The Visionary Industrialist (1893-1978)

By Deepak Bisaria, India

[This article was written by Mr Bisaria in 1995 when he was in Mr Raos research class, it was published in 2008 in JOA. SA]

I
The writer, with a marketing background is
in the corporate world and works for a reputed company, at a senior position. He is a teacher in the Institute of Astrology at the Bharatiya Vidya Bhawan, has done the two year course in astrology. He is now the editor of the Journal of Astrology in which some of his major researches have been published. He has taken pains to collect authentic details about Rajendra Prasad, the first President of independent India and has produced a long astro-sketch. Here is another one where he once again approaches the subject through composite astrological technique of Vimshottari and Chara dashas.

n the wake of economic liberalization, globalization and the big leaps in information technology now, when India is gripped with the frenzy of grow rich philosophy, with the Internet and its websites to aid, it is good to remember a remarkable personality of Indias business world, of yesteryears, R.K. Dalmia. When we talk of Bill Gates, Azim Premji, Harshad Mehta, Dhirubhai Ambani and Hindujas, a little earlier of Mundhra, we have to remember Dalmia who was an adventurer. He was a multi-faceted personality. He was a strict vegetarian. He stopped taking cereals to protest against cow slaughter. From childhood he read books on religion and mythology. Perhaps, this was the reason for his strong faith in religion and Indian system of life. He was ambitious, impulsive, impatient, egoist, determined, courageous, strong-willed, generous and an optimist. At times he displayed child-like emotions. A habitual

gambler, a business strategist and a

political lobbyist, he became one of the top

industrialists of India in 1947-48. With the kind of vision he had he would have been a shining star on Indian economic scene.

It is generally said that rich marwaris of India went out with a lota (a thing like tumbler) to a new place like Bengal and Assam and built huge fortunes. In this context R.K. Dalmias story of rags to riches is fascinating. R.K. Dalmias horoscope is give n in the Memorial Volumes. But the horoscope given by late Shri Gopesh Kumar Ojha seems to be accurate. Shri Ojha had served under Shri R.K. Dalmia. In his writings he has discussed his horoscope to explain the multiple marriages with the help of three extra Saturnine planets, Herschel, Neptune and Pluto. His multiple marriages, all orthodox and sacramental, though can also be explained without using these planets. The material used in this paper has been obtained mostly from Memorial Volumes (Smriti Granths) published by one of the trusts of the Dalmia Group. There is distinct neechbhanga rajyoga in the tenth house, caused by debilitated Mercury which is the lagna and fourth lord, with exalted Venus. Through this example the results of neechbhanga rajyoga can be understood better. This will be explained while analysing events through the composite technique of simultaneous use of Vimshottari and Char dashas. The Saturnsun opposition is the major cause of his defamation, downfall and persecution by the authorities. The mutual aspect of Jaimini, AK-Amk, DK, BK, MK, Venus, Moon and the fifth lord is a unique combination, which gives strength to the horoscope. It is excellent for rise in career as the combination constitutes almost all rajyogas of Jaimini and has the focus on the tenth house from lagna and tenth house from Moon. AK and Amk are also aspecting this combination. Lagna is in the intellectual sign of Gemini and Moon in the war-like sign of Sagittarius is indicative of the potential for rise and growth. Lagna, the third, fourth and fifth lord in the tenth from lagna and ninth, tenth and the eleventh lord in the fourth from Moon is a good combination for rise in career. The lord of seventh and tenth and the eleventh lord in fourth from Moon is a good combination for rise in career. Lord of seventh and tenth in eleventh from lagna and moons dispositor and fourth lord in fifth from Moon add to strength of the horoscope. The combinations with the focus on the tenth house makes him a karamyogi The lagna lord and the lord of the fourth, mercury is debilitated in the tenth house and is afflicted by Rahu-Ketu, Saturn and mars in the Navamsha. Ramkrishan suffered from a

serious ring worm infection at the age of 11 in the period of Venus-sun. Both are with mercury, the lagna lord. He was lean and thin. He took a regulated diet and often took help of ayurveda for sustenance. The clue given by Shri K.N. Rao that a debilitated or a combust planet leaves some flaw in the signification of the planet and that Moon-mercury or mercury-Moon periods can give mental aberrations causing addiction or diversion towards destructive tendencies, like overindulgence in sex etc. can be further expanded with reference to the personality traits of R.K. Dalmia. It is said that he was impulsive, impatient and at times behaved like a child. He used to be rash when emotionally charged. He had strong intuition. It is known that he read a mans character quickly. He selected his employees by just looking at them or by asking a few general questions. Mercury represents intellect. Intellect is that faculty of mind, which analyses and produces a logical decision. Mythology and astrology has it that mercury is the child of Moon and mercury does not like Moon though Moon considers it a friend Intellect, signified by mercury is a part of the mind, signified by the Moon. The equation is of parent-child, where the parent likes his child in all situations and the child resists dominance. Quick decisions give rapid growth and also rapid falls, Without discretion and reasoning, that is, by not using the intellect, the person makes, at times, rash and erroneous decisions that gives falls. Such quick, fast, intuitive and timely decisions, give rapid rises also . This applies in case of R.K. Dalmia. It is said that he purchased the Times of India group by giving a blank cheque to the British owner. Ketu in the fifth house is another indicator of strong intuition.

Family Details Grandparents and parents

His grandfather, Shri Amravati worked at Brarka, a small town, for his brother-in-law as Munim and Treasurer. He died at an early age of 42. His grandmother, Shrimati Narain Devi stayed with Ramkrishan. His father, Shri Hajarimal worked with many marwari establishments. He also tried his luck at business many times, but failed. He lived in a rented house in Calcutta and was employed with M/s. Brijraj Harsukhrai at a salary of Rs. 60/- per month. Ramkrishan describes his mother as a Tapasvani (recluse) who lived in Varanasi alone inspite of her sons being leading industrialists. She died at the age of 93 on 6th December, 1957.

Brothers and Sisters

His brother, Jaydayal was born on 11th December, 1904. In his autobiography Ramkrishan describes him as his right hand. He had two elder sisters, Basantibai and Manibai and one younger sister, Godavari. All three were married when Ramkrishans father

was alive. In birth chart, the first, third, fourth and fifth lords are placed in the tenth house which indicates participation of siblings and children in Karamshetra (profession) for building a career.

Marriages
As per the memorial volumes he had six marriages. He had a disturbed married life, earlier due to the death of his first wife Narvada, when he was 15 and later because of continuous sickness of his wife Durga Devi, who saw three of her sons die soon after their births. She suffered a heart attack in 1950, which made her physically disabled and she was required to use a wheel chair. Mars, the lord of third and eighth aspects the seventh house from the twelfth house. During mahadasha of Mars, ending on 30th December, 1942 besides the sickness of his wife Durga, he was infatuated by a woman, who, he believed was the reincarnation of his first wife. He proposed to her but she did not agree. This lasted for 5 years during the mahadasha of mars, seriously afflicting his mind and reputation. Ramkrishan had high regards and respect for his rich cultural and spiritual heritage, therefore all the marriages were orthodox and sacramental. This is indicated by the aspect of seventh lord Jupiter on the seventh house. From 1942 to 1947 at the age of 50-55, he had four marriages. All the four marriages and the children from them were during the mahadasha of Rahu. Rahu gives unorthodoxy and makes a person a non-conformist. It also denotes foreigners. His later wives were not from his community. Rahu acts like a catalyst and is known for expediting marriage. And children. It is placed with natural putrakarka, Jupiter in the eleventh house, aspecting the fifth house. Both Jupiter-Rahu are in the fifth from Chandra lagna. Ramkrishan had provided each wife with a separate bungalow, car and servants. He not only looked after his wives well but also provided, liberally for families of his wives, most of whom came from humble backgrounds. The stigma of polygamy followed him. For spiritually advanced and conscientious Ramkrishan, this label was a constant reminder of a bitter reality that remained with him, no matter how hard he tried to justify. He believed that he did not do any wrong as polygamy was permissible in Hindu religion and culture. Gandhiji and other national leaders, with whom Ramkrishan had established a relationship, did not approve of his multiple marriages. His mother was annoyed with him and so were his family members. He mentions that his fathers views were also against polygamy. More than one marriage was always looked down upon with contempt. In 1956 more than one marriage was disallowed under the law but Ramkrishan had married six times before 1947. Later he regretted his decisions to marry again and again and mentions that it was destiny and perhaps this was fated for him for liquidation of his karma through miseries caused by polygamy and accepted the sufferings as a process of self-purification. His family

members, apparently, also became victims of the stigma. Dalmia is gone but the stigma still lives.

Children
He had six Sons and eleven daughters. Rama -1916, Ila 1-10-44, Dhruvnidhi 17-9-45, Sheela 7-12-45, Alka 1-5-47, Vasudha 10-6-47 and others. He was quite attached to his daughter Rama as she had developed spiritually quite early in life and had acquired proficiency in recitation of religious hymns and could speak well on such subjects. She was married to Mr. Shanti Prasad Jain in 1932 who joined Ramkrishan in his business. There is a gap of 29 years between the first child, Rama and the second child Ila. He was fond of his other children and grandchildren as well. The suffix nidhi after the names of all his sons had more than ornamental value (niddhi means treasure). He believed all his children were reincarnation of some great saints and refers to their qualities in his autobiography.

Maternal uncle
His maternal uncle, Shri Motilal Jhunjhunwala was known as the silver king of Bombay. Both Shri Jhunjhunwala and his son Shri Joothamalji treated Ramkrishan well.

Major events
His brother Jaydayal was born on 11th December, 1904 in the morning. Vimshottari dasha was Venus-Moon-Rahu and the Char dasha was Taurus-Capricorn. Rahu is in fifth from Moon in the birth chart, indicating child to the mother and is in the third house of the drekkana chart. In Jaimini, the third house from Capricorn is aspected by BK. He writes in his autobiography that some months after the birth of his brother he was married to Narvada. Moon in the seventh indicates travel and marriage. Moon is also in the Navamsha lagna. He perhaps, got married in Taurus-Sagittarius. Sagittarius is the seventh house having the DK, Moon. Narvada fell ill and died of chest infection at the age of 16. She was 10 months older than Ramkrishan. It was perhaps, Taurus-Leo, DK is eighth from Taurus. In Vimshottari it was Venus-Rahu, Rahu is in the second from Venus, the natural karaka for spouse. His father died on 15-9-1913 of Hernia. The Vimshottari dasha was Venus-Saturnmercury. The ninth lord Saturn aspects the ninth house and the sun. Mercury is the seventh lord from sun and is with sun and mutually aspect the ninth lord Saturn. He died on an eclipse day. The eclipse occurred on the junction of the ninth house and therefore proved fatal. In Char dasha, it was Pisces-Aries-Virgo. Pisces has sun and is aspected by BK, Saturn. Aries is eighth from BK and Virgo has BK.

After the death of his father he worked sometime with his maternal uncle in the bullion market. At this stage, he was a hapless, uneducated boy with responsibility of a large family. He could barely feed his family with the paltry amount he received from his maternal uncle, Shri Motilal Jhunjhunwala. To augment his income, he started side business in Gold and Silver but lost all that he possessed. He also invited the wrath of his maternal uncle. He was thrown out of the job and all connections with his maternal uncle were severed. This happened when the dasha was of Venus-Saturn. The retrograde Saturn in the fourth afflicts his sukhsthan and also aspects sun in the tenth house indicating persecution by men in authority. Perhaps it was Venus-Saturn-Jupiter or Venus-Saturn-Rahu when his daughter Rama Jain was conceived by his wife. Both Rahu and Jupiter represents children as they are in the fifth house from Moon and aspect the fifth house from lagna. Jupiter is the natural putrakaraka and Rahu, the catalyst. The information available is that she was married in 1932 when she was 16. She was to be born when there was a windfall for Ramkrishan in the silver deal after the first world war started.

The Windfall
Onset of Venus-mercury dasha on December 30, 1915 saw him earn Rs.1,56,000/, a huge amount by sheer luck and due to insight into the bullion market. Ramkrishan writes in his autobiography that an astrologer Shri Boila of Calcutta had written on his horoscope which he had taken for consultation that in the antardasha of Mercury he would get a windfall. Ramkrishan convinced a partner to invest Rs. 7,500/- in silver as he anticipated rise in silver prices. He sent a telegram to London for booking silver but a day or two later, the partner backed out. Ramkrishan was not left with even Rs.10/- to send the telegram for cancelling the deal. The prices shot up and Ramkrishans Bank account was credited with an astronomical sum of Rs.1,56,000/-. There was a lot of talk of this acquisition of Ramkrishan, who with this back-up, plunged more aggressively into the area of speculation. VenusMercury form a distinct neechabhanga rajyoga. Debilitated Mercury in kendra. The planet which exalts in the sign of debilitation, Venus, is in a kendra with Mercury. The neechbhanga rajyoga is from Moon also. The prediction of Boila was perhaps based on this rajyoga. In Chara dasha it was Pisces-Gemini-Gemini from 20-12-1915 to 7-1-1916. All possible Rajyogas of Jaimini occur in Pisces. Pisces aspects Gemini, mutually and is in tenth from Gemini. His daughter must have been born in Pisces-Cancer which was from January 11 to December 7, 1916. From cancer, PK is in the 11th house. This indicates gain of child. He called back his family members from Chirawa. In 1919 he opened a shop for selling Khadi clothes, which was managed by his brother. He indulged in forward trading of stocks and dealt mainly in cotton, jute and silver. He dealt in heavy transactions of over Rs. 20 lacs.

A warrant was also issued against him during this period seeking his arrest and he could save himself only by arranging bail. This happened in the sub-period of Ketu which is in the fifth house of speculation and in the eighth house from the mahadasha lord Venus. In Char it was Pisces-Libra. Libra is eighth from Pisces and also from AK, Amk and MK. Ramkrishan was in financial crisis at the age of 26. The motor garage and the house had to be sold when Ramkrishan suffered a heavy loss in speculation. He had many ups and downs and whenever he lost everything he used to go to his mother and cry but then again indulged in gambling. He writes that he knows of no one who had ups and downs like him. In 1930, Ramkrishan came to Danapur with his brother and started trading in grains. In 1933, Ramkrishan put his own sugar mill at Behta in Bihar. His daughter Rama was married to Shanti Prasad Jain. He did not have cash available for marriage. His maternal uncle offered money for marriage and a house in Kanpur. Old family jewellery was collected and sold for getting Rama married. PK is in fifth from Capricorn indicating marriage. The aspect of PK is on Capricorn. The fifth lord Venus is in the tenth with mercury. The fifth lord from Moon, mars aspects Moon. Marriage took place perhaps in Moon-mercury-Venus in Vimshottari. Ramkrishan had lost heavily in forward trading. His financial condition was precarious. All creditors had lined up at Danapur. To repay, Ramkrishan borrowed from all members of his family and friends. The family was panicky. Ramkrishan had lost his equilibrium and went around asking everyone to pray for him. At this stage the idea of contesting elections struck him which he later regretted. In madness, against the advice of family members, friends, Dr. Rajendra Prasad and Sardar Patel, he fought elections and lost. Moon-mercury can lead to such decisions. Capricorn is twelfth from Aquarius. From Moon, the mercury is in the fourth and from lagna it is the fourth lord in the tenth indicating contest in election. The election was a kind of gamble in which he lost. His family members and friends made him take a vow that he would stop speculation. Soon, the attention of everyone was drawn to an investment made by Ramkrishan in silver in London Metal exchange. Ketu being in eleventh from Moon in the Moon dasha should not give bad results, rather give gains. Moon is the lord of the second house of wealth and has the aspect of the seventh and tenth lord Jupiter from the eleventh. Aquarius-Aquarius does not promise gains till April 7, 1934 but Capricorn-Sagittarius does. Ramkrishan monitored movement and saw a silver lining. He concentrated on the silver deal and got a gain of Rs. 40 lacs. This formed the capital for industrialization which was to follow. He attributed this gain to sheer luck and Gods grace. He writes that this was the result of, prayers by his friends, especially, Hanuman Poddar and other members of Ramkrishans family. The dasha of the second lord Moon with the fifth lord Venus which is exalted in the

tenth promises a gain. Besides this exalted Venus is instrumental in forming neecha bhanga rajyoga with mercury which fetched the earlier windfall. From Moon, Venus is the eleventh lord exalted in the fourth with ninth and tenth lord aspecting the tenth from Moon. Capricorn is in the eleventh from Amk and Sagittarius is involved in all rajyogas of Jaimini. This windfall was probably between April 7, 1934 and August 7, 1934. Ramkrishans health had failed as he was under immense stress and tension. The entire family and close relatives went to Mussoorie and hired a house. In all, 70 persons were there. GK, Jupiter in the fourth from Capricorn and sixth from Scorpio is indicative of this. Shri Nirmal Kumar Jain lost in speculation and had to sell his shares to the agency owned by Ramkrishan. A few months after, in 1936 Ramkrishan came to Calcutta. He was chosen Chairman/Head of Aggarwal community. About 50, 000 persons came to receive him at the Howrah station. He addressed a big gathering. He could not himself believe that he was the same person who cried when he lost in speculation a few years back. The idea of getting into the cement industry took shape during this period. Mars in the twelfth house of the birth chart is aspected by retrograde Saturn. Mars aspects the seventh house and Moon placed in the seventh house, indicating adverse results of the seventh house in its period. Mars, the eleventh lord in the twelfth indicates expenditure or investment of all gains. Mars the sixth lord in the twelfth also indicates insurance and losses and also loans. Ramkrishan acquired Bharat Insurance Company and Bharat Bank during this period. Mars in the twelfth and sixth from Moon indicates acquisition of machinery from abroad. Capricorn is in the eleventh from Amk indicates gains and Gemini is participant in many rajyogas of the horoscope. Mars aspects seventh house from twelfth where Moon is placed disturbs mental peace related to the seventh house. For 5 years during this period Ramkrishan was infatuated by a woman whom he believed to be reincarnation of Narvada, his first wife. Jaydayal was sent abroad to purchase cement plants from Germany and Denmark in Vimshottari dasha of Mars-Rahu. Mars in twelfth aspected by Saturn indicates foreign machinery. Mars in the twelfth aspected by Saturn indicates foreign machinery. Mars aspecting Moon indicates machine, grinding, limestone. Rahu in the twelfth from Mars indicates foreign country and foreigners. Ramkrishan purchased the shares of Bharat Insurance Company. The acquisition started during this period. Jupiter is in the twelfth from Mars and is in the eleventh house from lagna indicates large scale investments and takeovers. He received guard of honour at Lahore in 1938. He received recognition and established contacts with VIPs. In Sagittarius-Scorpio commencing from April 7, 1938, he was infatuated by a girl whom he took for reincarnation of his first wife, Narvada. Mars-Venus was a period of fierce

competition with his arch rival, the ACC. Ramkrishan established contacts with leading national leaders. The idea of forming the World Government was conceived. He was expanding his industrial empire. Venus is in the eleventh from Mars and from lagna forming a yoga in the tenth. But the infatuation continued. Ramkrishan established contacts with royal dignitaries as Sun is in the eleventh from Mars. Sun represents VIPs and royalty. Around this period he came in contact with Sant Takht Singhji. Ramkrishan writes that he married Pritam as she was daughter of a great Sant. She did not stay for long with the family. He admits that he wronged his wife Durga, who lost her balance of mind. In Mars-Moon commencing from May 31, 1942 Ramkrishan was under tension and mental turmoil with the developments concerning his marriage and family life, with Durga Devi taken ill and Pritam, his newly acquired wife, following her own way. The mental turmoil connected with marriage is well indicated by aspect of Mars on Moon. In Char dasha it was Scorpio-Virgo. From Scorpio the second house has Moon, the DK. Virgo is the eleventh house aspected by DK. Rahu-Rahu dasha from 30-12-42 to 11-9-45 was the turning point. All that he strived for all his life came to him in abundance, suddenly. Rahu conjoined with Jupiter, the seventh lord in eleventh house indicating gains in respect of wives, wealth and children. Jupiter is placed in the fifth house from Moon with Rahu indicating children. The fifth from lagna is aspected by Jupiter-Rahu. Jupiter is the putrakaraka with the catalyst Rahu. Ramkrishan acquired four wives and 16 children in the dasha of Rahu as against one child in 50 years, earlier. Rahu denotes foreigners and unorthodoxy. Rahu is deceptive and drags a person towards material comforts. It is in a kaam house conjunct with lord of the kaam house which is afflicted by Kendradhipati dosha resulting in loss of all goodness. He married Saraswati, who was a sanskrit scholar. Her first child Ila was born on 1-10-44 in Rahu-RahuVenus. Later he married Asha Devi and had a son Dhruvnidhi on 17-9-45 in Rahu-Jupiter. During this period he was blessed with four daughters also. He married Dinesh Nandini during this period. This was also a period of rapid progress with setting up of one industry after the other. The climb up the ladder drew attention of everyone and he came in limelight with Cement, Paper, Banking, Insurance, Newspaper, etc. industries at his command. He established a foothold on the Indian economic scene. He was recognized as the leading industrialist of the country. He traded in disposable goods and made huge profits. He generously donated to the refugees of partition. Retrograde Saturn in the fourth house from lagna, tenth from Moon and the sixth from Rahu, the effects had to be bad during the Rahu-Saturn period. In Char dasha, it was the dasha of eighth AK, AMK and MK, Libra. There was division in the business nurtured by

Ramkrishan Dalmia. The reasons have not been mentioned but the conclusions are easy to draw. Ramkrishan was quite disturbed. His opponents and critics in Government and rivals in industry became active. During this period he formally acquired the Times of India and some other industries. He vehemently criticised the Government policies which was not taken in the right spirit by the men in power. He took up the cause of jute industry against the Government. Mercury is placed in the twelfth house from Rahu, therefore it will not give the results given by it in Venus, sun, Moon and mars mahadasas from where it was either conjunct in the fourth or in the eleventh house. Ramakrishan faced a lot of opposition from the Government. He continued his relationship with important people in all walks of life and was quite vocal about his views. In Char it was the mahadasha of Virgo. AK, AMK and MK aspect Virgo. Virgo has Saturn placed there, ninth from Virgo has mars and the tenth lord from it is debilitated. Ramkrishan speculated and lost huge money. In Virgo-Aquarius, the government agencies were after him to prosecute him. Virgo has Saturn and Aquarius is the sixth from Virgo. Venus is also in the twelfth house from mahadasa lord Rahu. During this period persecution by the government agencies was going on. He was fighting a legal battle. His financial condition was not at all good. He had to sell the Times of India to his son-in-law. In Rahusun the bad patch continued for Ramkrishan. He spent most of his time in spiritual pursuits and with his family members. Sun is in the twelfth from Rahu and so is Leo from Virgo. Virgo dasha in Char was never helpful to Ramkrishan Dalmia. His wife Durga Devi died in June, 1958 with the onset of Moon sub-period. Moon is the DK in the seventh in the birth chart. In Navamsha it is in the lagna. It is afflicted by the eighth aspect of Mars from twelfth. Moon has the lowest Shadbal strength among the seven planets. It was Virgo-Leo in Chara. Leo has Darapada and it is twelfth from Virgo which has Saturn. Rahu-mars period that followed was a period of court cases, intrigue and the like. Mars is in the twelfth from lagna, sixth from Moon and second from mahadasa lord Rahu. Leo is sixth from AK, AMK and MK. Jupiter is the seventh and tenth lord from lagna placed in eleventh. All planets, except Moon are in 2-12 or 6-8 positions from it. This Jupiter is afflicted by kendradhipati dosha both from lagna and the Moon. It aspects the third, fifth and seventh house from lagna. During this period the focus was wives and children and religious and spiritual activities which are areas covered by Jupiter out of its natural qualities and due to lordship of the seventh house. He lost the case of Bharat Insurance Company and was sentenced to two years imprisonment from June, 1962. For 6 months he stayed in Tihar Jail. It was Leo-Aries and Leo-Taurus in Char. From Leo AK, Amk and MK are in the eighth house and from Aries, they are in the twelfth. From the prison he was shifted to Irwin Hospital in New Delhi and confined there due to ill health. A man, who was quite conscious of his image had to suffer such humiliation. The spirituality surfaced in him in the Jupiter dasha that followed. People who came across Ramkrishan Dalmia during that period describe

him as a soft spoken man, donning a Khadi cap, dhoti and kurta, who carried with him his religious and philosophical books for free distribution to the bureaucrats and the politicians. He discussed religion more and business less. He was putting his house in order after the shattering jolts. He became a man with fresh resolutions and new priorities in life. In Jupiter-Ketu he devoted more time to religious and spiritual pursuits and spent time with his family. The enthusiasm, charishma and the drive to achieve was not there. Later, he started to lead a retired life with his large participated in religious and spiritual activities. He died on 26.9.1978 after a prolonged illness. His illness was in Saturn-Saturn. Saturn periods, throughout his life caused miseries. It was Gemini-Leo in Char. Gemini has the lagna and Leo is in 6-8 position from AK, Amk and MK.