Bernie

With t;~elong-anticipated announcement

of his run for governor, Burlington's Mayor
Bernie Sanders says he is taking on more
than Governor Madeleine Kunin and Lt.
Governor PeterSmith for the state's highest
office. In an interview conducted shortly
after his "official" announcement on the
Statehouse lawn, Sanders spoke with the
Vanguard Press editorial board-Editor
Joshua Mamis, Associate Editor Gail E.
Hudson and Co-Publisher Nat Winthrop-
about his reasons for challenging an in-
cumbent Democrat during the only time
in the history of Vermont that the Demo-
crats control the State House.
Sanders believes his candidacy will be
the cutting edgeof anew, grassroots political
movement in this country. It will prove to
the disenfranchised voters-the POOrj the
working class-that there is an alternative
Sanders'
quest for a
grassroots
revolution
to politics as usual with the Democrats
and Republicans.
During our interview, Sanders also de-
fended his record on environmental and
women's issues. The substance of that de-
bate has been omitted from the following
interview for lack of space. However, we will
be returning to these subjects and more in
our coverage of the gubernatorial race in
the next few months.
Vanguard: Running against arelatively
popular Democrat inatraditionally Repub-
licanstate, theodds areagainst youwinning.
Why are you running for governor?
Sanders: ....Wearelooking at aworldwhere
the two super powers are poised against
each other with nuclear weapons. We're
looking at aworld where hundreds of
millionsof peoplearestarving todeath while
other people have hundreds of millions of
dollars. I think that injust talking about
thephenomenon of war itself, it's clear that
unless there is aradical rethinking of the
whole concept of politics, there is going to
beanuclear war.... World War I II could
destroy the planet ....
There's got to be aradical rethinking of
how we relate to other nations, and there's
got to be aradical rethinking of the whole
political process .... Itis very clear to me
that almost all of the leaders in the
Republican and Democratic parties are
running away from what the real issues are.
Probably ifI look back and ask, 'What
are the results that I'm most proud of'1 '. . .
There aremany things. But after all issaid
and done, what I'm most proud of is thal
wehave doubled the voter turnout: that
we've opened the doors of political activity
continued on page 6"
SANDERS:
continued from page 1
to far more
peoplethan waseverthecase
before... .'
The only wayyou regoing
to have a decent humane
society is ifpeople stand up
for themselves and fight for
it .... The overwhelming ma-
jority of poor people don't
vote, ... They've given up on
the process. The most im
portant thing that wecan
do is to bring people out
who say, 'Hey, this is my
state, my country. This is
the world I want to protect
and livein, and I'mgoing
to have an impact on it:
When you [say] that Gov-
ernor Kunin is popular, I
think the popularity is not
very deep. In other words,
she does very well ontele-
vision. She has an excellent
press secretary. But I think
whenyoulook at whether or
not people areexcited and
think thegovernor isfighting
the fights that haveto be
fought, I honestly don't
believethat's the case.
I wouldsaythatifI become
governor, you can measure
my success or failure on how
many new people-which in-
cludes young people, poor
people, working people-are
involved in one way or an-
other inthepolitical process.
Vanguard: Youtalk alot
about global issues. Why
are you running for a state-
wide officeinstead of US
Congress?
Sanders: Obviously, it goes
without saying that weneed
the best people wecan get
inthe Congress and inthe
Senate and to bepresident
of the United States. I have
discovered. and I believe
this frommy heart, that
you're not going to turn this
country around until you
have a very strong grass-
roots movement.
Believeit or not, if you
haddozensofgovernorswho
wererepresenting their
people. ..and these dozens of
governors walked into Ron-
ald Reagan's officeand said,
'Ron, forget even about the
morality of destroying the
government of Nicaragua,
themorality of building your
nuclear weapons or your
Star Wars.-Wehavepeople
back home,theelderlypeople
we've met who can't read,
kids howwant togotocollege
but arenolonger able to get
student loans. Wehavethe
cities and towns that are
getting cut off fromfederal
revenue sharing ...:
[Governors need to) stand
up and fight for asane na-
tional policy, which doesn't
talk about $300 billion for
themilitary, atrillion dollars
for Star Wars, $100 million
to destroy Nicaragua. [If
governors] urge and work
with the people to say, 'Hey,
we have an insane system
of priorities, people,' I think
you're going to find awhole
lot of support back home....
'Ibrally thepeople, tochange
the consciousness of the
people, !!'Wernors will play
amore lDlpOrtant rolethan
United States senators.
Vanguard: Still, it sounds
likethat is what should be
the roleof the cnngressional
delegation.
SaDder.: Yesand no....
Generallyspeaking, senators,
bythenature of theanimal-
and I don't fault them for
this-spend an enormous
amount of time inWaah-
ington. They're debating
they're fighting for this bill
or that ODe.Who is back
continued on page 8"
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SANDERS:
-econtinued from page 6
homerallying? ...Ifyouhave
marches onWashington that
governors areleading. where
governors are saying, 'We
do not want our kids being
killed inNicaragua. Stop
this insanity: that's the way
you're going to turn Wash-
ington around.
Vanguud:Doyouthink
that's what Vermonters want
from you as a governor?
Sanders: I'll tell you that
in six months .... One of the
debates that we'vehad in
thepast inBurlington isthe
conservatives saying, 'Hey,
Bernie. Don't worry so much
about the national scene,
the international scene. pay
attention to what happens
hereinBurlington: So what
we f ind out is that we lose a
million dollars in revenue
sharing inorder to fund Star
Wars. Weloseahalf million
dollars for a Dumber of hous-
ingprograms inorder tofund
thedestructionofNicaragua.
Yo u cannot ignore themoun-
tains on the national and
international scene. ...
That doesnot mean tosay
that the governor does not
spend the hulk of his or her
time paying attention to
what's happening inthestate.
But not to take aleadership
role in turning around the
insane national priorities of
the day is an ahsolute ab-
dication of responsibility.
Vanguard: And you think
that Governor Sanders in
the small state of Vermont
would have an impact on
national policy, more than
Congressman Sanders?
Sanders: Absolutely. Let's
look at the city of Burl-
ington ....Do you think that
ifwehadnot fought Reagan's
policiesonNicaragua, helped
organize ashipment ofgoods
to Burlington's sister city,
do you think that that has
not had animpact onthe
consciousness of the people
of the state of Vermont? ..!
think that if a governor is
abletocreate astrong feeling
that the people inat least
one state are sick and tired
withthedrift toward nuclear
war [then that will] have an
impact on our neighbors in
NewHampshire, Maesachu-
setts and NewYork.
IfI'm elected governor
and you think this won't
have national significance
you are very mistaken. The
whole structure of the po-
litical system today is be-
tween the Democratic and
Republican parties. The
Democrats are bad and the
Republicans are worse in
many instances lalthough
there are many exceptions
to that scenario). Wecan
show there is athird option,
where you can have indepen-
dence, where you can have
a governor and members of
the legislature-and we'll
be running candidates for
the legislature-speaking
out for therights of working
people, poor people for sane
national priorities. for peace.
This is going to scare the
hell out of the political
structure of this country.
Their hope is that people
remain apathetic. remain
resigned. The Democratic
party will bemaintaming
the belief that, 'Gee, there
really is no option. The best
you can get is Governor
Kunin, and you should be
happy for that:
Vanguard: How do you
convince your borderline
supporters, the middle-of-
the-road Democrats or mod-
erate progressive-Demo-
crats, that a vote for you
isn't a vote for Lieutenant
Governor Peter Smith?
Sanders: First of all, the
media, in general, has vastly
overestimated the number
of liberals who have been
tortured by this question.
The fact of thematter isthat
among upper-class liberals
we are not going to do well.
I think the governor will
get alot of support from
those people. ...
(But] what I think ordinary
Vermonters want is theright
and the freedom to vote for
the candidate who best re-
flects their interests .... So
let's give up onvoting for
the lesser of two evils. All I
ask is that people don't vote
for somebody who they
don't feel that good about
over someone they believe
in. That's the wasted vote.
Vanguard: Youmade the
analogy between what you
did in Burlington in 1981
and what you think you can
do now in the state. Don't
you think you need to look
at the wall you ran into
against the Board of Alder-
men and the city commis-
sions and what you might
beup against in the State
House, facing much greater
opposition?
Sanders: Number one, we
really can't predict how the
legislature will react.
Vanguard: Youcan look
at howthey've reacted to
you in the past.
Sanders: Ifyou want to
look at howthey [acted] last
month what you'll find is
the legislature, by atwo-to-
one vote in the House and a
four-to-onevotein theSenate,
supported what may con-
stitute some of the most
radical changes intax policy
in the history of Vermont ....
Obviously, I can't predict
how I'll work with the legi-
slature.But ... it would have
been inappropriate for me
not to run for mayor in 1981
because I would have op-
position from the Board of
Aldermen. I t would bein-
appropriate for me not to
run for governor because I
may have opposition in the
, legislature.
I will be as clear as I can
about what I believe to be
the major issues facing the
state. In fact, I'll put it on
abig blackboard. I'll say,
'Number one: property tax
reform. We're going to move
onit. And we're going to
solve it within the next
month ....Number two: utility
rates. The structure of the
Public Service Board is go-
ing to represent the rate-
payers and not the wealthy
corporations ...."
Vanguard: What lessons
did you learn from your
battles with the legislature?
Sanders: One of the nice
things about thelegislature,
it is not ahardened body of
people. Some people don't
havethevaguest ideaof what
is going on, some are very
sharp. But I think that you
can still sit down and talk
topeopleandconvince people
that what you're doing is
right. And I don't think I
havedonethatenoughinthe
past, tobehonest with you....
And the second part is I've
learned that youget what you
want by being persistent ....
Vanguard: What will hap-
pen to Burlington's Pro-
gressive Coalition after the
campaign?
Sanders: 'IWopoints.
Number one: I have felt for
many years for us to be sue-
cessful in Burlington we are
going to have to spread the
movement out beyond the
city of Burlington. Weneed
more support statewide. ...
Clearly what I have been
very upset about is getting
things passed inBurlington
that were not being passed
inMontpelier. What happens
when[youhave] aprogressive
city administration and a
conservative state govern-
ment? That's areal problem.
Ultimately, wearenot going
tobesuccessful inBurlington
unless there are changes
statewide.
Number two: Wehave
raised enormous issues in
terms of what acity can do
and we are going to continue
doing that. Weare very ex-
cited about the agenda we're
working on now. But clearly,
there have got to beradical
changes in Montpelier if we
are to do what weneed to do
in Burlington and what has
to bedone all around the
state .