THE HON MARK DREYFUS QC MP

SHADOW ATTORNEY-GENERAL
SHADOW MINISTER FOR THE ARTS
MEMBER FOR ISAACS
E&OE TRANSCRIPT
TELEVISION INTERVIEW
SKY NEWS PM AGENDA
WEDNESDAY, 16 JULY 21!
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DAVID SPEERS# Joining me now is the Shadow Attorney-General Mark
Dreyfus. Thanks for your time.
Can I start with that issue, the numer of Australians who ha!e already
returned from the attle"eld in Syria. #ow $on$erning is that%
MARK DREYFUS, SHADOW ATTORNEY-GENERAL# &e'!e said all along
that it's $on$erning that any Australians are going to "ght, to (arti$i(ate
with terror grou(s, in the $on)i$t in Syria. And more re$ently we'!e
learned, e$ause the order etween Syria and Ira* is lurring, that they
are in Ira* as well.
&e ha!e said now for more than two years that we are $on$erned aout
this, and one of the $on$erns was always and remains that some of these
Australians are going to return further radi$alised and trained and $a(ale
of doing harm here in Australia.
SPEERS# My understanding is no arrests or $harges ha!e een laid in
relation to these (eo(le who ha!e returned ut they are eing monitored.
Does it alarm you that numer, or are you not so $on$erned aout that
sort of numer. It was delierately !ague ut Da!id Ir!ine did refer to tens
of Australians.
DREYFUS# The $on$erns remains, as it has een, and it is a $on$ern and
against the law for Australians to go and "ght with these terrorist grou(s
in Syria or in Ira*. And the $on$ern always was and still is that some of
them are going to $ome home.
SPEERS# +f $ourse at the moment the law will only $at$h those who are
"ghting with a foreign (ower against Australia.
DREYFUS# ,o, that's not right. The law also $at$hes those who, the
$riminal $ode (ro!isions (rohiit an Australian from (arti$i(ating with,
"ghting with, funding, assisting, one of these listed terrorist organisations.
SPEERS# +kay, ut is there ade*uate law at the moment to deal with
Australians who are $aught u( in this situation%
DREYFUS# &e ha!e got laws that $riminalise, oth the -oreign In$ursions
A$t and the Criminal Code, $riminalise (arti$i(ating with these terror
grou(s in Ira* and Syria.
SPEERS# Can I turn then to what is eing (ro(osed y the Go!ernment
now, in terms of the "rst tran$he they're $alling it, of anti-terrorist laws.
Are you on oard with e!erything they ha!e announ$ed%
DREYFUS# &hat we'!e seen is a ill introdu$ed to the Senate today y
the Attorney-General whi$h a$ts on re$ommendations of the
.arliamentary Intelligen$e Committee, i(artisan re$ommendations from
the middle of last year.
Those re$ommendations were (art of a re(ort that /aor $ommissioned in
go!ernment. And of $ourse, these are our (ro(osals whi$h are eing
$ommented on and were re$ommended y the $ommittee last year.
&e are told that they ha!e een gi!en e0e$t in this ill. It1s (art of the
re(ort and what is now to ha((en is there will e (arliamentary s$rutiny,
there will e s$rutiny most im(ortantly y the Australian $ommunity.
2e$ause it is !ery im(ortant, as (art of maintaining $on"den$e in our
intelligen$e agen$ies, in the need for these kinds of (owers, that the
go!ernment (ro(erly e3(lain why these (owers are needed and that there
e ade*uate o((ortunity for s$rutiny.
SPEERS# 2ut if they do re)e$t these $hanges, that $ame out of that
.arliamentary re(ort, you would (resumaly su((ort it%
DREYFUS# &hat we're waiting for is the rea$tion of the $ommunity. The
$omment that's now going to $ome as (art of this .arliamentary
Intelligen$e Committee (ro$ess and of $ourse the $omments of the
Ins(e$tor General of Intelligen$e and Se$urity.
And im(ortantly, there is now going to e, e$ause the go!ernment has
re!ersed its (ro(osal to aolish the Inde(endent ,ational Se$urity
/egislation Monitor and we wel$ome that. &e wel$ome the re!ersal.
&e said all along the Go!ernment should not e aolishing this im(ortant
o!ersight me$hanism and the Go!ernment has now agreed with that.
They're not going to do it and that's another $omment that is going to e
a!ailale, when the Go!ernment a((ointments the ,ational Se$urity
/egislation Monitor.
SPEERS# There was one announ$ement today that wasn1t (art of that
.arliamentary re(ort, and that is the tougher (enalties for leaking
intelligen$e information, a ten year 4ail term would e (art of these
$hange. &ould you su((ort that%
DREYFUS# I'!e looked at these (ro!isions of ill. In fa$t there's two (arts
to this, Da!id. The "rst is toughening the (enalties for gi!ing o!er, to
anyody for leaking, not (ro(erly $alled leaking, it is for releasing
intelligen$e information or gi!ing it to a foreign (ower, that is to ha!e a
higher (enalty.
2ut in addition, there is a new o0en$e eing $reated for, what I would
des$rie as the (reliminary a$tions, that might e downloading
information onto a dis$, it might e 4ust taking its of (a(er home,
(ro!ided the intention there is to release the information, then that sim(le
a$t of taking the material home or downloading it that is going to e an
o0en$e. And I think that's im(ortant e$ause-
SPEERS# So you would a$k oth of these $hanges%
DREYFUS# &e ha!e to look at the detail, we ha!e to study the e3a$t
terms in the ill ut in (rin$i(le, yes.
SPEERS# Is there an issue here of trying to alan$e whistlelowing and
the im(ortan$e of (rote$ting whistlelowers against those who are $learly
trying to do harm to Australia%
DREYFUS# I think it is always im(ortant, I was the $hair of the
.arliamentary Committee whi$h re$ommended a s$heme of whistle
lower (rote$tion for Australia and the minister who introdu$ed and took
through the .arliament a s$heme of whistlelower (rote$tion in the
Australian (uli$ ser!i$e.
SPEERS# #ow do you do that here%
DREYFUS# 5ou do ha!e to alan$e it, and the im(ortan$e is of knowing
that there will e, ut I sus(e$t there are mu$h rarer o$$asions than
anyone thinks, o$$asions on whi$h whistlelowing might e $alled for. -ar
too often (eo(le $laim to e a whistlelower when in fa$t they are not.
SPEERS# And that all $omes down to that intention, doesn't it% As you
used the word earlier, was the intention of downloading some material
onto a dis$, to low the whistle on something that has gone wrong or to
do harm.
DREYFUS# I think what we need to e !ery fo$used on is the im(ortan$e
of kee(ing intelligen$e information se$ret. That is the way in whi$h the
intelligen$e $ommunity needs to o(erate. And it needs to e !ery s*uarely
understood that it is an o0en$e to release intelligen$e information. I don1t
ha!e any (rolem with that.
SPEERS# ,ow, $an I ask you aout this metadata issue, the Go!ernment
has not yet mo!ed on this front and nor did you in go!ernment. 2ut we did
hear from the ASI+ $hief today that this is $ru$ial. The s(y agen$ies want
metadata 6(hone, email, internet re$ords - ke(t for two years. &here do
you sit on this one now%
DREYFUS# I announ$ed when the Committee1s re(ort was taled, the
Intelligen$e Committee's re(ort last year, it of $ourse de$lined to make
any re$ommendations aout mandatory data retention. It did say that if
any s$heme is to e $onsidered it needs to e !ery $arefully safeguarded,
there needs to e o!ersight.
I said when $ommenting on this last year that /aor would not e
introdu$ing a s$heme of mandatory data retention at that time and if a
s$heme is now (ro(osed we will of $ourse look at it in detail.
I understand the arguments that are eing (ut forward y the Australian
-ederal .oli$e, y ASI+, ut e*ually I understand the $on$erns in the
Australian $ommunity aout the (rote$tion of (ri!a$y. And it's not (ossile
4ust to state in the astra$t, as it were Da!id, whether or not one su((orts
mandatory data $olle$tion.
SPEERS# #as the situation $hanged sin$e last year though, do you think%
In terms of the threat eing fa$ed, the $hallenges the s(y agen$ies ha!e.
DREYFUS# I think we heard the Dire$tor-General of ASI+ saying today
that it is now (ossile for the agen$ies, for the Australian and -ederal
.oli$e, to get a$$ess to data that is (resently retained y
tele$ommuni$ations $om(anies and of $ourse that is the $ase.
The $on$ern is one a little it more going into the future, that more and
more tele$ommuni$ations $om(anies are going to sto( kee(ing data
e$ause they no longer need it for their $ommer$ial (ur(oses and that is
what this deate aout mandatory data retention is aout.
It's not so mu$h aout the situation now, it's looking at the risk in future
that data sim(ly won1t e there, unless when agen$ies go looking for it or
need it for the (ur(oses of in!estigations. It's whether we need to ha!e
some mandating of retention of data.
SPEERS# Shadow Attorney-General Mark Dreyfus, thank you.
DREYFUS# Good to e with you Da!id.
ENDS