doesnt matter, but it is still that the two are connected. So that makes it complete, this complete the civics. Then you have nyaya, that is the last, the 14th book, the 4th of the Upangas. That gives you a logical way to express yourself and to understand what others have expressed, either in the spoken or the written word. You have the Vedas which is the basis of knowledge, they are knowledge. Then you have the 6 Vedangas, how to access that knowledge, through because they are written in Sanskrit, how through the Sanskrit language you can access. You know how to perform the rituals that they describe, you know the proper timings to perform all those rituals then you can access the Vedas. Then how you are going to live that. How you are going to interpret and apply in your life that is the Upangas. So your philosophy will be there, the example of others through the Puranas, and all the different social sciences that are there for that interaction based on your philosophy, the lifestyle of that, then the dharma-sastras is giving you a foundation of the

science of human life, which is being followed, and communication. So lifestyle, communication, a philosophy, then the Puranas are going to show how the great personalities before took these three and lived their life. Devotee (5): When someone is called a tri-vedi or a catur-vedi what does that refer to? Maharaja: Tri-vedi means that they have studied 3 of the 4 Vedas, catur-vedi means they have studied all the four Vedas, dvi-vedi means they studied 2 Vedas. Fourth is always Atharva. First will be whichever is your Veda, the family line and all that. Which Veda you use for your samskaras, then you can say you are in that line. Then whichever other one you want. Otherwise the 3 means Rg, Yajur and Sama, it always means that and Atharva will be the fourth. If your family line is the Atharva Veda that is your Veda, that would be your one Veda you study. But generally tri-vedi means those first three. Devotee (5): How does that correspond to the 4 varnas? Maharaja: I have never seen that the 4 Vedas are connected to the 4 varnas, the 4 Vedas are connected to the 4 aspects of the sacrifice. Means the yajur-vedi he establishes everything, the field. The rg-vedi he installs the fire, he calls the Deity and worships the Deity. The sama-vedi then offers the prayers, and the atharva-vedi, not exactly sure, that is all the miscellaneous little things that are important for these other three. Devotee (5): Are the sudras intended to study the 64 arts, the ksatriyas more the prana-maya, or the niti? Maharaja: That is you are taking the dharma, artha, kama and moksa. Means kama is the occupation of sudras, they deal with the senses either as fine arts, or skilled or unskilled. The vaisyas deal with economics, with artha, with prana-maya. Thats why you see those who jump up and down the most about morality and justice and economics are the most disturbed by someone has money or doesnt have money, they are vaisyas. That is one of the ways to pick him out in the meeting. They stand out because they are the ones that are shocked by any moral kind of thing, how can there be leaders, and they are always upset about money, how can anybody else have money, they should have all the money, they should be in control of all the money. They are very strong on justice, set examples. Or you get a pranamaya brahmana and be like that means a brahmana who has dropped from his natural, so he thinks like vaisyas. Ksatriyas then dharma is their field, that is their occupation. Establishing dharma, maintaining dharma, through dharma then everything is established for them. Brahmanas it is liberation, mukti, transcendence, the knowledge of sastra, Brahman, things like that. That is the main field. Of course, you can mix and match all these things but that is their occupation, but what their consciousness is outside of that maybe different. But this is the consciousness they have for the occupation. Thats why the brahmanas they are detached therefore they can educate, therefore they can do puja etc. Otherwise what happens if a vaisya figures out that the Hindus and life members like yajna? He turns it into a money-spinning thing and how long do these little pujaris last? Generally about 6 months because they take on karma which he doesnt factor into it and then they go away then, oh they werent very sincere and then he invites the next gullible brahmana to come in and do all this. So it becomes money and it is not actually a lifestyle. Means making money is the lifestyle they just happened to be you can sell cloth, shoes and you can sell samskaras, thats all it is just a money-spinner.

Only brahmanas have the sadhana to burn off the karma. Thats why the guy who just comes into the temple now and again, knows all the mantras and he does all the things. As more times goes you see him less and less at the temple because he has becomes more and more encumbered with the weight of the sin of a community that he actually doesnt know and doesnt consider their actual social status. When you are dealing in the mundane it is real. Just as we take devotional service and saying, oh I am being real by engaging in various mundane activities, that is fine but know that the mundane then within itself has its responses. So you either are going to deal outside the mundane and just touch it or you deal with it from within. In other words you are going to deal with the mundane from outside or you are going to deal with the mundane from the inside. If you deal from outside there is one set of rules, if you deal from inside there is another set of rules. And try to say that dealing from inside is a higher position and all those rules are superior that is only for the misinformed, only the misinformed can come up with that. (end of lecture) (end) October 6, 2008 Maharaja: General definitions Conditioned and constitutional. Conditioned means that the living entity is controlled by the material energy, he is under its influence. Therefore according to their particular mentality, consciousness they will develop a particular body, they will be in a particular situation. So they will be comfortable with that and that they will identify as themselves. While constitutional means the natural position. The generic definition would mean that they are in their position as servant of Krsna, their natural position in a serving mood towards Krsna on the transcendental platform. At the same time it would also mean that they have their particular spiritual form, their spiritual nature. In other words, the generic is that they serve Krsna, they worship Krsna. But specific would be their specific nature like what particular service they are rendering to Krsna. It is similar in the material world the generic is under the influence of the modes of nature and one has at any specific time a specific form. You have the material body through which you perform your activities you identify with, material activities. Constitutional means transcendental form and transcendental activities. So in either case there is a specific nature. But the generic is servant of Krsna or under the influence of the external energy. That definition covers everybody. Devotee (1): Does our nature in the spiritual world have any bearing on our nature here? Maharaja: Means the generic yes, but specific no. Generic that we are supposed to be servants of Krsna that will have a bearing on here in that as we accept that and take that up then we progress, and as we dont we dont. But specific what rasa one is in in the spiritual world has absolutely nothing to do with anything here. Sometimes people try to connect it but it has absolutely no connection because you can be anything here. If one has taken up devotional service means that he has been through every species of life that there is and has started to doubt that he can be happy in the material world, there is no connection. The reflection. We have the spiritual world, it is reflected on the water of material desire. The living entity has material desire so that water, because water represents rasa, that creates

a reflection. Therefore then the material world looks like the spiritual world but everything is upside down. What is down is actually up means the root is up. The example is given of a tree that is upside down like you look in the water. The tree in the water is right side up or upside down? Upside down. So in the same way in the material world the reflection is upside down. So what is higher there is considered lower here and what is lower there is considered higher here. So this reflection is there. It looks like the spiritual world but it is not. Thats why we become easily bewildered because it looks like what the spiritual world does: it has trees, birds, rivers, mountains, everything is the same. You have people, families, parents, children, it is all the same thing that is there in the spiritual world. Only there it is eternal and full of bliss whereas here it is temporary and full of distress. Our illusion is thinking that whats here is permanent and will always make us happy. Devotee (2): Is the mentality reflecting? Maharaja: What is reflecting is the form is reflecting, and we think, means. In the spiritual world they think Krsna is the center of everything but in the material world the living entities think they are the center of everything. So that is the perversion because then the living entities are trying to be God, not that the living entities are acknowledging God in His position. This reflection will be used many times in discussing the philosophy because in there you can see the connections why things are there. Otherwise the impersonalists they dont understand this reflection and they reject the material world and all its forms and everything, but they reject the whole concept. The problem is not attachment, or form, or relationship , or rasa, or endeavor, or results of activities, these arent the problem. The problem is that they are misdirected: instead of being directed at Krsna they are directed at ourselves. Therefore material activities, material attachment, material conceptions, material rasa, material interaction, material results. These are a problem if they are not connected to Krsna. But the Mayavadis because they dont know that it is a reflection they take it that everything we would see here and experience here is illusion. So the concept of form, interactions and relationships they take it also as illusion which is true on the platform that we are misperceiving whats here. We are taking it that we are the center of everything and everything is for our benefit, so thats why everything doesnt go so well. But they cant distinguish even though they are jnanis, they are intelligent but they are not that intelligent, so they make this mistake and throw it all out. So this element of the reflection is important for understanding that what goes on here it is only used if it is connected to Krsna then it is like the original form. But if the material form is not used like the spiritual form is then it becomes useless, that is illusion. But if it is used then it gives the same kind of benefit that it does in the spiritual world, because it is the same thing you are just using inferior ingredients. In the spiritual world you are using all the spiritual facilities to please Krsna. So if you are in the material world and use all the material facilities to please Krsna whats the difference? Because the attitude is more important than the specific result. So if the attitude is right here then you are getting the same benefit. Understanding this reflection then you would try to do things properly. This would also give rise to the aspects before, the varnasrama and all the other social things. Because if it is the reflection of the spiritual world naturally it can look like the spiritual world therefore the dress, the behavior, the culture is like that of the spiritual world. That would be the reason

that we would wear particular clothes that we wear, or eat the particular food, or follow the particular customs because these are the customs and culture of the spiritual world. Thats why we are doing it. We are not interested because it is Indian. No, that is being used in the unscrupulous arguments that they are trying to make the Vedic culture, the transcendental eternal culture look like something Indian that is just another modern country now. So what is the difference if we follow Indian, European or American what does it matter it is all modern and mundane? But the point is the Indian is based on the Vedic which is the sastric definition of the form of the spiritual world. The culture of the spiritual world is being allowed for us to follow. Someone is in jail, so they can live a criminals life in jail. Be bad, bother other people but you dont get out for that. You behave yourself and you try to follow the same principles that are there outside the jail in the normal society, being proper behaved, being responsible, not being violent. So the detail of it may be a little different but the principle is the same. So someone who has the right attitude in jail is let out of jail. Then when they come to the normal society they will behave properly because they have the same attitude. But if someone maintains a criminal attitude they wont be let out of jail, they wont get to the spiritual world. So the whole point is to develop the same attitude. Then naturally with the attitude there is natural forms that go with it because they go with it in the spiritual world. That is being offered for those who like to take advantage of it. It is secondary, it is not that important but it helps. You dress as a devotee then you relate to the world as a devotee, you dress as a karmi you relate as a karmi. You walk down the street in a dhoti you are in your world, you are not in the karmis world. Because the karmis look at you and you are different. You wear what they wear you are in their world and they deal with you just like they would deal with each other. So you are being given the opportunity to live in the spiritual environment and practice the activities of the spiritual world and carry that mood with you wherever you go. The only reason that you make adjustment is if it will enhance the actual preaching. Because people who take up seriously Krsna consciousness dont mind following the spiritual culture. It is simply the facility to preach that you have to consider. It is not that we use an adjusted culture and therefore the people are going to grow up in that culture and that is going to be their practices this adjusted culture. Because if it is then what are they going to do when they go to the spiritual world, they wont like it. You dont like wearing a dhoti here you are not going to like wearing it in the spiritual world, it is the same dhoti. You dont like taking prasada here then you are not going to like it there. They are going to give you rice, dal, sabji over there, eternally if you dont like it here then you are not going to like it there. It is one thing you prefer this and this is what you are used to that is okay. But to say I dont like this that is going to be a problem, it is an eternal problem. It is secondary but the point is that you cant be adverse to Krsna. You cant be adverse that means we cant be adverse to Krsna, we cant be adverse to Krsnas culture. We are adverse to the concept of being in illusion and staying that way. But it is not so much our inspiration is not our aversion to the material, it is our attraction to the spiritual and the aversion keeps us stable in our devotion on a bad day. Devotee (1): People dont want to stick out. They think people think that we are weird Maharaja: They dont like to stick out because people think they are weird but they like to stick out. You name me the woman that wants to look exactly the same as everybody else and you show me the guy that doesnt try to do some little personal touch. Therefore I dont buy the thing we dont want to stick out. Because anyway in the Western thing we dont stick out,

we just dont. Have you seen the people that walk down the street, they look some much different, they look much more wild than us. Then you also have to define what does it mean not to stick out, you want to blend in, blend into what? What form you are going to blend into? The guy is coming from Wall street and is wearing a 3P suit with ties and their shoes are polished and they got a brief case and when they walk down the street on first avenue they stick out because no one else there who is on the street is wearing a suit. So what do they do? They go into a phone booth and change? No they are business persons. You cant accept them for what they are. But the modern think accept everyone for who they are, why you are pointing them out for this and that, why you are making distinctions. Therefore their whole philosophy is accept everyone who they are so why cant they accept us for who we are? And when they were teenagers what were they dressed in? These same people when they were teenagers what did they look like? They were just perfectly blended in? Or did they possibly happened to look like hippies? When the time was that the guy kept a botch they got hair down to their waist when everybody wear nicely fitting and nicely looking clothes they were buying at the salvation army. Everyone worked these guys did nothing, that didnt stick out? Or punks, or anything else. So everyone who is saying that then thats all. So why do they want to fit in? Simply for economics. Simply because they dont have any conviction. If there is a problem where people actually physically harass or make some trouble ok we can understand that. But when you are in Alachua and there are 1500 of you and you go to the local store where all the devotees go what does it mean to fit in? They cant tell you are a Hare Krsna anyway? When a lady walks in in a dumpy t-shirt you know it is got to be a devotee because a karmi would wear something that would look nice. But there thing is if it is not string tank top that it has got to be a dumpy t-shirt. There is only these two options but somehow the karmi women have a wide variety of options. So I dont find that hardly any devotees fit in. If being a slob is fitting in then yes they are doing a great job. This fitting in, what does it mean? It sounds nice but what is this definition of fitting in? To some people if you wear cargo jeans you are weird, to some you dont wear cargo jeans you are weird. To some people of you wore bell bottoms you are weird, others would say it is trendy. To someone else if you dont wear tapered pants that are so tight that look like sliding off your bums and they dont come up to your proper waist then you dont look good and other will say that looks really stupid cant say buy a pair of pants that fit. Others they pull their pants down so their underwear sticks out and others will say that look really stupid if your underwear sticks out. What is this fitting in? All it means is I as in a mentality of what I would wear if I was a karmi if I wear that then I would feel I fit in. Because that is what they revert to. It is not that there is any definition or anything that would have any connection to upliftment in their consideration of clothing. They are not considering let me dress nicely for Krsna, or let me project that we are of a certain social class or some kind of thing that people might look like, oh then you are being discriminatory. No, all it is saying that you leave me alone, make no restrictions so that I can wear whatever I want. Thats all. It is not an elevating position, is not a position of someone who is trying to progress in spiritual life. Otherwise there would have to be some regulation on it. Otherwise how is it progressive? So what is the condition? Unless they had self-imposed regulations but they would do that anyway as a karmi: I cant look like a slob I have to dress a little better. Or I couldnt dress like all those artificial people dressed up and trying to look nice I am just trying to look natural. Devotee (1): Is it because we are uncomfortable with our identity as a devotee?

Maharaja: We are uncomfortable with our identity as a devotee therefore when you are uncomfortable with your identity, the sambandha. What happens with abhidheya and prayojana? Abhidheya doesnt happen, prayojana is definitely not going to happen. Thats why they just fit in and that is all they do. And bhakta Jose is still not initiated after being around in every temple in America for the last 15 years. Because if there is no sambandha where is going to be abhidheya and prayojana? It is just science. We dont have any problem wearing karmi clothes but why are you wearing karmi clothes? To we just want to fit in we dont want to stand out, that is not good enough. Because I dont buy it. I dont buy that that is the thing, that is what comes out of their mouth. But whats in their heart is I dont feel comfortable being identified as a devotee. That is the real reason. What comes out of the mouth is something politically correct to try to throw you off-track that you leave him alone. So the discussion is dropped they dont have to discuss it. Because they dont have a reason why they dress like that. Being practical you can wear anything if you are practical. Since when are pants practical? What is your definition of practical? Does it mean clean? I want to be clean to what it the most practical thing to wear to be clean? Something I can wash everyday. Something I wouldnt mind wearing two different sets everyday. They are going to wear a pair of pants for half a day and then wash it. No they say that is not practical, why, because it is not practical to wash like that because it takes forever to dry. You wash them like that it takes 3 days to dry. You know how many pair of pants you have to have? Their practicalness is not based on something progressive. If it is good for their work but how devotees dress when they are being practical I dont think anyone would hire them. I really dont think they would hire them. It is one thing you are wearing something for your job but then when you are getting home? The guy has to wear a suit at his office and he wants to come to the temple but immediately from the temple and stays as long as he can so he comes to the temple and wears his suit there and then he leaves from the temple and goes straight to work, that makes sense. But on a week-end he shows up with his jeans and t-shirt, where is the work? That doesnt make sense. The Vedic is practical, you have to wear something else then wear it. Pandavas are going to the forest they have to wear deerskins, so they are not wearing their other outfit. Devotee (1): People are uncomfortable you being dressed like that Maharaja: People are uncomfortable you being dressed like that. What about when the words are coming out of your mouth dont agree with what they are doing. Who are these people that are uncomfortable. You are going out first time meeting somebody, fine, wear your karmi clothes. But are they going to be comfortable with you looking like a slob? What kind of clothes are going to project that this person has something to say? Jeans and a t-shirt? Some little gelled hair? Whats going to project? Someone is doing a self-help seminar, someone is doing something like this where people want to see that they are dynamic. They shouldnt just show up in a jeans and t-shirt. How are they choosing what they are going to wear? They wear what they like to wear, not what is actually for the preaching. They dont mind that saying, the person is uncomfortable. We want to establish some preaching down the campus so therefore how to we go into this academics office the dean of this particular college, how do we go in dressed that make him think that we have got something to say to his students since the Dean is in charge of the personal development of the student, what should we be wearing? Is that considered? One or two might but most dont. What does that mean being uncomfortable? That same person if a Buddhist walked up to them, dressed how they dress in Thailand which they do, would that person be uncomfortable?

Oh, here is a Buddhist. Buddhism is only kind of known the last 10 years, so that everybody knows that a Buddhist is. How long have the Hare Krsnas been around? How long has it been since Hare Krsna was a household word, that everybody knew who the Hare Krsnas were? You see a connection? Now if you have a shaved head and if you were robes they think you are a Buddhist, even devotees think you are a Buddhist. Because they dont know what devotees look like dressed in, because all they were seeing is karmi clothes. It is a problem, it is not consistent. You want to make projection, make a projection then say karmi clothes ok, we want karmi clothes and wear this kind of karmi clothes, it doesnt make sense to me. Because there is no culture and no taste so therefore to them it is not important. Anyone who is grown up in a background of culture and taste wouldnt have so much difficulty with the dress. Even if they wore karmi clothes they look normal by karmi standards, they look decent. And even if you are going to say, no America everybody dresses as a slob because they think that if you dress a little nicer you are a snob then make that rule for America, but everywhere else in the planet they take a little pride in their clothes. Especially as you start coming this way, as you hit the middle-east you hit asia, they all take great pride in their clothes. In fact, all the clothes of the world are made over here. So then you would change it but they dont change it because the American standard is the standard for the world but how long ago was America number one? They are number 27 in education in the world not 3, not 5, but 27. The euro is more powerful than the dollar. They should stop thinking that they are going to run the world. They got 50 floundering temples out of 400 in the movement. It is not that they got 50 and the rest of the world got 50. So they have to stop thinking like this. You want to wear karmi clothes in India then look like a gentleman, the gentlemen look like it, they dont look like slobs. You are going in Calcutta you dress in this and that you want to wear karmi clothes not saris. Then they wear their punjabis or whatever else and they dress like whatever other cultured people would wear, but they dont do that either. All it is it is an excuse to dress how they want, without regulation, no control, nobody telling me anything because it is my life, that is the bottom line. There is individual taste, we dont mind. Within it how you wear your dhoti, your chuddar, your kurta, what kind, with borders, no borders, colors, no colors. There is a lot of variety there. Or if you have to wear nice karmi clothes and what are they, there is so much variety. But they dont want to have any restriction, that is not progressive. There has to be some control. Otherwise how do you connect it to Krsna if there is no control, out of control means not connected to Krsna. We dont mind if you feel that but then say that, just say I feel uncomfortable, just going around, I am not socially strong enough, I am not a leader, I am not a social leader so therefore I cant set a fashion, I just got to along and hope people are not going to harass me. Because anyway I bought these clothes and after six months I am going to buy new ones to keep up with the fashion. Now, so you will look out of place anyway. Nerds look out of place, so many people look out of place. This is just part of the material world. Devotee (2): How to get them out of this? Maharaja: At this point in time I have no idea because you cant wake up a man who is pretending to be asleep. Therefore it is up to the individual to they themselves practice it and follow it and then with time that will become more standard. In other words, those who have grown up in the culture of Krsna consciousness then Krsna consciousness is their culture and they want to follow that.

Somebody grew up in Turkey, when they go to Germany. They want to wear their Turkish clothes and they do it. The Buddhists wear theirs, the orthodox Jews wear theirs. They like their food from their place. Italians go to America and they still eat Italian food, they still wear their clothes Italians wear them. They dont wear them the way Americans wear them because Americans look like slobs, Italians look good. When you are dealing with a culture that doesnt have any and doesnt know that it exists it is very hard. How do you explain to a blind person the concept of color or shape? It doesnt mean anything to them, that is the problem. So the best thing is to train people in the culture where it is their culture and when they grow up they will run the society and we dont have to worry about this anymore. It takes a little longer but effective. Devotee (2): Then again, second and third generation they will do it? Maharaja: Like that. Main thing is whoever is determined follows then it works for them. Devotee (3): My own observation, it very much depends on the consciousness of the devotee because those who want to preach wearing devotional clothes it is an advantage. Maharaja: They will find a place to preach. Devotee (3): People come with the interest of who are you, what is this? And then you can immediately start preaching. So that opens the dialogue. Maharaja: So come up, who are you? Why did you ask? Is there a problem? Did I disturb you? Could you fill out this questionnaire here? Is my appearance disturbing to you? Did you feel that your chowoha had a miscarriage because of my outfit? Devotee (3): I read in a guide on America that Americans are apparently very friendly, when they meet each other they hello, how are you. But dont start saying how are you, its only a phrase they dont expect you dont elaborate on that. So you should say fine and go away. But dont say really how are you. Maharaja: Yes, dont expect an answer. Prabhupada gives the example the man is in the hospital tubes everywhere and you come in how are you doing? Great, better, fine! How do you define better? I got a better quality tube. Devotee (3): I have seen devotees who are in book distribution, those who distribute the books just they want to give whats in the book to the people actually explain and talk. They are not just who are not just result oriented, and then they can go in dhoti and spend time preaching to them but those who need to make a point then they rather go in karmi-clothes and then they just keep doing the books and if nobody is interested just go away. Devotee (4): What means devotional clothes dhoti, unipata, and chuddar, or kurta can also be? Maharaja: Kurta is part of the thing, those who like kurtas wear them, if it is practical it works for them. Chadars you grew up wearing them then you know how to wear them. You grew up wearing the dhotis and chuddars then you know how to put them on for any occasion, you know how to keep them on, they dont bother you because you have always had them on so you unconsciously take care of them. The problem is that an adult who has worn clothes that have always been sewn on, then they dont know how to deal with something that has a variety of ways that you can wear it. They can only put the shirt on one way and the buttons go in a particular pattern and thats it. Ok you can leave one or two buttons open, that is about as far as it gets, that is all you can do. They dont know how to deal with stuff that falls off. But you give them a camera case, a phone, a whole bunch of other gizmos and gadgets they can take care of that and dont have any problem because that is what they have grown up with. It is just a matter of conditioning, they dont like to deal with stuff like that.

The modern ladies they used to playing with their hair all day, playing with their outfits but they dont have to worry that it will fall off. But they play with their clothes all day. But they dont know how to play with the Vedic clothes so therefore it is a problem, it is not practical, it is not this and not that. They say the sari is hard to wear, it is just as hard to wear as a dhoti. The bottom of a sari doesnt go anywhere, the bottom of a dhoti moves around plus you have a chadar that moves around. So it is not easier to wear a dhoti and chuddar and harder to wear a sari. So the women who say that you cant wear them in public and cant wear them here it is just bogus. They would rather play with their hair thats it. They dont want to play with clothes they want to play with their hair. It is just conditioning thats all, and attachment to that conditioning. It is one thing if it is saying we have a class of devotees that are going to be more full-time or more committed to the practice of Krsna consciousness in the public eye and therefore it is very encouraged that they wear the devotional clothes, that is nice. But to say no one needs to wear it that is going to be some problem. What would you think if the Catholic start to think why did the popes, cardinals, bishops, and priests all have to wear funny clothes they dont fit in. They dont want to fit in, they want you to know that I am a bishop, I am a priest. The Christian priest walks down the street and he wants you to know I am Christian and I am here. You want to talk to me I am here, they want you to know. Therefore if an individual doesnt want to that is fine but dont make a philosophy that no one should, thats a problem. Prabhupada didnt want the sannyasi to wear karmi clothes. Others might wear them but they shouldnt wear. Prabhupada didnt go into Singapore because he wasnt going to wear karmi clothes. He comes in as a sannyasi they like it they let him in, they dont like it he doesnt go in. There has to be at some point some kind of concept of an idea what they would use it for. Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura had people in suits and they would preach to the established British people, not guys on the street, established people who were running the place. Because in those days the British they ran the place. So they were suits for them, but what kind of suits? Nice suits, with tie and spats, that is very formal. Depending upon what the thing they would create a dress for but then they would all wear that or all wear this. So there is some standard, but there is no standard, how does it work? In saying all these things it is not to establish a standard it is to break down a standard and to establish no standard as the standard. Devotee (5): when it reflects into the material world the jivas in a male body have to pretend put on a show that they are male so in this sense we emulate the supreme male Krsna in his interactions with his females in the spiritual world? Maharaja: As far as duties go, yes. As far as attitude, no. Your general attitude to perform your duties, yes that is the same. But the overall attitude is not the same because we dont think that we are male. We understand Krsna is male He is the enjoyer, we are the enjoyed. So we are performing our duties for His pleasure, but it is duties. You can say that is artificial but what about Sridama, Sudama, Madhumangala, they are not Visnu-tattva so you could say it is artificial for them, or Nanda Baba. It is the pastime to please Krsna, so they take those male roles to please Krsna, so it is the same principle here. If you say we are not this body then great, then stop acting like it. Because that is the way it works, it is a reflection, it still works in the same way. (end of lecture) (end) October 7, 2008

Maharaja: Focus, endeavor and daiva. Focus is your sambandha, endeavor in your abhidheya and daiva is the prayojana. If you understand who you are and what you are dealing with, and there is an interest in dealing with it there will be a focus. From that you know the appropriate endeavor to make. But then the result we still have to depend upon the Lord, we still have to depend upon Krsna because otherwise at any time it may be something different than expected because there is our plan and then there is Krsnas plan. Predestiny, free will. Predestiny means the results that are coming from previous activities, in other words previous free will. So that gives a result now in the form of some situation. In that situation you can perform your activities according to your free will. Predestiny and free will are at every moment always simultaneously present. The predestiny is the situation you are in. The free will is what you do with that situation, that is always there. Depending upon your free will, how you deal with that situation that generates the next situation. Devotee (1): How can we tell whats Krsnas plan and whats our plan? Maharaja: First is our plan in connection with Krsna? That might be some part of it. It is approved by guru, sadhu and sastra. We feel good about it, there is a clarity, clearness and lightness. We dont feel any remorse, we dont feel anything that was wrong. Anything like that is in the mode of goodness. Anything else that we lament about, or are enthusiastic and feel bad later about, these are all passion and ignorance. The activities that we are comfortable with that are according to guru, sadhu and sastra, and we see it will be confirmed: the Vaisnavas are satisfied, we are satisfied. Generally you can see that that got some plan there. If we are doing the activity for Krsna then the result will come according to what would be Krsnas pleasure. If it is for our own then the modes of nature will be taking care of it. But as devotees even that Krsna arranges in such a way that the devotee is benefited. The devotees desire will be fulfilled but in such a way that it will remove the desire also. The 2 Systems of Sastric Study: Chronological & Analytical (thematic). Chronological because the sastra has a natural form. So then one follows it in that natural form, that is the first study. Having done that then that form has so many aspects that its unfolding of the various aspects would have been in a particular presentation because of the audience, the situation, so it will be explained in a particular way. But there are so many elements that each one depends upon the other. Like which one do you explain first, so depending upon what is it that you are trying to establish, who your audience is then you make a presentation. But it is not that the first thing you presented to establish everything, means the first thing you presented which you will build on. You make something then you make the next presentation, then the next, the next and then it will gradually come to the point. It is not that those early points were necessarily more simple or more basic. Then by going back and studying it by the theme then you actually get the full benefit of the whole presentation because there may have been something that was given in the beginning to establish everything on but as you go and establish other points there are the things within that first point that could be brought out. That is brought out in your thematic study. Because then you go back and take a particular point, a particular theme that will be that will be all through the whole book, from the beginning to the middle to the end. But they will

be presented from the angle the sambandha-element, from the abhidheya-element and from the prayojana-element but it shows all the different aspects of the same thing. By seeing it altogether like that then it broadens your understanding. The first one gives you an understanding of the topic, a very logical presentation gives you a good understanding of the topic. The thematic study then deepens that understanding. I present something in order. We have to cook. That means cooking means you have to be applying through the use of fire, utensils, spices and ingredients you are going to create something that is cooked, that will be offerable to the Lord and eatable by the devotees. Therefore the first thing to do is you have to get a pot. Then putting the pot on the fire then you make a jaunce. Having made the jaunce then you put the vegetables. Then depending upon what you want to do then you either fry them or steem them. You may boil them also or you may just put other things and make a nice gravy something will be done. In this way the cooking process is there. In that we have described all the various aspects of the jaunce, all the aspects what kind of pot, all these kinds of things. Difficulty will come that in this we are focusing on what is the jaunce. But now you are going to make that jaunce according to what is the particular vegetable, what is the particular preparation. That consideration you are not focusing on in the beginning you are just showing them how to make the jaunce. In this way you have learned the cooking process but now by going back you learn how the jaunce relates to the other things. Depending upon if you put a gravy then you dont use a jaunce you use a koshna or you use a very small jaunce and you use the wet spices. Or if you are going to put in the spices later then you put in less here into the koshana. Depending upon how you are going to do it that is going to affect your jaunce. But in the beginning you are just learning what a jaunce is. So you have to start somewhere otherwise if we start to technical with things then you wont catch the whole idea. You will catch the method. So we want to show that in cooking you have all these stages. You have the jaunce and other spices that may be added, what spices, more heavy ones, more light ones, whatever you make you gravies out of if there is, things that are added during the cooking process, while you are boiling it, steaming it, things that are added near the end that need to be slightly cooked but you dont want to have them affect the cooking process or to lose their flavors. Things that are put after the cooking is finished. Then you understand what is cooking. But then that has to be applied to the various vegetables, situations, seasons, who is eating, times of day but you got to start somewhere. So if I start with the people that are eating and the seasons I may look at it more from the social side or astrological side or something like that I take that as prominent. But when we are discussing cooking then the cooking itself is the prominent element, it is influenced by all these other factors. Then we can go back and study how do all these other factors apply? According to the season that would adjust my vegetables, that would adjust the peoples interest in eating, or health, or digestion, that would adjust what kind of spicing I use, how much spicing, what methods of cooking I use. So you could say it is all about the season because only in that season you get things and you would eat in a certain way. So you can say that is actually the real thing, cooking is just secondary. To get in the right proportion then by chronological you understand what is the main theme and everything. Because that is going to have the pancanga-nyaya presentation, from that through tatpraya-lingas you can study it and understand what is the main elements and everything like that. Then you go back and study in depth all the different things. Because you have studied the whole thing if you just pull something from here and there it doesnt matter.

Devotee (2): Is the analytical one aspect of the chronological? Maharaja: You could say but at the same time all the information that is in the chronological may not be used in the analytical. And the depth that you are going to go in the analytical may not be accomplished in the chronological. Means you will be doing a little of both but one will be prominent. Therefore we read the scripture and then we study the scripture. Because if we try to do them both at once it doesnt work so good because you havent chronologically read so you havent come to the full understanding. So if you are trying to analyze fully it wont be possible, a little bit, yes, but it is only when you finished the work then you can go back and fully analyze because now you understand everything in its relationship to everything else in the work. So if you do them both simultaneously it will be less efficient. You have to do one then the other. Though in one you are referring to the other anyway, so there will be sangati, connection between them. Devotee (2): The chronological sets up the field? Maharaja: Yes, you could say the overall means your view of it. Means you understand all the elements, how they relate, their purposes, what is the interaction and all that. So it is sambandha even though it will be describing elements of abhidheya and prayojana but it is from the knowledge side. Then the thematic you go into detail on all these. Devotee (3): Is this approach prescribed in the scripture? Maharaja: Srila Prabhupada mentions it. He says first you read then you study. Reading is the chronological and study is the analytical. It is considered to be an offence to just skip through a scripture. You read it then you pull what you want because you may think I got all the information here but there is information in another place and that other information has some effect on the first information. So that taken together that actually has the thing. So unless you have read the book it is much harder to be able to just pull something from it, thats why it is not recommended. Religion without philosophy & philosophy without religion Religion means the inherent nature of something. So where did that nature come from? That is then coming from God. So therefore there is some process it got there. Thats that process of it is the tattva. And the nature itself is the result. If you only know the nature of it not the philosophy, or you know the philosophy and you dont know the nature then it is a problem. People nowadays are talking they are practical but they dont know what nature is. So how can they be practical? They know philosophy but they dont know the nature of something. If you dont know the nature of it you cant practically apply it. Means all you know is some externals. So you dont actually know what is going on. So you have some externals and you try to get some external result, unfortunately they dont even get that. The people who are practical know the nature of the subject matter they are dealing with. They know how it functions, how it works. And that is established by God. So it is not speculative. So when you have religion without philosophy there is no speculation. I mean when you have philosophy without religion, what we are discussing here, that would be speculative because you dont know how to apply it, you dont know the nature of something, or maybe it is this or that, not its that, this and that. So many things depending upon their particular agenda at the time then that would be the discussion. But religion without philosophy they are applying things nicely, they get a nice pious result, things are

comfortable and all that. But they dont actually know what it is for and where it is going. Therefore it just stays comfortable and nice thats it, so that is sentiment. So if you have religion without philosophy it will be sentimental. Philosophy without religion it will be speculative. So there will be, one knows what is there but one has no cultural satisfaction. The others are culturally satisfied but dont know where they are going. So the point is you have to have both. The tattva is describing Gods creation, nature is then saying what it is and how it works. In other words, its relationship to something else that is the tattva, in categorization of it. The nature means you understand how it works, how that affects its application. Then when you understand both of these thats strong. To take one or the other that is not very good. To take the philosophy without the religion, not practical. The best part about it, the humorous part about it is that those people who are more practical, they claim to be more practical, they are the ones that are less inclined towards the Vedic religion. They claim practicality but what they dont understand is that they are still following the religion because if they are practical they understood it by association or observation of the material energy and the material energy has its nature that is God-given. So therefore only if they get it by themselves then it is valuable. If you get it from authority, from sastra we dont want that. Same nature, you can get it by pratyaksa and anumana, or you can get it by sabda, authority. Generally you see that the problem is always: against the authority, that boils down to it. They dont like the scriptures, they dont like the Vedic culture because of authority. But philosophy, you can be an authority and be philosophical. An impersonalist thinks he is God and he is very philosophical. But when you get into the culture then unfortunately you have to be subservient to so many elements, thats a problem. Anything that is dealing with the mode of goodness, anything that is dealing with authority, control of the senses, regulation. These are the things that are considered unpleasant for those who are unappreciative of the Vedic version. So it is always in the same category, it is not that it is in general. Actually all they dont like is the authority of it. And that they have to do it, they have to be submissive, they have to work, they have to get out of ignorance and do something, and when they get out of ignorance best is into goodness. Because when you get out of ignorance you may as well have some passion. Goodness is too renounced, too detached, too seemingly unemotional, not personal, doesnt have the personal element to it. But the point is that this is the only way the personal element comes, is through religion. It doesnt come from passion and ignorance, it comes from goodness. Because when you have something you want to get yourself your own passion it is not guaranteed that the other one will taste the passion also. Thats why the consideration of others. Even if you want someone else to appreciate your passion you have to explain it to them in their terminology in a way that makes it important for them, so that meant that you dealt with them. Devotee (1): If you are dealing with the material energy how do you check if your dealings are correct? Maharaja: You have to be able to see what are the elements that you are actually dealing with, what are the principles that it is functioning. Taking your first explanation: You have a material authority, a boss and you have a job. So here you are working with economics and you are hired by this person. Therefore if you follow his direction on economics and perform those activities to obtain the goal that the boss wants. Then one you are going to get good results and two the boss is really going to like you therefore he will prosper and you will prosper.

Because you are seeing that from that fundamental. You are not looking at him ok he is the boss so therefore everything in my life he is my authority. No, he is authority only in the capacity of economics, in this aspect of generating the money. But what you are going to do with it afterwards that has nothing to do with him. Being able to identify what you are working with that is what is important. In that you are working with him, then there is natural: He is senior you are junior. So you are respectful you do the needful. You are responsible for whatever it is you are given. You do these things that is every bosss dream. So the Vedic applies very well in the modern situation. Because there is no such thing as the modern situation. It is only the perspective of the individual in their illusion that they think it is not connected to Krsna. So the concept of modern is actually illusion, thats why modern must be destroyed. It doesnt mean that the form of it necessarily must be destroyed but what has to be destroyed is the consciousness that generates it. Because whatever situation you are in then you connect that to Krsna. If it is more ideal you connect it to Krsna, if it is less ideal you connect it to Krsna. So it is just a matter of identifying what it is. You need a taxi so therefore according to that then you have to know who you are, the taxi, the street, other people. So then you dont go into the coffee shop and hale a taxi there at the booth or at the phone or go in the bathroom. No, you have to go out on the street that is where they are. How they are recognize that you are trying to interact with them, what are the symptoms, your shouting taxi, your waving your arms, something has to be there. Then you are dealing with them because they are driving the taxi. So you are dealing with them you are hiring them so that makes you technically in one sense you are their boss but only in the way of getting you from point A to point B. How you deal with them that has to be according to etiquette. May be just ordinary etiquette but still you behave properly in a cultured way. Then whatever is the required payment that you pay. You are not trying to get out of it, and only if they have done something special then they might get more. In other words, the Vedic culture applies very well because it is Gods kingdom, it is Gods creation. It is not modern mans creation. It is an illusion to think that it is someone elses. Others are there and making it sound like it is theirs but that doesnt mean it is. You have a car show and so the manufacturers bring their cars. And then they are all displaying their cars and then somebody comes up and stands next to one of the cars and says I made this, this is mine. But the point is the car is still going to run in the same way whether he claims it is his or you understand it belongs to the manufacturer. So if he understands it belongs to the manufacturer then the manual that the manufacturer gives you act according to that. The other you just work by his instructions which wont be as complete as the manual, or he just says yeah yeah do what you like, it doesnt matter, then you have to make it up yourself or figure it out yourself. So they give you a few pointers but they dont give you more than that. And they lived happily ever after. Did they tell how they lived happily ever after? There is not one book that tells. They only indicate and then everyone goes ah yes. And then after that everyone speculates, why? Because there is no religion, they only indicate. Like Sankaracarya in his bhasya on Vedanta-sutra, he only picks a few sutras, ones that are very obviously easy to juggle the words. And after doing that he says like this you go on interpreting, but he doesnt do it himself. While the Vaisnava commentaries every sutra has a commentary because they know Visnu therefore they can connect everything. While the Mayavadis dont therefore there is a lot of things that dont make sense to them. So due to ego they just faness (?) it. That is how you know they dont know because the ego comes up and they faness (?) it. If the ego comes up and they get pointed and more detailed and overwhelm you with facts and figures and applications. Then you know this person has a

lot of experience and he is proud of it. But if you push the point and instead of doing that they pull off some other sentimental element. Pull their age, some kind of rank in the way of age or generation of initiation, or how long they have been around or how old they are, or that they are taller than you, fatter than you, whatever it may be, threaten you, then all these different things, then you can understand they dont actually know. Therefore you are dealing with sentiment, you are not dealing with an actual understanding of the thing. That is the problem that the ego goes in the way, at least the one, the other one has some experience if he gets egotistical it is understandable. But the other one who doesnt know, they are not expert at moving material energy and they wont follow the Vedic those people have zero right to be proud. Devotee (4): The Vedic definition of religion is very broad, there is animal-dharma, or mleccha-dharma then when we are talking about philosophy without religion are we talking about a specific kind of religion? Maharaja: No, that is the mistake. Religion means the inherent nature of something. What is the nature of this cow dung here, that is religion. I know the religion of this cow dung then I can use it properly. I dont know I cant use it. So religion is whatever is the inherent nature. You have a man, there is an inherent nature a woman, there is an inherent nature a dog, there is an inherent nature water, there is an inherent nature a storm, a hurricane, there is an inherent nature so, in other words you understand how everything works. Most people want to reduce religion down to a set of rituals and rites of passage and some possible effect on your lifestyle: your food, or what you wear, however broad it is then it has more effect. But that is only part but that is based on the inherent religion. You are dealing with a human being therefore rites of passage are important because a human being is meant to elevate himself, therefore as the next point we have rituals. We have the nature of the senses, the mind, the intelligence, consciousness. So if there is not some regulation and direction it is not going to be progressive. Because of that therefore there is regulation. So people who take religion to be the external form of it they actually miss the point. That they follow it that is good, but if they reject it they are lost. Because neither do they know why they are doing something nor do they do it. So they are neither accomplishing it on the subtle platform nor on the gross platform. We just chant Hare Krsna and we dont care for the rule, nice. If you know what the rule is for and what it is trying to accomplish. If you are going to accomplish that by chanting Hare Krsna what would you do it any other way? But if you dont know and it may not be working for you. You are saying it is but the result should be observable. Devotee (4): So it is not fair to say that everybody follows a religion Maharaja: It is not fair to say that everybody follows a religion. No, it is exceedingly fair that everyone follows a religion but it is a matter of whether it is God-given or they make it up. Like a scientist he has a religion. He claims I am not following a religion but science is a religion. They say it can only be this way. Their first premise there cant be a God, it has to come from matter. And not only that, in dealing with the matter it can only come from numbers. So it is a very strict narrow religion. From that they have their, they go through their various stages and stuff like that to get to their thing. You are a PhD you are more respected. You have gotten some other thing you have grants, done research, published papers then it works. In the Vedic sense you have a brahmana whether he has published anything or not, he is a respected brahmana, he has knowledge, he speaks so that is his publishing. But in the modern academic you dont produce something then you go by the wayside because this person has so many articles and you dont therefore he gets the seat, it is a religion.

The conditioned soul will either follow Gods religion or will make one up. Like bump into devotees, then either follow religion and offer obeisances or you just try to faness it to not to go through so much trouble vanchas prabhu some kind of thing, they will work something out. Food, it is there, it is maya, it is the senses, so we just stick it on the side in buckets and people can work it out for themselves. That is ok trying to reduce sense gratification but isnt honoring prasada one of the devotional processes? Isnt the interaction between the devotees and other devotees during prasada a major element on how to deepen and cultivate relationships? If that nature is seen then no one would ever take out buckets on the side and let people get it themselves or even do buckets on the side and do a buffet. Unless the situation is such that there is no other way to do it. You would be personally coming around and serving. People have to go there, go sit down, get back up and eat again. That is not human, humans dont do that. It is a subhuman method of eating. It can be used in Krsnas service but understand it is a tribal method. It was developed basically from whatever I can understand historically by the Vikings, whether Swedish or Danish I am not sure but it is Vikings, it is their method. Because they are having a big party, all they do is party so they just put the food out there and you just go up and get when you want if you can stand. So that is where it comes from. They all dont come at the same time and go at the same time, they are just in party mode, therefore that is the purpose. If you dont have a regulated time of eating it might be useful. People are going to come at all times of the day then you have some facility like that then anyone can get food at any time that is nice, because your consideration is that anybody get. But if everybody is supposed to be there at 9 oclock and then you are going to do buffet that is animal life with a capital a. It has nothing to do with human life, it has nothing to do with Vedic culture, it has nothing to do with Gaudiya Vaisnavism it is just expediency for the lazy, the uncultured lazy. So you have to know what is the nature of that you are dealing with then you can come to some conclusions. But if you dont know the nature then how are you going to make a decision? Therefore that is the sambandha. But to understand that it works the sambandha has to be able to be connected to the prayojana. That means the kid wants something to eat, kids like to eat. Therefore if we are dealing with kids we should have lots of nice food and varieties, and regularly available because that is the nature of kids. If you are hosting some sadhus then it should be more refined but it will be more regulated and more specific. They may have a special diet, or special vrata. While the kid is basically as long as it is not vegetables or other things it is fair game. You have to know the nature of what you are dealing with then you can apply, so there is an inherent nature. Thats why we can say men are like this and women are like that, and people get insulted and walk out of the room they are denying their own nature. And if other persons authorities want to back him up that is called foolish, that is called ignorant, that is called he doesnt really know how to preach and what are they doing in that position anyway. That is what we are talking about: This is understanding Vedic culture. It always applies because Gods laws always apply. This idea that it doesnt apply now and this and that. That is why it is principle-based. Principles always apply. Details are given because there is ideal details and then there is next best, next best after that until the point where you just have to make do. But the principle is always obtained, that is the point: the principle is always there. To not understand that means you do not know what Vedic culture is. Therefore if you are professing it people may not be very pleased with it and if you are opposing it then you really proving you are stupid. Because you dont even know what you are opposing. But fortunately then they are not a good opposition, they are not much of an opposition because they actually dont know what they are talking about.

Sakama & niskama-karma. That is a major theme that comes up in the Vedic literatures and in the Gita. They can also go together with pravrtti & nivrtti, yukta-vairagya, yoga ladder, they are all connected, everything is connected. Sakama means it is for yourself, you have an interest in the result, there is desire. Niskama means you are not interested in the result, you are interested in the activity. The neophyte is interested in the activity therefore he has to do the activity. If he could get the result without the activity he wouldnt do the activity. Naiskarmya means the result is not the main element, it is the performance of the activity that is important. Since you are not getting the result then you are happy to do the activity. This sakama: In the beginning ones motive for doing most anything is generally because there is some personal motive, that is not the problem. The problem is maintaining that. It says maintaining material attachments even after hearing so much. It didnt say having them. Did it say: the 10th offence is having material attachments? No, it says maintaining them. Very important, devotees will take it you have one you are offensive. No, it is maintaining it. That you have it and you are trying to get rid of it that is progressive. Even if you havent gotten rid of it but that isnt still considered a fault. Therefore Krsna says this person is saintly. Because he sees a fault and he wants to get rid of it. Whether he can or not that is a whole other point, but he wants to, he sees it is wrong. So having a desire that is not a problem. That the desire is only for yourself and is not necessarily beneficial for your Krsna consciousness, that is the problem. The desire is not the problem because you may want to do something because it gives you a result. But now if that result is for Krsna then you want to do that same something because it will get a nice result for Krsna, so that is the difference between sakama and niskama. Sakama starts that way but with practice it should turn into niskama, with practice it should transform, gradually gradually. So depending upon ones practice and ones own conditioned nature different elements may be more sakama or other elements may be more niskama. Someone in general will be more detached and someone in general will be more attached but even within there will be divisions. You can start off with a box but you should understand that when you deal with that box, putting things into a box that there is going to be variety, there is going to be considerations. So you start off with generalities but as soon as you start to work with it then you have to apply those generalities. That means you have to deal with details. So you have to be able to accommodate that there is variety. Someone is very advanced in one area but not in another, that bewilders some devotees. He is so advanced in this, he leads such nice kirtana or does this. No, that is where his naiskarmya is, he is able to do that. But in another area it is not, that is where his sakama is. That is the whole idea that it is no great deal to take advantage of the other persons sakama element, you already have your own ones, you dont need more of them. What you are doing is taking advantage of their niskama, where that person has: this person leads nice kirtana therefore associate with them in kirtana, but when they sit down to take prasada and turn into a prasada monster then that you might sit on the other side of the prasada hall. But dont worry, their place where they have done the most focus and advancement is in kirtana so take advantage of that and then sit next to someone who is more cultured when you eat prasada. But generally really good kirtaneers are generally also really good cooks, how I dont know, but the two go together. Devotee (5): Can sakama and niskama be anna-maya and prana-maya?

Maharaja: You could say maybe the activity but the purpose behind might be opposite. You might be engaging the senses for Krsnas pleasure, or you might be performing the religious activity for the purpose is your own. Sakama and niskama means what is your idea of the result, who does the result belong to? What area you are dealing in that doesnt matter, it is a matter who the result is for. That is a definition with the prayojana Pravrtti & Nivrtti. That will be the same thing. Pravrtti means the path of attachment nivrtti means the path of detachment. The path of attachment is in general going to be your own, sakama. And nivrtti is in general going to be niskama, without attachment. But it may be within this, nivrtti generally always will be that, that is the natural form of it and how it applies. Within the pravrtti though you can be using the form of pravrtti in the mood of nivrtti. Therefore following the Vedic culture and following Vedic household life, that would be called pravrtti. Brahmacari, sannyasa that is nivrtti. But in that they may be connecting everything nicely to Krsna and the result is not for themselves. Therefore the element of sannyasa that is an attitude. Because renunciation it is mine and then I give it away. So you tell they are very renounced. But technically even within that renunciation there is sakama and sannyasa as niskama because it is mine, the result is mine then I give it away. So you always have to be able to see that you have the broad category and it will have two divisions. But within each of those divisions you can separate them into two because they will be more this way more that way. Then you take one of those parts and you can again. That is why it is so important to be able to apply the principle: you know the principles, you have faith that they always apply and then you try to apply them. Then it is a matter of knowing what level thats the other the experience will give and knowing that this applies at all levels. So then knowing at which you are at. Am I at the greater aspect of the overall general thing of the principle, or is it starting to go at one aspect of the principle and then applying the principle again on itself in one aspect. We have sambandha, abhidheya and prayojana, that is the principle. We can take sambandha and apply that same principle on itself then you get sambandha, abhidheya and prayojana within sambandha. So it is just a matter of keep applying it again. Then you get finer and finer things. At the same time what you are dealing with then is the more obvious, the more detail you get into the more gross it is. That is the way creation works: you have pradhana, undiscerned. You add the false ego, then it separates. Then you add false ego again then you get the grosser manifestation of false ego, or the subtle. Then you add it again false ego then you get intelligence. Again add false ego you get mind. Again add then you get ether. Again add like this until you get keep adding to until you get earth, that is the maximum. So you are applying the same principle on it in a finer degree, so the principle always stands because the principle can be reapplied in a finer details. So not understanding this so they think the principle doesnt apply because it only applies to this, but when you drop it down to here then it doesnt apply, that is the mistake. Devotee (6): Relationship between sakama and niskama and ones talents. My observation is that if I am a good kirtana leader then I am more envious of the other kirtana leaders. So there is more sakama Maharaja: That is what you are starting with. But that will inspire you to do kirtana because you want to be better than everyone else, you want to be the best kirtaneer. But having done that if you are understanding the process then you become purified and then with time you will know that you are leading kirtans so that everybody will appreciate so now you lead kirtana just to please Krsna.

So it starts with the sakama but that motivates you to do it otherwise you will be in ignorance. Therefore desire isnt really the problem, it is whether you connect it or not. You dont connect it then it is a big problem because then you get yourself into more trouble but being able to connect that that purifies it. At the same time between the ignorant man who does nothing and the man with all desires, the man with all desires is easier to work with because he is already moving, abhidheya is happening. Now it is just a matter of adjusting his understanding and attitude and then results are still coming but the lazy man even if you adjust his mentality still he does nothing. Passion is better than ignorance because at least there is movement. Ignorance, how do you understand anything. Passion, you understand this is nice this is not nice but ignorance it is just nothing works. Devotee (6): A really stubborn person would have to gain mastery over all aspects of culture and art in order to become niskama in every area of his life? Maharaja: Could be, but generally you are only dealing with what is important to you. If only two, three things are important to you that is all you have to deal with. The other things will just come easy you dont think about them. But those are the areas that is where you can do it and if you can be successful in one then you can apply it to the others. If I can cook a cauliflower then I can also cook a potato, the process is it is just a matter of understanding the difference. Devotee (6): Are you realized that after so much effort to develop that skill it didnt yield the happiness that I was looking for Maharaja: It didnt reveal the mundane happiness but that is where it becomes a problem. If they give it up at that point then that becomes a problem. Means that it inspired them to do it then the sakama is not really a problem. By good association, practice and sadhana they can bring it to niskama. But if before they brought it to niskama, they have the knowledge that it doesnt give any satisfaction, they have experienced that but they havent actually experienced a higher taste, then they just drop it due to ignorance, not due to goodness. So therefore it will come up again. While the other one once it is dropped it is dropped, it is gone. Thats why you see so many devotees they have problems in their marriage. So they see marriage as a problem. Sastras say that so think now I am renounced and then they leave, and then you see him some time later riding by in a rickshaw with some lady. The renunciation wasnt connected with Krsna and the renunciation wasnt realization, it was understanding. But he was supposed to have that understanding from day one, strange it took him ten years to figure that out, hat is called stub-born, that is called stupid. He should have known that before he went into it then following the right process then he would actually be able to judge what actual happiness you can get from it. Because the point is there is only so much material happiness you can get from something and there is no way to get it other than the Vedic principle. But if you do it in ignorance then you think it is more than what it is. But if you do it in knowledge then you know it for what it actually is. Because if there is no attachment then you see it as it is. You dont make it greater and you dont make it lesser, it is just exactly what it is. If we have that mentality then whatever situation we put ourselves in it doesnt matter because the process is exactly the same. The formulas are the same whether you apply it on any asrama or any varna, they are the same formulas. It is just the medium that the formula is expressed through that changes, that is according to taste, that according to conditioned nature one will be better situated here or

there because it relates better with this form of application than that form of application. (end of lecture) (end) October 9, 2008 Maharaja: Yukta-vairagya. Here we have two: yukta meaning the connection or engagement, and vairagya meaning detachment. So yukta-vairagya means everything can be used in Krsnas service. Yuktavairagya doesnt mean everything can be used. Therefore when we are performing activity, yukta-vairagya, we should make sure that it is engaged or connected to Krsna. Otherwise just do anything and someone is saying why are you doing that? Oh, yukta-vairagya. That doesnt necessarily explain it. Yukta-vairagya means it explains the process of I am engaging something in Krsnas service. So now because it is being engaged, like before, it can be sakama or niskama, or it can be from the area of pravrtti or nivrtti. Because generally we take yukta-vairagya meaning that it is something of attachment, it can also be something of detachment. What we call detachment in this world because the point is what is connected to Krsna that is actually the naiskarmya, and what is not connected to Krsna then that is our own idea. Therefore mundane detachment is also not something important for devotional service. Therefore engaging the elements of detachment in Krsnas service then that also becomes yukta-vairagya. Therefore the whole varnasrama-system and all that is able to be connected to Krsna. Because in this world it is not automatically connected, in the spiritual world it is. But here you can connect to Him or not depending upon your consciousness. Then the yukta-vairagya takes on the element that whether it is your own desire and therefore you are connecting it, or it is just something useful to connect in Krsnas service then that is there, or whether it is from the area of attachment or from detachment, it doesnt matter. Devotee (1): How is acting properly in relationships with other living entities pleasing to Krsna? Maharaja: Because all these living entities have come from Krsna and are Krsnas. So you have to act appropriately for what is their position and how they are dealing with you. So therefore if you have a dacoit, your relationship with a dacoit is to run in the opposite direction. If they are chasing you then you run because that is just your relationship with the dacoit. The point is just what is appropriate means you have to deal properly. So there is no undue violence. Violence technically means what is not connected to Krsna, that is actual violence. That means then something that creates physical harm, if it is not within the duty, then it is violence. Or physical pain, lets say someone is giving another person a massage from medicinal purposes and it may hurt, so that violence is not violence because it is according to the duty. And if one is following therefore the authority of the sastra for applying the medical science we see that it is connected to Krsna. Or maintaining our health for Krsnas service therefore according to the particular medicinal system, we are applying that properly because it has its rules, its dharma also, its nature. Because that science has come from God so we are following that nicely. And then our motive for applying it and all those things, we are using it, but it may hurt. Or the doctor may operate so he has to cut, but that doesnt mean that it is violence.

Violence means when it is not sanctioned by sastra. So then technically we see on the battlefield of Kuruksetra that is not violence, that is war, that is fighting but it is not violence. Because it is the dharma of war and they have a actual bona fide cause for war. If they dont have a proper cause for war, just there is a peaceful village doing nothing and people come in violently, start fighting and killing people that is violence. But if it is a bona fide situation if it is war. And it is done according to religious principles: It is outside, it is only soldiers fighting, so therefore it is not violence. If they were fighting in the city and therefore the city is being destroyed, innocent people are killed, that is violence. That is the whole idea one has to actually understand what is the real definition of things. In other words it is connected to Krsna, then it doesnt carry these qualities. Devotee (1): How does one make the indirect connection to Krsna more direct? Maharaja: That has to be more prominent in the consciousness. There are two basic ways that you are dealing with it, you can say three, because you have body, mind and words. Body means you are following the ritual, whatever is the rule on the activity you are following that according to sastra, and that is your determination. It is not by accident you are following it, it is that you know that it is there and therefore you are following it. Like after you brush your teeth you rinse your mouth twelve times with water, that is sastra. You are following that because of that so therefore it regulates it. So it brings it closer. It is more observable, more direct. It is not actual direct but it is coming closer. Then if someone doesnt know it is ok sastra says you have to be clean so after things dealing with things putting things in the mouth, the mouth is washed, so you are not dealing with numbers, but the principle of washing your mouth after eating or going to the bathroom, or taking your bath, these kinds of things. Touching something impure then the mouth is washed. It is based on the sastra, it doesnt have so much technical detail but it is only that one. Or it may be just I am supposed to be clean so how much I know about cleanliness I am clean. So therefore the person knows that they are supposed to be clean so whatever is their standard of cleanliness they follow that. But they are still following the cleanliness, they are conscious that they are doing it because of its connection to Krsna. It is getting less technical as we go but it is still connected to Krsna. Or it is I cleaned only because I like things clean, I dont see it that it is necessarily a social necessity or that there is some rule on it, there is some religious obligation to be clean, just I like things clean. I do feel that everybody else should be clean, how can they be dirty? But it is just I like it. But then since I like something whatever I do I do it for Krsna therefore I like cleaning I like cleaning for Krsna. So it is getting further and further away and more and more just our own interest. It is being simple but it is still being connected. That is the whole point there is nothing that cant everything comes from Krsna so it is already connected to Krsna. It is not a matter of that you cant connect it to Krsna. It already is, it is just a matter of do you want to recognize it or not, or can you recognize it or not? That is the point: It is already connected to Krsna and it already is Krsnas. But you see it in a particular perspective that is not connected to Krsna, that is the problem. Krsna, it is just His material energy. We put it into this brick pillar, but it is still His energy, it is still His earth. That is the whole point: It is still His. So it is already connected to Him. Its potency is coming from Him. He pervades everything, it is His residence, so many things. It is already His. We are thinking of that, oh this is very nice, it is natural this, this is disgusting why dont they plaster it, dont they have any taste? Or, oh this is nice, nice bricks and all that, handmade bricks. And the others are like hand-made bricks, nothing is straight, why cant they get proper bricks, in India they have all these stupid bricks. Means we put our perspectives onto it, but now whether those perspectives will connect to Krsna that is a whole

other topic. That is the topic though that is of the discussion. But it is already connected to Him. So all we are doing is, we are connecting, it is not that because I have connected it it has become connected, that is the Buddhist concept. I was in the forest, the tree fell over, it made noise. If I am not in the forest and the tree fell over would it actually make noise? That is what the Buddhists sit around and waste their time with. The Christians is how many angels is on the head of a pin? How many can dance there? One thing they never come up with: one kind of dancing they are doing, because that also can mean whether they need more space or not. If they are doing ball-room dancing that is one thing, if they are doing barn-dancing that is another thing you need a little more space, if its, it just depends on what they are doing. They never consider that, they think theyll be more deep in their contemplation because it is like, how many people could be here? Well, it depends, are they standing, sitting, laying down. So if they want to know how many angels are on the head of a pin they would have to decide what exactly they are doing. If they are doing swing then they need lots of space. What is being said depends upon the particular previous samskaras, whether they understand what I am talking about or not. This is the whole idea, we are becoming aware. Body means we are going to use the rules and regulations. In other words the vaidhi-sadhana that is going to engage the body. Of course, you have to use intelligence to understand and apply it, and the mind has to accept it. But the prominent feature is the body, thats why most people when they think about religion they think of those rules that control the body, and that is religious. The other thing is that we have the attitude in which we are doing the activity. Because there is activity and the attitude in which it is done. These two are the main. That is the mind, so the attitude that the mind has that is important. So if the attitude is right, that means the character is right, then the activity will naturally be of good quality. But that ensures that it is of good quality the activity and whatever it is that you want to get from it, from it sakama and niskama is derived. But still, and because you are following sastra that is pious, that is uplifting. The attitude is right that makes it even better. The best the attitude is you are doing it for Krsna, that develops your love for Krsna, frees you from material bondage. Now to speed that process of freeing oneself from material bondage, it doesnt quicken the process of developing prema, but it quickens the process of removing the obstacles that keep prema from happening, means material consciousness. Then the intelligence is used in the way of contemplation. So that is then where all the technical elements and the meta-physics come in: 3 modes of nature, 5 levels of consciousness basically what we are discussing in all these definitions. Much of that is the meta-physical, some of it is not. When it is meta-physical then everyone sits around and either understands or blinks their eyes. But as soon as we get to the physical, the body, varnasrama then that is immediately where all the because that we identify more as religion. But religion means the inherent nature of something, both physically, mentally or emotionally and intellectually, when we are dealing with the mundane. Then we have the nature of the soul, or of the spiritual, nature of Godhead, nature of the spiritual realm. That is not understood as religion. Religion simply means the nature of something. So the body should be engaged in a certain way therefore there is rules to do that because that will then the body has effect because we identify it. It has effect on the mind and intelligence. So that is why there is only certain things you can do with the body. People not knowing that and say why should we be restricted? We can do whatever we want. And then when they get a bad result they are already too covered to actually understand that it is coming from what they are doing.

It is like the parent is overlyin other words they are liberal to the child to the extent that they dont actually establish for them standards. It is one thing to liberally apply standards but most liberals dont have a standard to apply it to. These kind of unspoken things that are contradictory and not necessarily have any describable form, or at least they cant describe them. Just be good, be nice. But what is good and nice changes from time to time, and sometimes it is foolish. You are trying to be nice. The man lost his wallet and then he sees another person with that same exact wallet. He thinks they stole his wallet. That person goes over to the person with the wallet, steals it from them and runs off. Then having run off they look at the wallet and figure out it is not theirs. Then they come running back because they made a mistake and they want to give it back. The person that they stole it from now thinks that they are coming to steal more things or to injure or kill them because they have seen them, so they go running off and go to the police and now the guy ends up in jail. So it was just a very badly applied mistake. So now if he was really intelligent he would know if I go back there they may think this so therefore let me apply it in some other way. Either go to the authorities and say this is what happened, here is a wallet etc. or go they have some address and go deliver it to their house. Or send it to another person and explain it, or call them on the phone. Whatever it is, you can find some way that they can understand the situation and get their wallet back and it wouldnt have created any problems. But just be good, oh I should go and give this back now, it might not have its good application. Be nice to the snorreling dog, it might bite your arm off. There has to be something that regulates it otherwise because God has created things. So He knows actually the nature of something. Therefore because they physical nature will have consequences later that will affect both physically, emotionally, intellectually and spiritually. So it will affect all the levels of the atma, the self. So each one cant be something that will get in the way of the other. That is why the balance is there. Krsna consciousness, devotion is the only thing that is actually balanced. Because karma will be overbalanced and not giving enough attention to the soul and the intellect but emotion and the body very nicely it takes care of. Jnana will take care of the intellect, it may not take care of the actual nature of the soul. It takes care of part of it, the eternal aspect and not beyond that. But emotionally and physically it wont be dealing with anything. So the devotion, bhakti then combines these. The benefits of the physical, emotional, intellectual and the devotional, the spiritual. All that is nicely balanced. So that is why then one hears from authorities, based on that then one follow rules. That is your religion, and how all these different things come up. So these later chapters once they have described the activities that have been done, the attitude in which it is done, then they get into the intellect behind it. So all these things can bring it closer. If you have the right attitude then these emotions will come, then you can see that the relationships and all that is coming from Krsna, emotions are coming from Krsna but basically it will be dependent on the intelligence. The intelligence has to control the mind. So you follow the proper activities, try to cultivate the proper attitudes and try to see through the eyes of sastra how all these things are functioning, the technicality, the meta-physics. Through these ways you can bring it closer. Devotee (1): If I perceive an indirect connection to the asrama then what is the impetus to remain in that position? Maharaja: Your attachment to it. Knowledge is not enough to stop attachment. Every smoker knows smoking is bad for them. But they dont stop. Everybody knows it is good to go to

mangala-aratika. These things are there. So an intellectual understanding is not enough. Therefore just because you have an intellectual understanding doesnt mean it is given up. Having an intellectual understanding means now you can actually properly perform manana. Because manana means intellectual understanding with the actual skill, the proper knowledge, skill and habit to do it. In other words, you have learned the skill and the knowledge but you may not understand it. So you externally perform the skill by performing it you see what works and what doesnt work and then you start to try to understand the skill better. So you apply the knowledge in that way to get an understanding of application of the skill. Then having performed the application, means by that you develop good habit because you start become expert at it and good at it. So then you can contemplate in various ways to perform the activity nicely. Then you may understand how this fits into the spiritual process. That is good, that will make your contemplation even better. That means your application can be more refined. But now through that application, that practice then comes realization. So until you get to realization, the knowledge is a step to get to realization. But that knowledge will only get you to realization if the practice is going on. So if in household life you see the technical connections and all that and understand that this isnt so important but the point is that it is only with that understanding it is not so important dealing with it in its appropriate way, the proper way, then youll get realization. Proper way means no one else knows that you think it is not important. If someone can figure that out then you are not doing it right. That is probably the most misunderstood point in application of the technicalities of devotional service of knowledge and the meta-physics into their practical life because we have become by habit by being in the material world, jnana means no action and karma means no jnana. So I am doing the activity as long as I am attracted and as soon as I have some knowledge or understanding of it I stop doing the activity because that is what we have done since time immemorial. I am inspired, as a karmi, I do the activity. As soon as I get knowledge I become a jnani and I stop doing the activity. But the point is if you stop you wont get realization. Therefore the jnanis never come to this high platform of understanding which is realization. The impersonalists technically never get an experience how they get knowledge past paroksa, which is the level of prana-maya. Consciousness maybe in vijnana-maya, but they are not gaining knowledge from that platform, they are still only getting it from pranamaya. Energy life around, this guy does that, see how he is suffering so material world is a place of suffering. They are still getting it on the paroksa-level. They never get to aparoksa, or adhoksaja. They cant experience the Lord in everything and all that. They may experience Brahman, but then that is just, it is a material energy, it is still someone else. So they are just experiencing material energy which is maya. Parvati devi she is a person, so they are just getting the knowledge from there, so it is not going beyond. One thinks they are higher, but they are not. Only devotees can actually get to these higher stages as ways of actually learning. Others can perceive to some degree, you can give example, but they dont learn from there, that is not how they gain their knowledge. That is the idea: all these things should be happening simultaneously and at different levels. You can have a brahmana, which means naturally situated in dharma which means mana-maya as an occupation and he is performing religious duties but his whole purpose of it is artha. So it can be in different places. Excuse me, he is situated jnana in knowledge, so he is performing his duties to go down. He is situated in occupation in vijnana-maya, but his activities are mana-maya and his consciousness, his purpose, his attitude is prana-maya. Anything can go any direction. Thats why we explain it from all these different directions.

One, be situated in your duty because that is what is the field of your activities. Then get your attitude right. Your forgiving, you have all these nice qualities that are there so that you just relax, then you can see things properly. Then you have knowledge. So body, mind and words, so then that is all done. Then you see that all that has to be in relationship to the Supreme, then you bring in the soul. Therefore perform your duties, that is the body, and it means, the Vedic means, it includes the attitude because the duty goes with the attitude. Then with knowledge, so now you have gotten body, mind and words. Then doing that for Krsna. Then you bring in the devotional. All these things are discussing the same thing. But from different angles so that we make sure so that we go in and root something out exactly whats the problem. The yoga-ladder Buddhi-yoga, karma-yoga, jnana-yoga, dhyana-yoga, bhakti-yoga. You can call them a ladder because you are going up through it but they are applied not necessarily as a ladder. Means you have karma-yoga. That is engaging the body and the senses in the Lords service. Jnana-yoga where you are engaging the intellect in the Lords service. Dhyana-yoga where you are engaging the mind in meditation, not in emotions. The karma-yoga will be the body and mind engaged. So the senses because the senses include the mind because the sense only works when the mind is there. Sense gratification happens only because the mind is involved. No mind, no sense gratification. Those two go together. Dhyana is the mind is being used in meditation, but the emotional element is not involved. Bhakti will be the body, mind and words are engaged in the Lords service. Bhakti means it is devotion. So technically speaking, you really want to be technical, bhakti starts at prema. Even though there will be ten descriptions of the level of prema with bhava as the bud or the beginning. But technically devotion begins with prema because then there is no consideration other than that love for Krsna. That means everything below that then the technical considerations are there to make sure that they come to the proper standard, so that they are not an obstacle to the unfolding of this pure unalloyed devotion. In that the karma-yoga, jnana-yoga and dhyana-yoga then encompass all the levels from the neophyte to the uttama-adhikari. The neophyte will be basically situated in karma-yoga, the Madhyama will be situated in jnana-yoga and the uttama will be situated in dhyana-yoga. And the neophyte depending upon who they are there maybe the other elements, the jnanayoga also included. It is just a matter whether they are dealing with sakama or niskama. Because jnana-yoga means naiskarmya. But it already includes the last meaning that when you are doing jnana, means buddhi-yoga means they are combined. So we are using buddhi-yoga when one moves from karma-yoga to jnana-yoga there would be no karma-yoga. But what happens is the consciousness, the focus is on jnana-yoga but karma, the same activities are being performed, the same sadhana is there. The sadhana doesnt change. Buddhi-yoga is a combination of these three. So when Krsna says perform your duties karma-yoga, in knowledge jnana-yoga, remembering me dhyana-yoga and doing it for Me bhakti-yoga. That combination that is buddhi-yoga. That is what the Gita is explaining. Buddhi-yoga is used to get us situated in devotional service and out of the material world, and then continuing into getting you into the spiritual world. But when it gets to that point then basically we dont call it buddhi-yoga any more. Generally we call it buddhi-yoga up to the point of liberation. Once one gets to that point of brahma-bhuta then generally that is called bhava-bhakti. It is still the same thing where the dhyana is the main element, the others are there but generally we call it by this other terminology.

There is a progression but at the same time it is not that they dont all go on at once, in other words all four of them happen simultaneously. The latter is which one is prominent. Because even in the spiritual world they are using their body and senses in the Lords service, they are using their intelligence in the Lords service, their devotion is to the Lord, but we dont call it buddhi-yoga, or it is not part of the yoga-ladder, we just call it prema, premabhakti. Like you have food, but if there is a lot of it you call it a meal, but if there is a small amount of it you call it a snack. But it is the same thing. The whole thing is the same thing but because of the fullness of it it is called, we just refer to as prema, or bhava-bhakti, bhavasadhana. Specifically in the neophyte and in the madhyama state that is more where we call it buddhi-yoga. Devotee (1): In niskama-karma-yoga when one is not attached to the activities that is jnanayoga? Maharaja: That is jnana-yoga. Because you are attached to the activity, not to the result of the activity. You have a conditioned nature so therefore you are going to serve Krsna with that conditioned nature. So it is easier to engage your conditioned nature than to engage some other nature. In other words you do the activities that you like to do according to your conditioned nature. That is your jnana-yoga. That is naiskarmya, you are doing it but the results are Krsnas. The neophyte tends to be result-oriented, that he is doing it, the result is for himself. As he does that and becomes purified then he starts to give the desire for that result and does it just to please Krsna. But that activity that he is performing he is more comfortable performing that activity to Krsna. Devotee (2): When one performs an activity there is not still devotional interaction between devotee and the Lord then can it be considered that that person is in buddhi-yoga? Maharaja: That is buddhi-yoga, yes. As long as you are here, until you are on the platform of bhava then know that you are in buddhi-yoga. It is just a matter of whether you are using it fully or not. The point is that the emotion hasnt developed, that is fine as long as you are fixed and determined and know that is what you should be doing, that is what you want to do. By performing knowledge in that state for some time, then the next stage starts to come. Means you have heard everything and your beginning practices are not very expert and your knowledge is not very good, but with time it becomes. You will know, you are skilled, you are able to do. By continuing in that position naturally the next stage develops. Just like if I continue hearing and continue practicing on the first level I will get to the second level. By continuing on the second level that proper, I will get to the third. If one is finding the service is stable and steady, one is not distracted and disturbed, it is not sentimental that is the only reason you are doing it, that itself is going to get you, you are going to move forward very nicely. It is just a matter of keeping that knowing that the point is to develop your love for Krsna. Then that taste will come. Then from that taste all the emotional elements start to develop. Because from taste comes attachment. Taste is desire, interest, oh let looks interesting. So taste comes attachment. And from attachment then comes activity, bhava. So there is a taste for the transcendental, means that personal interaction. There is an attachment for it, then there will be the activity itself. But one must be able to distinguish these three. Some dont distinguish that within the realm of that natural attraction they dont distinguish between those three levels. They cant tell the difference. They just take it that there is an interest, an attraction but that point is having become freed from anarthas one comes to nistha, one is fixed. Then we are dealing with again body,

mind and words but on another level. Because now it is fixed in the devotional process. So we are starting to deal with the transcendental. While before that the neophyte is not really aware of the transcendental, so therefore body, mind and words are trying to engage there, but they are unsteady. As he becomes steady then we can talk about now dealing with body, mind and words on another platform. That brings it to the stage of brahma-bhuta. Then in there it is a matter of, there is an interest, one has an activity, one has service, there is an interest but it has to become a need. And that need when that becomes very fixed then that endeavor is made then that is what brings you to prema. Devotee (2): The emotion comes and goes, sometimes it is there sometimes notfirst stage Maharaja: Yes, it is between the first and second. Because we understand that when we say nistha we mean that they are fixed in the devotional practice and it means that the mind is not specifically focused on material, in other words the attitude is good. But it may not always be absorbed in the transcendental. But you are engaged properly in the service, you are not engaged in something else. But with time when that comes to the point of taste, ruci, then we see that starts to become more and more prominent. So just continue. Devotee (1): Does a prema-bhakta have an attachment to a particular service or activity? Maharaja: Basically they are their service or activity. Here it is different but there because of the mentality they have a particular form, so that form then gives the duties. Because of the attitude they have duties. Here it is through duties we are trying to awaken attitude. We are using the reverse. The physical then we do the attitude, then the intellectual, then we move on to the then we are out of the material world. But devotion, it is yoga, because each one of them has been connected to bhakti. So it is karma connected to bhakti, jnana connected to bhakti, dhyana connected to bhakti. So bhakti is the constant element. And that just grows as your devotion grows, and as it grows then these other elements also naturally unfold. So the point is as you said before you have an understanding of something but that doesnt mean one has to leave that. And then the fun part is, because you need to be doing that activity with that knowledge to get to realization. Once you get to realization you dont need the activity any more. But at the same time because you are realized, you have no need for it, you can be engaged in it or not. So the neophyte, lets say, we are talking grhastha-asrama, has desires, he has to be married because he wants the results of that family exchange and facility and whatever is his drive. As a madhyama then he understands there is nothing really here though there is the natural habit to be in that situation. By that knowledge he is able to deal with it properly and so therefore his effectiveness in the grhastha-asrama and his experience is actually greater than the neophyte, though the neophyte is actually attached to it and wants it. He gets it because he doesnt want it. But now when it comes to the uttama-platform, one would think at that point why would you would be there? But to him it doesnt matter because there is nothing to gain or lose from the material interaction because to him it is not material, he is only dealing with Krsnas energy. Therefore how do people like Pandavas, or Srila Prabhupada, or Bhaktivinoda Thakura, he had 10 children, how do they do that? Because to them it doesnt matter, they have nothing to gain from it. We make that comment: How can he do that? Because to us that is important. It is a material desire therefore if you are spiritual we cant have that material. But they dont have any material desire. So whether they are grhastha, sannyasi, it doesnt matter to them. Therefore we see these great devotees they come many times in their different forms and sometimes it is a consistent form because that is the whole idea in their you can see that thread. And other times they come as, sometimes they come as this and sometimes they comes as that, the direct opposite. So it doesnt matter to them.

The alwars. One comes as a king, one comes as a sudra, one comes as a lady. They just dont care. Just whatever is important for the pastime they would come and perform those activities. (end of lecture) Devotee (2): By conscious practice one can become an uttama-adhikari? Maharaja: By conscious practice you can be qualified to be invited to the uttama-adhikari. By your determination and practice you can go from a neophyte to a madhyama, but it is by invitation only that you become an uttama. So when your attitude, your service and everything is attractive then you will be invited into the bhava-bhakti club. Devotee (3): What is the difference between the dhyana-yoga stage and jnana-yoga stage? Maharaja: Dhyana-yoga means you are always absorbed in thinking of Krsna in His pastimes. Jnana-yoga means you are seeing the mechanics of the material world, the modes of nature and everything, how that is functioning. In other words, karma-yoga means you are seeing the physical form in the material world and its functioning, so you are properly performing your skill. Jnana-yoga means you seeing the meta-physics behind it how it is working. Like karma you see bricks, jnana-yoga you see that it is Krsnas energies that are holding it up. Dhyana-yoga you just see Krsna. You just absorb yourself in Krsna in His pastimes. In other words, the jnana-yoga you are dealing with the element of sat, eternality because the soul is sac-cid-ananda so we are dealing with that. By this we are slowly slowly pulling our way out. Because ananda, we get used to ananda being in the material world, so relationship to here, so we have to pull ourselves out of the material through this process of knowledge situating yourself on the transcendental. Then only can the ananda, or actual rasa come up. Means you have to pull out one into the other, so you do that by going through the Brahmanstage. Because brahma-bhuta means you are on the Brahman platform. But you understand it is different from the impersonalist concept because the impersonalists think Brahman is it. They know everything is Brahman we know everything is Brahman but they dont know where it comes from, but we know Brahman is Krsna, it is His existence potency. Krsna exists, everything exists because it is in Krsna. So it is appreciating Krsna on the Brahman-platform. We know it is Krsna, the impersonalists only know that it is Brahman, so there is a difference between our personal understanding of Brahman realization and the impersonal concept of Brahman realization. Then from there you see how Krsna is working in it to making it all happen, that is the Paramatma aspect. He is the one that sanctions and controls. Seeing all that, so you see it is all Brahman, then how it is working in the modes and all that that brings it to Paramatma. But from there the idea is that Krsna is doing all this so then His pastimes with His devotees is much more interesting as His pastimes as Paramatma or Brahman. So naturally the devotee because of understanding that developing love for Krsna is the goal he wont get stuck in these interim stages. That is why when you always focus on the goal then the action will be correct. You stop the focus you stop the action. You stop focusing develop love of Krsna you get to the Brahman level then you are just situated in Brahman. So you dont move forward. You always have to keep that. Thats why you are cultivating both: Always remembering Krsna never forgetting Him. Karma and jnana are how to never forget Krsna and the dhyana, bhakti that is always remember Krsna. (end)