(English) Transcript of Trial - United States of America V Russell Defreitas, Abdul Kadir - 7-7-2010

2846
UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT

EASTERN DISTRICT OF NEW YORK
2
-
- X
3
UNITED STATES OF AMERICA,
07-CR-543 (DLI)
U.S. Courthouse
4
v.
5
Brooklyn, New York
6
RUSSELL DEFREITAS,
ABDUL KADIR,
7
Defendants.
July 7, 2010
9:15 o'clock a.m.
8
9
10
- X
TRANSCRIPT OF TRIAL
BEFORE THE HONORABLE DORA L. IRIZARRY
UNITED STATES DISTRICT JUDGE, and a jury.
11
12
APPEARANCES:
13
For the Government:
LORETTA E. LYNCH
United States Attorney
By: MARSHALL MILLER
BERIT BERGER
ZAINAB AHMAD
JASON JONES
Assistant U.S. Attorneys
271 Cadman Plaza East
Brooklyn, New York 11201
For the Defendants:
FEDERAL DEFENDERS
By: MILDRED WHALEN, ESQ.
LEN KAMDANG, ESQ.
For Russell Defreitas
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
KAFAHNI NKRUMAH, ESQ.

TONI MESSINA, ESQ.
For Abdul Kadir
21
22
Court Reporter:
23
24
25
Anthony M. Mancuso
225 Cadman Plaza East
Brooklyn, New York 11201
(718) 613-2419
Proceedings recorded by mechanical stenography, transcript

produced by CAT.
ANTHONY M. MANCUSO,
CSR
OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
2847
1
(Trial resumed.)
(In open court; jury not present.)
MR. MILLER:
Marshall Miller, Jason Jones, Berit
Berger, Zainab Ahmad, joined by Detective Investigator Robert
Addonizio.
MR. KAMDANG:
Len Kamdang of Federal Defenders for
the defendant Defreitas.
shortly.
9
10
MR. NKRUMAH:
Ms. Whalen will be joining us
Kafahni Nkrumah for Mr. Kadir, and
Ms. Messina will be joining us shortly.
11
THE COURT:
Good morning to all of you.
12
We're having a terrible heat wave, and that's
13
causing problems in the Federal Defenders office, and probably
14
will cause transportation delays for the jury.
15
We're here outside of the presence of the jury to
16
address a CIPA motion that was filed by the defense, defense
17
counsel for Mr. Defreitas, joined in by counsel for Mr. Kadir.
18
19
The government had asked for permission to respond

orally, and so I yield the floor to the government.
20
MR. MILLER:
Thank you, your Honor.
21
As Mr. Kamdang indicated yesterday, he and I had
22
spoken about the substance of the motion that's currently
23
pending, and with an eye towards moving towards the heart of
24
the matter rather than lingering on some of the requested
25
discovery issues.
And I think the parties agreed that the
ANTHONY M. MANCUSO,
CSR
2848
1
primary issue here is whether the document in question, which
I'll identify as Government's Exhibit 3500-RJA-18, whether
that document and the information contained in it could be
used in any way by the defense, and whether, in trying to use
the information beyond cross-examination of Detective
Addonizio or Detective Hanratty, such use would require the
disclosure of classified information and thus require CIPA
proceedings in advance.
Mr. Kamdang had, through his motion, requested
10
certain pieces of information relating to the memorandum that
11
I have identified as 3500-RJA-18.
12
THE COURT:
13
MR. MILLER:
14
THE COURT:
15
MR. MILLER:
Can we just call it the 2006 memo?

Yes, your Honor.
It's a little easier.
That's obviously true.
The 2006 memo.
16
And from the government's perspective, the various pieces of
17
information that are requested aren't the subject of discovery
18
under the Federal Rules or under Brady or Giglio, and would
19
only become relevant if the information in the memorandum were
20
somehow admissible in some form beyond use for
21
cross-examination of Detective Addonizio.
22
I wanted to set the stage for what we wanted to
23
argue today, which was that the information in the document is
24
not admissible beyond its use to cross-examine Detective
25
Addonizio or Detective Hanratty, and in order to make that
ANTHONY M. MANCUSO,
CSR
2849
1
point, a few factual points are important.

The first is, the document was written by a third
2
3
party; that is, it was not written by Detective Addonizio or
Detective Hanratty.
not part of the prosecution or investigative team.
for a separate agency, which has not been identified, because
that information is classified.
He works
The document itself does not purport to quote
8
9
That third party, that individual, was
Detective Addonizio or Detective Hanratty, at least in the
10
sections that are identified by the defense as of particular
11
interest, and this document was not adopted by Detective
12
Addonizio or Detective Hanratty in any way.

So, those are important background pieces of
13
14
information about the document.

One other important piece of information about the
15
16
investigation is that Detective Addonizio and Detective
17
Hanratty, neither one of those individuals was the handling
18
agent or detective for the informant.
19
agents.
They were the case
But there was another detective who was the primary
20
21
handler.
Detective Napoli was the primary handler for
22
Mr. Francis.
23
Whittle, who assisted Detective Napoli.
And there was a special agent, Special Agent
24
But the other important factual point here with
25
respect to this memorandum is that it is at least perhaps
ANTHONY M. MANCUSO,
CSR
2850
1
three and perhaps four steps removed from whatever conduct
might be of interest to the Court, the defense, the jury, the
prosecution, and that is, the interactions between Mr. Francis
and the defendants in this case.

So that the informant was obviously the person who
5
6
was interacting with the defendants, and as your Honor is well
aware, he's already on the stand and subject to
cross-examination.
asked the government to insure his availability in case they
His handler, Louis Napoli, the defense has
10
want to call him to impeach something that Mr. Francis
11
testifies to, or if they want to call him to inquire regarding
12
the management and the handling of Mr. Francis.
13
the second step.
So, that's
14
And the third step, it is the case agents, Detective
15
Addonizio and Detective Hanratty, who are interacting with the
16
handler, Detective Napoli, but with respect to tasking
17
Mr. Francis or directing Mr. Francis, that was not their job.
Now, we're at the fourth stage, which is an
18
19
individual, as we discussed, from a different agency, who is
20
taking down nonverbatim statements that weren't adopted by
21
Detective Addonizio and Detective Hanratty, and we're talking
22
about a particular phrase I believe employed by that fourth
23
party, four steps removed from the conduct at issue in this
24
case.
25
I would also note one other background point before
ANTHONY M. MANCUSO,
CSR
2851
1
we get to the law, which is, we have been told by both
defendants that there's no entrapment case here.
the defense.
defense.
of what -- of these statements, to the extent they have any
probative value, given their lack of proximity to the action
in question.
That's not
They have said we're not bringing an entrapment
So, that significantly decreases the probative value
So, at this point, your Honor, it's the government's
position that we turned over this document out of an abundance
10
of caution, because we thought it could be perceived as some
11
sort of Giglio document.
12
Detective Addonizio and Detective Hanratty are
13
available and can be examined on its contents, but the
14
document itself is quite clearly hearsay and inadmissible.
15
And I'm happy to cite a case to your Honor for it, United
16
States v. Almonte, 956 F.2d 27, at page 29, which states that
17
"A third party's characterization of a witness's statement
18
does not constitute a prior statement of that witness unless
19
the witness has subscribed to that characterization or" -- it
20
goes on to say --
21
witness's own words."
22
23
24
25
"it's a verbatim transcript of the
Obviously, neither of those are the case here, so

the document itself is quite clearly inadmissible.
And any testimony from the author of this report
would be extrinsic evidence on an entirely collateral issue,
ANTHONY M. MANCUSO,
CSR
2852
1
given the lack of an entrapment defense here, given the number
of steps that this document is removed from any conduct that
might be of any relevance to this case, and given the
availability of multiple witnesses who actually were involved
in what is relevant here and can be examined by the defense on
those issues.
So, for that reason, your Honor, it's the
7
8
government's view that we don't need to spend the Court's
valuable time engaging in a protracted CIPA process when,
10
without even getting into CIPA at this point, the Rules of
11
Evidence wouldn't allow for any extrinsic use of this document
12
in any way.
13
THE COURT:
14
MR. KAMDANG:
15
Mr. Kamdang, do you wish to respond?
respond to every point.
Yes, your Honor.
I'm going to try and
There were a number of them made.
First of all, I think it's obvious that the document
16
17
as it's been presented right now is hearsay and we're not
18
disputing that.
19
the preparation of Mr. Defreitas's defense, is that we need
20
more information.
We do think what that leads to, in terms of
First of all, we do believe that the document at
21
22
least raises the possibility and the likelihood that there is
23
a witness out there who has direct evidence of government
24
pressure.
25
theory, that we're asking the jury to distill the government's
And that's really at the heart of Mr. Defreitas's
ANTHONY M. MANCUSO,
CSR
2853
1
intent for Mr. Defreitas.
Certainly, to the extent that
there's evidence that the government has, specifically, that
Mr. Annas was specifically acting at the orders of the
government, it goes directly to that defense theory.
THE COURT:
Let me stop you there.
The government contends that neither Detective
Addonizio nor Detective Hanratty were the handlers of the
informant in this case, that he had two other case agents,
special agents, from the Federal Government who were directly
10
responsible for the informant's activity.
And Mr. Francis
11
even, at one point during his direct testimony, talked about
12
informing, I think it was, Agent Napoli at some point of
13
whatever was happening at the moment.
14
point that he was talking about, but I remember he mentioned
15
having some discussion with Agent Napoli about the keys.
16
Already, the investigators are at least a step
I forget the exact
17
removed from just the handling, if you will, of the informant.
18
I kind of hate the idea of handling of a human being.
19
understand what we're talking about here, responsible for
20
guiding the activities of the informant and for getting the
21
reports back from the informant.
22
We all
So, that being said, if Mr. Napoli and Agent Whittle
23
are available to the defense.
24
defense would not be able to cross-examine them about the way
25
-- at least Detective Napoli, who was the primarily handler --
ANTHONY M. MANCUSO,
I don't understand why the
CSR
2854
1
why the defense would not be able to cross-examine him about
what directives the informant was given, how often he
reported, what measures were taken when Mr. Francis wasn't
able to wear a wire, at least according to his testimony, and
so on, payments, consideration, all of that stuff.
mean to limit your questioning, obviously, just citing some
examples of things, if I were in your shoes, those would be
the things -- among the things that I would be interested in
eliciting.
I don't
And to the extent that this memo exists, I don't see
10
11
why Napoli couldn't be crossed and asked, Didn't you at some
12
point agree to increase your efforts?
13
the full court press language, that's up to you.
Or, if you want to use
But this is a collateral issue, and it seems to me
14
15
that we're engaging in a mini trial or another hearing
16
involved in a whole collateral issue, first of all, that
17
neither Hanratty nor Addonizio endorsed the statement.
18
don't know if Napoli endorsed the statement.
19
third party, it's a fourth party.
20
that hasn't been involved in the actual prosecution of this
21
case.
22
It's not even a
It's yet a different agency
So, I don't see why, even having the source of the
23
notes available, it is appropriate here, because there doesn't
24
seem to be any basis for introducing the document, and the
25
document is available for impeachment to the extent that it
ANTHONY M. MANCUSO,
CSR
2855
1
is.
MR. KAMDANG:
THE COURT:
I have two -The other thing that troubles me,
Mr. Kamdang, and perhaps I also want to hear from Mr. Nkrumah
on this issue, I was giving this a great deal of thought since
the issue was raised yesterday, given the statements by the
defense jointly that the defense is not pursuing an entrapment
defense, I fail to see -- as the government says, it somewhat
diminishes whatever critical value this memorandum may have
10
had.
11
informant, I don't know how long the cross-examination is
12
going to be.
13
there concerning interviews of this informant.
14
thirty-plus years of doing nothing but criminal law, I have
15
yet to find that in that situation, there isn't something that
16
some self-respecting lawyer couldn't find as fuel for
17
cross-examination.
18
Given that we're on day three of direct of this
I'm sure that there are lots of reports out

In my
Given all of that, I'm just having a very difficult
19
time understanding why we need to go so far back to the
20
authorship of a document that's three and four times removed.
21
22
MR. KAMDANG:
I'm going to address each of them.
23
THE COURT:
24
MR. KAMDANG:
25
I heard three points from the Court.
Thank you.
With respect to the entrapment issue,
it's true that we're not going with entrapment.
ANTHONY M. MANCUSO,
CSR
I take the
2856
1
government's point.
I think the Court is right, if we were
raising an entrapment defense, that this document would be
more relevant or would be more central to the case.

And I think we put our objection on the record
4
5
before in the previous application.
Because of the late
disclosure, we were not able to really pursue or craft an
acceptable entrapment defense, so we are not pursuing that
now.
But we believe we were precluded from that.

That being said, I do think that the information is
9
10
nevertheless highly relevant and probative, because it's
11
really the one document that we have that gives us any sort of
12
proof of government direction of this witness.

Now, to the extent that the Court is concerned that
13
14
this is a collateral issue, or, I think the way Mr. Miller
15
characterizes it, as three or four steps removed, I also take
16
the point that it was primarily Agent Napoli who was handling
17
or supervising this cooperating witness.

The reason why it's nevertheless relevant is because
18
19
I don't believe -- and I don't presume to know everything
20
about how the government structured its investigations, but I
21
suspect because Agent Addonizio was the lead case agent, that
22
Agent Napoli didn't have the discretionary decision-making
23
authority or full discretionary authority to make all of these
24
calls, and I think that he probably took orders from Agent
25
Addonizio.
That would be something that I would want to
ANTHONY M. MANCUSO,
CSR
2857
1
explore on cross-examination.
THE COURT:
But there's nothing to stop you from
asking any of those questions.
be, for any successful investigation, there has to be
communication among the law enforcement agents, whether it's
those that are out in the field, the ones who are controlling
the undercovers, or the informants or the wiretaps, whatever
situation there is.

MR. KAMDANG:
I would imagine there's got to
To the extent that that investigation
10
is structured that way, that's something that the jury should
11
be able to consider.
12
because if the lead case agents were making these statements,
13
then that would go towards how the jury understands how Agent
14
Napoli gave his orders to Annas.
So, the reason why I bring that up is
15
Now, there's one critical issue here.
16
problem that we have, and the reason why we initially just
17
wanted the initial discovery, there's some questions that we
18
don't know about this document, and I don't want to misstate
19
what I understand about the document from speaking to Mr.
20
Miller.
21
The biggest
Now, from the face of the document, it doesn't look
22
like -- it doesn't explicitly purport to ascribe the
23
statements in question to the lead case agents.
24
The question that I have for the government was, if
25
that witness came in -- and we don't know who that witness is
ANTHONY M. MANCUSO,
CSR
2858
1
-- would that witness testify that that is in fact what those
case agents said?
inquired on that, and I don't think the government knows the
answer to that.
testify that that was the exact language that the agents used
or that somebody used that language, then I think we are in an
impeachment situation, and I do think that we would want to
call that witness.
And I don't think that the government has
And that is -- if that agent would in fact
THE COURT:
But you wouldn't be in an impeachment
10
situation with Addonizio or Hanratty, who are now twice
11
removed.
12
with me for one second.
To the extent -- and I don't even know -- just bear
13
MR. KAMDANG:
14
(Pause.)
15
THE COURT:
Yes, your Honor.
It's not clear who was actually present
16
at this meeting.
17
that -- is Whittle available?
18
I mean, you can certainly, to the extent
MR. MILLER:
I have to look into that.
Detective
19
Napoli took the primary role.
20
stationed abroad.
21
was the primary individual who interacted with Mr. Francis
22
and, I believe, wrote if not all, ninety-nine percent of the
23
binder full of 302's on the case.
24
primary person who would have the information.
25
I think Agent Whittle may be
We have to check on that.
THE COURT:
Detective Napoli
So, he is really the
So, what it seems to me, if Napoli is
ANTHONY M. MANCUSO,
CSR
2859
1
available -- and I certainly don't see any reason why he
shouldn't be made available to the defense -- for the defense
to question in advance of his testimony, certainly with
respect to this particular memo, we may find out he may not
even have been present.

MR. MILLER:
6
7
present, your Honor.
THE COURT:
I know for a fact that he was not
So, if he was not present at this
meeting, now we're talking about hearsay even further removed.
10
It sort of becomes like the telephone game.
You know, one
11
person says one word, and the second person thinks they heard
12
maybe that word, and the third person heard a different word,
13
and by the time you get to the end of the line, it becomes
14
something completely different.

If neither of the two case agents here, Addonizio
15
16
and Hanratty, were present, Mr. Napoli wasn't present at the
17
meeting, then it seems to me that this does fall squarely into
18
the Almonte situation that was cited by the government.
19
pulled up the case here.

MR. KAMDANG:
20
21
was at the meeting.
22
meeting.
23
Your Honor, I don't know if Hanratty
I believe that Agent Addonizio was at the
MR. MILLER:
To go back to the meeting, your Honor,
24
there were, as I understand it, there were four individuals at
25
this meeting.
It was not a -- there were four individuals at
ANTHONY M. MANCUSO,
CSR
2860
1
the meeting.
Two of them were Detective Hanratty and
Detective Addonizio.
Detective Napoli was not at the meeting.
And so, if that assists -- and Detective Hanratty
3
4
and Detective Addonizio and Detective Napoli are all available
to testify at this trial, and Detective Napoli, though
retired, I have spoken to him and made sure that he would
available to testify at this trial as needed by either party.
I understand Detective Hanratty is also retired, but also
available.
10
(Pause.)
11
THE COURT:
12
Mr. Kamdang?
MR. KAMDANG:
13
14
Did you want to add something,
There were two points that I wanted to
add.
15
I understand the hearsay concern, but ultimately,
16
what we seek to show to the jury is the complete picture of
17
the way this investigation was structured.
18
much that -- certainly, what Annas was told by his handlers is
19
relevant, the orders that handler received from his superior
20
is also relevant.
21
this.
I think the jury needs to be able to hear
THE COURT:
22
So, it's not so
I don't see why you can't accomplish
23
that through cross-examination of the handler.
24
goal of the investigation?
25
using?
What was the
You know, what tactics were you
I mean, were you pressing the informant?
ANTHONY M. MANCUSO,
CSR
What
2861
1
2
instructions did you give to the informant?

MR. KAMDANG:
Because I think that there's now a
dispute between the defense and the government as to the level
and degree of pressure that the informant was tasked to do,
and I think that is probably the central issue in this case.
Ultimately, as I read CIPA --
THE COURT:
But see, the problem here is, again,
there is sort of this trickling down, because you have what
seems to be a meeting at a different level.
10
You have people who are perhaps -- I mean no
11
disrespect to the agents -- who are, in terms of the
12
hierarchy, at a different level.
13
managerial and administrative position, as opposed to the line
14
people that are working the case.
15
their assessment is, their assessment is, but in terms of what
16
actually gets done out in the field, then it seems to me
17
that's really what is relevant here.
18
have here is really that you have two agents who may have been
19
present at the meeting, but who nevertheless were not the
20
persons responsible for directly handling --
21
MR. KAMDANG:
22
THE COURT:
They are more in a
So, in terms of whatever
And the problem that we
Our position -The agents were not responsible for
23
directly handling the informant.
24
responsible for handling the informant was not present at the
25
meeting, and it seems to me that whatever that handler
ANTHONY M. MANCUSO,
CSR
The person who was directly
2862
1
conveyed to the informant is really what's critical here.
given the number of reports that he prepared in connection
with this case, it seems to me that there is more than
sufficient -- there are more than sufficient avenues for
cross-examination of that witness other than a three- or
four-times-removed memorandum that doesn't seem to comply with
any of the rules of admissibility, certainly not under the
Second Circuit case law.
MR. KAMDANG:
And
Your Honor, I have never imagined or
10
envisioned that we would seek to admit that document.
11
this is going is ultimately -- and I think the real CIPA
12
problem here is that I think because of the classified issues,
13
Mr. Defreitas's ability to present his defense is compromised,
14
because he doesn't receive the same process and the same
15
ability to present his defense.
16
Where
Normally, what we would do is, we would subpoena
17
that witness, and every trial that I've ever done in federal
18
court, there's an instruction that the judge gives that
19
witnesses are equally available to all parties.
20
the case in this instance, because we can't find out who that
21
witness is, and we can't place that witness under subpoena to
22
bring him to court to make the points that we believe are
23
central to Mr. Defreitas's defense.
24
25
That is not
So, the real concern here is that because of the

CIPA issues, Mr. Defreitas's right to present his defense is
ANTHONY M. MANCUSO,
CSR
2863
1
being undermined.
our defense is something that I think should be in
Mr. Defreitas's discretion, and not a decision for the
government to make, certainly.
The manner in which we proceed to present
Now, if we had all of the information, all of the
information that we requested, then we could have a full and
fair discussion before the Court about whether or not -- where
these issues ultimately go.
information, so we're not in a position where we can really
Right now, we don't have the
10
respond to the government's arguments about who said what at
11
the meeting, what these agents would testify, and even what
12
this mystery witness would say.
13
that information, either.
14
issue here, that because this information is classified, we
15
can't really have this discussion adequately, and that aspect
16
of this case operates to Mr. Defreitas's detriment and
17
undermines his ability to present his defense and our ability
18
to prepare for his trial.
19
MR. MILLER:
20
THE COURT:
21
MR. MILLER:
I don't think the Court has
And I think that is the real CIPA
Judge, can I respond to that?

Sure.
First of all, were this witness named
22
and were Mr. Kamdang to have subpoenaed him, we would be
23
moving to preclude any testimony of his, based on the fact --
24
THE COURT:
25
MR. MILLER:
Say that again.

Were this individual subpoenaed, we
ANTHONY M. MANCUSO,
CSR
2864
1
would be asking the Court, as we are right now in exactly the
same circumstances, to preclude any testimony from that
witness on an extrinsic -- as extrinsic evidence on a
collateral issue, and your Honor would be presented with
exactly the same situation, and your Honor would make whatever
ruling your Honor makes.
To say that the CIPA process in some way is
inhibiting this is just not accurate.
That's exactly the
point of why we're engaging in this discussion.
From the
10
piece of 3500 material which has been declassified, presuming
11
for the moment that the U.S. Government officers, as we have
12
presumed throughout, that the U.S. Government officers
13
referred to in the 3500 exhibit -- sorry -- the October 2006
14
memorandum are Detective Addonizio and Detective Hanratty,
15
we've operated under that presumption for the exact purpose,
16
so that we can litigate this issue without the CIPA process
17
inhibiting it in any way.
18
It strikes me as just inaccurate to say that if we
19
knew the guy's name or what agent he worked with, that somehow
20
we would be on a different footing with respect to arguing
21
before your Honor as to whether any testimony from him would
22
be admissible or not admissible.
23
It's not admissible.
It's not admissible, because
24
it's four steps removed.
What Mr. Kamdang said was, he wants
25
to call a witness, direct evidence of government pressure.
ANTHONY M. MANCUSO,
CSR
2865
1
That's not this witness.
witness is talking to a case agent who is supposedly,
according -- if you drew the inferential chain, the case agent
would be talking to the handling agent, the handling agent
would be talking to the informant, and what actually matters
is what the informant would be saying to the defendants.
This witness has no idea.
We have all of those people.
This
There's no need for
this person four steps removed, despite the defense
contention, has no direct evidence of anything at all.
10
11
So,
we're clearly squarely in the Almonte area.

What I think is really going on here is that the
12
defense is trying to impugn the integrity of government
13
investigation in some way, and that's been rejected by the
14
Second Circuit in United States v. Purdy, 144 F.3d 241, where
15
the Second Circuit clearly held that you can't use a document
16
or extrinsic evidence as a general matter to somehow undermine
17
the integrity of the government's investigation, that that's
18
not a valid basis to enter testimony or a document.
19
And, Judge, coming back to the other issue that
20
troubles the government, is, there is an available defense for
21
defendants, where supposedly a government agent instilled the
22
intent into a defendant to commit a crime.
23
That's the defense.
24
has clearly held that the burden of proving inducement,
25
including the inducement to commit the offense and all aspects
It is their burden.
ANTHONY M. MANCUSO,
CSR
That's entrapment.
The Second Circuit
2866
1
of the offense, is on the defense.
by a preponderance of the evidence that they were induced,
that the defendant was induced.
The defense has to prove
I'm concerned that where we're headed here is some
sort of entrapment-like defense, where the defense argues
entrapment essentially, but then says, We don't want an
entrapment instruction, we don't want to bear the burden of
proving inducement, and we certainly don't want the evidence
of predisposition that the government would offer to counter
10
any argument of inducement.
11
of pseudo-entrapment defense, which avoids any burdens and
12
which confuses the jury.
13
And so, we're headed to some sort
So, I just want to put that out there.
There may be
14
ways that we can handle this through an appropriate
15
instruction from the Court that entrapment is not an issue at
16
this trial, or something along those lines.
17
to put that on the table, because it's a concern that I have.
18
But I just want
But, Judge, I think at the end of the day, we have
19
made available the people who have information, that actually
20
have direct information on this issue on what instructions the
21
informant got.
22
I actually think that asking Detective Addonizio about what
23
the handler did is hearsay and we may be objecting to some of
24
those questions on his cross-examination, we'll see, but he's
25
available, too, as well as Detective Hanratty.
There's the informant, the handler, and while
ANTHONY M. MANCUSO,
CSR
2867
To take it to another level, nothing to do with
1
2
CIPA, just under the Federal Rules of Evidence, it's
inadmissible.
THE COURT:
Certainly to the extent that there may
have been communications going from Mr. Addonizio and Hanratty
to Napoli, that would be appropriate to elicit, either on
cross or on direct, because that's his participation in the
investigation.
seems to me, would be appropriate.
And Napoli's responses to that certainly, it
But it does seem to me that really what is critical
10
11
here for the purposes or the ends -- for what the defense is
12
seeking to do here, what is really relevant, as the
13
government, I think correctly, says, is what the handler said
14
to the informant, because what the informant is going to do,
15
based presumably on instructions, he's going to act on the
16
instructions presumably that he is given, and there's no
17
reason why Napoli or even the case agents couldn't testify as
18
to what their goals were in the investigation, what they were
19
trying to achieve, and what ways they were trying to achieve
20
it.
21
But this memorandum certainly is way too far
22
removed, and it seems to me that we're getting embroiled in a
23
side issue, as the government says, I believe, correctly,
24
getting into extrinsic proof of a collateral matter.
25
So, the motion is denied.
ANTHONY M. MANCUSO,
CSR
I don't think that we
2868
1
need to go into a whole CIPA process as requested by the
defense, given the nature of the document.

I also think it would be entirely appropriate if
3
4
defense counsel wishes to cross-examine using the document.
As I said before, you can use almost anything for impeachment
purposes.
very quick look at some of the cases, there's nothing directly
on point, that's going to be on all fours here, that the
general principles as cited by the government appear to be
10
11
But to go behind the whole offering, just taking a
still good law in this circuit.

(Continued on next page.)
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
ANTHONY M. MANCUSO,
CSR
2869
MR. KAMDANG:
1
2
ruling.
Your Honor, I understand the Court's
I want to make my objection for the record.

The concern here is that we think that there is a
3
4
dispute as to the lead case agent's testimony from what we
believe happened in this case.
subpoenaed that witness that the government would seek to
preclude that witness' testimony.
we have not been able to receive the discovery that we need to
adequately respond.
I understand that had we
Because of the CIPA issues,
I think that from the evidence, from the
10
information that we have right now, I -- I can't dispute the
11
government's position because simply I don't know what that
12
witness would say.
I don't think anybody does.
Because of that, that is the issue that we needed
13
14
this discovery to make an adequate determination of whether or
15
not we would have wanted this witness and whether or not that
16
witness' testimony would have been collateral or not.

MR. MILLER:
17
So the government's position is clear,
18
none of -- we have disclosed what we believe is required for
19
disclosure under Brady, Giglio, Rule 16, without regard to
20
CIPA.
21
CIPA process with respect to this document.
22
this document and that is, we classified the document without
23
identifying the author of the document or the agency of the
24
document comes from, but we declassified the relevant portions
25
of the document.
That is, as Your Honor knows, we didn't engage in a
GR
We declassified
That is, it relates to issues that have been
OCR
CM
CRR
CSR
2870
1
discussed, we have provided that in discovery, in full
compliance with our discovery obligations.
information, from the government's point of view, is not
required to be disclosed by any law or case law, without
regard to CIPA.
THE COURT:
MR. NKRUMAH:
This additional
Mr. Nkrumah?
Your Honor, I just want to add, that
Mr. Kadir's team, we agree with the DeFreitas team, that we
believe that this document -- that we should be entitled to
10
the name of the person who authored the document.

We understand the Court's ruling and we too have
11
12
said that we are not -- we are not seeking an entrapment
13
defense.
14
have been precluded by the late -- by the document being
15
turned over so late.
16
THE COURT:
Partially because it was -- partially because it may
I am not buying that argument, I'm
17
sorry.
I mean, there is still -- there is still ample room
18
for inquiry with respect to the handler, with Napoli, with the
19
case agents, as to how much pressure was placed on the
20
informant to produce considerations given.

As I said, this informant has been on the stand now,
21
22
today will be the third day on direct, maybe two-and-a-half
23
days on direct. I don't know how long the cross is going to
24
take.
25
expect that we are probably going to finish off this week with
And then there is redirect and recross.
GR
OCR
CM
CRR
CSR
So I would
2871
1
this witness and possibly go into the next.

There is ample room for the defense in
2
3
cross-examination of the witnesses that are available to get
at the pressures that were made on this informant, the goals
of the investigation, the exuberance, if you will, of the
agents in conducting the investigation.
were there hands on doing what they were doing.

The late disclosure of this and, again classified
8
9
They are the ones who
material has been disclosed on a rolling basis in this case,
10
from the very beginning, and this memorandum was disclosed
11
June 30th, as soon as the government was able to get it
12
declassified.
I am not convinced that the fact that this one
13
14
document out of the hundreds of documents that we have here
15
from different agents really makes such a tremendous
16
difference in terms of the cross-examination given the scheme
17
of things.
18
I disagree.
MR. KAMDANG:
On a side note, to wit, the -- I don't
19
know if -- we are not seeking an entrapment defense here.
20
defense I think, I hope we made it clear, is that
21
Mr. DeFreitas's words do not establish intent here and he
22
never -- he never had the intent in this case, which I think
23
is a valid defense.
24
25
THE COURT:
Our
Again, the fact that neither defendant
is seeking the entrapment defense diminishes the impact of the
GR
OCR
CM
CRR
CSR
2872
1
document and therefore makes it less relevant.
Almonte talks about.
the creation of the document and it is a document that has not
been adopted or endorsed by either the case agents or the
handler, then the relevance, and that's what Almonte talks
about, makes the document basically irrelevant, because it is
a collateral issue.
When you start going so far removed in
The motion is denied.
It is denied jointly.
MR. NKRUMAH:
Thank you, ma'am.
11
MR. KAMDANG:
Thank you.
12
MR. MILLER:
13
THE COURT:
14
Ms. Whalen has arrived.
15
MR. KAMDANG:
16
THE COURT:
Shall we get the witness?

Yes.
Do we know if all the jurors are here?

We will check.
They probably are here
Would the defendants like to take a quick break

before?
Give a chance to Ms. Whalen also to get set up.
20
MR. KAMDANG:
21
THE COURT:
22
Mr. Therrien has arrived.
by now.
18
19
The
exceptions of counsel are noted for the record.
10
17
That's what
I'm sure she wants an update.

She has been here for a little while,
actually.
23
MR. KAMDANG:
She heard the important part.
24
(Recess taken.)
25
GR
OCR
CM
CRR
CSR
2873
1
(The following occurred in the absence of the jury.)
THE COURT:
Is everyone ready?
I want to send for the jury.
MR. KAMDANG:
MR. MILLER:
THE COURT:
Do you want to get Mr. Francis?
MR. JONES:
Yes, Your Honor.
(Witness present.)
Please be seated.
Yes, Your Honor.

Yes, Your Honor.
10
THE WITNESS:
11
(Jury present.)
12
THE COURT:
13
Everyone may be seated.
14
Good morning, ladies and gentlemen.
15
Welcome back.
16
Do all the parties agree that all of our jurors are
17
seated?
Good morning.
The jury is entering.
All are here and properly seated?
18
The government?
19
MR. JONES:
Yes, Your Honor.
20
THE COURT:
Defense?
21
MS. WHALEN:
22
MR. NKRUMAH:
23
THE COURT:
24
First of all, I hope no one had too much trouble
25
traveling today.
GR
Yes, Your Honor.

Yes, Your Honor.
Okay.
Just a quick housekeeping issue.
I know the heat created some havoc with
OCR
CM
CRR
CSR
2874
1
public transportation.
can't be helped.
So we do understand that.
That just
I know that there is one person who has a doctor's
3
4
appointment on July 13th.
I am going to ask to see if you
could try to change that appointment to Friday, if it is all
possible.
It is you, ma'am?
Okay.
All right.
We will try to accommodate that.
But I am going to ask the rest of you, if you would please,
10
whatever appointments you need to make -- I remember we talked
11
about your appointment -- if you need to make any
12
appointments, try to do them for Fridays or the weekend, just
13
so that we don't delay this process.

As we get closer to the date next week, I will alert
14
15
you and we will work out the timing at that point in time.
All right.
16
17
This is continued government's case and
continued direct examination of Mr. Steven Francis.
18
Good morning, sir.
19
THE WITNESS:
20
THE COURT:
21
Good morning.
I remind you, sir, that you are still
under oath.
22
THE WITNESS:
23
THE COURT:
You may inquire when you are ready,
MR. JONES:
Thank you, Your Honor.
24
25
Yes.
Mr. Jones.
GR
OCR
CM
CRR
CSR
Francis-direct-Jones
1
S T E V E N
F R A N C I S
2875
called as a witness, having been previously duly
sworn, was examined and testified as follows:
DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. JONES:
Good morning again, Mr. Francis.
Good morning.
Mr. Francis, yesterday when we left off you had just
finished telling the jury about some meetings that you had
(Continues)
10
with defendant Kadir and the defendant DeFreitas at
11
Mr. Kadir's house in Guyana.

Do you remember that?
12
13
Yes.
14
I want to back up just for a second and ask you, again
15
you testified earlier, this is sometime in February of 2007,
16
is that right?
17
Yes.
18
You told us you met Mr. Kadir the first time on the
19
street when you were walking with Abdul Nur, is that correct?
20
Yes.
21
You told us about this meeting later at Mr. Kadir's house
22
where you presented the plot to him and you talked about the
23
blueprints and Google, do you remember that?
24
Yes.
25
In-between those two meetings, Mr. Francis, did you have
GR
OCR
CM
CRR
CSR
2876
a chance to meet with defendant Kadir at another point?
Yes.
Where did you meet him on that second time?
Outside of his house.
What took -- again, this is in Linden, is that right?
That's correct.
Many of the events we have been discussing earlier took
place in what town?
In Georgetown.
10
Are those two cities close to each other, far away?
11
you give us an idea?
12
They are fairly far.
13
What brought you into Linden on that second trip?
14
We were asked by Sheik Talib Rutherford to go and visit
15
interior with him so we get a better idea where the mining
16
area was and as well as some of the products that Guyana
17
produces.
19
So when we went on the journey with him -THE COURT:
18
I'm sorry to interrupt.
When you say
"we," who is "we"?
20
THE WITNESS:
21
Sheik Mohammed went, also Sheik Dawood and his
22
23
Can
daughter.
Oh, okay.
Also, Rutherford and myself.

We went to the interior and as we were going to the
24
interior, he -- Sheik Mohammed asked Sheik Rutherford if it
25
was possible that we visit Kadir before we went to Georgetown.
GR
OCR
CM
CRR
CSR
1
Mr. Kadir on that trip?
2877
Did Mr. DeFreitas say why he wanted to meet with
Yes.
He mentioned that the mayor of Linden, Kadir was his
4
5
friend, and since he was in the area he needed to pay him a
visit.
Did you make that visit?
Yes.
What happened when you walked up to -- where did you meet
10
with Mr. Kadir on this visit?
11
We met outside of his home.
12
His home, meaning Kadir's home?
13
In Kadir's home and in Linden, yes.
14
What happened when you approached the defendant Kadir?
15
When we got there, we all greeted each other and as I was
16
holding Kadir's hand, I was placed on a lock which is actually
17
done by martial artists and he almost throw me and he put his
18
hand on my neck as a sign of his knowledge of martial arts.
19
20
that you -- that you trained in martial arts as well?
21
That's correct.
22
Is there anything -- then did you end up shaking hands
23
and actually having a meeting with Mr. Kadir?
24
25
Again, you testified I believe on Thursday, Mr. Francis,
Yes.
Actually, I said to him, wow, you know, you are
GR
OCR
CM
CRR
CSR
1
good.
arts.
2878
And then he said, yes, I have been doing some martial
Then I said yes, also myself.
We kind of was cool off about it.
Just martial arts
lingo, kind of display this kind of behavior.
your decision not to wear a wire on the third trip?
That's correct.
You told us about the meeting where you -- where
Was there anything about that experience that impacted
10
Mr. DeFreitas and you played the video for the defendant
11
Kadir.
Do you recall that testimony?
12
13
Yes.
14
Did Mr. Kadir or Mr. DeFreitas or anyone else at that
15
meeting, again in February of 2007, have anything to say about
16
how many walls the tanks have?
17
Yes.
18
Who said that?
19
Kadir.
20
What did he say about how many walls the tanks have?
21
When it was presented to him, Sheik Mohammed, the
22
incident that have taken place to our meetings with
23
Rutherford, it was mentioned to him, by him the -- that of the
24
explosives that were going to be used --
25
I'm sorry.
GR
When you say -- I want to make sure for the
OCR
CM
CRR
CSR
2879
record.
When you say "him," who do you mean?
explosives that were available and so do I -- and so do I say
that it's correct, that Sheik Rutherford was going to provide
some sort of dynamite which was made out of gel or something
like that.
Yes.
Sheik Mohammed started mentioning about the
And Kadir mentioned that he believed that that was
7
8
not going to be actually enough to ignite that based on the
fact that the -- those type of tanks are -- have double-sided
10
walls, which means that one of the walls -- if one of the
11
walls get -- get rupture, the other wall will stop any
12
ignition from happening on the gas.

So it have to be a simultaneous attack where
13
14
actually the first wall has to be broken in and in order
15
for -- for it to, and then the second wall, so oxygen will hit
16
the gas and in order for the gas to be ignited.
17
18
information about how this would scientifically happen?
19
Kadir.
20
Did he suggest what experience he had, if any, that would
21
inform his knowledge of that?
22
23
Who -- again, who was it that was giving all this
Yes.
He said that he had based on his knowledge of
24
engineering as well as the back sides.
25
able to understand also that -- of the complexity of the
GR
OCR
CM
CRR
He will actually be
CSR
2880
tanks.
worked as an engineer before?
Yes.
Did he say that?
He said that he was a civil engineer, yes.
After these meetings in Guyana, I believe you were
about -- you were starting to tell us when we broke yesterday
that you eventually came back to New York City, is that
Did he tell you whether he had actually been trained and
10
correct?
11
Yes.
12
Approximately when did you return to New York City from
13
Guyana?
14
At the end of February, of 2007.
15
Did anyone travel with you?
16
Yes.
17
Who traveled with you?
18
Sheik Mohammed.
19
Did you go through Customs?
20
Yes.
21
Did Russell DeFreitas, Mohammed, did he go through
22
Customs?
23
Yes.
24
Do you know if anything happened to defendant DeFreitas
25
while he was in Customs?
GR
OCR
CM
CRR
CSR
2881
Yes.
What was that?
He was heavily searched by the Port Authority.
Did you speak with the defendant DeFreitas after that
happened?
Yes.
What did he have to say about what happened?
He was very irritable about the matter.
they scrutinize him and they went through his papers and
He said that
10
everything and they were acting like they were searching for
11
something, which they -- they did.
12
there and they made copies of it and then they also told him
13
that they were going to put a chip in his passport when it
14
expires pretty soon.
15
16
anything important or related to the plot when he was stopped?
17
Yes.
18
What did he say he was carrying?
19
He was carrying some personal documents of Kadir and as
20
well as his son and daughter.
They found some paperworks
Did the defendant tell you whether or not he was carrying
21
THE COURT:
Whose son and daughter?
22
THE WITNESS:
Kadir's son and Kadir's daughter.
23
Why did Mr. DeFreitas, if you know, have documents
24
belonging to Mr. Kadir in his possession when he was stopped
25
at the airport?
GR
OCR
CM
CRR
CSR
2882
He was going to actually inquire about some masjid, he
was inquiring about a place of prayer that Kadir was trying to
be building and he needed the paperwork to actually be
of -- somewhat of a legal presentation for those investors to
actually look into.
Okay.
Just to break it down a little bit.

Mr. DeFreitas was carrying documents belonging to
7
8
Mr. Kadir because Mr. Kadir and Mr. DeFreitas were working on
some sort of mosque or masjid, is that correct?
10
That is correct.
11
Now, do you know if Mr. DeFreitas blamed anyone for being
12
stopped by the border, Customs and Border Protection officers
13
at JFK?
14
Yes.
15
Who did he blame for that?
16
He blamed Sheik Talib Rutherford as well as Sheik Dawood
17
Masood.
18
19
upset earlier, is that right?
20
That's correct.
21
Why did he blame them?
Sheik Rutherford being the one who got was -- was so
Did he say why he thought they might have something
22
23
to do with him being stopped?
24
25
Yes.
He felt that they were very -- they were upset of
GR
OCR
CM
CRR
CSR
2883
the fact that we took away the information from the computer
and so on that note he felt that we have erupted any type of
negotiations that they had behind us and they felt ill about
it so they -- since they were not -- no longer any part of
they wanted to kind of set us up to actually get locked up.
Did either of you -- did you get searched at the airport?
No, I didn't.
Had you been searched at any other airports in connection
with this case?
10
Yes.
11
Where had you been searched?
12
Prior to us getting searched -- prior to his getting
13
searched in the states, I got searched in Guyana, right prior
14
to that.
15
16
one of you get arrested?
17
No.
18
You were free to leave the airport?
19
Yes.
20
Do you know if defendant DeFreitas ever told defendant
21
Kadir what happened at the airport and with Mr. Kadir's
22
documents?
23
Yes.
24
How do you know that?
25
Right after Sheik Mohammed asked me to give a call to
After Mr. DeFreitas was searched in New York, did either
GR
OCR
CM
CRR
CSR
2884
Kadir, to inform him of the situation, asking him of any
progress about the JFK plot or the chicken farm.
farm?
Chicken farm, yes.
That's the new nickname for the plot, is that right?
That is correct.
I am showing you what's marked as Government's
Exhibit 214 for identification.
10
Just -- maybe -- the last word you said, the chicken
the book?
11
THE COURT:
12
monitors as well at this point?
13
MR. JONES:
14
If you could turn to 214 T in
Do you need the jurors to pull out the
It's probably a good idea to go ahead
and do that.
THE COURT:
15
You might as well do that as well.
Make
16
sure to turn on the monitors so that they warm up and pull out
17
your binders that are under your chairs.
18
MR. JONES:
19
May I proceed, Your Honor?
20
THE COURT:
Yes, you may.
21
Mr. Francis, do you recognize that disk?
22
Yes.
23
What is that?
24
It's an audio of conversation between Kadir, Sheik
25
Mohammed and myself.
GR
OCR
CM
CRR
CSR
2885
When is the audio from?
March 5, 2007.
Do you recognize that CD?
Yes.
How do you recognize it?
I heard it and I signed it.
Is this a fair and accurate representation of the
conversation you had with Kadir and DeFreitas on the date you
mentioned?
10
Yes.
MR. JONES:
Your Honor, I move Exhibit 214 into
13
THE COURT:
Any objection?
14
MS. WHALEN:
No objection.
15
MR. NKRUMAH:
16
THE COURT:
11
12
17
evidence.
No, Your Honor.

It is admitted as Government's
Exhibit 214.
18
(Marked.)
19
Mind you, ladies and gentlemen, as I have told you
20
previously, that what is actually in evidence is the audio
21
recording and the transcript is being provided simply as an
22
aid to help you follow along.
23
recording that controls because that is the actual evidence.
24
25
It is what you hear from the
I am not going to repeat this as we go along, but

just keep that in mind, that in the event that we do introduce
GR
OCR
CM
CRR
CSR
2886
any other audio recordings, that it is what you hear on the
recording that controls and not what's on the transcript,
which is simply an aid.
You may proceed, Mr. Jones.
MR. JONES:
Two things for purposes of the record, Your Honor.
Exhibit 214 represents ID-59, session two.

As was the case yesterday and on Thursday, the
8
9
admitted exhibits are contained on CDs.
They are being played
10
off the computer to save time without switching disks, without
11
objection from defense.
12
EXAMINATION CONTINUES
13
BY MR. JONES:
14
15
the top of page two of your transcript.
Mr. Francis, could you -- we are going to start off at
MR. JONES:
Your Honor, permission to play for the
18
THE COURT:
Yes, permission granted.
19
(Tape plays; tape stops.)
16
17
20
witness.
If I can just pause for a moment, Mr. Francis?
21
The -- question here -- how is this being recorded?
22
It sounds like Mr. DeFreitas is sort of in the
23
distance and so is Mr. Kadir.

How is this being recorded?
24
25
I have body wire and the phone was actually on a speaker
GR
OCR
CM
CRR
CSR
2887
phone at the time.
Your cellphone?
Yes, my cellphone.
You were wearing some sort of body wire?
That is correct.
You tell Mr. Kadir on this tape that Mohammed ran into
some problems at the airport.

Is that what you just testified about?
8
9
Yes.
10
When he says, Mohammed -- well, the defendant DeFreitas
11
says, they are going to put a microchip in my passport.

Do you see that?
12
13
Yes.
14
Are you aware that the new passports have microchips in
15
them?
16
No.
I never heard that.
17
MR. JONES:
18
19
We will pick up in the same space.
I will pause again.

When he -- meaning Mr. DeFreitas -- says he knows
20
21
somebody did something to him, what does that refer to?
22
23
Rutherford and Sheik Dawood.
24
Suggesting that they had set him up?
25
Yes.
He refer that to Sheik Talib and Sheik -- Sheik
GR
OCR
CM
CRR
CSR
1
he's not a twin.
2888
When he mentions that the person next to him -- it says

Who is "him?"
He's right now.
What -- who is that referring to?
3
4
Referring to me.
You are the brother referred to in that paragraph?
Yes.
7
8
come.
He says -- Mr. Kadir says a good idea where that being
Where what?
10
11
Yes.
He's talking about the -- the tip of -- he's
12
actually in agreement that he's having a good idea about where
13
he is actually coming from.
14
Meaning the tip from Rutherford or --
15
From Rutherford and Sheik Dawood, yes.
16
Before we continue on the transcript, did you have any
17
discussions with the defendant DeFreitas about why you would
18
inform Mr. Kadir about this incident with Customs, why tell
19
Mr. Kadir that?
20
21
anything that happened either to him or to me and of course
22
those papers had information about himself and about his,
23
about -- about Kadir's daughter and Kadir's son
24
which -- scholars in Iran.
25
them.
He wanted Kadir to be aware of everything that we do and
GR
OCR
He was actually trying to protect
CM
CRR
CSR
1
MR. JONES:
2889
Okay.
Mr. Francis, yesterday you testified that after the plot
was presented to Mr. Kadir, he needed to take -- he needed
some more time to do something, is that right?
Yes.
What did he need to do?
To contact his connections about the matter at hand,
which is the chicken farm or the JFK plot.
10
On the bottom of page five what we just heard Mr. Kadir
11
say, he says okay, okay.
12
those folks about those chickens early next week.
I should be hearing something from
What does that refer to?
13
14
It refers to the same.
15
The chicken farm was the nickname?
16
Yes.
17
Who had come up with that name?
18
Kadir did.
19
Who are the folks that he was going to contact next week?
20
His connections, whether in Venezuela or Iran.
21
At the top of page six he says, this week I should be
22
hearing something from them.

Is that correct?
23
24
25
It refers to the JFK plot.
Yes.
GR
OCR
CM
CRR
CSR
2890
All of this discussion here that we are listening to
about bitter cup, is bitter cup some sort of Guyanese
beverage?
Is that what it is?
4
5
Yes.
It is not really a beverage.
It's pieces of wood
that actually are very bitter and they use it -- they chew it
so it can actually help with different diseases, according to
the herbalists.
10
This area here has nothing to do with JFK plot or
11
anything like that?
12
That is correct.
13
Similarly, over the course of the tapes that you have
14
heard in this investigation and that were admitted into
15
evidence, is it fair to say there is a lot of discussion about
16
things other than just JFK?
17
That is correct.
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
GR
OCR
CM
CRR
CSR
2891
CONTINUED DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. JONES :
exchange in which Mr. Defreitas was on the phone and then you
get on the phone, start talking with Mr. Kadir, you remember
that?
Yes, that's correct.
Why were you discussing Google Earth with Mr. Kadir?
He instructed me in our meeting that I actually needed to
Just pausing the tape against, when I just had an
10
download Google Earth so I could get the images of the Chicken
11
Farm or JFK Airport.
12
13
photograph of Chicken Farm, meaning JFK; is that right?
14
That's correct.
15
Is that true?
16
image of the airport?
17
That's correct.
18
I'll show you what's been marked Government Exhibit 70
19
and 71 for identification.
20
Yes.
21
What are they?
22
They are the images that I downloaded at the time that I
23
was speaking with Kadir.
24
In 2007?
25
Yes.
You said in that tape that you said actually downloaded a
SS
Have you downloaded Google Earth satellite
OCR
Do you recognize those documents?
CM
CRR
CSR
1
you downloaded at Mr. Kadir's direction?
Are these fair and accurate duplicates of the images that
Yes.
MR. JONES:
4
5
Offer into evidence
Government Exhibit 70 and 71.
THE COURT:
MS. WHALEN:
MR. NKRUMAH:
THE COURT:
10
No objection, your Honor.

No objection.
They're admitted as
(So marked.)
Q
Mr. Francis, I'll show you this have -MR. JONES:
13
14
Any objection?
11
12
2892
Permission to show the photograph to
the jury, your Honor?
15
THE COURT:
Do you want it from your laptop?
16
MR. JONES:
Yes.
17
The jury can see on the screen Exhibit 70.
18
that you went on to Google, downloaded this; is that correct?
19
That's correct.
20
What are we looking at here?
21
purposes of the record what's on your screen?
22
This is the JFK Airport.
23
It says at the bottom a date.
24
Yes.
25
What is that?
SS
OCR
CM
You mentioned
Can you just describe for
You see the date?
CRR
CSR
2893
2007.
When you were discussing the Chicken and the Eggs, some
of the terminology you used?
That's correct.
I'll mark on the left-hand side of the screen here, you
see the blue circle I drew?
Yes, I do.
What's located in that area?
That is the first set of tanks that we saw on the video.
10
You had driven by those at some point?
11
That's correct.
12
Directing your attention to the bottom of your screen --
13
well, more towards the middle of the screen, but towards the
14
bottom and towards the right of your screen, what is that
15
second blue circle?
16
17
close to where you saw the little truck next to it.
18
19
those are bodies of water; is that correct?
20
That's correct.
21
The large circle in the middle, what is that?
22
That's where the tower and terminals are and most of the
23
planes.
24
25
you in future trips regarding the plot?
That is the second set of tanks, the ones that we were
Obviously, down at the bottom where those two marks are,
Did you take this drawing or this satellite image with
SS
OCR
CM
CRR
CSR
2894
That's correct.
Was it a small size or did you blow it up somehow?
I blew it up to a big size.
We'll go back on the tape, Mr. Francis, pick up where we
left off.
(Tape plays.)
6
7
Mr. Francis, the discussion here, Mr. Defreitas says
those are the tanks.
says, points out Lefferts Boulevard and the Conduit?
He says yes, those are the tanks.
He
10
That's correct.
11
What are you looking at as you're discussing?
12
At the beginning, the map was very small like this.
13
reason why I was asked to blow up, that way the streets and
14
everything would be actually seen well.
15
actually, I'm blowing up the map.
16
recognize and I am also recognizing more of what the area is
17
like.
18
19
map; is that correct?
20
That's correct.
21
By the way, when you told Mr. Kadir that you had
22
downloaded the Google Earth video, what did he say in response
23
to that?
24
He said "good, good, good."
25
I'll direct your attention back to the audio.
The
As he's talking,
He's able to actually
You're both trying to get your bearings on the smaller
SS
OCR
CM
CRR
CSR
If you
2895
could flip back to page nine, line 22, does that refresh your
recollection of what he said?
Yes.
What is that?
"Good, good, good, all right, we can work with that."
I'm showing you what's marked as Government Exhibit 215
for identification.
recognize that disk?
Yes.
10
What's on that disk?
11
It's an audio or video between Sheik Mohammed and I,
12
myself.
13
What date?
14
March 6th, 2007.
15
Have you listened to this?
16
Yes.
17
Is this a fair and accurate copy of the recording you
18
made on that date with Mr. Defreitas?
19
If you could turn to 215-T?
Do you
Yes.
MR. JONES:
I offer Government Exhibit 215 into
22
THE COURT:
Any objection?
23
MS. WHALEN:
24
MR. NKRUMAH:
25
THE COURT:
20
21
evidence.
SS
No, your Honor.

No, your Honor.
Admitted as Government Exhibit 215.
OCR
CM
CRR
CSR
2896
(So marked.)
MR. JONES:
Permission to play a portion of the
THE COURT:
Granted.
audio?
4
5
Before we get any further on this one, Mr. Francis, again
this is 215?
Yes.
This is a different camera angle than we saw before; is
that right?
10
Yes.
11
Is this still your truck?
12
Yes, this is my truck.
13
Another camera that was put inside your truck; is that
14
right?
15
Yes.
16
What are we looking at here?
17
of the screen?
18
19
person that is on the driver's side is myself.
20
21
page 12.
23
If you could turn to 215-T, starting with the first page,
By the way, this corresponds with ID
60, session two.

(Tape plays.)
24
25
The empty seat would be the passenger sides and the
MR. JONES:
22
Which seat is in the middle
Who is this in the passenger seat?
SS
OCR
CM
CRR
CSR
2897
Sheik Mohammed or Defreitas.
The document Mr. Defreitas is holding in his hand in the
video clip, do you know what that document is?
Yes.
What is it?
It's those copies you actually showed me.
Is it --
Details of JFK Airport, also the one displaying the
tower.
10
He's hitting it with his glove, indicating tower, that's
11
the discussion of the airport?
12
Yes.
(Tape plays.)
13
14
15
discussions going on about the conversation of a mosque?
16
Yes.
MR. JONES:
17
18
What we're hearing now is not transcribed, unrelated
We'll fast forward to eight minutes and
25 seconds.
(Tape plays.)
19
20
On the right track for what?
21
To develop and actually make the JFK plot happen.
22
Mr. Defreitas said on page three, line 26, says we go
23
back to Kadir.
24
To show the Google Earth pictures to him.
25
You testified a minute ago that Defendant Kadir, that you
SS
Go back to Kadir for what, Mr. Francis?
OCR
CM
CRR
CSR
2898
told Defendant Kadir about the stop at the airport and then we
heard the tape of that; is that right?
Yes.
Did you ever speak with Mr. Kadir again about what
effect, if any, that incident at the airport would have on the
timing of the plot?
Yes.
I'll show you what's been marked as Government
Do you recognize that?
10
Yes, I do.
11
What is that?
12
That's an audio or video between me and Sheik Kadir.
13
Is that a fair --
14
It's on March 7th, 2007.
15
Is it a fair and accurate copy of the recording you made
16
on that date?
17
what date?
That's correct.
18
MR. JONES:
Offer as 216 into evidence.
19
THE COURT:
Any objection?
20
MR. NKRUMAH:
21
MS. WHALEN:
22
THE COURT:
23
(So marked, 216.)
No.
No.
Admitted.
24
Please turn to 216 in your transcript, Mr. Francis.
25
We're going to start at the top of page two.
SS
OCR
CM
CRR
CSR
1
THE COURT:
What session?
MR. JONES:
Session 1282.
(Tape plays.)
2899
Mr. Kadir says during that call that with regards to the
Chicken and the Eggs, that refers to what?
To the JFK Airport and the plot.
He says with respect to that, the folks, they don't want
to deal with that hatchery.
it's too sensitive.
They say right now, right now
Why is it too sensitive at the moment you're
10
11
speaking with him on this phone call?
12
13
paperwork that was related to Sheik Kadir as well as his son
14
and daughter, and they were actually copied by the authorities
15
at the time.
16
17
sensitive right now?
18
19
Iran.
20
21
where to look.
22
23
Mohammed.
24
already had some certain interests but actually they were
25
looking forward to Mohammed's information.
Because Sheik Mohammed was just being caught with
It says --
who is the reference to they think it's too
His connections abroad, which is Venezuela as well as in
It says, but if anything comes up, you know, they know

Where did they know where they would look?
Again, he mentioned before all the importance of

Of course, he had mentioned there were people
SS
OCR
CM
CRR
It was more
CSR
2900
detailed and actually had more experience about the JFK
Airport.
Was this the last time you spoke with Defendant Kadir?
No.
Did you have a conversation around this time when he told
you "Don't ever talk to me again, I don't want to talk to
you"?
No.
In fact, did he invite you back down to Guyana?
10
That's correct.
11
12
13
14
as well as Sheik Kadir.
15
About what date was that?
16
That is April 11th, 2007.
What is that?
This is an audio or a video between me and Sheik Mohammed
17
MS. MESSINA:
Objection.
18
THE COURT:
19
MS. MESSINA:
20
You want to have a side bar?

Yes, please.
21
22
23
24
25
SS
OCR
CM
CRR
CSR
1
(Side bar.)
MS. MESSINA:
MR. JONES:
MS. MESSINA:
MR. JONES:
MS. MESSINA:
What is he looking at?
The transcripts.
Looking at the actual transcripts?
Yes.
Then I apologize.
I told him to turn
to the next tab.

THE COURT:
He was asked to turn to transcript 217.
MS. MESSINA:
10
11
I notice -- can the records reflect
the witness is referring to a book?
2901
He's identifying it from the
transcript?
12
MR. JONES:
Identifying the recording.
13
THE COURT:
The same procedure we've been using all
14
along.
15
MS. MESSINA:
16
MS. WHALEN:
I want to be sure.
Thank you.
When he identifies the recording and
17
it says who the people are, he's identifying the people, not
18
from the recording?
19
20
MR. JONES:
Correct, it's not written on there.
That's correct, that's right.
21
MS. WHALEN:
Just to clarify.
22
23
24
25
SS
OCR
CM
CRR
CSR
2902
(Open court.)
THE COURT:
Objection is overruled.
MR. JONES:
This was 217, was it received into
continue.
4
5
evidence?
THE COURT:
MS. WHALEN:
MR. NKRUMAH:
THE COURT:
No, it was not.
Any objection?
No objection.
No, your Honor.
Admitted as Government Exhibit 217.
10
(So marked.)
11
MR. JONES:
12
You may
Permission to play a portion which
corresponds to 2091 according to the records.
13
THE COURT:
Permission granted.
14
(Tape plays.)
15
This discussion that happens later, that's unrelated to
16
what you have just finished talking about; is that correct?
17
That's correct.
18
In the portions where we just finished listening,
19
Mr. Kadir asks when are you coming down; is that right?
20
Yes.
21
What did you need to go down to Guyana for?
22
Needed to go down to show him the Google Earth images of
23
the JFK plot.
24
25
logistics?
Did you need to have further discussions of the
SS
OCR
CM
CRR
CSR
2903
That's correct.
It says, Mr. Defreitas says at the top of page three, the
problem is now that we've got a third ticket and asked
Mr. Kadir if he's interested in going to Trinidad.
Trinidad for what purpose at this point?
of Kadir, places the plot on hold.
out to Abu Bakr.
more reliable character than Abdul Nur, he had shown Abdul
Going to
Sheik Mohammed at this point sees the other connections

He felt he needed to reach
Because of the character of Kadir being a
10
Kadir should travel with us to present this matter to Abu Bakr
11
in Trinidad instead of Abdul Nur.
12
13
better person than Mr. Nur to make it succeed in Trinidad?
14
Sheik Mohammed's opinion.
15
Who was the meeting going to be with in Trinidad?
16
Abu Bakr.
17
Did you ever talk to Defendant Kadir about his thoughts
18
on this topic; that is, Mr. Kadir's thoughts on who should
19
approach Abu Bakr?
20
Yes.
21
Whether or not sources in Trinidad might be able to
22
assist in this plot?
23
That is correct.
24
Did you ever talk to Abdel Nur about this?
25
Yes.
Who told you, whose opinion was it that Kadir would be a
SS
OCR
CM
CRR
CSR
2904
Exhibit 218 and 219.
Just did.
218, you recognize that CD?
Yes.
What is contained on the CD?
Audio conversations between me and Abdul Nur.
What date?
April 13th, 2007.
10
What about 19?
11
That is an audio or video between Sheik Mohammed, Kadir
12
and myself.
13
On what date?
14
On April 14th, 2007.
15
Have you reviewed both these recordings prior to today?
16
Yes, I did.
17
Are these fair and accurate representations of the
18
recordings you made during the investigation?
19
Turn to 218-T.
Yes, they are.

MR. JONES:
I'll move Exhibits 218 and 219 into
22
THE COURT:
Any objection?
23
MS. WHALEN:
24
MR. NKRUMAH:
25
THE COURT:
20
21
evidence.
SS
No.
No.
They are admitted as Government
OCR
CM
CRR
CSR
1
Exhibits 218 and 219.
(So marked.)
MR. JONES:
Your Honor, 218 corresponds to 2134 and
number 219 corresponds to ID 71, session 11.

Permission to play these recordings to the jury,
5
6
2905
your Honor.
THE COURT:
7
8
of the transcript.
Granted.
We'll start with 218, Mr. Francis, start at the beginning
Do you know, before we begin, do you know where, in
10
11
what country you were when this recording was made?
12
Yes.
13
Where?
14
In the United States.
15
Do you know where Abdul Nur was?
16
He was in Guyana.
(Tape plays.)
17
18
Mr. Francis, during this call with Abdel Nur, who called
19
who here?
20
Abdel Nur called me.
21
Were there times in this investigation when people
22
involved in the plot would reach out, call you other than just
23
this time?
24
25
You said, you asked him about the shining at the top of
Did you call him or did he call you?
SS
OCR
CM
CRR
CSR
2906
page two.
He says at the bottom, when you present the shining
to Abu Bakr, do you think he would be interested.
yes, ma'am.
Arabic term for yes in Arabic.
Did you ever have a conversation with Defendant Kadir
about who he thought the best person to suggest the plot to
Abu Bakr would be?
That's correct.
Who did Mr. Kadir tell you the best person to tell
He says
What does that mean in English?
10
Abu Bakr about a plan to attack the airport?
11
Abdel Nur.
12
Why?
13
Because they go way back and --
14
Who goes way back?
15
Abu Bakr and Abdel Nur go way back.
16
other.
17
it myself where --
18
Myself, whose words are you using?
19
He warned me not to bring it up myself because I was new,
20
a new face, and he advised me not to do so.
21
Who advised you not to bring it up yourself to Abu Bakr?
22
Sheik Kadir.
So, that would allow them to speak about it, not bring
23
MR. JONES:
24
THE COURT:
25
They understand each
What time do you want to take a break?

We should take our break now.
We're
going to take a brief break, about ten minutes, or so, ladies
SS
OCR
CM
CRR
CSR
2907
and gentlemen.
during the break.
break.
anyone else.
draw any conclusions about the cases and you may not do any
kinds of research or read or look at anything that might be
connected to this case.
You'll be able to do that during the lunch
Do not speak about this case among yourselves or with

Remember to keep an open mind not to form or
About ten minutes, or so, a quarter of 12:00, more
8
9
Remember not to use any of your cell phones
or less.
10
(Jury leaves courtroom.)
11
THE COURT:
You may all be seated.
12
reflect the jury is not present at the moment.
13
take a ten-minute break, sir.
14
THE WITNESS:
15
THE COURT:
16
You may also
Thank you.
Just one thing.
I understand you've
been using the internet in the courtroom, Ms. Messina.
17
MS. MESSINA:
18
THE COURT:
Yes.
You can't do that in my courtroom.
19
can't do that.
20
do it outside the courtroom.
You
Whatever research you need to do you need to
21
MS. MESSINA:
22
THE COURT:
23
Let the record
That's fine.
That's a security issue.
You should
have asked permission before doing that.
24
MS. MESSINA:
25
THE COURT:
SS
I apologize, Judge.
Disconnect now, please.
OCR
CM
CRR
CSR
Otherwise I'll
1
take the laptops away.
MS. MESSINA:
(Recess.)
2908
You wouldn't be able to use them then.

I understand.
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
SS
OCR
CM
CRR
CSR
Francis - direct - Jones

1
THE COURT:
You can bring the witness in, and let's
get the jury.
(Jury present.)
THE COURT:
Welcome back, ladies and gentlemen.
Do the parties agree that all of our jurors are
Everyone, please be seated.
present and properly seated?
MR. JONES:
Yes, your Honor.
10
THE COURT:
Defense?
11
MS. WHALEN:
12
MS. MESSINA:
13
THE COURT:
14
Yes, your Honor.

Yes, your Honor.
This is continued government's case,
direct examination of Mr. Francis.

You are reminded, sir, that you are still under
15
16
oath.
17
THE WITNESS:
18
THE COURT:
You may inquire, Mr. Jones.
19
MR. JONES:
Yes.
20
BY MR. JONES:
21
22
but I wanted to back up just for a second?
23
2909
Mr. Francis, we were about to talk about another subject,
There was some discussion in the tapes that we have
24
listened to this morning about you telling Mr. Defreitas you
25
ran out of ink; is that right.
ANTHONY M. MANCUSO,
CSR
2910
That is correct.
The printer ink, is that what that means?
Yes.
The video that we saw earlier with Mr. Defreitas
gesturing at a piece of paper and talking about the tower, do
you remember discussing that earlier this morning?
Yes.
The document that he has in his hand, is that the
satellite view that the jury saw this morning, or a different
10
kind of view?
11
12
view of the JFK, and I was requested by Defreitas that he did
13
not like to have that.
14
satellite view, which is a more realistic type of view, as
15
well as he was able to display to Kadir as well as other
16
investors the actual look of the airport and what he actually
17
meant by every landmark that was going to be attacked.
18
19
photo, you needed more ink; is that right?
20
That is correct.
21
Did you eventually get that printed out and blow it up?
22
Yes.
23
If you could turn to 219-T in your transcript.
24
just admitted into evidence?
25
Yes.
Actually, it was slightly different.
It was a map
He wanted to actually have the
In order to get the actual printout of the satellite
219 was
We're going to pick up at the top of page two, which
ANTHONY M. MANCUSO,
CSR

1
is twelve minutes and forty seconds into the recording.

MR. JONES:
2
3
2911
Your Honor, may I have permission to
publish this to the jury?
THE COURT:
Yes.
(Tape plays.)
(Tape stops.)
The discussion that you are having with Mr. Defreitas
here about going to Trinidad, that's for the purpose you
discussed earlier about going to Abu Bakr?
10
That's right.
11
Was there any discussion amongst the group in New York --
12
meaning you and Defreitas and Kadir -- about the time, how
13
much time you would spend in Trinidad or Guyana?
14
Yes.
15
When you mentioned the lady in this, you just talked
16
about a lady in this phone call, who is the lady you're
17
talking about?
18
19
to book the flights, it was needed the right information, as
20
well as the dates of travel.
21
22
was going to travel to what country on what date?
23
That is correct.
24
Is it fair to say that the government was going to be
25
paying for -- these were government tickets; is that correct?
It was in reference to booking the flights, and in order
In order to make the reservations, you needed to know who
ANTHONY M. MANCUSO,
CSR
2912
That is correct.
Did you tell Mr. Defreitas, Hey, the FBI is going to get
us some tickets?
Of course not.
Did the FBI indicate to you whether or not they needed to
know exactly what date this travel would happen?
Yes.
And did they explain to you why they needed to know that?
Well, yes.
10
That was security reasons?
11
That is correct.
12
The trip to Trinidad -- well, the phone is ringing in the
13
tape we just played; right?
14
Yes.
15
Who are you calling?
16
At that moment, we are in the F150 truck, and I am in the
17
driver's side and Sheik Mohammed is in the passenger's side,
18
and we proceeded to call Abdul Kadir to inform him of the
19
traveling to Trinidad, and to ask him his name or the name
20
that appears in his paperwork to book the flight.
21
MR. JONES:
22
(Tape plays.)
23
(Tape stops.)
24
25
is that right?
Pick up at line 13.
Then there's other conversations about unrelated topics;
ANTHONY M. MANCUSO,
CSR
2913
That is correct.
When you mentioned -- during that recording, you tell
Mr. Kadir that you want to talk to him about the chicken farm
before this trip to Trinidad; is that right?
Yes.
And when you say, We don't see his character and
reputation, who are you talking about in that paragraph, in
line twenty-one?
Yes.
Sheik Mohammed had mentioned in the past that he
10
didn't feel comfortable walking in to Abu Bakr just with Abdel
11
Nur.
12
Why?
13
He felt Abdel Nur's character and reputation in Guyana as
14
being not so good, and he was very concerned about his
15
security, being able to travel free without being actually
16
stopped and questioned about anything, maybe some dealings
17
with Abdel Nur that he may be pinched with that he may not be
18
aware of.
19
Wait.
20
Yes.
21
You mentioned Abdel Nur, that Mr. Defreitas was not -- he
22
was starting to worry about Abdel Nur's character and
23
reputation; is that right?
24
That is correct.
25
What about Abdel Nur was causing concern to Mr. Defreitas
Let me stop you there.
ANTHONY M. MANCUSO,
CSR
2914
that he said?
that owns a place called Swiss House, which actually, he was
being an enforcer for him, and one of the things he will do is
actually either collect money from drug dealers, or even
actually get involved in demising people, as well.
"Demising people," is that what you said?
Yes, killing people.
You are saying that Mr. Defreitas told you that he's
Abdel Nur told me that he was affiliated with a gentleman
10
starting to worry about Abdel Nur, because he's a drug dealer
11
and possibly a violent person?
12
That is correct.
13
So, you then asked Mr. Kadir, during the tape we just
14
played, that, We're thinking that if we get down there, you
15
are able to actually open up doors for us to discuss the
16
matter with the gentleman down there that may be interested?
17
Let's break that down just a little bit.
18
thought Kadir -- you are suggesting to Kadir that he might be
19
able to open doors with who?
20
Abu Bakr.
21
When you ask him, Maybe you can open some doors with Abu
22
Bakr, what does Mr. Kadir say?
23
He said, Okay.
24
At line 31, he says, Yeah, yeah, sure?
25
That is correct.
You
Who is the gentleman.
He's in agreement with it.
ANTHONY M. MANCUSO,
CSR

1
correct?
Yes.
And "there" is Trinidad?
Yes.
If we could turn in your transcript to page thirteen.
We're going to start with in the middle, where it says
"Twenty-nine minutes."
2915
We can do that when we come down and we go there; is that
"There" means Trinidad, of course.
(Tape plays.)
10
(Tape stops.)
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
ANTHONY M. MANCUSO,
CSR

1
BY
MR. JONES:
We will stop it there, Mr. Francis.
If you flip back to page 13 that we just listened
4
5
to, towards the bottom, you say to Mr. DeFreitas:

So you see how this union now in Trinidad with Abu
6
7
Bakr and Sheikh Abdul Kadir.
8
9
And DeFreitas says:
Everything is going to go well
He follows up with:
Because he's got voice and he's
this way.
10
11
2916
got authority.
Who has voice and authority?
12
13
He meant Abdul Kadir.
Meaning Mr. -- Sheik Mohammed.
14
When it says he and the man go back a long way, which man
15
go back a long way?
16
In this instance, Abdul Kadir and Abu Bakr go a long way.
17
Is this something Mr. Kadir, the defendant, had told you
18
about his relationship in the past with Abu Bakr?
19
20
mentioned to it me.
21
That they go back a long way?
22
Yes.
23
There is the portion of the transcript when the
24
recording, page -- next page, page 14, around line six, and
25
this is when Mr. DeFreitas testifies, including what happened
He had mentioned that to me as well, yes.
GR
OCR
CM
CRR
CSR
Kadir has
2917
right above that as well but he's testifying about he wishes
he could -THE COURT:
He's not testifying.
MR. JONES:
I'm sorry, Your Honor.
Withdrawn.
3
4
He is just
talking.
The top of page 14, when Mr. DeFreitas on the tape says,
he -- Abu Bakr called Rutherford and Dawood and he said, this
is Abu Bakr.
Then he explains wooo, wooo.
What's all the excitement about?
10
11
Because of -- the prior dealings with -- with Talib
12
Rutherford as well as Sheik Dawood and the matter at hand when
13
he became concerned of the stopping at the airport.
14
that they being very harsh and they have decided to do all
15
this scrutiny to us, that he was in need, Sheik Mohammed was
16
in need to let Abu Bakr know so he can straighten him out and
17
make them understand that we were the right hands now.
18
19
frustrations amongst the group.
20
That is correct.
21
And that the pace was not proceeding quickly enough for
22
Mr. DeFreitas, is that right?
23
Yes.
24
Had things changed at this point reflected in the audio
25
we just heard?
He felt
You testified either yesterday or Thursday, about
GR
OCR
CM
CRR
CSR

1
2918
Yes.
THE COURT:
In what way had they changed?
THE WITNESS:
Well, Sheik Mohammed had expressed
that things were ducked in and actually things were moving
faster and the right position.
words you said.
Say that again.
Slow down.
I didn't understand the
Yes.
At this point Sheik Mohammed, he felt that
9
10
everything was ducked in, meaning that -- that the flight to
11
Trinidad was actually being produced, that actually Abdel Nur
12
was willing to go and speak to Abu Bakr, so is -- Abdul Kadir
13
is willing to go to speak to Abu Bakr about the JFK plot.

So he felt that everything was moving and we were
14
15
not stagnated ed anymore, meaning Sheik Mohammed.
16
17
Exhibits 220, 221 and 222.
I am going to show you what's been marked as Government
Do you recognize those disks?
18
19
Yes, I do.
20
What are they?

Start with 220.
21
22
what's that, 220?
Yes.
It is audio or video between me and Abdul Kadir.
23
24
What's the date?
25
The date is April 27, 2007.
GR
OCR
CM
CRR
CSR
2919
What is 221?
This is audio or video between me and Abdel Nur on May 2,
2007.
And 222?
And this one is audio or video between Sheik Mohammed,
Abdul Kadir and myself.
transcripts of these in front of you, is that right?
Yes.
10
220, 221 and 222, are they fair and accurate
11
representations of recordings you made in this case?
12
It is on May 7, 2007.
Again, just for purposes of the record, you have the
Yes.
MR. JONES:
Your Honor, I move 220, 221 and 222 into
15
THE COURT:
Any objection?
16
MS. WHALEN:
17
MR. NKRUMAH:
18
THE COURT:
19
(Marked.)
13
14
evidence.
No, Your Honor.

No, Your Honor.
They are admitted.
20
Before we play those tapes, Mr. Francis, the -- we just
21
finished listening to a portion where DeFreitas was talking
22
about a person named Harry, is that right?
23
Yes.
24
Who is Harry?
25
It's DeFreitas or Sheik Mohammed's friend from Guyana.
GR
OCR
CM
CRR
CSR
2920
Did -- all this talk about going to Trinidad in order to
get financial support for the plot, did that trip ever happen?
Yes.
The recording we just listened to, you told us that it
was in April of 2007.
Yes.
Correct?
Yes.
Did you have any -- when did you -- when did you leave
10
the United States again in connection with this plot?
11
12
may 2007.
13
In-between your leaving the country --
14
Yes.
15
-- and the call we just listened to, were there other
16
conversations that you were having during those weeks about
17
the plot?
18
Yes.
19
Were several of those -- did the topic of Trinidad come
20
up again?
21
Yes.
22
If you could turn to exhibit -- 220 T?
23
24
25
Very -- very close after this conversations, say around
MR. JONES:
Your Honor, for the record, 220
corresponds with 2416.

221 corresponds with ID-7, session one.
GR
OCR
CM
CRR
CSR
2921
And 222 corresponds with ID-78, session one.
Permission to play portion of these recordings?
THE COURT:
Yes.
MR. JONES:
Thank you.
If you can turn to 220 T.
Granted.
We will be picking up at
the beginning, top of page two.

(Tape plays; tape stops. )
7
8
When you spoke here, when you called down to Mr. Kadir
and informed him of the possible date for the trip, that is a
10
trip from where to where?
11
12
traveling from here to Guyana and from Guyana to Trinidad.
On our end, meaning Sheik Mohammed and I, we were
And from -- in perspective of Sheik Kadir, he was
13
14
traveling from Guyana to Trinidad, returning to Guyana.
15
16
the 14th?
17
He was in agreement with it.
18
Now, you mentioned to us before that Mr. Kadir --
What did he say when you suggested the possible date of
19
THE COURT:
The date I think was the 20th?
20
THE WITNESS:
Yes.
Actually, the -- it's May 20,
21
2007, and Sheik Kadir was in agreement with it.
22
23
14th, is that right?
24
That is correct.
25
If you flip to 221 T?
He said in the middle I had something else to do on the
GR
OCR
CM
CRR
CSR

MR. JONES:
1
2
2922
We will start at the top of that page.
Page number two, it's the top of the page.

3
4
correct?
That is correct.
Who is it you are talking to?
Abdel Nur.
You asked him, do you think that Sheik Abu Bakr will be
10
Okay.
Mr. Francis, the audio on that one is pretty bad,
interested in helping us.

What is Mr. Nur's response?
11
12
He said yes.
13
You asked him, this thing involved the US, you know,
14
John, not Trinidad.
Do you think he'll still be interested.
What was his response?
15
16
He said yes.
17
When he says, well, John is a powerful area, what does
18
that refer to, John is a powerful area?
19
20
groups.
21
John being JFK?
22
JFK Airport, yes.
23
If you turn to Exhibit 222 transcript.
24
starting at the beginning, at the top of page two.
25
Meaning it was -- a place of interest for terrorist
Again, we are
(Tape plays, tape stops.)
GR
OCR
CM
CRR
CSR

1
All right.
In this you can hear some rustling.
What is that?
2
3
Body wire.
This is not a telephone call, correct?
That is correct.
6
7
flyer for the masjid.
Mr. Francis, this -- what he's discussing here is the
Is that true?
Were you preparing some sort of flyer
10
for a masjid and Mr. Kadir?
11
Yes.
12
That's unrelated to the plot, correct?
13
That is correct.
14
15
2923
Mr. Francis, just pausing here for a second.

This discussion you are having with Mr. Kadir about
16
17
the mosque and the flyers, without getting into the details of
18
the conversation, is it fair to say that topic came up again
19
later in another tape which we will hear?
20
Yes.
21
Did that mosque and the financing of it end up being a
22
topic of discussion related to the plot to attack JFK?
23
24
25
That is correct.
So on the prior page, Mr. Francis, page four, when you
GR
OCR
CM
CRR
CSR
2924
ask if -- you say that Sheik Mohammed asked if your son could
give me some housing while I'm there.

Whose son?
3
4
Sheik Abdul Kadir's son.
Did you eventually travel to Trinidad?
Yes.
Who did you stay with?
The.
I'm sorry.
Withdrawn.
Did you eventually travel to Guyana?
10
11
Yes.
12
Did you -- who did you stay with?
13
With Saleem, which is Kadir's son.
14
At the bottom you -- you tell Mr. Kadir, I downloaded the
15
Google Earth and we got the prints of the chicken farm from
16
the air.
Is that the image that you showed the jury earlier?
17
18
19
That is correct.
20
21
22
23
24
25
GR
OCR
CM
CRR
CSR
2925
BY MR. JONES:
or would be satisfied with that.
He said that was good, that was enough.
This discussion, you're about to have a discussion about
oils and products, what not.
to bring down with you from Guyana?
From the states.
10
From the United States?
11
Yes.
You asked if there's anything else that Mr. Kadir needs
MR. JONES:
12
13
What is his response?
Is that something you were going
We're going to pick up, your Honor, the
bottom of page 6's.
14
(Tape plays.)
15
MR. JONES:
I skipped over a portion two seconds
16
from earlier on.
Let's flip back to page five.
17
87 minutes and 35 seconds.
We'll start
(Tape plays.)
18
19
What did you need help at the airport for?
20
We were carrying the video as well as the images of the
21
Google Earth of the JFK Airport.
22
Why did you tell that to Mr. Kadir?
23
It was Sheik Mohammed who mentioned to Kadir at this
24
point.
25
What's the purpose of getting Mr. Kadir involved in the
SS
OCR
CM
CRR
CSR
2926
airport?
stopped and found with this sensitive information and facing
prison behind it.
airport?
Yes, he did.
At page ten of the transcript, there's a discussion
between you and Russell Defreitas about terminology, words.
Because Sheik Mohammed was concerned about us being
Did that ultimately happen?
Did he pick you up at the
Kadir did pick us up at the airport.
10
You're asking him are we going so speak about John F. Kennedy,
11
are we going to mention the Chicken Farm, what is that?
12
13
Rutherford mentioned it was the shining.
14
Abdul Nur was not aware yet of the name Chicken Farm.
15
still under the instructions of Sheik Mohammed.
16
to call to allow him to call it the shining and because
17
Abdul Nur would be present, also Kadir, I ask him what is it
18
you're going to call it?
19
Sheik Mohammed, what are you going to use, the shining, the
20
Chicken Farm, JFK.
21
With who?
22
With Abu Bakr.
23
You wanted to know what to talk about, what name to call
24
it when Defreitas spoke with Abu Bakr; is that right?
25
Because of the many changes of the name.
First of all,
At this point
OCR
He asked us
What is it, Defreitas,
That's correct.
SS
He was
CM
CRR
CSR
2927
The trip to Guyana that you said you took from the United
States, when approximately did that happen?
I'm sorry, repeat the question, please?
When did you go back to Guyana?
On May 10th, 2007.
Did you go alone or with somebody else?
Sheik Mohammed and myself.
Who picked you up at the airport?
Sheik Kadir picked up.
10
Who did you stay with?
11
With his son, as he said.
12
While you were in Guyana, did you have any discussions
13
with Abdul Kadir about the plan to attack the airport?
14
That's correct.
15
What were some of those conversations?

THE COURT:
16
17
Can I interrupt you one second?
Did
Mr. Defreitas stay with you as well in Mr. Kadir's son's home?
THE WITNESS:
18
Not all times, but at some point he
19
did stay for a day or so.
20
Again, Mr. Kadir lived in which town?
21
In Linden.
22
Did you show during these meetings with Mr. Kadir, did
23
you show him anything regarding this plot?
24
Yes.
25
What did you show him?
SS
OCR
CM
CRR
CSR
2928
The Google Earth images.
Was Russell Defreitas there for this meeting?
Yes.
How did Abdul Kadir react when you showed him the
satellite photo from Google Earth?
talking about and he was able to identify the landmarks that
Sheik Mohammed had mentioned that should be attacked.
He understood the instructions that Sheik Mohammed was
Did Mohammed point out what he had been talking about,
10
point out the terminal and the fuel tanks?
11
12
emphasized a lot of the tower and he mentioned also the
13
terminals, cargo area, also he showed the route, the routes of
14
the airport.
15
Was there any more discussion about the trip to Trinidad?
16
Yes.
17
What was the discussion about that?
18
After it was presented to him, he had mentioned I
19
shouldn't do any talking and that the talking should come --
20
first he mentioned Sheik Mohammed should do the talking.
21
we found it was best if Abdul Nur actually present the matter
22
to Abu Bakr and then actually Sheik Mohammed would explain
23
further into the plot.
24
Who thought it was a better idea?
25
Abdul Kadir.
That's correct, he showed him the tanks, the tower,
SS
OCR
CM
CRR
CSR
Then
2929
Did you have any meetings with Abdul Nur while you were
in Guyana?
Yes.
Where?
We met in Georgetown as well as in Linden.
What did you discusses with Abdel Nur?
It was told to him at that time he found out Kadir was
going to be traveling to Trinidad and Sheik Mohammed asked
Abdul Nur to first go into Abu Bakr, set the meeting for Abdul
10
Kadir, Sheik Mohammed and I to be presenting the plot, the
11
Chicken Farm to him.
12
13
in traveling to Trinidad still?
14
Yes.
15
He was still interested?
16
Yes.
Did Abdul Nur tell you whether or not he was interested
17
MR. JONES:
I could go to a new tape or --
18
THE COURT:
Let me find out the status of the
19
jurors' lunch.
Why don't we proceed with the next tape?
20
MR. JONES:
Yes, your Honor.
21
THE COURT:
It should be here shortly.
Mr. Francis, I'm showing you Government Exhibit 223-A for
22
23
identification.
24
recognize that?
25
Turn to 223-T, if you would.
Do you
Yes.
SS
OCR
CM
CRR
CSR
2930
What is that?
What is contained on that disk?
This is an audio recording from a body wire.
Who are the participants in the conversation?
Abdul Kadir, Abu Hussein and myself.
Was Russell Defreitas there?
No.
What was the date of that?
That is May 19th, 2007.
Is that a fair and accurate representation of the
10
conversation you had on that date?
11
Yes.
12
MR. JONES:
I'll move 223 into evidence.
13
THE COURT:
Any objection?
14
MS. WHALEN:
No objection.
15
MR. NKRUMAH:
16
MR. JONES:
223-A, sorry.
17
THE COURT:
That's admitted, 223-A.
18
(So marked.)
19
MR. JONES:
20
No objection.
Corresponds to a portion of ID 79,
session 13.
21
Permission to begin the audio?
22
THE COURT:
Yes.
23
MR. JONES:
So you know, this is a rather lengthy
24
25
recording.
Whenever you want me to stop, I will.

THE COURT:
SS
We're still waiting.
OCR
CM
CRR
It should be
CSR
1
shortly.
2931
You can proceed.

(Tape plays.)
2
3
Obviously you can hear some sounds in the background.
Where are you, what's that sound?
lot of farm life.
the birds and wild animals.
This is a body wire you're wearing?
That is correct.
10
Where in Linden are you when this happens?
11
The town of McKenzie, it's possible.
12
recalling.
13
Whose house?
14
Salim.
15
Who is Salim?
16
Abdul Kadir's son.
Linden is pretty much close to the interior.
There's a
You listen to some of the crickets, some of
I'm not much
It's in Linden, close to the interior.
(Tape plays.)
17
18
Mr. Francis, earlier in the call, in the meeting with
19
Kadir, he says it's not --
20
to be able to make this trip to Trinidad; is that correct?
21
Yes.
22
It says, you ask him who is meeting us?
23
Raheem.
24
25
Abdul Kadir mentioned the same person that I have met will be
something came up, was not going
He says Abdul
Who is Abdul Raheem?
Abdul Raheem is one of his students.
SS
OCR
CM
CRR
I met him prior.
CSR
2932
meeting us in Trinidad to accommodate us there and to also, he
will inform about meeting Abu Bakr as well.
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
SS
OCR
CM
CRR
CSR
2933
BY MR. JONES:
Trinidad and arranged for them to meet you at the airport,"
who did he arrange to meet you at the airport?
Abdul Raheem.
What airport was that?
The Trinidadian airport.
Mr. Kadir says that -- he tells you that Abu Bakr is hot.
So, when Mr. Kadir says "I called the brothers in
Do you remember that portion of the call?
9
10
Yes.
11
That Trinidad is a hot little island?
12
Yes.
13
Why?
14
He mentioned -- Abdul Kadir mentioned that because of all
15
the scrutiny that Abu Bakr was getting from the authorities
16
based upon his dealings with local drug gangs and also
17
international affairs with Moammar Khadafy in Libya and others
18
known or unknown.
Actually, he mentioned that he was hot at that
19
20
moment because of the level of inquiries of the local and
21
international authorities.
22
23
that "It may be a difficult time to discuss this with Abu
24
Bakr"; is that right?
25
Mr. Kadir says, during the portion we just listened to,
ANTHONY M. MANCUSO,
CSR

1
what happened, if they can hook you up to meet him."
2934
Then he says "But the brothers are going to try to see
Who was going to hook you up to meet with Abu Bakr,
3
4
anyway?
Abdel Nur, of course.
Abdul Kadir.
-- Kadir advises you that "When you're traveling, do not walk
10
He mentioned that he will speak to Abdul Raheem, and also

And when I say "he," "he" he meant
He says, later in the same call we just listened to, that
with anything that could implicate you."

What did you have that might be able to implicate
11
12
you?
13
14
the chip.
15
16
Bakr; is that correct?
17
Yes.
18
Who does he think should speak to Abu Bakr instead of
19
you?
20
21
one talking, because he's the one with the knowledge of the
22
JFK.
23
a candidate, because Abdel Nur is acquainted with him, and it
24
was mentioned to us that he was a founder, also, of JAM or
25
Muslimeen with Abu Bakr.
This is the Google Earth images, as well as the video in
He also suggests that you not be the one to speak to Abu
At first, he mentioned that Sheik Mohammed should be the
But also he switched, that actually Abdel Nur should be
ANTHONY M. MANCUSO,
CSR

1
Muslimeen, does that have a nickname?
JAM.
Turn to page fourteen of your transcript.
2935
THE COURT:
If you're going to play something --
MR. JONES:
Something new.
THE COURT:
-- we can stop there.
The jurors' lunches are ready.
We'll take our break
for lunch, and I hope to start up again at 2:15.
drill by now.
You know the
Don't form or draw any conclusions about
10
anything that you have heard in this case.
11
discuss this case among yourselves or with anyone else.
12
During the lunch break, you are free to use your cell phones,
13
but you may not use it to do any kind of research, or to read
14
or look at anything that might be reported about this case or
15
in connection with this case whatsoever or do any kind of
16
research in connection with this case.
17
18
You may not
So, enjoy your lunch, and we hope to be with you

about 2:15.
19
(Jury excused.)
20
THE COURT:
21
Mr. Francis, you may also take a lunch break.
22
All right.
ask you to come back at 2:15.
23
THE WITNESS:
24
THE COURT:
25
We'll
The same for the rest of the parties.
We'll see you at 2:15.
ANTHONY M. MANCUSO,
( Lunch recess.)
CSR

A F T E R N O O N
S E S S I O N
THE COURT:
and we'll go get our jurors.

MR. JONES:
(Jury present.)
THE COURT:
10
Welcome back.
Everyone, please be
seated.
Do the parties agree that all of our jurors are
12
13
Yes, your Honor.
STEVEN FRANCIS, resumed.
11
present and properly seated?
14
MR. JONES:
15
MS. WHALEN:
16
MR. NKRUMAH:
17
THE COURT:
Yes, your Honor.

Yes, your Honor.
Yes, your Honor.
This is, again, continued direct
18
examination of Mr. Francis by Mr. Jones on behalf of the
19
government.
Again, I remind you, sir, that you are still under
20
21
This
If everyone is ready, we can retrieve our witness,
7
8
This is case on trial continued.
is the afternoon session, same appearances as this morning.
5
6
2936
oath.
22
THE WITNESS:
23
THE COURT:
And you may inquire, Mr. Jones, when you
MR. JONES:
24
25
Yes.
are ready.
ANTHONY M. MANCUSO,
CSR

1
DIRECT EXAMINATION CONTINUED
BY MR. JONES:
transcripts and on the audio again.
2937
Mr. Francis, we were going to pick up back in the
For the jury, it's 223-T, page fourteen.
Are you there, Mr. Francis, as well.
THE WITNESS:
MR. JONES:
(Tape plays.)
10
(Tape stops.)
Yes.
Starting up around line one.
11
Mr. Francis, I want to make sure we're all literally on
12
the same page, page fourteen of 223-T, and what's being said
13
right now is around line sixteen.
14
Okay?
Yes.
15
(Tape plays.)
16
(Tape stops.)
17
Mr. Francis, in the discussion that you were just having
18
with Mr. Kadir about -- started off on page fourteen, you were
19
asking about the people who might be interested in the chicken
20
farm; correct?
21
Yes.
22
And you asked him what their response was, and Mr. Kadir
23
says that this would require careful planning and careful
24
thought, at the bottom of the page; correct?
25
That is correct.
ANTHONY M. MANCUSO,
CSR
2938
What were you and Mr. Defreitas and the others you
testified about, what were you lacking in terms of ability to
carry out this attack?
carry it out.
What about a religious aspect?
That, as well.
We were lacking actually financial as well as manpower to
MS. MESSINA:
THE COURT:
Objection, your Honor.

Overruled.
10
What aspect?
11
We was lacking a religious aspect, as well, an
12
understanding, a full understanding, of Islam according to the
13
sheiks and the knowledgeable people in Islam.
14
15
were lacking such support?
16
Yes.
17
Who was that?
18
Sheik Kadir did.
19
Defendant Kadir?
20
Yes.
21
Is that what you were discussing in the tape we just
22
heard?
23
Yes.
24
I ask you to flip ahead, again, to page twenty of your
25
transcript.
Did anyone involved in the plot tell you that, that you
We're going to start around where it says
ANTHONY M. MANCUSO,
CSR

1
2939
"29:21," the upper-middle part of the page.
(Tape plays.)
(Tape stops.)
Whose telephone number are you just testing here, who are
you trying to call?
Sheik Mohammed.
(Tape plays.)
(Tape stops.)
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
ANTHONY M. MANCUSO,
CSR
1
BY MR. JONES:
Who was that?
Abu Hussein.
Who is that?
Shia Muslim brother from Pakistan.
Salim's house at the time.
meaning Abdul Kadir's son.
2940
There's another voice that comes in on this conversation.
He was staying in
He has studied with him, Salim
10
Was Hussein present for the conversations regarding the
11
same plot?
12
I don't remember that.
13
We listened quite a bit from this tape Mr. Kadir in
14
Linden, fair to say the conversation lasted quite a long time?
15
Yes.
16
I'll ask you to jump ahead to page 37, down towards line
17
35.
(Tape plays.)
18
19
Who are you calling here while you're trying to dial the
20
phone?
21
Sheik Mohammed.
22
Meaning the defendant Defreitas?
23
Yes.
24
For what purpose?
25
The purpose of the call was to inform him of the change
SS
OCR
CM
CRR
CSR
2941
of minds of Abu Bakr, going to travel to Trinidad at this
point, to inform him of the traveling of Abdul Nur and also to
explain to him the matter that Abu Kadir was not actually
going to depart to us with Trinidad.
Wasn't coming with you on this trip?
On this trip, yes.

(Tape plays.)
7
8
There are these pauses.
of the conversation?
Why are we only hearing one side
10
At this point the phone is not on speaker phone.
11
Mr. Kadir is speaking with Defreitas but you can't hear
12
what Mr. Defreitas is saying?
13
That's correct.
14
How are you recording what's going on?
15
It's a bodies wire.
16
That's why sometimes there's lengthy pauses, somebody
17
else is speaking; is that right?
18
That's correct.
(Tape plays.)
19
20
Who were you on the phone with now, Mr. Francis?
21
I am not sure.
22
It will come up.
23
Thank you.
(Pause.)
24
25
I would like to hear further.
I believe --
SS
continue, I'm sorry.
OCR
CM
CRR
CSR
2942
(Tape plays.)
1
2
Do you remember?
I'm speaking to Abdul Nur at this point.
By the way, you say four thousand dollars, is that
American or Guyanese dollars?
Guyanese dollars.
(Tape plays.)
7
8
The trip to Trinidad that we've been discussing, the
flights you're discussing there, did that trip ever happen?
10
Yes.
11
Did you fly to Trinidad from Guyana?
12
Yes.
13
Who did you fly with?
14
I flown with Sheik Mohammed.
15
Did Abdul Nur fly with you?
16
He went but not with me.
17
Why not?
18
Sheik Mohammed had purchased a ticket in a different time
19
frame for Abdul Nur to actually travel to Trinidad.
20
21
Defendant Defreitas scheduled the flight for a different time?
22
Yes.
23
Why was it a different time?
24
Because he didn't want all of us, meaning Abdul Nur,
25
Sheik Kadir, all of us to go on one plane.
Was there any reason that Abdul Nur --
SS
OCR
CM
CRR
that the
CSR
2943
Did anybody pick you up at the airport when you arrived
in Trinidad?
Yes.
If you could tell us approximately the date that you
arrived in Trinidad?
Approximately the 20th of May.
2007?
That is correct.
Where did you stay during this trip?
10
Sheik Ibrahim's.
11
Sheik Ibrahim?
12
Yes.
13
How did you end up at Ibrahim Kareem's house?
14
Sheik
15
accommodate us in Trinidad and that's Abdul to pick us up at
16
the airport, to bring us directly to Sheik Ibrahim Kareem's
17
house in Trinidad.
18
19
as well as 81, 82 and 83.
20
Exhibit 6?
21
Yes.
22
Who is that?
23
That is Ibrahim Kareem.
24
Composite Exhibits 80 through 83, do you recognize those
25
photos?
Kadir had mentioned he spoke to Abdul Raheem to
I'll show you what's been marked as government Exhibit 6

Do you recognize Government
You can start with 80.
SS
OCR
CM
The numbers are on the back:
CRR
CSR
THE COURT:
2944
If you could tell us the number, what
that is a picture of?
of Sheik Ibrahim's house, I seen in the picture, recognize
Abdul Nur, Sheik Mohammed and Sheik Ibrahim.
81?
Exhibit 81 is picture of Sheik Ibrahim's house.
the picture there's Abdul Nur, Sheik Mohammed and myself.
82?
10
Exhibit 82, this is also a picture from the outside of
11
Sheik Ibrahim's house and this is Abdul Nur.
Government Exhibit 80, this is a picture of the outside
I see in
Government Exhibit 83 is a picture also of
12
13
Sheik Ibrahim's house.
14
Abdul Nur, Sheik Mohammed and myself.

MR. JONES:
15
In the picture I see Sheik Ibrahim,
The government moves --
withdrawn.
16
17
accurate representations of the meeting, of the interactions
18
you just discussed, I should say?
19
Yes.
20
That was during the trip that you've been testifying
21
about, correct?
22
23
24
25
Are these photographs that have been identified fair and
Yes, the trip to Trinidad.

MR. JONES:
I move into evidence Government
Exhibits 80, 81, 82, 83 and Government Exhibit 6.

THE COURT:
SS
Any objection?
OCR
CM
CRR
CSR
2945
MS. WHALEN:
MR. NKRUMAH:
THE COURT:
All admitted in evidence.
MR. JONES:
Permission to publish to the jury?
THE COURT:
Yes.
MR. JONES:
May I use the Elmo?
THE COURT:
Certainly.
evidence.
No objection.
No, your Honor.
Let's start with Government Exhibit 80 that's in

We'll zoom out here a little bit.
Whose house is
10
this?
11
Sheik Ibrahim Kareem.
12
Is this where you stayed while in Trinidad?
13
Yes.
14
The three individuals in the photograph, indicating on
15
the left, who is the person in the red hat there?
16
This is Sheik Ibrahim Kareem.
17
Who is in the middle?
18
Sheik Mohammed or Defreitas.
19
The person in the front?
20
Abdul Nur.
21
Did you take these pictures, Mr. Francis?
22
No.
23
Do you have any idea who was taking pictures of you while
24
you were in Trinidad?
25
No.
SS
OCR
CM
CRR
CSR
2946
Exhibit 81, it's the same thing you testified, same
house, correct?
Yes.
Who is this in the front?
That is me.
That's you?
Yes.
Exhibit 82, this is just a closer version.
Abdul Nur.
10
Finally, Exhibit 83, closer view of coming out --
11
in the middle of the screen is the stairs down, where is that
12
exiting from?
13
14
the bottom, if you appreciate the bottom part is the grocery
15
store, also belongs to him.
16
17
that?
18
19
Underneath him is Abdul Nur and then you have Sheik Mohammed
20
and then you have me on the very bottom.
21
This is you here with the beard?
22
Yes.
Who is this?
where
Sheik Ibrahim Kareem's house is on the second floor.
At the top behind you
--
behind the group --
On
who is
On the very top you can see Sheik Ibrahim Kareem.
THE COURT:
23
24
beard.
25
They all have beards.
The only black
Indicating the person with the little red on the shirt,
SS
OCR
CM
CRR
CSR
1
is that you?
Yes, the person with the red.

MR. JONES:
3
4
2947
Fair point.
When you stayed with Mr. Ibrahim --
withdrawn.
These photos show you with Abdul Nur.
You said you
didn't fly down with Abdul Nur.
Where did you meet up with
him?
Masjid Al-Muslimeen, Jam, the mosque of Abu Bakr entering
We meet up with him a couple of days later at
10
that.
11
12
13
those photographs?
14
Yes.
15
What is it?
16
Is the mosque of Abu Bakr, entering and --
17
the Exhibits are 17 and 16.
18
Does that have anything to do with Jam?
19
Yes, this is actually Jamaat Al-Muslimeen run by
20
Abu Bakr.
21
22
where you could find Abu Bakr?
23
I'm showing you what's been marked as
I'm sorry,
Is this an accurate representation of Jam or Abu Bakr
Yes, also where I found Abdul Nur at that time.

MR. JONES:
24
25
Do you recognize what's in
Move Government Exhibits 16 and 17 into
evidence.
SS
OCR
CM
CRR
CSR
2948
MS. WHALEN:
No objection.
MR. NKRUMAH:
THE COURT:
(So marked.)
MR. JONES:
Permission to publish?
THE COURT:
Yes.
No objection.
Admitted in evidence as 16 and 17.
This is Exhibit 16, Mr. Francis.
Yes.
You testified that's Jam?
10
Yes.
11
Same for Exhibit 17; is that right?
12
Yes.
13
You said you found Abdul Nur at Jam; is that correct?
14
Yes, we did, the group did.
15
Who were you with when you found him?
16
It was Ibrahim Kareem, Sheik Mohammed and Saifullah.
17
That's another person?
18
That's another person, yes.
19
This complex here that's located in the picture, does it
20
extend past this one building?
21
Yes.
22
Did you have any discussions with Abdul Nur with what he
23
had been doing in the period between the time he arrived in
24
Trinidad and the time you found him at Jam?
25
Yes.
SS
OCR
CM
CRR
CSR
2949
What did he tell you he had been doing?
He said he was staying at the Majid Al-Muslimeen, the one
we just appreciate in the picture and that also that he had
been speaking to Abu Bakr about the Chicken Farm or the JFK
plot.
He told you he had actually been to see Abu Bakr?
Yes.
Did Mr. Nur tell you what, if anything, Abu Bakr said in
response?
10
Yes.
11
What was that?
12
He said he would like to meet us Thursday.
13
Meet who?
14
Meet Sheik Mohammed and me.
15
You mentioned that you stayed with Kareem Ibrahim who is
16
now on the board?
17
Yes.
18
What if anything was explained to Kareem Ibrahim about
19
the plot to attack JFK?
20
21
to him he had something to show him and this was bigger than
22
the World's Trade Center.
23
24
relation to the plot?
25
It was brought out to him by Sheik Mohammed, he mentioned
Did you or Mr. Defreitas show Kareem Ibrahim anything in
Sheik Mohammed and I both showed.
SS
OCR
CM
CRR
CSR
2950
What did you show?
We showed him the video as well as the Google Earth
images of JFK.
how was it stored?
It was still in the chip, inside the thumb drive.
A chip?
Still in the same chip of the camera and the chip was
placed inside of a thumb drive in order for it to be shown on
How was the video stored at this point?
Was it on --
10
any computer.
11
12
thumb drive into a computer?
13
That is correct.
14
You were there when the video was shown to Kareem
15
Ibrahim?
16
Yes.
17
I'm showing you what's been marked as government exhibits
18
224, two 25 --
19
20
drive, at this point Sheik Mohammed did not want the video to
21
be shown in the computer because he wanted to have a bigger
22
picture to display.
23
TV, like we did at Sheik Rutherford's office on the beginning
24
of the playing of the video.
25
The storage device out of the camera would then go into a
I also must say even though the chip was inside a thumb
He asked me to actually play it on the
I'm showing you 224, 225, 226 and 227 for identification.
SS
OCR
CM
CRR
CSR
2951
Can you look at each in turn and tell us what's on each CD.
Tell us the number.
It's in Trinidad on May 24th, 2007, and people involved are
Sheik Mohammed, Abdul Nur, Sheik Ibrahim and myself.
believe also there was some interactions with people coming
and going but basically that's it.
Exhibit 224 is audio that I have body wired, the audio.
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
SS
OCR
CM
CRR
CSR
2952
1
BY
Okay.
The next, 225?
Okay.
This is also audio, recording of in Trinidad and
it was May 24, 2007.
are -- it's Sheik Mohammed involved in the conversation, Sheik
Ibrahim, Abdel Nur, Sheik Kadir at some point and myself.
226?
This is also audio from body wire, May 26, 2007, and on
MR. JONES:
Also body wire.
And actually we
10
the conversations is Sheik Mohammed, Ibrahim Kareem, Abdel
11
Nur, Musa and myself.
12
13
M U S A?
14
Yes.
15
What is 227?
16
Okay.
17
It's May 29, 2007.
18
reframe that this audio is on May 29th and I am not sure -- I
19
don't believe it was in Trinidad at this point.
20
sure.
Musa, this is somebody we haven't discussed before.
This is also audio, body wire, from Trinidad.

It is conversation -- actually -- I must
I am not
And it's between me, Sheik Mohammed, Kadir and Sheik
21
22
Ibrahim.
It's possible it was on the phone at this point.
23
Do you recognize these four exhibits?
24
Yes, I do.
25
These are your initials that you placed on these
GR
OCR
CM
CRR
CSR
2953
1
exhibits?
Yes.
Was that after you listened to each one of them?
Yes.
Are they fair and accurate representations of the
conversations that you recorded during this investigation?
Yes.
MR. JONES:
8
9
Your Honor, I move 224, 225, 226 and 227
into evidence.
10
MS. WHALEN:
11
MR. NKRUMAH:
12
THE COURT:
They are all admitted.
13
MR. JONES:
Your Honor, for purposes of your
14
No objection.
No objection.
records, 224 corresponds to ID-81, session two.
15
225 corresponds to ID-81, session three.
16
226 corresponds to ID-81, session ten.
17
And finally, 227 corresponds to ID-83, session
18
three.
19
(So marked.)
20
MR. JONES:
21
With Your Honor's permission, I will
publish some of this audio to the jury.

THE COURT:
22
23
24
224 T?
25
Sure.
We will start, Mr. Francis, with -- if you will turn to
Yes.
GR
OCR
CM
CRR
CSR
2954
1
We will pick up at the beginning, where it says,
television broadcast.
There is a television in the background, is that
3
4
right?
That's what's going on?
Yes.
6
7
There is a lot of television in the background, is that
correct?
Yes.
10
Who are you meeting with here?
11
This is Sheik Ibrahim Kareem, as well as Sheik Mohammed,
12
Nur and myself are present at this point.
13
Mr. Ibrahim on -MR. JONES:
14
Is that not working?
Anybody else, if
15
it doesn't work?
16
17
little difficult to hear on these tapes?
18
Yes.
19
Somewhat soft spoken and speaks very fast?
20
Yes.
21
If you flip past some of this and go to page three, at
22
the top?
23
Yes.
24
25
Is it fair to say, Mr. Francis, that Mr. Ibrahim can be a
Just to pause for a minute.
GR
OCR
CM
CRR
CSR
2955
Mr. Francis, when earlier in the conversation
1
2
Ibrahim is having -- is discussing somebody named Yasin, who
is Yasin?
He meant Yasin Abu Bakr.
Yasin is part of Abu Bakr's name?
Yes.
It's actually first -- part of his name, yes.
7
8
So when he says -- when DeFreitas at the top of page six
asks if -- asked Ibrahim if Ibrahim thinks that Yasin would
10
support us in our project in Guyana if we approached him, that
11
Yasin is Abu Bakr?
12
Yes.
13
What is the project?
14
He meant the -- the chicken farm.
15
All of this discussion about what Yasin is doing and his
16
connections with other people and kidnappings in Syria, this
17
is all Abu Bakr?
18
Yes.
19
(Tape plays; tape stops. )
20
MR. NKRUMAH:
21
22
23
Your Honor, before we begin, we
want -- with more of the tape, my client needs a break.

THE COURT:
Okay.
We will take a break.
This is a
good time to take a break.
24
MR. JONES:
Yes, Your Honor.
25
THE COURT:
Remember to keep an open mind.
GR
OCR
CM
CRR
CSR
Not to
2956
1
form or draw any conclusions about the case.
you can't discuss this case among yourselves or with anyone
else.
time for any purpose, not to make calls or anything else.
Remember that you can't read, look at, view or listen to
anything connected with this case or any research, do any
research connected with this case.
Remember that you can't use your cellphones at this
We should be with you, let's say, by about a quarter
8
9
Remember that
to four.
10
All right.
11
12
THE COURT:
13
You also can take a break for about ten minutes.
14
THE WITNESS:
15
THE COURT:
We will resume at about a quarter to
MR. JONES:
So you know in terms of timing, I think
16
17
Thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you.
four.
18
what will happen is these tapes will take us through the end
19
of the day.
20
want to stay particularly late, and then maybe a little more
21
in the morning and then I think we will be ready for cross.
Assuming everyone is tired and isn't going to
22
THE COURT:
Okay.
23
(Recess taken.)
24
25
GR
OCR
CM
CRR
CSR
2957
1
THE COURT:
Please get the witness.
(Witness present.)
(Jury present.)
THE COURT:
Everyone, please be seated.
Does everyone agree that all of our jurors are print
Have a seat, please.
The jury is entering.
and properly seated?
10
MR. JONES:
11
MS. WHALEN:
12
MR. NKRUMAH:
13
THE COURT:
14
This is continued direct examination in the
15
Yes, Your Honor.

Yes, Your Honor.
Yes, Your Honor.
Thank you.
government's case in chief of Mr. Francis.
16
Welcome back, sir.
17
THE WITNESS:
18
THE COURT:
19
THE WITNESS:
20
THE COURT:
Mr. Jones, you may inquire when you are
22
MR. JONES:
Yes, Your Honor.
23
21
Yes.
Thank you.
You are still under oath.

Yes.
ready.
Thank you.
24
25
GR
OCR
CM
CRR
CSR
2958
1
BY
the middle of discussing a lengthy conversation that you
recorded with Kareem Ibrahim, Russell DeFreitas and others.
Is that right?
Yes.
The conversation was early in the morning, late at night,
middle of day, when was this happening?
MR. JONES:
Mr. Francis, when we broke for the break, we had been in
10
In the daytime.
11
Do you remember having -- we are on 224, Exhibit 224.
12
Correct?
13
Yes.
14
All right.
15
night conversation about these topics?
16
Yes, I do.
17
It goes on until -- for quite sometime, is that right?
18
That is correct.
19
Now, at the beginning, towards the early part of this
20
conversation, you testified about these discussions about
21
Yasin.
22
23
this conversation was in daytime.
24
actually drags on to late that night.
25
This was, do you remember a late -- late
You said --
Yes.
Okay.
I must recall myself and I had said before that

It was fairly nighttime and
The discussions you were having about Yasin Abu
GR
OCR
CM
CRR
CSR
2959
1
Bakr?
Yes.
There is -- the discussion early on where Mr. Ibrahim is
telling you and Mr. DeFreitas about his -- Yasin's
characteristics, that's where we broke off, correct?
Yes.
And I think one of the last things you said was that
when -- at the top of page six, there is a statement, or
question posed by Mr. DeFreitas that says, do you think -- do
10
you think -- do you think Yasin would support us with our
11
project in Guyana if we approached him?

What is that actually referring to?
12
13
Well, yes.
Actually, as I recall now, we have actually
14
presented at that particular time that Sheik Mohammed had
15
mentioned that we were there gathering support to establish a
16
mosque in Linden.
17
plot, actually that -- that is not at that particular moment
18
but later on in conversation.
19
discussing the matters of the -- the masjid or mosque or place
20
of prayer there is a going to be built and -- in Linden.
21
22
plot with Kareem Ibrahim?
23
Yes, that is correct.
24
That hasn't happened yet in what we are listening to, is
25
that right?
So as I said early pertaining to the JFK
At this moment we are just
At some point in the future do you eventually discuss the
GR
OCR
CM
CRR
CSR
2960
1
That is correct.
If I can direct your attention to page 36, I will ask you
to focus -- we are going to start at the top, around line
four.
Yes.
Again, page 36 of 224 T.
Yes.
Starting at line four, where it says no, you started
discussing.
10
Yes.
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
GR
OCR
CM
CRR
CSR
2961
BY MR. JONES:
Mr. Defreitas starts off by telling Mr. Ibrahim about a
hypothetical question for you, and the discussion about an
idea that is bigger than the Twin Towers; is that right?
Yes.
Mr. Defreitas says at some point that Abdul Kadir was
having no part of it, and that he says "We didn't deceive him,
and we didn't deceive you.
Okay.
Mr. Francis, during this segment of the tape,
We just asked who are the best
10
people we could approach to meet.
11
Is that true?
We want to build a Masjid."
Is that the only thing you discussed
12
with Abdul Kadir.
13
That's not true.
14
What is the point of telling Ibrahim Kareem something
15
false?
16
Well, at this point, Ibrahim Kareem is not --
17
MR. NKRUMAH:
18
THE COURT:
19

You want to have a sidebar, we can have
a sidebar.
20
(Sidebar.)
21
THE COURT:
22
MR. NKRUMAH:
Basis for the objection?

Your Honor, this witness is about to
23
testify to an opinion -- this witness is about to testify to
24
Mr. Defreitas's state of mind.
25
direct, where Mr. Jones will ask him about the sentence, and
ANTHONY M. MANCUSO,
CSR
He's been doing most of the
2962
he'll put his own interpretations.
He's about to testify to
someone else's state of mind.
to why he understands the state of mind, he can't testify as
to what Mr. Defreitas thinks.
Unless he lays a foundation as
MR. JONES:
First of all, your Honor --
THE COURT:
Mr. Ibrahim, I think, was the subject of
the question.
Can I have the question read back, please.
(Record read.)
MR. NKRUMAH:
10
The question is based on what
11
Mr. Defreitas -- Annas's understanding of why he's telling
12
Ibrahim.
THE COURT:
13
You can ask foundation questions in that
14
regard, whether they had any discussion beforehand as to what
15
Mr. Defreitas was going to discuss with Mr. Ibrahim.

MR. JONES:
16
I will do that, your Honor.
I expect
17
that he will say that Mr. Defreitas -- he had had discussions
18
about this topic and why they would hide, initially,
19
Mr. Kadir's involvement.

THE COURT:
20
21
You need to ask those foundation
questions before you get to that point.
22
MR. JONES:
Yes, your Honor.
23
THE COURT:
So, the objection is sustained on that
24
25
ground.
But that means you need to elicit those foundation
ANTHONY M. MANCUSO,
CSR

1
2
2963
questions.
MR. JONES:
I would also say, given the long -- this
is now May of 2007 -- given the nearly a year that
Mr. Defreitas and Mr. Francis were spending a great deal of
time together, I think it's also fair at this point, like we
do with a lot of witnesses who know each other very well, What
did you understand him to mean?
for two days now.
9
10
11
12
MR. NKRUMAH:
MR. JONES:
That foundation has been laid
No.
It's similar to having a drug-dealing
conversation when you ask about T-shirts.

THE COURT:
I think that that's a fair statement of
13
where the relationship is at this point.
14
degree that they had conversations as to how they were going
15
to approach Ibrahim, I think that that's probably the better
16
approach to take.
17
However, to the
It's a cleaner approach to take.
MR. JONES:
I'm happy to do that.
For future
18
purposes, it is very similar to a drug wiretap, when the
19
questions are asked, What did he mean by T-shirts?
20
you understand him to mean?
21
of cocaine.
22
THE COURT:
What did
Like he was talking about kilos
This is a somewhat different situation,
23
in that he's -- based on what we have already heard to date,
24
he's completely turning around what Kadir has said.
25
MR. JONES:
Right.
ANTHONY M. MANCUSO,
That's fine.
CSR

1
2
THE COURT:
I think it's clearer this way.
2964
So, just
lay the foundation.
MR. NKRUMAH:
(In open court.)
THE COURT:
The objection is sustained as to form.
MR. JONES:
Your Honor, I'll rephrase.
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
ANTHONY M. MANCUSO,
CSR
2965
BY MR. JONES:
conversations with Defendant Defreitas concerning what level
of information you would convey to Kareem Ibrahim during this
meeting?
that Ibrahim Kareem should be involved what we're doing.
Mr. Francis, if you could tell us, did you have any
He actually mentioned that he was staying at that house,
Did Mr. Defreitas say whether or not Mr. Ibrahim would be
10
given all the details early on?
11
12
sensitive because he had been stopped at the airport.
13
been also sensitive about allowing, as he speaks to the
14
people, he was being careful because he was not aware at that
15
moment of the plot.
16
17
not an accurate statement by Mr. Defreitas, do you remember
18
that, the top of page 42?
19
I remember the page but I don't understand the question.
20
Would you read from line 2 to line 7 on page 42?
I don't recall that.
Actually, I do remember he was very

He had
The paragraph that we just discussed which you said was
21
THE COURT:
22
MR. JONES:
23
(Pause.)
Read it out loud?

To himself.
24
Do you recall what I was asking you about?
25
Yes.
SS
OCR
CM
CRR
CSR
2966
At the time of this conversation that you just read, had
you had conversations with Mr. Defreitas about how much
specificity you would give to Ibrahim about Mr. Kadir?
MR. NKRUMAH:
THE COURT:
Objection.
Overruled.
You can answer.
At this point I'm not even aware to the full extent what
he was going to present to Ibrahim Kareem.
to be presented to Abu Bakr and he was gathering as much
The plot was going
10
information as he could from Abu Bakr and when he fell out of
11
ease, realized certain points that attracted Sheik Mohammed to
12
Ibrahim Kareem, he just blurted out there, just said a
13
hypothetical question.
14
plot was going to be presented to Ibrahim at any time.
15
said before, he did feel compelled to tell him about it.
16
expressed because we were staying in his house.
17
won't be nice that we walk into Abu Bakr's presence, something
18
was to go wrong and we're staying at his house.
19
even aware of the plot.
20
21
July of 2006 through May of 2007; is that right?
22
Yes.
23
You told us the last couple of days you and Mr. Defreitas
24
presented a plot to multiple people; is that correct?
25
It was unexpected.
I did not know the

As I
He
He said it
He was not
You knew Mr. Defreitas at this point from some time in
Yes.
SS
OCR
CM
CRR
CSR
2967
You had been through the drill before of how to present
the plot; is that right?
Yes.
Based on all of that, based on your relationship with
Mr. Defreitas, did you have an understanding of why it was
Defreitas would say something false to Mr. Ibrahim?

MR. NKRUMAH:
7
8
Yes.
THE COURT:
9
10
Objection.
Overruled.
You can answer.

Why?
11
12
13
Sheik Rutherford as well as Sheik Dawood, he felt at some
14
point there was no need to inform information until the people
15
that would be involved in the plot actually are in agreement
16
with.
17
protect those that were involved in the plot at that moment.
18
19
not interested, I want nothing to do with it," what does
20
Mr. Defreitas's statement here, how does that help Mr. Kadir?
21
22
actually there was an agreement with the plot.
23
But he was.
24
He was.
25
Yes, based on the experience that he had with
If they're not in agreement with, he was trying to
Let's take this.
For example, if Mr. Ibrahim said "I'm
Actually, Sheik Ibrahim Kareem will never know that
MR. NKRUMAH:
SS
OCR
CM
CRR
CSR
THE COURT:
2968
Overruled.
You mentioned a little lower that says I can't --
this
is Mr. Defreitas speaking.
to a man who I was told has so many controversy and
situations.
Abu Bakr --
That's the conversation, the information he's getting
from Ibrahim about the controversy?
That is correct.
10
When we stopped the tape, Russell Defreitas had just
11
asked Ibrahim to show something on his TV; is that right?
12
Yes.
13
What were you going to show on the TV?
14
The video, the footage that Sheik Mohammed and I took of
15
the JFK Airport.
16
Did you show him the video?
17
Yes.
18
Did you fill him in on any more details about the plot?
19
Yes.
20
Who was doing most of the talking?
21
Sheik Mohammed.
22
If you could turn to page 48 at the top, before I play
23
this, Mr. Francis, did there come a time after what you just
24
testified about, did there come a time when you or
25
Mr. Defreitas gave more detail on Abdul Kadir's involvement in
I can't take something like this
Who is the man with controversy and situations?
SS
sorry -- Abu Bakr.
OCR
CM
CRR
CSR
2969
the plot?
Yes.
Did you speak with Abdul Kadir after this part about ways
to further the plot?
That's correct.
MR. JONES:
and 46 minutes and 37 seconds.

(Tape plays.)
8
9
If we could pick up at the top, an hour
What are you showing him when you say this is what you
10
see through the satellite?
11
12
Google Earth I spoke about early on.
This will be the Google Earth, the printouts of the
(Tape plays.)
13
14
Mr. Francis, when Mr. Ibrahim just finishes saying that
15
Isn't it dangerous for you to travel with this, is he pointing
16
at something?
17
18
Google Earth.
19
The things that you were just showing him?
20
Yes.
21
By the way, earlier --
What is "this
He meant the video and the printouts of the JFK through
withdrawn.
Did you ultimately travel with that video and Google
22
23
maps, leave Trinidad?
24
25
leave it with Ibrahim Kareem.
Yes, it was left because Sheik Mohammed instructed me to
SS
OCR
CM
CRR
CSR
2970
When you left Trinidad you did not have it with you?
Not at all.
(Tape plays.)
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
SS
OCR
CM
CRR
CSR
2971
BY
that Sheik Mohammed and Sheik Kadir said that if these things
were not properly displayed it wouldn't make no sense.
MR. JONES:
Mr. Francis, you just finished telling Kareem Ibrahim
Who were you referring to when you said Sheik
6
7
Mohammed?
Rutherford -- I mean, Sheik Mohammed is DeFreitas.
And Sheik Kadir is who?
10
Abdul Kadir.
11
Those are the two defendants on trial?
12
Yes.
13
When you said these -- if these things are not properly
14
displayed, it won't make no sense, what were you referring to
15
when you said these things?
16
Meaning the printout of the Google Earth.
17
You said that he saw it before we came here.

Who saw what?
18
19
Abdul Kadir.
20
Saw what?
21
The printout of Google Earth.

22
23
Mr. Francis, when you asked Kareem Ibrahim just now, you
24
are going to find a contact and he says yes.
25
what I can do, maybe local contact.
GR
OCR
CM
CRR
He says, see
CSR
2972
Contact for what?
1
2
To support economically and with the manpower to actually
carry out the JFK plot.
contact.
He says maybe a local contact or maybe an international
Why international?
6
7
He had mentioned that he had contacts in Iran that may be
interested, as well as in England, to carry out a project
like -- of this magnitude.

10
11
It says, you ask -- you ask DeFreitas, what are you going
12
to do?
13
he -- he been told them already.
What are you going to do with Sheik Abu Bakr?
Because
Who had been told what?
14
15
16
Abu Bakr that we were there to -- for a meeting for this plot
17
and he hasn't -- he didn't go in depth because he was leaving
18
Sheik Mohammed to explain the whole in depth of the attack.
19
But at this point actually it was of my concern of safety and
20
that's one of the reasons why I asked him, what are you going
21
to do now with Abu Bakr, being the fact that he was aware that
22
we were there to present this plot to him.
23
24
the Sheik.
25
Yes.
Abdel Nur had expressed that he had mentioned to
When DeFreitas replies, we got to talk, we got to talk to

That's why this whole thing started about.
Who did you understand the Sheik to refer to when he
GR
OCR
CM
CRR
CSR
2973
asked you that question?
needed to speak to -- to Sheik Ibrahim Kareem to gather the
necessary thoughts to actually either -- to either mention it
to Abu Bakr or not.
Well, he needed to speak to Sheik Kadir as well as he
MR. JONES:
6
7
we can keep going.
It is up to Your Honor.
THE COURT:
Okay.
10
Your Honor, this is a stopping place or
We can stop here.
Ladies and gentlemen, we are going to stop
here for the day.
11
Remember, please, to keep an open mind, not to form
12
or draw any opinions or conclusions about what you have heard
13
or seen in this case thus far.

Remember, please, that you cannot discuss this case
14
15
among yourselves or with anyone else.
16
friends, coworkers, anyone.
That's family members,
You may not listen to, look at, read, hear anything
17
18
that might be connected with this case over any form of media.
19
You may not do any research about anything connected with this
20
case, visit or view any locations that may have been mentioned
21
during the course of this case.

We will start tomorrow at 9:30.
22
Hopefully all the
23
traffic and lighting problems, electrical problems, will have
24
been taken care of with all the affected areas by this
25
evening.
GR
OCR
CM
CRR
CSR
2974
Okay.
1
2
the evening.
Get home safely.
So we will see you tomorrow at 9:30.
Get some rest.
Enjoy
It will be a full day tomorrow.
THE COURT:
Mr. Francis, thank you.
You are excused until tomorrow at 9:30.
All right.
So you are
free to leave.
THE WITNESS:
Thank you so much.
10
(Witness excused.)
11
THE COURT:
12
You may all be seated.
Is there anything that the parties want
to address this evening?
13
MR. MILLER:
14
THE COURT:
15
MR. MILLER:
Briefly, Your Honor.

Yes?
Because the court reporters are working
16
hard and doing a lot of shifts and because of some of the
17
names that have come up, we have noticed that there have been
18
some discrepancies in the transcript between what the parties
19
agreed had been said, usually having to do with names or
20
jargon.
21
to the defense and we have at least I think come to an
22
agreement with respect to one day, the first day, and we
23
wanted to know if that process comported with the way Your
24
Honor wanted to handle transcripts.
25
We had been compiling our lists and submitting them
THE COURT:
GR
I think that that's fine.
OCR
CM
CRR
CSR
It makes
2975
1
sense.
MS. WHALEN:
We will try catch up over the weekend
and get back on the program with the government so we can get
them to the reporters.
THE COURT:
MR. MILLER:
Okay.
We agreed on the first day.
The second
day we have submitted to the defense and then they will get
back to us.
By the end of the week we will work on this week's
9
10
We are also a little behind as well.
transcripts as well.
Once we have come to an agreement, how does Your
11
12
Honor want to go about having us submit that?
13
To the court reporters?

THE COURT:
14
To Your Honor?
Both?
I would like to take a quick look at it
15
myself and then I will let you know if I agree.
16
everybody's recollection, I'm sure that it will be fine.
17
we can give it to the reporters so that they can make the
18
appropriate edits.
19
MR. MILLER:
20
straight to chambers?
THE COURT:
21
22
Then
Would you like us to submit that

Would you like to us put that on ECF?
You can just do that straight to
chambers.
23
MR. MILLER:
24
THE COURT:
25
Between
We will work with Mr. Chen on that.

The final transcript eventually will
likely be posted.
GR
OCR
CM
CRR
CSR
2976
1
MR. MILLER:
THE COURT:
Thank you.
Marshals may take charge.
(Recess taken until 9:30, July 8, 2010.)
In keeping with the ECF requirements.
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
GR
OCR
CM
CRR
CSR
2977
INDEX
1
2
WITNESS:
PAGE:
3
4
5
S T E V E N
F R A N C I S
DIRECT EXAMINATION CONTINUED
2875
2937
*****
6
7
8
9
10
11
214
70 and 71
215
216
217
218 and 219
220, 221 and 222
223-A
80, 81, 82, 83 and Government Exhibit 6
16 and 17
224, 225, 226 and 227
12
*****
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
2885
2892
2895
2898
2902
2905
2919
2930
2944
2948
2953

(English) Transcript of Trial - United States of America V Russell Defreitas, Abdul Kadir - 7-7-2010

Transféré par

Informations du document

Description originale:

Titre original

Copyright

Formats disponibles

Partager ce document

Partager ou intégrer le document

Options de partage

Avez-vous trouvé ce document utile ?

Ce contenu est-il inapproprié ?

Droits d'auteur :

Formats disponibles

(English) Transcript of Trial - United States of America V Russell Defreitas, Abdul Kadir - 7-7-2010

Transféré par

Droits d'auteur :

Formats disponibles

2846

UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT

For the Government:

For the Defendants:

KAFAHNI NKRUMAH, ESQ.

Proceedings recorded by mechanical stenography, transcript

OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

(In open court; jury not present.)

Marshall Miller, Jason Jones, Berit

Berger, Zainab Ahmad, joined by Detective Investigator Robert

Len Kamdang of Federal Defenders for

the defendant Defreitas.

Ms. Whalen will be joining us

Kafahni Nkrumah for Mr. Kadir, and

Ms. Messina will be joining us shortly.

Good morning to all of you.

We're having a terrible heat wave, and that's

causing problems in the Federal Defenders office, and probably

will cause transportation delays for the jury.

We're here outside of the presence of the jury to

address a CIPA motion that was filed by the defense, defense

counsel for Mr. Defreitas, joined in by counsel for Mr. Kadir.

The government had asked for permission to respond

Thank you, your Honor.

As Mr. Kamdang indicated yesterday, he and I had

spoken about the substance of the motion that's currently

pending, and with an eye towards moving towards the heart of

the matter rather than lingering on some of the requested

And I think the parties agreed that the

OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

primary issue here is whether the document in question, which

I'll identify as Government's Exhibit 3500-RJA-18, whether

that document and the information contained in it could be

used in any way by the defense, and whether, in trying to use

the information beyond cross-examination of Detective

Addonizio or Detective Hanratty, such use would require the

disclosure of classified information and thus require CIPA

Mr. Kamdang had, through his motion, requested

certain pieces of information relating to the memorandum that

I have identified as 3500-RJA-18.

Can we just call it the 2006 memo?

The 2006 memo.

And from the government's perspective, the various pieces of

information that are requested aren't the subject of discovery

under the Federal Rules or under Brady or Giglio, and would

only become relevant if the information in the memorandum were

somehow admissible in some form beyond use for

cross-examination of Detective Addonizio.

I wanted to set the stage for what we wanted to

argue today, which was that the information in the document is

not admissible beyond its use to cross-examine Detective

Addonizio or Detective Hanratty, and in order to make that

OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

point, a few factual points are important.

party; that is, it was not written by Detective Addonizio or

not part of the prosecution or investigative team.

for a separate agency, which has not been identified, because

that information is classified.

The document itself does not purport to quote

That third party, that individual, was

Detective Addonizio or Detective Hanratty, at least in the

sections that are identified by the defense as of particular