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HervVarenne
Includedherearesomequotesfromthiswork(Notethatallrightalignedanditalictext
aremyowncommentsonthequotes)

"DiscussionofLviStrauss'spaper'SocialStructure'"
([1952]1962)inAnappraisalofanthropologytoday.EditedbySolTax.UniversityofChicagoPress
1953

ParticipantsinthisdiscussionwereBoyd,Brew,FredEggan,Greenberg,Clyde
Kluckhohn,Kroeber,RobertMurdock,MargaretMead,Nadel,Shapiro,Washburn,Willey

ChapterVIIProblemsofProcess:Resultspp.104124
pp.108118containthediscussionofLviStrauss'spaper

SOCIALSTRUCTURE
LEVISTRAUSS:
Dr.Egganmentionedthattheterm"process"doesnotappearoftenintheinventory
papersbeingdiscussed.Imustconfessthat,asaforeigner,Ihaddifficultyin
understandingexactlywhatwasmeantbytheoppositionbetween"process"and
"result,"and,althoughIwasnotquiteclearwhatwasmeantby"process,"Iassumed
thatitwassomethingdifferentfromresultandforthatreason,Ileftresultscompletely
outofmypaper.
Thisistoberegretted,becauseinthissymposiumwehavenopaperassessingwhat
weactuallyknowtheresults.Thisisavery,seriousgapinourprogram,sincecultural
anthropology...iscertainlyoneofthemostimportantfields,inwhichdozensand
dozensofanthropologistsareworking.Weareincurringtheriskthatwewillnotknow
whatwehaveachieved.

MURDOCK:
Dr.LviStrauss'spaperpresentscertaindifficulties,thereverseofthedifficulties
whichDr.LviStraussamomentagomentionedthathehadwiththeconceptof
process.Althoughanthropologistsindifferentcountriesarecommonlytalkingaboutthe
samething,theyfrequentlyusedifferentterminology...andmuchofthedifficultythat
somereadershavehadwithDr.LviStrauss'spaperrevolvesaround...theuseof
certaintermsandformsofexpressionwhichmayinitiallyrubanAmericanthewrong
way.
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Dr.LviStrausscitesDr.Kroeberwithrespecttotheuseoftheterm"socialstructure."
"Theterm,'structure,"'asDr.Kroebersays,"appearstobejustayieldingtoawordthat
hasaperfectlygoodmeaningbutsuddenlybecomesfashionablyattractivefora
decadeorso,like'streamlining,"'andsoon.IwouldagreewithDr.Kroeberhere.Ido
notlaymuchstressonthewordsthatareused...whatwemeanbythosewordsis
important.Dr.LviStrausshasbeengoodenoughtopassontomealetterwhich
RadcliffeBrownwrotecommentingonhispaper,andIshallreadafewofthese
comments.
"Asyouhaverecognized,"saysRadcliffeBrown"Iusetheterm'socialstructure'ina
sensesodifferentfromyoursastomakediscussionsodifficultastobeunlikelytobe
profitable.Whileforyou,socialstructurehasnothingtodowithrealitybutwithmodels
thatarebuiltup,Iregardthesocialstructureasareality.WhenIpickupaparticular
seashellonthebeach,Irecognizeitashavingaparticularstructure.Imayfindother
shellsofthesamespecieswhichhaveasimilarstructure,sothatIcansaythereisa
formofstructurecharacteristicofthespecies.Byexamininganumberofdifferent
species,Imaybeabletorecognizeacertaingeneralstructuralformorprinciple,thatof
ahelix,whichcouldbeexpressedbymeansoflogarithmicequation.Itakeitthatthe
equationiswhatyoumeanby'model.'IexaminealocalgroupofAustralianaborigines
andfindanarrangementofpersonsinacertainnumberoffamilies.This,Icallthesocial
structureofthatparticulargroupatthatmomentoftime.Anotherlocalgrouphasa
structurethatisinimportantwayssimilartothatofthefirst.Byexamininga
representativesampleoflocalgroupsinoneregion,Icandescribeacertainformof
structure.
"Iamnotsurewhetherby'model'youmeanthestructuralformitselformydescription
ofit.Thestructuralformitselfmaybediscoveredbyobservation,includingstatistical
observation,butcannotbeexperimentedon.
"Youwillseethatyourpaperleavesmeextremelypuzzledastoyourmeaning.In
dealingwithAustraliankinshipsystems,Iamreallyonlyconcernedwitharrivingat
correctdescriptionsofparticularsystemsandarrangingtheminavalidtypological
classification.Iregardanygenetichypothesisasbeingofverylittleimportance,sinceit
cannotbemorethanahypothesisorconjecture."
Onebriefcommentonthelastpoint:Ifeelthatthisposition...isthegreatestsourceof
weaknessinRadcliffeBrown'swork.Withrespecttosocialorganizationorsocial
structure,wemustalwaysconsiderastructuremovingthroughtime,andourattention
shouldbefocusedonadynamicmovingandchangingequilibrium....Thediachronic
aspectisessentialtoanunderstandingofthesynchronicaspect.
ToreturntothefirstpartofDr.RadcliffeBrown'scomments,IthinkIunderstandwhat
Dr.LviStraussmeanswhenbedistinguishessocialstructurefromreality....AsI
seeit,structureisanorganizationoraframeworkthathassomepermanence.Ifone
makesanobservationatagivenmoment...onehasmerelyanumberofconcurrent
elementsthathappentobefoundtogether,as,forexample,inaphotograph.Itisonly
whenoneobservesnumerousinstancesandseeswhatisconstantandenduringand
repetitiveandwhatadherestowhatthatonediscoversstructuresothat
RadcliffeBrown'sfindingstructureinwhatheobservesatagivenmomentisadoptinga
conceptofstructurewhich,tome,isrelativelymeaninglessanduseless.
InDr.LviStrauss'spaper,heusesstructure"and"socialstructure"inanumberof
differentsenses....Heusestheterms"model"tohimthesocialstructureisamodel
ratherthantherealityitiswhatyouseepersistingandrepeating,Heuses"model"in
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thesenseofadescriptivemodelsometimes....Onegoesoutandobservesasociety
and,throughone'sresearches,buildsupamodelofthatsocialsystem.Thisisnotwhat
onefindsinanymoment.Thisiswhatcomesoutofagreatdealofobservation.
Dr.LviStraussalsopointsoutthatthepeoplestudiedwillthemselveshaveamodelof
theirownsystem,andthismodelwilloftenbedifferentfromthemodelthatthe
anthropologistconstructs.WehaveanexcellentexampleinEvansPritchard'sworkon
Azandewitchcraftandreligion,inwhichEvansPritchardfounditnecessarytogo
belowtheconceptionswhichtheAzandehad,inordertoconstructamodelwhich
wouldexplainAzandereligion.
AnothercasewouldbethatofLloydWarnerinhisworkonAmericanclassstructure.
Americanstraditionallydenytheexistenceofaclassstructure.Thescientist
determinesthatAmericanshaveaclassstructure,inthatthebehaviorofAmericans
canbeunderstoodonlyintermsofaclassstructure.Thusoneconstructsamodelthat
explains,tothemaximumextentpossible,thephenomenathatoneobserves.
Therearealsomodelsthatoneconstructsininterpretation.Therearehistoricalmodels
whenoneattemptstounderstandculturechangingovertime,onebuildsamodelwhich
organizesthedataofhistory,maintainingthedatathemselves,asProfessorKroeber
haspointedout,andholdingthemtogetherinameaningfulconfiguration.Thescientist
alsoconstructsmodelsinscientifictheory,inwhichcasehecommonlyrejectsthe
phenomenaafterhehasusedthemandpreservesonlythetestedtheory.
Dr.LviStraussmakesadistinctionbetweenmechanicalandstatisticalmodels,and
herehetouchesuponsomethingoftheutmostimportanceinsocialscience.Hehimself
mentionsthatsociologistsareprimarilyconcernedwithstatisticalmodels....
Apointofargumentbetweensociologistsandanthropologistsiswithrespectto
statisticalandmechanicalmodels....ImightgiveanexamplefromDr.LviStrauss's
paper,inwhichhetakesourmarriageregulationsinamodernWesternsocietyand
pointsoutthattheprohibitionsregardingmarriageconformtoamechanicalmodel,that
certainspecificrelativesareexcluded,andwecanalwayscountontheseincest
taboosprevailing.Butwithrespecttopermittedmarriages,thereisanenormousrange
ofpossibilityascomparedwithasocietyinwhichonemustmarryone'smother'slinked
brother'sdaughter,oranotherwomanwhoisasubstitutetherefor.Insuchacase,you
wouldhaveamechanicalmodelfullyexplainingandaccountingforthebehavior.
Toillustratethedistinctionandtheimportanceofthisforsociologyandanthropology:In
ourworkonsocialorganizationinTruk,wefoundthatthenativesgaveustheruleof
residenceinmarriageasbilocalorambilocal....Inconsideringallmarriages,bya
censusofhouseholdsandworkingthroughgenealogies,wefoundthatabout85per
centofallmarriagestodayandoverthepastarematrilocalandabout15percent
patrilocal.Thereyouhavethestatisticalmodel....
Ourobjectivewastoconvertthestatisticalmodelintoamechanicalmodel,sowe
studiedthecasesofpatrilocalmarriage,inordertofindunderpreciselywhatconditions
theyoccurred,andwewereabletodeterminethatpatrilocalresidencetakesplaceonly
underveryspecificcircumstances,namely,whenthereisnotalargeenoughnumberof
matrilineallyrelatedwomentomaintainafunctioningmatrilocalextendedfamily,in
whichcasethewoman,onmarrying,goestolivewithherhusband,hissister,mother,
andsoon.Inotherwords,wewereabletoreducestatisticalmodeltomechanical
model.
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Ordinarily,sociologiststhinkthattheyhavegonefarenoughwhentheyhave
constructedstatisticalmodels.Anthropologists,Ithink,aremoresophisticatedthan
sociologists,inthattheiridealistoconvertstatisticalintomechanicalmodels.Thispoint
hasbeenspecificallystatedinDr.LviStrauss'spaper.

EGGAN:
ProfessorMurdocktalkedaboutstructuresmovingthroughtime.Istheconceptofco
traditionrelatedtothis,forexample?

WASHBURN:
Inrelationtosomemodels,ImaysayIdonotviewtheinterrelationoffieldsasoneof
takingupwordsandcarryingthemacross.Ithinkstructureinanatomyisavery
differentthingfromstructureinsocialsystems,becausethestructuregetsbackto
differentwaysofdefiningstructure.
But,takingupthemodelsusedinmoderngeneticsSewallWright'smodels,wewillsay,
ofhowevolutionarysystemsworkonewouldhavetohaveinformationonthemating
system,theamountofinbreeding,classes,breedingisolates,populationsize.These
wouldbewhatonewouldhavetohavefromthestudentofsocietyinordertoapply
Wright'sstatisticalmodels,inordertoknowwhatwasgoingoninthesesocieties
genetically.
Likewise,ifthesocialanthropologisthasanidea,say,abouttheamountofinbreeding,if
asocietyisfairlycloselyinbred,thiswouldthrowoffDr.Boyd'sgenefrequencies,and
thereforehewouldnotbeabletotellthesocialanthropologistwhetherthesystemhad
operatedthewaythesocialanthropologistthoughtitbad.ifaclosedsystemof
inbreedingistheidealofasociety,thenthiswillchangethegenefrequenciesina
perfectlypredictable,definiteway,providedthatpeopledidwhattheytellyoutheydid.
Nowthechancesarethattheydidnot,butthisnowcanbemadeamatterof
observationandnotbunch.

BOYD:
Itwouldnotbethegenefrequency,butonlythephenotypefrequencies.

MEAD:
ThereisoneotherpointabouttheusethatDr.LviStrausshasmadeoftheconception
ofmodelsthat1thinkislikelytoconfusesomeAmericanworkers....ProfessorLvi
Strausshasspecificallydrawnoncyberneticsinadifferentwayfromthewaythata
groupofuswhohavebeenworkingcloselywithpeopleatM.I.T.havebeendrawingon
someofthesamematerial.Weareincluding...themodelintheengineeringsense,
thatis,themodelthatisbuiltbyasetofengineerstoasetofspecifications,whether
thosespecificationsaredrawnfromawholeecologicalsystem,as,forinstance,the
modelofAshby,orwhetheritisacomputationmachinethatisbuiltonasetof
specificationsabouthumanmemoryorhumancapacitytosort,translatedinto
mechanicaloperations.
Awholegroupofpeople,someanthropologistsandsomenot,havebeeninfluencedby
theseexperiments..,andtheterm"mechanicalmodel"thereforeischangingits
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generalcommunicationmeaning.
InmypaperIrefertolivingmodelsasopposedtothesemachinemodelsthatarebuilt
accordingtoalimitedsetofabstractions....ProfessorLviStraussandProfessor
MurdocharetalkingaboutwhatIcalla"livingmodel,"exceptthatthislivingmodelthat
wearecomingbacktoisactuallyreallyidentifiedpersons.Sowhenwetalkabouta
livingmodelwewanttobuildeitheranexperimentalsituation...orlookataliving
communitywithspecifiedhumancomponents,eachoneofwhichisreallyidentified....
Unlesswecankeepthesethreeorfourpointsclear,Ithinktherewillbeultimately
someconfusion.AsIunderstandProfessorLviStrauss'smechanicalmodel,as
applied,say,toasocialorganizationsituation,itwouldnotcontainidentifiedpersonsbut
wouldbeapictureofapersonwhomightbeamanwithtwosisters,twobrothers,two
aunts,andsoforth,butheneednotbeanactualone.
Goingthroughthesemachinemodelsisawayoflearning.Wewanttokeepourhuman
componentsidentified,sowecancarryourunanalyzedvariablesasweproceedfrom
onespottoanother....Ifyouabstractfromyourknownsocialsystemandbuilda
mechanicalmodelinthatsense,youcanonlyputinwhatyouhavebeenabletoextract
andyouthrowawaytherest.

ECGAN:
Whatsubstitutesdothearcheologistshaveforthis?

WILLEY:
Well,inthedepthsofarcheology,theterm"model,"asusedbyDr.LviStraussand
Dr.Murdock,iscompletelyanalogoustoouruseoftheterm"type,"asopposedtothe
tangiblerealityoftheartifacts.

EGGAN:
T:Thearcheologistobviouslydealswithartifacts....Anyinterpretationhastobean
abstraction.Itcannotbecomealivingmodel,sincethereisnowayofgettingatthe
people
themselves,IoncethoughtoftheparallelmoreintermsofMaxWeber'sidealtype,
whichisanabstractionbasedonconsiderablereality,andthenattemptingtoapplythat
~nceagaintothearcheologicalinterpretations.

KROEBER:
Iwouldliketosaythatthecotraditionisobviouslyaconstructinoldfashioned
language,historicalreconstructionoraninterpretationofthedata.

NADEL:
Yesterday,IrashlysaidthatIneverusedtheword"model."IfindthatProfessorLvi
Straussquotedmeashavingused"model,"particularlyinconnectionwithasmall
scalemodelofcomparativebalances.Iwasusingitinanaivesense,asyouhavea
modelrailroad.
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Ihaveabrieflistoffourand,perhaps,now,withthelivingmodel,fivedifferentsenses
inwhichthewordcanbeandhasbeenusedbyProfessorLviStrauss....
Onekindofamodelisamachinebuilttospecificationsonwhichyoucanstudymore
easily,exemplify,andillustratemoreeasilyrathercomplicatedconditions.Avariationof
thatwouldbeamachineconstructedaccordingtospecificationsinadifferentdiscipline
whichyoufindillustrativeandusefulinyourowndiscipline.Idonotthinkthatthe
differencebetweenmechanicalandstatisticalappliestothatatall,becauselotsof
statisticalobservationmaygointoyourconstructionandspecificationofthemachine.
AsecondwayProfessorLviStraussuses"model"is:modelequalsnorms.Whenhe
speaksaboutculturesandunconsciousmodelsandpeoplehavingadifferent
appreciationofwhatbecallsmodelsofhisownsociety,whathereallymeansisthat
weobserveacertainsociety,fromwhich,throughessentiallystatisticalobservations,
wederiveacertainnormofbehaviorin,say,marriagerules.Thepeoplehavetheirown
ideaofwhatthemarriagerulesare,whichtheymayquiteoftenputdowninabsolute
terms.Buttheobservermayfindthatthethingswhichareclaimedneveroccurinfact.
Athirdmeaningis...theidealtype.AnexampleofthatisfoundinProfessorLvi
Strauss'spaper,wherehesays,"Forinstance,themodelof,letussay,apatrilineal
kinshipsystemdoesnotinitselfshowwhetherornotthesystemhasalwaysremained
patrilineal,orhasbeenprecededbyamatrilinealform,orhasbyanynumberofshifts
beenprecededfrompatrilinealtomatrilinealandconversely."Thisseemstometobe
anexactcounterpartofMaxWeber'sidealtype,thatistosay,theanalysisofa
situationinwhichyoufindcertainimplicationswhich,forthespecificpurposeof
demonstration,youputintoidealform,leavingoutcertainvariations....MaxWeber
hasproducedGermanbureaucracyasanidealtypeyoucanalwaysargue,ofcourse,
thatitisnotatrueoneitisonlyanidealization.
Nowthereismyfinal,fourthpoint,whereProfessorLviStrausscontrastsmodelwith
reality,andhere,hesaysthatstructureisamodelandnotreality.Iamnotgoingtotalk
aboutrealityIamgoingtoquoteMorrisCohen,whosaysthatdiscussionsonreality
belonginreligion.Sofarasweareconcerned,wehaveaphenomenalworldfrom
whichweabstracttovaryingdegree.Everythingisrealityornotreality,whicheverway
youlookatit.Itdependsonthelevelofabstraction.
Socialstructureisasrealorasunrealasanythingelse,butonahigherlevelof
abstraction.Agreatmanymorevariablephenomenaldetailsareignoredordroppedout.
inthatcase,Idonotthinkitisverysatisfactorytocallthesocialstructureamodel.Itis
thesocietyorculture,ifyoulike,lookedatfromaparticularpointofview,ignoringa
numberofvariables.Twocasescometomymindthefirstistheconcreteindividuality
ofthepersonswesee,theToms,DicksandHarrysofanyanthropologicalfield....
Thesecondvariablewedropoutisthequalitativecharacterofactions,Wheneverwe
constructarelationship,say,love,submission,subordination,weignoretheconcrete
modesofbehavioroutofwhichweconstructthatpositionpictureofsomebodybeing
submissivetoanotherpersonorpeoplestandinginreciprocalorsymmetricalor
asymmetricalrelationships.Ifailtoseethedifferencebetweenrelationsandsocial
structurewhichProfessorLviStraussemphasized,intermsthatsocialrelationsare
therawmaterialandsocialstructureissomethingthatisnotrawmaterial....

SCHAPIRO:
Itoccurstomethatpartofthedifficultyarisesfromthefactthatthenotionofmodelhas
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beenextendedfromphysicsandchemistrytothehumanfield.Inphysicsand
chemistry,themodelsfirstconstructed,theimportantmodelsofthenineteenthcentury,
especiallyofastatisticalkind,wereconstructedtoexplainthingswhichwerenot
visibleforexample,thebehaviorofgasesor,inchemistry,thestructureofcarbon
rings.Physicistsorchemiststriedbyimaginativeeffortandbyagreatdealof
speculationandfittingofexperimentaldatatoconstructanimageofsomethingthat
couldnotbeverifieddirectlybyimmediatevision,andsothenotionofthemodel
acquiredaqualityofabstractionandartisticconstructionwhichisofaquitedifferent
orderfromthekindofmodelthatanarcheologistorahistorianorevenalinguistsetsup
inordertodescribethingswhicharedirectlyobservable.Thesebehastojustifyby
certainmethodsoftestingwhicharedifferentfromthetestsusedinthechemicaland
physicalfield,wherethemathematicalformulationisimportant.
Theproblem,therefore,maybeputinthisway:Inthesocialfields,thereareprocesses
whicharehiddenfromus,whichcannotbedescribedadequatelybysimplyputting
downwhatyouseebeforeyou.Itisthereforenecessarytoconstructamodelofsucha
kindthatwedonottestthemodelbysavingithasaonetoonecorrespondenceto
whatweseebut,rather,thatitpermitsustodeducecertainthingswhichcanthenbe
verified.
Whatisdeducedfromthemodeltoverify?Insomecasesthemodelconstructedby
chemistsorbiologistsforexample,themodelofchromosomeshasbeenconfirmedby
powerfulmicroscopicmethods,andsuchaconfirmationisawonderfultriumphandan
encouragementtogoonwiththeconstructionofsuchmodels.Butunlesswekeep
clearlyinmindthatthereareatleasttwotypesofmodelfunction,dependinguponthe
kindofobjectswewishtodescribe,whethertheyareovertlygivenobjectsorare
hiddenobjectsandprocesses,thenwewill,Ithink,constantlyopposeoneanother
becauseofthestrangenessofthemodeldescribedbyDr.LviStraussinonecase
andthemodeldescribedbyapersonwhowishestodealwithimmediatelygivensocial
situations.

BREW:
Ithinkthisdiscussionhasestablishedthat,fromtheprehistoricpointofview,weare
dealingwithamodelwhichisbasedoninference.Inarcheologywecan*neverget
anythingbutasmallfractionofaculture,sothemodelweuseandproduceisan
inferentialmodel,outlinedsoclearlybyProfessorSchapiro.

BOYD:
IthinkDr.Nadelpointedoutbeautifullythedifferentsensesinwhichtheword"model"is
beingused,andIthinkforeachofthemarathersimpleEnglishexpressioncouldbe
substituted.Forhisfirstmeaning,Iwouldsimplyusetheword"analog"forhissecond
meaning,Iwouldusetheword"ideal."...ThethirdIwouldcallpatternformulation"

NADEL:
ThatwasMaxWeber'sidealtype.

BOYD:

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Iwouldcallthat"patternformulation''andthenthefourthIwouldcalla"sketch"oran
"outline."IsubmittheseassimpleEnglishexpressionsinplaceoftheword'Imodel"
usedinfourorfivedifferentsenses.

GREENBERG:
Animportantone,Ithink,hasbeenleftoutbyyouandwasmentionedbyProfessor
Nadel,namely,allorsomestatementswhicharenotquantitative,andthoseinvolving
definitequantification,like"Sixtytwopercentofthemarriagesarecrosscousin
marriages."

CASO:
Canweusetheword"archetype"formodelinarcheology,forinstance,asan
abstraction?Unfortunately,theobjectitselfseemstohaveatendencytobedifferent
fromtheonesthemodelhasestablished.Therearemanythingsintheobjectthatare
differentfromthemodel.Themodelisonlyanabstraction.Itisakindofarchetype.

MURDOCK:
Ithinktheword"statistical"hasledtotwoconfusions.InDr.Nadel'sremarks,he
mentionsstatisticalinthesenseoftheaccumulationofdatafortheconstructionofa
model....Thatisameansofarrivingatthemodel.InDr.LviStrauss'spaper,Ithink
hemakesaconfusionoftheword"statistical"whenhesaysthatItrytoconstruct
mechanicalmodelswiththehelpofastatisticalmodel.Well,Iusedstatisticsasa
methodofarrivingatamechanicalmodel.ItisnotastatisticalmodelbecauseIused
statistics....

EGGAN:
Isn'thethinkingthatyourseriesoftypesismadeupofacompositetyperatherthanof
individualtypes?

MURDOCK:
Well,thatisaquestionoffact.

LEVISTRAUSS:
Thisinterestingdiscussionaboutmypaperisafineexperimentinculturallinguistics...
.Inthreerespects,atleast,therearesomeagreementsandconfusionwhichIthink
aroseexclusivelyfromlinguisticproblems.
Ihavealreadymentionedtheprocessquestion....SoIshalllaythatasideandpass
ontoanotherconfusioninrespecttoProfessorRadcliffeBrown'sletter,thatis,about
theword"genetic."Therehasbeenacompletemisunderstandingbetweenusonthe
word"genetic,"forbetakesitinahistoricalsensewhileIwasusingitinapurelylogical
sense.Inthefieldofgeometry,forinstance,wemakeadistinctionbetweentwokinds
ofdefinition.Ifwewanttodefineacircle,wemaysaythatitisapatternmadeupof
pointswhichareequallydistantfromanotherpointwhichwecallthecenter,andthisis
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averygooddefinition.Nevertheless,itisnotgeneticbecauseyoucannotmakeacircle
withthehelpofthedefinition.Butifyoudefinethecircleasapatternresultingfrom
havingasegmentofalinerevolvearoundoneofitsends,thisisageneticdefinition
becauseittellsyoubowtomakeacircle.Butitisentirelydifferentfromahistorical
definitionofthewayanygivencirclehastocomeintoexistence.Therefore,whenI
argueagainstRadcliffeBrown,thathisinterpretationsoftheAustraliankinshipsystem
arenotgenetic,Iamreproachinghim,notforfailingtobringupthehistoryofthe
Australiankinshipsystem,butfornotexplainingbowtheyaremade.
ThisisalsothereasonforthedifferentapproachbetweenProfessorMurdockand
myself,whenImentionedthathebuiltupamechanicalmodeloutofstatisticaldata,
becausehisapproachisextremelydifferentfromatrulygeometricalapproach.Itwould
meanconsiderable,forinstance,tosaythatthetheoremofThalesorArchimedesis
truebecauseitisverifiedin60percentofthecases.Ithink,therefore,geometryis
usingmechanicalmodels,whichareentirelydifferentfromstatisticalones.
Thethirdquestionistherelationbetweenmodelandreality,andthisisalsomostlya
linguisticproblem,becauseinEnglishitisdifficulttodistinguishbetweenrealityand
concretereality.Idonotknowbowyoucouldquitequalifyit.Inmymind,modelsare
reality,andIwouldevensaythattheyaretheonlyreality.Theyarecertainlynot
abstractions,aswassuggestedbyProfessorNadel,buttheydonotcorrespondtothe
concreterealityofempiricalobservation.Itisnecessary,inordertoreachthemodel
whichisthetruereality,totranscendthisconcreteappearingreality....Ofcourse,a
modelcanbeveryclosetoconcretereality,oritcanbeveryfarfromit.Inhisletter
ProfessorRadcliffeBrowntakesaverynicesample,becauseaseashellisan
empiricalrealitywhichisveryclosetoitsmodel.Unfortunately,inthefieldofsocial
science,weveryrarelymeetwiththiskindofconcretereality,whichshowsthemodel
inaveryapparentway.However,itseemstomethatsomeapproximationcanbe
foundinthefieldoflinguistics.Thereare,inavocabulary,certaincategoriesofterms
whichareveryclosetothemodelletussaykinshipvocabularyorthetermsforparts
ofthebodyorthetermsforthecolorscheme.Herethemodelis,insomelanguagesat
least,quiteapparent,butthefactthatitisnotapparentforallpartsofthevocabulary
andthatitisnecessarytogotoadeeperleveltoreachitdoesnotprovethatitdoesnot
exist,anditdoesnotprovethatthemodelisanabstraction.Itprovesthattherealityis
morehiddeninsomecasesthaninothercases.
NowIwasaskedtoexplainwhatIcalla"model."Forme,amodelisexactlywhat
ProfessorSchapirostated.Themodelisnotthemathematicalformula,andthemodelis
nottheresultofdirectobservations.Perhapsthebestthingtodowouldbeformeto
giveafewexamples.Evenbeforesucceedinginseeingchromosomes,thegeneticists
werealreadymakingmapsofchromosomesandgenes,andthiswasamodeland,
althoughnophysicisteversawanatom,neverthelesshewasabletobuildanimage
whichdidexplainallthepropertiesoftheatomandcouldbeverified.
Anotherexample:Ithasbeendiscoveredquiterecentlythatcrystalshaveaspirallike
growth,andthiscanbeseenwiththeelectronicmicroscope,althoughnoactual
photographofanygivencrystalshowsaperfectspiral.Allthespiralsareincomplete,
deformed,but,nevertheless,thespiralitselfisthemodelwhichmayhelptoexplainall
itsproperties.
Thedistinctionbetweenthelivingmodelandtheengineeringmodelisapractical
distinctionwhichcanbeofgreatuse,but,nevertheless,Idonotthinkitgoesextremely
far.Forinstance,Iagreewith]ProfessorNadelthatasmallrailwayisamodel.IfIsee
thatforthestudyathandIdonotneedcarswhicharepaintedorbuiltexactlylikeactual
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cars,butIcanjustuseplainwoodensquares,thenthemodelwillbeasimplifiedone.It
willbequitesatisfactoryifitcanexplainallthefactsIamtryingtoexplain,anditwillto
someextentbeanengineeringmodel,amachinebuilttospecifications.
WhenIwasassignedthispaper,IdiscoveredmuchtomysurprisethatIbadnoidea
whatsoeverofwhatsocialstructurewas,andthatIbadwrittenquiteadealonsocial
structurewithoutknowingwhatitwas....
Iwilltrytoshowthatitisatthesametimemoreandlessthanisusuallythoughtless
thanusuallythoughtbecauseIinsistuponthedistinctionbetweensocialstructureand
socialrelations.Socialrelationsarewhataretrulyobserved....But,ontheotherband,
socialstructureimpliesaproblemofaverydifferentnature,andIfeltobligedtogovery
fartowarddemography,becauseitisimpossibletostudystructurewithoutstudying
numericalpropertiesofgroupsand,ontheotherhand,religion.
Ihavenoticedthatreligionwasnotaproblemlistedinthefieldofthissymposium,andI
amsurprisedthatreligionwasnotintroduced,exceptinanegativewaybyProfessor
Nadel.ButIdonotthinkitispossibletounderstandsocialstructurewithouttakinginto
accountthefactthattherearestructureswhich,insteadofbeingrelatedtoanother
structure,openingnewcorrelations,arereallyrelatedtoallthestructurestaken
togetherandhelptoclosethesocialstructure.Ifwehadnothadordersofreligion,the
socialordercouldextendindefinitely,andtherewouldbenewcorrelationsarising,one
aftertheother.Itisonlybecausethereissomereligiousstructureinhumansocietythat
itispossibletocloseupthesocialstructure.

KLUCKHOHN:
Wemustnotconfuserealitywithsubstance,andItakemyfavoriteexamplefromthe
philosophers.Youhaveabrickwall.O.K.Youtakethebricksout,onebyone.
Materially,youhavedestroyednothing,butaformisgone.Youcantakeitfurther,of
course.Youcantakeeachbrickandpulverizeit,andyouhavestillgotallofthematter,
alloftherealityinthesenseofsubstance,thatyoubadatthestart,butonlyadamnfool
wouldsayyouhadnotdestroyedsomething.
IwouldliketolinkthistothequestionthatProfessorSchapiroaskedwhether,in
problemsofculture,wehavesomethinganalogoustotheproblemswhichphysical
scientistsfacedinthelastcenturyandstillarefacing,ofcreatinginferentialconstructs
whichwillhelpustounderstandunderstandinthesenseofpredictwhatwillhappen,
butwhicharedrawnonlyindirectlyfromwhatisseen.Ofcourse,tothisquestion,I
wouldanswer,unequivocally,"Yes."
HenryMurrayalwayssaystherearethreeordersofphenomenaaboutpeopleonecan
saythattherearesomethingsanindividualknowsabouthimselfandispreparedtotell
you.Thenthereisacategoryofthingsthatheknowsabouthimselfbutwhichheis
unwillingtotellyou.Third,thereisaseriesofpropositionswhicharetrue,butwhichthe
individualcannottellyou,notbecauseheisunwilling,butbecausebedoesnotknow
them.AndIthinkthesamethingistrueaboutcultures.

GREENBERG:
Allthingsthatwetalkabout,obviously,arerealastatementaboutsomethingisjustas
realasthethingis.Amodelofashellisjustasrealastheshell.Itisametaphysical
questionwhichwethinkwedonothavetogointo.Butthereisanimportantdistinction.
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...Somehowitisdifferentashellisnotthesamethingasthemodelofashell.Whatis
it?Ithinkwemustmakeadistinctionbetweenthingsanddiscourseaboutthingsandto
discourseaboutthings,wehavetohavesymbols,sowemusthavethisrelationof
referenceofasymboltothething.Ithinkthatisprobablyallthatisinvolved.Itbrings
up,Ithink,animportantconceptofsymbolismandsymbols,whichwehavenot
mentionedatall.

KLUCKHOHN.
Notjustthingsanddiscourseaboutthings,please.Things,discourseaboutthings,and
forms,i.e.,arrangementsofthings.

GREENBERG:
"Discourse"isabetternameforit.

NADEL:
ProfessorKluckbobnhasintroducedanimportantconcept...thatis,theword
"inference."Ilimitedmyselftodiscussingmodelsandstructuresofadescriptiveor
illustrativekind,sincethatwaswhatProfessorLviStrausswasdoing.
Nowithasbeenpointedoutthatmodelscanalsobeusedtorevealhidden
mechanismswhichareexplanatoryofanobservedregularityorconstellationof
phenomena.Herewearedealingwithinferencesfromanobservedeffectinorderto
explainthateffect.Ithinkthesearetwoentirelydifferentapproaches.Admittedly,as
ProfessorLviStraussexplained,wedonotknowyetwhatsocialstructureis,butone
thingIthinkwecansaynegatively:Itisnotanexplanatorytopcategory.Ithasnottodo
withforcesorhiddenmechanisms,whichweinferandforwhichwethenconstruct
models.Structureisstilladescriptiveorillustrativeordiagnosticmodel.Idonotthinkit
includesanythinginthewayofforceswhichhavetobeinterpolatedorinferredto
accountforexistingconstellationsoffacts.

MEAD:
InadditiontothepointthatProfessorSchapiromade,Ithinkwehavetoconsiderthe
useofmodelsasamethodofcommunicationbetweenthesciences.Oneofthemost
importantthingsinProfessorLviStrauss'spaperisthediscussionofwhich'formsof
mathematicsaresuitableforthenumberoflikelyobservationsinthesortofphenomena
thathewasdiscussingwherewehavelittlerunsorshortruns.
ProfessorWiener,inhisfirstbookoncybernetics,claimedwecouldnothandlesocial
sciencemathematicallybecauseofthelengthofourruns.Oneoftheadvantages,
therefore,ofborrowingfromthemodels,inthesensethatProfessorSchapirowas
describingthemfromphysics,backandforthbetweenthesciences,isthatitpermits
ustoseewhetherwecouldusethemathematicsthatanothersciencehasdeveloped
toworkwithaparticularkindofmodel....

LEVISTRAUSS:
WhenIwastryingtousemathematicalmethodsforthestudyofkinshiprules,Ibad
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DiscussionofLeviStrauss's"SocialStructure"

greatdifficultieswithmathematicians,whoalltoldmeitwasimpossible,becausethere
wasnomathematicalwaytodescribemarriage,inthesamewayasProfessor
Schapirotheotherdaywassayingthatthereisnomathematicalwaytoshowwhat
forminartis.
Thenamathematiciancameandsaidthiswasirrelevant,becausebedidnotcare
aboutmarriage,hewasinterestedonlyintherelationshipbetweentheformsof
marriage.Fromhispointofview,therewereonlytherelationships...Thisisvery
importantandhasbeenbroughtupbythenewqualitativeapproachofmathematicsin
topologyorgrouptheory,whichIthinkisapplicabletoproblemsinsocialstructure.

EGGAN:
Iwanttoaddonethingforconsiderationduringtherecess.Whenyouhavedifferent
degreesofabstractionwhatdoesthatdototheproblemofderivingprocess?Doesit
makeitmoredifficultoreasier,ordoesitmakeitimpossible?
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