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from the Mechanical department...

Exit Guide vanes of Gas Turbines


Posted by Izhar on 19 July, 2014 - 4:24 pm
Hello
I have a question. Inlet Guide vanes are used to regulate the air flow into the gas turbine, and introduce a swirl to
control the mach number. But what exactly is the function of EGVs?
1) Its function is to eliminate the swirl in the air at the exit of compressor? or is there any other special function as
well.
2) If it eliminates the swirl that means in case of high spread, any thermocouple showing high temperature (above
alarm value) means that we have to check the particular combustion chamber directly behind that particular
thermocouple showing high temp alarm. The concept of swirl will finish?
3) Currently I have a software which shows the number of chambers to be checked in case of high spread. It asks the
frame of GT, the load at which the spread exists. After we put the data it gives the location of chambers against the
Thermocouples by incorporating the swirl effect. Swirl is Maximum at zero load while minimumat Full load, why is it
so?
4) In this case where we have EGVs installed, do we have to take into account the swirl effect? I mean should I trust
that software.
Thanks
--
Izhar
Posted by CSA on 22 July, 2014 - 7:36 am
Izhar,
The description below presumes your questions refer to a GE-design heavy duty gas turbine.
1) IGVs do not introduce exhaust swirl; they control the air flow into the axial compressor. When the air leaves the
axial compressor it makes a 180 degree turn as it enters the can annular combustors where it makes another 180
degree turn as it enters the combustion liners where it is mixed with fuel for combustion and to cool and dilute the
hot gases of combustion.
Swirl is introduced as the hot gases pass through the turbine section.
IGVs are variable (some are only open or closed, while others are modulated to control air flow more precisely in
response to one of several references (through a min select gate)), and EGVs are not variable, but are fixed. EGVs
do help reduce the swirl of the air leaving the compressor, but because of the path the air takes to get into and
through the combustors and the turbine the EGVs can't help reduce swirl at the exhaust.
2) Exhaust swirl is the result of reduced gas flows through the turbine section that introduce a slight offset between
the temperatures of individual combustors and the temperatures measured by the exhaust thermocouples. It
surprises most people to learn that there is very little mixing of exhaust gases as they pass through the turbine
section (which is rotating) and so combustors having hotter or colder temperatures entering the turbine can be
traced fromexhaust temperatures if the swirl angle is known.
3) Swirl is less at high load because the air flow is higher at higher load when modulated IGVs are more open. The
pressure of the hot gases is also higher at higher loads when modulated IGVs are more open and this also results in
less swirl as the hot gases pass through the turbine section.
4) No; EGVs do not affect exhaust swirl.
If you're having high exhaust temperature spreads, please describe the turbine (Frame size; type of combustor:
conventional (diffusion flame) or DLN)) and the fuel being burned when the spread is high (sometimes on multi-fuel
machines the spread is high on one fuel and not high when burning the other fuel). It is possible to help determine--
approximately--which combustor(s) are experiencing problems without the the use of a swirl angle calculator which
is only a tool for approximating swirl angle, not for precisely pinpointing combustors based on load and Frame
type. Air flow through a GE-design heavy duty gas turbine can vary depending on how the IGVs are being
controlled, if Inlet Bleed Heat is in service, cleanliness of the axial compressor, cleanliness of the inlet air filters,
back-pressure of the exhaust, etc.
And, not all exhaust temperature spread problems are fuel nozzle-related--some are caused by cracked liners or
improper installation of or failing transition piece side seals, or failed hula skirt seals--so just swapping fuel nozzles
may not resolve the exhaust temperature spread.
Exhaust swirl is not caused by IGVs or EGVs; it's the result of air flow (which is also a function of air pressure) as
hot gases pass through the turbine section. Higher air flows result in less swirl--as the calculator correctly shows;
and lower air flows result in higher swirl. Seems counter-intuitive, but that's how it works in GE-design heavy duty
gas turbines. Since modulated IGVs affect air flow, IGV position affects exhaust swirl angle. But EGVs are fixed
and don't affect exhaust swirl since swirl is a function of gas flow through the turbine section--and the gas flowing
through the turbine section has taken two reversals after it leaves the axial compressor before it enters the
combustion liners and then the turbine section.
Hope this helps!
Posted by fluidflow on 22 July, 2014 - 4:19 pm
What to say, CSA has left nothing to add.
If I had initialized the answer I would have used, much more technical jargons. the answer truly shows CSA should
be listened, loved and respected.
"you understand physics, if you could teach it to your grandmom"
Einstein
Posted by Izhar on 23 July, 2014 - 2:59 pm
Thank you so much for such a wonderful reply.
Currently we are not facing high spread problem, but nevertheless like to know how to find the location of
chamber which is creating the problem. We have a Frame 9E gas turbine, fuel is Gas, NON-DLN reverse flow
type combustor. We are facing high Exhaust temperature issue(at a load of 111 MW). How can we find the swirl
angle and location of combustion chambers in case of high spread issue at a particular load.
Looking forward for your reply.
Thanks
1 out of 1 members thought this post was helpful...
Posted by fluidflow on 24 July, 2014 - 10:46 pm
Hello There,
Swirl angle is the angle between measured representative exhaust gas temperatures(TTXM), at varying loads
and the known combustion source location. However, Swirl angle is not a rigidly controlled parameter and may
vary between units. So, it should only be treated as a tool.
Using map and graph for calculating swirl :
a) locate the cold region by looking at the exhaust temp. data.
b) Select the cold thermocouple and its corresponding location on the map.
c) From the clockwise location of the cold thermocouple back trace(clockwise on the map) the amount of swirl
angle to identify the location of probable cause.
Troubleshooting using inferences
* Hot streak (signifies excess fuel not enough air) Probable solution/cause
- Inspect liners for plugged holes
- check fuel nozzle assembly
* Cold streak (signifies excess air or fuel deficiency)
- Inspect fuel nozzles, orifices may be giving trouble
- check valves (NRV)
- cross fire tube leaks
- transition piece seals and Hula skirt for proper installation and leak (this very symptom is usually visible after a
major overhaul and henceforth plant operators needs to inspect initial temp. profile very carefully so that
problem is treated on the spot.)
Allowable spread
Based on exhaust temp. and CPD on base load operation spread is usually between 40 to 55.
Having said that, the calculation still remains unanswered. But since I can not upload Excel sheet on the site.
therefore I will suggest you that you should refer to www.ccj-online.comand search for a gentleman named
J .C.Rawls and look for the paper which he presented on this very subject at 2013 frame VI Users Conference,
there you will find an excel sheet explaining the concept of swirl and associated calculation. However, to grasp
the calculation you need to patiently apply the method described there on a situation of your own. Rest assured,
this helps a lot. But, if you still find it difficult then I am at your service 24*6.
Right now I am calculating (recalculating) the Critical speed for a Frame V turbine over which CSA has raised
some doubts. There has to be some platform where we all can share our calculation, and results.
I you have any idea please do reply.
I hope this will be of some help to you
Regards,
fluidflow
Posted by izhar on 26 July, 2014 - 2:00 pm
Fluid flow
Indeed a very interesting website recommended by you. I have seen some of the presentation by J .C Rawls,
great they are. I am also studying the excel sheet and the swirl angle presentation and will make my own excel
sheet on frame 9E as well. I have one question:
1) Where from can I get the graph of load and swirl angle ? of course there must be a load vs swirl angle
graph for Frame 9E.
2) Secondly, can you please share your study on Critical speed of Frame 6. I will try to give my inputs plus it
will be a great learning opportunity. Please share your study.
Thanks again and special thanks to CSA, you are beauty of this forum.
B.R
Izhar
Posted by fluidflow on 1 August, 2014 - 2:02 pm
Dear Izhar,
I regret to respond after such a long pause.
I was busy with some mundane affairs. Nevertheless, I am glad to hear that you found my suggested site
useful. For sharing my calculations regarding critical speeds, I am forwarding you my email Id,
(anoopmnnit09@gmail.com). kindly reply back on it so that I can email you my calculations.
Regards,
fluidflow
Posted by izhar on 3 August, 2014 - 3:41 am
Thanks fluid flow. I have sent you an email.
Posted by Izhar on 11 August, 2014 - 6:09 am
>Thanks fluid flow. I have sent you an email.
Hello there
J ust wanted to update about the problem I was facing. As I mentioned earlier we were facing problem
with our GT (high exhaust temperature). Recently we carried out combustion inspection of our Gas
Turbine and found out that the cross fire tube connecting chamber 03 and chamber 04 was almost melted
(badly damaged). Transition piece 03 was also not okay, it was having heavy black spots unlike others.
Floating seals of many of the TPs were found broken out.
We successfully changed all the parts of our Gas Turbine. What can be the major cause of high
temperature at a specific nozzle? Most of the NRVs were passing (both Fuel and purge air), all were
replaced with new one. After startup no high temperature issue persists.
Hope you to hear fromyou guys. Fluidflow pls check your email.
Thanks
--
Izhar
Posted by CSA on 11 August, 2014 - 10:36 am
Izhar,
Thanks for the feedback!
We don't know what kind of combustion systemis used on the turbine (conventional, diffusion flame; or
DLN-I)--not that it makes a lot of difference, but it is helpful to know. If the unit has DLN-I
combustors it could be that dynamic pressure oscillations in the combustion system have caused
increased wear which has resulted in ill-fitting components and the type of damage you are reporting.
It's not clear if the machine is new, or has been in service for some time. So, if the unit has been in
service for some time, and if the unit has gone through one or maintenance outages in the past, then the
assembly practices used could be suspect. Or, if the parts used for re-assembly were non-OEM parts,
they could be suspect (quality; dimensions).
These are the most usual reasons for the type of damage you reported. We don't know how long the
combustion components had been in service before the damage was discovered, which could also have
some impact. We don't know if the parts were re-installed after a previous outage and what the
condition of the parts were when re-installed. There's just a lot we don't know.
We don't know how many emergency trips the turbine has experienced since the last maintenance
outage, or on this set of combustion components. Trips can be very injurious in their own right.
But, re-assembly practices and part condition/quality are two of the most common problems. If the unit
has DLN-I combustors, when was the last time the unit was tuned? Is the unit operated in Premix
Steady State combustion mode during normal operation, or is it operated in Extended Lean-Lean and/or
Lean-Lean mode during normal operation? These can also impact parts life; GE estimates one hour of
Extended Lean-Lean operation is equivalent to ten (10) hours or Premix Steady-State operation. And,
it's also known that long-term Lean-Lean operation can also result in premature combustion liner wear
and even accelerated damage. (GE is still studying the effects of long-termoperation of DLN-I
combustion systems in Primary and Lean-Lean combustion modes.)
Posted by fluidflow on 12 August, 2014 - 7:46 pm
Hello There,
Based on my experience with GT, I will try to answer your questions. However I shall first start from
very basics as, I feel dutybound to share as much as I can.
Part A covers basics regarding combustion and parts played by individual parts with reference to your
turbine.
Part B Development Of a theory to tackle various problems
Part C Providing explanation at each point if required.
so lets start,
yours is GE MS9001E. Correct!
It was the worlds first gas turbine larger than 100MW. Yours' a NoN DLN m/c with reverse flow
combustors. ONLY TWO COMBUSTION LINER DIA. ARE USED BY GE. 268mm FOR MS
3000, 5000, AND 6000 WHILE 358mm FOR MS7000 AND MS 9000.
The number of combustors is proportional to machine air flow divided by pressure ratio. Therefore you
have 14 combustors (check it fromyour data sheet).
In your machine we have a reverse flow multiple combustion system which is a result of years of
intensive development and field success. The firing temperature in your Turbine has to be around 1000-
1100C. I believe we are dealing with Base load operation with peak load period. Kindly acknowledge
the presented information and let us know that we are on the right path.
Kindly tell me what you do with the exhaust flue gases. One more thing Izhar, I am not an expert of the
subject like CSA, and I believe experts shall give there valuable comments and guidance.
Regards
fluid flow
Posted by izhar on 13 August, 2014 - 2:15 pm
Thanks again CSA/Fluidflow. I acknowledge all the details of the turbine and yes we on the right
path. Our is a 217 MW combined cycle powerplant, flue gases are used to generate the steam for
steam turbine.
Our plant was commissioned in 2008. We had our HGPI in 2013 in March(we replaced all the CI
parts). Then we has a rotor earth fault in the generator of Gas Turbine, our turbine was out for
approximately 03 long months. Therefore this year the CI was carried out in August rather than in
March. And the refurbishment of parts is done by non OEM.
Other than this all the details provided by fluidflow is correct.
Hope to have expert opinion of you guys.
Thanks
--
Izhar
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