Steam Turbine Axial Shift - Topic

9/9/2014 steam turbine axial shift - Topic
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Manikantan
posted 06 October 2008 06:19 PM
our steam turbine capacity is 250 mw. axial shift trip setting is +
or - 0.8 mm. axial shift maintains -0.75 mm at full load. thrust
bearing front temperature also rises sharply. why?
manikantan
Manikantan M P
Posts: 10 | Location: Neyveli | Registered: 05 October 2008
arie
mol
posted 07 October 2008 04:02 AM Hide Post
Maybe this is going ?)
http://maintenanceforums.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/7161085912/m/3271014473
Posts: 312 | Location: Wierden, Netherlands | Registered: 06 March
2006
Vibmaster
Is this a new turbine? Have you been trending axial shift? Axial shift
increase indicates loss of babbit on thrust bearing. If it is an old
turbine, seems, change of thrust pads is on the cards.
Posts: 1429 | Location: INDIA | Registered: 14 March 2007
Manikantan
Dear sir,
It is a new turbine. commissioned in the year 2002 december.
During prolonged full load operation at 250MW axial shifts moves
towards negative side and thrust bearing front
temperature also rises.
Manikantan M P
Vibmaster
quote:
Originally posted by Manikantan:
our steam turbine capacity is 250 mw. axial shift trip
setting is + or - 0.8 mm. axial shift maintains -0.75 mm
at full load. thrust bearing front temperature also rises
sharply. why?
manikantan
May be either the probes for thrust and surge pads have been
interchanged. Or it is a calibration problem. By the way, what are
the thrust and surge pads temp on full load?
Regards
Irshad
Manikantan
posted 11 October 2008 12:27 PM Hide Post
Dear sir,
please find attachement reagrding turbine.
Manikantan M P
Steam_Turbine_Axial_shift.doc (21 Kb, 153 downloads) word
Vibmaster
quote:
Originally posted by Manikantan:
Dear sir,
please find attachement reagrding turbine.
With the bearing configuration you have mentioned, I am unable to
visualise the configuration of the turbine, i.e, how the different
turbines are connected and how you have numbered the bearings?
Pl. post one sketch showing relative positions of the turbine with
bearings.
Regards
Akhtar
ganesh,
v.j
Dear Manikantan,
I used to work in KWU/SIEMENS type of steam turbine manufactured
by BHEL as commissioning engineer.
One word of advice before we start discussing. Never bypass the axial
shift trip!
Few questions:
1. Do you have one or multiple probes to measure axial shift?
2. Do you have electric trip alone? Or, do you have mechanical trip
also?
3. Do you have Automatic Turbine Tester (ATT)? If you have, did you
test the axial shift protection on line?
4. Regardless of the absolute value, does your delta in axial shift
reading (at barring gear and at rated speed/load) is same? For
example, in 200/210/250/500 MW turbines we used to see a delta of
-0.2 mm
5. To me, your bearing temperature seems to be OK. BTW, what is
your bearing temperature alarm value? Trip value?
6. Do you have thrust bearing babbit pitting problem?
7. If possible send your last calibration reading for the pickup. Do you
calibrate using dial gauges/slip gauges?
Regards.
Posts: 49 | Location: Dammam, Saudi Arabia | Registered: 25
August 2008
Manikantan
Turbine
Live steam parameter - 175 bar/536 C/710 t/h
Cold reheat to boiler - 36 bar /310 C
Hot reheat from boiler - 34.5 bar/536 C
Condenser vacuum at 250 mw - 0.130 bar abs
TG bearing 1 - near HP turbine exhaust
TG bearing 2 - combiner journal & thrust bearing
TG bearing 3 - LP turbine exhaust
TG bearing 4 - generator rear
TG bearing 5 - excitation rear
Axial shift trip value - 0.8 mm
Extraction
HP heater 6 - cold reheat
HP heater 5 - IP turbine
Deaerator - IP turbine
LP heater 3 - IP turbine
LP heater 2 - LP turbine
LP heater 1 - LP turbine
Present bearing temperature
TG bearing 1 - 72 C
TG bearing 2 - 88 C
TG bearing 3 - 82 C
TG bearing 4 - 79 C
TG bearing 5 - 65 C
1. It is a 250 MW turbine commissioned in the year 2002
december. Now axial shift is maintaining at 0.73 mm.[average
value]
2. Axial shift is measured by three probes
3. Each showing -0.70/-0.75/-0.73 mm
4. Bearing 1 temperature has rised by 3 C
5. Bearing 2 temperature has rised by 2 C
6. Thrust bearing front temperature maintains at 86 C
7. Two thrust bearing front & rear temperature are available.
a. Thrust front - 86/75 C
b. Thrust rear - 65/65 C
My question:
Why axial shift is maintaining at 0.73 mm?
1. Do you have one or multiple probes to measure axial shift?
Three probes are available for measuring axial shift
2. Do you have electric trip alone? Or, do you have mechanical trip
also?
Only electronic trip
3. Do you have Automatic Turbine Tester (ATT)? If you have, did
you test the axial shift protection on line?
We are not having axial shift trip testing online.
4. Regardless of the absolute value, does your delta in axial shift
reading (at barring gear and at rated speed/load) is same? For
example, in 200/210/250/500 MW turbines we used to see a delta
of -0.2 mm
There is variation in axial shift delta.
5. To me, your bearing temperature seems to be OK. BTW, what is
your bearing temperature alarm value? Trip value?
Alarm value:110C
Trip value:120C
6. Do you have thrust bearing babbit pitting problem?
We have inspected thrust bearing once. But I am not sure of babbit
pitting problem.
7. If possible send your last calibration reading for the pickup. Do
you calibrate using dial gauges/slip gauges?
I will try to collect this datas.
Manikantan M P
ganesh,
v.j
Dear Manikantan,
I had a quick glance at your reply.
1 & 2. You have 3-channels and all readings are very close. However,
measurement error cannot be overruled yet. Did you have channel
failures? Did you ask for 3-channel design or was it OEM decision?
I worked on two projects with 3-tier arrangements and personally
know it is hard to calibrate - bad design really! I like the 1-probe
design with mechanical trip (no electrical trip, only high/very high
alarm).
3. It is surprising that you do not have ATT for ETP!
4. Give me the 'value' please! This is the most important question of
all. Also indicate your convention: whether + readings are towards
the thrust rear.
My experience: In one site, we were running Unit-1 close to the trip
value for more than one year. Unit never tripped on thrust protection
(1-Ch design). During each trip, the absolute value was getting
shifted permanently to +ve side by a random amount, but the delta
between barring gear & rated speed remained same (-0.2 mm). Our
convention for AS: + is towards Generator. We used to confirm the
electronic sensor accuracy many times by opening the inspection
covers; this was a tough job. Funny thing was that opposite side pad
temperature was the highest. It took about two years to solve the
mechanical problem electrical pitting & looseness (not on thrust
pads).
5. Your bearing temperature trip values are matching with ours. The
raising trend you were mentioning is small and is not a problem now.
As long as you do not bypass the electrical thrust protection (ETP),
things are OK. I know one Japanese m/c tripped on ETP in one site
and because it tripped, m/c was brought back in about two months.
Otherwise it might have taken an year or so!
6 & 7 Waiting for your reply
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-------------
Why axial shift is maintaining at -0.73 mm?
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-------------
I cannot answer this unless I get an answer for Q4, Q7 and the
following questions:
8. What is the designed operating value for your machine? If you do
not have this information, it will be better to compare similar units in
your/nearby site.
9. What is the data recorded for AS & Thrust pad temperatures
during 1st startup/commissioning? Please give me the barring gear,
FSNL (rated speed) and full load values.
If I remember correctly for 200/210/250/500 MW BHEL sets, the
design values used to be -0.15 to -0.2 mm and the sets where I
worked used to operate at these values.
I must caution you, BHEL sets were of separate IP and 2-flow LP
design. Have some operational records at my hometown, I can check
when I visit India next time!
BTW, who supplied your set?
Regarding the vacuum problem, possible troubleshooting hints are:
- Condenser fouling or circulating water system performance. One
way is to watch the trend on condensor DP & DT (differential pressure
and differential temperature)
- HPT Blade deposit (can be ruled out in new m/c like yours). Watch
the trend of HP 1st stage pressure for same load when extractions
are normal (no feed water heaters out of service)
- vacuum system problem. Do you have ejectors or vacuum pumps?
Usually the local air flow indicator which can be taken into service
momentarily can give a starting clue.
Regards.
This message has been edited. Last edited by: ganesh, v.j,
01 November 2008 12:14 AM
August 2008
ganesh,
v.j
posted 01 November 2008 12:57 AM Hide Post
I looked at commissioning records of 664 MW steam turbine
(Mitsubishi/Westinghouse, 2-flow HP, 2-flow IP, 2-flow double LP
design) here.
The values in mm are:
Unit No. BG 3600 rpm 30% Load
5 -0.07 +0.12
7 0.03 0.21 0.23
6 -0.25 -0.05 -0.03
As you can see the delta between BG and FSNL is about 0.18 to 0.20.
Probably zero setting for Unit-6 was incorrect, but still the delta was
0.20 mm.
This is one of the reasons why I was aksing delta readings.
Regards.
August 2008
Manikantan
posted 06 November 2008 03:21 PM Hide Post
Dear sir,
i am collecting datas. after collecting datas i will contact u.
thank you
quote:
Originally posted by ganesh, v.j:
I looked at commissioning records of 664 MW steam
turbine (Mitsubishi/Westinghouse, 2-flow HP, 2-flow IP,
2-flow double LP design) here.
The values in mm are:
Unit No. BG 3600 rpm 30% Load
5 -0.07 +0.12
7 0.03 0.21 0.23
6 -0.25 -0.05 -0.03
As you can see the delta between BG and FSNL is
about 0.18 to 0.20.
Probably zero setting for Unit-6 was incorrect, but still
the delta was 0.20 mm.
This is one of the reasons why I was aksing delta
readings.
Regards.
Manikantan M P
Manikantan
Dear sir,
Please find the excel file for turbine and bearing position
regards
quote:
Dear Manikantan,
1 & 2. You have 3-channels and all readings are very
close. However, measurement error cannot be
overruled yet. Did you have channel failures? Did you
ask for 3-channel design or was it OEM decision?
I worked on two projects with 3-tier arrangements and
personally know it is hard to calibrate - bad design
really! I like the 1-probe design with mechanical trip
(no electrical trip, only high/very high alarm).
4. Give me the 'value' please! This is the most
important question of all. Also indicate your
convention: whether + readings are towards the thrust
rear.
My experience: In one site, we were running Unit-1
close to the trip value for more than one year. Unit
never tripped on thrust protection (1-Ch design).
During each trip, the absolute value was getting shifted
permanently to +ve side by a random amount, but the
delta between barring gear & rated speed remained
same (-0.2 mm). Our convention for AS: + is towards
Generator. We used to confirm the electronic sensor
accuracy many times by opening the inspection covers;
this was a tough job. Funny thing was that opposite
side pad temperature was the highest. It took about
two years to solve the mechanical problem electrical
pitting & looseness (not on thrust pads).
5. Your bearing temperature trip values are matching
with ours. The raising trend you were mentioning is
small and is not a problem now. As long as you do not
bypass the electrical thrust protection (ETP), things are
OK. I know one Japanese m/c tripped on ETP in one
site and because it tripped, m/c was brought back in
about two months. Otherwise it might have taken an
year or so!
--------------------------------------------------------------
-----------------------------
--------------------------------------------------------------
-----------------------------
I cannot answer this unless I get an answer for Q4, Q7
and the following questions:
8. What is the designed operating value for your
machine? If you do not have this information, it will be
better to compare similar units in your/nearby site.
9. What is the data recorded for AS & Thrust pad
temperatures during 1st startup/commissioning?
Please give me the barring gear, FSNL (rated speed)
and full load values.
If I remember correctly for 200/210/250/500 MW BHEL
sets, the design values used to be -0.15 to -0.2 mm
and the sets where I worked used to operate at these
values.
I must caution you, BHEL sets were of separate IP and
2-flow LP design. Have some operational records at my
hometown, I can check when I visit India next time!
Regarding the vacuum problem, possible
troubleshooting hints are:
- Condenser fouling or circulating water system
performance. One way is to watch the trend on
condensor DP & DT (differential pressure and
differential temperature)
- HPT Blade deposit (can be ruled out in new m/c like
yours). Watch the trend of HP 1st stage pressure for
same load when extractions are normal (no feed water
heaters out of service)
- vacuum system problem. Do you have ejectors or
vacuum pumps? Usually the local air flow indicator
which can be taken into service momentarily can give a
starting clue.
Regards.
Manikantan M P
turbine.xls (20 Kb, 63 downloads) excel
Manikantan
Dear sir,
please find the word document
regards
quote:
Dear Manikantan,
1 & 2. You have 3-channels and all readings are very
close. However, measurement error cannot be
overruled yet. Did you have channel failures? Did you
ask for 3-channel design or was it OEM decision?
I worked on two projects with 3-tier arrangements and
personally know it is hard to calibrate - bad design
really! I like the 1-probe design with mechanical trip
(no electrical trip, only high/very high alarm).
4. Give me the 'value' please! This is the most
important question of all. Also indicate your
convention: whether + readings are towards the thrust
rear.
My experience: In one site, we were running Unit-1
close to the trip value for more than one year. Unit
never tripped on thrust protection (1-Ch design).
During each trip, the absolute value was getting shifted
permanently to +ve side by a random amount, but the
delta between barring gear & rated speed remained
same (-0.2 mm). Our convention for AS: + is towards
Generator. We used to confirm the electronic sensor
accuracy many times by opening the inspection covers;
this was a tough job. Funny thing was that opposite
side pad temperature was the highest. It took about
two years to solve the mechanical problem electrical
pitting & looseness (not on thrust pads).
5. Your bearing temperature trip values are matching
with ours. The raising trend you were mentioning is
small and is not a problem now. As long as you do not
bypass the electrical thrust protection (ETP), things are
OK. I know one Japanese m/c tripped on ETP in one
site and because it tripped, m/c was brought back in
about two months. Otherwise it might have taken an
year or so!
--------------------------------------------------------------
-----------------------------
--------------------------------------------------------------
-----------------------------
I cannot answer this unless I get an answer for Q4, Q7
and the following questions:
8. What is the designed operating value for your
machine? If you do not have this information, it will be
better to compare similar units in your/nearby site.
9. What is the data recorded for AS & Thrust pad
temperatures during 1st startup/commissioning?
Please give me the barring gear, FSNL (rated speed)
and full load values.
If I remember correctly for 200/210/250/500 MW BHEL
sets, the design values used to be -0.15 to -0.2 mm
and the sets where I worked used to operate at these
values.
I must caution you, BHEL sets were of separate IP and
2-flow LP design. Have some operational records at my
hometown, I can check when I visit India next time!
Regarding the vacuum problem, possible
troubleshooting hints are:
- Condenser fouling or circulating water system
performance. One way is to watch the trend on
condensor DP & DT (differential pressure and
differential temperature)
- HPT Blade deposit (can be ruled out in new m/c like
yours). Watch the trend of HP 1st stage pressure for
same load when extractions are normal (no feed water
heaters out of service)
- vacuum system problem. Do you have ejectors or
vacuum pumps? Usually the local air flow indicator
which can be taken into service momentarily can give a
starting clue.
Regards.
Manikantan M P
turbine1.doc (35 Kb, 55 downloads) turbine
ganesh,
v.j
Dear Manikantan,
Your delta readings between BG (Barring Gear) and FSNL (Full Speed
No Load) is -0.06, -0.10, -0.08 mm respectively, with an average of
-0.08 mm. That is quite normal. But it is a different story with loading
the set. At 250 MW load, the delta is -0.59, -0.65, -0.62 mm. It is not
normal as compared with other designs. M/S Alstom sets are new to
me. When AS is reaching -0.73 mm? During transients?
If you cannot send design values, send the commissioning protocol
readings.
Check whether your load sharing between HP and IP/LP is OK. For
some designs (KWU/Mitsubishi) IPCVs (IP Control Valves) are fully
open after about 35% load. Check your current readings of IPCV &
HPCV openings for a particular load with commissioning protocal
readings to see whether any major difference has cropped up in
relative readings of HPCV/IPCV (EHC characteristics).
Also noticed that you are running on low frequencies (less than even
49 HZ)! Prolonged low frequency operation (there is a low frequency
operation totalizer/counters in some sets) is prohibited in most sets
as it is harmful for the last stages of LPT rotor. Some manufacturers
say you should not exceed 2 hours (CUMULATIVE) of low frequency
operation below, say, 48.8 HZ, during the entire life of LP Rotor
Regards.
August 2008
Manikantan
Dear Sir,
Low frequency:
In India presently freequency is low due to high demand. specially
Southern grid is facing problem. here daily 8 hours of load
shedding is done by electricity boards.
axial shift moves towards neagative side during prolonged full load
operation. [250 MW]. Average axial shift moves to -0.73 mm
during prlonged full load operation.
we dont why this is happening..
does axial shift has any direct relation with turbine expansion? [Diff
expansion/Total expansion]
for us total expansion varies with prolonged full load operation..
Regards
MP Manikantan
quote:
Dear Manikantan,
Your delta readings between BG (Barring Gear) and
FSNL (Full Speed No Load) is -0.06, -0.10, -0.08 mm
respectively, with an average of -0.08 mm. That is
quite normal. But it is a different story with loading the
set. At 250 MW load, the delta is -0.59, -0.65, -0.62
mm. It is not normal as compared with other designs.
M/S Alstom sets are new to me. When AS is reaching
-0.73 mm? During transients?
If you cannot send design values, send the
commissioning protocol readings.
Check whether your load sharing between HP and IP/LP
is OK. For some designs (KWU/Mitsubishi) IPCVs (IP
Control Valves) are fully open after about 35% load.
Check your current readings of IPCV & HPCV openings
for a particular load with commissioning protocal
readings to see whether any major difference has
cropped up in relative readings of HPCV/IPCV (EHC
characteristics).
Also noticed that you are running on low frequencies
(less than even 49 HZ)! Prolonged low frequency
operation (there is a low frequency operation
totalizer/counters in some sets) is prohibited in most
sets as it is harmful for the last stages of LPT rotor.
Some manufacturers say you should not exceed 2
hours (CUMULATIVE) of low frequency operation below,
say, 48.8 HZ, during the entire life of LP Rotor
Regards.
Manikantan M P
ganesh,
v.j
Dear Manikantan,
I am very familiar with Indian grid scenario.
Look into your OEM manual for Turbine: there will be a finite limit to
prolonged low frequency operation (unless you have got a LP rotor
specifically designed for low frequency operation)! The on-line
vibration indicators may or may not even reveal problem. Inspection
of last 2 or 3 stage blades during overhaul will reveal it. Did you carry
out LP overhaul?
Axial shift can be simply visualized as a rotor movement due to
difference in thrust created by steam flowing through HP and
combined IP/LP (in your case). The movement is kept very less (0.15
mm to 0.2 mm) by design. It is measured where the thermal
expansion of rotor is zero, i.e., at rotor 'anchor' point. Hence, axial
shift is not affected by thermal expansions of casing/rotor. Reading
may be affected by lub oil/housing temperatures, but this error will
be noticed only during cold startups. If you have specific problems
like restrained casing expansions (or restricted shperical seating of
bearings), then axial shift can get affected.
I have heard of axial shift momentarily going high during rolling (in
units with combined HP/IP but separate LP) but it comes down after
rolling. I have not come across much change in AS readings with
loading. The delta remains more or less same at FSNL, low loads or
at full-load.
But in your case, did it change with load during first commissioning?
If so, by how much? You need to look into protocol
readings/commissioning records.
I asked you to look into current load sharing (i.e., HPCV/IPCV
openings) because it will give a rough idea of any change in thrust
forces.
Prolonged full-load operations (250 MW) should not result in any
change in total expansion. Total expansion (casing expansion) is a
function of temperature and not load!
I think you have a mechanical problem. Check whether this problem
vanishes during normal frequency (i.e., whether the problem is due
to prolonged high load or low-frequency) operation.
August 2008
ganesh,
v.j
Dear Manikantan,
Following information can be of interest to you.
Abnormal Operation section of an OEM Instruction Book for Steam
Turbines operating at 60 HZ frequency states that:
Off-frequency operation: Operation at low frequency is to be
avoided, due to the possible occurrence of blade resonance. However,
there is generally little likelihood of developing excessive vibratory
stress at frequency down to 58-1/2 cycles. Should frequency drop
below 58-1/2 cycles, vibratory stresses are more likely to increase to
a point when fatigue cracks could be generated. Therefore unit is
interlocked to trip at less than 58-1/2 cycle frequency
Regards.
August 2008
Manikantan
Dear sir,
I have read your message. I have learnt about steam turbine. I
Reply
wish to know your email Id for future correspondance.
my email ID : manikantanparam@yahoo.co.in
Thank you
Regards
MP Manikantan
Manikantan M P
pavankumarpn
Dear Mr Manikanthan,
pl see the file attached .
PN Pavankumar,NTPC
axial-shift-mforum-1.doc (32 Kb, 67 downloads)
Posts: 4 | Location: India | Registered: 26 October 2009

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