desertfox (Mechanical) 3 Mar 10 12:25

Hi sunny81
This site might hel:!
htt:""###$coerinfo$co$u%"&us&ars"u&22!coer!for!&us&ars"sec'$htm()lectromagnetic
*tresses
desertfox
+ghrist ()lectrical) 3 Mar 10 12:3'
Quote:
,or 3!hase symmetrical fault- . #ould thin% the a/erage force on outer conductors feeding the
fault #ould &e attracti/e (&ecause 120 degrees!aart currents are in oosite direction for 2"3 of
the cycle)- right0
1hen the currents are in the oosite direction- the forces are reulsi/e$
electricete ()lectrical) 3 Mar 10 12:23
4es- you5re right 6 . had that &ac%#ards for a moment$
7o# let5s circle &ac% and re/isit the hase!to!hase fault$ .n that case currents are flo#ing
oosite direction as #ell- so shouldn5t they &e reulsi/e0

8888888888888888888888888888888888888
)ng!tis forums: The &est lace on the #e& for engineering discussions$
electricete ()lectrical) 3 Mar 10 12:51
7e/er mind ! that5s exactly #hat you said$
8888888888888888888888888888888888888
)ng!tis forums: The &est lace on the #e& for engineering discussions$
sunny81 ()lectrical) 3 Mar 10 13:33
Than%s e/eryone- great information$
7o#- #ould it &e safe to assume for my ro"mechanica analysis for a symmetrical 3hase fault-
that the &race #ould &e seeing a force of say 1000l&s on 9 and 1000l&s on : hase going in the
oosite directions- cause ; hase forces #ould a/erage out to <ero$

+ghrist ()lectrical) 3 Mar 10 15:03
Quote:
7o#- #ould it &e safe to assume for my ro"mechanica analysis for a symmetrical 3hase fault-
that the &race #ould &e seeing a force of say 1000l&s on 9 and 1000l&s on : hase going in the
oosite directions- cause ; hase forces #ould a/erage out to <ero$
.))) *td '05- IEEE Guide for Design of Substation Rigid-Bus Structures considers ea% force
during an asymmetrical fault- not a/erage during a symmetrical fault$ The force on the middle
hase during a 3= fault is 0$8'' times the force on the &uses during a =!= fault of the same
magnitude$ The force on the outside hases is 0$808 times the =!= fault force$

desertfox (Mechanical) 3 Mar 10 1':18
Hi sunny81
.f you clic% on the lin% . ga/e you in my earlier ost- then clic% on electromagnetic stresses it
#ill gi/e you formula5s for calculating the forces on the &us&ars for your situation$
desertfox
#aross ()lectrical) 3 Mar 10 21:22
9nytime during the cycle that the current is <ero in a &us- the force on that &us #ill &e <ero$
.n ractice the force on the outer &us &ars #ill &e out#ard and the center &us #ill tend to s#ing
&ac% and forth &et#een them$
;ill
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
>1hy not the &est0>
?immy :arter
+ac%'238 ()lectrical) 20 Mar 10 12:33
1ell- this is a great @uestion and let5s start #ith the fundamentals$ The @uestion is #here is the
greatest force deends on the &us configuration$ *urely this ma%es sense$
,or examle a &us that is confiruged is a hori<ontal lane li%e 9;: does not create the same
force as a &us that has a configuration of an e@ualitratel lane( an e@ual lateral traiangle)$ The
e@ual!lateral triangle has e@ual force on each conductor (that is the design arameter) #her a
9;: arrangement has the maximum force onthe middle conductor$
*o #hat is the force on conductors in the same lane0
Here are the considerations:
1$4ou need to determine the section modulus of the conductors$ ,or rectangular conductors the
section modulus is *8 &A dB2"' #here d is the #idth and & is the height$(Ceference Mechanic of
Materials -,airman D :utshall- ?ohn 1iley D *ons- age 113$
2$.s the &us 9luminum or :oer$ The &us may ha/e the same section modulus &ut as you
%no#- aluminum may ha/e a lo#er yield strength than :oer and this ma%es it a #ea%er
system$
3$ ,or a &uses in the same lane- the maximum force is on the hase ; conductor and this force
occurs 25 degrees after the short circuit occurs in hase ; as the current asses through a
current <ero /alue$ 9ll othe short circut occurrences roduce less force$
2$ The ,orce is gi/en &y:
,(l&s".nB28 3E55A .B2A10B'"(10BEAF) #here F distance &et#een the center to center
&us &uses)$
'$Gnce you %no# the section modulus- the short circuit in symmetrical ams- the distance
&et#een &uses - you can easily determine the re@uired distance &et#een &racing re@uirements$
G&/iously this is not a calculation for roo%ies$
?ac%
#aross ()lectrical) 20 Mar 10 1':21
Quote:
the maximum force is on the hase ; conductor and this force occurs 25 degrees after the short
circuit occurs in hase ; as the current asses through a current <ero /alue$ 9ll othe short
circut occurrences roduce less force$
Maximum force at <ero current0
Fid . read this roerly0
. thought that the reelling force #as greatest &et#een ad+acent conductors #hen the currents
#ere e@ual$ That is #hen the sum of the s@uares of the currents #ill &e greatest$
;ill
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
>1hy not the &est0>
?immy :arter
desertfox (Mechanical) 20 Mar 10 1':23
Hi #aross
7o you read +ac%s ost correctly$
G&/iously my lin% to short circuit forces on &us&ars must &e in/isi&le other than to me$
desertfox
+ac%'238 ()lectrical) 20 Mar 10 1E:18
Mr$ ;ill-

. should ha/e &een more secific a&out #hen the maximum force occurs!!!and than% you for
noting . #as not clear on that secific oint$ 9ctually there #ere se/eral oints #hich needed
additional exlation$
:oncerning #hen the maximum force occurs$
The maximum force occurs #hen the short circuit occurs 25 degrees after the <ero current in
Hhase ;$ The maximum force #ill then occurs 1"2 cycle after the instant of the short circuit$
9ny other com&ination of circumstances #ill roduce a smaller /alue$
*tanley Iillian- he #as a Fe/elomet and Cesearch )ngineer for Felta *tar )lectric :omany
(:hicago)- descri&es this in greater detail in >,orces Fue to *hort :ircuit :urrents> )lectrical
1orld- Fecem&er 12- 1322$
9lso concerning the ;racing Ce@uirements
Gften- or sometimes- the &us &ars are not in the same lane$ That is they are in a staggered
lane or they contain &ends$ 7ot an easy solution to this$ Here is #hat is haening$ 1hen the
forces are not in the same lane- the forces causes the &uses to #ant to >t#ist> or rotate so the
&us &ars #ill need to resist this motion$ . sol/e this &y calculating the &racing distance for &uses
in the same lane and adding a &race in the middle of the calculation$ ,or examle- Cather than
12 > . #ould add one at ' inches$
9nother item concerning &racing$
To really calculate the &racing distances- you need to %no# the exact yield strength (H*.) of the
&us &ar material$ Most calculation are for coer$ 9luminum alloy are no# almost e@ual to the
yield of :oer$ The calculations are made for coer and then ad+usted for 9J$ ,or examle
if the yield strength of aluminum is '000 H*. and coer is 15-000 H*.- then the calculations
are ad+usted to K'000"15000LB0$5 80$'33 of the distance for coer material$ *o you calculate
10 inch &racing for coer and for 9l the &racing re@uirement is 10A$'33 8 '$33 inches$ .t all
deends on the yield strength for the material used in your calculations$
. Hoe this hels and many than%s to ;ill for as%ing that @uestion$ . #as in a hurry and should
ha/e ta%en the time to fully exlain$ *orryM
9lso- there aears to &e significant interest in this su&+ect as the insurance comanies for
industrials as% for short circuit and flash ha<ard calculations$ . ha/e heled se/eral sol/e these
ro&lems and a/oid a relacement or re&uild$
The &asic engineering for this toic can &e found in the #or% &y :$H$ Nan 9sen of Hydro
)lectro Ho#er :omission of Gntario !1322 and also H$; F#ight$
?ac%

*cottyOI ()lectrical) 20 Mar 10 1E:22
desertfox-
. can see it$
The content of the #e& age #as once u&lished as a hardco/er &oo% &y the :F9 called
5:oer for ;us&ars5- and some of the diagrams ha/e &een scanned in #hich exlains the
indifferent @uality of the images$ The &oo% is #ell #orth trac%ing do#n if only for the images
of contemorary e@uiment$ My ersonal fa/ourite is the 20-0009 250N F: circuit &rea%er- as
in 20-0009 thermal rating- not &rea%ing caacity$ .t is the si<e of a small truc%$

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

.f #e learn from our mista%es .5m getting a great educationM

desertfox (Mechanical) 20 Mar 10 1E:53
Hi *cottyOI
4es . ha/e a coy of that /ery &oo% and . thought it #as still a/aila&le- it is #ell #orth ha/ing a
coy . agree$
Here5s a @uote on the max force5s due to a single hase and three hase fault:!
Maximum stresses
1hen a &us&ar system is running normally the interhase forces are normally /ery small #ith
the static #eight of the &us&ars &eing the dominant comonent$ Onder short!circuit conditions
this is /ery often not the case as the current rises to a ea% of some thirty times its normal /alue-
falling after a fe# cycles to ten times its initial /alue$ These high transitory currents create large
mechanical forces not only in the &us&ars themsel/es &ut also in their suorting system$ This
means that the suort insulators and their associated steel#or% must &e designed to #ithstand
these high loads as #ell as their normal structural re@uirements such as #ind- ice- seismic and
static loads$
The ea% or fully asymmetrical short circuit current is deendent on the o#er factor (cos f) of
the &us&ar system and its associated connected electrical lant$ The /alue is o&tained &y
multilying the r$m$s$ symmetrical current &y the aroriate factor gi/en in ;alanced three!
hase short!circuit stresses$
.f the o#er factor of the system is not %no#n then a factor of 2$55 #ill normally &e close to the
actual system /alue esecially #here generation is concerned$ 7ote that the theoretical
maximum for this factor is 2P2 or 2$828 #here cos f 8 0$ These ea% /alues reduce
exonentially and after aroximately 10 cycles the factor falls to 1$0- i$e$- the symmetrical
r$m$s$ short circuit current$ The ea% forces therefore normally occur in the first t#o cycles
(0$02 s) as sho#n in ,igure 13$
.n the case of a comletely asymmetrical current #a/e- the forces #ill &e alied #ith a
fre@uency e@ual to that of the suly fre@uency and #ith a dou&le fre@uency as the #a/e
&ecomes symmetrical$ Therefore in the case of a 50 H< suly these forces ha/e fre@uencies of
50 or 100 H<$
The maximum stresses to #hich a &us structure is li%ely to &e su&+ected #ould occur during a
short!circuit on a single!hase &us&ar system in #hich the line short!circuit currents are
dislaced &y 180Q$
.n a three!hase system a short!circuit &et#een t#o hases is almost identical to the single!
hase case and although the hase currents are normally dislaced &y 120Q- under short!circuit
conditions the hase currents of the t#o hases are almost 180Q out of hase$ The effect of the
third hase can &e neglected$
.n a &alanced three!hase short!circuit- the resultant forces on any one of the three hases is less
than in the single!hase case and is deendent on the relati/e hysical ositions of the three
hases$
.n the case of a single!hase short!circuit- the forces roduced are unidirectional and are
therefore more se/ere than those due to a three!hase short!circuit- #hich alternate in direction$
The short!circuit forces ha/e to &e a&sor&ed first &y the conductor$ The conductor therefore
must ha/e an ade@uate roof strength to carry these forces #ithout ermanent distortion$
:oer satisfies this re@uirement as it has high strength comared #ith other conductor
materials (Ta&le 2)$ ;ecause of the high strength of coer- the insulators can &e more #idely
saced than is ossi&le #ith lo#er!
Thienma ()lectrical) 12 May 03 3:23
Hi 9ll-
.5m a &it u<<ling &y the Ramma ,actor of 1- $8''- and $808 listed on Ta&le 2 of the .)))
standard as ad+ustment factors for the &us force deend on the tye of fault and conductor
location$ .5m see%ing ad/ice on:
1) .f you ha/e any reference or document sho#ing ho# these factors #ere deri/ed$
2) :an these factors &e used to calculate the actual &us &ar fault current #ithstand caa&ility
(i$e$ Multily the Ramma factor to the asymmetrical current)000
.5m /ery much confused &y this and any ad/ice is greatly areciated$ Than% you for your time$
desertfox (Mechanical) 12 May 03 3:3E
Hi Thiena
This site might hel:!
htt:""###$coerinfo$co$u%"&us&ars"u&22!coer!for!&us&ars"sec'$htm()lectromagnetic
S20*tresses
desertfox
Thienma ()lectrical) 12 May 03 10:30
Than%s desertfox-
. ha/e seen that document in the ast- &ut not @uite sure ho# did they come u #ith the $8'' or $
808 factors$ 9lso- ho# can these factors &e alied to calculate- electrically- the maximum
fault current that the &us should &e a&le to #ithstand$ .f . #ere to o&tain the asymmetrical
current of the &us using the T"C ratio at 1"2 cycle ea% follo#ing fault- can . multily this
asymmetrical current #ith the decrement factor of $8'' to get the maximum fault current that
the &us must #ithstand00 . #as tal%ing #ith someone #ho roosed such- &ut . don5t %no#
ho# /alid it is and &een loo%ing for some sort of dis!roof or confirmation$
+ghrist ()lectrical) 12 May 03 10:3E
The 1- 0$8''- and 0$808 factors are deri/ed from calculating the ea% forces using
differentiation of the net sinusoidal forces on the &us&ars for the different faults$ . don5t ha/e
any references for the deri/ation- &ut . ha/e done the calculations myself to confirm that the
factors are correct$

desertfox (Mechanical) 12 May 03 10:28
hi Thienma
4es it doesn5t say #ere the factors came from . assumed it #as lin%ed to the asymmetry of the
fault current$
7ot sure #hy you #ant the &us&ar fault current #ithstand- . assume that the #ithstand current
#ould &e determined &y the temerature rise or ho# @uic% the heat can &e dissaated from the
&us&ar and also the stresses set u &et#een ad+acent &us&ars during a fault$
,rom my exerience the fault ratings for &us&ars is either one or three seconds if during that
time the temerature doesn5t get to high and the mechanical stresses are exceta&le ie:! they are
not ermanently deflected then the system should &e o%ay$
.f you go to the index on the lin% . ro/ided in the re/ious ost there are sections on the
current ratings of &us&ars$
htt:""###$coerinfo$co$u%"&us&ars"u&22!coer!for!&us&ars"sec3$htm
desertfox
Thienma ()lectrical) 12 May 03 11:03
Fesertfox-
The reason #hy i #as loo%ing for the short!circuit #ithstand caa&ility is that #e ha/e one of
the &uses in our system #hich comes retty close to the designed electrical current rating- and .
#as not certain if the same rating is ade@uate gi/en the resent configuration$ Through tal%ing
#ith a fello# engineer- he suggested that the $8'' factor can &e used to derate the total fault
current imacting the &us- and i5m do a little soul searching to see if indeed his suggestion is
/alid and if the same aroach #as &eing used else#here$
desertfox (Mechanical) 12 May 03 11:23
Hi Thienma
.n that case . #ould use the formula for:! *hort :ircuit Heating of ;ars in the second lin% .
osted earlier$
The time t calculated from this must &e greater than the short circuit time rating for the system$
desertfox
+ghrist ()lectrical) 12 May 03 1E:31
The 0$8'' is alica&le only for the short circuit force calculation- not for the thermal rating$ .t
has to do #ith the fact that the currents in ad+acent &uses during a 3= fault are not 180Q out of
hase li%e they are during a =!= fault$

atric%E3'1 ()lectrical) 15 May 03 10:01
The reason #hy i #as loo%ing for the short!circuit #ithstand caa&ility is that #e ha/e one of
the &uses in our system #hich comes retty close to the designed electrical current rating- and .
#as not certain if the same rating is ade@uate gi/en the resent configuration$
.in order to &e assured that the &us in @uestion is in comlience #ith '05 you need to loo% at the
continous current rating- the short c%t rating- chec% that the &us /oltage gradient and thermal
exansion are o%$
4ou #ill need to calculate the total /ectorial force on the &us- then you can chec% the max san
&ased on &us strength- &us deflection- and insulator strength$ 4ou #ill also ha/e to %no# #hat
loading district you are in light- medium- hea/y$ 4ou also need to %no# #hat tye of /i&ration
damers are installed$
you can chec% the fault current &y
.8:A10B'A9AKlogU(Tf!20VI"R)"(Ti!20VI"R)W"tLB$5