Cab 2007 May

conservationadvisorybrdmtg_final_051907.
txt
0001
1
THE DEPARTMENT OF CONSERVATION
AND NATURAL RESOURCES
2 LIFE AND FRESHWATER FISHERIES DIVISION
Meeting of May 19, 2007
3
HUNTSVILLE MUSEUM
300 Church Street South
4
Huntsville, Alabama
5 Before the Conservation Advisory Board
Beginning at 9:00 a.m.
6
7
BOARD MEMBERS:
8
Mr. Bill Hatley
9 639 Estate Drive
Gulf Shores, AL 36542
10 Congressional District 1
11 Dr. A. Wayne May
188 County Road 203
12 Eutaw, AL 35462
Congressional District 7
13
Dr. Warren Strickland
14 930 Franklin Street
Huntsville, Al 35801
16 Mr. Johnny M. Johnson
1018 54th Street East
17 Tuscaloosa, AL
18
Mr. Raymond Jones, Jr.
19 401 Franklin Street
Huntsville, AL 35801
21 Mr. Ron Sparks
Department of Agriculture & Industrial
22 P.O. Box 3336
Montgomery, AL 36109
23
0002
1
APPEARANCES (Continued)
2 Commissioner M. Barnett Lawley
Department of Conservation
Page 1
conservationadvisorybrdmtg_final_051907.txt
3 P.O. Box 301450
4
Mr. Dan L. Moultrie, Chairman
5 P.O. Box 188
Verbena, AL 36091
7 Mr. Gaines Smith
Alabama Co-op Extension Service
8 109 Duncan Hall
Auburn, AL 36849
9 State wide
10 Mr. W. Grant Lynch
P.O. Box 777
11 Talladega, AL 35161
12
Mr. Louis W. Coles
13 6207 County Road 625
Enterprise, AL 36330
15 Mr. George Harbin
1177 Elliott Road
16 Gadsden, AL 35904
17
Ms. Robin Nummy
18 Alabama Department of Conservation and
Natural Resources
19 64 North Union Street
20
Also Present: Fred Harders
21
Gary Moody
Corky Pugh
22
Allan Andress
23
0003
1
INDEX
2 Call to Order
4
3 Invocation
4
4 Introduction of Advisory
6
Board Members
5
Approval of Minutes of Last 8
Page 2
6
7
8
9
10
Meetings
Public Hearing
9
Old Business
83
New Business
170
Selection of Date and
216
Location of 2008 February
11 Advisory Board meeting
12 Meeting Adjourn
216
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
0004
1 CONSERVATION ADVISORY BOARD MEETING
2
Saturday, May 19, 2007
3
4
MR. CHAIRMAN: I'd like to call
5 to order the May 19, 2007, meeting of
6 the Conservation Advisory Board. I
7 would like to welcome everyone to the
8 Huntsville Museum of Arts. I am glad
9 that everyone is able to attend today.
10
The invocation will be given by
11 Mr. John Johnson.
12
MR. JOHNSON: Let us pray. Dear
13 Heavenly Father, we are so thankful
14 for you loving us. As we begin our
15 state conservation advisory board
16 meeting, we pray for our members and
17 leaders.
18
Lord, please give us your peace
19 and refresh us in our weariness that
20 this may be a good day with much good
21 being accomplished.
22
Lord, we ask your blessings on
23 our meeting as our members meet
0005
1 together and work together for a
Page 3
2 better state in which to live and
3 work.
4
Help us to stand up under the
5 strains and tensions of problems and
6 decisions with which we are dealing.
7
Lord, you provide guidance,
8 protection and order in our world
9 through our leaders. We pray that you
10 will help our leaders to face the
11 problems that confront them by giving
12 them the wisdom greater than their
13 own.
14
Help our leaders be united to
15 find the right way to achieve a just
16 and lasting peace in our land all over
17 the world.
18
We come before you, Lord, on
19 behalf of all of our armed forces to
20 keep them safe and protect them from
21 our enemies and protect them from
22 accidents. Guard them both in body
23 and mind. Please bring them home
0006
1 safely to their families.
2
Please watch over us and give
3 each of us a safe trip to our home.
4
Lord, we pray for these in the
5 name of Jesus.
6
MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you,
7 Mr. Johnson.
8
I'd like to welcome to the
9 meeting this morning Commissioner Ron
10 Sparks to my right and Assistant
11 Commissioner Lawley. Welcome y'all.
12
The next in order of business, I
13 would like to call Mr. Barnett Lawley
14 to introduce the special advisory
15 board.
16
COMMISSIONER LAWLEY: First,
17 Commissioner Sparks, I would like to
18 welcome you to this meeting. We are
19 glad to have you.
20
I'd like to introduce Raymond
21 Jones, District 5 in the Huntsville
22 area. He was working with
Page 4
23 Dr. Strickland, a great outdoors man.
0007
1 He's been on this board before, and we
2 are very excited about having him
3 reign with us again on the advisory
4 board.
5
Louis, we will start with you.
6 If you don't mind, just tell everybody
7 your name.
8
MR. COLES: I'm Louis Coles,
9 Congressional District 2.
10
MR. LYNCH: Grant Lynch from
11 Congressional District 3.
12
MR. SMITH: Gaines Smith, I'm
13 state wide.
14
MR. JONES: Raymond Jones,
15 District 5.
16
MR. JOHNSON: Johnny Johnson,
17 District 7.
18
DR. STRICKLAND: Warren
19 Strickland, Congressional District 5.
20
DR. MAY: Wayne May, District 7.
21
MR. HATLEY: Bill Hatley,
22 District 1.
23
MR. CHAIRMAN: Let the record
0008
1 show that everyone is in attendance
2 except Mr. Self, who is having health
3 problems.
4
Mr. Hatley, for District 1, you
5 will have full authority of District 1
6 today.
7
MR. HATLEY: That's what I always
8 wanted.
9
MR. CHAIRMAN: The next order of
10 business, are there any corrections to
11 the minutes? We are going to have to
12 approve both minutes because we didn't
13 approve the February minutes at the
14 last meeting because they weren't
15 ready yet.
16
Are there any corrections to the
17 minutes of February 10th and March
18 10th?
19
(No response)
Page 5
20
MR. COLES: Move that they be
21 approved.
22
MR. CHAIRMAN: We have a motion,
23 and a second before we go to
0009
1 discussion. The motion is to approve
2 them.
3
Mr. Coles, do you have any
4 discussion?
5
MR. COLES: No, sir.
6
MR. HATLEY: Mr. Self asked to be
7 put on the record to show that he was
8 in attendance at the last meeting.
9
MR. CHAIRMAN: Let that be
10 corrected. Self was in attendance at
11 the last meeting.
12
Stand and approved as corrected.
13
The next order of business is the
14 public hearing. When you hear your
15 name called, please go to the
16 microphone and give your name and the
17 subject that you wish to speak upon.
18
I will remind you that you may
19 only speak at the time that you are
20 called, and any interference with the
21 speaker will not be tolerated.
22
Again, we have standing rules
23 that are available and enforced with
0010
1 our speakers who have a three-minute
2 limit. Robin will be giving us that
3 time.
4
If you are speaking on a subject
5 that you are giving new and good
6 thought, we will try to be very, very
7 fair with those time limits.
8
So the first speaker will be
9 Mr. William Kerlin from Madison
10 County.
11
MR. KERLIN: My name is William
12 Kerlin. I'm from Huntsville, Alabama.
13 What I would like to have the
14 committee look at is the deer
15 muzzleloader season.
16
I would like to see the season
Page 6
17 start on a Saturday and go through
18 Friday to give them, the people that
19 can't get out on weekdays, a chance to
20 go out on weekends for the
21 muzzleloader season. That way
22 everybody will get a chance to hunt
23 during the muzzleloader season. The
0011
1 muzzleloader season is in November.
2 That's it.
3
MR. CHAIRMAN: Very good, sir,
4 thank you.
5
Second will be Mr. Randy Yeargan
6 from Chilton County.
7
MR. YEARGAN: I'm Randy Yeargan,
8 Chilton County appearing for the board
9 members of the board of the -- I have
10 got one quick thing I want to ask.
11 Some of our members of the board want
12 to ask for an amendment to the
13 regulations concerning carrying two
14 weapons in a stand is currently legal
15 in Alabama, carrying both a gun and
16 bow during gun deer season in the
17 state, and it's not legal to carry a
18 gun and bow to stand or a blind period
19 for turkey season. And they wanted me
20 to ask for a consideration to amend
21 that to where you can carry both a gun
22 and bow to a stand during turkey
23 season or to a blind as well as during
0012
1 gun deer season.
2
MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Yeargan, does
3 your organization have -- is that your
4 organization?
5
MR. YEARGAN: Yes. That's an
6 organization. I want to ask for that
7 to change it to where you can carry
8 both a gun and a bow.
9
MR. CHAIRMAN: Okay. All the
10 board will have a discussion on that
11 today, so it will be brought up.
12
Any other discussions with the
13 board, Mr. Yeargan?
Page 7
14
MR. YEARGAN: No.
15
16 Mr. Yeargan.
17
The next speaker will be Mike
18 Goorch. Excuse me if I pronounce it
19 wrong. Mike Goorch from Limestone
20 County.
21
MR. GOORCH: Good morning, sir.
22 My name is Mike Goorch from Limestone
23 County. I represent the Elkmont Lions
0013
1 Club.
2
I'm here to ask that the opening
3 day of dove season be established
4 somewhere between the first day of
5 September and the second weekend in
6 September. The primary reason for
7 that is my club has a fund-raising
8 event, actually three fund-raising
9 events each year, the first of which
10 is a dove shoot. And we also have our
11 second event, which is scheduled a
12 year in advance which follows luckily
13 about the end of September. It is a
14 10k run.
15
We support a foundation in
16 Huntsville, Birmingham with thousands
17 of dollars contributions, and each
18 year we perform over a thousand eye
19 and hearing exams for county schools.
20 And without fund-raising, we can't
21 perform those events. So that's why
22 we ask for the change of the dove
23 season to help. Thank you.
0014
1
MR. CHAIRMAN: Very good. Thank
2 you very much.
3
The next speaker will be Mr. Rick
4 Moss from Limestone.
5
MR. MOSS: I'm Ricky Moss from
6 Limestone County. I too am asking
7 about the change for dove season. I
8 work with the youth dove hunters, I
9 guess the last six years since it was
10 established in 2001.
Page 8
11
And you know the dove are not
12 like us. They react to weather.
13 Usually we have a cool front that
14 comes in at least the second week of
15 September. Around here it's normally
16 3rd or 4th, 5th of September pushing
17 aside. We would like to ask that you
18 maybe make the dove season open the
19 first week, no later than the second.
20 Thank you.
21
MS. NUMMY: We have got to step
22 up to the mic. We are having trouble
23 hearing.
0015
1
MR. CHAIRMAN: The next speaker
2 is Harlan Starr from Cherokee County.
3
MR. STARR: Mr. Chairman, I too
4 would like to voice my opinion about
5 the proposed 22nd of September dove
6 season. In my part of the state that
7 is way too late. Typically as the
8 gentleman before me mentioned, we do
9 have a cool front and the dove leave.
10 We need to open dove season either the
11 first or second Saturday in September.
12 22nd is too late. And I would like
13 y'all to consider moving that proposed
14 change. Appreciate it.
15
16 Mr. Moss.
17
The next speaker is Mr. Hal
18 Swartz from Limestone.
19
MR. SWARTZ: My name is Hal
20 Swartz from Limestone County. I would
21 like to address the issue of dove
22 season and the time proposed. I would
23 like to see it move back from
0016
1 September 22nd to the 1st, no later
2 than then 8th of September. I work
3 with many youth groups, and we have
4 these hunts for them. If we don't
5 have the date moved back, the birds
6 won't be there, and we won't have a
7 harvest for the youth. This is a
Page 9
8 training and learning experience.
9
Also, in Limestone County we have
10 many retailers and wholesalers in
11 businesses that help sponsor and
12 donate shells and things. This would
13 be very limited, and we wouldn't be
14 able to get them because if there are
15 no doves, we wouldn't have the
16 participation. A lot of our volunteer
17 fire departments and other volunteer
18 organizations rely on these dove hunts
19 also. If you don't move the date back
20 in Limestone County and the northern
21 part of Alabama, they won't have money
22 or funds, for example, the volunteer
23 fire department which they rely on
0017
1 quite heavily for their income.
2
Also, you will be sending people
3 out of state, Tennessee, for example.
4 First we would be losing the income.
5 Also the state would be losing income
6 on the sale of licenses. If people
7 realize the doves are not going to be
8 there, the licenses won't be bought or
9 they might be bought at a later time
10 shifting the revenue the state might
11 respect.
12
Thank you all very much.
13
14 Mr. Swartz.
15
The next speaker will be Paul
16 Unabler from Madison.
17
MR. UNABLER: Good morning. My
18 name is Paul Unabler. I'm from
19 Huntsville, Madison County. This is
20 not the first time. It won't be the
21 last time.
22
Again, I represent 70 other
23 hunters here from Madison County.
0018
1 What I would like to talk about is the
2 start of the dove season, September
3 22nd. For North Alabama it is way too
4 late. The birds are gone.
Page 10
5
For a state this size, maybe we
6 want to consider a split dove season
7 for the northern and southern zones of
8 the state.
9
I would like to propose set it as
10 the second Saturday of the month and
11 just hold it to that so everybody in
12 all the organizations can have that as
13 a starting date like some of the
14 others. A lot of specific
15 organizations raise their funds with
16 that. So by having September 22nd, I
17 think it is going to be a big impact,
18 not only on the hunters, but on the
19 other organizations in the state.
20
Thank you.
21
22 you.
23
Next speaker will be Mr. Will
0019
1 Ainsworth from Marshall County.
2
MR. AINSWORTH: Gentlemen of the
3 board. It is good to have you guys in
4 North Alabama. What I came to talk
5 about was buck limits.
6
I am Will Ainsworth from Marshall
7 County, Guntersville, Alabama. We run
8 a small commercial hunting operation,
9 and I just want to let y'all know that
10 I think it will be good for our
11 business and also the state if that
12 were to pass. We are in favor of
13 that. I just want to let y'all know
14 that. Thank you.
15
MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you.
16
The next speaker will be Ray
17 Angel from Lauderdale County.
18
MR. ANGEL: I am Ray Angel from
19 Lauderdale County. I'd like to voice
20 my opinion on deer hunting. I oppose
21 the three-buck limit, but I do agree
22 with a six point or above. I would
23 like to see a six point or above on
0020
1 deer hunting.
Page 11
2
Thank you.
3
MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you very
4 much, Mr. Ainsworth.
5
The next speaker will be Mr. Stan
6 Gossett from Lauderdale County.
7
MR. GOSSETT: I'm Stan Gossett
8 from Lauderdale County. I would like
9 to go on the record opposing the
10 three-buck limit. I think -- I do
11 respect the efforts to improve Alabama
12 deer herd. I think this better be
13 served by imposing an emphasized
14 limit. To continue to encourage our
15 youth, I think we need to weigh that
16 limit with any (unintelligible) that
17 we might have.
18
Restricted number of bucks taken
19 per year is going to be a very
20 difficult regulation for our
21 conservation officers to enforce, and
22 I think the emphasized limit would be
23 more easily regulated.
0021
1
Our conservation officers are
2 already pushed to the limit in
3 regulations, and let's not add any
4 other responsibilities to their
5 workload.
6
We need to work, all work in
7 making Alabama a better place.
8
9 Mr. Gossett.
10
The next speaker will be
11 Mr. Philip Hester, state wide.
12
MR. HESTER: Thank you to the
13 board for letting me speak before you
14 today. I really appreciate
15 Mr. Barnett Lawley and Mr. Moultrie in
16 what you are trying to do. I spoke to
17 the committee last year. It's good to
18 speak to you again.
19
I represent the Central Alabama
20 branch of Quality Deer Management
21 Association based in Birmingham. We
22 are here to support the
Page 12
23 recommendations of the deer advisory
0022
1 panel. They give you three
2 recommendations. We would like to
3 support any of the three that you
4 choose.
5
We feel like any effort we can
6 put forth to support changing our buck
7 structure is going to improve the herd
8 long term, and that's one of the main
9 purposes.
10
I would also like to recall the
11 gentleman's statement about the
12 extending the muzzleloader season.
13
As deer managers we try to
14 harvest the doe as early in the year,
15 and that will give us a good
16 opportunity to do that. So that's all
17 that I have to say.
18
Any questions?
19
MR. CHAIRMAN: No questions.
20 Thank you, sir.
21
22 Mr. Jerry Hinson from Jackson County.
23
MR. HINSON: I'm Jerry Hinson. I
0023
1 just want to say I'm for the
2 three-buck system. I head count. I
3 think our buck/doe ratio is still
4 (unintelligible). In fact, I would
5 like to see quit taking bucks. I'm
6 seeing bucks still chasing does in
7 February when I'm rabbit hunting. We
8 have got too many does and not enough
9 bucks. I would like to limit that
10 number of bucks that are killed. And
11 at the same time, it's -- if we are
12 trying to kill more does, some small
13 bucks are going to get killed by
14 accident. I know that and I realize
15 that. But if we keep killing our
16 bucks when they are a year and a half
17 old, we are never going to have
18 (unintelligible). They have got to
19 get older to get bigger.
Page 13
20
I'm not so much of a trophy
21 person, it is just that I would like
22 to see that buck/doe ratio improve. I
23 think we will have a bigger, better
0024
1 deer if we could do that.
2
Also, I'd like to see the season
3 go through February. I think at some
4 point we need to get that buck/doe
5 ratio back in to where we have a -- we
6 don't know when our rut is now. It
7 starts in December and ends in April
8 some time. That's what I want to say.
9 I'm interested in (unintelligible).
10 Thank you.
11
12
The next speaker will be Currun
13 Humphrey from Madison County.
14
MR. HUMPHREY: I'm Currun
15 Humphrey.
16
MS. NUMMY: You have got to step
17 up.
18
MR. HUMPHREY: I wanted to
19 address the subject of the proposed
20 tagging system for, I assume, big
21 game; that is all big game. I'm not
22 familiar with the details in full. It
23 might be something in there that would
0025
1 let me be for it. But as I see it
2 now, I will not be for that.
3
The first place, it's obvious
4 that it's going to be an additional
5 expense to the department to enforce
6 that regulation. I can see that you
7 have to buy some computer probably and
8 hire different people to keep up with
9 the tag requirement.
10
I see it as being a burden, an
11 added burden on the hunter. I hunt
12 some up in Tennessee which has a
13 tagging requirement, and if you get a
14 big game, that includes turkey, first
15 concern you have got to have is comply
16 with the tagging requirement. And
Page 14
17 that requires you to know where the
18 tagging system is and load up your
19 game and take it to the checking
20 station. That's the first thing that
21 you have got to be concerned about.
22
A tagging system here in this
23 state, for example, if applies to a
0026
1 person's own property, which it would
2 I'm sure, would mean that if you
3 wanted to go turkey hunting here on
4 your own land, you would have to be
5 concerned with complying to the
6 tagging requirements. In other words,
7 if you wanted to get up early in the
8 morning and go hunting, you have got
9 to figure in there that you have got
10 to go to the tagging station when you
11 get a turkey. So that's going to take
12 up close to a half a day.
13
Once you get to the tagging
14 station, you comply with the
15 regulations regarding tagging, and
16 then you have got to decide what to do
17 with your game. Do you go back and
18 hunt, or do you take it to the
19 processor, or what do you do with it?
20 So that is a problem.
21
With regard to turkey hunting,
22 you know it's real easy to dress your
23 own turkeys. But if you have a
0027
1 tagging department in warm weather,
2 you have to take them to the tagging
3 station. Then when you get there,
4 what are you going to do? Are you
5 going to go back and hunt or take care
6 of your turkey?
7
I have here the Tennessee
8 regulations. Of course, as we all
9 know, regulation books get thicker and
10 thicker every year. That's the case
11 in Tennessee.
12
Let me read you what their
13 tagging department is right now. It
Page 15
14 is unlawful to move, transport or
15 field dress any big game animal except
16 for thorough hauling without
17 invalidating or attaching properly
18 completed temporary kill tags. If
19 additional animals are to be harvested
20 on that day, the hunter is not
21 required to stop hunting and tag the
22 animal until he or she is ready to
23 move, transport or field dress the
0028
1 animal. At the conclusion of the hunt
2 all harvested animals must be tagged,
3 must be transported to the nearest
4 tagging station on that calendar day.
5
Well, you know, that's pretty
6 complicated. You are allowed to kill
7 two turkeys in the fall on the same
8 day in Tennessee. You catch that
9 first turkey, are you going to tag
10 that one or are you going to field
11 dress it? What are you going to do
12 with it? And then what are you going
13 to do, continue on hunting for the
14 second turkey or not?
15
MR. CHAIRMAN: Time.
16
MR. HUMPHREY: Let me say this,
17 and I will be done. Tennessee has -18 to give the hunter 36 hours to comply.
19
20 Mr. Humphrey.
21
The next speaker will be Philip
22 Kizzire, Fayette County.
23
MR. KIZZIRE: Good morning. I'm
0029
1 Phillip Kizzire from Fayette County.
2 I'm here opposing the tagging -- the
3 three deer limit. I don't see how we
4 can enforce that because we don't have
5 enough game wardens to enforce the
6 laws that we have in the books now,
7 and we are going to add a law to the
8 books and add a burden to the game
9 wardens.
10
Also, you are going to make some
Page 16
11 of your better hunters probably quit
12 hunting. They are going to kill their
13 three-buck limit. They are not going
14 to kill a doe anyway. So you are
15 going to take the man out of the woods
16 when they can be out there helping
17 enforce the laws or seek people
18 breaking laws and reporting them. So
19 I think we need to re-think that and
20 not do the three-buck limit. Thank
21 you.
22
MR. HATLEY: Mr. Kizzire, you
23 hunt in Fayette County?
0030
1
MR. KIZZIRE: Yes, sir.
2
MR. HATLEY: How many bucks did
3 you kill last year?
4
MR. KIZZIRE: Two.
5
MR. HATLEY: Two. What was the
6 average -- are you in a club?
7
MR. KIZZIRE: Yes, sir.
8
MR. HATLEY: What would you
9 figure was the average number of bucks
10 killed by each individual in your
11 club?
12
MR. KIZZIRE: Probably whole
13 total of deer that was killed,
14 probably two deer per person in the
15 club.
16
MR. HATLEY: Two per person.
17 Okay.
18
19 Mr. Kizzrie.
20
The next speaker will be Trey
21 Montgomery, Greene County.
22
MR. MONTGOMERY: Thank you,
23 Board, on allowing us to speak. My
0031
1 name is Trey Montgomery. I'm from
2 Greene County. I own a little, small
3 hunting operation there. We are all
4 in support of a three-buck limit. I'm
5 also a state chairman for the Alabama
6 Farmers Federation, and our whole
7 organization is behind the three-buck
Page 17
8 limit.
9
Also, in our business perception
10 is a big thing. We are losing hunters
11 to Mississippi. I think
12 Mississippi -- I'd like to see that
13 pass.
14
Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
15
16 you, Mr. Montgomery.
17
18 Mr. James Moses from Cleburne County.
19
MR. MOSES: I'm James Moses. I
20 live in Huntsville.
21
I'm a casual deer hunter. I like
22 to go to the woods. I like to shoot
23 the first -- I'm not a headhunter. A
0032
1 lot of the does I have shot turned out
2 to be bucks when I got up to them. I
3 don't want to see any kind of an
4 antler restriction imposed on them.
5 It's hard to examine a deer's head
6 stuck down in a thicket to see how
7 many points he has if any. I'm very
8 much opposed to antler restrictions.
9
In regard to the three-buck
10 limit, I never killed three bucks in a
11 year and don't care to.
12
However, the cost on implementing
13 a tag system are -- I feel like the
14 benefits of a three buck system are
15 hypothetical.
16
That's all that I have to say.
17
18 Mr. Moses.
19
20 Mr. Jesse Pigg from Lauderdale County.
21
MR. PIGG: Good morning. I'm
22 Mr. Jesse Pigg from Lauderdale County.
23 I'm here to oppose the three-buck
0033
1 limit. I believe that it would be
2 best to put three point on one side
3 state wide or we can exempt antler
4 deer from this. If we exempt antler
Page 18
5 deer, it will give people a chance to
6 keep hunting after they kill the three
7 bucks, which is the way Tennessee
8 does.
9
He talked about Tennessee, but he
10 didn't -- they have got a three-buck
11 limit. I hunt Tennessee too, and one
12 particular land I hunt on, you can
13 kill six bucks bonus deer, above. So
14 we need to do something like that so
15 that we can keep the hunters in the
16 woods, not just put a limit on them
17 and make them get out of the woods.
18 That way they won't be shooting any
19 does. I won't hunt after I kill my
20 three bucks.
21
So I wish you would consider
22 either putting restrictions on the
23 antler state wide or leave it like it
0034
1 is. I think it will be better off.
2
Thank you.
3
MR. LYNCH: How many bucks did
4 you kill last year?
5
MR. PIGG: Seven.
6
MR. LYNCH: In Alabama?
7
MR. PIGG: Yeah. I killed three
8 on Lauderdale management.
9
MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Pigg, please
10 speak in the mic.
11
MR. PIGG: I'm not a doe hunter.
12 I just shoot does one or two a year.
13 I don't care about getting does.
14
Anymore questions?
15
DR. STRICKLAND: What was the age
16 you caught?
17
MR. PIGG: We have got a three
18 point six system, three points on one
19 side of Lauderdale County on the
20 management there. They all have three
21 points.
22
DR. STRICKLAND: So you think two
23 and a half?
0035
1
MR. PIGG: Two and a half and
Page 19
2 three and a half.
3
Now, I killed one buck at Black
4 Warrior that was three points. I
5 killed him with a bow. That was the
6 youngest deer I killed.
7
MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Hatley, do you
8 have a question?
9
MR. HATLEY: Yes.
10
Do you pull your jaw bone to age
11 your deer?
12
MR. PIGG: No. They age them.
13
MR. HATLEY: You don't do
14 anything yourself?
15
MR. PIGG: I can. I can age
16 them.
17
MR. HATLEY: I'm sure you can.
18 I'm saying did you age any of your
19 deer yourself?
20
MR. PIGG: Yeah.
21
MR. HATLEY: So what would you
22 figure the average age of those deer?
23
MR. PIGG: Two and a half, three
0036
1 and a half.
2
Mr. HATLEY: What is your logic
3 for not shooting a doe?
4
MR. PIGG: I was raised to not
5 shoot a doe. I have been hunting 45
6 years, and it is just hard to break a
7 habit. It was a sin to shoot a doe
8 back when I started hunting. It was
9 not just against the law; it was a
10 sin.
11
MS. NUMMY: Quiet.
12
DR. STRICKLAND: It's a sin not
13 to shoot them know. Okay. It is
14 changed. You can change it.
15
MR. PIGG: I admit we need to
16 shoot more doe. When you take the
17 hunter out of the woods, they are not
18 going to be there to -19
DR. STRICKLAND: Shoot the doe
20 first.
21
MR. PIGG: That is a good point
22 now. Management hunting in Tennessee,
Page 20
23 they say you have got to shoot the doe
0037
1 before you kill the buck. So you
2 might consider that, too. But I would
3 like to see it left like it is or
4 exempt antler deer or have a three
5 point state wide on one side.
6
MR. CHAIRMAN: Any question,
7 Mr. Hatley?
8
MR. HATLEY: Shoot the doe if -9
MR. PIGG: I will shoot a doe if
10 you put it that way. If you leave it
11 as it is, I will start hunting doe.
12
MR. CHAIRMAN: Any other
13 questions?
14
Thank you, Mr. Pigg.
15
MR. PIGG: Thank you, y'all.
16
17 will be Mr. Mark Thomas from Shelby
18 County.
19
Is that Dr. Thomas?
20
MR. THOMAS: Well, it's -- I'm
21 Mark Thomas, certified forestry,
22 certified wild life biologist,
23 president of -0038
1
Commissioner Lawley, Commissioner
2 Sparks, Chairman Moultrie, Honorable
3 Commissioners, good morning. I
4 appreciate the opportunity to be with
5 you this morning. I just celebrated
6 my 10th year on the national board of
7 directors or the Quality Deer
8 Management Association. I'm currently
9 serving as vice chairman of the board.
10
I appreciate your dedication and
11 commitment in serving on the Advisory
12 Board.
13
Our organization, QDMA, has grown
14 from 2,000 members to 50,000 members
15 over the last ten years, and on behalf
16 of the national QDMA, we fully support
17 the implementation of buck limits in
18 Alabama. We support all three options
19 recommended by the nine-member deer
Page 21
20 advisory panel in the following order
21 of preferences: Two-buck limit, both
22 hunter choice; three-buck limit, one
23 form side; and three-buck limit all
0039
1 hunter choice.
2
Must hunters recognize that a
3 healthy deer herd is in balance with
4 respect to the buck/doe ratio and the
5 buck age structure.
6
Thanks to your guidance, the
7 buck/doe ratio is nearing equilibrium.
8 We have seen tremendous non gain
9 impact over the last three years. It
10 is best (unintelligible). Song bird
11 in tropical migrants and an increase
12 in plant diversity in our state.
13
The buck limit will move our deer
14 herd in a positive direction towards
15 achieving a balance buck age
16 structure. This has worked virtually
17 everywhere it has been tried.
18
In Mississippi a four-point rule
19 was implemented in 1995, and hunters
20 have realized a four-fold increase in
21 the harvest of buck four and a half
22 years old and older.
23
In Georgia a two-buck limit was
0040
1 implemented in 2002, one of which had
2 to have four points on the side. In
3 Georgia hunters have realized a
4 three-fold increase in harvesting
5 bucks three and a half years old and
6 older.
7
(Unintelligible) complaints have
8 been reduced, and deer vehicle
9 collisions have stabilized.
10
So the National QDMA report
11 implementing buck limits in Alabama,
12 you are doing the right thing at the
13 right time. We encourage you to move
14 forward and proceed, and we appreciate
15 your courage and your leadership.
16
Thank you very much.
Page 22
17
18 much.
19
20 Mr. Keith Witherow from Madison
21 County.
22
MR. WITHEROW: I am Keith
23 Witherow from Madison County.
0041
1
I would first like to thank the
2 board for allowing me to address them
3 on a pretty debated topic, a
4 three-buck limit that had been
5 originally proposed.
6
I'm here today not only for
7 myself but also to represent 97 other
8 hunters in Madison County that signed
9 a petition to support the three-buck
10 limit here in Alabama.
11
You know we feel like the
12 three-buck limit is definitely a big
13 step in the right direction towards
14 managing the whole deer herd over all
15 in the state of Alabama. We feel like
16 it will have very positive effect on
17 the deer herd as this gentleman just
18 mentioned. You know it's going to
19 help the buck/doe ratio. It is going
20 to have an overall age structure on
21 the buck therefore giving hunters each
22 year a chance to actually
23 (unintelligible).
0042
1
It is going to -- we feel like it
2 is definitely going to help the
3 hunters who do like to take more than
4 three deer per year. It's going to
5 cause them to start shooting more does
6 rather than the young bucks like has
7 been done in the past.
8
And, you know, I would also like
9 to point out another thing. Alabama,
10 as most of you I'm sure know, has some
11 of the best habitat for whitetail and
12 has some of the best genetics around
13 all across the country and especially
Page 23
14 in the southeastern states.
15
But, you know, in the past this
16 potentially has not been a -- in my
17 opinion wasted, you know, because the
18 way the law is written right now, a
19 hunter can take a buck a day off his
20 hunting season which just comes out to
21 a ridiculous number if you add that
22 up. You know we feel like this is
23 definitely a step in the right
0043
1 direction. We hope it passes.
2
I would like to close by asking
3 the board to sincerely please consider
4 this proposal what it hasn't in the
5 past.
6
DR. STRICKLAND: We have one more
7 question. Are you involved in quality
8 deer hunting?
9
MR. WITHEROW: I'm not in quality
10 deer hunting, QDMA right now, but,
11 yes.
12
DR. STRICKLAND: How many buck
13 did you shoot last year?
14
MR. WITHEROW: I shot three
15 bucks.
16
DR. STRICKLAND: How old were
17 they?
18
MR. WITHEROW: The youngest was
19 three and a half. The oldest probably
20 five and a half.
21
DR. STRICKLAND: What weapon did
22 you use?
23
MR. WITHEROW: Bow. Bow hunting
0044
1 only.
2
DR. STRICKLAND: All right.
3
MR. WITHEROW: Anywhere from -4 the youngest one, you know, was around
5 115, 118. The biggest I believe was
6 136 and a half, something.
7
So you know a lot of the
8 signatures on the petition are bow
9 hunters. You know these aren't guys
10 that you know are out there trying to
Page 24
11 shoot a lot of deer. These are guys
12 that want to shoot big deer with bow
13 and arrow. Guys that really care
14 about the size of deer and the overall
15 health and quality of deer.
16
DR. STRICKLAND: How many does
17 did you shoot?
18
MR. WITHEROW: I can't count them
19 all. Probably 12, 13.
20
DR. STRICKLAND: Very good.
21 Thank you.
22
MR. WITHEROW: I'm not -- if I
23 shoot a buck, I will keep hunting
0045
1 does.
2
DR. STRICKLAND: He is probably
3 one of the top buck bow hunters in the
4 State of Alabama. I think he's got
5 five or six -6
7 Mr. Witherow.
8
9 Mr. Donny Wood from Lee County.
10
MR. WOOD: I'd like to thank you
11 for the opportunity to address the
12 board of commissioners regarding
13 institution buck limit.
14
My name is Donny Wood. I'm a
15 registered forester and certified
16 wildlife biologist, and I represent
17 Plum Creek. I am a landowner. I own
18 more than 100,000 acres in the state.
19 I'm here to provide support for the
20 two-buck limit for various reasons. I
21 think first it sends a better message.
22
There are many that might say
23 that education is the best way to
0046
1 change buck harvest tendencies. And I
2 agree. I agree that education is a
3 wonderful tool, but how can any
4 educational program compete with the
5 very powerful, very strong message
6 that a one-buck-a-day limit provides.
7
I think another reason I support
Page 25
8 it is because customers want it. I
9 worked for about ten years managing
10 50,000 acres of deer management
11 cooperative in eastern Alabama and
12 western Georgia, and hunters flock to
13 those areas. The main reason they
14 were interested is because they
15 couldn't do it on the leases that they
16 had. These cooperatives were 3- to
17 5,000 acres. When a club would come
18 in, they only had a lease -- you know
19 they only had a lease for 40 in that
20 cooperative, but they couldn't do it
21 outside of the cooperative. And the
22 reason they said they couldn't is
23 because their neighbors were able to
0047
1 harvest anything that they wanted to
2 so they couldn't manage for a
3 better cooperative.
4
I think the benefit exceeds the
5 cost. The two-buck limit will reduce
6 buck harvest by about 40,000 animals.
7 These are animals that will move on to
8 the next age class.
9
The buck limit will only impact a
10 very small percentage of your hunters.
11 As most as these gentlemen -- the one
12 gentleman talked about his club -13 most people aren't killing more than
14 two more than two bucks now.
15
Of course, it is going to result
16 in better herd dynamics, better
17 buck/doe ratio, better age structure,
18 and over all quality of your animal
19 will increase. Thank you.
20
21 much, Mr. Wood.
22
Any questions of Mr. Wood?
23
The next speaker will be Kurby
0048
1 Farris from Fayette County.
2
MR. FARRIS: My name is Kurby
3 Farris. I live in Walker County. I
4 own land in -Page 26
5
MS. NUMMY: You have to speak up
6 to the mic.
7
MR. FARRIS: Sorry. Kurby
8 Farris. I live in Walker County. I
9 hunt on land in Fayette County. I
10 appreciate the opportunity to speak to
11 the board.
12
I'm here to address the illegal
13 use of dog deer hunting in Fayette
14 County. The time has changed, and I
15 think it's time to for the state to
16 change the laws -17
MS. NUMMY: You have to pull the
18 mic down.
19
MR. FARRIS: I'm a little short.
20
I think everybody is here for the
21 same reason. We all like to hunt, but
22 I think we need to respect each
23 other's ways of hunting, and I'm
0049
1 asking the board for that support to
2 change the laws, whatever it takes.
3 Private landowners need some help in
4 Fayette County. Thank you.
5
6 much, Mr. Farris.
7
The next speaker will be Mr. D.O.
8 Harden from Fayette County.
9
MS. NUMMY: Quiet, please.
10
MR. CHAIRMAN: If the information
11 we call out is incorrect, please feel
12 free to correct it.
13
MR. HARDEN: Gentlemen, good
14 morning. I'm Mr. Harden. I'm a
15 landowner in Fayette County. I
16 appreciate the opportunity to come
17 before you this morning.
18
You have heard over and over what
19 our problems are in Fayette County. I
20 don't think there is any reason to
21 keep reliving that. But the most
22 important thing is not that the dog
23 hunters are intentionally running over
0050
1 our own property, not theirs, which
Page 27
2 they are even though many of them may
3 try not to.
4
But we are here -- we are here to
5 have a return of our property rights,
6 our private property rights, that we
7 don't have any longer. And, you know,
8 it's important that we have a place to
9 go to be able to solve that problem,
10 and this is the only place we have to
11 go.
12
When our safety, our own property
13 is compromised, when our private
14 property rights are violated by people
15 who are hunting deer with dogs, then
16 something needs to be done, and it's
17 time. It's past time.
18
I think it's -- it would be a
19 tragedy if a complete ban of dog
20 hunting in Fayette County was not
21 brought forth. We hope you will do
22 that, and we appreciate your
23 consideration. Thank you.
0051
1
2 Mr. Harden.
3
The next speaker will be Mr. Bill
4 Herrin in Fayette County.
5
MR. HERRIN: I'm Bill Herrin. I
6 live in Walker County.
7
MS. NUMMY: You have got to get
8 closer.
9
MR. HERRIN: I live in Walker
10 County and own property in Fayette
11 County, and it is family property that
12 I grew up on.
13
Approximately 60 years ago my
14 father, my dad, owned those hills and
15 hollows around Boxes Creek and Warren
16 Creek near Highway 13, County Road 44,
17 24, and 102.
18
This is the particular area that
19 we are talking about where the
20 problems exist that we are addressing
21 today.
22
I appreciate the opportunity to
Page 28
23 speak to each of you. That you will
0052
1 take your time to try to resolve the
2 differences that we have concerning
3 dog hunting and stock hunting.
4
But during those years when I
5 traveled that area six, seven years
6 old up until I grew up and left that
7 part of the country at about 18, I
8 could hunt anywhere in the country
9 without any permit, without having any
10 permission. Just borrow the
11 neighbor's dog and just have complete
12 freedom to hunt the country.
13
There was one specific difference
14 then that exist now that was not
15 there. There was very few hunters. I
16 could hunt all day. I could take that
17 bird dog and leave in the morning and
18 come back in the evening and not see
19 another group hunting.
20
Later, rabbit hunting the same.
21 If we had a group that hunted the same
22 animal, they worked it one weekend and
23 we worked it another weekend, never a
0053
1 conflict. Never any problems
2 whatsoever.
3
Now, in this particular area, the
4 acreage and farm are divided into
5 relatively small areas. Therefore,
6 without -- if a club has 1,500 acres.
7 It's 200 acres over here, 400 acres
8 over here, and then maybe we are
9 sitting right between them. Creek
10 running east and west.
11 (Unintelligible) was running south and
12 north, jump the fence, got across the
13 property where they come.
14
Okay. Our children and our
15 people, our family hunts this
16 property. Off on weekends, and then
17 this is the same time that all of the
18 dog activities are going on. I know
19 they don't intend to run through our
Page 29
20 property, but just the logics are, if
21 the deer runs, it is going to cross.
22
We believe that our rights are
23 being infringed on. It interferes
0054
1 with those kids' opportunity to kill a
2 deer.
3
I've never shot a deer. I love
4 to see them. I like to photograph
5 them. I like to watch them as I eat
6 breakfast, whatever. But to have my
7 rights infringed on now -8
MS. NUMMY: Time is up.
9
MR. CHAIRMAN: Please continue.
10 Go ahead.
11
MR. HERREN: The way the rights
12 are infringed on is that not a single
13 one of them pays any property tax,
14 plants the green field, pays for the
15 insurance, the fertilizer that it
16 takes to grow the habitat that will
17 produce a quality hunter's dream.
18
We believe that if they are not
19 contributing anything to it
20 whatsoever, that the dogs ought to be
21 controlled and kept in the areas where
22 it is conducive to hunt without
23 interfering on another man's right.
0055
1
I thank you for the opportunity
2 to address you. Thank you for that
3 extra 30 seconds. We just appreciate
4 your efforts to resolve this issue.
5
6
The next speaker will be Paul
7 Jeffreys from Lamar County.
8
MR. JEFFREYS: Members of board,
9 I'm speaking to you today. My name is
10 Paul Jeffreys, Lamar County. A few
11 years ago -- it's been several years
12 ago now that I came before you with
13 the same complaints that the
14 landowners of Fayette County are
15 having, and we asked for a ban on dog
16 deer hunting in Lamar, Marion and
Page 30
17 Franklin counties. It has done
18 nothing but improve the experience and
19 way of life in these three counties,
20 and a lot of people have come up here
21 today to ask for buck limits to be
22 able to manage their deer herd. Since
23 we received our ban on dog deer
0056
1 hunting, I have sat and watched and
2 let more bucks walk because I can
3 manage it. I planted food plots every
4 year in the spring. The deer are
5 there. Nobody is infringing on my
6 private landowner rights, and I'm
7 allowed to utilize my property the way
8 I want to with my children.
9
It has been nothing but a
10 complete success story. I would like
11 to thank each one of y'all on the
12 restriction on dog deer hunting in
13 those three counties.
14
15
The next speaker will be Dalbert
16 Marsh of Coffee County.
17
MR. MARSH: Thank you,
18 Mr. Chairman. My name is Dalbert
19 Marsh, and my farm is located at
20 3167 County Road 625 in Coffee County,
21 Alabama. That's the southeast section
22 of Coffee. In 2003 this board heard
23 the request of over 300 landowners
0057
1 from that area of the state, and you
2 granted us a ban against hunting with
3 dogs in the area.
4
I made this trip here today also
5 to tell what you a success it's been.
6 It really works. Our area is really
7 at peace. Landowners feel free to use
8 their land as they please including
9 hunting themselves, planting green
10 fields.
11
I'm a member of the Quality Deer
12 Management Association where we are
13 beginning to put some practices into
Page 31
14 place that we were never able to do
15 before, and our neighbors there are
16 very thankful of the fact they can now
17 use their land as they please.
18
For the first time in 15 years,
19 members of my family this past year
20 were able to kill and harvest deer off
21 of our own farm that we pay taxes and
22 have taken care of for years and years
23 and years and never been able to hunt
0058
1 because we were overrun by people who
2 were trespassing.
3
We now have young hunters in my
4 family. I have a son 26 years old,
5 and my brother has a son 25 years old.
6 They bought hunting licenses this year
7 for the first time because they can
8 now hunt on our own property, and I
9 appreciate that.
10
I grew up hunting with a father
11 and a grandfather, and I would like to
12 think a lot of young folks in Alabama
13 would continue to hunt with a father
14 and grandfather and learn the value of
15 wildlife.
16
Each time I have been before you,
17 it's to tell you a story of two or
18 three people in our community. And
19 I'm going to do that one more time as
20 I leave. One of them is a lady by the
21 name of Ms. Belle Withams (phonetic.)
22 She's now 95 years old. I think she
23 was maybe 92 when I talked to you
0059
1 before. She's a very active little
2 lady, and she works in her yard year
3 round now because she can. She can
4 get out there and do what she wants
5 without people running up and down the
6 road taking her valuable yard space
7 away.
8
I talked to you about a friend
9 named William Smith. He's an
10 African/American friend of mine that
Page 32
11 fought in Korea. He said that he had
12 never been through anything quite as
13 tough as dealing with this group of
14 folk that we had to deal with.
15
And I will also tell you about my
16 friend Ronnie Kinnington, who was
17 terrorized many times even to the
18 point of having the sheriff and your
19 enforcement people there to protect
20 him on many times.
21
And so I'm here today just to
22 tell you that this does work. It
23 works, and it sends a clear message
0060
1 out that if we will take it -- if you
2 will use these bans technically that
3 it will take care of problems. And
4 landowners do pay taxes, expenses, do
5 all of the things it takes to be a
6 landowner.
7
And I just thank you for the
8 right to ban use of our property and
9 all of the people in that area -10 thank you.
11
12 Mr. Marsh.
13
The next speaker will be Jack
14 Martin from Fayette County.
15
Mr. Mark, are you here?
16
Robin?
17
MS. NUMMY: Mr. Martin has
18 declined.
19
20 will be Mr. Robert Sawada.
21
MR. SAWADA: Good morning, ladies
22 and gentlemen. My name is Robert
23 Sawada. I live in Huntsville, and I'm
0061
1 a landowner in Perry County. The
2 problem I would like to address with
3 you is dog hunting. It's very
4 serious, very serious. I see them
5 come through with no respect for
6 private property.
7
I maintain five, two-acre food
Page 33
8 plots, which I spend a lot of money
9 on. I spend a lot of time, my son and
10 I. I have seen the dog hunters turn
11 the dogs loose and run everything off
12 of my property. Denying me the rights
13 for myself and my company that I have
14 with me, my son, the rights to hunt.
15 And that needs to be stopped.
16
The other thing is what they are
17 doing, they leave the dogs in the
18 woods. At night the dogs would run
19 all night chasing the game off of -20 they chase them clear out of several
21 counties.
22
The other thing is they leave the
23 dogs there. At the end of season,
0062
1 they leave the dogs there. They don't
2 take the dogs back because it's too
3 much for them to maintain the dogs,
4 the cost. And I go to my cabin every
5 year. When I go to the cabin, I see
6 one or two dogs or three dogs by my
7 cabin. I have a water trough,
8 drinking water.
9
The other thing they do, they use
10 buckshot. They wound the deer, and I
11 see the deer come by with a hind leg
12 or intestines hanging out. It is
13 terrible. I see them coming by, does
14 and bucks, foaming out of their mouth.
15 The dogs running these deer. This is
16 inhumane either to the dog or to the
17 animals. So we need to do something
18 serious about the dog hunters.
19
And like I say, I go out and I
20 spend a lot of money on taxes plus
21 maintaining the food plot, and I'm
22 sure that the game wardens are just as
23 much against it as we are, the
0063
1 landowners.
2
You see the dogs along the roads
3 after the hunting season laying there
4 or run over by cars or looking for a
Page 34
5 ride, for someone to pick them up. We
6 need serious -- I have addressed a
7 letter to the governor, Lieutenant
8 Governor to the board previously. I
9 had not received any response in
10 reference to the dogs. So I don't
11 know.
12
I saw them come through food plot
13 last hunting season. I was on my food
14 plot and my stand. The buck came out.
15 It was a ten-point buck. And before I
16 even picked up my rifle, the buck was
17 gone, and not even a minute later the
18 dog the size of a German Shepard came
19 out there, and he was stalking the
20 buck. Denied me the right to harvest
21 the buck.
22
MS. NUMMY: Time.
23
MR. SAWADA: Thank you very much.
0064
1
MR. JOHNSON: Where are you at in
2 Perry County?
3
MR. SAWADA: North Perry County
4 off Highway 23.
5
MR. JOHNSON: Thank you very
6 much.
7
MR. SAWADA: Thank you.
8
9
The next speaker will be Mr. John
10 Dover from Fayette County also.
11
MR. DOVER: Good morning. My
12 name is John Dover of Fayette County.
13 I addressed the board a couple of
14 times on the issue of dog hunting in
15 Fayette county.
16
I received petitions from people
17 supporting dog hunting. Also my
18 cousin, game warden. We didn't have a
19 single complaint in Fayette county
20 about dog hunting last year.
21
I asked this board the last time
22 we met in Spanish Fort to leave it to
23 the people of Fayette County to settle
0065
1 their differences between them.
Page 35
2
Since that time I spoke, not
3 speaking out of words. We have got
4 one of the biggest county chapter dog
5 hunters association. This form is not
6 only for the dog hunters, but for the
7 people having problems with the people
8 that are in this organization to
9 address those problems.
10
We approached all the dog hunting
11 clubs in Fayette County and they
12 expressed interest in joining our
13 organization. This adds another
14 internal policing mechanism to Fayette
15 County. I think it's time. That's
16 really all that I have to say.
17
I have some business cards being
18 printed up also right now for the
19 officers so that people will be able
20 to contact of this organization
21 Fayette County chapter so that we can
22 look at some of these problems.
23
MR. COLES: How many dog deer
0066
1 hunting clubs are in Fayette County?
2 Do you have any idea?
3
MR. DOVER: I had a rough count
4 of 25 when we listed off that we knew
5 of.
6
MR. COLES: How many of those 25
7 have already agreed to join the
8 Alabama Dog Hunters Association?
9
MR. DOVER: We have three that
10 have joined up now. And then
11 promised, we have about 20.
12
MR. HARBIN: I would like to ask
13 have you talked with any of these
14 landowners that are doing the
15 complaining about the dogs running
16 around on unfamiliar land?
17
MR. DOVER: I talked to Bill
18 Cook.
19
MR. HARBIN: What was the result?
20
MR. DOVER: Bill actually
21 approached -- I believe he had a
22 letter from the New Zion club. We
Page 36
23 have been in touch with The New Zion.
0067
1 They expressed interest in the
2 organization.
3
MR. HARBIN: How about these
4 people that are here today, Mr. Harden
5 and Mr. Herrin and several more over
6 there?
7
MR. DOVER: I would be glad to
8 speak with them.
9
MR. HARBIN: You haven't done it
10 yet?
11
MR. DOVER: No sir. I haven't
12 spoken with any of them.
13
14 Mr. Dover.
15
The next speaker will be Tim
16 Fields, Fayette County also.
17
MR. FIELDS: I'm Tim Fields.
18 Live in Fayette County, own 2,300
19 acres of land. We are dog hunters.
20 We appreciate you just leaving it like
21 it is. We lease about a thousand
22 acres. Try to stay on our own land
23 and do the best that we can.
0068
1 Appreciate it.
2
MR. HARBIN: How many acres did
3 you say you have?
4
MR. FIELDS: Sir?
5
MR. HARBIN: How many acres do
6 you have?
7
MR. FIELDS: 2,300.
8
MR. HARBIN: 2,300?
9
MR. FIELDS: Yes.
10
MR. HARBIN: And that is a
11 private club, I mean it is a regular
12 dog club?
13
MR. FIELDS: Yes, sir.
14
MR. HARBIN: Which one is that?
15
MR. FIELDS: Rose Hills Hunting
16 Club.
17
MR. HARBIN: Have you had any
18 dogs running on unfamiliar land?
19
MR. FIELDS: No, sir.
Page 37
20
MR. HARBIN: Thank you.
21
22 much, Mr. Fields.
23
Next speaker will be Mr. Don
0069
1 Knight.
2
MR. KNIGHT: Good morning,
3 gentlemen. I'm Don Knight. I'm the
4 state president of the Alabama Dog
5 Hunters Association, and I tell you I
6 hear things every meeting that never
7 seems to amaze me. I can remember
8 when a trophy in this state was a
9 deer, period. And now we are going
10 over and over to try to make the deer
11 even larger. Be careful what you do
12 on that line. I just want to throw
13 this out.
14
Lease land is extremely high now.
15 As we increase this and you take
16 trophies on a larger scale, you are
17 going to also increase the amounts of
18 lease that we pay for our land.
19
Please don't tell me that's not
20 happening because the lease on my club
21 goes from $20,000 this year to $45,000
22 next year. That's a rather large
23 increase. We don't blame the
0070
1 landowner. He's been offered money.
2 He can get it.
3
All I'm telling you is our state
4 is making a positive effort to make
5 our deer herd as good as it can be. I
6 continue to see larger deer each and
7 every year. I don't know why we need
8 to change any of our laws.
9
If our biologist ever tell us
10 that we need a law on buck limits,
11 horns, or anything else, we will
12 support it wholeheartedly.
13
Okay. We don't see that. We
14 continue to see 200-pound deer coming
15 off our properties, and other clubs
16 are seeing the same. I think that's
Page 38
17 great.
18
Fayette County. I talked with
19 those people up there. And as I told
20 you, we have a chapter going very
21 strong in that county now. These
22 people are willing and will put forth
23 every effort to police themselves and
0071
1 try to help these problems come along.
2 As the state level, we have told our
3 chapter that it's beginning and
4 working on it. We have told them to
5 send no funds to the state. We have
6 asked them to put the listing in the
7 paper where the people can call and
8 talk to this board. And also that we
9 have set up there to try to remedy
10 these problems.
11
Has it taken place yet? In a
12 small degree. It won't take place
13 until hunting season comes up again.
14
Please, I'm asking you to give
15 these people an opportunity to police
16 themselves, to help the people in the
17 community. They are going to take
18 their dues and try to do positive
19 things in Fayette County and to change
20 the image of the dog hunters.
21
Do we have some outlaws? We have
22 got them everywhere. You have got
23 them in deer hunting. You have got
0072
1 them in turkey hunting. It's not like
2 we are going to do away with the
3 outlaws. That's not going to happen.
4 Okay. The only way to do that is
5 enforce them.
6
7
MR. KNIGHT: I thank y'all. Any
8 questions?
9
MR. HARBIN: I would like to know
10 how long have you been in Fayette
11 County to work out a deal with these
12 landowners?
13
MR. KNIGHT: We went up to the
Page 39
14 meeting. That was our first one. We
15 had not been up to Lamar, Marion and
16 Franklin for years.
17
MR. HARBIN: Who did you meet
18 with?
19
MR. KNIGHT: Well, you were
20 there.
21
MR. HARBIN: You are talking
22 about in Perry?
23
MR. KNIGHT: Yes.
0073
1
MR. HARBIN: I know that meeting
2 pretty well.
3
MR. KNIGHT: Yes, sir.
4
MR. HARBIN: And I was talking
5 about -- you said you had formed up
6 some new clubs up there in Fayette
7 County?
8
MR. KNIGHT: That's correct.
9
MR. HARBIN: Have you met with
10 the landowners?
11
MR. KNIGHT: We haven't had time,
12 Mr. Harbin.
13
MR. CHAIRMAN: Please allow
14 Mr. Harbin to ask his whole question.
15
MR. HARBIN: All I want to ask is
16 what is the remedy that you have come
17 up with? What have you done to solve
18 the problem?
19
MR. KNIGHT: We formed a board.
20 We are trying to get it in the paper
21 where they will have somebody to
22 contact and talk with where we can
23 discuss these problems.
0074
1
We have got to have a little bit
2 of time to be able to work on the
3 problem. We have got to know the
4 problems to start with, and we are
5 tying to get those listed as we go,
6 and we have got a place now that they
7 can go to work with these people.
8
It is not going to happen
9 overnight. If you want something to
10 happen overnight, it is not going to
Page 40
11 happen. We are tying to work with the
12 people trying to keep our dogs off of
13 their land, try to work with them as
14 much as we can. We have got to talk
15 to these people and start the process.
16
MR. HARBIN: I'm just asking,
17 shouldn't you do that before the
18 hunting season starts?
19
MR. KNIGHT: We are tying it
20 right now, yes, sir.
21
MR. HARBIN: These people know
22 who are running dogs on unfamiliar
23 lands.
0075
1
MR. KNIGHT: They are trying
2 to -3
MR. HARBIN: And that is the
4 problem, not having control of these
5 dogs, and these people intentionally
6 or purposely, they just don't want
7 dogs on their land, and that is their
8 right.
9
Why should we wait until hunting
10 season or after hunting season to
11 address this problem? Why not do it
12 now?
13
MR. KNIGHT: We are not waiting.
14 We are in the process of getting
15 this -- I think the gentleman could
16 come back up here and tell you that we
17 are in the process of getting these
18 things issued in the paper where these
19 people will know who to contact. We
20 will sit down with them and try to
21 discuss each individual problem and go
22 from there and try to come up with a
23 remedy.
0076
1
MR. HARBIN: What I'm asking you
2 is this: Why not let the local people
3 talk? Let the local dog hunters talk
4 with these local non dog hunters now?
5
MR. KNIGHT: We are welcome.
6 That's what the gentleman just stood
7 up here and told you. They are
Page 41
8 welcome.
9
MR. HARBIN: But time has run out
10 to be honest with you.
11
MR. KNIGHT: They are welcome to
12 talk with them right now. We have no
13 problems. That's the reason we formed
14 this organization. That's the reason
15 we are going to put it in the paper so
16 they will know who to call. There is
17 going to be names and phone numbers
18 where they can call somebody. We can
19 sit down tomorrow and talk to these
20 people, Mr. Harbin. That's what we
21 want to do. That's the effort we are
22 trying to put forth.
23
MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Sparks, do you
0077
1 have comments?
2
COMMISSIONER SPARKS: Yes. That
3 is correct. The one comment I like to
4 make. I strongly -- I would like to
5 strongly encourage that you continue
6 to do what you are doing. I don't
7 know of anything that comes across my
8 desk more than dog hunting property
9 rights. This is a problem and there
10 are some folks that do not have -- I
11 know you said we are not going to get
12 rid of them. I don't think we will
13 ever solve this problem until we do
14 get rid of them. I strongly encourage
15 you, the dog hunter associations, to
16 do everything in your power. I don't
17 know what's going to happen here
18 today. But I know that it is a
19 serious issue, and I know that I'm
20 going to put some attention to it.
21 And I strongly encourage you to make
22 every effort possible. If we are
23 covering up for those who have no
0078
1 regards for the law, I strongly
2 suggest you uncover them. Let's get
3 them in line. Let's make sure that
4 these folks that have the land have
Page 42
5 respect of the hunters; that we do
6 have a mechanism that we can solve
7 some of these problems.
8
You know I come to a few of these
9 meetings. You can come to one of them
10 or you can come to ten of them, and
11 you basically hear the same thing over
12 and over.
13
I am encouraged by a comment that
14 you made; that you are going to make a
15 difference; that are you going to meet
16 with the landowners, and that you are
17 going to try to do something to self
18 police. And I strongly encourage you
19 to put every ounce of effort that you
20 possibly can in trying to do that.
21
MR. KNIGHT: That's exactly what
22 we are trying to do.
23
0079
1 questions for Mr. Knight?
2
MR. HARBIN: Mr. Knight, what is
3 y'all's membership? Are y'all state
4 wide?
5
MR. KNIGHT: State wide about
6 10,000.
7
MR. CHAIRMAN: Fayette County
8 what would the membership be?
9
MR. KNIGHT: I would say -- it's
10 in the process of growing. I would
11 say around 300.
12
MR. CHAIRMAN: Very good. Any
13 other questions?
14
MR. HARBIN: How many of that 300
15 in Fayette County is dog deer hunting,
16 not rabbit or bird hunting?
17
MR. KNIGHT: Ask them about what
18 percentage is the dog deer hunters
19 versus rabbit hunters or coon hunters?
20
UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Probably
21 100 to 1.
22
MR. KNIGHT: Which would be dog
23 hunters?
0080
1
UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: No, deer
Page 43
2 dog hunter.
3
MR. KNIGHT: Does that answer
4 your question?
5
MR. HARBIN: Yes.
6
7 much, Mr. Knight.
8
I would like to take this time
9 just for a break. We have one more
10 speaker, but on the floor I would like
11 to recognize Representative Powell
12 from the Huntsville area.
13 Representative, glad you are here
14 today. Thank you for being here.
15
(Audience applause)
16
MR. CHAIRMAN: We have one more
17 speaker. We have a break shown. We
18 are going to work through this break
19 because we have only been meeting for
20 about an hour and ten minutes, so we
21 are going to go right on into our next
22 business. Our last speaker will be
23 Susan Morrow from Mobile.
0081
1
MS. MORROW: Good morning,
2 Chairman of the board.
3
MR. CHAIRMAN: Pull that
4 microphone down.
5
MS. MORROW: Can you hear me now?
6
Good morning. I spoke with y'all
7 at the last meeting in Mobile about
8 some of my hunting dogs that had been
9 shot. And I live in Mobile County. I
10 hunt all over the state of Alabama.
11 I'm a dog hunter and a stock hunter.
12 But we do most of our dog hunting in
13 Choctaw County. I had two dogs that
14 was shot this past year. There is one
15 of the collars that was found that was
16 busted up. We spent a lot of money on
17 our hunting, specifically with our
18 dogs. Each collar if you get them on
19 sale is $150. I had 12 collars. We
20 have tracking systems. I have my own.
21 My husband has his, so we spend a lot
22 of money and we want to get our dogs
Page 44
23 back.
0082
1
And I hope that the board can
2 come up with some kind of something
3 that will help us so our animals will
4 not be shot. That's all that I have
5 to say. Thank you.
6
COMMISSIONER SPARKS: I have a
7 question.
8
MR. CHAIRMAN: Ms. Morrow,
9 question from Commissioner Sparks.
10
COMMISSIONER SPARKS: What do you
11 recommend?
12
MS. MORROW: To publicize more
13 that it is against the law to shoot a
14 dog, and to maybe -- in the hunting
15 book to maybe take half a page or so
16 and dedicate it.
17
COMMISSIONER SPARKS: Do you
18 really believe that the landowners do
19 not know that it is against the law to
20 shoot a dog?
21
MS. MORROW: I think some of them
22 do. I think there has been so many
23 dogs shot now, and they have gotten
0083
1 away with it.
2
In our case in Choctaw County,
3 they come to the hunting clubs, stock
4 hunters do, and they tell us I don't
5 know whose dog it was. I didn't get
6 close enough, but I was in my shooting
7 house, and I heard a dog. Y'all are
8 in a dog hunting club. And if it
9 happens again, I'm going to get a
10 petition up. We are going to do away
11 with the dog hunting around here.
12
We are not the only dog hunting
13 club there. They come and they are
14 constantly telling us that. I don't
15 know what the answer is, but I think
16 that -17
COMMISSIONER SPARKS: That's what
18 I'm asking you. I think sometimes we
19 need solutions to help us understand
Page 45
20 exactly what the problems are rather
21 than laying it in the lap here saying
22 do something. I would like to hear
23 somebody tell me a positive solution
0084
1 of what we can do to make a
2 difference.
3
MS. MORROW: Well, I don't know.
4 I will think on that real seriously
5 and I will have to get back with you
6 on that. I'm just -- I don't want my
7 dog shot anymore.
8
COMMISSIONER SPARKS: I agree
9 with you.
10
MS. MORROW: I love my animals.
11
COMMISSIONER SPARKS: I'm an
12 animal lover and a person who has had
13 animals all of my life. I agree with
14 you 100 percent. But we can discuss
15 it from now until the cows come home.
16 We have got to have a solution. We
17 have got to have positive ideas. What
18 can we do to get where we can
19 co-exist. There's got to be a
20 solution.
21
MS. MORROW: I think there is.
22 I'm not real sure what that is, but I
23 think everybody has to be open-minded
0085
1 as far as dog hunters have rights and
2 stock hunters have rights. Thank you.
3
4 Ms. Morrow.
5
The next order of business will
6 be old business. The first order of
7 old business is the past business that
8 was brought up in the last meeting of
9 restriction passage of deer relative
10 to fenced areas.
11
Mr. Lynch.
12
MR. LYNCH: Thank you.
13
At the last meeting I brought up
14 the situation that was occurring where
15 in a high fenced area, the property
16 owner had built up a ramp to allow
Page 46
17 deer to come up and enter into the
18 high fenced area and not be able to
19 exit that area. I said I was going to
20 work with the enforcement and come to
21 this meeting with a regulation that I
22 am now going to read, and I would like
23 to submit it for acceptance today.
0086
1
"The season for hunting all
2 species of deer shall be closed
3 within any enclosure capable of
4 confining deer where: One, there
5 exists or has existed any
6 man-made point of access that
7 allows deer to enter the
8 enclosure, including, but not
9 limited to, any man-made ramp,
10 platform, funnel, maze, or
11 one-way gate; or, two, any bait
12 has been placed so as to lure
13 deer through any man-made opening
14 into any such completed
15 enclosure.
16
"The deer season shall be
17 closed within any such enclosure
18 from the date the owner or
19 operator of the enclosure is
20 notified by Wildlife and
21 Freshwater Fisheries Division
22 Enforcement personnel. The deer
23 season shall remain closed for
0087
1 two years after such devices are
2 removed or such conditions no
3 longer exist. The owner or
4 operator shall notify any persons
5 who may hunt within the enclosure
6 of the closed deer season."
7
So I'm submitting that for a vote
8 today.
9
MR. CHAIRMAN: Do you have a
10 motion, Mr. Lynch?
11
MR. LYNCH: Yeah, I have a motion
12 to include this in the new regulations
13 going forth from this point.
Page 47
14
MR. CHAIRMAN: Is there a second?
15
MR. JOHNSON: Second.
16
MR. LYNCH: I don't have anymore.
17
MR. CHAIRMAN: Discussion from
18 any of the board members?
19
The motion is -- let me have that
20 again.
21
MR. COLES: For clarification,
22 what has happened is they built a berm
23 next to a high fence and put bait
0088
1 inside the high fence and were luring
2 the deer to come up on the berm and
3 jump into this high fence, and then
4 they were not able to escape.
5
So the regulation is to prevent
6 this or prohibit this.
7
MR. LYNCH: Additionally in
8 talking with the officers, it is also
9 being done where people actually open
10 up gates and bait them with a pile of
11 corn going into the closure and shut
12 the gate behind them.
13
So we really wanted to have it
14 handle all issues, not just the ramp
15 issue, but one-way gates and
16 everything else that they are seeing
17 out there. But it will correct all of
18 these policies or those actions that
19 we currently know about.
20
MR. CHAIRMAN: Anybody else? The
21 motion is for:
22
"The season for hunting all
23 species of deer shall be closed
0089
1 within any enclosure capable of
2 confining deer where: One, there
3 exists or has existed any
4 man-made point of access that
5 allows deer to enter the
6 enclosure, including, but not
7 limited to, any man-made ramp,
8 platform, funnel, maze, or
9 one-way gate; or, two, any bait
10 has been placed so as to lure
Page 48
deer through any man-made opening
into any such completed
enclosure.
"The deer season shall be
closed within any such enclosure
from the date the owner or
operator of the enclosure is
notified by Wildlife and
Freshwater Fisheries Division
Enforcement personnel. The deer
season shall remain closed for
two years after such devices are
removed or such conditions no
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
0090
1 longer exist. The owner or
2 operator shall notify any persons
3 who may hunt within the enclosure
4 of the closed deer season."
5
All of those in favor of passing?
6
(ALL BOARD MEMBERS SAID "AYE.")
7
MR. CHAIRMAN: All opposed?
8
(NO RESPONSE)
9
MR. CHAIRMAN: If there is no
10 opposition, the motion passes.
11
The next order of business in the
12 old business is buck limits. The
13 commissioner -- do you have somebody
14 to speak on it? Do you want to speak
15 on it?
16
COMMISSIONER LAWLEY: Thank you,
17 Dan.
18
Y'all have instructed me at the
19 last advisory board meeting to select
20 a committee to have a wildlife
21 biologist to study this, to report
22 back at the meeting for the board's
23 consideration. We did that and had a
0091
1 great committee. We have sent
2 everybody a report. What Dr. Steve
3 Ditchkoff has done, he wrote up a
4 report of what they had suggested. At
5 this time I would like to call on him
6 to present that to the board.
7
MR. DITCHKOFF: Thank you. I'm
Page 49
8 not sure if it is my pleasure or if I
9 drew the short straw here.
10
I'm assuming each of you had the
11 opportunity to read the report that I
12 put together regarding the committee
13 meeting that he had on April 4th. I
14 spent a little bit of time here
15 talking about that, summarizing some
16 of the committee's feelings with
17 regard to the issues that were
18 reported in there.
19
We met on April 4th at the
20 request of commissioner and there were
21 nine individuals. I believe all of
22 the individuals on the committee were
23 wildlife scientists -- and we were
0092
1 asked to address the following
2 questions.
3
Question Number One, is there a
4 need to limit the number of adult male
5 deer harvested in Alabama?
6
Number Two, if there is a need,
7 what methods would be appropriate for
8 both the deer and hunters of the
9 state?
10
Finally Number Three, what
11 research would be necessary to ensure
12 proper management of deer in Alabama
13 if such a regulation is passed?
14
Prior to discussing our
15 objectives in detail, I will let Mr.
16 Moody and Mr. Pugh get their input on
17 this process so they can incorporate
18 all the key points because they
19 obviously were apart of what was
20 discussed at that meeting.
21
With regards to the need for buck
22 limits, it was immediately apparent
23 that all members of committee felt
0093
1 that it would be beneficial for the
2 State of Alabama to have some sort of
3 limit in place; to have some
4 regulations that will allow more males
Page 50
5 to -- it was felt that a buck limit
6 would serve to produce herd at
7 one-and-a-half-year-old males and get
8 more deer into overage classes.
9
If you take a look at data from
10 Tennessee, I don't have any of that
11 data with me. They at one time had an
12 11-buck limit. They went to two-buck
13 limit. I'm not sure of exactly
14 everything that happened. They may
15 have gone back to three and back to
16 two.
17
If you take a look at the data
18 since that time, there's been a steady
19 increase in the harvest of overage
20 class bucks.
21
Now, I will be the first to say
22 that harvest does not necessarily say
23 what the standard crop of deer is that
0094
1 is out there. When I take a look at
2 the harvest data and the records
3 relate that to the deer that are
4 actually present in the state. But in
5 reality, you can say that hunters in
6 Tennessee are harvesting more deer
7 than were in the past.
8
Without question the committee
9 felt that a buck limit would be
10 biologically beneficial to the herd.
11 There are numerous reasons why it
12 would be biological beneficial. I
13 could go into those here. I think it
14 would take a lot of time, but I will
15 be happy to answer those questions in
16 terms biological benefits after this
17 if you want me to.
18
Obviously, if there were more
19 older males in the herd, those deer
20 hunters that are more interested in
21 quality harvest as opposed to
22 quantity, there would be obviously
23 benefits there as well at least the
0095
1 opportunity to harvest those sorts of
Page 51
2 deer.
3
The committee felt that a buck
4 limit of one would be too few. That
5 would be too restrictive. At the same
6 time, the committee felt that a buck
7 limit of four would not achieve the
8 desired results. There were three
9 scenarios that the committee felt
10 would be appropriate, and the
11 committee felt in general that this
12 board should have the opportunity to
13 consider these three scenarios and
14 decide amongst those three.
15
In order of preference, the most
16 preferred scenario was a two-buck
17 limit. Those two bucks could be no
18 antler restrictions or anything like
19 that, two bucks of choice during
20 hunting season.
21
The second preference was three
22 bucks but one of those bucks must have
23 four points on the side.
0096
1
The third chose was a three-buck
2 limit, no restrictions on the buck.
3
The two-buck limit was the
4 preferred choice of the committee
5 because of the obvious biological
6 benefits. We felt that more
7 restrictions with greater benefits for
8 the herd in the state of Alabama.
9
The committee also felt -- there
10 was long discussion with regards to -11 obviously we are biologists. We are
12 trying to approach this from a
13 biological perspective. But without
14 question, there are social
15 implications, political implications,
16 and these were discussed at length.
17
The committee felt -- there is no
18 data to support this -- but in
19 general, the committee felt that there
20 would be wide support for buck limit.
21 Previous data from a survey put forth
22 a number of years ago, I don't
Page 52
23 remember if it was 2002 or 2003, there
0097
1 was greater than 50 percent support.
2 There was support for some form of
3 buck limit. Though specifics in
4 regards to those buck limits was not
5 included in that survey.
6
Something that's been -- the
7 second questions dealt with -- I guess
8 the third issue we were supposed to
9 deal with was research or monitoring.
10 Any good monitoring program has some
11 form of monitor or research attached
12 to it. It was felt that if something
13 was put in place here, it would be
14 very important that a monitoring
15 system would also be incorporated into
16 the system.
17
One of the problems that we are
18 at today is it's very difficult to go
19 back and actually evaluate what has
20 happened in the past with regards to
21 the state in general. We have good
22 data regarding the overall harvest in
23 state, but it is very difficult to
0098
1 evaluate what exactly is being
2 harvested with the exception of those
3 properties that have been under the
4 deer management program in the past.
5
Regular evaluation from this
6 point forward, if something was put in
7 place or something was not put in
8 place would be important to evaluate
9 progress or herd improvements.
10
In addition, it would also be a
11 way to evaluate our satisfaction. It
12 is very difficult to gauge hunters
13 satisfaction when you only hear from
14 two extremes. You hear from those
15 that are very supportive or those that
16 are strongly opposed. There are a lot
17 of individuals in the middle.
18
The data the committee felt would
19 be very blunt would be age structure
Page 53
20 of the harvest. Random samples of
21 deer processes are one way, probably
22 not an optimal way, but a fairly
23 simple solution to evaluate age
0099
1 structure of the harvest.
2
How many one-and-a-half-year-old,
3 two-and-a-half-year-old,
4 three-and-a-half-year-old, et cetera,
5 bucks are being harvested? Right now
6 we have good data in the state. Total
7 harvest, number of does harvested,
8 number of bucks harvested. There is a
9 system in place for that, but
10 currently there is not a good system
11 for evaluating the age.
12
Number Two is hunter
13 satisfaction. There is a survey
14 system in place at this point, and it
15 could be modified accordingly to
16 evaluate hunter satisfaction. And I
17 do believe that currently some of
18 those questions are asked on this
19 survey.
20
Enforcement. You heard some
21 things today regarding enforcement of
22 policies such as we are proposing.
23 Enforcement is a part of any good
0100
1 management program.
2
What's being proposed here, I
3 don't know if you call it a tag system
4 will or what you call this, but what's
5 being proposed is a modification of
6 the current paper finances similar to
7 what's done in Georgia.
8
Every hunter purchases their
9 paper license, included in that
10 license would be slots. If it was a
11 two-buck limit, there would be two
12 slots on that hunting license. So
13 when the hunter harvests their deer,
14 they sign their name, fill out the
15 date and maybe the number of antlers.
16
Hunting license goes back into
Page 54
17 their wallets. If they are checked by
18 an enforcement officer, then what they
19 have is documented evidence that they
20 have checked that deer. Any
21 enforcement officer does not require
22 anything greater than an enforcement
23 officer to go check hunters, but if
0101
1 they see a hunter with a buck, they
2 have the opportunity, and they can
3 legitimately check and see if that
4 individual has checked that deer. It
5 is a self-check system.
6
It is no different than an
7 enforcement officer checking duck
8 hunters coming out of the swamp in the
9 morning. If you have your hunting
10 license with you, how many ducks did
11 you shoot.
12
It will also provide the
13 opportunity for the enforcement
14 officers to randomly every now and
15 then to swing by a deer processor.
16 There is a lot of deer that go through
17 there. If there are three bucks
18 sitting there -- these hunters know if
19 you are taking the deer out in public
20 that they are going to have to have
21 that because there is a good chance
22 they will be checked.
23
The committee did not feel that
0102
1 that would be any undue burden on the
2 enforcement officers.
3
The committee felt that it would
4 actually make enforcement easier over
5 the current situation.
6
Right now there's a one-buck
7 limit, one buck per day. There's no
8 way to know whether or not a hunter
9 harvested one buck in the morning and
10 one in the evening. How often that
11 happens, I have no idea. But there is
12 currently no system in place if you
13 ever do that. This would be an
Page 55
14 improvement over the current system.
15
Without additional expense.
16 Don't feel it would be an additional
17 burden. Those enforcement officers
18 that we have spoken to kind of in
19 passing have indicated it doesn't
20 really change their job. It would be
21 very easy to do.
22
There's no point in reinventing
23 the wheel here is the general feeling
0103
1 of the committee. Those individuals
2 in Georgia that have the system that
3 we have spoken to says it's a very
4 good system and seems to work.
5
While we were not asked to do so,
6 the committee also felt that such a
7 system would honestly be beneficial
8 with regards to turkeys.
9
If you could impose this with
10 buck tags, why not do the same thing
11 with turkey. There is a five turkey
12 limit and five slots you can fill it
13 out before you leave the woods.
14
The additional burden, I guess
15 the hunter has to carry a pen with him
16 into the woods.
17
Just to summarize one thing to
18 make clear here, there is no perfect
19 solution to anything that we talk
20 about in this room. There is
21 obviously no perfect solution to this
22 problem if you want to call it a
23 problem.
0104
1
What we are proposing, if it is a
2 two-buck limit, three-buck with four
3 on the side or three-buck limit, none
4 of those are perfect solutions either.
5 There are going to be those that just
6 as there are those that are opposed to
7 a one-buck-a-day limit.
8
However, this proposal is
9 biologically sound. I will state that
10 again it is biologically sound. And
Page 56
11 we believe it is an improvement over
12 the current situation.
13
In addition, you know based upon
14 the data that is available, it's also
15 approved by the majority of hunters in
16 the state.
17
If you have any questions, I will
18 be happy to address them.
19
MR. CHAIRMAN: DR. STRICKLAND.
20
DR. STRICKLAND: I have one
21 question.
22
MR. CHAIRMAN: During this
23 conversation if everyone will speak
0105
1 into the portable microphone please.
2 Thank you.
3
DR. STRICKLAND: Steve, I realize
4 this may be a difficult question for
5 you to answer. What do you feel the
6 difference in two bucks versus three
7 bucks? I think it is going to be
8 confusing time -9
MR. DITCHKOFF: I don't have the
10 numbers in front of me. Maybe other
11 individuals in this room do have some
12 of those numbers with regard to that
13 Alabama survey.
14
If you take a look at the numbers
15 with regard to how many bucks are
16 harvested per hunter in the state,
17 there were estimates based on the
18 three-buck limit. I don't know if it
19 was 5,000 or five percent. I don't
20 know if you guys remember what the
21 numbers are. If there was a two buck,
22 there was 25 percent savings in bucks.
23 I'm making these numbers up. I can't
0106
1 remember what they were. There was -2 obviously if it is 5 percent versus 20
3 or 5 versus 25 percent, that is a big
4 difference.
5
The committee felt however that
6 one of the things in this state that
7 most people don't like would actually
Page 57
8 be a benefit. There is a late rut in
9 Alabama. With the rut being in
10 January. There's obviously biological
11 disadvantages to that in regards to
12 living on farms and that sort of
13 thing.
14
But considering that the hunting
15 season in Alabama, that the rut is
16 right at the end of the hunting
17 season, the committee felt that there
18 would be a lot of hunters that would
19 save their buck tags until the end of
20 the season. If there is a three-buck
21 limit, a lot of hunters may shoot that
22 first buck and say this could be two
23 good -0107
1
Hunters are going to want to hunt
2 during the rut. As a result there is
3 going to be a lot of tags that would
4 not be filled. There would be
5 additional savings in addition to what
6 we are projecting with that survey.
7
What the impact is, I don't know.
8 Any improvement would be beneficial.
9 But I think the improvement would be
10 far reaching two-buck limit as opposed
11 to the three. I don't know how to
12 describe that in terms of -13
DR. STRICKLAND: One other
14 question. Let's say that the buck
15 limit is passed, how many years do you
16 think it would take to see a change in
17 the age structure, buck to doe ratio
18 in the state of Alabama? Is that a -19
MR. DITCHKOFF: Data out of
20 Arkansas has indicated that when you
21 protect an age class of deer, when you
22 protect one-half-year old bucks,
23 essentially what you do is you move
0108
1 that harvest to two and a half year
2 olds. When Arkansas passed the three
3 point rule, they protected their year
4 and a half old bucks and they
Page 58
5 increased their harvest of two and a
6 half year olds without increasing
7 harvest of the three and a half and
8 up.
9
The philosophy behind antler buck
10 restriction or buck limits is that you
11 can protect some deer and get them to
12 two and a half or three and a half,
13 then many of these will grow older or
14 a little wiser and many of them are
15 going to survive on their own a little
16 more capable of avoiding hunters.
17
I think that the benefits would
18 be -- I think you are looking at two
19 or three years any ways to start the
20 season benefits. I think some
21 landowners are going to see benefits
22 right away, and many are not going to
23 see benefits for many years. It's
0109
1 going to be dependent on what the
2 environment is around a particular
3 piece of property.
4
If you are a landowner that hunts
5 next to a group that has a high
6 harvest of bucks, you are going to see
7 high improvements in one or two years.
8 If you are hunting on a piece of
9 property that's already restricting
10 themselves, then improvements are
11 going to be mild, so it is going to
12 vary.
13
DR. STRICKLAND: You feel within
14 five years you would definitely see a
15 big improvement?
16 A. I would hope so. But remember
17 once again that depends on how you
18 measure improvement. There are
19 multiple things. One, is there are
20 biological benefits. Two, there is
21 the age structure and the positive
22 dynamics within the state which is
23 very difficult to evaluate, very
0110
1 difficult to evaluate what deer are
Page 59
2 actually walking around out there.
3
Number Three, is hunter
4 satisfaction. Number Four, is what's
5 actually being harvested.
6
So it depends on how you measure
7 success.
8
DR. STRICKLAND: Thank you.
9
MR. CHAIRMAN: Wait a minute.
10
MR. HARBIN: What is the state
11 wide buck/doe ratio?
12
MR. DITCHKOFF: Couldn't tell
13 you.
14
MR. HARBIN: How long would it
15 take this extra -- it would be based
16 on the harvest. How long would it
17 take to catch up with the right -- I
18 guess how many does to a buck?
19
MR. DITCHKOFF: Well, it depends
20 on what the current situation is right
21 now. It depends the effect on, you
22 know, doe population. What happens to
23 doe harvest when you reduce buck
0111
1 limits? It is a very difficult
2 question. It is not one that I can
3 really answer. I think it would be
4 improvement over time. How long does
5 it take to get there, I think that's
6 part of what the monitoring process
7 is.
8
One of the most difficult things
9 to do is actually evaluate what the
10 standard of deer is at any particular
11 time.
12
When you ask me what that is, I
13 think that's a question that would be
14 better directed towards those
15 individuals that manage the deer in
16 this state.
17
MR. HARBIN: How do we know
18 whether we are killing too many does
19 or not if you don't know what the
20 ratio is state wide? I mean, I know
21 it is different in different counties.
22
MR. DITCHKOFF: If you want to
Page 60
23 properly manage deer on a piece of
0112
1 property, what you need to do is take
2 a look at the condition of those deer
3 and you need to take a look at
4 actually what the condition of the
5 habitat is, whether or not it is being
6 overrun.
7
I honestly don't think you can
8 kill to many does on a piece of
9 property.
10
MR. HARBIN: I don't know. I
11 want to ask Mr. Moody -- when you get
12 through I would like to ask Mr. Moody
13 his opinion on this subject. I'm just
14 not satisfied that this is what we
15 should do.
16
MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Moody, if you
17 would address Mr. Harbin's question on
18 your opinion. However, before you do
19 that, if you would clear out -- I
20 think it would be good for the board
21 the same issues as Dr. Ditchkoff
22 brought up and Mr. Harbin brought up.
23
Just for clarification, what is
0113
1 the current estimated population of
2 the deer in the state of Alabama?
3
MR. MOODY: Approximately 1.8
4 million.
5
MR. CHAIRMAN: What is the
6 current buck/doe ratio estimate in the
7 entire state of Alabama?
8
MR. MOODY: We do not know.
9
MR. CHAIRMAN: Would you have a
10 guess?
11
MR. MOODY: No.
12
MR. CHAIRMAN: You don't have any
13 idea whatsoever?
14
MR. MOODY: We know that our
15 harvest is in better balance in the
16 past five or six years after
17 harvesting more does than bucks, but
18 we do not have a figure to tell you
19 what that population is.
Page 61
20
MR. CHAIRMAN: Would you say we
21 are headed in the right direction?
22 But must you still have more does than
23 bucks.
0114
1
MR. MOODY: We felt like there
2 were quite a bit when we started our
3 effort ten years ago to increase doe
4 harvest. And at that time doe harvest
5 was very minimum. Now it's very
6 significant. It is approaching
7 230,000.
8
MR. CHAIRMAN: So at that time
9 when you initiate the doe harvest at
10 that time, you felt that there was
11 more does at that time. What do you
12 feel -13
MR. MOODY: We did not have a
14 figure we used in terms of state wide
15 population. And that is a good point
16 there. There are areas that are well
17 managed and areas that are not. On
18 state wide basis we were well
19 overpopulated. We did not have -20
MR. CHAIRMAN: Do you have an
21 idea what a biologically sound buck to
22 doe ratio should be?
23
MR. MOODY: You know ultimately
0115
1 we would like to have one to one. I
2 don't think we are going to get
3 there -- one to two or one to three we
4 will be in pretty good shape.
5
MR. GOODWYN: Can you speak up a
6 little?
7
MR. MOODY: One to one would
8 be -- what ultimately would be one to
9 two, one to three, those would be
10 pretty good shape.
11
MR. CHAIRMAN: So you would think
12 then we are above the one to three?
13
MR. MOODY: In some areas.
14
MR. CHAIRMAN: State wide?
15
MR. MOODY: State wide, probably
16 so.
Page 62
17
MR. CHAIRMAN: All right.
18 Mr. Moody.
19
Mr. Harbin, your question for
20 Mr. Moody was?
21
MR. HARBIN: I want to know, do
22 you think we need a buck limit in the
23 state of Alabama?
0116
1
MR. MOODY: No, sir.
2
MR. HARBIN: Okay. I'd like to
3 ask Mr. Andress about how are we going
4 to do that?
5
MR. MOODY: Mr. Harbin, may I
6 expand on that just a little bit? Do
7 you mind?
8
MR. HARBIN: Not a bit.
9
MR. MOODY: I agree and we agree
10 as biologists that there needs to be a
11 well managed deer herd in the state.
12 And the objectives that this committee
13 has reported and those that made the
14 recommendation and what we want to see
15 are not dissimilar. We are all
16 wanting to see the same thing.
17
One thing this whole proposal has
18 done is at least it allowed us to have
19 a better forum, better discussion
20 about the deer issues in our state.
21
Our deer herd is our number one
22 game animal and the most important
23 resource that we have got out there as
0117
1 far as the hunters are concerned for
2 recreation standpoint and . We
3 certainly recognize that.
4
It has also made us aware that
5 the hunting public, at least a segment
6 of the hunting public, may have a
7 perception of what is going on with
8 our harvest and our deer herd that
9 doesn't necessarily match reality.
10
Several years ago when we started
11 our efforts -- this would have been
12 about ten years ago when we started
13 our efforts to make the public aware
Page 63
14 of the need to harvest does at a
15 higher rate and do a better job.
16 There was also a second message in
17 there, and that was that we needed to
18 do a better job of showing restraint
19 on buck harvest. We were not very
20 overt with that message. It was more
21 of a sub-message, and that may have
22 been a mistake, but we did not want to
23 confuse a message at the time that we
0118
1 felt like the greater need was to get
2 mouths off the ground and make people
3 aware of the need to harvest does.
4
Ever since that time, we have
5 been very consistent in our message to
6 the public about showing restraint on
7 bucks, having a balanced buck/doe
8 ratio and allowing bucks to reach a
9 more mature age. That's in everything
10 that we have written, in all of our
11 biologists meetings.
12
We think that it has been well
13 received by the hunting public, and we
14 base that on the numbers from our
15 surveys which Dr. Ditchkoff referred
16 to and agreed that it was a good
17 survey and data numbers.
18
Our doe harvest in that short
19 period of time, the ten years, has
20 increased over 75,000 animals per year
21 being harvested. That's a pretty good
22 job especially since we started out
23 with a lot of people that just were
0119
1 adamantly opposed to harvesting does.
2
What is less well recognized is
3 that during that same time period, the
4 buck harvest is down 50,000 per year,
5 and it's trending downward, and that
6 is a pretty remarkable accomplishment,
7 and we feel like, one, the hunters
8 need to be applauded in making that
9 effort in the decision they make. We
10 are harvesting 50,000 animals a year
Page 64
11 less now than we were ten years ago,
12 50,000 bucks.
13
There are some other concerns
14 that we have. If our population
15 estimates are correct or anywhere
16 close to correct, we are only
17 harvesting total, even though we
18 harvested more does than bucks, we are
19 still only harvesting about 25 percent
20 of the total population. And every
21 deer manager that I talked to and deer
22 model shows you have got to harvest at
23 least 35 percent to stay at a level of
0120
1 population. So state wide we are
2 still not at a level that we need to
3 be to maintain even consistent
4 population. The only way to do that
5 is to get mouths off.
6
Every deer manager will tell you
7 also if you have got an overcrowded
8 situation, the most important thing is
9 to get mouths off the ground. You
10 have got to do that. You have got to
11 get to the carrying capacity on a
12 piece of property before you can make
13 a positive management decision. So we
14 are very concerned about that.
15
It is also obvious to us that
16 just reducing the number of bucks
17 harvested doesn't do some of the
18 things that have been indicated that
19 it will be successful on a buck limit.
20 It does not automatically get deer in
21 older age classes. We are 50,000
22 bucks less than we were ten years ago.
23 Every year 50,000 bucks less.
0121
1
If that was the case, then, you
2 know, we would -- I think we would see
3 more of what this committee and others
4 indicate they want to see we would be
5 seeing.
6
It takes a lot of hard work on
7 habitat, and it takes a lot of
Page 65
8 selectivity in points. It is a
9 multi-piece part of the puzzle. It
10 takes a lot of understanding and
11 education to get the word out there.
12 I think our hunters are responsible
13 for that, but there is still work to
14 be done.
15
We very much agree that
16 additional data is needed. We would
17 like to see additional data, and we
18 stand ready to work with their boards,
19 with committees, with any group that
20 will help us, not only to be part of
21 design study, but help us to figure
22 out funding to make sure that we have
23 got revenue necessary to carry out
0122
1 those studies. That is something that
2 we would like to do.
3
We are not wed to the past. I
4 want everybody to know that. We are
5 not stuck in a rut here. We don't
6 feel like we don't want to change
7 because this is the way it has also
8 been and we are being stubborn about
9 changing.
10
We have made significant changes
11 with our deer herd in the past, and we
12 will continue to make those changes.
13 If we make a change, we feel very
14 strongly that we need to be clearly
15 articulate to the hunting clubs what
16 they are going to be able to achieve
17 from that change and to be able to
18 quantify the change in a positive way.
19
We have challenged our own deer
20 biologists. When I met with the
21 committee, I challenged them, if we
22 are harvesting too many bucks now,
23 then what is the right number? We
0123
1 need to know. We need to have a
2 measure of success.
3
So, if we are harvesting too many
4 now -- and we don't think we are, but
Page 66
5 if we are, the trend is still down -6 what is that number? And nobody has
7 been willing to step up and say what
8 the appropriate number would be. And
9 we feel like we need to continue
10 towards looking at that before we
11 start putting in a solution to fix the
12 problem that we haven't clearly
13 defined.
14
MR. CHAIRMAN: In general I have
15 also been a habit of information for
16 the board. I want the board,
17 specifically on such a critical issue,
18 to have all the information available.
19 You mentioned your census. I have a
20 copy up here, and 50,000 figure, and
21 correct me if I'm wrong on this, this
22 is Alabama deer harvest estimate
23 combined gun and harvest. Is that
0124
1 where the number will be?
2
MR. MOODY: I'm not looking at -3
MR. CHAIRMAN: Here is a copy of
4 it if you like, but I believe this is
5 y'all's census data. I'm showing this
6 so the board will make notes of these
7 figures to make sure y'all have all
8 data available. We are showing a buck
9 harvest in the '05, '06 season,
10 280,000 animals; is that correct?
11
MR. MOODY: Yes.
12
MR. CHAIRMAN: We are showing a
13 harvest in 2004/2005 211,000 animals;
14 is that correct?
15
MR. MOODY: Correct.
16
MR. CHAIRMAN: We are showing a
17 harvest in 2003/2004, 247. We are
18 showing a harvest in 2002/2003, 259.
19 And then I believe the census has
20 changed before math at that time in
21 the last four years?
22
MR. MOODY: Four years ago we -23 no, we changed where it was analyzed.
0125
1 Prior to that it had been analyzed
Page 67
2 with personnel from North Carolina
3 State. Due to some retirements there
4 and other things, it shifted to
5 Auburn, and Auburn began analyzing
6 four years ago. That is what changed.
7 The survey methodology did not change.
8
MR. CHAIRMAN: And you
9 feel -- y'all feel that these
10 estimates on this survey is
11 statistically valid, and y'all have
12 great faith in this survey; is that
13 correct?
14
MR. MOODY: That's correct. If
15 you will look back at the period of
16 time that we started our efforts with
17 doe harvest which would have been in
18 the '96, '97. In '97 I think the
19 harvest was at its peak. I said over
20 50,000. It is actually closer to
21 60,000 for that one year. I'm trying
22 not to compare one year. But you know
23 you look at it over time, over that
0126
1 ten year period of time, it is pretty
2 significant.
3
MR. CHAIRMAN: I have one
4 question about this just to make sure.
5 Again, we want all the questions to be
6 asked. If we are looking at 2005,
7 2006 harvest, total harvest is close
8 to 441,000; is that correct?
9
MR. MOODY: Yes.
10
MR. CHAIRMAN: You are showing
11 280,000 bucks, 236,000 does. That is
12 doe and buck harvest?
13
MR. MOODY: Yes, it's about 47,
14 53, I think.
15
MR. CHAIRMAN: I took a
16 population dynamic, the number that is
17 1,500,000 animals. You said -18
MR. MOODY: We have used a
19 million seven, a million eight
20 consistently for several years.
21
MR. CHAIRMAN: Just for
22 agreement, a million five. We can
Page 68
23 change that if you want to.
0127
1
And if our buck to doe ratio was
2 one to one -- again, I ask the board
3 to please listen to what Mr. Moody has
4 to say, what Dr. Ditchkoff has to say.
5 This is a critical issue with the
6 state, and so if we have this
7 population dynamic, and we have a one
8 to one buck/doe ratio, we have 750,000
9 does, 750,000 bucks; is that correct?
10
MR. MOODY: Yes. If you had one
11 to one, yeah. But the population
12 dynamic doesn't work that way because
13 of the reproductive rate and the
14 number -15
MR. CHAIRMAN: Mortality rate and
16 other things?
17
We are talking about in
18 generality if it was one to one, that
19 would be approximately what it would
20 be.
21
Let's go down to six to one. The
22 problem may be not as bad as it is in
23 some areas, not as good as it is in
0128
1 some areas.
2
If the population dynamic shows a
3 six to one buck to doe ratio, you
4 would have a population of 1,285,715.
5
MR. GOODWYN: Mr. Moultrie, when
6 you turn your head you are missing the
7 microphone.
8
MR. CHAIRMAN: Okay. And on the
9 bucks, we would show a population of
10 214,285. Now, if it was six to one,
11 and again we can use -- we don't have
12 any idea of the buck to doe ratio. If
13 it was six to one which seems to be -14 you said it was four to one or
15 greater, we just killed every buck in
16 this state, Mr. Moody. We just killed
17 almost every buck in the state because
18 we have got 214,285. Our survey shows
19 that we killed 280,000 bucks.
Page 69
20
How do we address that?
21
MR. MOODY: Well, I would address
22 it first in looking at your population
23 numbers.
0129
1
I think I got this back on.
2
I would like to sit down with you
3 and let's go through some numbers
4 because it's not as simple as that.
5 You have got a lot more to deal with.
6
I'm not a population modeler.
7 Understand that. There are people
8 that have got a lot more dealings than
9 I have got that understand the
10 population models.
11
But if our population -- and we
12 still think it is higher than that.
13 We still think we are harvesting about
14 25 percent of our doe population. If
15 that's the case, you know, your
16 numbers are not matching what we are
17 seeing out there.
18
MR. CHAIRMAN: Not matching the
19 survey.
20
MR. MOODY: There is no survey
21 that shows what you are trying -- I'm
22 confused about what you are talking
23 about surveying these numbers.
0130
1
MR. CHAIRMAN: Your numbers -2
MR. GOODWYN: Mr. Moultrie, we
3 can't hear you.
4
MR. CHAIRMAN: Your numbers are
5 buck to doe harvest on the survey?
6
MR. MOODY: Yes. That's correct.
7
MR. CHAIRMAN: My numbers are
8 just extrapolating from a 1.5 million
9 population and it can be moved. On
10 the other side of that besides what
11 harvest talk about.
12
And the does in an age class,
13 correct me if I'm wrong here, but
14 generally speaking, if this is
15 correct, the board, keep in mind the
16 population dynamics of zero to
Page 70
17 six-month-old does will not reproduce
18 in the fall of next year; is that
19 correct, generally speaking?
20
MR. DITCHKOFF: Generally
21 speaking.
22
MR. CHAIRMAN: A six-month to a
23 year-and-a-half-old doe has the
0131
1 ability to probably produce one fawn;
2 is that correct.
3
MR. DITCHKOFF: Correct.
4
MR. CHAIRMAN: And then a two and
5 a half year old -- probably the board
6 knows this. After a deer hits two and
7 a half, that has the ability to have
8 twins, if good healthy condition
9 exist, could have twin fawns; is that
10 correct?
11
MR. DITCHKOFF: It is going to
12 vary based upon age class. In general
13 the number that I can refer to is you
14 are going to have 1.7 fawns per doe.
15
MR. CHAIRMAN: And so 1.7 fawns
16 per doe, if -- and again my population
17 estimate of 1.5 is probably greater
18 like you said 1.7. If it was 1.5
19 million, we will be showing 1,285,715
20 does. If those does -- and you took a
21 harvest of 233,000 does, you would be
22 down to change does. If those does
23 had an average of 1.7 -- depending on
0132
1 the age class -- does, we are putting
2 over a million deer back into the herd
3 then. Would that be correct?
4
MR. MOODY: I'm getting lost in
5 your math here. So I'm not going to
6 argue with you.
7
MR. CHAIRMAN: I'm not arguing.
8 All I want to do is have all the data
9 available for the board.
10
My whole question, I'm coming
11 around to it now of making sure the
12 board has all of the population
13 dynamics. Is that -- to me the
Page 71
14 numbers didn't add up.
15
First, it appeared that we were
16 killing all the bucks that were
17 available. And, secondly, it appeared
18 that we had too many does reproducing
19 which may be a concurrence to some
20 people.
21
But, again, it's extremely
22 complicated just like you said. There
23 is a lot more to it. Dr. Ditchkoff
0133
1 referred to it before. We have
2 coyotes that are a huge factor of
3 that, I think, in the state. There's
4 a lot of different issues that affect
5 us here.
6
So now that I've tried to make
7 sure the board has all of the
8 information that I can give to you, I
9 would like for y'all to make sure to
10 ask every question possible to
11 Dr. Ditchkoff or Mr. Moody or anyone
12 else that's available.
13
Who from the board would like to
14 ask the first question?
15
MR. LYNCH: Gary, I know that you
16 said you don't think we need a buck
17 limit, but we just heard a report that
18 said a buck limit would be beneficial
19 to the herd in the state of Alabama
20 and would help out the herd.
21
So there is a contradiction
22 there, and I understand personally you
23 may not think a buck limit is the way
0134
1 to go. But if it is beneficial to the
2 herd, would you at least grant that
3 the report is correct.
4
MR. MOODY: I grant that is their
5 opinion, and I respect their opinion,
6 and I know these guys. It's not a
7 personal thing with me at all. I want
8 you to understand that. This is our
9 professional opinion, and the majority
10 of our staff are of that opinion on
Page 72
11 where we are right now.
12
I think that the trend that we
13 have seen in the buck harvest has been
14 down, down significant. If we were
15 not seeing that, we would be standing
16 here leading charge to try to do
17 something different. I promise you
18 that.
19
If we can obtain numbers, and I
20 would welcome the opportunity to be
21 able to obtain the information that
22 the committee asked for that gives us
23 a better idea on the county basis and
0135
1 reasonable basis on age structure and
2 those kind of things, that would be
3 tremendously helpful, and that would
4 be a welcome addition to the wealth of
5 information that we have got now.
6
I don't agree that we need to
7 make a decision that said we are going
8 have a three-buck limit when in fact
9 we don't know that that's going to
10 reduce the harvest, and we don't have
11 a harvest figure that we are shooting
12 for. There is not a target. Until we
13 have a target and somebody has been
14 able to biologically say this is the
15 figure that we are shooting for, and
16 for these reason and we can tell the
17 hunters of the state what benefits
18 they are going to get by doing that,
19 you know, we are not going to be -- I
20 don't think it is the thing to do,
21 plus just having a limit does not in
22 any way alter age structure. It's
23 just too complicated to say that we
0136
1 are going to have a three-buck limit
2 and all of sudden we are going to see
3 all these deer in an older age
4 category. That is not going to be the
5 case.
6
7
Dr. Ditchkoff, do you have any
Page 73
8 comment on that?
9
I will ask each time. I would
10 like to get your comments. You are
11 the representative of the committee.
12 Do you have a comment on that?
13
MR. DITCHKOFF: I mentioned
14 before that ultimately what we are
15 talking about, and the committee's
16 feeling was if you can reduce the
17 number of bucks that are being
18 harvested, each one of those bucks
19 that are not harvested is going to be
20 a year older the next year. You can
21 translate that however you so choose,
22 but it does not necessarily mean -- it
23 does not do anything about the deer
0137
1 that were not harvested that year.
2 It's not saying that they are going to
3 be older. Are you going to shoot
4 younger deer on the antlers, or older
5 deer on the antlers? It does not say
6 that.
7
But if you reduce the harvest by
8 10,000 or 50,000 or 100,000, every
9 deer that is not harvested will be a
10 year older the next year if they can
11 survive until that next year. That's
12 ultimately the basis of what the
13 committee made the decision upon.
14
MR. CHAIRMAN: Okay. Any other
15 board member?
16
Dr. Strickland.
17
DR. STRICKLAND: You know, Gary,
18 I still question the statistics that
19 we received for one reason. The basic
20 piece of information that mandated
21 deer herd is just buck to doe ratio.
22 How can you tell if the buck harvest
23 is down? I mean, how do you know? Do
0138
1 you know the buck harvest is down the
2 past ten years?
3
MR. MOODY: I know the buck
4 harvest is down -Page 74
5
DR. STRICKLAND: Based on?
6
MR. MOODY: Based on the survey.
7 The committee recognizes the survey is
8 better. The statistic harvest that
9 is -10
DR. STRICKLAND: How can you
11 formulate -- with not doing a buck to
12 doe ratio? That's fairly basic. How
13 are you going -- I think you need to
14 know buck to doe ratio. What is your
15 plan on getting a buck to doe ratio?
16
MR. MOODY: We would love to have
17 more information. Like I said, to
18 have that information and to have a
19 survey and a study to do that
20 information. At the same time a great
21 majority -- one thing that hasn't been
22 taken -- I'm not sure its been given
23 enough consideration. There is a
0139
1 tremendous amount of property in this
2 state that's already under a pretty
3 good management scheme. All the same.
4 But there is lots of land that
5 managers are doing a good job of
6 managing. And they have got harvest
7 restrictions, be it numbered, be it
8 antler points, be it whatever they
9 decided to come up with. And they
10 have been doing it for quite a few
11 years.
12
Those properties, you look at
13 them, and we can give you some
14 information, you know, working with
15 those -- information for one and you
16 know.
17
So we are not all starting at the
18 same point. When you start telling
19 about buck limit or any kind of
20 restriction it is going to do, it
21 depends on many, many, many things.
22
DR. STRICKLAND: Steve, this
23 question is to you. The one thing
0140
1 that we haven't discussed, and I'm not
Page 75
2 saying we need to go into detail, but
3 we really have a problem,
4 psychological.
5
MR. CHAIRMAN: Doctor, use your
6 mic.
7
DR. STRICKLAND: One of the
8 things that we haven't discussed or
9 mentioned is the psychological stress
10 of having -- how many days do we hunt?
11 Harvest buck, 110 days?
12
MR. DITCHKOFF: Approximately.
13
DR. STRICKLAND: Do you think
14 that has any impact on, you know,
15 psychologically maybe a bucks'
16 breeding habits, the quality of the
17 offsprings? I mean, that's -- I don't
18 know another state that has that kind
19 of pressure to where you shoot a buck
20 today for 110 days. I mean that's -21
MR. DITCHKOFF: I think Alabama
22 and South Carolina are the two states
23 that are comparable with regards to
0141
1 pressure on the deer. In the more
2 time the hunter spends in the woods,
3 there is going to be greater pressure
4 on the deer, and you are going to see
5 changes in behavior. That's going to
6 influence hunting. I think that
7 ultimately it influences the hunters
8 with regards to there are no does left
9 or there are no bucks or was there and
10 was not there.
11
I think that results in general
12 without data we are left to guess
13 based upon what we see from the deer
14 stand which is far from accurate with
15 regard to standing crop of deer.
16
One thing I would like to state
17 and this is not to take anything
18 away -- first of all, I believe that
19 harvest statistics that they have are
20 correct. I believe that if it says
21 210,000, that is the center of their
22 confidence level. I haven't looked at
Page 76
23 the data. But I do know the
0142
1 individual that does that. I feel
2 confident in the sex ratio of the
3 harvest. What I don't feel confident
4 with, and I will stand firmly by this,
5 is every state in the country has an
6 estimate of the number of deer in
7 their state.
8
Alabama's estimate is currently
9 1.8 million. Not to take anything
10 away from the number that was just put
11 out, they are put in a difficult
12 position where they are asked how many
13 deer are in the state? What is the
14 sex ratio? And they are forced to say
15 this is how many deer there are
16 because that's their job. I'm going
17 to say right now that every state does
18 that and every state is essentially
19 making up a number. There is no valid
20 way currently to estimate the number
21 of deer on a piece of property, piece
22 of real estate like we are talking.
23 We are struggling to be able to do it
0143
1 on 9,000 acres. We are having to do
2 it state wide.
3
So we are really dealing with
4 numbers here, talking about sex
5 ratios, talking about hunting and
6 harvest. We don't -- need to harvest
7 there is not a basis to begin with. I
8 know this kind of throws a whole curve
9 ball at the committee because you want
10 to simplify this process, but we need
11 200,000 or 300,000. There is no basis
12 to start.
13
Even if we do have a number,
14 there is no way to estimate what
15 carrying capacity is, so you don't
16 know where your goal, where are you
17 trying to shoot for. It's just not
18 that simple.
19
I don't know how to put it in
Page 77
20 more clear terms.
21
MR. CHAIRMAN: Anymore questions
22 from the board?
23
Mr. Harbin?
0144
1
MR. HARBIN: I just want to ask
2 him is there any data this board needs
3 to have access to before it is voted
4 on?
5
MR. CHAIRMAN: Were you clear on
6 that, Mr. Moody?
7
MR. MOODY: I am not aware -- I
8 don't know of any hard data, if that
9 was the question. I know you asked
10 the question of Mr. Andress a while
11 ago so I pass it over to him because
12 he may have some other comments.
13
MR. HARBIN: Mr. Coles has a
14 question.
15
MR. COLES: Can anyone in the
16 room tell me of any state in the
17 United States that has a buck limit
18 where after implementing this program,
19 the buck to doe ratio did not improve?
20 And can anyone in this room tell me
21 that the harvest of antler deer after
22 implementing a buck limitation, that
23 the age class did not improve as far
0145
1 as getting older on the harvested
2 deer? And any state that after
3 implementing a buck limit that was not
4 a greater satisfaction from the
5 hunters out there? Can anyone in this
6 room name me a state that any of those
7 happened?
8
MR. MOODY: Yes, sir. You've
9 asked some good questions, and I don't
10 know that information for all the
11 states. I know that in some states
12 when a buck limit was imposed, and I
13 think the board received an article
14 several months ago from the state of
15 Texas where they had implemented a
16 buck limit down to one, and that did
Page 78
17 not reduce their harvest. It
18 redistributed their harvest, but it
19 did not reduce their harvest. But I
20 think you can see that in a lot of
21 places, you may have reduced the
22 harvest. You may stop one individual
23 from killing two or three, but
0146
1 somebody else that wasn't going to
2 kill a deer will kill a buck.
3
It is difficult to answer that
4 question across the board because
5 there just isn't too much information,
6 not enough information that we have
7 got. But it is not true to say that
8 every time a limit was put it that it
9 changed the harvest.
10
MR. COLES: I have one other
11 question. It was brought out in the
12 committee that you mentioned that you
13 felt like the tagging system that had
14 been proposed would be beneficial for
15 turkeys. I see Mr. Harlan Starr, the
16 president of Alabama Chapter of Wild
17 Turkey Federation.
18
Mr. Starr, does the turkey -19 does state chapter have any opposition
20 to the tagging system?
21
MR. STARR: No. The Alabama -22
MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Starr, you
23 need to talk in the microphone.
0147
1
MR. STARR: The Alabama Chapter
2 of the National Wild Turkey Federation
3 has no opposition to the tagging
4 system. We are fine with it.
5
MR. COLES: Thank you very much.
6
MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Hatley.
7
MR. HATLEY: I have a question.
8 I can speak loud enough without the
9 microphone. I don't want to confuse
10 the issue any more than it already has
11 been, and with all due respect to my
12 compadre, Mr. Coles. Let's stick with
13 talking about deer right now, and we
Page 79
14 are going to talk about tagging
15 turkeys. We can't even understand
16 what the -- what we call -- we can't
17 understand what we are talking about
18 here on deer population, so I think we
19 are rambling too much. Let's stay
20 with deer.
21
(Audience applause.)
22
MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Jones, do you
23 have a comment on that?
0148
1
MR. JONES: No, I have a
2 question. If he were to impose a buck
3 limit in Alabama -- one of you guys
4 jump in -- using the data that was
5 given 280,000, 211,000 bucks and so
6 forth, will you still be able to
7 monitor that in such a way next year
8 so that we could see if there was any
9 result?
10
MR. MOODY: It's our survey -11
MR. CHAIRMAN: Start again,
12 Mr. Moody, you overran him. Go ahead
13 again.
14
MR. MOODY: I'm sorry. Yeah, it
15 would be our survey, so we would be
16 the one that -- the methodology of our
17 survey is to ask questions of the
18 hunting public and expect to get
19 reasonable, straightforward answers
20 back. Chances are that we would
21 not get a totally truthful answer.
22 Like most states, we would be put in a
23 position that we would only know what
0149
1 the legal kill would be. And at that
2 point -- right now there is not an
3 illegal killing in bucks, so if
4 somebody kills five, six or seven,
5 they will tell us. So that would be a
6 component that we would not be able to
7 measure if there is an illegal
8 harvest. And every other state is the
9 same position. They will tell you
10 that their estimates do not include a
Page 80
11 certain percentage, and they don't
12 know what that percentage is either.
13
14 questions, comments, information?
15
Dr. Strickland.
16
DR. STRICKLAND: On the
17 recommendation of the buck committee,
18 Mr. Chairman, commissioner, I would
19 like to make a motion to adopt a
20 three-buck limit with one buck having
21 at least four points on one side for
22 the state of Alabama. The specifics
23 for validation of buck harvest be
0150
1 worked out by conservation officers.
2
MR. CHAIRMAN: There is a motion.
3 Is there a second?
4
MR. HARBIN: Second.
5
MR. CHAIRMAN: There is a motion
6 and a second.
7
Dr. Strickland, for
8 clarification, will you reread your
9 motion.
10
DR. STRICKLAND: The motion is to
11 adopt a three-buck limit with one buck
12 having at least four points on one
13 side. With the specifics for
14 validation of buck harvest be worked
15 out by conservation officers.
16
MR. CHAIRMAN: Dr. Strickland, do
17 you have any discussion?
18
DR. STRICKLAND: No discussion.
19
MR. CHAIRMAN: Okay. Harbin.
20
MR. JONES: Dr. Strickland, for
21 clarification only, verification
22 system, if you will, you said that it
23 worked as the conservation officers
0151
1 who? Is that you?
2
DR. STRICKLAND: That would be
3 me, yes.
4
MR. JONES: I guess one problem I
5 consistently had with some sort of
6 verification system is -- first of
7 all, I just don't think a verification
Page 81
8 system works. Number two is lifetime
9 license holders within the state of
10 Alabama were promised when lifetime
11 licenses were issued that they would
12 not ever have to go back and get any
13 other additional forms or papers.
14 This happened when salt water licenses
15 were introduced, and those licensees
16 were grandfathered in, and I guess
17 that's been one of my big hang ups is
18 a verification system. I'm not sure
19 it will help. And number two, I have
20 a feeling it would cause somewhat of
21 an undue burden on some of our current
22 license holders. And I guess if you
23 will allow us a discussion on that,
0152
1 Dr. Strickland.
2
MR. ANDRESS: Can you hear me?
3
There's been a lot of discussion
4 about how this impacts deer, but I
5 think there has been very little
6 discussion about how it is going to
7 impact people. That is how -- the
8 important element is that is how it is
9 going to directly impact people out
10 there. And after all, that's what we
11 are managing the deer for in the first
12 place.
13
The committee report I read, it
14 contains a number of statements and
15 opinions by enforcement. And they
16 acknowledge that it's an important key
17 element for this whole thing.
18 However, enforcement did not have any
19 input into the content of that report.
20
And I'd like to add that now if I
21 could, if I could be allowed to do
22 that.
23
MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Jones, would
0153
1 you like to comment?
2
MR. ANDRESS: Sure. The
3 enforcement section will be
4 responsible for the implementations of
Page 82
5 anything that's done here today.
6
Duplicate licenses and tags are
7 major obstacles as we see it. There
8 are a number of methods by which
9 people can do that. It is not a
10 felony. I think that was referred to
11 in the report. It's not a felony. As
12 a matter of fact, to my knowledge it
13 is not even against the law to get a
14 duplicate license. You can give false
15 information. We do not have a system
16 in place for detecting or preventing
17 that kind of thing from happening.
18
Landowners and their immediately
19 families, they are license exempt by
20 the state. A mechanism would have to
21 be developed to accommodate those.
22 There, again, you have got an
23 opportunity for people to have a
0154
1 duplicate set of licenses due to that
2 exception.
3
Lifetime license holders -- there
4 are over 34,000 lifetime license
5 hunters in this state. Arrangements
6 would have to be made for them. Like
7 you said, there was some understanding
8 on their part when they originally
9 bought their licenses that they would
10 not have to go back through the
11 license process.
12
We have an estimated 56,000
13 hunters under the age of 16 that
14 nobody discussed yet. That would
15 have -- that issue would have to be
16 taken care of. Over 65, some military
17 people would also be able to obtain
18 tags.
19
Again, there is no system in
20 place now that would prevent or detect
21 issuance of duplicate tags.
22
Donation of deer, the simple
23 donation of deer would have to be
0155
1 addressed as an important point. If
Page 83
2 that's not dealt with, then any deer
3 you come across is subject to the
4 claim that it was donated, and
5 therefore rendering the process
6 possibly ineffective. That would also
7 put an additional responsibility on
8 the donor and the recipient.
9
Currently we do not have any
10 authority to inspect or search deer
11 processors except by consent or by
12 search warrant. If we are going to be
13 doing that, we probably need to
14 involve them in the decision making
15 process too. But we don't have any
16 authority to do that. We do that by
17 consent or by search warrant.
18
Also bear in mind that deer
19 processors don't see all the deer that
20 come through. Significant numbers
21 that I know are home processed.
22
As far as tags are concerned, we
23 have had some experience with tags
0156
1 before under the DMP program. We
2 tagged does at one time.
3
However, what we found was that
4 most of the people that we encountered
5 most frequently were simple accidental
6 or incidental or inadvertent mistakes.
7
Now, we discontinued that program
8 because of that tagging of those deer
9 we found we could get just as good
10 results without the extra bureaucracy
11 and expense.
12
I spoke with Chief Terry West in
13 Georgia about their system. He
14 indicated to me that, of course, they
15 have a system whereby you simply
16 validate the back of the license. You
17 fill it out with the date and county,
18 I think it is.
19
One more common evasive tactic
20 they use there is to keep that tag
21 very handy to the violator and it
22 takes a matter of a couple of seconds
Page 84
23 to fill it out. There is very little
0157
1 officers can do about it. It is hard
2 to detect.
3
From an enforcement standpoint,
4 it is also important to remember, I
5 think, the violator doesn't have to
6 get away with all of the bucks that he
7 kills. Only the bucks that are over
8 the limit.
9
So our opportunity to actually
10 contact that violator when he's in the
11 act of violating is reduced by that
12 fact.
13
The law enforcement
14 administrators that we have talked to
15 in other states in the regions that
16 have buck limit, tags are Arkansas,
17 Louisiana, Tennessee, Georgia,
18 Kentucky. When asked what their
19 noncompliance on nonresponse rates
20 were, they told me that they did not
21 know which really says that they don't
22 really know how many bucks they are
23 killing. They only know how many are
0158
1 reported, and this may be giving them
2 a false sense of success when in fact
3 it is just how many are reported, not
4 how many are actually killed.
5
From an officer's standpoint, as
6 it stands right now just hearing a
7 shot is not a particularly meaningful
8 event. If this measure passes, then
9 every shot we hear would then become a
10 potential violator, and we will be
11 compelled to run those shots down
12 every opportunity that we get. And it
13 will be every shot that we hear when
14 we can, and there is no -- it will be
15 on everybody's place. It won't be
16 just on, you know, somebody's land
17 that a hunter thinks is doing wrong,
18 it will be on everybody's land.
19
Based on our experience, we are
Page 85
20 as likely to encounter inadvertent
21 mistakes as you are a potential
22 violator.
23
After all, the violators are
0159
1 trying to hide where the
2 well-intentioned hunter is not.
3
While it may be true that the
4 majority of the hunters will answer
5 yes if you ask do they want a buck
6 limit, but I'm not sure that they
7 fully understand the realities that
8 come along with a buck limit.
9
One additional burden that is
10 being placed on the hunter is that
11 every time -- once they reached their
12 limit, every time they attempt to
13 shoot a doe, they run the risk of
14 taking a buck deer over the limit by
15 accident. Not everybody has a luxury
16 of hunting from a food plot and good
17 daylight with a high powered rifle
18 with a good scope. So that risk of
19 taking illegal deer exists. If you
20 attach an antler restriction to it, it
21 goes up, the risk goes up
22 substantially.
23
I think it is important for the
0160
1 hunters to know that the spikes they
2 kill will count. Malformed deer will
3 count. Sick, injured bucks that they
4 kill will count. Every single deer
5 will count, and it won't matter
6 whether those deer are confined to
7 your property by a natural, manmade
8 barrier. It won't matter. No matter
9 how much you manage or preserve those
10 bucks, the limit is going to be the
11 limit.
12
And, of course, we talked about
13 all of the license exempt people.
14 There are quite a few people though
15 that are going to have to go through
16 the licensing process.
Page 86
17
The allowable buck harvest would
18 increase with the hunter density
19 rather than the deer density.
20
To put that in perspective under
21 a three-buck limit a 40-acre tract
22 with four hunters would be allowed 12
23 bucks, an extreme overharvest. Now,
0161
1 the same four hunters on 4,000 acres
2 will be allowed the same 12 bucks,
3 most likely an underharvest. Now, you
4 know, that that needs to be
5 considered. You manage land on a
6 tract-by-tract basis, not on an
7 average.
8
Now, as hunter density increase,
9 you are going to have the same
10 over-harvest potential that we had
11 before. In areas with low hunter
12 density, we are going to possibly have
13 some problem keeping the total deer
14 number down. But it will apply to
15 everybody. And it's true enough that
16 it will be difficult, if not
17 impossible to enforce it.
18
But the landowners who have low
19 hunter density in a large tract of
20 land will have to make a decision if
21 the three-buck limit goes in, you
22 know, if they have got an
23 overpopulation problem, they are going
0162
1 to have to make a decision. If
2 killing three bucks per hunter on
3 their property is not enough, they are
4 going to have to make a decision, you
5 know, do I violate the law and do
6 what's biologically sound, or do I
7 abide by the law and watch my deer
8 deteriorate.
9
This whole issue is very
10 complicated. It is not simple at all.
11 But according to the AWF study, they
12 quote 64 percent of all licensed
13 hunters and 72 percent of AWF members
Page 87
14 gave the deer management program in
15 Alabama a satisfactory rating. Now,
16 that's pretty high.
17
So my only recommendation would
18 be with that high of level of approval
19 and with a level of success that our
20 landowners in our state have
21 demonstrated they are capable of
22 making good management decisions. Our
23 recommendation is to take a close look
0163
1 at this. As matter of fact, I would
2 recommend more public meetings on
3 this. I'm not sure people fully
4 understand what they are getting in
5 to.
6
I will hush at this point.
7
8 you have anymore discussion on your
9 motion?
10
MR. GOODWYN: We can't hear.
11
MR. CHAIRMAN: You have to speak
12 in the microphone.
13
DR. STRICKLAND: In my motion,
14 there was no room for -- there was no
15 concern with tagging. Did you
16 understand what -- I want the board to
17 understand that that motion did not
18 include tags.
19
MR. CHAIRMAN: Okay, no tags.
20
DR. STRICKLAND: No tags. I just
21 wanted to make sure you understand.
22
MR. COLES: To clarify where I
23 was coming from and to maybe redirect
0164
1 some of what you said, I would say
2 leave it up to these guys to decide
3 the implementation process, if any.
4
DR. STRICKLAND: Actually, I'm
5 against tagging.
6
MR. ANDRESS: I want to make sure
7 you understand what the
8 implementations were before I went on.
9
10 discussions from the board?
Page 88
11
Mr. Lynch.
12
MR. LYNCH: You brought up the
13 large landowners. Ross and I were
14 talking -- he couldn't be here because
15 he has health problems, but that was
16 one of his issues.
17
But in the past, large landowners
18 have been able to work with y'all and
19 get additional management tags for
20 does, correct?
21
MR. MOODY: When we first started
22 the deer management program, yes,
23 there was a set number or an estimated
0165
1 of doe tags that were given out on
2 individual properties, yes.
3
MR. LYNCH: Couldn't that also
4 possibly, if there was some type of
5 restrictions placed on bucks and
6 somebody could prove to y'all
7 biologically they needed to take more
8 off a given piece of property, you
9 could do the same thing for the buck?
10
MR. MOODY: I think that would be
11 possible. But where to draw the line
12 on who gets it, who don't, who
13 doesn't, how much land is enough, and
14 whether or not they have enough deer
15 to justify would be an issue.
16
MR. LYNCH: I realize it's a
17 judgment call on y'all, but you made
18 it before when you were trying to
19 balance the herd in a different way.
20
MR. MOODY: Yeah.
21
MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Coles?
22
MR. COLES: Yes, I have a
23 question for Allen and Gary.
0166
1
If buck limits is bad, why do we
2 have limits on dove, quail, rabbits
3 squirrel, fox, woodcock, snipe, rail,
4 water foul, and then the limits on the
5 fish we see too numerous to mention
6 here for time.
7
MR. ANDRESS: We don't have a
Page 89
8 season limit. We are talking about -9 daily limit. I didn't know we were
10 discussing daily limits, but deer and
11 turkey only have season limits on
12 them.
13
MR. MOODY: Mr. Coles, I
14 understand your question and the
15 implications, and, again, we look very
16 closely at the harvest rates and what
17 is actually going on the ground, what
18 the hunters are putting on the ground.
19
If we felt like a buck limit was
20 necessary to get the hunters to make a
21 choice, we would be the one leading
22 charge for this. If we haven't seen a
23 dramatic decrease in buck harvest in
0167
1 the past ten years, we would be
2 leading charge with this.
3
There is nothing to indicate that
4 the trend is still not down, and there
5 is still nothing to indicate the
6 number that is success, what is
7 success. And, you know, we make a
8 major shift here and major change
9 that -- the best that we -- send a
10 message, and I'm not sure that the
11 hunters don't already have that
12 message. No one literally thinks they
13 can harvest a buck a day and nobody
14 tries to harvest a buck a day.
15
Our message has never been that
16 that is what you should do. In fact,
17 it has been exactly the opposite of
18 that very strongly.
19
MR. COLES: Thank you.
20 Mr. Chairman, that's all the
21 questions. I call for questions.
22
MR. CHAIRMAN: Calls for
23 question. A second.
0168
1
MR. JONES: Second.
2
Any discussion on calls for
3 question?
4
All those in favor of calls for
Page 90
5 question raise your hand.
6
All opposed.
7
MR. CHAIRMAN: The motion again
8 is Dr. Strickland if you would read
9 it.
10
MR. STRICKLAND: The motion is to
11 adopt a three-buck limit with one buck
12 having at least four points on one
13 side in the state of Alabama. And as
14 we spoke earlier the specifics for
15 validation of that buck harvest is up
16 to the conservation officers.
17
MR. CHAIRMAN: All those in favor
18 of the motion raise your hand.
19
MS. NUMMY: Keep your hand up for
20 a second, please.
21
22 show seven for it.
23
All opposed?
0169
1
Let the record show two opposed.
2
Motion passes.
3
The next order of old business is
4 seasons and limits.
5
Commissioner, do you want to talk
6 on that?
7
Corky Pugh.
8
COMMISSIONER LAWLEY: Based on
9 the season herd at the previous
10 meeting, I think what we need to do is
11 forward to adopt those seasons and
12 limits.
13
Fred, are you aware of any other
14 matter related to that?
15
MR. CHAIRMAN: Didn't we adopt it
16 at the last meeting, Mr. Pugh?
17
MR. PUGH: No.
18
MR. CHAIRMAN: So we still need
19 to get that done. Just a motion to
20 adopt?
21
MR. PUGH: Yes.
22
MR. CHAIRMAN: With the changes
23 that go on today, we perceived in
0170
1 those if that was adopted, would that
Page 91
2 be correct, we just changed the bag
3 limit today? So that would include
4 the new bag limits, is that correct?
5
MR. PUGH: That would be my
6 understanding.
7
MR. CHAIRMAN: Do I have a motion
8 from the board for that?
9
MR. LYNCH: Motion.
10
MR. JONES: Second.
11
MR. CHAIRMAN: I have a motion
12 and second. The motion is to approve
13 all department regulations since the
14 last approval with any changes for
15 today. Any discussion?
16
(No response.)
17
MR. CHAIRMAN: All those in
18 favor?
19
All opposed?
20
Let the record show no
21 opposition.
22
The next -- I tell you what let's
23 do right now, that was a long, long
0171
1 session. Let's take a break. It is
2 11:30 right now. Please be back
3 approximately in 15 minutes. We will
4 start again and move along with the
5 meeting.
6
(Recess taken.)
7
The meeting will come back to
8 order.
9
We have got two items as we go
10 into new business that we need to
11 clarify that was brought to our
12 attention during the recess. One is
13 that on the last vote, let it be noted
14 that Mr. Harbin abstained and did not
15 vote. However, the measure still
16 passes. Mr. Harbin was abstained.
17
The other on the motion to
18 approve all department regulations
19 since the last approval should also be
20 seasons and bag limits.
21
Any other discussion on that,
22 Mr. Moody?
Page 92
23
(No verbal response.)
0172
1
MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Harbin?
2
(No verbal response.)
3
MR. CHAIRMAN: Okay. Very good.
4
The next order of business is new
5 business. Is there any new business?
6
Mr. Johnson.
7
MR. JOHNSON: I have a motion.
8
MR. CHAIRMAN: Go ahead.
9
MR. JOHNSON: Due to problems
10 encountered between landowners and dog
11 deer hunters in Tuscaloosa County and
12 in Pickens County, I propose a ban on
13 dog deer hunting in Tuscaloosa County
14 Highway 82 north and in Pickens County
15 Highway 63 south of Highway 82 to
16 Benevela and Highway 2 back to
17 Tuscaloosa.
18
MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Johnson, read
19 that one more time, please.
20
Was this discussed at the last
21 meeting, Mr. Johnson?
22
MR. JOHNSON: Part of this was
23 discussed at the meeting in February
0173
1 in which John Ingram, I believe,
2 corrected at the time, and also some
3 of them in north Tuscaloosa county.
4
MR. CHAIRMAN: Please be certain
5 with -- anyone with any motion to do
6 business, please be certain they were
7 discussed at a prior meeting this
8 year.
9
MR. JOHNSON: Do you need me to
10 read it again?
11
MR. CHAIRMAN: Go ahead,
12 Mr. Johnson, reread the motion again.
13
MR. JOHNSON: Due to problems
14 encountered between landowners and dog
15 deer hunters in Tuscaloosa County and
16 in Pickens County, I propose a ban on
17 dog deer hunting in Tuscaloosa County
18 north of Highway 82 and Pickens County
19 from Highway 63 south of Highway 82 to
Page 93
20 Benevela and Highway 2 back to 82.
21
MR. CHAIRMAN: There is a motion.
22 Is there a second?
23
MR. HARBIN: Second.
0174
1
MR. CHAIRMAN: There is a second.
2
The motion is -- Mr. Johnson read
3 it again. We are going extremely by
4 the books.
5
MR. JOHNSON: The motion is due
6 to problems encountered between
7 landowners and dog deer hunters in
8 Tuscaloosa County and in Pickens
9 County, I propose a ban on dog deer
10 hunting in Tuscaloosa County north of
11 Highway 82 and Pickens County from
12 Highway 63 south of Highway 82 to
13 Benevela and Highway 2 back to Highway
14 82.
15
MR. CHAIRMAN: Okay. Any
16 discussion? Mr. Johnson, you have the
17 first option for discussion.
18
MR. JOHNSON: No.
19
MR. CHAIRMAN: No discussion.
20
Any other discussions from any
21 other board member?
22
COMMISSIONER SPARKS: This is the
23 first time I have seen it. I
0175
1 understand what the problem really is
2 there. This is the first time I had
3 an opportunity to look at it.
4
MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Johnson, can
5 you address Mr. Sparks question?
6
MR. JOHNSON: Yes. I don't
7 recall the exact date, but Wayne May
8 and I met with the group from
9 Tuscaloosa and the Pickens County, and
10 we discussed and listened to their
11 problems. They also attended -- John
12 Ingram attended the meeting in
13 February. I forgot exactly what date
14 it was, but in north Tuscaloosa County
15 at Samantha on the super bowel Sunday,
16 and we had 79 people there. Most of
Page 94
17 these or a large portion of them were
18 from the Tuscaloosa area. All -19 there were 79 people in attendance.
20 All except one spoke in favor of
21 banning the dog deer hunting. So the
22 problems are continuing to move in
23 that direction, and I told them that I
0176
1 would address it here at our meeting.
2 Thank you.
3
MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Sparks, is
4 that sufficient?
5
COMMISSIONER SPARKS: I guess,
6 Mr. Chairman. I know that you know I
7 see these come across my desk a lot.
8 I guess what's the difference from
9 Tuscaloosa, Fayette, across the state.
10 I was -- it is my understanding that
11 we were trying to move to a positive
12 resolution of some sort, and I just
13 wonder what effect this will have on
14 other counties and decisions we are
15 going to have to make in the future.
16
MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Andress, is
17 the game warden here for that county?
18
MR. ANDRESS: If you will give me
19 a moment, I think I will find him.
20 Captain Johnson.
21
MR. SANDERS: Captain Sanford.
22
MR. CHAIRMAN: Captain Sanford,
23 will you approach the microphone,
0177
1 please.
2
3
MR. SANFORD: Yes. This is just
4 a small area that involves north
5 Tuscaloosa County along the Fayette
6 County line. And then in the Pickens
7 County area next to the Tuscaloosa
8 county line.
9
MR. CHAIRMAN: Do you -- are you
10 familiar with any complaints in that
11 area?
12
MR. SANFORD: Yeah, there has
13 been complaints in the past. We have
Page 95
14 had some problem in that area.
15
MR. STRICKLAND: Can you tell us
16 a little bit about the problem?
17
MR. SANFORD: The problem in the
18 Tuscaloosa County, I think, is a
19 carryover from Fayette County down
20 along the line there. They may have
21 some property in the Tuscaloosa
22 County.
23
Over in Pickens County, it's
0178
1 basically one hunting club in that
2 little block area where we are having
3 problems.
4
MR. STRICKLAND: When you say
5 "problems," are you getting a lot of
6 complaints from private landowners?
7
MR. SANFORD: Private landowners
8 hunting on their property and hunting
9 from the road.
10
MR. JOHNSON: I might say also
11 that we met with the dog deer hunting
12 groups there, May and myself, and
13 after meeting with the landowners and
14 also a member of one of the landowners
15 there is on the sheriffs board there
16 in Tuscaloosa County, and he -- they
17 had a petition and which is signed. I
18 think he had 79 names of landowners
19 for people that were in support of
20 this.
21
MR. CHAIRMAN: Repeat those
22 figures one more time, Mr. Johnson,
23 the cell phone was ringing.
0179
1
MR. JOHNSON: We met with the dog
2 hunting, deer hunting group there and
3 talked with them immediately following
4 our visit with the landowners. There
5 were -- I believe there were 79
6 landowners in that particular area
7 there that had signed the petition
8 that they had. And I think that is
9 the major part of it right there. But
10 we did meet -- immediately following
Page 96
11 the meeting with the landowners, we
12 met with the hunting club in which we
13 gave them an opportunity to discuss
14 this also.
15
And one of the members from the
16 landowners group and hunting group out
17 there is on the sheriffs force in
18 Tuscaloosa County, and he was very
19 adamant about the complaint.
20
MR. CHAIRMAN: Okay. Any other
21 discussion?
22
(No response)
23
MR. CHAIRMAN: There being no
0180
1 further discussion.
2
Mr. Sparks, go ahead.
3
COMMISSIONER SPARKS: I have one
4 more question for the officer. In
5 your opinion, is this a situation that
6 you feel like is under control or out
7 of control?
8
MR. ANDRESS: Mr. Sparks, I'm not
9 sure whether we can give a
10 satisfactory answer or not. I'm not
11 sure if in this line of work we have
12 ever got anything under control.
13
COMMISSIONER SPARKS: But this is
14 his jurisdiction?
15
MR. ANDRESS: Yes.
16
COMMISSIONER SPARKS: Then he
17 should have a better handle on it than
18 anybody in this room whether this is
19 something that warrants a drastic
20 move, or does he feel like that he
21 pretty well has it under control with
22 the enforcement that he's been able to
23 do, or is there additional enforcement
0181
1 that needs to happen? I would love to
2 hear the opinion of the officer.
3
MR. SANFORD: The area over in
4 Pickens County has become a lot better
5 in the past two years. I feel like it
6 is being controlled a lot better. The
7 area in north Tuscaloosa County is -Page 97
8 like I said, it is like a carryover
9 from Fayette County now, and it
10 probably does need some more
11 enforcement up there.
12
MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Hatley.
13
MR. HATLEY: Do you think we -14 A. I think as populated as we are
15 now, any time that you have dog deer
16 hunting, you are going to have some
17 problems. If the people would get
18 together and police themselves and try
19 to talk to their own, I think, you
20 know, it could get better. I'm not
21 sure about Fayette County. I think
22 it's just a small portion in the north
23 end of Tuscaloosa County that we have
0182
1 problems.
2
3 discussions on the motion?
4
(No response).
5
MR. CHAIRMAN: Then, Mr. Johnson,
6 will you reread the motion?
7
MR. JOHNSON: The motion is due
8 to problems encountered between
9 landowners and dog deer hunters in
10 Tuscaloosa County and in Pickens
11 County, I propose a ban on dog deer
12 hunting in Tuscaloosa County Highway
13 82 north and in Pickens County Highway
14 63 south of Highway 82 to Benevela and
15 Highway 2 back to Tuscaloosa.
16
17 raise your hand.
18
Eight.
19
All oppose.
20
(Hatley and Sparks oppose).
21
MR. CHAIRMAN: The motion passes
22 eight to two.
23
Y'all recorded everybody's vote?
0183
1
Any new business? Any other
2 motions?
3
DR. MAY: I have a couple
4 motions.
Page 98
5
MR. CHAIRMAN: Dr. May.
6
DR. MAY: I have a motion. If
7 you recall we had a couple of
8 gentlemen here back in February from
9 Perry County having problems with dog
10 deer hunting. They were standing in
11 the road, firing there and turning
12 their animals, dogs, loose and turning
13 several thousand acres.
14
It is a wonder one house has been
15 shot through.
16
MS. NUMMY: We can't hear you.
17
DR. MAY: That's the reason these
18 motions are being made. I have two
19 motions. One pertains to Hale County;
20 one pertains to Perry County. Both
21 areas of this hunting area are joined.
22 The reason I make it in two motions is
23 because it is in two different
0184
1 counties even though it will be in one
2 area of land.
3
The motion reads that dog deer
4 hunting be banned in the following
5 described area in Perry County.
6
Starting at the Hale-Perry County
7 line -- if everyone is looking at
8 their map -- travel east on the Perry
9 County Road known as the Morgan Spring
10 Road to Morgan Springs. From Morgan
11 Springs, travel north on Perry County
12 Road Number 23 until it intersects
13 Perry County Road Number 29. Follow
14 Perry County Road Number 29 to the
15 community of North Perry. From North
16 Perry, follow County Road Number 23
17 north to the Talladega National Forest
18 boundary. Then follow the boundary
19 east until it intersects with the
20 Hale-Perry County line. Then follow
21 the Hale-Perry county line south to
22 the point of beginning.
23
That's the area of Perry County.
0185
1
MR. CHAIRMAN: Is there a second?
Page 99
2
MR. HATLEY: Second the motion.
3
MR. CHAIRMAN: The motion being
4 again starting at the Hale-Perry
5 County line, travel east on the Perry
6 County Road known as the Morgan Spring
7 Road to Morgan Springs. From Morgan
15 boundary; then follow the boundary
17 Hale-Perry County line; then follow
18 the Hale-Perry County line south to
20
Any discussion?
21
MR. JOHNSON: A point of order,
22 do we need two separate motions like
23 two counties? Do we need two separate
0186
1 motions?
2
MR. CHAIRMAN: You were going to
3 have separate motions, isn't that
4 correct, Dr. May?
5
MS. NUMMY: One at a time.
6
MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Johnson?
7
MR. JOHNSON: I attended a
8 meeting there in the community with
9 Wayne on this, and we traveled the
10 road and was pointed out certain
11 areas, the house that had been shot
12 from people standing on the road, and
13 they have got problems there.
14
15 discussions?
16
Mr. Hatley. Could you speak in
17 the microphone.
18
MR. HATLEY: You said that house
19 was shot with a high powered rifle?
20
MR. MAY: Right.
21
MR. HATLEY: Dog deer hunters?
22
MR. MAY: Shooting from the road.
Page 100
MR. HATLEY: I thought most dog
23
0187
1 deer hunters use shotguns.
2
MR. MAY: I talked with the
3 warden in Perry County whose name is
4 Ken Daniels, and he verified all of
5 this that actually happened. So it
6 wasn't something landowners just came
7 up and suggested.
8
9 discussion from the board?
10
(No response).
11
MR. CHAIRMAN: All right. The
12 motion again before we vote,.
13
Starting at the Hale-Perry County
14 line, travel east on the Perry County
15 Road known as the Morgan Spring Road
16 to Morgan Springs. From Morgan
0188
1 boundary; then follow the boundary
3 Hale-Perry County line; then follow
4 the Hale-Perry County line south to
6
All of those in favor raise your
7 hand.
8
All opposed.
9
Let the record show one opposed.
10
(Hatley opposed)
11
MR. CHAIRMAN: Motion passed.
12
MR. MAY: The second motion
13 pertains to Hale County. That dog
14 deer hunting be banned in the
15 following described area in Hale
16 County: Beginning at the Hale-Perry
17 County line, travel west on Hale
18 County Road Number 32 west until it
19 intersects State Highway Number 25. I
Page 101
20 will say this that Highway 32 is the
21 same as Morgan Spring Road. Then
22 travel north on State Highway Number
23 25 until it intersects the Talladega
0189
1 National Forest boundary; then follow
2 the Talladega National Forest boundary
3 south until it intersects the Perry
4 County line; then follow the
5 Hale-Perry County line south to the
6 point of beginning.
7
MR. CHAIRMAN: Is there a motion?
8 There is a motion.
9
Is there a second?
10
There is a motion and second.
11
The motion again is starting at
12 the Hale-Perry County line, travel
13 west on Hale County Road Number 32
14 west until it intersects State Highway
15 Number 25; then travel north on State
16 Highway Number 25 until it intersects
17 the Talladega National Forest
18 boundary; then follow the Talladega
19 National Forest boundary south until
20 it intersects the Perry County line;
21 then follow the Hale-Perry County line
22 south to the point of beginning.
23
Any discussion? Dr. May, you
0190
1 have first option.
2
DR. MAY: I have no further
3 discussion.
4
5 discussion by the board?
6
(No response).
7
MR. CHAIRMAN: Then being the
8 motion starting at the Hale-Perry
9 County line, travel west on Hale
10 County Road Number 32 west until it
11 intersects State Highway Number 25. I
12 will say this that Highway 32 is the
13 same as Morgan Spring Road. Then
14 travel north on State Highway Number
15 25 until it intersects the Talladega
16 National Forest boundary; then follow
Page 102
17 the Talladega National Forest boundary
18 south until it intersects the Perry
19 County line; then follow the
20 Hale-Perry County line south to the
21 point of beginning.
22
All those in favor raise your
23 hand.
0191
1
All those opposed?
2
The motion passes.
3
MS. NUMMY: Mr. Hatley, did you
4 abstain?
5
MR. HATLEY: I abstained.
6
MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Hatley
7 abstained. Any others abstain?
8
(No response)
9
10 show Mr. Hatley abstained. The order
11 is closed. The motion carries.
12
Any other new business?
13
DR. STRICKLAND: Yes.
14
MR. CHAIRMAN: Dr. Strickland.
15
DR. STRICKLAND: One issue that I
16 brought up on previous board meetings,
17 but I would like to bring it up again
18 for discussion. A couple of seasons
19 ago the crossbow was introduced into
20 the general archery season. I think
21 it was a means of increasing the deer
22 harvest number for the state of
23 Alabama. It probably has minimum
0192
1 impact on the number of deer that was
2 harvested. It was little impact both
3 statewide and nationally.
4
One of the things I would like to
5 see this board do is to revisit the
6 possible season in the general archery
7 season. Most archers of bow hunters
8 do not consider a crossbow a
9 traditional weapon.
10
Now, I don't think there is any
11 opposition for the crossbow for
12 handicap or even for young kids, but
13 for adults who are capable of pulling
Page 103
14 a bow, we really feel that we should
15 remove the crossbow and put it back in
16 the -- move it from the general
17 archery season and put it back where
18 it belongs.
19
I would like to have a discussion
20 on this topic and maybe at the next
21 meeting we can bring this issue up
22 again.
23
0193
1 discussions?
2
MR. HARBIN: I would like to know
3 what he's asking about the crossbow?
4
MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Harbin would
5 like a clarification of what season.
6
DR. STRICKLAND: Right now,
7 Mr. Harbin, the crossbow is in the
8 general archery season. It was placed
9 in the general archery season, and I'm
10 asking to have it removed from the
11 general archery season.
12
MR. HARBIN: That's what I'm
13 asking, where would you put it?
14
DR. STRICKLAND: In the hunting
15 season, but -16
MR. HARBIN: What part of bow
17 season are you willing to give up for
18 the crossbow? The first two weeks?
19 The last two weeks?
20
MR. CHAIRMAN: How would you
21 adjust the crossbow season is the way
22 I take the question?
23
DR. STRICKLAND: Well, it would
0194
1 go back to where it was.
2
MR. HARBIN: I'm glad it is
3 working -4
DR. STRICKLAND: Well, there was
5 no crossbow season. Basically the
6 crossbow, before the introduction into
7 the general archery season, the
8 general archery season was reserved
9 for citizens who could not pull or
10 shoot a traditional bow for medical
Page 104
11 reasons, orthopedic reasons.
12
MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Yeargan, are
13 you still here? Your organization, do
14 they have an opinion on this issue?
15
MR. YEARGAN: Yes, sir.
16
MR. CHAIRMAN: Can you approach
17 the microphone? Would you like to -18
MS. NUMMY: Quiet.
19
MR. YEARGAN: I'm Randy Yeargan.
20 I'm a bow hunter in Alabama. As I'm
21 sure this board is aware, we have been
22 opposed to crossbows in general
23 archery season from the get-go when it
0195
1 started. We'd also like the board to
2 know we concur with what
3 Dr. Strickland says. We would like to
4 see them in the general firearm
5 season, but not in the general archery
6 season.
7
We have never had any opposition
8 to them using the crossbow. We never
9 had any opposition to having handicap
10 hunters shoot a crossbow or elderly
11 hunter who is no longer able to draw a
12 traditional bow. We have got no
13 problem with that. We do not want to
14 keep them out of the woods. We just
15 do not -- as our organization, we do
16 not want crossbows in the general
17 archery season if it's somebody who is
18 able to pull a traditional bow.
19
MR. CHAIRMAN: Would you be
20 opposed to at the next meeting having
21 something prepared to show both sides
22 of this issue, Mr. Yeargan?
23
MR. YEARGAN: Absolutely. I
0196
1 would be happy to.
2
3 you reserve?
4
DR. STRICKLAND: Yes.
5
MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Lynch?
6
MR. LYNCH: Could you have a
7 report how it's considered in other
Page 105
8 states, for the seasons for other
9 states as well?
10
MR. YEARGAN: Sure.
11
MR. LYNCH: Also, Commissioner, I
12 don't know if this is available or
13 not. I'm not sure. It may not be
14 something that is available yet. I
15 would like to see, if we are going to
16 collect this data and so forth, do we
17 have any data available? Has there
18 been any data as to any increase in
19 the number of deer killed with
20 crossbows? Is there any data as to
21 any increase in the arrow revenue,
22 sufficient increase in the revenue in
23 the state from the sale of crossbows
0197
1 or the outdoor industry? I don't
2 know. That may not be available. Do
3 you know?
4
COMMISSIONER LAWLEY: We
5 specifically point to crossbows? Do
6 you have any information?
7
MR. MOODY: Mr. Chairman, I think
8 the first year we had questions about
9 hunting under the crossbows condition,
10 but let me go back and research that
11 and get that and see if we did -- see
12 what information we have got. I just
13 don't remember here.
14
COMMISSIONER LAWLEY:
15 Commissioner, he have no way to know.
16
17
MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Harbin, do you
18 have a question?
19
MR. HARBIN: Yes. I just want to
20 say the crossbow was put in the
21 general bow season because it is a
22 bow. I don't care how you look at it,
23 what your organization looks at it as,
0198
1 a crossbow, a gun, whatever. It is a
2 string and a stick. It was put in for
3 the matter much choice. It was to
4 give people a choice between a
Page 106
5 compound bow and using a cross bow.
6 It was put in there because there was
7 bow hunters that wanted their kids to
8 hunt, their wives wanted to hunt with
9 them. They were unable to use a
10 compound bow, so that's why the
11 crossbow was put in. It wasn't put in
12 for revenue. It was put in by choice,
13 to give everybody a choice. We don't
14 care what the revenue is, how many
15 deer have been killed. Just let these
16 people go to the woods with their
17 families.
18
MR. CHAIRMAN: At the next
19 meeting, we will have an open
20 discussion on it.
21
Okay. Any other new business?
22
MR. LYNCH: I have a question for
23 Corky. At the last couple of meetings
0199
1 there has been some comments about out
2 of state -- losing hunters to out of
3 state, going to other states. Do you
4 have any information about how we are
5 doing in the state on keeping track of
6 out-of-state hunters.
7
MR. PUGH: Yes. There have been
8 some people who have tried to paint a
9 picture of a mass exodus of Alabama
10 hunters from Alabama to Mississippi.
11 The facts do not bear this out. We
12 have got the figures from Mississippi
13 for the years 2001 through 2005.
14 Compared to those our figures,
15 Mississippi nonresident hunting
16 licenses over the five-year period
17 increased by 943. Alabama nonresident
18 hunting licenses by contrast increased
19 3,286. So that's almost three and a
20 half times the number of Mississippi
21 nonresident licenses that increased.
22 In each of the five years, Alabama
23 sold several thousand more nonresident
0200
1 hunting licenses than Mississippi.
Page 107
2 While both states resident license
3 sales declined, Alabama sold
4 significantly more resident licenses
5 than Mississippi in each of the five
6 years.
7
There's some other indicators
8 that you can look at, the National
9 Survey, Alabama is fifth in the nation
10 for retail sales associated with
11 hunting. Mississippi is somewhere
12 down around 22nd. Also, according to
13 the National Survey, some 116,000
14 people over the age of 16 come to
15 Alabama every year to hunt. Another
16 indicator is the work done by US
17 Sportsmans Alliance in concert with
18 NWTF about hunter replacement ratios.
19 Both Mississippi and Alabama have a
20 replacement ratio that is about one to
21 one. That compared very favorably
22 with the national average which is
23 somewhere around point 69 to one.
0201
1
So we and our neighbor to the
2 west are doing a good job of replacing
3 hunters who are leaving the
4 population.
5
We just ask you as advisory board
6 members to help us keep things in
7 perspective when people try to paint
8 some picture of gloom and doom to
9 advance their own agenda.
10
MR. LYNCH: Thank you.
11
MR. CHAIRMAN: Any other new
12 business?
13
Mr. Coles.
14
MR. COLES: I need the
15 microphone.
16
At the February 10th meeting in
17 Montgomery, we had an individual from
18 Dale County, Ms. Monica Carol, who
19 came and presented a petition with 672
20 names requesting a ban on dog deer
21 hunting in Dale County. She was
22 representing those -- well, let me say
Page 108
23 she was representing 670 of those 672
0202
1 because her husband was with her, and
2 I guess she was representing she and
3 her husband both.
4
That being said, I would like to
5 make a motion that we ban the use of
6 dogs for purpose of deer hunting in
7 Dale County, Alabama, and along with
8 that motion -- I have got two
9 counties. Do you want two different
10 motions, Mr. Chairman?
11
MR. CHAIRMAN: It would have to
12 be.
13
MR. COLES: Mr. Phillip Farrell
14 (phonetic) from Bankston, Alabama,
15 came before the board and presented a
16 petition of 71 names asking for a ban
17 on dog deer hunting in Pike County.
18 There is presently one dog deer
19 hunting club in Pike County, and there
20 are two dog deer hunting clubs in Dale
21 County. The -- so I would like to
22 make a motion that we also ban the use
23 of dogs for the purpose of deer
0203
1 hunting in Dale County and Pike
2 County, both counties.
3
MR. CHAIRMAN: Was there a
4 discussion on that at the prior
5 meeting?
6
MR. COLES: February the 10th,
7 yes, sir, there sure was.
8
MR. CHAIRMAN: There is a motion?
9
Is there a second?
10
MR. HARBIN: Yes, second.
11
MR. CHAIRMAN: Is the game warden
12 here? I'm going to break procedure
13 here for just a second.
14
Is the game warden here?
15
MR. COLES: No, sir, the one in
16 my county is retiring today.
17
MR. CHAIRMAN: How about Dale
18 County?
19
MR. COLES No, sir, and the
Page 109
20 supervisor is attending that
21 retirement.
22
MR. CHAIRMAN: Let me get back on
23 track here. Read your motion again.
0204
1 A. MR. COLES:
2
My motion is to ban the use of
3 dogs for the purpose of deer hunting
4 in Dale and Pike Counties.
5
MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Coles, you
6 have first option for discussion.
7
MR. COLES: The problem arises -8 two different problems. Somewhat
9 similar, I guess, it is exactly the
10 same except different. In Pike County
11 this is an old established club that
12 has been in business probably 30 to 40
13 years. About 20 years ago, their
14 violation record was somewhat large
15 and expansive. We put an undercover
16 game warden in that club, and I
17 believe if my memory serves me
18 correctly, when they made this sting,
19 it was 82 tickets that were written to
20 this one particular club. The
21 landowners in this small area of
22 northeast Pike County have met with
23 the dog deer hunters, pleaded with
0205
1 them to keep the intrusion of their
2 dogs off of their property, and they
3 say yes, sir, we will do the best that
4 we can, and 30 minutes later they are
5 back on the land.
6
The game wardens have met with
7 the dog deer hunters with the same
8 response, we will do our best. We
9 will do better and 30 minutes later
10 the dogs are back on the land.
11
In Dale County intrusion of dogs,
12 confrontations between landowners and
13 the dog deer hunters, the landowners
14 will go to try to talk with the dog
15 deer hunters, and there will be one or
16 two residents and within three minutes
Page 110
17 there were 15 present with their guns
18 in their hands.
19
They have complained -- the
20 landowners have complained to the game
21 wardens. The game wardens have gone
22 and talked to the dog deer hunters,
23 and then there is a retaliation that
0206
1 is thrust upon the landowners. Nobody
2 can prove who has done it, but it is
3 only after there is a complaint made
4 to the game warden. And the people
5 just want the use of their land and
6 their property rights restored.
7
8 discussions?
9
One point I would like to make,
10 Mr. Coles, is again to make sure that
11 the board has all the information. If
12 we have the game wardens here to talk
13 on any other counties, I would like
14 to -- I don't know how the board feels
15 about it, but I would like, if we
16 could in the future, if someone has a
17 motion concerning a county, I think
18 there is no difference than them going
19 into the districts of each area, then
20 we need to have those wardens present
21 to speak as was done before.
22
Does anybody else on the board
23 have an opinion on that?
0207
1
MR. COLES: Mr. Chairman, I
2 believe today is the first time we
3 have asked a game warden in the last
4 four years to speak on the issue of
5 dog deer hunting.
6
MR. CHAIRMAN: I think we asked
7 Mr. Andress on several occasions.
8
No one would know that better
9 than Perry County in my opinion, and
10 again for informational purposes of
11 the board to make that decision, I
12 think that would be a good policy, but
13 that's for the board to decide.
Page 111
14
Go ahead, Mr. Coles.
15
MR. COLES: We are putting -- if
16 we are asking for Mr. Andress'
17 supervisory position, and if we are
18 going to ask our game wardens or
19 conservation officers to testify as to
20 the validity of the complaints or
21 what, we are putting them kind of in a
22 bad position in my opinion. They have
23 to work with both the landowners and
0208
1 the hunters. Sure, they should know
2 the issues.
3
MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Andress, do
4 you have a statement on whether that
5 will put your people in a bad
6 position?
7
MR. ANDRESS: Well, I guess it
8 depends. The question was it does put
9 them in a bad position whether they
10 recommend banning dog hunting,
11 recommend not banning dog hunting. It
12 is hard to tell exactly what the case
13 is in a particular area. But we don't
14 feel uncomfortable making reports
15 about how many complaints we have had
16 in certain areas, how many times we
17 have had to respond to that area, and
18 how many different complaints we are
19 having to deal with. That sort of
20 depends on what the question is.
21
MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Coles, that
22 was not my intention to say that we
23 wanted them to recommend whether or
0209
1 not to open or close it, just to say
2 yes, we have this many.
3
MR. COLES: As a point of order,
4 Mr. Chairman?
5
MR. CHAIRMAN: Yes.
6
MR. COLES: We just banned dog
7 deer hunting in Perry County and in
8 Hale County, and I don't think we
9 heard from any conservation officers
10 in those counties.
Page 112
11
MR. CHAIRMAN: All right. Any
12 other comments, any discussion? The
13 motion is again -- Mr. Coles, would
14 you read the motion again?
15
MR. COLES: The motion is to ban
16 the use of dogs for purpose of deer
17 hunting in Dale and Pike Counties.
18
19 raise your hand?
20
All opposed?
21
All abstained?
22
Let the record show one opposed
23 and one abstained.
0210
1
The rest vote for. The motion
2 passes.
3
Mr. Harbin?
4
MR. HARBIN: Mr. Chairman, this
5 is Fayette County, Alabama. I came
6 here today with the motion to close
7 Fayette County to dog deer hunting. I
8 have been asked by several members of
9 the board and others to hold off on my
10 decision on closing Fayette County
11 because they seem to be -- they have
12 got something going that they want to
13 try out. But I want to say this much
14 to you. Fayette County, you are on
15 the leading edge. Everybody is
16 looking at you to see that this
17 illegal dog hunting on this
18 unpermitted land. You have got to get
19 along with our neighbors up there. I
20 don't care whether you like them or
21 you don't like them.
22
All I'm asking you to do is give
23 us an example of just what the dog
0211
1 hunting can be. If it don't, then
2 it's over with. That's it.
3
And I just want to be honest with
4 you people and let you know.
5
6 Mr. Harbin.
7
Any other discussion?
Page 113
8
Mr. Sparks.
9
COMMISSIONER SPARKS: I don't
10 have a discussion. I want to make
11 sort of a clear point if I could.
12
I have all respect for every
13 gentleman that's sitting on this panel
14 up here. Sometimes it's awfully
15 painful to vote your conviction of
16 what you think is right or wrong. But
17 the one thing is that I do not
18 represent one particular district as
19 most of these gentleman do. I
20 represent the whole state, and I'm the
21 only elected official sitting this
22 panel.
23
I just feel like it is hard for
0212
1 me to vote, Mr. Chairman, on
2 particular issues if I have not heard
3 both sides of the argument. And
4 certainly it would be helpful to me if
5 we had reports from the field of the
6 number of complaints and the problems
7 that have come on because I want to
8 give a fair vote. I don't want to
9 vote in the dark. I don't want to
10 hurt somebody because I don't know
11 both sides. And I would like for us
12 to find a way to make sure that we are
13 informed, or that we do set a
14 precedence that we have it all in
15 front of us, and then let us vote on
16 our conviction.
17
But I have sort of been pained
18 today, you know. I don't know -- I
19 have got a million other issues that I
20 have got to deal with on a daily
21 basis, but I certainly want to be
22 fair. And it is hard for me to be
23 fair to vote on something. Now, I
0213
1 have voted both ways. In some
2 situations, I have understood, and
3 some I haven't. And when I don't
4 understand it, I don't have any choice
Page 114
5 in my vote. So I have got to find a
6 better way to learn more about the
7 situation so that I can be fair, and I
8 would hope that there is someway we
9 can get our officers in the field to
10 give us more information on the
11 complaint in that particular area to
12 go with what we are trying to do at
13 our board meeting.
14
15 Commissioner Sparks.
16
MR. LYNCH: And I just finished
17 up six years of service or more and
18 having to listen to the issues for six
19 years, and I can also say that this
20 board has given dog hunting rights
21 right back in the county. But it
22 happens when the dog hunters and the
23 landowners got together, walked up in
0214
1 front of us as a group and said we
2 want to work this out and we would
3 like you to give us a chance.
4
So this board isn't totally
5 against dog hunting, but we sure have
6 shown that we want the landowners to
7 be able to control the rights to his
8 property.
9
So when it's done right, and in
10 Fayette County you have got a chance,
11 we have shown we will support it. But
12 you can't do it by telling us you
13 can't get along with the landowners.
14 You have to work together.
15
I can't remember what county it
16 was where we put it back -- so far as
17 I know, it's working pretty good in
18 that county. So it can work, but it
19 takes a lot of effort from y'all.
20
21 Mr. Lynch.
22
Mr. Harbin.
23
MR. HARBIN: I would like to
0215
1 point out that we do have a dog
Page 115
2 hunting club in Winston County that
3 has never had a problem. Not one
4 problem have they had. They don't get
5 on anybody's land. The old man that
6 runs the club has strict rules. They
7 fine each other. That's all that I'm
8 asking you to do. Stay on your land,
9 keep your dogs where they belong and
10 let the landowners have their land and
11 let them do what they want to do.
12 That way we will all have peace and
13 harmony.
14
MR. CHAIRMAN: I would like to
15 put the challenge to the board that
16 when we come back in February, please
17 have some suggestions along with
18 Mr. Sparks idea. I think it is a
19 great idea. I would like to challenge
20 you as a board to come up with some
21 ideas so that we can have -- we have
22 always stood by as much information as
23 possible and have some ideas that we
0216
1 could do to have more information on
2 these issues before they are voted on.
3
We have one laundry item to clean
4 up. Earlier today we had a motion and
5 a second for Mr. Coles on the minutes.
6 I believe we just said they stand as
7 corrected. However, motions on the
8 table both those are there to be -- as
9 corrected. If we can have a vote on
10 that motion. The motion is the
11 minutes stand approved as corrected.
12
All those in favor?
13
(ALL BOARD MEMBERS SAID "AYE")
14
MR. CHAIRMAN: All opposed?
15
(No response.)
16
MR. CHAIRMAN: Motion carries.
17
The next order of business is the
18 selection and date of the 2008
19 February advisory board meeting. The
20 next conservation advisory meeting
21 will be at the state capital in
22 Montgomery on February 9, 2008.
Page 116
Since there is no further
23
0217
1 business, this meeting stands
2 adjourned.
3
(THE MEETING ADJOURNED
4
AT 12:36 P.M.)
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Page 117

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