The Prophecy of Noise: An Interview with Jacques Attali

By Angus Carlyle
Many years ago, I spent a suer holi!ay in a sall cottage in the "outh of #rance$ %ong after
the sun ha! gone !own an! y frien!s ha! retire! for the night, I woul! place a !ec& chair ne't
to the swiing pool an! rea! (avi! Toop)s Ocean of Sound until overcoe *y sleep$ +ith the
stars *right a*ove an! the nocturnal chorus of cric&ets, owls calling fro the near*y woo!s,
an! *ats clic&ing overhea!, everything seee! in its proper place, the vivi! soun!scape that
surroun!e! e at one with the iersive thees of Toop)s *oo&$
,n the voyage hoe, I *upe! into two other frien!s, Mar& an! Julia - who ha! *een
con!ucting an archaeological investigation into Cathar religious sites - an! relaye! the
e'perience of y pool-si!e e!itations$ By coinci!ence, they too ha! spent their tie in the
copany of another *oo& a*out soun!$ #or the, it ha! *een Jacques Attali)s Noise$
As we hea!e! *ac& to Britain, we inevita*ly copare! notes$ The warth of Toop)s wor&
apparently contraste! with a certain iciness !etecta*le in Attali)s. the crow! of concrete
references to speci/c usic an! usicians that populate! Ocean of Sound appeare! !istinct
fro the less well inha*ite! pages of Noise. Ocean of Sound was to a certain e'tent seale! o0
fro the political whereas fro its /rst sentences Noise was wel!e! to it. Toop favoure! a
lyrical style an! Attali, perhaps no less poetic, a linguistic !ensity that a!e an aphoris of
alost every sentence$
#or Mar& an! Julia, one of the stri&ing aspects of Noise was the strangeness of the *iographical
i!entity of its author, whose *oo&s on econoics, they reporte!, coul! *e foun! on the shelves
of the hyperar&ets they)! visite!$
#ro 1231 until 1221, Attali was a conseiller special in the #rench "ocialist 4overnent an! in
the /rst volue of his !iary of that e'perience, Verbatim, Attali ac&nowle!ges that even *efore
we get to his te'ts that e'ten! *eyon! conventional econoics, his was a strange position$
5Naturelleent, ce te't est arqu6 par l)6trange r7le que 8)y ai tenu: l)intellectuel !ont le
Prince se 6/e asse9 pour le tenir en lisi:re, ais qui il a asse9 con/ance pour en faire le
t6oin !e toutes les rencontes, le /ltre !e tousles !ocuents, pour lui con/e aintes issions
et l)accept coe son con/!ent quoto!ien;$
As the origins of the prece!ing quotation !eonstrate, Attali)s relationship with the econoic is
not solely a function of his pu*lications or his aca!eic pe!igree$ In!ee!, !espite having <
illion *oo&s translate! into over => languages in circulation worl!wi!e, any &now Attali
through the econoic organisations with which he has *een involve!$
?e was the #oun!er an! Presi!ent of the @uropean Ban& for Aeconstruction an! (evelopent
whose function was to assist the forer "oviet Bnion !uring its )transitional phase) C an
occupation which le! one writer on not*ore!$org to characterise Attali as 5Mr$ @uro*an&;$ More
recently, Attali was coissione! *y Boutros-4hali to con!uct an investigation into the
suggling of weapon- gra!e nuclear aterial, an investigation whose results were pu*lishe! in
L'Economie de L'Apocalypse$ More recently still, he has ha! a signi/cant role in several venture
capital, equity an! consultative organisations an! has esta*lishe! Planet#inance, !e!icate! to
co*ining icro/nance with a !ynaic e'ploitation of internet resources in an e0ort to re-
a!!ress the worl!)s gross econoic !isparities$
Although Attali)s pu*lic wor& has not *een insulate! fro controversy, it is his writing which, for
e at least, has the real potential to provo&e$
There cannot *e any in!ivi!uals who have coe as close as Attali to the corri!ors of glo*al
power yet still /n! the opportunity to assert, as he !i! in 1222)s Fraternit, that 5utopiais DareE
only, in the /nal analysis, the nae given to refors that are really awaiting a revolution so
these can *e carrie! out;$
Bltiately, though, for all their erit, I) less intereste! in Attali)s social !iagnoses C
iplausi*ly universal in reach - or his general futorology C not eccentric enough for y tastes -
nor his uch vaunte! i!enti/cation of a noa! society C after all, (eleu9e an! 4uattari, aong
any others, ha! *een there *efore C nor a I particularly e'cite! *y his awar!-winning novels
an! plays$
#or e it is Noise: A Political Economy of usic where his ost potent i!eas /n! e'pression$
,n any occasions Attali)s *oo& has *een use! to provi!e a theoretical *asis fro which to
a!!ress those types of usic whose acoustic properties are assue! to !e/ne the as )noise)
C everything fro 123>s In!ustrial to Aerican ?ar!core to Japanese on!yo$ This parallel is, to
a certain e'tent, right$ Attali frequently en!eavours to persua!e his rea!er that there is a
variety of ine'trica*le connections *etween noise an! pain: *etween the *rutality unleashe!
*y a threatene! @sta*lishent an! the !isorienting !iscor! let out *y the @sta*lishent)s
inten!e! victis. *etween the convulsions that accopany the creation of a new society an!
the apparent chaos of the soun! that announces its iinent arrival$
Fet, although noise is i!enti/e! *y Attali as a etaphor for violence, the applications of Noise
are *y no eans liite! to any !e/ne! usical style Gin!ee!, these applications are *y no
eans liite! to usic itself$ As a pertinent e'aple I foun! yself having to or!er another
copy of Noise after y original was *orrowe! on long loan *y a perforance artistH$ Instea!,
the fun!aental theses !evelope! *y Attali in the /rst e!ition of his e'ten!e! interpretation of
Brueghel)s painting )The Carnival)s Iuarrel +ith %ent) largely escape the speci/cs of tie an!
place$ It is true that in his secon! e!ition, there are ore teporally an! geographically
locate! references$ There is also, for e anyway, the !isappointing !ecision to clarify things, as
Attali tol! Ian "ions at nthposition$co, 5to use a sipler, less aca!eic language in or!er
to reach a larger au!ience$ I realise!, ore than *efore, that the talent is to use siple wor!s
to e'plain !iJcult concepts an! not to hi!e siple concepts *ehin! !iJcult wor!s;$
Noise, then, is a *roa! phenoenon which Attali /rst e'plores in cy*ernetic ters as 5a
resonance that interferes with the au!ition of a essage in the process of eission$K
Bn!erstoo! fro this perspective, noise cannot *e associate! with any speci/c usic, since its
i!entity will shift with the passage of tie$ As Attali asserts, 5DwEhat is noise to the ol! or!er is
harony to the new$K
+hat, for Attali reains consistent, however, is usic)s structural relationship with society$
KMusic runs parallel to huan society, is structure! li&e it, an! changes when it !oes$K "tate!
li&e this, however, this soun!s too close to soe su*-Mar'ist cultural !eterinis$ Attali)s
arguent is o!!er than this, though$ #or hi, usic is not reLection, 5DEusic is prophecy$ Its
styles an! econoic organi9ation are ahea! of the rest of society *ecause it e'plores, uch
faster than aterial reality can, the entire range of possi*ilities in a given co!e$ It a&es
au!i*le the new worl! that will gra!ually *ecoe visi*le, that will ipose itself an! regulate
the or!er of things. it is not only the iage of things, *ut the transcen!ing of the every!ay, the
heral! of the future;$
Thus, the tra8ectory of historically successive para!igs of usical organisation C
representation, repetition, coposition C wor&e! as trailers for the ain features of successive
para!igs of social organisation$
At this point, we can see how Attali)s wor&, rather than *eing !ivi!ea*le into two separate
enterprises C the econoy an! its analysis !ivi!e! fro usic an! its analysis C coes full
circle$ Thus Attali, again in the interview with Ian "ions, reporte! that he always uses
5usic to try to analyse the evolution of society *y using what I can see in the evolution of art
an! usic in particular$ #or instance, in #rance, I saw in the usic of the 3>s the *eginning of
the upheaval in the su*ur*s$ I was the /rst to point out - in 123M - the arrival in our worl! of the
Nnoa!isO, through porta*le an! o*ile !evices, which is o*vious to!ay: I saw it through the
success of the +al&an, the /rst of a long list of noa!ic !evices$ I also pre!icte! the !ecline
of the "oviet Bnion an! the nee! to support these countries, an! propose! the i!ea of the
@BA( after listening to roc& an! roll usic in the "oviet Bnion an! the failure of the syste to
suppress it$ I have also *een trying to analyse the inLuence of new technologies on usic$ The
free Low of usic is announcing a totally new econoy *ase! on the free e'change of signs,
inforation an! services$ Aeciprocally, y un!erstan!ing of the relations of power an!
geopolitics helpe! e, in this new version of the *oo&, to un!erstan! *etter the strategies of
the a8ors in the usic in!ustry;$
It is not only these enterprises associate! with AttaliOs wor& - the analysis of usic an! the
analysis of econoics - that coe full circle$ If we return to the !iscussions y frien!s an! I
ha! as we travele! *ac& fro our respective vacations, it is eaningless to arti/cially
segregate Toop an! Attali, to !ivi!e aesthetics fro ethics, to separate the artistic fro the
econoic$ As AttaliOs *oo& !eonstrates, to oit the econoic !iension is at *est naive. at
worst, it is !ishonest$
In what follows, Jaques Attali e'plores further with Pi*ro the intersections *etween usic an!
the econoy$
Pi*ro: Fou have recently signalle! that )laws) of econoics !erive! fro conventional o!els
*ase! on scarcity ay not *e appropriately applie! to the eerging inforation econoies$
Can you e'plain your thin&ing *ehin! this arguentQ
Jacques Attali: Accor!ing to one law of econoics, if I give soething, I !on)t have it anyore.
*ut if I give inforation, I still have it$ Accor!ing to another law of econoics, the value of a
goo! increases with its scarcity$ The value of an inforation tool, such as a language or a
telephone networ&, is increase! *y the nu*ers of users$
P: Are the /nancial ar&ets - li&e the futures ar&et - not, in the ost precise ters,
inforation econoies$ If they are, how is their growth sustaine!, especially as the real,
)aterial) econoy has e'perience! a year-on-year !eclineQ
JA: The /nancial ar&ets are not o*eying to the laws of inforation econoies, *ecause what
is sol! is not inforation, *ut tie$ An! there are other econoic laws for tie: I cannot give
tie$ I can only len! it$ The futures ar&et is a ar&et where people e'change tie an! not
inforation$ The value of a scoop, for instance, is not the value of an inforation, *ut the value
of &nowing this inforation *efore others$ It is a value of tie$ More generally, anything is
a!e of atter Gor energyH , inforation G or forH an! tie$ @ach of these o*serves three
!i0erent sets of econoic laws$
P: (oes the notion of a pure inforation econoy !epen! upon inforation having soe value
outsi!e the e'istence of correspon!ing carrier or artefact Gwhether that is a C( an! pac&aging
or *oo& with cover or we*-site restricte! through pai! accessHQ If there is such a carrier !oes
what apparently loo&s li&e an inforation econoy actually then respon! to the laws of
scarcity Gthere are only so any C(s, *oo&s or access co!es in e'istenceHQ
JA: @'actly$ The pro*le of the insertion of culture in the ar&et econoy is : is it possi*le to
a&e it arti/cially rare, through licenses, patents, cryptology or will the pirates *e always a*le
to circuvent this arti/cial scarcityQ In y view, this *attle will always *e won *y hac&ers$
P: #ro 4eorges Bataille an! others inclu!ing Marcel Mauss an! 4uy (e*or! we have hear!
intiations of the possi*ility of a gift econoy or a solar econoy$ In your won!erful te't
KNoiseK you see the opportunity for coposers to transcen! the Kstoc&piling of lac&K$ Is this
transcen!ence a ove towar!s a gift econoyQ
JA: Fes it is$ It ay *e the *eginning of a society where people are /n!ing pleasure in
e'changing their copositions, in giving 8oy to others$ A gift econoy is a society where the
one who gives is the consuer Gthe pleasure to giveH an! where the receiver is the one who
pro!uces G an opportunity for soeone else to giveH$ It is a ra!ical inversion of the econoic
laws$
P: Are there any historical antece!ents of gift econoies in usic, where the value of the
soun! !epen!e! upon its !onation rather than what was receive! in return or what ritual R
sacri/cial function was perfore!Q
JA: I suppose that for any usician, its pleasure is not to receive a /nancial rewar! *ut to see
the illuination of faces an! the !ancing oves of his listeners$ Therefore, any usician is
consuer of the pleasure given *y its pro!uction$ Any artist is, in fact, the vanguar! of the gift
econoy$ Any person receiving another one an! having pleasure in !oing so is also a consuer
of the gift econoy: Any act of hospitality G an! art is hospitalityH is an e*ryo of gift
econoics$
P: Is the ultiate gift econoy in usic when the coposer pro!uces only for hiself R herselfQ
JA: It is the ultiate /rst phase$ The gift econoy is en8oying the pleasure of a&ing usic$ But
this is also a *eginning$ It is sai! in the Bi*le that we have to love the others li&e we love
ourselves$ +hich eans only that it is ipossi*le to love others if you !on)t love yourself /rst$
It is equally ipossi*le to please the others if the coposition is not, /rst, on occasion to en8oy
its own creation$ Therefore, after having foun! the pleasure of coposition we can !rag others
in our own creative universe an! share coposition with listeners *ecoing co-coposers$
P: Are their parallels *etween such gift econoies an! what is allege!ly occurring with MP<
!istri*utionQ
JA: Fes$ The MP< is not going to *e a lucrative *usiness, *ecause it is fro the very *eginning a
gift econoy, where people give for the pleasure of giving an! of creating *y i'ing others
gifts$ The future econoy of usic will not *e *ase! on selling tunes on the net, e'cept if it
*ecoe possi*le to organise the encryption of it$ I !ou*t, e'cept if the whole MP< stan!ar! is
given away an! replace! *y a new one, controlle! fro its conception *y the a8ors$ It is
possi*le$
P: Can you e'plain to our rea!ers why soun! !oes, as you argue, operate as an early warning
syste of coing econoic an! social !evelopentsQ
JA: It is !iJcult to e'plain in a few wor!s what is !etaile! in y *oo& NoiseS I can only say that
*eing an art of inforation, it is quic&er to e'plore the possi*le scenarios in usic that in
aterial life$
P: If it can *e a Kheral!K of the future, !o current !evelopents inspire optiis R pessiisQ
JA: ,ptiis , *ecause we see ore an! ore people going to coposition, an! willing to *e
active$ But also pessiis if coposition transfors the worl! into a 8u'taposition of autist
coposers$ It is up to us to a&e the *est use of it$
P: +alter Ben8ain faously claie! that the aura of originality an! authenticity was
!estroye! in the act of echanical repro!uction$ (o you thin& that the history of recor!e!
soun! has *orne out his prophecyQ
JA: It is not true$ +e are always tepte! to thin& that creation an! life will !ie with us$ Aecor!e!
soun! was an opportunity for illions of people to !iscover usics which where *efore only for
privilege! people$ An! to listen at the *est interprets$ This has given to ore an! ore people
tools for creation$ +alter Ben8ain)s thesis eans than creation can occur only in the real of
ignorance$ It is a very aristocratic an! the pessiistic view of the worl!S
P: (o you thin& that sapling - irrespective of questions of legality an! orality - ay have
operate! to restore soething li&e the aura in the !igital ageQ +hat I ean here is that
saples frequently retain the warth an! crac&le of vinyl Gsoething that coul! easily *e
/ltere! out *y ("PH so that the recor!ing e!iu itself is au!i*le an! as such this recor!ing
e!iu itself is eploye! to *etray an aura of huan presenceQ
JA: "apling is a new way of creation , getting away fro the too sanitise! ("P usic$ It is
!eonstration that the real !ean! of the au!ience, is to listen at life, which is the ain
nostalgia in a worl! of artefacts$
P: Are you conscious that KNoiseK has inspire! a any wor&ing at the cutting e!ge of soun!
pro!uction, any of who were *orn after the *oo& was pu*lishe!QS
JA: I have *een tol! that ore an! ore in these last years - apparently ore in the Anglo-
"a'on worl! than in #rance $$$
P: (oes your consciousness of the profoun! pro*les associate! with the corporatisation of
usic a0ect your a*ility to *uy it an! en8oy it in goo! conscienceQ
JA: It a&es e less naive in front of the pro!uction of stars, in all &in! of usic, an! orient y
curiosity to very new /el!s$
P: +hat usic !o you listen toQ
JA: @verything$ These !ays, I re!iscovere! the recor!s I *ought when I was 1T: roantic piano
usic as well as Al*an Berg, an! "atie$ I a also intereste! these !ays in the new !irections of
In!ian usic$
P: Marshall Mc%uhan pre!icte! the return of acoustic space after its prolonge! su*or!ination to
visual space an! visual culture$ (o you thin& the priacy of the visual is ever li&ely to *e
overturne! an!, if it is, woul! the social changes that engineere! this fun!aental para!ig
shift have iplications for the econoic systeQ
JA: +e are going to enter into a <( +orl! incorporating soun! an! oveent in space$ +e are
going to pro!uce the wor& of art *y a travel in the iagination of the creator$ The ne't artistic
revolution will *e to /n! a way to travel in tie$ Music is alrea!y a travel in tie: create or!er ,
giving a eaning through art is a way of /ghting against the natural entropy of the worl!$
P: #inally, a particularly a*itious question, one which I appreciate has no right answers *ut
one which your wor& with the BN an! other N4,s ight o0er particular insights to$ Can
technology *e harnesse! to provi!e any solutions to the glo*al econoic iniquitiesQ
JA: It is possi*le$ I a spen!ing a lot of y tie to !ay on that$ I have create! an organisation
P%AN@T #INANC@ which is using new technologies to help very poor people, ainly woen, to
create their own 8o*s$ Fou can !iscover ore *y visiting the we* site www$plantet/nance$org$