Thinkers Discuss Press

Dallas, TX 75248
thinkersdiscuss@sbcglobal.net
Copyright 2014 by Ken Sewell
All Rights reserved. No part of this book may be reproduced in any form
without permission from the publisher, except in the case of brief quotations.
All Scripture quotations are from the King James Version of the Bible, 1601
and have been translated into modern English by the author.

Contents
Introduction .................................................................................................................................................. 4
Why are you a Christian? .............................................................................................................................. 5
Why are the Gods of the Old and New Testaments so Different? ............................................................. 14
How can I believe the Bible when all scientists think it is a bunch of foolishness? They dont believe in
your God. .................................................................................................................................................... 26
Jesus in Prophecy ........................................................................................................................................ 42
Is there any prophecy which says when the Jews should have been looking for Jesus, or did God just plan
to surprise them? ........................................................................................................................................ 54
Was Jesus Really Resurrected or Did His Disciples Just Trick Everyone? .................................................... 66
Seventh Conversation between B a Believer and U an Unbeliever ............................................................ 78
Where Do We Go From Here? .................................................................................................................... 78




Conversations between B a Believer and U an Unbeliever
Introduction
The Purpose of this class is to portray discussions of Bible topics with unbelievers and to try to
provide some ideas for such discussions. The unbelievers were talking about are not fervent
religious atheists, but rather those who do not believe the Bible because they havent been
exposed to it, dont have a family background in the Bible, or just havent cared enough to
examine it. We dont consider ourselves as the experts, so expect to add your own approach and
understanding.
In Acts, we see that Paul had a difficult time convincing the fervent Jews, but a lot of people who
were pagans believed what Paul said and followed him. We think there are people all around us
who have little or no background in the Bible, and that we have the opportunity to open Gods
word to them. The only way for us to get Gods message to these people is through discussions,
not arguments. In arguments, each side is more intent on winning than discovering the truth.
We will conduct polite, respectful conversations about these topics and try to give you an idea of
the believers approach and questions to be expected from the unbeliever. We hope this class will
be both fun and informative.
You will find (To the Audience) comments throughout the study. Thats the time for you to
pause and think about what you believe.

First Conversation between B a Believer and U an Unbeliever
Why are you a Christian?
U. I know you are a Christian by what you say and do, but tell me why are you a Christian?
B. (To the Audience) Think about it for a moment. How many reasons can you list? For me,
there are two, personal relationships and the Bible. When I look back at my life, I find these are
the most powerful movers in my life.
Is the Bible enough to convince a person that Jesus is the Son of God and that he or she should
obey him? Yes, but for me, it took people living according to Jesus teachings to get me
interested in reading the Bible. I suspect that is true for most. We need someone to demonstrate
the power of living the Golden Rule by treating others as you want them to treat you. You
probably know someone who has demonstrated that to you, either a parent, relative, or friend.
The ones who demonstrated that to me really caused me to want to become a Christian.
Even if we have known Jesus from our childhood, there often comes a time when we test the
basis for our faith. Thats when we must be convinced that the Bible is truly Gods word.
Many people who grow up in a land where Christianity is not as prevalent as it is in the U.S.A.
find that they like Christian values and Christians. At least those Christians who dont judge
them. But they wont become Christians because they dont believe the Bible is truly Gods
word. Without that foundation, they find it difficult to accept Jesus resurrection and his promise
of life forever with him as well as the consequences for unbelief.
U. (To B.) So why are you a Christian?
B. Im a Christian because of the overwhelming evidence that Jesus lived, died, and was
resurrected from the dead.
U. What overwhelming evidence are you talking about?
B. The Bible. To me, it is Gods word. How would a finite person go about finding out what an
infinite God is like?
U. We could look at nature. Maybe we could find out some things.
B. A lot of people did that. They came up with Sun gods, moon gods, volcano gods, thunder
gods, and a bunch of others.
U. Whats wrong with that?
B. All of those gods were finite, none covered everything. Thats why they had so many. And
none of those gods told the people how to please them.
U. Ive heard of them throwing people into the volcano to please Pele. I would never worship
any god like that.
B. Me either. If were talking about an infinite God, how can we know what he wants if he
doesnt tell us?
U. Why do you say an infinite God?
B. If Im going to worship a God, I want to worship one who is smarter and more powerful than
me.
U. Well, I guess I would too. But why bother?
B. Because it impacts my present life. It provides purpose, excitement, contentment, security,
and happiness to my life.
U. I thought Christianity was just pie in the sky for the next life, and only guilt and misery in
this one.
B. It is for this life and the next. Its our guidebook for getting ready for the next life but it
provides us great joy in this one. A joy that you wont find anywhere else.
U. There are a lot of things which bring me joy without worrying about God.
B. What is so wonderful about God is that he has told us just how he expects us to live in order
to please him, and that life is one in which we find joy.
U. And how has he told you? In the Bible?
B. Yes. We could never know what God is like and what he wants if he didnt tell us.
Fortunately, he gave us the Bible so we can know. The Bible contains overwhelming evidence
that it is from God so we can base our faith on what it tells us. Our faith is not groundless, it is
based on the rock of the Bible.
U. The Bible, thats just a book! An old book at that. Why should I take that as evidence?
B. But its not just a book. It is a book unlike any other. Do you know how old it is?
U. Couple thousand years.
B. The first book was written about 3500 years ago, the last book about 2000 years ago. So it
was written over a time period of about 1500 years. The Bible is also unique in that it consists of
history, commandments, poetry, warnings and promises. It doesnt make Gods people into
supernatural beings and their humanity is related in a realistic manner.
U. Arent all religious books written like that?
B. No. The Quran was written by one man over about 23 years. The Hindu book Vedas is
credited to one man, Brahma, although a few other writings are accepted. None of them have one
theme like the Bible, and none of them are written by men from a variety of backgrounds.
U. What do you mean? Werent they all clergy or scholars?
B. Very few of the over 40 men who wrote the Bible would have been called a scholar. They
were shepherds, commercial fishermen, carpenters, Israeli priests and scribes, former slaves, a
tax collector, a physician, as well as kings of powerful nations. Some graduated from the best
schools, and some probably never darkened the doorway of a formal educational institution.
Many of the writers never met any of the other writers and in fact lived in vastly different time
periods. Some wrote history, some wrote poetry, some wrote how to books, and some wrote
about events that they didnt live to see.
U. If they wrote over a 1500 year time period, this must just be a collection of stories. So whats
the big deal?
B. Thats the point. The Bible consists of 66 books divided into the Old and the New Testament.
They were written over this very long time period, yet it drops clues about a mystery 1500 years
before Jesus was born. This mystery is what Jesus is to be and is not completely revealed until
after Jesus died, was resurrected and ascended into heaven. The question is how did the early
writers know what the mystery was going to be when they didnt even understand it? Some have
counted over 300 prophecies about Jesus in the Old Testament, written long before he lived.
U. That sounds impossible and improbable to me. Ive heard the Bible described as a good book,
but still just a collection of myths. Are you going to tell me that these myths are connected into
one story?
B. First, let me clarify that I dont think the Bible is just a good book full of myths. I wouldnt
call a book good if it is written by liars, would you?
U. Well no, but why do you say it was written by liars?
B. Dont forget the word if. The writers werent liars, but they did claim in many places that
what they wrote is the word of God. If it is the word of God, then it must be true. If it is false, it
cant be the word of God and therefore is not a good book and is written by liars.
U. OK, I see your argument. But why should I think it is true, just because some of the writers
thought that?
B. Fair question. (To the Audience) Tell us why.
Audience. Possible Responses.
Consistent
Tells one story
Promises that someone is coming
Gives us many identifying characteristics of the one who is coming.
Eventually tells us who came, what he did and why.
No historic or scientific facts have been demonstrated to conflict with the Bible.
B. So thats a summary of why I think it is true. What do you think?
U. If its true, but Im not convinced just because you say it is. How could 40 men accomplish a
consistent story?
B. The writers tell us. Beginning with Moses who wrote the first five books of the Old Testament
and continuing to the man who wrote the last book of the New Testament, the authors
consistently claim that they are writing the words given by God. Look at what Moses said in
Deuteronomy 5:5
U. At that time I stood between the LORD and you to show you the word of the LORD, because
you were afraid of the fire and did not go up the mountain. So Moses told the people what God
said.
B. Right, now read Revelation 22:16
U. I, Jesus, have sent my angel to testify these things for the churches. So, if God spoke to these
people how did he do it? Does he still speak to people today?
B. First question first. Moses, the writer of the first five books tells us that God spoke to certain
people, but the indication is that he did not speak to everyone. How God spoke to the people
differs according to the time and circumstance. Sometimes he spoke directly and sometimes in
visions, and sometimes we dont know just how.
Each of the books has its own purpose, some are history, some are laws, some are poetic, and
some warn his people to stop worshipping idols and return to worshipping only him or else they
will be punished. God gave Moses rules and commands for the Hebrews to obey. These laws
were in effect throughout the Old Testament times. After the Hebrews had a nation and kings,
they often turned away from worshipping God. Thats when God sent word to his people through
his prophets.
U. Whats a prophet?
B. Theyre people God sent to relay warnings to the Hebrew nation also called Israelites that if
they continue to worship idols, their earthy kingdom will be destroyed. Interestingly, all of the
prophets credited God as the author of the commandments and warnings they proclaimed. We
dont need to look at every reference to the word of the Lord, but, lets look at a few so you can
get an idea of how important the prophets felt about the people knowing they were hearing Gods
word.
First Kings 6: 1 The word of the LORD came to Solomon,
First Kings 12: 22 But this word of God came to Shemaiah,
First Kings 13:1 By the word of the LORD a man of God came,
First Kings 16:1 Then the word of the LORD came to Jehu,
First Kings 17:2 Then the word of the LORD came to Elijah,
First Kings 22:19 Micaiah continued, "Therefore hear the word of the Lord,
Second Kings 20:16 Then Isaiah said to Hezekiah, "Hear the word of the Lord,
Isaiah. 1:2 Hear, O heavens! Listen, O earth! For the LORD has spoken,
Ezekiel 1:3 the word of the LORD came to Ezekiel the priest,
Hosea 1:1 The word of the LORD that came to Hosea,
Joel 1:1 The word of the LORD that came to Joel,
Amos 3:1 Hear this word the LORD has spoken,
Jonah 1:1 The word of the LORD came to Jonah,
Micah 1:1 The word of the LORD that came to Micah,
Zephaniah 1:1 The word of the LORD that came to Zephaniah,
Haggai 1:1 the word of the LORD came through the prophet Haggai,
Zechariah 1:1 the word of the LORD came to the prophet Zechariah,
Malachi 1:1 An oracle: The word of the LORD to Israel through Malachi,.
Am I boring you?
U. Yeah. Thats a lot of redundancy. Why list so many?
B. I wanted you to appreciate how many times the Bible claims the word of the Lord came to
people. We could have looked at others, but thats enough to prove the point.
U. Agreed. So, are you saying that the consistency of the Old Testament is due to the writers
faithfulness in proclaiming what the Lord said and being sure to write what actually happened?
B. Thats exactly what I mean. There is no middle ground. The Bible is either the word of God or
those writers lied. The Bible indicates that God took an active role in the Hebrews life,
government, and religion.
U. Is he still doing that in our lives today?
B. Not like he did during the Old Testament. He had selected the Hebrew nation to prepare for
Jesus and the rules and regulations and warnings were for them. All of the references we looked
at were in the Old Testament, and we now live under the New Testament. When Jesus came, he
became Gods new spokesman.
U. Ive heard that Jesus didnt really think he was anyone special. He was just a teacher and after
he died, his followers made up all that stuff about him.
B. Read what God said concerning Jesus in Matthew 3:17.
U. This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; listen to him.
B. Jesus insisted that his words and his teachings are consistent with God his father. In John
14:10, read what he said.
U. The words I say to you are not just my own. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing
his work.
U. So how many books did Jesus write?
B. He didnt write any. His followers wrote about what he said and did.
U. Then they must have forgotten or made up a lot of things.
B. (To the Audience) How do you answer that?
B. Jesus told them this just before he died. Read John 14:25.
U. All this I have spoken while still with you. But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the
Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have
said to you.
B. Jesus had taught them everything while he was alive and with them, but they were just men,
and they would forget. So God sent the Holy Spirit to remind them of everything Jesus told
them. Thats why what they wrote is true.
U. Well, Ive heard several say that Paul just made up Christianity.
(To the Audience) How do you answer that?
B. Paul was adamant that his writings were not his words but Gods. Read First Corinthians 2:13.
U. Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we
might know the things that God has freely given to us. This is what we speak, not in the words
from mans wisdom, but in words the Holy Spirit teaches; comparing spiritual things with
spiritual.
U. Who is this Holy Spirit?
B. Good question. Hes been around since the beginning. The Apostle Peter says hes the one
who brought the Word of God to the people in the Old Testament. Read First Peter 1:10 -12.
U. The prophets asked and diligently searched concerning this salvation while prophesying of
the grace that is to come to you, searching what it meant. The Spirit of Christ was in them and
testified long before the sufferings of Christ and the glory that should follow. It was not revealed
to the prophets who told the things that were to be, but to us. They have been revealed to you by
those who have preached the gospel through the Holy Spirit sent down from heaven.
B. Note that he claims that the words spoken by the Old Testament prophets were revealed to
them, although they didnt understand their full meaning. The Holy Spirit later told Peter and the
other apostles their true meaning and thats what we find in the New Testament. The Holy Spirit
reveals Gods word to people.
U. So, youre telling me that both the writers of the Old and New Testaments received their
message from the Holy Spirit and thats why you think what they said is true?
B If the Bible is consistent, its because the writers were directed in their writings. The Old
Testament writers wrote about things that would happen hundreds of years later. How else could
they know what would happen unless God told them? Does the Bibles consistency mean the
author was God himself?
U. Ill wait to decide if it really is consistent, but yes, I would say the Bible makes the point that
there was only one author and he was God. But Im not convinced the Bible is true, just that the
writers wanted everyone to think they wrote what God wanted written.
B. Fair enough, but if its truly consistent, would you say it was the word of God?
U. If you show me it is consistent, yes, I will accept it as the word of God. Why wont God just
speak to me today?
B. Interesting question. Weve noted that God sent his word many times, but when we look at
how many men he spoke through when compared to how many lived, it was very few.
U. What do you mean?
B. God spoke to Moses about 1500 BC and told him what he wanted the people to do to please
him. Those instructions didnt change until after Jesus died, was resurrected, and ascended to
heaven. Then the New Testament was written and nothing has been written about what God
wants us to do since.
U. So, youre saying God wont speak to me.
B. Or me. We can find out what he wants from the New Testament.
U. OK, but I have some problems accepting the Bible as true.
B. Such as?
U. If the Bible is consistent, why is the God of the Old Testament so mean, while the New
Testament portrays him as loving? The God of the Old kills thousands and maybe millions of
people including women and children. I dont know if I can worship a God like that.
B. Well look into that next time, buts lets summarize what we have been talking about. We
began by your asking why I am a Christian. My response was
1. Because of overwhelming evidence that Jesus is the Son of God, the Christ.
2. We discussed the fact that the Bible was written by over 40 men over a time frame of
about 1500 years.
3. The writers told about Jesus coming.
4. I asked how they would know since they didnt fully understand what Jesus would do and
why.
5. Demonstrated that the writers claim the words they told the people came from God, both
in OT and NT.
6. Have stressed the only way they could have known accurate details about events
hundreds of years in the future was by God directing the message.
U. I have conceded that the writers claim they were writing the words of God, and if they were
able to do what you said, then the book must be from God. However, I dont concede that the
Bible is true. You still must demonstrate that to me. Well see what other lessons say.
(To the Audience) We will continue our discussion next week. Meanwhile what do you think?
How should we conduct ourselves through this type of conversation? This is our advice.
1. Be confident of your position
2. Be respectful of the other persons honesty.
3. Restrain your emotions and let the power of Gods word do the talking.
Theres an interesting story Robert Olgesby told me that I find useful. Once a platoon of soldiers
were ordered to guard a large cannon with instructions to not let it fall into enemy hands. They
posted a guard and everything went well for a few days until the sentry saw a large column of
enemy troops approaching. The lieutenant in charge saw they were outnumbered and began to
panic. His troops also began to panic and started to retreat saying they had to leave the cannon
behind since it was too heavy to pull and stay ahead of the enemy. Finally, a private spoke up
and said, Why dont we let the cannon speak for itself? Immediately they loaded it and pointed
it at the enemy. When it began firing, the enemy scattered in confusion and the cannon was
saved. The Bible is fully capable of speaking for itself.

Second Conversation between B a Believer and U an Unbeliever
Why are the Gods of the Old and New Testaments so Different?
Introduction: Last week, we concentrated on why we believe the Bible as that is our evidence
that God is real, Jesus is his son, and that he died for us. Because of the overwhelming evidence
presented by and in the Bible, we are Christians. This week I read where almost 40 % of young
people in the U.S. believe the Bible is just a book, not Gods Word. Thats sad and an indicator
of the work we have to do. Today, we are going to address one of the favorite complaints of
agnostics and atheists.
U. If the Bible is consistent, why is the God of the Old Testament so mean, while the New
Testament portrays him as loving? The God of the Old kills thousands and maybe millions of
people including women and children. Ive heard that the Old Testament God is a god of wrath.
He just enjoys killing people. I dont know if I can worship a God like that.
B. Who told you that God was like what you say?
U. Ive heard it, dont know where. Is it true? If they are different, then the Bible cant be
consistent and we said last week that if it isnt consistent, then it isnt true and therefore is just a
book of lies. Like one person said, the God of the Old Testament is psychotic, vengeful, jealous,
confused, murderous and evil, whereas the God of the New Testament is all about peace, love
and forgiveness.
B Lets see if they are different. The Bible tells us that God has a plan for mankind. It tells us
that God had this plan from the beginning. When we understand the plan, we can understand
how God acted in Old Testament times and how he acted in New Testament times and how he
acts now.
U. I dont see how you can explain this away. In one part he is a killer and in the other, he is all
love and peace.
B. Lets see what the Bible really says. In the New Testament, Paul told the Ephesians about
Gods plan. Notice it says this plan was made before creation. Read chapter 1, verses 3-10.
U. Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in the heavenly
realms with every spiritual blessing in Christ, for he chose us in him before the creation of the
world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love he predestined us to be adopted as his sons
through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will-- to the praise of his glorious
grace, which he has freely given us in the One he loves. In him we have redemption through his
blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God's grace that he lavished on
us with all wisdom and understanding. And he made known to us the mystery of his will
according to his good pleasure, which he purposed in Christ, to be put into effect when the times
will have reached their fulfillment--to bring all things in heaven and on earth together under one
head, even Christ.
B. Lets note three things about what is said here.
1. God made the plan before he created earth and people, but it was kept a mystery. So God
knew his plan during Old Testament times.
2. He planned, in love, that we would be adopted through his son Jesus where we receive
redemption through Jesus blood.
3. He made his will known when he wanted to, when the time was full.
U. But why the difference? Didnt he love people of the Old Testament, before Jesus came?
B. After God created something, the Bible says he saw it was good. Doesnt that indicate that
God liked it, maybe even loved it?
U. Probably.
B. God created man and woman in his image. Do you think he would have done that if he had
hated them?
U. Guess not, so when did he change?
B. (Aside to the audience), Depending on the persons background, you might want to let them
read the Genesis account. Here, I will just summarize it.
When God created man and woman; he created them without any sin.
U. Whats sin?
B. A person sins when he or she disobeys Gods commands, and that separates them from God
who is totally good and cannot sin. God gave the first man and woman, Adam and Eve, a
command. They lived in the Garden of Eden and they could eat anything growing in the garden
except the fruit of one tree. So since they were human what do you think they did?
U. Ate the fruit.
B. Yep. They ate. Satan, the enemy of God, tempted Eve to eat it, and she gave in and ate, then
gave Adam a bite. In eating, they disobeyed and sinned against God. Sin always has
consequences, and God punished them by putting them out of the garden and telling them that
man would have to earn his living by hard work and the woman would have pain in childbirth.
They began to die at that point and even though they lived many years after that, their bodies
began to age and die a little every day, just like we do now.
U. Hadnt thought of it that way, but guess we do die a little every day. Why did he want them to
die?
B. God began to put his plan into effect, but apparently the time was not right, because Jesus
didnt come for many years. Some years later, God continued his plan by calling a man named
Abram. God told him that if he would leave his country and go where God told him to that he
would do two things. We read about these promises in Genesis 12.
U. I will make you into a great nation and I will bless you; I will make your name great, and you
will be a blessing. I will bless those who bless you, and whoever curses you I will curse; and all
peoples on earth will be blessed through you."
So whats important about these? Did they come true?
B. They did. In fact, the rest of the Bible deals with these two promises.
1. Making him into a great nation, name great, and be a blessing.
2. All people on earth being blessed through him
These promises are key to understanding the Bible.
U. Do these promises explain why God is different in the Old and New Testaments? Does it
explain why he killed so many in the Old Testament, both women and children?
B. God is not different, but it does explain why he did what he did. The rest of the Old Testament
deals with the forming and keeping of this great Hebrew nation. We know it as Israel and it was
an earthly kingdom. In fact, Abrams name was changed to Abraham which means father of
many. Many of the Mideast people are his descendants, both Hebrews and others. The history of
his life and his descendants is a very interesting but a long story. To summarize, he had one son
Isaac who had two sons, and one of those, Jacob, had twelve sons who became known as the
twelve tribes of Israel.
U. I guess they were all perfect people and never sinned. The Bible must be like most old history
books, it just lists the good things people did.
B. Dont guess that, because you would be wrong. They were all people just like you and I and
they made plenty of mistakes. In fact, ten of the twelve sons sold their brother Joseph into
slavery.
U. They dont sound like people to emulate.
B. They didnt know it at the time, but with Gods help, Joseph became the second highest
ranking person in Egypt, just behind Pharaoh. That allowed his family to move to Egypt to
escape a great famine throughout the Mideast. Many years after Joseph died, a new Pharaoh
enslaved the Israelites, and God sent Moses to free them.
U. Ive heard of Moses, but dont remember what he did.
B. Moses led the Hebrews out of Egyptian slavery after God had performed many miracles to
persuade the Egyptian Pharaoh to let them go. Once they had left Egypt, God gave Moses laws
for the new nation. Youve probably heard of the 10 commandments.
U. Yes. Is that all he gave them?
B. No there were over 600 in all and they dealt with both religious and civil matters. They
covered what they should do to worship God and ask for forgiveness when they broke his laws.
After they reached the land which God promised to give Abrahams descendants, they drove out
the people who lived there. God was building a nation on earth which would prepare the world
for Jesus. During this time, God did order the Israelites to kill their enemies. Their enemies
fought them and God fought for Israel. This was part of Gods plan to fulfil his 2
nd
promise to
Abraham.
U. But why kill women and children?
B. Read Deuteronomy 9:4, it tells us what God thought about these people.
U. After the LORD your God has driven them out before you, do not say to yourself, "The LORD
has brought me here to take possession of this land because of my righteousness." No, it is on
account of the wickedness of these nations that the LORD is going to drive them out before you.
It is not because of your righteousness or your integrity that you are going in to take possession
of their land; but on account of the wickedness of these nations, the LORD your God will drive
them out before you, to accomplish what he swore to your fathers, to Abraham, Isaac and
Jacob. Understand, then, that it is not because of your righteousness that the LORD your God is
giving you this good land to possess, for you are a stiff-necked people.
I see that this was to fulfill the promise God made to Abraham. I also notice he said it was not
because of the righteousness of the Hebrews but because of the wickedness of the people. How
wicked were those people?
B Read on in chapter 12: 31.
U. You shall not act toward the LORD your God as they have acted toward their gods; for every
abomination the LORD hates, they have performed for their gods; for they even burn their sons
and their daughters in the fire to their gods.
U. They were bad, burning their children. That reminds me of the Hawaiians tossing their
children into the volcano. This sounds like God punished those people for their wickedness and
rewarded the Israelites because of their father Abraham.
B. Right.
U. Does God love obedient people more than disobedient?
B. This is what he said in Exodus 20:5.
U. I, the LORD your God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children
unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me; and show mercy unto a thousand
generations of those who love me and keep my commandments.
Sounds like its better to love God and keep his commandments,
B. But did God enjoy his enemies being killed?
U. I would, guess he did too.
B. Surprisingly, he didnt. This is what he said about that in the Old Testament. Read Ezekiel
18:21-23.
U. But if a wicked person turns from all of the sins he committed, and keeps all my statutes, and
does what is lawful and right, he shall surely live and not die. All his transgressions shall not be
mentioned to him, but in his righteousness he shall live. Have I any pleasure at all that the
wicked should die? says the Lord GOD. No, rather I am pleased when he returns from his
ways, and lives,
I like the sound of that. He rejoices when one turns from wickedness to righteousness. I was
afraid he just wanted to destroy people.
B. God actually loved all people; however he punished those who didnt obey. God said this in 1
Samuel 2:30, for those that honor me I will honor, and they that despise me shall not be honored.
U. Ive heard that men desire honor even more than money. If I want to honor God, what do I
do, fight for him?
B. The short answer is no. We honor him by obeying and showing our respect and love to him.
As we go through the Old Testament, what we find is that it deals primarily with the first
promise to Abraham. Do you remember it?
U. Make him into a great nation with a great name.
B. After a strong kingdom was established, the Israelites turned from God and began to worship
idols. Because of their evil thoughts and deeds, God sent the nation of Babylon to destroy their
kingdom and take many of them captive to Babylonia.
U. Wasnt Babylon in Iraq? That sounds really severe. Many must have died.
B. Yes, and after this, the Israelites never had another king. God brought many of them back to
Jerusalem after 70 years, but many others scattered throughout what is now the Mideast, Europe
and Africa.
U. So, is that why there are Jews in every nation?
B. That was the beginning and it was all part of Gods plan to fulfill his second promise to
Abraham. Do you remember it?
U. I think it was to bless all nations. Did he do that by scattering the Hebrews?
B. That may have been part of the plan, but it was really fulfilled through Jesus. About 500 years
after the Babylonians destroyed Jerusalem, Jesus was born in Israel. At that time, the Romans
controlled the territory around the Mediterranean, including Israel. The Israelites wanted a king
who could throw off the Roman yoke and set them free. Because there were many promises
about a king coming, they were looking for one.
U. Are you going to tell me that Jesus was that king?
B. He was the king, but not the kind the Israelites expected. After he spent about 3 years teaching
and never organizing an army to fight the Romans, Jesus was arrested by the Jews. Since they
couldnt legally kill him, they turned him over to the Romans. Pilate, the Roman governor asked
him if he was a king. Read in John 18:36 what Jesus said.
U. "My kingdom is not of this world. If it were, my servants would fight to prevent my arrest by
the Jews. But now my kingdom is from another place."
"You are a king, then!" said Pilate.
Jesus answered, "You are right in saying I am a king. In fact, for this reason I was born, and for
this I came into the world, to testify to the truth. Everyone on the side of truth listens to me."
This is strange, Jesus said he was a king but his kingdom was from another place.
B. His kingdom is not a physical kingdom, but a spiritual one. Since it is a spiritual kingdom we
do not fight people. Nowhere in the Bible are Christians told to kill people. Read Matthew 5:44
U. Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you. That sounds hard.
B. We are also told how to live with other people. Jesus said this in Matthew 7:12.
U. So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you,
B. The world knows that as the Golden Rule.
U. But that golden rule was given by Greek philosophers long before Jesus was even born. He
just adopted it.
B. Didnt they say do unto others as they do to you?
U. Yes, but thats what Jesus said.
B. Is that the same as do unto others as you would have them to do to you?
U. Oh, Jesus said treat others as you want them to treat you, not as they treat you. That is
different, and better. So is that the way all Christians act?
B. Thats the way we all should act, unfortunately, were just humans too and we dont always
achieve that goal. If we follow that rule, we wont want to kill anyone since we dont want to kill
ourselves. We do battle, however our battle is to decide whether to choose good or evil. Read
how Paul encourages Christians to fight in Ephesians 6:10.
U. Finally, my brethren, be strong in the Lord, and in the power of his might. Put on the whole
armor of God that you may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil, for we dont fight
against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the
darkness of this world, and against spiritual wickedness in high places.
So the Christians fight is not against real people but spiritual forces?
B. Thats right. In Old Testament times, Gods people fought physical battles because they had a
physical kingdom. Physical kingdoms always had enemies who wanted to conquer them. Since
God wanted that physical kingdom to be there when Jesus came, he preserved it; and to preserve
it, required fighting against people who wanted to destroy it.
U. Why didnt he just make those enemies into good people so they wouldnt have to kill all
those women and children?
B. For his own reasons, God does not make people do anything they dont want to do. He allows
them to make the choice.
U. But then, he fought against them when they fought the Hebrews.
B. Thats right.
U. Ive also heard he destroyed cities and people on occasion.
B. He did, but God only destroyed people who were evil. He never destroyed righteous people.
Today, Gods kingdom is not physical but spiritual; therefore Christians have no fight against
people, only the battle within ourselves to make the right choices, so we can be pleasing to God.
U. My friend just went to see the new Noah movie. He said the Creator killed everyone except
Noah and Noah didnt seem all that righteous to him. Was Noah one of Abrahams descendants?
B. Just the opposite, Abraham was one of Noahs descendants; Noah lived hundreds of years
before Abraham was born. I havent seen the movie, but from what I read, about the only
similarity with the Bibles account was the man Noah, the ark, and the flood.
U. But the movie had everyone being killed.
B. The Bible has everyone killed except 8 people, Noah, his wife, and his three sons and their
wives. Lets turn over to Genesis 6:9 and read about why that happened.
U. Noah was a righteous man, blameless among the people of his time, and he walked with God.
Noah had three sons: Shem, Ham and Japheth. Now the earth was corrupt in God's sight and
was full of violence. God saw how corrupt the earth had become, for all the people on earth had
corrupted their ways. So God said to Noah, "I am going to put an end to all people, for the earth
is filled with violence because of them. I am surely going to destroy both them and the earth. So
make yourself an ark of cypress wood; make rooms in it and coat it with pitch inside and out.
This is how you are to build it: The ark is to be 450 feet long, 75 feet wide and 45 feet high.
Make a roof for it and finish the ark to within 18 inches of the top. Put a door in the side of the
ark and make lower, middle and upper decks. I am going to bring floodwaters on the earth to
destroy all life under the heavens, every creature that has the breath of life in it. Everything on
earth will perish.
B. What kind of man was Noah?
U. It says he was righteous, blameless and walked with God.
B. What about the rest of the people?
U. They were corrupt and violent.
B. So who did God save, the righteous or the violent?
U. Well, the righteous, but why did he have to kill all the others? That seems kind of over the top
to me.
B. Perhaps it was, because God said he would never destroy the earth by water again. He even
set the rainbow as a symbol of that promise. Read Genesis 9:13.
U. I have set my rainbow in the clouds, and it will be the sign of the covenant between me and
the earth. Whenever I bring clouds over the earth and the rainbow appears in the clouds, I will
remember my covenant between me and you and all living creatures of every kind. Never again
will the waters become a flood to destroy all life. Whenever the rainbow appears in the clouds, I
will see it and remember the everlasting covenant between God and all living creatures of every
kind on the earth." But we still have floods.
B. Not like the one Noah experienced. Ours are only local. But do you see that God did not
destroy the righteous, he saved them.
U. Yes, I see thats what the Bible story says. But I saw something about Sodom and Gomorrah
on the TV and God destroyed the cities and killed the people, women and children included.
B. Genesis 13 tells us what kind of people lived there.
U. Now the men of Sodom were wicked and were sinning greatly against the LORD. It only talks
about men, why kill women and children too?
B. This did happen during the lifetime of Abraham. In fact the Lord told Abraham what he was
about to do. He said if he could find 50 righteous people there, he would spare the city. Abraham
talked him into promising that if he could find 10 righteous ones there he would not destroy it.
U. He couldnt even find 10?
B. There were only 4, a man named Lot, his wife, and his two daughters. They were not
destroyed but everyone else was.
U. Who decides whether they were righteous or not?
B. In the end, thats Gods judgment. He is the creator. If he says it is wrong, it is wrong.
U. I dont like that. Do Christians get to decide about me and my friends? I have read that
Christians have killed more people than any other religion. They have even killed a lot of other
Christians. Werent they violent?
B. I dont know the figures to compare with other religions. All of them have killed way too
many people. But I do know that when Christians kill other people they are not doing it because
God told them so.
U. Your government is fighting Islamic terrorists now.
B. True, but thats our government, not Christianity. Thats survival of our physical government
in a world full of evil. If Christians participate in that, it isnt as a Christian but as a U.S. citizen.
U. During the Crusades, didnt Christians fight Muslims for Christ?
B. Many of them thought they were. That was a time when many could not read so they accepted
what they were told by their religious leaders. Unfortunately, their leaders had let power corrupt
them and they were not following Jesus teachings. If so, they would never have sent armies
under the cross of Christ to fight physical battles.
U. So youre blaming their leaders.
B Thats right, because nowhere in the New Testament do you find any reason for a Christian to
fight unbelievers. Christians have the duty to teach, not fight. You see, we all have minds, and if
a person does not believe, he cannot be forced to be a Christian. He can agree to say he believes
when he really doesnt to avoid being killed, but that doesnt make him a Christian. One must
believe that God sent his son so that everyone who believes in him can be saved.
U. Then why do Christians fight Christians, like in Ireland for example.
B. Men want to gain power. They have also found that religion can be a strong influence and a
way to gain power. Desire for power causes people to do terrible things and corrupt Jesus to
gain a large following. Thats why we shouldnt just accept what men say, we should look at
what God tells us in the Bible.
U. So Jesus didnt expect his followers to fight each other, even if some didnt agree with what
he said?
B. Absolutely not. There is nowhere in the Bible where Christians are told to kill anyone for
religious purposes. Anyone can be a Christian, but that is that persons personal decision. He
cant be forced to believe although he could be forced to act like he did. If a person doesnt
believe in God and his son Jesus the Christ, he cannot be a Christian.
U. But in the Old Testament, God told Christians to kill others.
B. There were no Christians during the Old Testament because Jesus had not yet been born.
There were no Christians until after Jesus lived, died, and was resurrected by God and his
followers began to teach about him.
U. Are you saying that Israelis were not Christians?
B. Right, the Israelites were not Christians. God formed the nation of Israel to fulfil his promise
to Abraham. That was during the time of a physical kingdom, now we live in the time of the
spiritual kingdom. Now, Christians do not seek to gain converts or land or money by fighting
with people. We seek to treat others as we want to be treated and to teach about Jesus and his
will for people. God hasnt changed, he still wants everyone to come to him, worship him, and
be forgiven.
U. So, now God just forgives people no matter what?
B. Read what Paul told his audience in Acts 17:
U. In the past God overlooked such ignorance, but now he commands all people everywhere to
repent. For he has set a day when he will judge the world with justice by the man he has
appointed. He has given proof of this to all men by raising him from the dead.
What does he mean by repent? And whats this day when he will judge the world?
B. Repent means to change your mind and therefore the way you live; in other words, to begin
living to please God. There will be a day when men will have to give an answer for the way they
have lived. Read what Jesus said in Matthew 12:36 and 37.
U. But I tell you that men will have to give account on the Day of Judgment for every careless
word they have spoken. For by your words you will be acquitted, and by your words you will be
condemned.
B. God gave his word to mankind so people will know how to live and be accepted on the Day of
Judgment.
U. I dont like the Day of Judgment. I thought the God of the New Testament was just love and
peace. Why do you speak of a day of judgment?
B. Because Jesus did. God is love, but the statement about God honoring those who honor him is
just as valid today as it was then. After Jesus died and before he ascended back into heaven, he
gave these orders to his disciples. Read what Jesus said in Mark 16:15 and 16.
U. He said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the good news to all creation. Whoever
believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.
What do I have to believe, what is this good news?
B. That is what Jesus disciples are to teach. Paul tells what the good news is in 1 Corinthians 1:1-
4. He calls it the gospel, but gospel just means good news.
U. Now, brothers, I want to remind you of the gospel I preached to you, which you received and
on which you have taken your stand. By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word
I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain. For what I received I passed on to you
as of first importance: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, that he was
buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures.
So to be saved, I have to believe that Jesus died for my sins, was buried, and raised on the
third day?
B. Thats what it says. Those who believe and act accordingly have nothing to fear on the Day of
Judgment. Thats the good news.
U. I dont know if I can believe that. I still dont accept the Bible as true.
B. We have talked about how God revealed his plan when the time was ready. Do you know at
what rate Christianity grew after it was introduced?
U. No.
B. In Acts one, there were gathered 120 of his disciples gathered together after Jesus ascended
and while they were in Jerusalem. A few days later there were more than 3000 baptized
believers. That number continued to grow as Christianity spread to India, North Africa,
throughout the Roman Empire and some scholars have estimated that there were probably 1
million Christians by the end of the first century. In the next two hundred years, Christianity
became the dominant religion throughout that area. This was done without military conquest, no
fighting against people, but teaching. And that was in spite of intense persecution by the Roman
Empire who claimed they would stamp the religion from the world. They werent able to do that
and instead Christianity grew. The reason it grew was that people wanted to be pleasing to God
and they accepted this good news about how to do that.
U. They didnt have an army conquering lands and making people become Christians?
B. No army. The Christians just taught their neighbors and lived their teachings. Even when they
were dying at the hands of the government, pagans were watching their faith and courage and
throwing off idolatry to become Christians.
U. How many Christians are there today?
B. Ive seen estimates of over 2 billion which is near one third of the worlds population. I dont
know just how accurate that is, but there are Christians in almost every nation, even the
communist and muslin nations.
U. How many are real Christians and practice what they believe?
B. Only God knows. Here in this country only about half of those who say they are Christian
actively attend worship.
U. Maybe I will believe if I can come to believe the Bible is true and not a book of lies.
B. We can explore that further, but this is what we have tried to demonstrate today:
The God of the Old Testament is not psychotic, vengeful, jealous, confused, murderous
and evil. These are actions of weak people. God created all things and sustains all things.
He made a plan to prepare the world for Jesus and behaved accordingly.
He did order the Hebrews to fight to establish and protect their nation and on occasion he
did help fight their battles. He did that to preserve that nation for Jesus to be born into
when the time was right.
God still honors those who honor him, he has not changed.
He still holds people responsible for their actions and demands obedience.
The God of the New Testament does not order Christians to fight because we dont have
a physical kingdom but a spiritual one.
God is love, but does not promise eternal life to any except those who obey him.

U. Okay, I see why you think God is the same in both the Old and New Testaments, but I still
have concerns about the Bible.
B. What is your concern?
U. How can I believe the Bible when all scientists think it is a bunch of foolishness? They dont
believe in your God.
B. We will address that next week.
(To the audience) What do you think? How could we enhance our case? Have we
adequately discussed why God acted the way he did in the Old Testament?

Third Conversation between B a Believer and U an Unbeliever
How can I believe the Bible when all scientists think it is a bunch of
foolishness? They dont believe in your God.
U. How can I believe the Bible when all scientists think it is a bunch of foolishness? They dont
believe in your God.
B. Do all scientists disbelieve? A Pew poll in 2009 showed that just over half of the scientists
interviewed believed in God or a higher supernatural power. Only 17 % claimed to be Atheists,
the rest were either Agnostic or nothing. In fact this ratio is very close to a poll taken a hundred
years ago.
Even if every scientist disbelieves in God, do you want to base your life on beliefs of other
people?
U. No, but I might value their opinion.
B. If their opinion is based on evidence and not prejudice?
U. Sure. But dont scientists base their beliefs on facts?
B. What scientific facts would cause you to disbelieve?
U. Evolution. Everyone believes in evolution.
B. Do you think everything around you just happened or evolved? Even the complicated
relationships between plants and animals? How could they develop such synergistic
relationships?
U. Are you suggesting Intelligent Design? Isnt that just another name for creation?
B. Its not exactly the same, but no. I am saying that when I look around me, I cant conceive of
anything as complicated and interrelated as our earth and universe just happening. I dont see
anything just happening like that today.
U. The world is a complicated place, but it had lots of time to evolve. I dont have any difficulty
in believing that it could.
B. How did the universe come to be?
U. It all started with the Big Bang.
B. When did the Big Bang theory come into play?
U. I think it began in the 1930s.
B. What did the science textbooks say about the earth before that?
U. Perhaps that everything had just existed forever just like it is today.
B. And did you know that some scientists ridiculed the Bible because it said there was a
beginning?
U. I didnt know that, but it doesnt surprise me. Maybe it was the seven days of creation and
Ushers belief that the earth is only about 6000 years old. Everyone knows that evolution needs
more time than that.
B. The Bibles account of how it began was written about 3500 years ago, and it hasnt changed.
Science textbooks do, but the Bible hasnt. It has always stated there was a beginning, but
science didnt start promoting that until less than 100 years ago. Isnt that enough to cause some
concern about staking any belief on just science? Isnt science a constantly shifting foundation
whereas the Bible has remained constant?
U. If the Bible was right, but scientists say it isnt. Just yesterday, I read where one of the
premier astrophysicists said that Genesis need to be rewritten to get the order right.
B. Really. Wonder how long it has been since he read Genesis?
U. I dont know, but he is very well recognized. He says the Big Bang explains how the universe
began.
B. The big bang theory doesnt contradict the Bible.
U. How could that be? The Bible says it was created in 6 days, whereas the Big Bang occurred
about 14 billion years ago.
B. Lets see if what science says about the order the earth formed contradicts the Bible. Do you
know what order most scientists say the earth developed?
U. Yes. First the Big Bang about 14 billion years ago, then the earth formed about 4.5 billion
years ago.
B. Lets make a chart like this. Well come back later and compare it with the Bible.
U. Thats funny. Ive got to see that.
B. Then we have something to look forward to. After earth formed, what happened?
U. Most scientists think the moon was then captured by earths gravity.
B. What was the condition of earth at that time?
U. Hot with a heavy atmosphere of dust and debris. Many years later, it cooled and the land and
seas came into existence.
B. That reminds me of what God said. Read this. In verse 4 and 9 where God asked questions
about the creation of the earth.
U. Where were you when I laid the earth's foundation?...When I made the clouds its garment and
wrapped it in thick darkness. God said that in Job?
B. Yep. So, now our chart looks like this, agreed? If you had been standing on the earth at that
time, could you have seen the sun?
Science Bible
Big Bang ~ 14 GA
Earth Forms ~ 4.5
GA

Moon captured
Earth covered with
clouds and debris

Land and seas
U. Like you said, first question first. Yes, thats what the chart should look like and second, no if
there were thick clouds I couldnt see the sun. But no one was alive then.
B. No argument there. Now read Gen. 1.
U. In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. Now the earth was formless and
empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the
waters.
B. Notice that when the Bible begins, the earth exists, but it is formless and empty. Also notice
that the point of view is from the surface of the earth where the Spirit of God hovered. This point
of view is important. Continue reading in Genesis.
U. And God said, "Let there be light," and there was light. God saw that the light was good, and
he separated the light from the darkness. God called the light "day," and the darkness he called
"night." And there was evening, and there was morning--the first day.
See, it mentions day whereas science says it was 9.5 Billion years. Light must have been
generated when the big bang started and this has it on the first day.
B. So, is time our only issue? Could it be that the clouds over earth were so dark, light couldnt
penetrate?
U. Oh. Could be.
B. Now read verses 6 through 10.
U. And God said, "Let there be an expanse between the waters to separate water from water." So
God made the expanse and separated the water under the expanse from the water above it. And it
was so. God called the expanse "sky." And there was evening, and there was morning--the
second day.
And God said, "Let the water under the sky be gathered to one place, and let dry ground appear."
And it was so. God called the dry ground "land," and the gathered waters he called "seas."
So then there was water on earth, in the sky and then there was dry land and seas. Interesting.
B. So now the chart looks like this.
Science Bible
Big Bang ~ 14 GA Light, heavens and earth
Earth Forms ~ 4.5 GA Is there but formless and empty
Earth covered with
clouds and debris
Separated waters on earth and in
sky
Moon captured
Land and seas
Skip down to verse 14. Well come back to 11 when we start talking about how life formed.
Right now were looking at the development of inanimate things.
U. And God said, "Let there be lights in the expanse of the sky to separate the day from the night,
and let them serve as signs to mark seasons and days and years, and let them be lights in the
expanse of the sky to give light on the earth." And it was so. God made two great lights--the
greater light to govern the day and the lesser light to govern the night. He also made the stars.
God set them in the expanse of the sky to give light on the earth, to govern the day and the night,
and to separate light from darkness. And God saw that it was good.
But the sun and stars were formed before earth.
B. So lets add this to the chart. Isnt it interesting how the earths development in Genesis
corresponds with science?
Science Bible
Big Bang ~ 14 GA Light, heavens and earth
Earth Forms ~ 4.5 GA Is there but formless and empty
Earth covered with clouds
and debris
Separated waters on earth and
in sky
Moon captured Set light for day and one for
night and seasons
Land and seas Made dry land appear
U. But science says the sun and stars already existed before earth.
B. Dont forget our point of view. Surprisingly, the Bibles viewpoint isnt from what is often
called a Gods Eye view; it is from the surface of the earth. In Genesis 1:2, it said the spirit
was hovering over the waters. Then it talks about days. There is no such thing as a day in space.
The day depends on the revolution of the earth and is only observed on earth. So what the Bible
is saying is from an observer on earth and that after the thick clouds dissipated enough, the stars,
sun, and moon were visible from earth.
U. Oh, so from the earth, the sun and moon may have been there but they couldnt be seen. But
there were no observers.
B. Except for the Spirit. The sun had to already be there for a day to exist. Just like on a dark
cloudy day, we see evidence of the sun but not the sun.
U. OK.
B. Have you thought about the coincidence that the sun and moon appear to be the same size
when we know they are vastly different in diameter?
U. Yeah thats a coincidence. The sun is about 400 times larger. They look the same because
their differences in distance and size is the same ratio.
B. Why should they appear that way to us? What are the odds? Perhaps its only because God
made them so for our amazement, and our ability to learn information about the sun. We have
learned much about the sun during total eclipses that just couldnt be determined otherwise.
Maybe God wanted us to learn more about his creation.
U. I dont know about that.
B. Think on it. What do you think about the order of events?
U. Thats surprising agreement in order. But it still says it happened in 4 days.
B. Heres three things to consider about those days.
1. Moses was writing 3500 years ago when no one would have understood what a million
meant, let alone a billion.
2. The Hebrew word for day can mean an indefinite time, so rather than being a literal 6
days this might have been figurative language and an indeterminate time.
3. The Genesis account could have been understood by primitive people as well as scientists
today and there are many today who believe in creation by God, including scientists who
believe Genesis accurately portrays the creation.
The big question is How did Moses know the order? The Big Bang wasnt even suggested for
another 3400 years.
U. But science still says evolution caused all this to happen and God isnt needed.
B. Why dont we make another chart comparing how life developed?
U. Are you setting another trap for me?
B. No, no traps, we just want to honestly examine the facts. Arent you curious?
U. Yes, especially since you have shown such good agreement.
B. OK, so what does science say about life forming on earth?
U. I remember reading that bacteria were alive about 3.8 billion years ago. Biology seemed to
mix up the exact formation of these small simple plants and animals.
B. What about the formation of large plants and animals we now know?

Science Bible
3.8 BYA -Bacteria
Land plants 425 MYA
Fish 405 MYA
Land Animals 181 MYA
Man 11 TYA

U. I think plants came first, then fish, then animals on land, and then modern man. But its really
difficult to say whether land plants or fish came first because their origins are so close in time.
Theres only about 5 percent difference in time and Im not sure those times are that accurate.
B. We both share a suspicion about how accurate those times are, but forgetting time, lets agree
our chart looks like this. Now, lets see what the Bible says. Read Genesis 1:11-12, the verse we
skipped over a moment ago.
U. Then God said, "Let the land produce vegetation: seed-bearing plants and trees on the land
that bear fruit with seed in it, according to their various kinds." And it was so. The land
produced vegetation: plants bearing seed according to their kinds and trees bearing fruit with
seed in it according to their kinds. And God saw that it was good.
Its interesting that it says according to their kinds. No changing kinds then.
B. Continue in verses 20 through 25.
U. And God said, "Let the water teem with living creatures, and let birds fly above the earth
across the expanse of the sky." So God created the great creatures of the sea and every living
and moving thing with which the water teems, according to their kinds, and every winged bird
according to its kind. And God saw that it was good. God blessed them and said, "Be fruitful and
increase in number and fill the water in the seas, and let the birds increase on the earth." And
there was evening, and there was morning--the fifth day.
They were according to their kinds too. No changing kinds for the fish and birds either. But
thats not what evolutions says.
B. No, but it is what we observe isnt it. Weve never seen a fish or bird produce anything except
after their kinds. All the finches Darwin observed, were still finches werent they?
U. Yes, although they had different kinds of beaks.
B. I cant say for sure where the kinds end, but they still do just what they did when they were
created. Now, our chart looks like this. Looks pretty close to me.

Science Bible
3.8 BYA -Bacteria No mention
Land plants 425 MYA Plants with seed and fruit
Fish 405 MYA Fish & Birds
Land Animals 181 MYA
Man 11 TYA

U. Guess I forgot about birds.
B. (To the readers) Why I didnt put the days in the chart is that I havent found it profitable to
get into the 6 days of creation argument with an unbeliever. Bible believers may not have a
problem with the 6 days, but unbelievers will. There is so much evidence to convince the
unbeliever that the Bible is Gods word, that the 6 day theory should be bypassed. At least thats
my opinion, so I will concentrate on showing that God is the creator.
B. To continue, read verses 24 and 25.
U. And God said, "Let the land produce living creatures according to their kinds: livestock,
creatures that move along the ground, and wild animals, each according to its kind." And it was
so. God made the wild animals according to their kinds, the livestock according to their kinds,
and all the creatures that move along the ground according to their kinds. And God saw that it
was good.
So all animals reproduce after their kind too. What about when someone breeds different kinds
of dogs, or cows and produce different breeds?
B. Like I said, I dont know exactly what kinds limits. But the different breeds of dogs are all
dogs arent they. No cats or birds or fish result.
U. Thats so. I didnt realize that the Bible said this about the plants and animals.

Science Bible
3.8 BYA -Bacteria No mention
Land plants 425 MYA Plants with seed
and fruit
Fish 405 MYA Fish & Birds
Land Animals 181 MYA Land Animals
Man 11 TYA

B. Add that to the chart, and we theres no disagreement. And now lets look at Gods final
creation. Read Genesis 1:26 -28.
U. Then God said, "Let us make man in our image, in our likeness, and let them rule over the fish
of the sea and the birds of the air, over the livestock, over all the earth, and over all the
creatures that move along the ground."
So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he
created them.
God blessed them and said to them, "Be fruitful and increase in number; fill the earth and
subdue it. Rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air and over every living creature that
moves on the ground."
B. Our chart looks like this. How did Moses get the order correct when science didnt put it in
this order until the 19
th
century?
U. But the Bible doesnt mention the bacteria and simple creatures. They lived almost 4 million
years ago.
B. The Bible is not a science textbook. People didnt know about these small invisible creatures
until the microscope was invented about 3000 years after Moses wrote Genesis. What would the
people have understood? I suggest that the creation account talks about what the people could
observe when it was written, not what science might discover hundreds or thousands of years
later. What do you think about the chart?
U. Im surprised Moses could get the order correct. How did he know?
B. Perhaps the Holy Spirit helped him. Notice too, that what scientists call the most evolved
animal was Gods final creation - Man - who is given dominion over all plants and animals.
Something to think about.
U. Then why dont scientists believe the Bible? Surely they know this.
B. Many do and believe, but I dont know about all. Many havent even read Genesis, let alone
compared what it says with their theories. They may base their thinking on what some teacher
told them instead of investigating for themselves. Remember from our first chart, the poll says
three times as many believe in God or a higher power than are atheists. I cant explain why other
scientists dont believe.
U. But so many make fun of anyone who doesnt accept evolution.
B. They sure do. Guess they forgot about making fun of those who didnt think the earth had
been around forever once the Big Bang got accepted. I might accept evolution if someone will
explain two things to me. First, since evolution seems to say it all just happened, where is the
evidence that something can suddenly come from nothing?
U. I dont know. But the Big Bang says there was something, all matter was condensed into a
tiny spot.
B. And who put it there? Second, how did life first began?
U. It just did
B. Do you have a scientific model

How complicated is the simplest life form we now have? Look at this simplified picture of a
bacteria cell, the most simple form of life we know. Not one or two parts, but every single one
must be included for life to persist. Scientists have taken living cells, broken the membrane so all
the parts are in the test tube, but they cant put them back together again. Its like Humpty
Dumpty.
U. But the fossil record shows that animals evolved.
B. Thats what they tell us, like perhaps what this picture which shows Darwins theory of how
life would develop from one form to more complicated animals. It all starts with a basic life form
which slowly evolves over millions of years.
Supposedly, after many years, we find what we have now, but shouldnt there be many
transitional forms of life in the fossils?
U. Yeah, there are some transitional forms.
B. You mean like this picture of man evolving from apes which is very prevalent in science
books.
U. Isnt that what happened? Ive seen this
picture since I was a kid.
B. Its been around for years, although in recent
years, genetic studies have shown its false. Im
not sure any practicing biologist would defend
it now. At the most, they say that we have a
common ancestor with the apes. More recently,
scientists have found that man did not descend from Neanderthals either. This picture really
should be thrown in the trash instead of touted for evolution. It just has no validity. It has been
completely debunked by genetic studies.
U. The fossil record shows animals have been around for millions of years.
B. What about the fossil record? It doesnt agree with progressive evolution either. During the
Cambrian period, many more complicated plants and animals than apparently existed before that
time, just seemed to explode onto the scene. So many that it is referred to the Cambrian
explosion. In fact, the fossil record looks more like this than what Darwin proposed. There is no
one root, they seem to be independent from one another with no missing links.
U. Some biologists have explanations for this, but I cant remember what they were.
B. Can they explain the explosion of information that this represents?
U. What do you mean, explosion of information?
B. Every new more complicated creature requires much more information. Estimates of the
information stored in 1 genome is about 750 megabytes. Where did this information come from?
The theory of evolution began when they thought the cell was just simple and it wouldnt be hard
for a few proteins to form and then form a living cell.
U. No one has been able to form life yet in the lab, but maybe they will sometime.
B. Perhaps, but Im not holding my breath. The information packed into the cell controls how the
cell reproduces, what it reproduces into, what it eats, how it disposes of waste, and every aspect
of its life. The human body contains about 10 trillion cells which would store about 7.5 billion
terabytes. It is estimated that the global digital storage capability in 2012 was 2.7 billion
terabytes or enough to store about 1/3 of a bodys data. Where did all this information come
from? Just happening is very hard to swallow. Biologists are struggling to explain this.
U. Well, Im not a biologist.
B. Some scientists have recently put 900 TB into 1 gram of DNA, a thousand times greater than
any other storage mechanism known. Yet the first living cell contained information stored at that
density. Also some recent data indicates that DNA stores its data in both digital and analog form.
U. Both forms?
B. That means the data is like a CD and a vinyl record at the same time. If youre old enough to
remember vinyl records or tape players.
U. I do, but not many people use analog formats anymore. I know some musicians think analog
is superior to digital in listening quality, but digital is so much more compact.
B. Perhaps we dont use both because we dont know how to do it on the same recording media.
The more we look into the microscopic world, the more systematic organization we find and the
more questions evolution cant answer. Heres another question. How many 100 year old science
text books are in use today?
U. I would guess none.
B. Probably right. Why?
U. Scientific knowledge has increased so the text books would be obsolete. Thats progress.
B. Yet the Bible is 3500 years old and it still relays accurate information about the order in
which the earth and life developed. Can science explain how this man Moses got it right?
U. Science doesnt deal with religion.
B. Can science observe the past?
U. Well no. They observe the present and use theories and laws to predict how it happened in the
past.
B. Right. So science cant say what makes people happy and what our purpose is.
U. Of course not. But by putting the theories and measurements together, it can do a good job of
telling us how everything came to be.
B. Except how matter first came into existence or how life first began. How can you accept
evolution when it cant explain the origins of anything?
U. But my teachers said it evolved.
B. You have a mind, use it and decide for yourself, but dont rely on what some other person
tells you, not even me. When you ask evolutionists how anything that has a complicated
relationship came to be, they just wave their hands and say it evolved.
U. If you have billions of years, why couldnt it?
B. If it ever accidently began in the first place, which is so highly unlikely that it boggles the
mind. Where did matter come from, how did life began, and why does it still reproduce after its
own kind like the Bible says? Those are critical questions.
U. I dont know.
B. Can science tell us how to live fulfilling lives or what our purpose in life is?
U. No.
B. The Bible can and does. Why does it understand human nature so well?
U. Im not sure it does. It still says creation took 6 days.
B. Is that human nature? The Bible is not a science book. It deals with humans and our basic
needs. Whether it took 6 days or billions of years doesnt matter to me. What matters is that
Moses got it right way before science thinks it has, and he declared that God is the creator of
everything. Creation is the only explanation for how life and matter came about.
There probably wont be any 2014 science text books around in 2114, but the Bible will still be
there and it will still proclaim that God created the heavens and the earth and that The heavens
declare the glory of God; the skies proclaim the work of his hands. Day after day they pour forth
speech; night after night they display knowledge. There is no speech or language where their
voice is not heard.

Their voice goes out into all the earth, their words to the ends of the world.
And the Bible will still be the basic handbook for telling us the meaning of life and why this
world is in existence.
U. I will admit it got the right order and did so long before science figured it out. But why is the
world what it is?
B. Read Isaiah 45:18
U. For this is what the LORD says-- he, who created the heavens, he is God; he who fashioned
and made the earth, he founded it; he did not create it to be empty, but formed it to be inhabited-
- he says: "I am the LORD, and there is no other.
So God made the earth for people?
B. You see, you can look as long as you wish, but you will never find any scientific fact that
contradicts the Bible. You may find a theory, but science is full of theories that have been shown
wrong and abandoned. Archeology has sometimes come up with findings that seem to contradict
the Bible but so many have been later found to be wrong that you hardly ever hear of them
anymore.
Why do we call evolution science?
U. Because its based on observations.
B. Is it? Every scientific experiment proves that something cant come from nothing and that life
only comes from preexisting life. Evolution denies both facts with no evidence to back its theory
up. Thats not science, its godless religion.
U. So if God created everything, what did he create them from?
B. The Bible doesnt say. The word created indicated he made it from nothing instead of shaping
it from something already in existence.
U. But you said something could not come from nothing.
B. Youre right. Thats what I said and its true. God is not nothing.
U. So he created the world from himself?
B. I cant be sure, but Einstein gave us an equation which says matter can be created from energy
and God has all power, therefore all energy. Perhaps he used some of his energy to create
everything.
U. But thats an incredible amount of energy. Do you know how much energy is required to
create one gram of matter?
B. No.
U. Its as much as 100 atom bombs. I cant imagine how many grams there are in the universe, or
how much energy would be required to create everything.
B. Me either, nor can I imagine Gods power. Thats why I worship him, he is all powerful.
U. I understand your thinking and I am amazed at the agreement between modern science and
the Bible. That is hard to believe, but it seems to be true. I see why you said God created
everything and since his spirit told the writers, thats how they knew and got it right.
B. Its really easy to believe, but I know it is a big step right now for you. Lets continue to
study.
U. OK, I want to. Earlier, you said the Old Testament had over 300 references to Christ written
before he was born. Were they accurate and what did they say?
B. We may not be able to cover them all, but lets look at some next week.
U. This is what we have covered.
We wanted to demonstrate that the Bible does accurately describe how the earth began in
spite of what you may read in secular literature.
Its not only accurate, but the Bible described it long before any scientist even dreamed of
how it began. It does this although the Bible is not a book of science.
Science cant answer why and it cant tell us how to live full lives which bring happiness,
but the Bible does.
There is no scientific fact which disproves any statement of the Bible, when it is taken in
context and properly interpreted.
B. (To the audience) I think setting the 6 day theory in concrete is dangerous. Consider that
many practicing scientists believe the Bible and find no contradiction with their work. Many will
never have to make a decision as to whether the earth was created or evolved. However, some
disciplines will make it very difficult for creationists. Thats why I think we should be cautious
when we dogmatically declare our convictions about the creation being done in 6 - 24 hour days.
We may damage a childs faith, because he or she will hear many times in school how foolish
that belief is. The Bible is not all literal; some of it is figurative, such as 1 Peter 1:2, "All flesh is
as grass, and all the glory thereof as the flower of grass." Another example is when Jesus said
"You are a temple of God," in 1 Corinthians 3:16, or when Jesus took a loaf and said this is my
body and he took a cup and said this is my blood of the covenant, in Matthew 26:26-28. We need
to be careful of binding anything on others since we could have the wrong interpretation.
Believing that God created the world does not require believing he did it in 6 literal days.
There are many questions about the dating methods that are used. Sometimes rocks are dated by
the fossils in them and fossils are dated by the rocks they are found in. Thats circular reasoning
and certainly leads to questions. Sometimes, it seems, ancient dates are attributed to new finds
because there is no news unless the archeologists find something very old and even older than
anything else. Brad Harrub has documented many discoveries which question the accuracy of
how rocks, artifacts, and fossils are dated. You can find them in his book Convicted which
should be available in the library. A prime example is the dating of a rock from the 1980 Mt.
Helens eruption as between 350 thousand and 2.8 million years old when it was only 10 years
old. You can find the documentation by googling Mt. St. Helens dating problems and looking
under Radio Dating in rubble. So dont set the so-called scientific dates in concrete either.
Next discussion is on prophecy and Jesus.

Fourth Conversation between B a Believer and U and Unbeliever
Jesus in Prophecy
U. What does the Old Testament say about Jesus?
B. It says a lot, but remember that the plan of Jesus coming to earth, living, dieing and being
resurrected was a mystery until after he had done so. Since it was a mystery, clues are given
which when put together forms a rather complete picture of the plan.
U. Why a mystery?
B. Because that was Gods plan. He said he would reveal it when the time was right. And I guess
it wasnt right until about 2000 years ago.
U. Tell me about some of these clues. Does it say where he was to be born and who his father
was to be?
B. When Jesus was born, some men saw a star in the western sky and believing it heralded the
birth of the Jewish king; they went to King Herod who was the current king. They asked where
the child was.
U. He was in the palace wasnt he?
B. No, and the king didnt know. So he called the Jewish priests and scribes and asked them.
Apparently they knew the Old Testament said where he would be born.
U. So, where?
B. They said the prophet Micah predicted he would be born in Bethlehem, and Micah lived about
700 years before Jesus was born.
U. Many people must have wanted their son to be born in Bethlehem then. Was it a big city?
B. It was a tiny village, best known as the hometown of King David. Perhaps most people didnt
understand the prophecy because there wasnt any rush to be born there.
U. Why was Jesus born there? Is that where his parents lived?
B. They lived in a town called Nazareth and only went to Bethlehem because the Roman
governments made every citizen of Israel go to his home city to enroll in the census. So Joseph
took his very pregnant wife on a grueling 80 mile trip to Bethlehem, something he would never
have done if he could have avoided it.
U. 80 miles. Thats not far.
B. I would seem longer if you had to walk over rough roads and your wife was at least 8 months
pregnant.
U. You said wife. I thought Mary was a virgin. Isnt that whats she is called, the Virgin Mary?
How could she be a virgin if she was married?
B. She was a virgin and the gospels tell us how. Luke 1:26-38 says the angel Gabriel visited
Mary while she was engaged to Joseph, but before they were married.
U. Mary, dont be afraid for you have found favor with God. You shall conceive a child and
bear a son, and shall name him Jesus. He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the
Highest, and the Lord God shall give him the throne of his father David. He shall reign over
Israel forever, and his kingdom shall never end.
Then Mary asked the angel, How can this happen, since I am a virgin?
The angel replied, The Holy Spirit shall come upon you, and the power of the Highest shall
overshadow you, therefore your holy son shall be called the Son of God. Also your cousin
Elizabeth, who has no children, has conceived a son in her old age, and is now in her sixth
month. Nothing is impossible for God.
Mary replied, I am the Lords servant; let it happen according to your words. And the angel
left her.
That talks about her pregnancy, but not her marriage. Are you saying she was pregnant before
she got married? If Joseph wasnt the father, then why did he marry her? They knew what caused
pregnancy didnt they?
B. Absolutely, and she almost didnt get married. Joseph certainly knew how women got
pregnant and he wasnt at all happy when he found out Mary was. It took a visit from an angel to
convince him. Read Matthew 1:18:25.
U. Now the birth of Jesus Christ happened this way. His mother Mary was engaged to be
married to Joseph, however before they came together, she was pregnant through the Holy
Spirit. Joseph, her husband, was a just man and did not want to make her a public example. He
wanted to divorce her privately.
This says he wanted to divorce her, doesnt that mean they were married already?
B. In those days, when one got engaged, they could only get unengaged if they had a public
divorce. Much more strict than now. Read on.
U. While he thought about these things, suddenly the angel of the Lord appeared to him in a
dream saying, Joseph, son of David, dont be afraid to take Mary as your wife, since the child
conceived in her is from the Holy Spirit. She shall bear a son, and you shall call his name Jesus,
for he shall save his people from their sins.
All of this happened to fulfill the Lords words spoken by the prophet who said, Look, a virgin
shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which
means God is with us. When Joseph awoke, he did as the angel of the Lord instructed and
remained engaged to Mary, however, he had no sexual union with her until after she bore her
firstborn son whom he named Jesus.
So she was still a virgin when he was born. Thats strange.
B. But completely in tune with what Eve was told after she had sinned and was being tossed out
of the Garden of Eden.
U. What was that?
B. Read what God told Satan in Gen. 3:15.
U. I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and hers; he will
crush your head, and you will strike his heel." Arent we all offspring of women?
B. We are all offspring of a man and a woman. Jesus is the offspring of only a woman. This also
matches what Isaiah said about 700 years before Jesus was born. Look at Isaiah 7:14.
U. The virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son, and

will call him Immanuel.
Thats what we just read in Matthew.
B. Matthew just quoted Isaiah, thus verifying that the prophecy was about Jesus.
U. But he wasnt named Immanuel, he was named Jesus.
B. Immanuel means God with us, and evidently God wasnt ready to reveal that Jesus was
Immanuel. That was still part of the mystery.
U. Thats a neat package. Did the prophets say who his parents would be?
B. In a way, but he didnt identify them by name. For example, do you remember the promises
God made to Abraham.
U. I think so. The first one said Abrahams descendants would become a great nation and the
second said all nations would be blessed through him.
B. So, the Christ had to be a descendent of Abraham. There are two genealogies given in the
Gospels, one for Mary and one for his adoptive father Joseph. Both were descendants of
Abraham.
U. Wasnt everyone in Israel a descendant of Abraham?
B. Thats about right, so read what Isaiah also said in 11:1
U. A shoot will come up from the stump of Jesse; from his roots a Branch will bear fruit. The
Spirit of the LORD will rest on him-- the Spirit of wisdom and of understanding, the Spirit of
counsel and of power, the Spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD-- and he will delight
in the fear of the LORD. That sounds like a special person. Who was Jesse?
B. Jesse was King Davids father, but this was said some 300 years after David lived. So Isaiah
must have been talking about some other person. Notice the description, sounds like Christ. Also
God had told David that his kingdom would endure forever in 2 Samuel 7:16.
U. Do the genealogies say Mary and Joseph were descendants of David?
B. They do. We said Joseph and Mary did not live in Bethlehem. They lived in Nazareth which
was in the district of Galilee, which was a poor area and not held in high esteem by the people of
Jerusalem.
U. Dont tell me, someone predicted that too.
B. Read what Isaiah said in 9:1
U. In the past he humbled the land of Zebulun and the land of Naphtali, but in the future he will
honor Galilee of the Gentiles, by the way of the sea, along the Jordan-- The people walking in
darkness have seen a great light; on those living in the land of the shadow of death a light has
dawned.
So Jesus was the great light.
B. About 400 years before Jesus was born, Malachi 3:1 promised that someone would come just
before the promised one.
U. "See, I will send my messenger, who will prepare the way before me. Then suddenly the Lord
you are seeking will come to his temple; the messenger of the covenant, whom you desire, will
come," says the LORD Almighty.
B. About three months before Jesus was born, his cousin John was born. We just read about his
mother Elizabeth being very old when he was born. He became known as John the Baptist
because he warned people that the Christ was coming and told them to change and be baptized.
That should have been a warning, but seems like no one picked up on this clue.
U. I like to read who done it novels and I dont always see the clues until after I find out who
did it.
B. That sounds like me. And thats the way the Hebrews were, they didnt always understand the
clues. Clues are always easier to understand when looking back.
U. Thats what they say, hindsight is 20-20. Were there any predictions of what Jesus would do
when he came?
B. In Psalms 78:2, it predicts the promised one would speak in parables. And Jesus spoke in
parables.
U. What is a parable?
B. They are illustrations based on real life situations and have spiritual meanings. Jesus taught a
lot using these because they cause a person to think about what the story means rather than just
being told. For example, this is one Jesus told about a man who went out to plant his field. Read
Matthew 13:3-9.
U.: "A farmer went out to sow his seed. As he was scattering the seed, some fell along the path,
and the birds came and ate it up. Some fell on rocky places, where it did not have much soil. It
sprang up quickly, because the soil was shallow. But when the sun came up, the plants were
scorched, and they withered because they had no root. Other seed fell among thorns, which grew
up and choked the plants. Still other seed fell on good soil, where it produced a crop--a hundred,
sixty or thirty times what was sown. He who has ears, let him hear."
Am I supposed to understand that?
B. Fortunately, Jesus explained it later to his disciples. Read 18 through 23.
U. "Listen then to what the parable of the sower means: When anyone hears the message about
the kingdom and does not understand it, the evil one comes and snatches away what was sown in
his heart. This is the seed sown along the path. The one who received the seed that fell on rocky
places is the man who hears the word and at once receives it with joy. But since he has no root,
he lasts only a short time. When trouble or persecution comes because of the word, he quickly
falls away. The one who received the seed that fell among the thorns is the man who hears the
word, but the worries of this life and the deceitfulness of wealth choke it, making it unfruitful. But
the one who received the seed that fell on good soil is the man who hears the word and
understands it. He produces a crop, yielding a hundred, sixty or thirty times what was sown."
Oh, I get it now. Hes talking about people who hear his message. Hes comparing the people to
soil. What kind am I?
B. That depends on what you do with Jesus words. I hope you will be good soil and produce a
bountiful crop. Its all up to you.
U. But why didnt Jesus just speak plainly to them?
B. Matthew 13:34-35 explains it.
U. Jesus spoke all these things to the crowd in parables; he did not say anything to them without
using a parable. So was fulfilled what was spoken through the prophet: "I will open my mouth in
parables, I will utter things hidden since the creation of the world."
So it was to fulfill prophecy.
B. Yes, and it gives us truths to ponder, remember, and explore in our thoughts. Thats much
more effective that just spelling it out.
U. Guess it is. What else did the prophets say about Jesus?
(To the Audience) Whats your favorite prophecy? Which would you tell me about?
B. Isaiah had a lot to say about this person who was to come. Read chapter 35:3-6.
U. Strengthen the feeble hands, steady the knees that give way; say to those with fearful hearts,
"Be strong, do not fear; your God will come, he will come with vengeance; with divine
retribution he will come to save you." Then will the eyes of the blind be opened and the ears of
the deaf unstopped. Then will the lame leap like a deer and the mute tongue shout for joy.
This talks about both vengeance and healing. They dont seem to match. You sure this was
referring to Jesus?
B. Lets take the last part first. When times got hard for John the Baptist, he wondered if Jesus
was really the Christ so he sent men to ask him. Here is what Jesus told them.
U. Go and show John again those things which you hear and see: the blind receive their sight,
the lame walk, the lepers are cleansed, the deaf hear, the dead are raised, and the poor have the
good news preached to them. Blessed is the one who shall not be offended in me. Thats what
Isaiah said would happen plus some more. So John must have been happy to hear that.
B. Im sure he was. So if the healing part referred to Jesus, the vengeance and retribution must
have also.
U. I like healing better. Is he referring to the Day of Judgment which we discussed a couple of
weeks ago?
B. I think so. Jesus didnt take vengeance while he was here on earth, but he did promise to come
back again. Look at what Isaiah said in 42:1-3
U. "Here is my servant, whom I uphold, my chosen one in whom I delight; I will put my Spirit on
him and he will bring justice to the nations. He will not shout or cry out, or raise his voice in the
streets. A bruised reed he will not break, and a smoldering wick he will not snuff out.
It said he would bring justice, but not with violence.
B. The Jews expected a king which would drive out the Romans. Jesus never encouraged
violence and never got violent himself. So they wouldnt accept him as the promised one.
U. God must have miscalculated if he expected the Jews to take Jesus as their king.
B. Actually, God knew beforehand that Jesus would be rejected and be killed. Yet he sent his son
anyway, because he loved the people so much he was willing for Jesus to die. And Jesus knew he
was going to die, but came anyway.
U. Thats hard to believe, why would anyone do that? I know a lot of people in wartime give
their life for someone else, but they probably dont know they are going to do so before the time,
they react to circumstances. Youre trying to convince me that God knew Jesus would die many
years before he did.
B. Dont take my word for it. There are a bunch of prophecies that talk about his death. Do you
know who Judas was?
U. He was Jesus betrayer.
B. Here are two prophecies about him, both referenced in Matthew 26 an 27.
U. Even my close friend, whom I trusted, he who shared my bread, has lifted up his heel against
me.
I told them, "If you think it best, give me my pay; but if not, keep it." So they paid me thirty pieces
of silver. And the LORD said to me, "Throw it to the potter"--the handsome price at which they
priced me! So I took the thirty pieces of silver and threw them into the house of the LORD to the
potter.
I think I remember that King David lived about 1000 years before Jesus. When did Zechariah
live?
B. About 500 years before Jesus. When Judas betrayed Jesus, the priests paid him 30 pieces of
silver. When he saw that Jesus was going to die, he took the money back to them. They wouldnt
take it, calling it blood money. So threw the coins at them while they were in the temple. The
priests picked them up and bought a field they called potters field to bury poor people in.
U. Hmm. Thats what Zachariah said.
B. When Jesus was arrested, what did the disciples do?
U. I suppose they were arrested too.
B. No, they all ran away. Jesus called himself a shepherd. Look at what Zechariah said in 13:7
about his sheep.
U. "Strike the shepherd, and the sheep will be scattered, and I will turn my hand against the little
ones.
His disciples all ran away! He must have been disappointed.
B. I think he knew they would and that was also part of the plan to save them so they could
witness about Jesus later. If they had died, there would be no Christianity. After he was arrested,
the Jews had a trial. Look at what Isaiah said about that.
U. He was oppressed and afflicted, yet he did not open his mouth; he was led like a lamb to the
slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is silent,
so he did not open his mouth.
Does this mean he didnt defend himself?
B. Exactly. The Jews tried to find some reason to condemn him to death, but they couldnt.
Finally, they asked him if he was the Son of God, and he said he was. Then they condemned him
for blasphemy, although Jesus was really the Son of God. Isaiah said he would be rejected by
men.
U. He was despised and rejected by men, a man of sorrows, and familiar with suffering. Like one
from whom men hide their faces he was despised, and we esteemed him not.
What else did Isaiah say?
B. He even described how he would die. Isaiah 53:5.
U. But he was pierced for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment
that brought us peace was upon him, and by his wounds we are healed. We all, like sheep, have
gone astray, each of us has turned to his own way; and the LORD has laid on him the iniquity of
us all.
I see that being pierced could refer to being crucified, but what does being crushed for our
iniquities have to do with it?
B. Thats the whole reason for his death. By his death, Jesus provided a way that our sins could
be forgiven. In effect, he ransomed us so we could be the people Isaiah spoke of in chapter
62:12.
U. They will be called the Holy People, the Redeemed of the LORD.
Redeemed from what?
B. From our past mistakes, our not obeying everything God has said for us to do. None of us is
perfect, we all make mistakes so we all sin. By being redeemed, we are at peace with God. Read
what Paul wrote in Galatians 3:14.
U. He redeemed us in order that the blessing given to Abraham might come to the Gentiles
through Christ Jesus, so that by faith we might receive the promise of the Spirit.
Hes referring to the second promise to Abraham. So it came true through Jesus?
B. Thats right. Peter explained this redemption in this way. Read 1 Peter 1:18-21.
U. For you know that it was not with perishable things such as silver or gold that you were
redeemed from the empty way of life handed down to you from your forefathers, but with the
precious blood of Christ, a lamb without blemish or defect. He was chosen before the creation of
the world, but was revealed in these last times for your sake. Through him you believe in God,
who raised him from the dead and glorified him, and so your faith and hope are in God.
So life before Christ is empty? This calls him a lamb. Why would Peter do that?
B. When the Hebrews were slaves in Egypt, God freed them out by performing miracles. On
their last night there, they were told to kill a lamb, not break any of its bones, cook it and eat it.
They were also told to put its blood on their doorposts, so the angel of the Lord would not visit
their houses, only the Egyptians. Every year, the Hebrews remembered that night which they
called the Passover. Jesus was killed on the night they were to kill their lambs for Passover, so he
became the redemption for the new Israel, the Holy People Isaiah spoke of. And he died on the
anniversary of the day they first killed the Passover lamb. The reason none of his bones were
broken in the crucifixion was so he could be the perfect Passover lamb.
U. What do you mean, none of his bones were broken? Crucifixion was a cruel death, surely they
broke some bones.
B. The point of crucifying a person was to make him suffer, so they were careful not to break
bones which would hasten death. John tells us why they broke the legs of the other two men
crucified that day. Read John 19:31-37.
U. Now it was the day of Preparation, and the next day was to be a special Sabbath. Because the
Jews did not want the bodies left on the crosses during the Sabbath, they asked Pilate to have the
legs broken and the bodies taken down. The soldiers therefore came and broke the legs of the
first man who had been crucified with Jesus, and then those of the other. But when they came to
Jesus and found that he was already dead, they did not break his legs. Instead, one of the
soldiers pierced Jesus' side with a spear, bringing a sudden flow of blood and water. The man
who saw it has given testimony, and his testimony is true. He knows that he tells the truth, and he
testifies so that you also may believe. These things happened so that the scripture would be
fulfilled: "Not one of his bones will be broken," and, as another scripture says, "They will look
on the one they have pierced."
John referenced these prophecies you mentioned. Why did Jesus die so much sooner than the
other men? They had to have their legs broken.
B. Jesus said he would lay down his life and no one could take it. Read Jesus words in John
10:14-18.
U. "I am the good shepherd; I know my sheep and my sheep know me-- just as the Father knows
me and I know the Father--and I lay down my life for the sheep. I have other sheep that are not
of this sheep pen. I must bring them also. They too will listen to my voice, and there shall be one
flock and one shepherd. The reason my Father loves me is that I lay down my life--only to take it
up again. No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it
down and authority to take it up again. This command I received from my Father."
B. Just before Jesus died, he said, "It is finished." With that, he bowed his head and gave up his
spirit. It was finished because Jesus had fulfilled his mission. He gave up his life and died. He
came to redeem us, and he did.
U. So, youre saying neither the Jews nor the Romans killed Jesus. He wouldnt have died if it
hadnt been the plan.
B. Jesus himself said he could ask his Father to send him a whole army of angels to defend him.
That would have been more than enough to defeat the whole Roman army.
U. Why didnt he?
B. Because he came to die for us. John 3:16 tells us this.
U. "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him
shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the
world, but to save the world through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but
whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of
God's one and only Son.
So are you telling me that Im condemned if I dont believe?
B. Those arent my words, they are Jesus words. I believe them, I hope you do too.
U. Just what am I supposed to be condemned to?
B. The point is that no one needs to be condemned. Thats not why Jesus came to earth. Read
John 12:47-50.
U. For I did not come to judge the world, but to save it. There is a judge for the one who rejects
me and does not accept my words; that very word which I spoke will condemn him at the last
day. For I did not speak of my own accord, but the Father who sent me commanded me what to
say and how to say it. I know that his command leads to eternal life. So whatever I say is just
what the Father has told me to say."
So Jesus words condemn me?
B. Read it again. Gods command leads to eternal life, not condemnation. Rejecting those words
is what condemns a person.
U. Condemns me to what? (To the Audience) How do you answer that?
B. No one is condemned to something good. Jesus was definite that condemnation awaits those
people who reject him. The punishment is eternal. Not anything I want to experience. Jesus said
this in John 5:24-30.
U. For I did not come to judge the world, but to save it. There is a judge for the one who rejects
me and does not accept my words; that very word which I spoke will condemn him at the last
day. For I did not speak of my own accord, but the Father who sent me commanded me what to
say and how to say it. I know that his command leads to eternal life. So whatever I say is just
what the Father has told me to say."
OK, I get it. If I reject Jesus and dont accept his words, I will be condemned but to what?
B. Jesus told about two men in Luke 16:19-31. One was a beggar named Lazarus and the other
was a rich man who had the opportunity to care for Lazarus but who apparently did not. Want to
read it?
U. Not really.
B. Go ahead, its instructive.
U. OK. "There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury
every day. At his gate was laid a beggar named Lazarus, covered with sores and longing to eat
what fell from the rich man's table. Even the dogs came and licked his sores.
Yuck. Didnt anyone feed him?
"The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham's side. The rich
man also died and was buried. In hell, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham
far away, with Lazarus by his side. So he called to him, `Father Abraham, have pity on me and
send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in
this fire.'
"But Abraham replied, `Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while
Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony. And besides all
this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, so that those who want to go from here to
you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.'
"He answered, `Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my father's house, for I have five
brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.'
Are you saying I would be condemned to this place?
B. Im not your judge, but this is what Jesus discussed.
U. But if I believe, what will happen to my parents and grandparents? My parents dont believe
and my grandparents are dead.
B. Did the rich man want his brothers to join him?
U. No, he wanted Lazarus to warn them. Are you suggesting my grandparents are in this hell?
B. No, because Im not the judge and dont know who is there. God is the judge and he is fair.
My job is just to tell you what the Bible says, not to justify or condemn you. The only actions
you can do that will impact anyone elses punishment or reward are to believe and teach them
about Jesus.
U. Lets change the subject. Is there any prophecy which says when the Jews should have been
looking for Jesus, or did God just plan to surprise them?
B. Actually there are, and when Jesus came, secular history says the Jews were anxiously
looking for their savior. Im not sure they correctly interpreted the clues, because you know how
difficult it is to determine what the clue really says. In hindsight we can see it. We can discuss
that next time. But dont forget about the judgment because it is coming and everyone will be
judged. Its your future, dont neglect it.
Heres what we discussed today.
God had a plan but it was kept a mystery until the time was right, then Jesus came.
Prophecy said where Jesus would be born.
He would be born of a virgin as Eve was told and Isaiah prophesied.
His mother was a virgin and his step father honored that condition until after Jesus was
born.
His family would be descendants of Abraham and Jesse, and King David.
He would live in Galilee.
Someone was to precede him and John the Baptist did.
He spoke in parables as prophesied.
Isaiah said he would come with vengeance and be non-violent
Jesus came to die because of the plan.
There were many prophecies about his death, we only mentioned a few.
He redeemed us.
He finished his mission and laid down his life for us.
Those who reject Jesus words are condemned.


Fifth Conversation between B a Believer and U an Unbeliever
Is there any prophecy which says when the Jews should have been looking for
Jesus, or did God just plan to surprise them?
U. Last week we investigated several prophecies in the Old Testament, written hundreds of years
before Jesus birth. They foretold many important events in his life. It looks to me like God
would have told them when he was going to send his son so they would be ready for him and not
just surprise him. Maybe they wouldnt have killed him.
B. Actually, he did. They just didnt seem to pick up on the clues. One prophecy we looked at
last week was that someone was to come just before the Christ. Look again at Malachi 3:1.
U. "See, I will send my messenger, who will prepare the way before me. Then suddenly the Lord
you are seeking will come to his temple; the messenger of the covenant, whom you desire, will
come," says the LORD Almighty.
B. Now look at what John said in John chapter 1:23.
U. John replied in the words of Isaiah the prophet, "I am the voice of one calling in the desert,
`Make straight the way for the Lord.'
Thats close to what Malachi wrote, not Isaiah.
B. Isaiah also said the messenger was coming before the glory of the Lord. Read Isaiah 40:3-5.
U. A voice of one calling: "In the desert prepare the way for the LORD; make straight in the
wilderness a highway for our God. Every valley shall be raised up, every mountain and hill made
low; the rough ground shall become level, the rugged places a plain. And the glory of the LORD
will be revealed, and all mankind together will see it. For the mouth of the LORD has spoken."
That does sound like he would be coming soon after the messenger.
B. Theres another very interesting prophecy about when the Lord, or Christ, would come. Have
you heard of Daniel?
U. Which one, Daniel Webster or Daniel Hawthorne?
B. The Daniel Im referring to was the Hebrew who was taken captive when the Babylonians
destroyed Jerusalem and took many to Babylon. He wrote one of the books in the Bible and he
must have been pretty special since he and some of his friends were selected to be trained as
advisors to the Babylonian King. The advisors were termed wise men.
U. We still use that title although sometimes its intended as a joke.
B. The king was very serious about their job. It had life and death consequences. One night the
king had a dream which disturbed him so much that he couldnt go back to sleep. He couldnt
remember it, so he called his wise men together and told them to tell him what it meant.
U. How were they supposed to know if he couldnt remember?
B. Seems unreasonable to me, but he became so angry that that threatened to kill them and their
families unless they tell him.
U. Thats ridiculous. He would kill them for that! I wouldnt want to work for him.
B. Apparently. Since his wise men couldnt tell him anything about what he
had dreamed, he sent soldiers to round them up. Daniel must still have been
in training, because they hadnt asked him earlier, but when he heard about
the kings demand, he spoke up. He sent word that God could tell King
Nebuchadnezzar the dream. When they took him to the king, Daniel
described the strange statue the king had seen in his sleep. A strange statue
which had a head of gold, chest of silver, stomach and thighs of bronze,
legs of iron and feet of mixed iron and clay. Also in the dream, a rock was
hewn out, but not by human hands, and the rock struck the feet of the statue
and broke the entire statue into dust. Then the rock grew until it filled the
whole earth.
U. That is a strange dream, wonder what the king had for dinner? Im
curious. What did the dream mean, if anything?
B. Good question. After Daniel described the dream, he then explained
what the dream meant. Nebuchadnezzar was the head of gold, and the rest
of the statue pictured kingdoms that were to follow his. The next kingdom
would be the one of silver, then one of bronze, and it would be followed by
the one as strong as iron with brittle toes. Then there is the rock that
destroyed the statue. All of this is contained in the book of Daniel.
U. Whats the point of these kingdoms?
B. Remember, the question is, Was there a prophecy about when Jesus would come? Lets
compare the dream and its explanation to what secular history tells us.
U. When did the king have the dream?
B. This was about 600 BC. Notice that the Babylonian kingdom wasnt going to last and that
inferior kingdoms would follow.
U. How were they inferior?
B. Im not sure what inferior means in this case, but through secular history, we learn that
Babylon fell to the Medes and Persians in about 536 BC. Do you know the phrase handwriting
on the wall?
U. Sure, we often use it to suggest the future outcome is obvious.
B. Did you know that it came from the Bible?
U. No, was it related to what were talking about.
B. After King Nebuchadnezzar died, Daniel continued to live in Babylon although the new king
didnt call him much. Then a strange event happened and he called Daniel to explain it to him.
Either unaware or confident in his defenses, the king and all his nobles were having a drunken
feast while the army of the Medes and Persians were approaching. During the feast, the king saw
a hand, just a hand, writing on the wall and it said MENE, MENE, TEKEL, PARSIN
.The king
didnt know what these words meant and the only person who could tell him was Daniel. This is
what Daniel said,
U.
This is what these words mean: Mene: God has numbered the days of your reign and brought
it to an end. Tekel: You have been weighed on the scales and found wanting. Parsin: Your
kingdom is divided and given to the Medes and Persians."
Then at Belshazzar's command, Daniel was clothed in purple, a gold chain was placed around
his neck, and he was proclaimed the third highest ruler in the kingdom. That very night
Belshazzar, king of the Babylonians, was slain, and Darius the Mede took over the kingdom, at
the age of sixty-two.
So this is the next kingdom?
B. Right. Lets look at
a map. Babylon had
become the major
power in that part of
the world by 600 BC
and remained the ruler
until the city fell. Israel
was just a tiny nation
as shown by the circle.

U. I dont remember
much about that from
history, although I do
remember that
Babylon was in Iraq.
Theres a lot of news
about that area now.
Was Babylon the same
as Bagdad?
B. No, but there was an interesting prophecy about Bagdad. When Nebuchadnezzar was king,
Babylon was one of the seven wonders of the world. The king had built the wonderful Hanging
Gardens there for his queen. But it was an evil city and had taken Israel captive because Israel
had turned away from God to worship idols. Read what the prophet Jerimiah told the Hebrews
before the Babylonians came to conquer Jerusalem.




U. Therefore the LORD Almighty says this: "Because you have not listened to my words, I will
summon all the peoples of the north and my servant Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon," declares
the LORD, "and I will bring them against this land and its inhabitants and against all the
surrounding nations. I will completely destroy them and make them an object of horror and
scorn, and an everlasting ruin. I will banish from them the sounds of joy and gladness, the voices
of bride and bridegroom, the sound of millstones and the light of the lamp. This whole country
will become a desolate wasteland, and these nations will serve the king of Babylon seventy years.
So how much warning did they receive?
B. This wasnt the first, Isaiah had warned them even before Babylon became a great power.
They were still just a city under Assyrian power when he said this in about 700 BC or a hundred
years ahead of time.
U. Then Isaiah said to Hezekiah, "Hear the word of the LORD: The time will surely comewhen
everything in your palace, and all that your fathers have stored up until this day, will be carried
off to Babylon. Nothing will be left, says the LORD. And some of your descendants, your own
flesh and blood, that will be born to you, will be taken away, and they will become eunuchs in
the palace of the king of Babylon." (2Kings 20:12-18)
So thats what happened to Daniel, he was a captive. Was he a eunuch?
B. Dont know as it never says, but there is no mention of his wife or children, so he might have
been. Jeremiah also said this in 25:12.
U. "But when the seventy years are fulfilled, I will punish the king of Babylon and his nation, the
land of the Babylonians, for their guilt," declares the LORD, "and will make it desolate forever.
But Bagdad isnt desolate.
B. But Babylon is. Hussein planned to rebuild it and spent a lot of money doing so, but no one
lives there today.
U. I didnt know that. Interesting. But lets get back to the statue. So, the Medes and Persians
took over from the Babylonians.
B. They were in power for the next two hundred years until 336 BC.
U. Does the Bible tell us?
B. No, the Old Testament writings stopped about 400 BC and this occurred after that. So, we
have to rely on secular history.
In 336 BC, Alexander the Great from Greece began his conquest and conquered the land. By this
time, the Persians had taken over from the Medes and it was known as the Persian Empire, but
was still the same as what they both had. Alexander took only three years to establish this
kingdom. Again, Israel was just a small part of his empire.

U. There must have been other powerful countries. What about China, it existed then.
B. The Old Testament really dealt with Israel and China didnt influence Israel. Perhaps thats
why they werent mentioned.
After the Greeks came the Romans who established an even larger empire. So the legs represent
the Roman Empire. Notice that it says the feet were iron mixed with clay, indicating some
strength but a weakness too. It didnt change metals like it has before, so this was still the Roman
Empire, but weakened. Rome was torn by civil wars throughout much of its early existence.

U. Wasnt there a rock in the dream?
B . Good memory. The rock is really the most interesting part. Its really what tells us when
Jesus was to come. Read what Daniel told the king in 2:34.
U. While you were watching, a rock was cut out, but not by human hands. It struck the statue on
its feet of iron and clay and smashed them. Then the iron, the clay, the bronze, the silver and the
gold were broken to pieces at the same time and became like chaff on a threshing floor in the
summer. The wind swept them away without leaving a trace. But the rock that struck the statue
became a huge mountain and filled the whole earth.
So what kingdom does the rock represent?
B. Here, read what Daniel 2:44 says will happen in that time.
U. And in the days of these kings, the God of heaven shall set up a kingdom, which shall never be
destroyed. The kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break into pieces and
consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.
B. So the explanation of the dream looks like this.
U. I dont remember any major kingdoms after the Roman Empire collapsed. What kingdom is
he talking about? And its supposed to last forever. No kingdom has ever done that.
B. There is one kingdom, the one Jesus said he would build.
U. Wait a minute. You said a couple of weeks ago that Jesus didnt have an earthly kingdom.
B. Thats true, but he said he would build something. One time he asked his disciples who they
thought he was and this was the answer he got as recorded in Matthew 16:16.
U. Simon Peter answered, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God." Jesus replied,
"Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by man, but by my Father
in heaven. And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the
gates of Hades will not overcome it.
He would build his church on a rock. Was that rock Peter? What does it mean by the gates of
Hades wont overcome it?
B. He built it on the confession that Peter made You are the Christ, the Son of the living God,
instead of on the man Peter. Peter was an outstanding man, but still a man. Hades is the abode of
the dead. He is saying His church will outlast death and those in the church will begin a new life
when this one is over. Theyll have that eternal life we talked about last week.
U. When did Christ build his church? Is it the kingdom?
B. Acts 2 tells us about the beginning of the church. It began on a Sunday seven weeks after
Jesus resurrection and during the time of the Roman Empire. On that day, the Holy Spirit filled
the Apostles and they began to speak a message to everyone present. Peters message is
recorded. He told them how they had crucified the Son of God. Read verses 22-24.
Babylon was the Major Power

U. "Men of Israel, listen to this: Jesus of Nazareth was a man accredited by God to you by
miracles, wonders and signs, which God did among you through him, as you yourselves know.
This man was handed over to you by God's set purpose and foreknowledge; and you, with the
help of wicked men, put him to death by nailing him to the cross. But God raised him from the
dead, freeing him from the agony of death, because it was impossible for death to keep its hold
on him.
B Then he reminded them that David had foretold of his being resurrected. Then he concluded
with this.
U. "Therefore let all Israel be assured of this: God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified,
both Lord and Christ."
How did they react to that message?
B. They were upset and convinced that what Peter said was true. In fact, read what they asked
and what he replied.
U. When the people heard this, they were cut to the heart and said to Peter and the other
apostles, "Brothers, what shall we do?" Peter replied, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you,
in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the
Holy Spirit. The promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off--for all whom
the Lord our God will call."
Thats all they had to do to get forgiveness for killing the Son of God?
B. Thats all. Notice that the promise is also for those far away. This is the same thing the
Apostles told everyone to do when they believed in Jesus as the Son of God. Just repent and be
baptized.
U. That seems so simple. Did anyone do that?
B. 3000 men did that day. Acts tells us about the spread of the church and we see that more
people were added to the church every day. It then spread from Jerusalem to the rest of the
world. Just like the prophecy in Daniel said, it now fills the world. Christians are present in most
if not all nations of this earth, and the church has been in existence for about 2000 years and isnt
showing any signs of going away.
U. Youre talking about Christianity, but its not an earthly kingdom.
B. Not earthly, but it is the spiritual kingdom. It fits so nicely. The church began during the days
of the Roman Empire, after civil war had broken out. It didnt conquer armies by its army. It
conquered them by the citizens believing Jesus was the Son of God. Secular history agrees with
the Bibles forecast as to when it began, and remember we said earlier that many historians have
estimated that by the end of the first century there were a million people who believed in Jesus.
The message spread throughout the world. Read what Paul said about the spread of the gospel in
Colossians 1:3-6.
U. We always thank God, the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, when we pray for you, because we
have heard of your faith in Christ Jesus and of the love you have for all the saints-- the faith and
love that spring from the hope that is stored up for you in heaven and that you have already
heard about in the word of truth, the gospel that has come to you. All over the world this gospel
is bearing fruit and growing, just as it has been doing among you since the day you heard it and
understood God's grace in all its truth.
He said it was already all over the world. Is that really true? How could the apostles travel all
over the world?
B. The Apostles left Jerusalem and went into the world preaching, just like Jesus told them to do.
They taught, then others who heard taught, and still others who heard taught, etc. That process
has continued to this day.
Consider what happens when believers teach unbelievers. Starting with the 12 apostles and
consider they teach only 12 the first month and then those twelve teach 12, then those 36 teach
36, the gospel could teach over 6 million in just 20 months. You could stretch it to 20 years
instead of months, it will reach the world rather quickly. In fact, it spread so rapidly over the next
30 years that Paul could make that statement about the known world. They probably hadnt
traveled to the Americas, but they could have covered Europe, Africa and Asia. But the Bible
doesnt record all they did, so we must depend on secular history for some of that information.
U. So, the statue gave the Hebrews an approximate date for Jesus to come. But it wasnt very
precise. How long was it between the civil wars and Jesus birth?
B. The last and possibly the most famous civil war was between Octavian and Marc Anthony
which ended in 40 BC. At least thats the date that history records, although since there have
been several calendar changes since then, the dates are subject to be off by several years. Some
place Jesus birth at anywhere from 8 BC to 1 AD and his death between 25 and 33 AD.
U. That was the war where Cleopatra allied with Marc Anthony and famously committed suicide
by snake bite when they lost. So the Roman Empire had had several kings and had been
fragmented before Jesus. Thats closer than I thought. Are there any other prophecies about when
Jesus would come?
B. Theres another in Daniel thats very interesting, but with the uncertain dates, its hard to be
dogmatic about it. We read earlier where Isaiah and Jerimiah had prophesied about the
Babylonians coming to destroy Jerusalem.
U. Yeah.
B. They also foretold that the Hebrews would serve Babylonia 70 years.
U. At least there was to be an end to the captivity. But 70 years is still a long time, in fact it could
be a lifetime.
B. History places the fall of Jerusalem at about 600 BC although the temple wasnt destroyed
until about 587 BC. The exact dates in this time period are questionable for the same reason as
we talked about before. So, when did the Babylonians free the Hebrews?
U. I dont know, hope you do?
B. The correct answer is, they didnt. Remember Daniel was still serving when the Medes and
Persians conquered the city. But Isaiah 45:11 also said this about 200 years before it happened.
U. "This is what the LORD says-- the Holy One of Israel, and its Maker: Concerning things to
come, do you question me about my children, or give me orders about the work of my hands? It
is I who made the earth and created mankind upon it. My own hands stretched out the heavens; I
marshaled their starry hosts. I will raise up Cyrus in my righteousness: I will make all his ways
straight. He will rebuild my city and set my exiles free, but not for a price or reward, says the
LORD Almighty."
Who was Cyrus?
B. Cyrus was the king of Persia. Daniel lived in Babylon until he became king. In his first year,
he said this as recorded in 2 Chronicles 36:22.
U. In the first year of Cyrus king of Persia, in order to fulfill the word of the LORD spoken by
Jeremiah, the LORD moved the heart of Cyrus king of Persia to make a proclamation throughout
his realm and to put it in writing: "This is what Cyrus king of Persia says: The LORD, the God
of heaven, has given me all the kingdoms of the earth and he has appointed me to build a temple
for him at Jerusalem in Judah. Anyone of his people among you--may the LORD his God be with
him, and let him go up.' "
So when did this happen?
B. History says about 530 BC.
U. Lets see, 587 until 530 was only 57 years. Thats not 70 years. Wait a minute, youre dating
this event from when Jerusalem was captured arent you.
B. Yep, and that was 70 years.
U. So what does all this have to do with when Jesus was coming?
B. Just establishing some dates so we can put the next prophecy into its proper time frame. In
Daniel 9, we read about Daniel praying concerning the temple in Jerusalem. It had been
destroyed, and Daniel wanted it to be rebuilt. While he was praying, the angel Gabriel came and
told him this. Read Daniel 9:24
U. "Seventy `sevens' are decreed for your people and your holy city to finish transgression, to
put an end to sin, to atone for wickedness, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision
and prophecy and to anoint the most holy.
"Know and understand this: From the issuing of the decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem
until the Anointed One, the ruler, comes, there will be seven `sevens,' and sixty-two `sevens.' It
will be rebuilt with streets and a trench, but in times of trouble. After the sixty-two `sevens,' the
Anointed One will be cut off and will have nothing.
7 sevens and 62 sevens, what does that mean? Who is the Anointed One? Wait, you told me,
Christ means anointed one.
B. Lets suppose sevens means seven years. Then 7 + 62 is 69 times seven or 483 years. So if we
can establish when the order to restore and rebuild the temple is given, we can estimate when the
Anointed One, or Christ is to come.
U. OK, when was the order given?
B. In Ezra 4, we read about King Artaxerxes of Persia. Some of the Hebrews had already gone
back to Jerusalem and were trying to rebuild the temple. They had opposition who wrote to King
Artaxerxes. The king wrote back and told them to stop. He investigated and found that Darius
had given the order to rebuild, so he sent another letter saying it should be done as soon as
possible. This is the last decree we can find, and the temple was soon rebuilt. Artaxerxes
assumed power in 465 BC, and died in 454. No one is sure exactly when this order was given,
but say if was just before he died in 455. If we add 483 years to 454, we find the Anointed One
being cut off in 29 AD.
U. And when did Jesus die?
B. His death has been dated anywhere between 25 and 33 AD with most people saying 29 AD..
Pretty close considering the questionable dates.
U. Thats so precise why didnt the Jews figure out that date? Then they wouldnt have killed
Christ. Couldnt they figure out the date, they must have kept track of the time since the king
issued the decree.
B. There is room for confusion. Cyrus issued the first decree in 530 AD so 483 years from that
day would be 47 BC. Maybe since nothing happened around that time, the priests and scribes
decided they didnt really know when the Anointed one would come. I just think it interesting
that the dates come out anywhere close to Jesus time, particularly since the actual dates are so
uncertain.
U. That is close. My mind is spinning a little now. Can you review what we have covered today?
B. We started out to see if there were any prophecies which would say when Jesus the Christ was
to come. This is what we discussed.
Daniels explanation of the kings dream told of four kingdoms which would come
before the rock broke them all into dust.
o Babylonian -
o Medes and Persian which became Persian
o Alexander the Greats
o Roman empire which was weakened by civil wars, the last being about 40 BC.
o Jesus church came during the Roman Empire and has grown to fill the world.
People who believe Jesus was the Son of God probably live in every country and
represent the largest religion in the world. There are no world empires today and
havent been since the Roman Empire.
We also saw that Isaiah predicted at least 200 years before that Babylonia would capture
Jerusalem and carry away temple treasures even while they were just a city under
Assyrian rule.
Jerimiah said the Babylonians would take the Jews away for 70 years.
o That happened about 600 BC
o Babylonia fell in 539 BC
o Cyrus, king of Persia, sent some Jews back to Jerusalem in about 530 BC., or 70
years later.
The angel Gabriel told Daniel that it would be seven sevens and 62 sevens from the
issuing of the decree to rebuild the temple until the Anointed One would be cut off.
o We assumed the sevens meant seven years and calculated that there were 69
sevens or 483 years.
o The decree by Artaxerxes came in about 455 BC so that would mean the Anointed
one should have been cut off in 28 AD.
o Considering the inaccuracies of dating anything during these years, we said that
was very close, since the date of Jesus death is somewhere between 25 and 33
AD.
So what do you think about all this? (To the Audience)
U. Im kind of blown away. I never knew about any of these prophecies and Im wondering why.
B. They dont teach this in universities or high school any more. Its more fashionable to teach
godless evolution.
U. Youre much more likely to find them making fun of the Bible. I wish I could get them to see
this. I would like to hear their comments
B. You and me both.
U. I feel kinda bad about bring up another question.
B. Dont. Lets discuss it. What is it?
U. I just cant conceive of Jesus being raised from the dead. That must have been a trick his
disciples did to make it look that way. Does the Bible address that?
B. It sure does. Well look at that next time.

Sixth Conversation between B a Believer and U an Unbeliever
Was Jesus Really Resurrected or Did His Disciples Just Trick Everyone?
U. You have opened my eyes to the Bible and the prophecies that were made and came true. But,
I just cant conceive of Jesus being raised from the dead. No one was ever raised from the dead.
All the doctors will tell you that. His disciples must have stolen his body so it would look like he
was resurrected. (To the Audience) Does it make any difference anyway?
B. Actually, Jesus was not the first person raised from the dead. There were at least two in the
Old Testament. Elijah and Elisha both raised one each. Jesus himself raised three, then later Peter
raised one and so did Paul. What distinguishes Jesus resurrection is that he said he would be
raised on the third day and he never died again. Everyone else, as far as we know, died again
U. You just named seven. I didnt realize the Bible told of them. But do I really have to believe
that these people and Jesus were raised from the dead?
B. It makes a terrific difference whether Jesus was raised from the dead. But your question is not
original as some in Corinth asked the same question in the first century. They evidently had
trouble believing in resurrection after death. Paul answered them in 1st Corinthians 15:12-19
U. But if it is preached that Christ has been raised from the dead, how can some of you say that
there is no resurrection of the dead? If there is no resurrection of the dead, then not even Christ
has been raised. And if Christ has not been raised, our preaching is useless and so is your faith.
More than that, we are then found to be false witnesses about God, for we have testified about
God that he raised Christ from the dead. But he did not raise him if in fact the dead are not
raised. For if the dead are not raised, then Christ has not been raised either. And if Christ has
not been raised, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins. Then those also who have fallen
asleep in Christ are lost. If only for this life we have hope in Christ, we are to be pitied more
than all men.
Guess this answers my question. If Christ has not been raised, then Christianity is useless.
B. Thats right. Thats why the Bible is so careful in presenting the data for us to evaluate. God
didnt expect us to believe such a difficult concept without providing solid proof.
U. So, what is the proof?
B. Is there any question that Jesus was alive when he was nailed to the cross?
U. No, Ill concede that. But did he really die or did the ignorant people just think he did.
Perhaps Peter or some of the others gave him some drug that just made him look dead.
B. If they did, then they must have been the greatest pharmacists ever because no one has ever
been able to duplicate such a drug. If they had, it would be in great demand as a lot of people
would love to be thought dead so they could escape the mess they made of their lives and start
over again. But there is no such drug.
U. Maybe they just thought he was dead.
B. Lets look at Jesus just before he died. Read from this version which weaves the four gospels
together.
U.
From about noon until three oclock, darkness came over the land. At about three, Jesus cried
in a loud voice, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? which means, My God, my God, why have you
forsaken me?
Later, Jesus knew that everything had been accomplished, so to fulfill scripture he said, I am
thirsty. Someone filled a sponge with vinegar and placed it on a hyssop stem and put it to his
mouth. Jesus drank the vinegar and said, It is finished.
After again calling in a loud voice, Father, I commit my spirit into your hands, Jesus bowed
his head and yielded his spirit.
I guess giving up his spirit is the same as dying, but it doesnt say anyone else knew it. Besides,
he called out in a loud voice, dont dying peoples voice weaken?
B. Usually, but remember what we said last week, Jesus gave up his life. Lets see what
happened right after he died.
U. When the centurion and his soldiers who were watching Jesus saw the earthquake and the
other things that happened, they were very afraid and said, Truly, this was the Son of God, a
righteous man.
Everyone who had come to that place, when they saw what happened, smote their breasts, and
left.
There was an earthquake?
B. Thats what it says. What was the reaction of the people to these things?
U. The centurion thought he was the Son of God and everyone else seemed to be upset. Isnt that
what beating their breast signifies? But what they thought doesnt prove he was dead. Where
were his disciples?
B. His friends and disciples were watching all this take place, but they werent very close.
U. His friends and many of the women who had followed Jesus from Galilee to care for him were
there watching from a distance. Among them were Mary Magdalene, Mary the mother of James
and Joses, and Salome.
Then they were so far away they couldnt be sure he was dead. He just looked dead.
B. Lets look at another witness.
U. Because this was done on the preparation day, the Jews did not want the bodies to remain on
the crosses on the Sabbath, (for that was a high Sabbath) They therefore requested Pilate to
break the victims legs so they would die more quickly. The soldiers went and broke the legs of
the first thief and then the other who was crucified with him. When they came to Jesus, they saw
he was already dead so they didnt break his legs. One of the soldiers had a spear so he pierced
his side which made blood and water come out. The one who saw this bears testimony and his
testimony is true. He knows what he saw was true and says this so you might believe. These
things happened so that the scripture should be fulfilled, None of his bones shall be broken and
another scripture that said, They shall look on him whom they pierced.
So the soldiers thought he was dead, were they trained physicians?
B. Probably not, but they were trained soldiers on the burial detail, so they had probably seen
many die on the cross. So, he stuck Jesus with the spear to make sure and afterwards he was sure.
U. Possibly.
B. Also, they had their orders, break the legs of the men so they would die sooner. If they had
any doubts about Jesus being dead, do you think they wouldnt have broken his legs?
U. Thats a good point. They certainly thought he was dead, but maybe Jesus was just so
exhausted he had passed out and couldnt feel the spear.
B. So lets look at what happened next. Two men asked for body to bury it. Look at Pilates
reaction to his being dead so soon.
U. It was evening when Joseph of Arimathaea boldly requested Pilate to let him take away the
body of Jesus. He was a member of the Sanhedrin who waited for the kingdom of God, but,
because of his fear of the Jews, he was a secret disciple of Jesus and had not consented to his
death. Pilate was surprised that he was already dead, so he summoned the centurion to ask him
if Jesus had died. When the centurion assured him that he was dead, Pilate agreed for him to
take the body.
We find another who thought he was dead.
B. Another trained soldier who probably had seen several dead men and several severely
wounded men. Here are two more people who thought him dead along with their servants who
probably carried the body.
U. He went and took down the body of Jesus. Also with him was Nicodemus, who had first come
to Jesus at night. They brought about seventy five pounds of a mixture of myrrh and aloes, and
taking the body of Jesus, they wound linen cloths along with the spices around him as that was
the Jewish custom for burial. Near where he was crucified was a garden, and in the garden a
new tomb carved out of the rock where no one had been buried. They laid Jesus in the tomb as it
was nearly the end of the Jews preparation day, and the tomb was near. They rolled a stone
over the tombs door.
B. How could they carry the dead body that far, wrap it in cloths, and lay him on a rock surface,
and still not think he was dead?
U. Unless they were in on the conspiracy.
B. Heres another group that certainly werent his disciples. They were the group who wanted
him killed in the first place.
U. On the morning after the day of the preparation, the chief priests and Pharisees gathered
before Pilate and said, Sir, we remember that that deceiver, while he was still alive, said, After
three days I will rise again. Give the command therefore to make the tomb secure until the third
day so his disciples cannot come at night, steal his body and tell the people, He is raised from
the dead. That deception would be worse than the first.
Pilate told them, Take these guards, go and make it as secure as you can.
So they went, and secured the tomb by putting a seal on the stone and posting a guard detail.
They secured the tomb but it doesnt say they saw Jesus body.
B. If you sealed a document in an envelope, why would you do it?
U. To make sure that no one opened the envelope to read the document without my knowing
about it.
B. Would you check to make sure the document was in the envelope before you sealed it?
U. Of course, it would be foolish not to.
B. Do you think the Jews and the guards checked to make sure the body was in the tomb before
they sealed it?
U. It doesnt say they did.
B. You dont think they were foolish people do you?
U. No, they must have checked it.
B. So on the day after he died, they found his body in the tomb and it appeared dead. They
probably looked and maybe even poked it a little.
U. Probably. Ok, I concede, there were a lot of people who thought he was dead.
B. Enough to establish it beyond reasonable doubt?
U. Yeah.
B. The Jews thought so too, because they never claimed he wasnt dead. They knew that
everyone would have laughed at such a claim. They all knew crucified men didnt escape the
cross alive.
U. Are you laughing at me?
B. No, you werent there. Actually, I think your questions and doubts are good.
U. OK, Ive conceded that Jesus was actually dead, but that doesnt prove his disciples didnt
steal his body. Is there any evidence other than the Bible for his being crucified.
B. Again, yes. Here are what four non-believers who lived after Jesus wrote:
Josephus, a Romano - Jewish historian who lived from 37 to 100 AD, called Jesus a wise
teacher who was crucified by Pilate.
Tacitus, a senator and historian of Rome and lived in 56 to 117 AD, wrote that Christ
suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of our
procurators, Pontius Pilatus.
Lucian of Samosata, a satirist who lived 120 -180AD, said the Christians worship a man
to this day who was crucified.
Mara bar Sarapion, a Stoic philosopher from Syria, wrote sometime after 73 AD but
during the first century about the execution of "the wise king" of the Jews.
U. All of them said he was crucified, so lets put that to rest. Jesus died on the cross. But that still
doesnt say he was resurrected and lives now.
B. Exactly. So lets look at the evidence for that. I have divided the evidence into 5 areas.
1. The tomb is empty
2. The disciples believed it
3. The primary persecutor of Christians changed to be one of the primary teachers of
Christianity
4. Jesus brothers didnt believe he was the Christ before he died, but did afterwards.
5. Women were the first to find the tomb empty.
U. Youre the one saying the tomb was empty.
B. The account of the first people to find the empty tomb is this:
U. Very early in the morning of the first day of the week, the women came to the tomb as the day
dawned. They discussed among themselves, Who will roll the stone away from the door of the
tomb? It is very large. When they arrived, they saw that the stone was rolled away. Looking
into the tomb, they did not see his body. They were very confused. Then they saw a young man
sitting on the right side wearing a long white garment and another whose clothing shined. The
women were afraid and bowed their faces toward the ground. The man said, Why do you seek
the living among the dead? He is not here, but is raised. Remember what he said to you when he
was still in Galilee? The Son of man must be delivered into the hands of sinful men, be crucified,
and the third day rise again.
They found the tomb empty, but who rolled the stone away?
B. Read this.
U. When the Sabbath had ended, Mary Magdalene, Mary the mother of James, Joanna, Salome,
and other women bought sweet spices to anoint his body. Before they arrived at the tomb, there
was a great earthquake, and the angel of the Lord descended from heaven, rolled back the stone
from the tombs door, and sat on it. His face was like lightning and his clothing as white as
snow; the guards shook in fear of him and became like dead men.
So youre telling me an angel rolled away the stone?
B. Yes, and the guards saw him do it. It scared them so bad they couldnt move. Finally, they
told the Jewish leaders. Read this.
U. While the women were on their way, some of the guard went into the city and told the chief
priests everything that had happened. After they had assembled with the elders and devised a
plan, they gave the soldiers a large amount of money with these instructions, You will say that
his disciples came at night and stole the body while you slept. If this comes to the governors
attention, we will convince him, and make you safe. So they took the money, and did as they
were told, and this saying is commonly reported among the Jews until this day.
So the Jewish leaders knew what had happened and they came up with a story to explain it away.
This does confirm the tomb was empty. Did they accuse the disciples publically of stealing the
body?
B. Theres no record of that. Seems they resorted to circulating the rumor. Perhaps they knew
they couldnt sustain such an accusation.
U. Where were the disciples while this was taking place?
B. It appears they were all gathered together, confused about Jesus death and probably
wondering what they were going to do now. Its evident they didnt expect him to rise. When the
women returned from the tomb, they didnt believe them. Peter and John went to the tomb to
check out their story. Read this.
U. The women, Mary Magdalene, Joanna, Mary the mother of James, and other women that
were with them, told the eleven and the others with them what they had seen. But to the men,
their words seemed like nonsense and they didnt believe them.
Peter and the other disciple ran together to the tomb and the other disciple outran Peter. He bent
down, looked in and saw the linen clothes lying there. He didnt go in, but Peter, when he
arrived went into the tomb and also saw the linen clothes and the napkin which had been around
Jesus head. The napkin was not lying with the linen clothes but was folded and lying by itself.
The other disciple then went into the tomb and he saw and believed. As yet, they didnt
understand that scripture had said that he must rise from the dead. The disciples then went to
their own home.
They didnt expect him to rise from the dead? When did they start believing he was resurrected?
B. After Jesus appeared to some men. He first appeared to Mary Magdalene, then to two men
walking away from Jerusalem who had heard everything, and then to Peter. Later that night, he
appeared to ten of the eleven apostles and the others who were gathered in a room. Then the next
Sunday, he appeared to the apostle who had not been there the first time, along with the others.
U. That was doubting Thomas. Was that all who saw him?
B. Paul wrote about that question in 1 Corinthians 5:3 through 8.
U. I first delivered to you everything I had received. How Christ died for our sins according to
the scriptures, and that he was buried and rose again the third day according to the scriptures.
After that, he was seen by Peter, then by the twelve. Later, he was seen by more than five
hundred brethren at one time, of whom the greater part remain unto this day, but some are fallen
asleep. After that, he was seen by James and then by all the apostles. Last of all, I also saw him
as one born out of due time.
He appeared to a lot of people. Why didnt he appear to the Jewish leaders so they could see him
and believe.
B. I dont know if they would have believed even then. They had seen Lazarus resurrected from
the dead and didnt believe. They had witnessed either first or second hand many miracles that
he did and they didnt believe.
U. If they saw those things why didnt they believe?
B. I cant be for certain why, but this is what they said.
U. The chief priests and the Pharisees gathered the Sanhedrin and said, What shall we do?
This man does many miracles. If we let him alone, everyone will believe on him, and the Romans
shall come and take away both our place and nation. From that day forward, they worked
together to find a way to put him to death.
They didnt believe because they would lose their place? They were more concerned about that
than the truth?
B. As the old saying goes, power corrupts. Remember how Peter responded during Jesus trial
when someone asked if he knew Jesus?
U. Sure, he said he didnt know him. I think he did that three times.
B. Why do you think he did that?
U. Probably because he was afraid they would arrest him. What do you think?
B. I think youre right. We talked last week about what Peter said on the day the church began.
Do you remember that?
U. He said that the Jews had killed Christ and they should repent and be baptized for the
remission of sins.
B. Does that sound like he was afraid?
U. No, he sounded bold.
B. After this, as Peter and John were going into the temple, Peter healed a man who had been
lame since his birth. That attracted a large crown and as Peter was teaching them, the temple
guard arrested them and put them in jail. The next day they were taken to the council, the same
one who had condemned Jesus to die. Read what happened.
U. When they had brought Peter and John before them, they asked, By what power or by what
name did you do this?
Then Peter, filled with the Holy Spirit, answered, Rulers of the people and elders of Israel, are
we being called to account this day because of the good deed done to the crippled man? Are you
asking by what power he is now made whole? Then, let each of you know, as well as everyone in
Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth whom you crucified and who God raised
from the dead, it is by him that this man stands here before you whole. This is the stone which
was set aside by you builders, which has become the head of the corner. Salvation is not found in
any other; there is no other name under heaven given to men whereby we must be saved.
He didnt sound scared.
B. And the council was angry. Read on.
U. So they commanded that Peter and John be taken outside the council, and then they conferred
among themselves. What shall we do to these men? they asked. Indeed a notable miracle has
been done by them and that is clear to everyone living in Jerusalem. We cannot deny that.
The council didnt try to deny the miracle because they knew they couldnt. So what did they do?
B. Read on, this continues their conversation.
U. To try to stop this teaching from spreading among the people, let us strongly threaten them so
they wont speak to anyone anymore in this name.
Then they called Peter and John and commanded them not to speak at all or teach in the name of
Jesus. But Peter and John answered, Whether it is right in the sight of God to listen to you
more than to God, you judge. We cannot stop speaking the things which we have seen and
heard.
They didnt seem to be afraid; they told them clearly they werent going to stop. Where did they
get such courage? Peter didnt have it before.
B. On another time, Peter and the other apostles were teaching about Jesus the Christ in the
temple when guards came and arrested them. They took them to the council, the same one who
had ordered them to stop teaching about Jesus. Again the council warned them and this is how
they responded.
U. Then Peter and the other apostles answered, We ought to obey God rather than men. The
God of our fathers raised up Jesus after you killed him by hanging him on a tree. God has
exalted him to his own right hand as a Prince and a Savior to give repentance and forgiveness of
sins to Israel. We are his witnesses of these things, as is also the Holy Spirit that God gave to
them who obey him.
When they heard this, they were furious and took counsel to kill them.
B. Do they sound afraid in face of these threats?
U. No.
B. Where do you think they got their courage?
U. Perhaps because they believed they had seen Jesus alive after he died.
B. Exactly right. Lets look at another example. Jesus brothers didnt believe he was the Christ
when he was alive. Look at what they said to him in John 7:2-5.
U. But when the Jewish Feast of Tabernacles was near, Jesus' brothers said to him, "You ought
to leave here and go to Judea, so that your disciples may see the miracles you do. No one who
wants to become a public figure acts in secret. Since you are doing these things, show yourself to
the world." For even his own brothers did not believe in him.
I thought his mother remained a virgin. How did Jesus have brothers?
B. Apparently everyone in his home town knew about his brothers. Read about what they said
while they were trying to figure out how this man they had seen grow up in their small town got
the power to perform miracles. Read Matthew 15:54.
U. Where did this man get this wisdom and these miraculous powers?" they asked. "Isn't this the
carpenter's son? Isn't his mother's name Mary, and aren't his brothers James, Joseph, Simon and
Judas?
Sounds like they knew his family.
B. Two of his brothers, James and Judas, or Jude, wrote books contained in the New Testament.
Paul said Jesus appeared to James. Afterwards, he obviously believed in him because he became
a strong leader in the Jerusalem church. Weve already talked about his appearing to Paul. Did
you know that Paul had once been called Saul and was a leader in trying to stamp out
Christianity?
U. No, I didnt know that.
B. The first Christian who was killed because of his faith was a man named Stephen. After he
spoke to the council, they became so angry that they drug him outside and stoned him to death.
Thats the first account of Paul or Saul. Read Acts 8:1 through 3.
U. And Saul was there, giving approval to his death. On that day a great persecution broke out
against the church at Jerusalem, and all except the apostles were scattered throughout Judea
and Samaria. Godly men buried Stephen and mourned deeply for him. But Saul began to destroy
the church. Going from house to house, he dragged off men and women and put them in prison.
So why did he change?
B. Because when he was on his way to Damascus to arrest Christians to bring to Jerusalem,
Jesus appeared to him. The account is in Acts 9:3.
U. As he neared Damascus on his journey, suddenly a light from heaven flashed around him. He
fell to the ground and heard a voice say to him, "Saul, Saul, why do you persecute me?"
"Who are you, Lord?" Saul asked.
"I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting," he replied. "Now get up and go into the city, and you
will be told what you must do."
What did Jesus tell him after he got to the city?
B. Jesus didnt tell him anything, but he sent a man named Ananias to see him and tell him what
to do. Ananias didnt want to go, so the Lord explained it to him in verses 15 though 19 and then
he went.
U. But the Lord said to Ananias, "Go! This man is my chosen instrument to carry my name
before the Gentiles and their kings and before the people of Israel. I will show him how much he
must suffer for my name."
Then Ananias went to the house and entered it. Placing his hands on Saul, he said, "Brother
Saul, the Lord--Jesus, who appeared to you on the road as you were coming here--has sent me
so that you may see again and be filled with the Holy Spirit." Immediately, something like scales
fell from Saul's eyes, and he could see again. He got up and was baptized, and after taking some
food, he regained his strength.
So, he was baptized. Were his sins forgiven? How was he to suffer?
B. Several years later, Paul told about this day in Acts 22:12.
U. A man named Ananias came to see me. He was a devout observer of the law and highly
respected by all the Jews living there. He stood beside me and said, `Brother Saul, receive your
sight!' And at that very moment I was able to see him.
"Then he said: `The God of our fathers has chosen you to know his will and to see the Righteous
One and to hear words from his mouth. You will be his witness to all men of what you have seen
and heard. And now what are you waiting for? Get up, be baptized and wash your sins away,
calling on his name.'
He said they were washed away. Guess thats the same as being forgiven.
B. There is one more interesting thing to consider about the resurrection. Do you remember who
first learned he was risen?
U. The women and Mary Magdalene when they went to the tomb.
B. Whats interesting about that is that the testimony of women was not considered worthwhile
at that time. Here are two comments made in the Talmud and by Josephus.
U. Any evidence which a woman gives is not valid.
Sooner let the words of the Law be burned than delivered by women.
But dont let the testimony of women be admitted on account of the levity and boldness of their
sex.
Sounds like they didnt think much of a womans opinion. I certainly dont feel like that, I value
my wifes opinion. But if they felt like that, why did they include the womens testimony about
finding the tomb empty and Mary Magdalene seeing Jesus?
B. The only reason I can think of is that it was true testimony. It must have been quite
embarrassing to the apostles that Jesus didnt first appear to them. No man would have made up
that story, it is just too embarrassing. Perhaps, it was to show what Paul later said, There is
neither male nor female, we are all one in Christ Jesus. So, what do you think about Jesus
resurrection?
U. I must admit, I never thought there was such evidence about Jesus resurrection. I see why
you said Christianity was not a baseless religion, but rather, is based on evidence. And I havent
found any inconsistencies in the Bible. But I need some time to think about these things.
B. OK, lets meet same time next week.
U. See you then.
B. Heres what we covered.
Jesus was alive before the cross
He died on the cross
The tomb was empty
Jesus appeared to the women, his disciples, his brother, and over 500 at one time
His disciples lost their fear
His brothers became believers
His first appearance to the women must have been a great embarrassment to the men.
U. (To the Audience)What did we miss?
See you same time next week.

No Reasonable Doubt
About These

Historical Facts
Seventh Conversation between B a Believer and U an Unbeliever
Where Do We Go From Here?
B. What do you think about the Bible after our six sessions?
U. Im confident that the Bible is an amazing book, written by men who claimed
they were writing the words God gave them to write. The only way I can
rationalize all those people writing over such a long time period, dropping clues
about a mystery they didnt understand and wasnt revealed until long after their
death is that God did tell them what to write.
B. At one point, you were concerned that God was different in the two testaments.
Do you still feel that way?
U. There were different times and different kingdoms. I recognize that an earthly
kingdom needs different treatment than a spiritual one. Im not sure why he had to
do it that way, but I remember the principle we discussed; God honors those who
honor him.
B. Good.
U. Im still blown away by how the scientific discoveries agree with the Bible
when you look at them properly. And I can see only one explanation about how the
prophecies concerning Jesus the Christ would be all true. As well as the prophecies
about when he would come.
B. Im glad. So, I conclude that you are a believer in God and in Jesus his Son.
U. Thats right. Now what do I do? I want to follow him, but what should I do?
Peter told those who murdered Christ to repent and be baptized and their sins
would be forgiven. Paul said his sins were washed away when he was baptized. Is
that all there is to it?
B. Thats the start, then theres living as Christ wants us to.
U. That all seems so simple. Isnt there some great thing I must do?
B. The great thing is obeying Christ. Do you understand why Peter told them to
repent and be baptized?
U. No. Guess he just made it up and the rest continued to teach it.
B. Actually, they taught baptism because Jesus told them to teach baptism. After
Jesus was resurrected and shortly before he ascended into heaven, he gave his
disciples a charge which is recorded in Matthew 28 and Mark 16.
U. All power is given to me in heaven and in earth, therefore, you go and teach
all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.
Teach them to observe everything I have commanded you, and lo, I am always with
you even until the end of the world.
He also told them, Go into the entire world, and preach the good news to every
person. Whoever believes and is baptized shall be saved, but whoever doesnt
believe shall be condemned.
Im glad I believe, I dont want to be condemned. So, Peter and the others said
what Jesus told them to.
B. Thats just what they did and its what we do today.
U. Then thats what I want to do. Heres some water, why cant I be baptized?
B. That reminds me of what one man asked as he was being taught. Lets see what
he was told and see why I cant grant that request. Phillip was teaching an
Ethiopian man while they were riding in his chariot. Read what happened in Acts
8:36.
U.
As they traveled along the road, they came to some water and the eunuch said,
"Look, here is water. Why shouldn't I be baptized?" And he gave orders to stop the
chariot. Then both Philip and the eunuch went down into the water and Philip
baptized him.
Im looking at whats different, oh, they both went down into the water. We
certainly cant do that with this. Couldnt Phillip have just poured or sprinkled
some water on his head? That would have been a lot easier.
B. Heres how Paul described baptism and what it means to the Christian.
U. We died to sin; how can we live in it any longer? Or don't you know that all of
us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? We were
therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ
was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new
life.
He said buried with him in baptism. This sounds like we die to sin, and our sins
are buried in the water with us, and then we are raised from the water to a new life
freed from sin. So, if we are buried, then we have to go down into the water and be
covered up.
B. Exactly. Baptism is not translated from the Greek, its just the Greek word
adjusted to our language. Baptisma, the Greek word which became baptism meant
immersion or submersion. Not translating it has caused a lot of confusion about
what baptism really is. Now people use it for sprinkling, pouring and submersion.
U. Submersion sounds like a submarine. It goes down and then comes back up.
Does it make any difference what we do?
B. We know what Jesus told them to do, and we know what they did during the
time of the New Testament. We know what they did is right. Why wouldnt we do
the same thing today? Weve never been told by God to change baptism or to do
anything else to have our sins forgiven.
U. All right, lets do what they did. So when can I be baptized?
B. Right after worship tonight. We have a place here in the building.
U. Great. But what do I have to do after being baptized? Is that all there is to it or
are there a lot of rules to follow?
B. There are only two rules.
U. Only two?
B. Read what Jesus said when a man asked him about the greatest commandment.
(Matt. 22:37)
U. Jesus replied: "Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your
soul and with all your mind. This is the first and greatest commandment. And the
second is like it: Love your neighbor as yourself.

All the Law and the Prophets
hang on these two commandments."
Just these two?
B. Seems very simple, but they are very hard to do 24/7. Havent you heard people
say, Im looking out for number one? Who are they talking about?
U. Themselves, Ive said it many times. Oh, but Jesus didnt include loving myself
in his two commandments, did he. He said Love your neighbor as yourself. But,
if Im to do that, I must love myself too.
B. Absolutely. But now we have to look after the best interests of others, not just
ourselves. And we cant even put ourselves first. A friend of mine uses the
acronym JOY to define his life. Jesus, Others, and Yourself.
U. That sounds good, but I often have a hard time putting others ahead of me.
Maybe Christianity isnt for me. Ill just start sinning again and then what will I
do? Do I have to be baptized every time I sin?
B. God knows we are sinners and will be as long as we are alive. Were human. He
expects us to strive not to sin, but he knows we wont succeed. But here is what
Paul said in Romans 7:21
U. So I find this law at work: When I want to do good, evil is right there with me.
For in my inner being I delight in God's law; but I see another law at work in the
members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a
prisoner of the law of sin at work within my members. What a wretched man I am!
Who will rescue me from this body of death? Thanks be to God--through Jesus
Christ our Lord!
So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God's law, but in the sinful nature, a
slave to the law of sin.
Am I going to have this conflict? Cant I just make up my mind to follow Jesus?
B. Paul did, and he followed Christ for the rest of his life. But making up our
minds doesnt change the fact that we live in a world full of evil and that our own
selfishness causes us to want to put ourselves first and do what we think will give
us pleasure at the moment. Sin is like that, it provides pleasure for the moment, but
usually agony later.
U. Do you mean when we are punished by God eternally?
B. No, I mean in this life. Sin has consequences in this life too. Havent you ever
done anything that came back to bite you later?
U. Sure. So what do I do to get rid of sin?
B. These instructions Paul gave the Colossians are good for us to follow today.
Read Colossians 3:5.
U. Put to death, therefore, whatever belongs to your earthly nature: sexual
immorality, impurity, lust, evil desires and greed, which is idolatry. Because of
these, the wrath of God is coming. You used to walk in these ways, in the life you
once lived. But now you must rid yourselves of all such things as these: anger,
rage, malice, slander, and filthy language from your lips. Do not lie to each other,
since you have taken off your old self with its practices and have put on the new
self, which is being renewed in knowledge in the image of its Creator. Here there is
no Greek or Jew, circumcised or uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave or
free, but Christ is all, and is in all.
If thats the old self, what is the new?
B. Read on about the new self.
U.
Therefore, as God's chosen people, holy and dearly loved, clothe yourselves
with compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness and patience. Bear with each other
and forgive whatever grievances you may have against one another. Forgive as the
Lord forgave you. And over all these virtues put on love, which binds them all
together in perfect unity.
Let the peace of Christ rule in your hearts, since as members of one body you were
called to peace. And be thankful. Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly as you
teach and admonish one another with all wisdom, and as you sing psalms, hymns
and spiritual songs with gratitude in your hearts to God. And whatever you do,
whether in word or deed, do it all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to
God the Father through him.
I thought you said there were only two rules.
B. Look at all these and I think you will find that they all fit into Love God and
love your neighbor.
U. compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness, patience, and forgiveness. I guess
they do fall in the love category, as he says love ties them all together. So, if I put
God first, what do I do?
B. What Paul did. Make up your mind to serve Christ and God. Then do the very
best you can. I say there are two kinds of faith. One brings happiness and the other
brings misery.
U. What do you mean? How do I get the one which brings happiness?
B. The kind of faith which brings misery is the one where the believer
acknowledges Jesus as Christ the son of God, but doesnt have enough faith to put
Christ first. He is continually doing what he knows he shouldnt, and each time
becomes miserable with feelings of guilt.
The faith that brings happiness puts Christ first in our life and we do our best to
live to please him. We will still fail, but we are confident he will forgive us so we
can be happy. When you fail, and you will, then go to God in prayer and ask his
forgiveness. Theres an example of that in Acts 8. A man named Simon sinned and
Peter told him to repent of this wickedness and pray to the Lord.
U. So when I sin, I tell God I am sorry and try not to do that anymore. I may have
to spend a lot of time in prayer.
B. Dont we all. Heres one of my favorite passages. It makes it clear that as long
as I am trying, God will forgive me. Read 1 John 1:5 through 2:2.
U. This is the message we have heard from him and declare to you: God is light; in
him there is no darkness at all. If we claim to have fellowship with him yet walk in
the darkness, we lie and do not live by the truth. But if we walk in the light, as he is
in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus, his Son,
purifies us from all sin.
What does it mean to walk in the light?
B. Notice that God is light, so walking in the light is living according to his
commandments, love God and love our neighbor. And when we do, Jesus blood
continually cleanses us. Make sense?
U. I think so. So let me continue.
If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. If we
confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us
from all unrighteousness. If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a
liar and his word has no place in our lives. My dear children, I write this to you so
that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have one who speaks to the
Father in our defense--Jesus Christ, the Righteous One. He is the atoning sacrifice
for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.
This sounds like we will sin and we must admit it. Who do we confess our sins to?
Is there someone specially designated to hear them?
B. Who does it say will speak to the Father for us?
U. Jesus.
B. Jesus is our mediator. Paul told Timothy that he should pray for everyone
including rulers because God wants everyone to be saved. Read 1 Timothy 2:3-6.
U. This is good, and pleases God our Savior, who wants all men to be saved and to
come to a knowledge of the truth. For there is one God and one mediator between
God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for all men--
Is this why Jesus came to earth, to live as we do so he can understand our
problems?
B. Exactly. He faced every temptation we do, except he didnt give in to it. Thats
what made him the perfect sacrifice.
U. He never sinned at all? Thats hard to believe.
B. That what it says in Hebrews 4:14.
U. Therefore, since we have a great high priest who has gone through the heavens,
Jesus the Son of God, let us hold firmly to the faith we profess. For we do not have
a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but we have one
who has been tempted in every way, just as we are--yet was without sin.
Thats pretty amazing. He was tempted but didnt sin.
B. It is, but its the reason that Jesus could offer his life for our sins. 1 Peter 1:18
says thats why he came in the first place.
U. For you know that it was not with perishable things such as silver or gold that
you were redeemed from the empty way of life handed down to you from your
forefathers, but with the precious blood of Christ, a lamb without blemish or
defect. He was chosen before the creation of the world, but was revealed in these
last times for your sake. Through him you believe in God, who raised him from the
dead and glorified him, and so your faith and hope are in God.
There always seems to be something new when I read the Bible.
B. It will continue to be that way. Ive been reading if for many years, yet every
time I find something I hadnt realized before. Its a fascinating book and is never
dull. I hope you will make time every day to read the Bible and meditate on what it
says.
U. I will. We just said that Jesus was tempted, but he didnt sin. Does that mean
being tempted isnt sin?
B. James explains that to us.
U. When tempted, no one should say, "God is tempting me." For God cannot be
tempted by evil, nor does he tempt anyone; but each one is tempted when, by his
own evil desire, he is dragged away and enticed. Then, after desire has conceived,
it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, gives birth to death.
This seems to say that God will not tempt us to do evil, but its our own desires
that tempt us. If we ignore the temptation and dont continue to think on it, have
we sinned?
B. I think James says it becomes sin when we toss it around in our mind and
instead of thinking about something else, we continue to want the temptation and
when we give in, it is sin.
U. So, Christianity is a mind game?
B. I wouldnt term it a game. Its much too important for that. But our resistance to
sin depends on our mind. Our thoughts will either cause us to resist the temptation
or to give in. That reminds me, after Jesus was baptized, Satan came to tempt him.
Each time, Jesus quoted from the Bible and resisted the temptation. Thats one
reason we need to know what the Bible says. James assures us that Satan will flee
from us if we resist him.
U. Submit yourselves, then, to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.
Come near to God and he will come near to you.
My job is to resist the devil and come near to God.
B. And always remember that Jesus is on our side. Both he and God want us to
succeed in resisting sin and living for God. Read Hebrews 2:14.
U.
Since the children have flesh and blood, he too shared in their humanity so that
by his death he might destroy him who holds the power of death--that is, the devil--
and free those who all their lives were held in slavery by their fear of death. For
surely it is not angels he helps, but Abraham's descendants. For this reason he had
to be made like his brothers in every way, in order that he might become a merciful
and faithful high priest in service to God, and that he might make atonement for
the sins of the people. Because he himself suffered when he was tempted, he is able
to help those who are being tempted.
But Im not a descendant of Abraham. Im a Gentile by their definition.
B. But now there is neither Jew nor Gentile, we are all one in Christ Jesus. Paul
explained that to the Galatian church in 3:6.
U. Consider Abraham: "He believed God, and it was credited to him as
righteousness." Understand, then, that those who believe are children of Abraham.
The Scripture foresaw that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, and announced
the gospel in advance to Abraham: "All nations will be blessed through you." So
those who have faith are blessed along with Abraham, the man of faith.
So I become a Jew, a descendant of Abraham?
B. Not a Jew, a believer in God and his Son. As far as God is concerned we are a
child of Abraham because we believe, and we are blessed though the promise to
Abraham.
U. Theres that promise again. It just keeps coming up.
B. As we noticed, it a keystone to understanding the Bible.
U. Theres something else that bothers me. None of my friends believe in God or
Jesus.
B. Im your friend.
U. I mean the ones I run around with. They arent believers. Wont I need someone
to encourage me along the way or do I just have to do it all by myself?
B. Do you remember what Jesus said he would build?
U. He said church, but whats that, this building?
B. No the church is made up of believers. The word itself in Greek meant a
gathering or assembly of people. Jesus built this church for every believer. On the
day of Pentecost, there were 3000 baptized and they made up the church. In 2:47, it
says there were added to the church daily those who were being saved.
U. Then when I am baptized I will be added to the church. Wow, that must be a lot
of people. So, whats the reason for the church?
B. You were asking about encouragement. The church should be a source of
encouragement for us. Everyone in it, wants everyone else to be pleasing to God.
Read what it says in Hebrews 10:23.
U. Let us hold unswervingly to the hope we profess, for he who promised is
faithful. And let us consider how we may spur one another on toward love and
good deeds. Let us not give up meeting together, as some are in the habit of doing,
but let us encourage one another--and all the more as you see the Day
approaching.
Are all these people in the church? Do they all want me to be saved?
B. Sure they do. (To the audience) Dont you.
U. Do they all love me?
B. Of course they do. (To the audience) Dont you.
U. How can they love me, they dont even know me.
B. The strange thing about loving someone, is you dont have to know them or like
them to love them.
U. Well, I know some people I dont like, and I dont think I love them. What does
it mean to love anyway?
B. Our language uses the word love to cover different kinds of love. The Greek
language in which the New Testament was written uses three different words for
love.
U. Three different kinds of love, Im not sure I understand that.
B. The Greeks had 4 words which define different kinds of love. One word was
eros, from which we get erotic, but its not used in the Bible. Theres another
storge, which relates to family love, but its not used either although there are
several examples of it.
U. It does use the word love doesnt it?
B. There are two more words which are used. Philo means the kind of love
between good friends. The most used word is Agape, which is a commanded love.
Whenever you see a command to love someone or something, the word used is
agape.
U. Then when Jesus said Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all
your soul and with all your mind, and love your neighbor as yourself,. he used the
word agape? So what does agape mean. What if I dont like them, do I still have to
love or agape them?
B. Yes and you can because that is a commanded love, not sexual, not family, not
even a friend kind of love. It means you want the best for the person because you
are interested in their well-being. Remember my friend who uses the acronym JOY
to describe his life? The only way you can consistently put others before yourself
is to decide to do so. You cant depend upon their behavior. Not even mine. Were
all human and we can be unlovable sometimes even when were trying not to be.
Its really hard not to turn JOY into YJO.
U. I get that. Clever, I must remember that. I think it will be hard to try to love my
neighbor as myself. How do I learn to do that?
B. It gets worse.
U. What do you mean, gets worse?
B. Jesus said to we have to love our enemies.
U. Oh no, love my enemies. I can never do that.
B. Sure you can, but you must make up your mind to do so. Read what Jesus said
in Matthew 5:44.
U. You have heard that it was said, `Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.' But
I tell you: Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, that you may
be sons of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the
good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. If you love those who
love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that?
And if you greet only your brothers, what are you doing more than others? Do not
even pagans do that? Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.
Now this is going to be hard. I dont think I can do that, maybe I shouldnt even try
to be a Christian. I thought it would be easy to be a Christian.
B. Being a Christian is not for sissies. Just look at the lives of Paul and the
apostles. They wound up in prison, were beaten, lied about, and endured a host of
other difficult events. They even faced death and finally were killed because of
their faith. We have to be ready to do the same, although being killed for our faith
is unlikely in this country. God expects us to persevere no matter what comes our
way in this life so, he provides us with the strength to persevere. Heres what he
wrote to the Philippians in 4:12.
U. I know what it is to be in need, and I know what it is to have plenty. I have
learned the secret of being content in any and every situation, whether well fed or
hungry, whether living in plenty or in want. I can do everything through him who
gives me strength.
Who is him who gives him strength?
B. If we had read a few verses earlier, we would have seen that the him is the Lord
Jesus. Just as Jesus gave Paul strength, he will give us strength so we can
persevere. Read what he told the Colossians regarding their thinking and desire to
serve Christ. What he told them is just what each of us must do.
U. Since, you have been raised with Christ, set your hearts on things above, where
Christ is seated at the right hand of God. Set your minds on things above, not on
earthly things. For you died, and your life is now hidden with Christ in God. When
Christ, who is your life, appears, then you also will appear with him in glory.
So we set our goals based on heaven and Christ instead of things in this life. He
even says Christ is their life. I want to do that, I want him to be my life, but loving
everyone, even my enemies just sounds too hard to do.
B. It is hard. To love everyone, we must understand what love is. Paul described
love here in 1 Corinthians 13:4.
U. Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It
is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of
wrongs. Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. It always protects,
always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.
That doesnt sound easy to me. It sounds so unselfish.
B. Selfishness is our major source of error. When I look back, my biggest mistakes
and worse offences were caused by my being selfish. From what I see and read, I
think it is the major source of divorce and emotional breakups. Thats why my
friend says happiness comers from JOY.
U. Im going to remember JOY, but am not sure I can live perfectly.
B. You wont, and God knows you wont. My favorite passage is this one because
it gives me such assurance that God loves me and will forgive me as long as I am
trying to serve him. Read 1 John 1:5-10.
U. This is the message we have heard from him and declare to you: God is light; in
him there is no darkness at all. If we claim to have fellowship with him yet walk in
the darkness, we lie and do not live by the truth. But if we walk in the light, as he is
in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus, his Son,
purifies us from all sin.
If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. If we
confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us
from all unrighteousness. If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a
liar and his word has no place in our lives.
He knows we are sinners, yet he forgives us. But does he require us to recognize
our sins? Didnt we talk about confessing our sins to Jesus earlier?
B. Yes, when we read part of this same passage. We must always try to do better,
be sorry we sinned, confess our sins to God and Jesus in prayer, and then he will
forgive us.
U. And we must live by truth. The light means Gods word. It says we have
fellowship with one another. Is that the church?
B. Yes, it is, and having fellowship with one another is very important as John says
here.
U. Anyone who claims to be in the light but hates his brother is still in the
darkness. Whoever loves his brother lives in the light, and there is nothing in him
to make him stumble. But whoever hates his brother is in the darkness and walks
around in the darkness; he does not know where he is going, because the darkness
has blinded him.
Are you saying I must love everyone in the church? Even all of these people?
B. Yep. Not easy, but we must want everyone in the church to be saved and it is
our responsibility to do what we can to help them. If they are sick, we assist them,
if they cry, we cry with them, if they win a prize, we rejoice for them.
U. That sounds like marriage when one vows to care for in good health or bad,
poor or wealthy.
B. Very appropriate, because Jesus looks on his church just like we should look on
our bride. All of us together make up his bride.
U. You mean we are married to Christ?
B. We are his bride in waiting. Paul wrote this to the Ephesians to explain the
marriage relationship by using the analogy of our relationship to Christ and his
relationship to the church.
U. Wives, submit to your husbands as to the Lord. For the husband is the head of
the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior.
Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit to their husbands
in everything.
Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for
her to make her holy, cleansing her by the washing with water through the word,
and to present her to himself as a radiant church, without stain or wrinkle or any
other blemish, but holy and blameless. In this same way, husbands ought to love
their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself. After all, no
one ever hated his own body, but he feeds and cares for it, just as Christ does the
church-- for we are members of his body. "For this reason a man will leave his
father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh."

This is a profound mystery--but I am talking about Christ and the church.
However, each one of you also must love his wife as he loves himself, and the wife
must respect her husband.
Then Christ loves me like I love my bride.
B. Maybe even more. He loved us enough to die for us. We should love our wives
enough to die for them. I like this description, because I have never been asked to
die for anyone like Jesus did. However, I like to think I would die for my wife if
necessary. Actually, it was necessary to die to my selfishness to have a solid
marriage. Love means making her needs rank ahead of mine. Took me awhile to
get that straight.
U. How can we be expected to just get all this loving stuff right after we are
baptized?
B. Paul warns us about the conflict between our selfish desires and following
Jesus. He tells us to live by the Spirit in Galatians 5:16.
U. If we live by the Spirit you will not gratify the desires of the sinful nature. For
the sinful nature desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is
contrary to the sinful nature. They are in conflict with each other, so that you do
not do what you want.
So I must face this conflict. Does he identify the desires of the sinful nature? How
am I to know?
B. The simple answer to just examine what you want to do. Does it display love for
others or something selfish for you. But read on.
U.
The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and
debauchery; idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish
ambition, dissensions, factions and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn
you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of
God.
Hes pretty plain about that. I am guilty of some of those, so how do I go about
changing.
B. He answers that too.
U. But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness,
faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. Those
who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the sinful nature with its passions and
desires. Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit. Let us not
become conceited, provoking and envying each other.
Am I expected to do all this at once?
B. Peters writings indicate that it may be a gradual process. We start with our
believing, our repentance, and our baptism, all of which demonstrates our faith in
God and Jesus and our desire to serve him. Then we add other qualities as we grow
in our faith. Read 1 Peter 1:5
U. For this very reason, make every effort to add to your faith goodness; and to
goodness, knowledge; and to knowledge, self-control; and to self-control,
perseverance; and to perseverance, godliness; and to godliness, brotherly
kindness; and to brotherly kindness, love. For if you possess these qualities in
increasing measure, they will keep you from being ineffective and unproductive in
your knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. But if anyone does not have them, he is
nearsighted and blind, and has forgotten that he has been cleansed from his past
sins.
Then a gradual process is acceptable. Maybe I can do that.
B. Of course you can, just make up your mind to put Jesus first and the other
things will fall in place. Just like you have come to believe by examining the Bible,
you need to make Bible reading a daily part of your life.
U. Ill try. Where do I start?
B. I suggest you start with the New Testament and remember how it is divided.
The first 4 books tell the life of Jesus, and Acts is about how the church grew as
the good news was spread throughout the world. The next 21 books are letters
written to Christians to tell them how to live, so they are very important. The final
book is difficult to understand in some parts but it relays the message that although
this is an evil world and evil is a powerful enemy to God, God will win and
therefore we will win. I will give you a chronological Bible which is divided up
into daily readings. Following it, you will cover the New Testament in about 2
months, so you can read it through it 4 times in less than a year. However, Ive
known people who when they first got one they read it through the first night. I
recommend daily readings in the morning so you can think about what you read all
day.
U. Ok. Im ready to start.
(To the audience) What else would you tell a new convert?
B. Some of you have asked for additional information. This class is loosely based
on my book, The Bible, Truth of Lies? Its available for digital devices from
Amazon or I can send you a pdf file at no charge. Just email me and my email is in
the directory.
We thank you for being here and your comments. Weve had fun, hope you have
too.