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By Tim Ventura & Art Schatz, August 8th, 2006

At a million rounds a minute, Metal Storm is
all about delivering firepower. Whether youre
firing bullets from a rifle or grenades from a
UGV, this unique new 21st-century weapons
technology has you covered. Art Schatz takes us
on a tour of the gun of tomorrow

AAG:

I'd like to start out by

congratulating you on your recent success in
the Discovery Channel's "Future Weapons"
program. I'd previously read about the Metal
Storm technology a few years ago in Popular
Science, but hadn't realized how far along you
were in the development process until I saw
your stunning demonstrations on television.
Can you tell us a bit about what it was like to
work with Discovery on this show?

Schatz: The Discovery Channel has a

very professional team and they produce
widely watched programs so it was exciting
for us to be working with such a fantastic
team of people. We are well down the
development path now and have come a long
way with our engineering effort over the last
18 months. We have a number of products on
the development path and we are moving to a
very exciting stage with our unique
technology. Discovery were so impressed with
Metal Storm that they are considering doing
another segment on a test range and
highlighting our weapon system from the
operational standpoint.
AAG:

How did the concept for Metal

Storm actually originate? I mean, people have
been complaining about cartridges &
magazines for decades, but you're the first
company to radically change the equation by
actually putting the magazine into the barrel
and sequentially firing stacked rounds. Where
did this innovative idea come from?

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Schatz:

It originated from an idea the founder had that bullets could be fired from a
stacked position in a rifle barrel and that the discharge of the lead bullet would not set off the
remainder. The founder, Mike O Dwyer, was only several months old when his father died as
part of an invasion force into Borneo a few days before the end of World War II. He thought that
if his father had a more effective weapon he might have been able to survive and it was this
aspect that drove him to consider various opportunities for the improvement of conventional
weaponry. He began to conceptualize an idea and eventually took it to local gun shop to build
the first prototypes which proved to be the formal genesis of Metal Storm.

AAG: Speaking of which, from watching the show it appeared that the ability to stack & fire
projectiles seated in rows in the barrel really is the magic that makes the Metal Storm concept
work. I understand that you use an electrochemical combustion process to ignite each round
individually, and I'm wondering if you could describe the mechanism behind how this solution
actually works?

Schatz:

Actually it is considered electronic

inductive initiation and has nothing to do
electrochemical combustion. What we are able to
do to is send an electronic signal down the barrel
using inductive coupling to create ignition. So
basically instead of having a standard mechanical
hammer hitting a percussion cap to ignite
propellant, we use an electronic primer and
standard propellant. The fact that this signal is
sent electronically means that we can send multiple
signals down the barrel to multiple projectiles at
extremely high electronic rates.

AAG:

The ammunition you're firing is typically

caseless, right? I can't picture this weapon being
capable of ejecting traditional spent cartridges, and
yet it seems like developing caseless ammunition
adds an extra design challenge to the technology.
Can you tell us about the different types of
ammunition that you're capable of firing with this
device?

Rapid Fire: Projectiles are stacked in the

barrel and fired electronically in sequence.

Schatz: No, we are not using caseless ammunition and we have none of the problems that
are associated with attempts to commercialize caseless ammunition. Metal Storm combines off
the shelf warheads with our own unique patented tailpiece. We have fired HE, thermobaric and
airburst munitions however we are also able to fire munitions according to customer
requirements. The great thing about Metal Storm technology is that we can fire different
munition natures simultaneously, or at variable rates of fire. We can provide for a scaled
response from the same weapon pod and we are also capable of providing very rapid and intense
bursts of firepower. The ability to simply and immediately select munitions to suit the
operational situation is a real advantage.
AAG: It appears that many of the Metal-Storm weapons feature multiple barrels - including
even the handgun that you've constructed. It seems like this is a pervasive design element across

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your entire line of weapons systems, but I'm wondering what advantages it conveys, especially
given the already amazing capability of the Metal-Storm platform to deliver a high-rate stream
of projectiles?

Schatz:

When you consider that Metal Storm stacks its projectiles in the barrel, then
naturally the more projectiles the longer the barrel will have to be. We have found that by using
multiple barrels we gained two advantages. First, since in reality each barrel can be considered
an individual weapon we can use mixed loads of munitions in a single weapon. We might have a
barrel that fires sensors, another that fires flares, others that carry less-lethal projectiles with the
remaining barrels carrying a variety of lethal warheads from standard HE to fragmentation to
air burst or thermobaric rounds. Also, since we would want to carry a sufficient quantity of
projectiles for a given mission, having the multiple barrels allows us carry enough ammo in a
relatively compact weapon. Sometimes we like to refer to the Metal Storm gun as the box of
ammunition that can be fired. In reality you can load the ammo in the factory, ship it, store it,
then take it to the battlefield and fire it.

AAG: Speaking of which, I'd like to ask a bit more about the "Metal Storm Handgun". This
was a new feature that really took me by surprise in the Discovery Special, and I'm wondering if
you have any thoughts on how this changes the typical dynamic for handguns in terms of firing
rate, accuracy, and ammunition expenditure?
Schatz: The handgun was a compact way of demonstrating the stacked round technology as
well as incorporating numerous features that an electronic weapon allows. This included smart
gun technology that would allow the handgun to be fired only by authorized users. While
working on a grant from the National Institute
of Justice (NIJ) on smart gun technology we
became aware of work being conducted by the
New Jersey Institute of Technology (NJIT) on a
Dynamic Grip Recognition (DGR) technology,
and we have been working with them since to
marry our technologies.
The ballistic
characteristics and performance of the handgun
in terms of rates of fire, accuracy and
ammunition expenditure are similar to
conventional handguns. Metal Storm's current
activities are really focused on our 40 mm
systems however we will continue to explore
any opportunities for the handgun for the
Handgun: The O Dwyer VLE Smartgun is the
future.
worlds first all-electronic solid-state handgun.

AAG:

So many different aspects of the Metal Storm technology are such radical departures
from traditional weapons that I can't help but wonder how difficult the early prototypes were to
design, construct, and troubleshoot. I mean, you've changed so many paradigms in terms of
barrels, firing rate, ammunition, and configuration that I'm wondering if you've encountered
any difficulties in the integration process?

Schatz: The prototypes we have built have worked very well indeed and the technology has
performed as expected. There are the normal technical challenges in any new effort but we are
very happy with regard to the developments to date. For example, our Redback weapon system
and the 3 shot grenade launcher are all progressing well. We have a strong and very capable
engineering team aboard now and integrating all the elements of the technology has become
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more streamlined for us. We have moved forward a long way with the technology in recent
times. Ignition systems, fire control systems and munitions have all advanced markedly just in
the last 18 months and those elements will all be integrated into the products we have selected
to bring to market in the short-term.

AAG: Can you tell me a bit more about the Redback weapons system? As I understand
things, this is one of the more interesting applications for the Metal Storm technology
Schatz: Redback (named after a very small but
very deadly Australian spider) is a compact,
lightweight,
high-speed,
remotely
operated
weapons pod designed to be capable of hitting 3
targets with 40mm grenade munitions in under 1.2
seconds. Redback is capable of being mounted on a
variety of static and mobile platforms including
aircraft. Redback is a joint effort between Metal
Storm and Electro Optic Systems (EOS) who have
combat-proven systems in service with the US
military under the CROWS program which has
been very successful in Iraq and other places.
AAG: Now many of your current designs appear
to integrate the Metal Storm technology into rather
conventional packages, but given the number and
scope of advances that you've made to firearms
technology, do you believe that as Metal Storm
evolves it may begin to change the shape of the
weapon altogether? Will the assault-rifle of today
disappear to be replaced with something that may
appear almost unrecognizable to us at present?

Redback: A compact, lightweight, remotely

operated weapon firing 40-mm grenades.

Schatz: While that might be a possibility, and the capability to do that is ever present, its
hard to change perceptions as to what a weapon should look and feel like. For the near term, as
we progress, we prefer to keep the fit, form and function recognizable so as not to have to try to
educate a new generation of end users to a totally new concept in look and feel. Once we have
made substantial inroads into a market, we can then afford the time and energy to experiment
with new look weapons, but only if they provide beneficial capability to soldiers.

AAG:

Right now the Metal Storm technology & primary claim is the firing rate -- over a
million rounds a minute for some models, as I recall. However, for many applications, especially
those served by conventional assault rifles, the high-rate may not be required. What are some of
the other key selling points for this technology?

Schatz:

That is a major misconception regarding Metal Storm. While initially the high
firing rate was a differentiator, and caught ones attention, the true primary claim is the fact that
we can fire at any rate that we select, and firing rates must be recognized as just that, rates of
fire: not rounds fired. Its like driving at 100mph; you dont necessarily travel 100 miles of
distance. The real advantage is the terminal effect benefit that a particular rate of fire delivers.
For example 10 rounds delivered at a high rate of fire will arrive on target at almost the same
time like a swarm of bees and the effect can be very powerful compared with conventional

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delivery. This is where Metal Storms selectable rates of fire and selectable munitions provide a
capability advantage.

AAG: Now in terms of firing rate, the part that scares me is ammunition expenditure. I've
heard that the reason the modern M-16 is limited to 3-round bursts is to reduce the necessity for
logistics to carry ammunition across hostile terrain to resupply the troops. Will this high firing
rate put an additional burden on logistical support to supply more ammunition, and does the
profile of your magazines & cartridges perhaps allow a soldier to carry more ammunition with
him because of the smaller magazine sizes?
Schatz: It is a myth to suggest that Metal Storm requires additional munitions to
conventional systems. We can control the rate of fire very accurately with the fire control
computer so that ammunition is used in the most optimal fashion for the task at hand. The
improvement in capability comes from how you fire the munitions, not the quantity fired.
Logistically the requirement should not change. Reload is also available in either a multi-shot
cartridge or as a single round load/unload capability. This allows a firer to top up during a lull
in a firefight just the same as a comparable conventional weapon.
AAG:

Another question that haunts me about

the Metal Storm technology is how you deal with
heat-dissipation from the barrel during firing. After
all, my understanding is the rotating barrel of the
mini-gun serves primary to give the barrels a
chance to cool in between rounds, but with the
Metal Storm technology, not only are all your
barrels presumably firing, but they're also firing at
a much faster rate. Any thoughts on keeping the
barrels cool?

Schatz:

It is simply not an issue at all. The

reason for this is because the rounds are stacked in
the barrel, the firing point moves down the barrel
as each round is fired, so the heat and pressure is
not concentrated in one place In a conventional
weapon the firing point is in the chamber for every
round and heat build up can be significant. That
difficulty does not apply to Metal Storms
technology where the ignition point changes for
each round. The weapons remain quite cool even
during intense or rapid fire scenarios.

ADWS Control: A computer-controlled firing

system for the Area Denial Weapon System.

AAG:

I guess the other barrel-related question is about what happens to misfires. The
Discovery special indicated that if a round fails to fire, it does block the barrel, but that it can be
easily ejected by simply firing the next round behind it, giving it a push out the front. However,
can't this lead to overpressure in the barrel, increasing the possibility of a barrel rupture in the
process?

Schatz: We have fired numerous rounds to purposely simulate a misfire.

When a round is
determined not to have been fired, the system can automatically shut down the firing sequence
of that barrel. Thats the beauty of the Metal Storm system, with multiple barrels, the shutting
down of a single barrel still allows the weapon to be effective in battle. The safe option is to

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close the particular barrel down or simply change the munition cartridge. In an operational
scenario where a soldiers life depended on the weapon firing, he can fire the follow on round to
clear the barrel. Compared to a conventional weapon this option may be a life saver.

AAG: In my view, one of the big-breakthroughs

with the Metal Storm technology is the electronic
ignition for your ammunition, which seems like a
great way to bring firearms into the 21st century by
allowing a more effective integration with
computer-driven systems. I think that you've
already started to capitalize on this with the
remote-sentry gun pods, and I'm wondering how
you see this marriage of computers & electronic
firing systems evolving over time.
Schatz: The more we develop the technology,
the more sophisticated and educated we become
with the electronic ignition, materials research,
battery capacity (although a minor aspect of the
technology as power requirements for firing are
minimal) and the use of newer and smaller
electronic components, the better we are able to
package weapons into existing and future systems.
We feel that we are a natural fit to the electronic
battlefield. Our systems lend themselves well to
networked command, control and communications
systems. By using these capabilities the battlefield
of the future becomes even more inviting to our
technology and capabilities.

UGV: This tracked prototype has a 4-barrel,

40mm Metal Storm grenade launcher.

AAG: For the smaller handheld weapons, do you see computer systems & electronic firing
control taking over tasks like calculating for windage that the soldier currently does using
calibration settings on the sights? What about the notion of "smart rounds" to let the soldier
select different types of ammunition automatically depending on the target the gun is pointed
at? Any future notions in this area?
Schatz:

The technologies to provide a soldier with all the capabilities you mention are all
available. They are all a capability trade off in terms of weight and cost. Its not that it cant be
done, its more about what countries and militaries can afford. Programmable fusing will work
beautifully with Metal Storm systems however they are expensive and many countries are not
willing to fund this capability at the expense of not having other capabilities.

AAG:

The Metal Storm videos page features a number of demonstrations involving

remotely-piloted tank-like vehicles outfitted with Metal Storm technologies firing everything
from small-caliber ammunition all the way up to what appears to be tank-rounds. Can you tell
us a bit about how & why you've built RPV's with this capability?

Schatz:

Metal Storm builds weapon systems and the demonstration footage you refer to
shows a UGV which was provided by another company. What Metal Storm provides is a weapon
which is light, very capable offensively, and which does not require manual assistance to
undertake the mission. Conventional weapons require complex servos systems to operate the

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trigger and also manual reloading and support in case of jamming. Metal Storm weapons
overcome all those obstacles which make them ideally suited for most unmanned robotic
platforms including UGVs and UAVs. The integration of Metal Storm technology onto robotic or
unmanned platforms is quite straightforward. Conventional weapons simply do not offer the
same level of combined simplicity and capability for unmanned platforms.

AAG: Another interesting application is the Area Denial System, which appears to be almost
like an automated, high rate of fire mortar or grenade launcher capable of being controlled
remotely and stationed to completely saturate an area with explosive fire if an enemy enters a
given perimeter. Does this application finally give back to our ground forces a suppressive-fire
capability currently dominated by air-power?

Schatz: Air power provides a greater range (distance) of coverage/engagement that a fixed
site emplacement. However, for an area denial or fixed site protective system, the combination
of capabilities that Metal Storm affords, along with the all weather nature of the weapon, and
the centrally controlled and monitored capability of the networked solution provide obvious
advantages over other systems.

AAG: On the subject of air-power, my impression has been that while a few vehicles like the
Fairchild A-10 use high-rate chainguns for ground support roles, the majority of air-combat
these days takes place using expensive missiles. As I recall, this worrisome reliance on missiles
was even mentioned in the 1986 movie "Top Gun", and I'm wondering if the expanded
capabilities of the Metal Storm system may serve to reverse this trend for air-combat?

Schatz: It depends on whether we are referring to air to ground combat or air to air
combat. In the future, air to ground may allow for a response with a high explosive warhead
fired from a Metal Storm weapon to be
employed from distances with extreme
accuracy. The air to air scenario is rarely
used in todays modern warfare using
bullets, with missiles being the preferred
method of engagement. For those few
instances where the bullet engagement is
employed, we do not foresee a Metal Storm
solution as being a viable option. We are
still focusing on the 40mm range of
weapons for earliest deployment. We are
currently delivering low velocity systems
however we are commencing high velocity
development which will provide a much
greater range for our systems. We expect
Metal Storm systems to be very capable in
defense against the ever increasing number
Gun Pods: This Metal Storm concept weapon is
of UAVs on the battlefield.
designed to lay down a powerful suppressing fire.
AAG:

Speaking of ground support, the chaingun on the Fairchild A-10 is one of the really
unique features of that aircraft, but I'm guessing that it's far too heavy for most modern aircraft
to carry. For ground support roles, does the Metal Storm technology potentially offer the
opportunity for any aircraft to lay down the massive suppressing firepower previously reversed
only for a specialty aircraft like the A-10 aircraft?

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Schatz: In light of the former response, you must also take into account the laws of physics
and ballistics. Metal Storm does not change these laws, and while accuracy, velocity and recoil
are functions of these laws, Metal Storm does not violate them. In other words, with massive
fire power comes massive recoil, and airframe limitations must also be considered. Rates of
fire high enough to exceed that of conventional weapons must be weighed against flight
characteristics, aerodynamic effects and structural limitations of the airframe in question.

AAG: On another note, in terms of cost effectiveness, would be it optimistic to hope that the
benefits of the Metal Storm technology may also give new life to older ground-assault vehicles
that might otherwise be considered an antiquated part of our arsenal, perhaps saving us from
having to replace them?
Schatz: Those are questions to be answered by operational commanders and logisticians
who will weigh benefits against costs. If upgrading the effectiveness of a weapon system
employed on an outdated vehicle has a benefit, when weighed against the overall costs, fuel
efficiency and maintenance/modification costs makes sense, it is a decision that can be debated
on a case by case basis. The benefit of a Metal Storm system in scenarios like you suggest is
more the support we can give to legacy systems. For example, a small multi barrel 40mm
system supporting a 50 cal weapon is possible
or even a small multi barrel pod of mixed
munitions supporting a conventional grenade
launcher to provide additional and immediate
munition options.
AAG: I'd also like to touch on a safety
concern: since the Metal Storm technology
relies entirely on an electronic ignition system
for each round it fires, does that provide you
with the ability to deploy a safety system into
these weapons allowing a remote-system
lockout in the event that they're captured by the
enemy during battle?

ADWS: The four long barrels on the Area Denial

Weapon System before a live-fire demonstration.

Schatz:

The benefit of an electronic system is that you can control it and add any feature
that benefits the user. The ability to safe or to self destruct in a given circumstance are all
options available from electronic systems and will fit easily with our systems.

AAG:

Speaking of safety, could this same concept of remote-lockout also be implemented

with some kind of IFF transponder tag on troops and ground-support units to effectively prevent
friendly-fire casualties during the heat of battle?

Schatz:

Electronics provide developers and end users with a choice of options and the
scenario you have outlined is achievable. While technology can assist in preventing friendly fire
casualties, battle is a fluid and complex set of circumstances and there is always a human
element to contend with in the heat of battle. In the end it will be commanders employing rules
of engagement and orders for opening fire, that integrate with the benefits of our technology.

AAG:

Have you had any troubles with activists protesting the Metal Storm technology, and
how would you respond to activist groups worried about the very effectiveness that makes this
technology so appealing to the military?

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Schatz: We are just like any other business in the defense and weapon industry. Our
efforts are about providing quality technology to assist our own defense force and those of our
allies.
AAG: Now in terms of military acceptance for this technology, have you had a good response
from the defense-department so far, and do you foresee the Metal Storm technology becoming a
ubiquitous component in the United States arsenal in the future?

Schatz: We are in a transition state now from research and development to demonstrations
and production readiness. This year sees us on a significant development path for a number of
our products leading to demonstration opportunities in the US, Australia and Singapore
commencing in 2007. The capability advantages of
our published Redback weapon system are
significant and it offers all the Metal Storm core
technology advantages in the one system. Our 3
shot grenade launcher is designed to fit as an under
slung module on a combat rifle however its primary
advantage is that it provides semi-automatic fire,
which allows the firer to maintain eye contact with
the target, a key feature which the M203 and
equivalent systems do not offer. It is almost 40
years since the M79 was phased out of service
however little progress has been made to automate
a modular 40mm grenade launcher for use by
grenadiers at squad and platoon level. Our 3 shot
grenade launcher is very much about achieving that
breakthrough. Our US contracts are also
progressing on similar timeframes and we are
excited at the prospects they offer going forward.

AAG:

Is the Metal Storm technology the final

step in conventional projectile technology? The
design is so revolutionary that it's hard to imagine
anything displacing it, and I wonder if that factor
Extreme Ballistics: Is Metal Storm the next
may not actually push future efforts into more
step in 21st-century weapons technology?
exotic technologies like beam weapons instead of
more refinements to competitive projectile-firing platforms?

Schatz: You are now entering an entirely different realm from what we would call
conventional weapons and into the future of directed energy weapons, rail guns and the like.
Metal Storm technology is a major ballistic leap in terms of how munitions are fired, however we
are very grounded about applying the technology to benefit todays warfighters. In the end, its
all about cost, weight and effectiveness and meeting capability requirements that suit the ever
changing operational scenarios on the battlefield. Its likely that urban operations will dominate
the battlespace over the next decade or more and Metal Storm is very well suited to that style of
operation.
Arthur Schatz is the Vice President of Business Development for Metal Storm USA, a US subsidiary
of Metal Storm Limited, located in Brisbane, Australia. For more information, visit Metal Storm
online at: http://www.metalstorm.com or email Art directly at: aschatz@metalstormusa.com

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