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Shipibo Urban S@ by Roger Rumrill
Translated and edited by Marlene Dobkin de Rios, Ph.D.*
Interview with Guillermo Arr6valo, a
Abstract-Roger Rumrrill, a journalist headquartered in Lima, Peru who is a noted expert on the
Peruvian Amazon, interviewed Guillermo Arr6valo, a Shipibo urban shaman in Pucallpa, who utilizes
ayahuasca i n curi ng ri tual s. Sr. Arrdval o comments on the phenomenon known as drug touri sm,
where urban men and women provi de tours for forei gners, for a pri ce, to experi ence drug-i nduced
mysti cal experi ences i n urban setti ngs l i ke Iqui tos and Pucal l pa, Peru, as wel l as i n Brazi l , Bol i vi a
and Ecuador. Arrdval o di sti ngui shes between fol kl ori c shamani sm and touri sti c practi ces whi ch are
currentl y i n vogue and, i n hi s opi ni on, are the resul t of peopl e tryi ng to resol ve personal probl ems.
Andvalo sees a spiritual and psychological crisis in Europe and North American society. The Shipibo
shaman laments the misuse of toxic plants as additives to the ayahuasca potion and the damage that
these plants cause to the unsuspecting tourist who doesn't really get his money's worth from shamans
wi thout experi ence, peopl e who are l i ars and cheats and who don' t have the capaci ty, the preparati on
or the bol dness to do the work.
Keywords-Amazon drug use, ayahuasca, drug touri sm, gl obal i zati on
The following is an interview between the Peruvran
journalist and author, Roger Rumnill-a native son of the
Amazon and expert on ecology and drug policy-and Sr.
Arr6valo, a native South American shaman from the Shipibo
tribe. Spanish-speaking, Arrevalo is the author of several
books on herbal medicine and traditional healing. Addi-
tionally, Mr. Rumrrill is currently interviewing some l5
"false
shamans," men and women who have become over-
ni ght heal ers to forei gn touri sts who have come to the
PeruvianAmazon in increasing numbers to resolve personal
psychological problems. Arr6valo agrees with Rumrrill that
the phenomenon of drug tourism is opportunistic and based
on an i nsi ncere corps of i ndi vi dual s anxi ous to gai n eco-
nomic benefits from borrowed mysticism. This interview
will be included in the forthcoming book, with Dr. de Rios,
enti tl ed Drug Touri sm i n the Amazon: A Dark Si de of
Globalism.
*Associate
Clinical Professor, Department of Psychiatry and Human
Behavi or, Uni versi ty of Cal i forni a, Irvi ne.
Pl ease address correspondence and repri nt requests to Marl ene
Dobki n de Ri os, Ph.D., 2555 East Chapman Avenue, Sui te 407, Ful l erton,
Cal i forni a 92831.
Journol o.f Psychoacti ve Drugs
Roger Rumrrill (RR): Tell me, what is the situation with
shamani sm at thi s poi nt i n ti me i n the Amazon, par-
ti cul arl y i n Pucal l pa, Peru?
Guillermo Arr6valo (GA): Well, regarding the theme of
shamanism, there are two areas to discuss. One is folk-
l or i c shamani sm, and t he ot her i s t he pr act i ce,
realization and authenticity of the shaman.
RR:You' re speaking first about folkloric shamanism, nght?
What is that about?
GA: I call it that because it deals with tourist attention,
especially taking ayahuasca, with different ceremonial
practices of singing that are conducted not only for
healing. Traditional shamanism was for curing ceremo-
nies. In the current situation, the shamans practice in
Pucallpa and Iquitos. For me, this is merely folkloric.
RR: Is this folkloric shamanism that you refer to increas-
i ng, because not onl y i s i t bei ng practi ced i n Pucal l pa
and Iquitos, but there is also a growing tendency for
shamanism to happen in other areas of the Amazon, in
Brazll, Bolivia, and Ecuador. Do you think this folk-
l ori c shamani sm i s now i n vosue?
203 Vol ume 3' 7 (2), June 2005
Dobki n de Ri os
GA: In my i nterpretati on, most of al l thi s i s a type of com-
mercial shamanism done in order to extract money from
people. Many of those who are called shamans are not
really shamans. Sure, they give ayahuasca to people to
drink but they don' t do it like real shamans. Because
.
of the business nature of their activity, they have to
employ and promote this type of shamanism, and gen-
eral l y they do i t throughout al l the worl d. In Europe,
there are persons who have l earned to go around tak-
i ng ayahuasca but they don' t have the force or energy
that comes from the plant. Nor do the authorities pay
attention to real shamans. Since it is a commercial un-
dertaking, and since the community lives from tourism,
for this reason, governmental authorities haven' t con-
sidered that taking ayahuasca is not bringing benefits
to the communi ty. It can cause soci al -ecol ogi cal con-
sequences for some peopl e who take the pl ant that I' l l
talk about shortly.
[Editor' s
note: Arr6valo is speaking
i n terms of fami l y and communi ty consequences].
RR: What stimulates the North Americans, Asians and Eu-
r opeans i n t hei r sear ch t o exper i ence Amazon
shamanism? Why do these people come? What are they
looking for? What is their objective? Their passion?
You have seen many cases. Tell me, what do you think
about thi s? What do they tal k to you about?
GA: Pri nci pal l y, these touri sts come to try to resol ve per-
sonal probl ems. They say i t i s a sel f-encounter. They
want to fi nd the sol uti on to thei r own probl ems and
then to liberate themselves from those problems or the
psychological traumas that they suffer. Others look for
spiritual responses. They want to know the true spiri-
tual path. They know other forms of what is a spiritual
field. This is a more intellectual search for them. What
is practiced by the Amazon shamans is a type of spiri-
t ual i t y t hat i s mor e compl ex, whi ch di st i ngui shes
between the material and the spiritual. The other theme
for Europeans and Americans is how to develop their
spi ri t-the psyche of the person. Sti l l others want to
cure a vari ety of physi cal i l l nesses.
RR: Does thi s mean there i s a spi ri tual cri si s, and al so a
psychological one in the European and North Ameri-
can communi ti es? Thi s search for personal heal i ng
wasn' t always so strong in the past. Today, those search-
i ng have i ncr eased consi der abl y i n number . Ar e
Ameri cans experi enci ng a spi ri tual cri si s? Is that what
you percei ve i n treati ng these pati ents?
GA: That' s what I see. It i s cl ear among many peopl e. In-
deed, many of them also suffer from depression. Others
are enslaved by their work. Others are hooked into
materialism and they have been neglectful of the spiri-
tual part of themselves. Many of them have been badly
treated by their family. They suffer emotionally from
this, often from their father' s behavior toward them.
This happens both to Europeans and Americans-this
depr essi on.
Journal of Psychoactive Drugs
Interview with Guillermo Arrdvalo
RR: Have you recentl y seen any cases of l onel i ness and
profound spiritual problems over the last few months?
GA: Yes, lately I've had patients who have used other drugs,
all over the world. The Europeans use a lot of LSD,
hashish, and marijuana. Many of them, at times, take
elevated doses of these substances. They suffer a type
ofpsychosi s and psychol ogi cal upheaval . They suffer
from fear, paranoia and other problems. These patients
are ones that I treat wi th ayahuasca. Of course I had to
devel op my own consci ousness to be abl e to hel p them
psychologically. There are other cases where women
have suffered from rape trauma, caused by a father,
brother or friend. These patients also suffer from de-
pression, carrying those memories around for a long
ti me and they don' t accept thei r si tuati on.
RR: Are there numerous cases of rapes, to indicate a ten-
dency among your clients that shows these violations
have i ncreased i n the U.S. and Europe? How many of
your clients have suffered rape trauma?
GA: In my estimatron, SUVo among women. This causes
me to think a lot about what goes on in developed
countries. Here in Peru and in the Amazon one doesn' t
see so many of these upheavals. Also, I have seen spiri-
tual l osses. Thi s i s a very i mportant theme. Among
the cases I treated, 807o also were searching spiritu-
al l y.
RR: How do you use ayahuasca to treat these difficult cases,
these traumas that evidently originated in rapes, physi-
cal i l l ness, obsessi on for money, or l onel i ness?
GA: Fi rst, what I do i s to gi ve the pati ent ayahuasca. Gen-
er al l y, t hese peopl e want t o have an ayahuasca
experience. Since it produces a trance, I am prepared
to devel op my own consci ousness to fi nd the cause of
their problem. I begin to work with them, the psycho-
logical part of the person. Mostly, I have to organize
my work around what the person accepts as their be-
l i efs about what i t i s that has damaged them, the
parti cul ar trauma i nvol ved. On thi s basi s, I organi ze
the psychol ogi cal part of the person, whi ch enabl es
me to understand and to see the solution to their prob-
lem. In this manner, the person can overcome his/her
problem.
RR: If we think about European or American society hav-
i ng these probl ems, these cri ses, don' t you thi nk these
potential patients will continue to increase in num-
ber? In the months and years to come, then, there could
be a vi rtual i nvasi on by cl i ents who want to take
ayahuasca, both Europeans and Americans, to try to
cure themselves of their problems.
GA: Yes, we see this clearly in the steady increase in num-
ber of patients.
RR: What is happening in human society, from your point
of view as a shaman, from your knowledge of human
behavior in the twentv-first centurv? Where is human-
i t y goi ng?
Vol ume 37 (2), June 2005
Dobkin de Rios
GA: There are a large number of people who are turning to
natural medicine. Various trends need to be looked at:
there are some people who seek to transform natural
resources and synthesize the plants. There are others
who seek to use medicinal plants in their natural state.
These two tendencies are followed by young people.
What I believe is that it is important to preserve na-
ture, because that is life. If the natural environment
disappears, really, the earth will suffer a tremendous
catastrophe. That' s what I see.
RR: You say that it is laughable that the number of patients
increases among Europeans and Americans, search-
ing for shamans in the Amazon. But, you have also
shown that many of these supposed shamans are people
without experience, people who are liars and cheats,
peopl e who don' t have the capaci ty, the preparati on,
or the boldness to do this work. Some clients arrive in
the Amazon and find themselves in the hands of these
liars and traffickers.
GA: Yes, we see lot of that. Many who say they are healers
don' t know how to cure. In the case of someone who
arrives with an illness such as rheumatism, or arthri-
ti s, these fal se shamans say such and such a pl ant i s
good for the particular illness. They give the prepared
potion to the client, but get no results. The important
thing is that the healer must know if the illness is re-
ally rheumatism or arthritis. If that is the case, there
are really good plants available which are used for those
types of illnesses. If these European or American pa-
tients go to the liars, also, they constrain the work of
real healers.
RR: But, at the same ti me, thi s can cause probl emp, don' t
you t hi nk? I f a pat i ent has t he i nt ent i on t o pr esent
himself to be cured, and the healer is a liar, then the
outcome can become worse.
GA: Yes, there have been such cases. Some people arrive
at my house, tricked that way. They have to be res-
cued, helped, so that this tourist doesn' t take away with
him or her a bad concept of the Amazon shaman.
RR: What about a serious case where a supposed shamhn
has tried to cure with plants not appropriate for the
illness involved? The shaman may not know anything
about healing. Could that cause madness or death? Has
that happened?
GA: Yes, that can happen. In Pucallpa and other places,
there have been people who have taken ayahuasca, but
these potions were prepared with a number of addi-
t i onal pl ant s. These ot her pl ant s cont ai n t oxi c
substances. The tourist was not prepared for those
plants which can have damaging effects. We see des-
perate cases where the pati ents have to go to the
hospital. They need then to take other pharmaceutical
medi ci nes. They may even di e or go mad. Regardi ng
madness, thi s depends on the shaman. It i s up to hi m
to be able to keep the patient from going crazy, rf he
Journul of Psychoactive Drugs
Intervi ew wi th Gui l l ermo Arr6val o
can avoi d those symptoms. A person who i s not i n con-
trol of these energi es can cause grave consequences to
the patient.
RR: How can we avoid that European and American pa-
tients or those from other nationalities fall into the
hands of these liars and traffickers of traditional medi-
ci ne? What shoul d be done i n thi s type of case? On the
one hand, we have those cases that result in bad out-
comes. This is a strategy for Amazon shamans. Then
there is the danger that an individual will get worse
after treatment and become mad. What do
you
think
about this?
GA: What I think is that the tourist must know very well
the person to whom he is entrusting himself for heal-
i ng obj ect i ves. He shoul d know al l about t he
"curandero"
and if that person is truly knowledgeable.
He needs to verify the value of the individual practi-
tioner with whom he deals.
RR:You speak about ayahuasca with toxic additives. Which
ones are toxic?
GA: There are a number of different plants that are toxic,
which many people are not prepared to control and
there wi l l be bad consequences. Al so, If the touri st has
taken other pi l l s, even an anti bi oti c, yet another toxi c-
ity can poison him and even cause a cardiac arrest or
other symptoms. Ayahuasca by itself is okay. It is pre-
pared with chacruna or other plants that don' t contain
toxic elements. Other toxic plants include to6, or datura.
Si nce these are psychoacti ve pl ants whi ch contai n
strong toxi c el ements, they can cause worse conse-
quences, both toxi ci ty and psychol ogi cal probl ems.
There are many people who use to6. These substances
are toxic and dangerous. They can cause damage in
the opti c area and provoke bl i ndness.
RR: Nowadays, l ooki ng at Pucal l pa, how many of these
tricksters, these false curanderos would you estimate
are at work? Are they few in number?
GA: There are a large number involved. Now in Pucallpa,
there is a wave of competition that exists. Many here
pretend that they are curanderos, even among indig-
enous peopl e. I n San Fr anci sco de Yar i na Cocha
[Edi tor' s
note: a Shi pi bo Indi an communi ty about one
hour' s distance from Pucallpa], in almost every house
there is a
"shaman"
or curandero. They give patients
ayahuasca to dri nk.
RR: In the past among the Shipibo, the curandero or mae-
stro was a person of hi gh soci al status wi thi n the
community' s hierarchy. There might be only one or
two i n a communi ty who were shamans, i sn' t that so?
But that has multiplied, not because of a search for
knowledge but rather as a way to obtain money.
GA: Yes, i t i s for that reason. Moreover, i t i s dangerous.
RR: To begi n thi s conversati on, you spoke about two types
of shamani sm: the fol kl ori c type whi ch we have j ust
analyzed and the other type, authentic shamanism. Tell
205 Vol ume 37 (2\, June 2005
Dobki n de Ri os
me about t hi s l at t er t ype of shamani sm. How i s
ayahuasca used in that system which you called an au-
thentic genre?
GA: In this field there are specialists, true practitioners,
people who are knowledgeable about shamanism. For
example, as some people have written, that there are
those that have knowledge of plants and their magical
management. At another level, there are los muraillas,
who have a profound knowledge regarding the admin-
istration of medicinal plants, as well as the magical
aspects of nature. Then, there are those who can man-
age magical information-persons who can pass on to
another level of knowledge, about the earth, the water,
etc. They can transport themselves to other planes. Still
other knowl edge i s cal l ed bomanuna, whi ch si gni fi es
persons who are surrounded by special states of con-
sciousness. They can make bomanuna happen. They
are devel oped peopl e who at thei r l evel of consci ous-
ness can make things happen and they develop their
si xth sense
[Edi tor' s
note: thi s i s cal l ed the
"vi dente
phenomenon," see Dobki n de Ri os 1984].
RR: Is that another level? We are now speaking now about
two types of ayahuasca healers in a different hierar-
chy, One doesn' t hear much about thrs bomanuna.Is
this from the Shipibo hierarchy or from other indig-
enous peopl e?
GA: It i s Shi pi bo-Coni bo.
RR: Is the highest level the murailla? Or the bomanuna?
How many muraillas Ne there in the Ucayali region
now?
GA: I think there could be three or four of these individu-
al s.
RR: Are you a murai l l a?
GA: Yes
RR: Are these hierarchies very limited? Are the number of
maestros expandi ng and growi ng? What i s the si tua-
ti on nowadays?
GA: They are di mi ni shi ng i n number. The reason i s that
one has to submi t to a di et that i s very ri gorous, a di s-
cipline for over a long period of time. Thus, this diet
causes consequences. Many ti mes young peopl e don' t
want to continue this type of apprenticeship. Actually,
the majority of healers use ayahuasca, they smoke to-
bacco and utilize other inferior teaching plants, not the
good ones. Before, i f one wanted to be a shaman, one
had to go on a diet for at least a year. Now, people
don' t want to try to arri ve at such a hi gh l evel .
RR: You speak about hierarchies among about these mae-
stros. The diet is an important factor in achieving power
at the highest level. Given the situation of poverty that
we see now in the Amazon, the population is very mar-
gi nal , especi al l y among i ndi genous peopl es. Is thi s
factor an obstacle for young people who want to learn
to be apprentices to shamans? Is this the reason why
Journal of Psychoactive Drugs
Interview with Guillermo Arr6valo
the hi gher l evel of achi evement doesn' t happen any
more?
GA: It is mostly because there are changes that have oc-
curred in society today. Generally, young people want
to live in cities. Some go to Lima to study. They have
other goals. To function in this world of shamanism
or curanderismo demands a certain measure of disci-
pline to live within the rules. Young indigenous people
in these times don' t want to get involved in these stud-
ies. They want to have a
"normal"
life. They prefer
not to submit themselves to that type of strenuous ap-
prenticeship.
RR: How much have the indigenous peoples of the Ama-
zon changed, in this case, among the Shipibo, from
your memory of your childhood to the present time?
What have been the economic changes, the cultural
changes, the changes i n customs? These are maj or
changes, irreversible ones, that have occurred in the
Ucayali region. Do people continue to keep their an-
cient essential cultural values? Radical changes include
the lessening of attachment to their cultural roots. How
do you see thi s?
GA: We can say that there have been great changes over
the last years, perhaps as much as a60Vo change. Many
Shipibo youth seek to change their customs. For ex-
ampl e, they don' t want to stay i n thei r communi ti es.
In the past, they dedicated themselves to farming, fish-
i ng and hunt i ng, al l t hose act i vi t i es. Gener al l y,
nowadays, young peopl e go to the ci ti es. Some ex-
pect to return home whi l e others don' t. Thus, some
renounce their cultural roots. Also, many who are in-
terested in shamanism don' t want to submit themselves
to diets with teaching plants. They prefer to have re-
course to books of occult sciences. Others learn black
magi c, r ed magi c, gr een magi c and whi t e magi c
[Editor' s
note: These are different types of magic, such
as l ove magi c, magi c for economi c success, etc.]. Al so,
they obtain information from other books of prayers
and i ncantati ons, books about St. Ci pri ano,
[Edi tor' s
not e: sai d t o be t he pat r on sai nt of Cur ander os] ,
Rosacrucian texts, mysticism-there is an immense
change. Indigenous youth seek other types of devel-
opment. Economically speaking, it is the same. I can
say that many indigenous people have worked in the
l umber i ndustry. But, i n that fi el d they di dn' t reach
any great economi c posi ti on. They obtai ned money
for their work, but it was badly used. Nowadays, many
don' t have any money left from that period. Poverty
is worse than before. I see that isn' t problem of a coun-
try, but rather a problem for the individual. If a person
doesn' t control or admi ni ster hi s earni ngs wel l , of
course he will become part of a group of poor people.
Even though the Shi pi bo have a l ot of weal th i n the
elaboration of weavings, and artesanry, they also are
Vol ume 37 (2), June 2005
Dobkin de Rios
mired in poverty due to a lack of awareness, a lack of
development to find a better standard of living.
RR: This migration, the fleeing of young people to the cit-
ies like Pucallpa and Lima is a process of change that
evidently appears to me will fundamentally effect the
identity and culture of the Shipibo. What do you think?
GA: Yes, this will have immense effects. Organically, the
leadership doesn' t know how to lead. Pride and ego-
ti sm exi st among the l eaders.
RR: There are many changes that have occurred in the
Amazon, from a pol i ti cal , cul tural , educati ve, eco-
nomic, and demographic approach. However, there
have not been changes for the better. Everything ap-
pears to go backwards with regard to the economy.
The changes in the Amazon over the last 30 years have
worsened. What values if any, have remained from the
Shipibo culture? Or has nothing remained?
GA: What has remained has been the knowledge base. For
example, women still have knowledge of art, and there
i s knowl edge of shamani sm al so, whi ch can be used
i n devel opment, i f the Shi pi bo begi n to val ue thi s.
Shamani sm i s spi ri tual knowl edge, whi ch for the i n-
di genous per son can hel p hi m/ her over come t he
economic recessions in which we are now living. This
is an alternative.
Interview with Guillermo Amdvalo
RR: With regard to renewable resources of the Amazon,
wood, soils, fish, etc., these are beginning to be scarce
and to disappear. What remains in the Amazon as re-
newable resources?
GA: Knowledge is the renewable resource of the Amazon.
If a people don' t have knowledge, really, if it becomes
lost, one will not know how to find the way to devel-
opment in the future. If one doesn' t have knowledge,
one lives in a truly poor community.
RR: Indigenous peoples are a bank of knowledge which is
visible. Where is that knowledge? That knowledge of
the forests, of the rivers?
GA: Everything is there-the indigenous people have this
knowl edge.
RR: Everything has been sacked . . .
GA: But the knowledge still remains. I believe that no one
has taken it away. Thus, we have to set off on the path
of improvement on the basis of our knowledge. There
is no other way to development.
REFERENCE
De Ri os, M.D. 1984. The vi dente phenomenon i n Thi rd Worl d tradi ti onal
healing: An Amazonian example . Medical Anthropology 8 ( I
):
60-
70.
Journal of Psychoactive Drugs 207 Vol ume 37 (2), June 2005