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How CAESAR is calculating NEMA23 moments about resoltn point - Intergraph CADWorx & Analysis

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How CAESAR is calculating NEMA23
moments about resoltn point
runner
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12/11/08
Posts: 121
Loc: INDIA

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#40299 - 01/19/11 01:35 PM

hi to all,
Thank you for your time in replying and answering my
questions.

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while performing NEMA 23 check.

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1) How CAESAR is calculating moments about resolution

point
Mx =
My =
Mz =
When we enter the input distance from resolution point?

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Thanks

Edited by runner (01/19/11 01:35 PM)

Max Online: 57 @

12/06/09 11:14 AM

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Re: How CAESAR is calculating NEMA23

moments about resoltn point [Re: runner]
danb

FAQ

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Runner,

Registered:
04/22/05
Posts: 1172
Loc: ...

Please use "Search" function.

#40307 - 01/19/11 10:45 PM

Regards,
_________________________
Dan

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Re: How CAESAR is calculating NEMA23

moments about resoltn point [Re: danb]
runner
Member
Registered:
12/11/08

#40382 - 01/23/11 12:35 PM

danb,
In NEMA "Factor for allowable increase" (optional), if client
have no information about this, Default value is 1 as said by

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How CAESAR is calculating NEMA23 moments about resoltn point - Intergraph CADWorx & Analysis

CAESAR II (F1 help)

Question is if I consider Factor for allowable increase as 2.0
I get pretty good result then 1.0, whom should I consult
rather then client?
I could not understand HOW CAESAR II is calculating
MOMENTS ABOUT RESOLUTION POINT? ( I searched in
CAESAR tech doc and help but couldn't find any information
on it)
Moments About Resolution Point
(Algebraic addition of the moments above)
MX= -524 ft.lb.?
MY= -3428 ft.lb.?
MZ= 5986 ft.lb.?
Edited by runner (01/23/11 12:38 PM)

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Re: How CAESAR is calculating NEMA23

moments about resoltn point [Re: runner]
danb

#40388 - 01/24/11 01:39 AM

Member

Runner,

Registered:
04/22/05
Posts: 1172
Loc: ...

1. It is the manufacturer you have to contact.

2. See Aplication Guide, Example 10 - Nema SM 23.
Regards,
_________________________
Dan

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Re: How CAESAR is calculating NEMA23

moments about resoltn point [Re: danb]
MoverZ
Member
Registered:
11/22/06
Posts: 1145
Loc: Hants,
UK

#40393 - 01/24/11 07:42 AM

Moments about the resolution point are calculated due to

loads applied to each nozzle, and summed to give the net
value. Typically moments in X direction for one nozzle:
MX components from one nozzle = MX + FY.dZ + FZ.dY
Where dX dY and dZ are the vectors from nozzle to
resolution point.
Danb is right about the NEMA factor. If it's not in the data,
and it should be, contact the vendor.

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Re: How CAESAR is calculating NEMA23

moments about resoltn point [Re: MoverZ]

#40400 - 01/24/11 08:45 AM

Dave Diehl

Member

Unfortunately, the NEMA documentation uses the word

"resolve" or "resolution". The example clearly shows that is
not the case.
I believe you'll find other discussion on this topic in this

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How CAESAR is calculating NEMA23 moments about resoltn point - Intergraph CADWorx & Analysis

Forum. Use the search feature.

_________________________
Dave Diehl

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Re: How CAESAR is calculating NEMA23

moments about resoltn point [Re: Dave Diehl]
runner
Member
Registered:
12/11/08
Posts: 121
Loc: INDIA

#40406 - 01/24/11 11:35 AM

Thank you for your time in replying,

its very much help full, I have read from turbine vendor dwg
Factor for allowable increase twice so I used 2.0.
Thanks
arun

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Re: How CAESAR is calculating NEMA23

moments about resoltn point [Re: Dave Diehl]
mariog

#42351 - 04/12/11 07:37 AM

Member

Dear Mr. Diehl,

Registered:
09/29/07
Posts: 474
Loc: Romania

I'm just curious why the current interpretation of SM 23 and

API 617 seems to miss the next words after "resolved". In
both documents appear "resolved at the centerlines".
By "mechanics", I would interpret the intention of this
reference is to ask "resolving" the resultant moment based
on the notion of "moment of force about a line". By
definition, this one is the (vector) projection on that axis of
the (vector) "moment of force about a point" when point
belongs to that axis.
It can be proved that the moment of force about the line
remains the same when point is "moving" along the line.
My best regards.

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Re: How CAESAR is calculating NEMA23

moments about resoltn point [Re: mariog]

#42404 - 04/14/11 10:01 AM

Dave Diehl
Mariog,
Member
Registered:
12/14/99
Posts: 1557
Loc: Houston,
TX, USA

We, too, are puzzled by the wording. A few years ago we

asked for an "interpretation" and our request has not been
satisfied.
I don't have the code in front of me now but I agree that it
looks like that sentence is missing a few words.
I find it unfortunate that that code uses the term

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How CAESAR is calculating NEMA23 moments about resoltn point - Intergraph CADWorx & Analysis

"resolved". These forces and moments are not resolved

about a point as we would expect.
But in the end, the mechanics of resolution is inappropriate
anyway. There is no load path to this intersection between
nozzle line and shaft, is there? But as long as the machines
work, then it's good enough for me.
_________________________
Dave Diehl

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Re: How CAESAR is calculating NEMA23

moments about resoltn point [Re: Dave Diehl]
mariog

#42418 - 04/14/11 11:45 AM

Member

Dear Mr. Diehl

Registered:
09/29/07
Posts: 474
Loc: Romania

I guess everybody was puzzled by the problem of missing

resolution point. What I understand now, after accidental
refreshing my "mechanics" and revisiting the sentences of
standards, is they are not asking to calculate moments
about a point but about a centerline.
Presuming their intention was indeed to "resolve" the
moments of forces about a line (and, exactly as you said,
avoiding to ask myself why this procedure is enough for
machine), there are several practical methods to do it. One
can find in books a specific way to develop such calculation
without a resolution point.
Other method- more appropriate for computers calculationis to consider a point on that line, to calculate -as a
vector- the resulting moment about that point and to get
vector projection on the line. The result is the resultant
moment about the line and -by "mechanics"- the result does
not depend on the chosen point. In other words, we can
choose any point on line when calculate the moment about
the line.
The only doubt may be....indeed was the intention of SM-23
to calculate the moments about a line? just because in their
examples was not the case...
Thanks and my best regards.

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Re: How CAESAR is calculating NEMA23

moments about resoltn point [Re: mariog]
mariog
Member
Registered:
09/29/07
Posts: 474

#42521 - 04/19/11 03:55 PM

Ive tried to understand the logic by which SM-23 does not

mention a resolution point. I think there is an explanation for
the missing point reference in SM-23 and I try to explain it.

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How CAESAR is calculating NEMA23 moments about resoltn point - Intergraph CADWorx & Analysis

I guess their approach without mentioning a resolution point

for combining forces and moments of inlet, extraction and
exhaust connection was to proceed as following:
- Consider a system of coordinates as in figure 8-15, where
Y="vertical up" is centerline of the exhaust connection, Z is
perpendicular on Vertical and on Turbine shaft, X is parallel
to Turbine shaft and pass thru Y and Z intersection;
- Calculate the forces and moments about axes X, Y and Z
(SM-23 says -rather cryptic- "resolve at the centerlines"
and I interpret as "calculate moments about axis") and limit
to the values given in 8.4.6.2 b;
- Consider previous calculated Fx, Fy, Fz, as components of
Fc=sqrt(Fx^2+ Fy^2+ Fz^2)
and Mx, My, Mz as components of Mc=sqrt(Mx^2+ My^2+
Mz^2)
and comply with 8.4.6.2 a, limit 2
I would observe that:
- The coordinate system is not ambiguous; however it has
an "origin" which is not on turbine shaft and makes the
system a little bit "uncomfortable" vs. expectations;
- In order to calculate moments about X, Y, Z we dont
really need a unique resolution point (for example
"Mechanics" explain that Mx remains the same when we
consider any reference point on X and the result
Mx=Sum(Mxi-zi*Fyi+yi*Fzi) does not depend on xi)
- Calculating Fc and Mc means to use formulas and we dont
need any reference point.
That means that we are able to calculate without a
reference point?
Yes and no better said there is a way to develop
calculation without an explicit reference point. In fact it is
something tricky and hidden in formula Mc=sqrt(Mx^2+
My^2+ Mz^2) where we assume in back that Mx, My and
Mz exist together as components in a point; this is
happening only on intersection of X, Y and Z, so at origin of
coordinate system.
So in my understanding we may calculate without a
reference point or using a reference point which is the origin
of coordinate system- the results should be the same.
Edited by mariog (04/19/11 04:32 PM)

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Re: How CAESAR is calculating NEMA23

moments about resoltn point [Re: mariog]
mariog
Member
Registered:
09/29/07
Posts: 474
Loc: Romania

#42584 - 04/21/11 03:23 PM

Probably I failed to convince you all on subject "moments

about centerlines" and everybody prefers to refer to a more
familiar "moment about a point". But I think this aspect is
not really important- because the things are equivalentjust SM-23 complicated the matter not referring to a point.
I think the root of the problem is the common perception
that SM-23 coordinate system is not completely defined and
the origin is not specified. Not true- but unfortunately true
with API 617 figure 4.E1

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How CAESAR is calculating NEMA23 moments about resoltn point - Intergraph CADWorx & Analysis

However looking to SM-23 figure 8-15, the axis Z is

perpendicular on Y (because the system is orthogonal) and
Z is perpendicular also on turbine shaft (as figure
describes).
The vertical Y (exhaust centerline) and the turbine shaft
are two lines in space that do not lie in a plane, and Z is
the line intersecting both of them at right angles. It is "the
common perpendicular" and it is known that "any two skew
lines have a unique common perpendicular".
So Z axis is unique and the intersection between Z and Y
gives the origin of coordinate system.
Now having a point clearly defined as origin of coordinate
system, is there anything more needed?
Maybe yes, because the first impulse in calculation is to use
the origin as "resolution point" but after it is the question if
that's what SM-23 has asked for.
In my interpretation the answer is "yes" because calculating
moments Mx,My and Mz by other method and combining
them as components is equivalent with calculating the
moment about "origin" of coordinates. But looking to the
Samples Problems of SM 23 the answer is "God knows"
Best regards.
Attachments
Fig_8-15_SM_23.PDF

(272 downloads)

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