EXCLUSIVE!

The President Jonathan

Interview: How I felt when OBJ tore
his PDP card
Sunday, February 22, 2015
President Goodluck Jonathan speaks
with EDWARD DICKSON, DEBO ABDULAI,
SINA OLADEINDE, LASISI OLAGUNJU and
TAIWO ADISA at the State House,
Marina, Lagos, on Thursday on
burning national issues, his
relationship with Chief Olusegun
Obasanjo, Boko Haram and the 2015
general election.

advertisement

MR President, in recent months,

there have been several scathing
statements and remarks from former
President Olusegun Obasanjo against
your candidature in this forthcoming
election and there have been so much
scathing criticism of you on the fact
that you agreed that you will just
spend one term in office. Also some
days back, he alerted Nigerians to a
grand plot whether by people acting
on your behalf or you also working in
concert with them to foist the
Gbagbo option on Nigeria. How do
you react to this. What exactly is the
problem between you and former
President Obasanjo?
Thank you. First and foremost, Obasanjo is
a father to me. By divine providence and
the Grace of God I am the President of
Nigeria today. It is not by my strength. But
God uses human beings to actualise His
own blessings on human beings. And He
used so many Nigerians, including former
President Obasanjo to play one role or the
other for me. I became the deputy
governor of a state, became the governor,
the vice-president and president. I have no
issues with him and I really don't want to
join issues with President Obasanjo. I think

<a target="_blank"
href="https://adclick.g.doubleclick.net/
pcs/click?
xai=AKAOjstSpkKHYoo8iOqkbSI92vBlRP
2nsttUeQaRUnnb5Dz9BPISaibwKcat1wb
8CFJ42aVffhwZbZQpx3bFaGKatRlEr39hvtrJB_LrHUdh6mxCjbatnREOSBmvU2mA
P38dg&sig=Cg0ArKJSzC3oVmWsFi8EAE&adurl=http://imp.bid.ace.advertis
ing.com/click/site%3D899532/mnum
%3D1944462/cstr
%3D5262290%3D_54eb3ea9_6853260
045_899532*1944462*80*0_1_/xsxdata
%3D/imptid
%3DAS395750ee158c4a1d90013e806a
8fb73b/bnum%3D5262290/optn
%3D64%3Ftrg
%3Dhttp://analytics.bluekai.com/site/15
991%253Fphint%253Devent

it is not necessary. But I will use this opportunity, because you asked, to just plead
with my father that he is a leader, a former president of the country. He has led the
country more than anybody; eight years of democratic governance and almost four
years of military governance. No other person has that kind of record. The stability
of this country is critical in terms of the economy of this country. Rating agencies
downgrade countries that are going into elections, because the feeling is that there
would be crisis. When you paint the colour of instability for your own nation, you are
doing so much injustice to the country, because it affects the economy of the
country, not just in terms of security and social issues alone. It affects the economy
directly. So, I plead with very senior citizens to remember that Nigeria is dear to us.
We don't have any other country than Nigeria. So actions and inaction or utterances
should be guarded so that we don't expose our country to the International
community as if it is a country in danger and one that is about to collapse. You are
frightening the investors, especially those who invest their cash, who may begin to
pull out their money from the country and that would affect the stock market and it
would affect the economy.
For one reason or the other, former President Obasanjo may disagree with me as his
first political son; you can even disagree with your own biological children as a
human being, let alone disagreeing with your political children. So he can agree or
disagree with me, but the utterances have to be managed in a way that they do not
affect the economy of this country and the security of this country.
Comparing me with Gbagbo is quite unfortunate, because I spearheaded the push
by other African countries to fight Gbagbo. Then I was Chairman, Heads of States
and Governments of ECOWAS and I knew some of my colleagues were a bit worried
about the fate of citizens of their countries in Cote D'Ivoire. But I said no, the right
thing must be done.
Let me assure you again, because you asked, that we will conduct this election as
scheduled by INEC and a president will be inaugurated. There is no reason for
anybody to insinuate that I want to frustrate elections. So that I would stay for how
long? Will I stay forever? Am I a military head of state? You and I know that in the
Nigerian Constitution, there is no provision for a president to stay beyond four years
once you are elected. So if I stay without conducting election after May 29, what
would happen? An illegal president? There is no basis for it. There is not just any
basis for it and it's quite unfortunate.
How hurt were you when former President Obasanjo tore his PDP card on
national television?
I don't feel any difference, because the bullets have been coming over and over for
a very long time. So you see, it gets to a situation you become hardened. That is
why even in those days when corporal punishment was in vogue, parents were
advised not to be flogging their children for all flimsy excuses. If you have children
you shout at over smallest things they do, then your shouting at some points will
become meaningless; even when they have not really done anything wrong, you
shout, they would just say Daddy or Mummy has started again. They will not feel
guilty again, because they don't know the difference between when they have done

wrong and when they have not done anything wrong. They just feel that Daddy or
Mummy is always shouting.
When you are making comments, they must be targeted at events. But when they
become serial, or a daily affair, then they are no longer relevant; then they are no
longer helping anybody.
There is this advert running on TV in which it was claimed that you signed
a one-term pact with PDP elders. The clip showed ex-president Obasanjo
reading an agreement that you signed. Did you actually sign a one-term
pact?
I did not sign any document with anybody and I am not someone who signs
documents carelessly. I don't even make promises to people. I am not somebody
who, if you want to work for me, for example, will promise to make you a minister.
Some persons can promise three people they will make them ministers. They can
promise another three they will be Secretary to Government, another four persons
Chief of Staff and promise another 10 the Minister of Petroleum slot. Some people
do that to recruit people. But I don't do that. I don't believe in it. I have never
signed a pact of one term. I never even mentioned it anywhere that I will do one
term. Yes, former President Obasanjo spoke that way, I think the day of our
primaries, and he used that to market me and I listened and I kept quiet. It was not
proper for me to go there and counter Obasanjo, because I wanted the ticket. I felt
that he spoke like an elder statesman and I left it like that.
I think people are misquoting me and I always say that people should play the
whole statement that I made in Addis Ababa. Then, I had been elected president.
But I told Nigerians in Addis Ababa, when I was addressing them, that I have looked
at it that the money Nigeria spends every year on election is enormous, for
candidates and INEC. I know what it takes on the side of government to conduct
elections; there is the security aspect of the election people don't even know. Right
now, our eyes are red on how to get enough money to meet up the needs of
security, especially when you see the way people are behaving and intimidating
others and so on. There are some kinds of red spots. So I feel that the nation will
benefit more if we have single tenure of seven years for elective position.
When I was Vice-President when the late Yar'Adua came up with the political
reforms, I headed the committee where the whole political parties came together to
submit memoranda. We advocated a single tenure of seven years. That time, we
also agreed that a single tenure would be more productive than double tenure of
eight years. Because the president would be focused; he would not be distracted.
This four-year tenure, if you are completely new, it takes you almost a year to
adjust. Then you work for two years. The next year, you waste on elections. The
country is losing.
But if we have a single tenure of seven years, yes somebody who is not good may
not make the difference, but some people would want to make names. People like
me will want to make a name and concentrate on governance issues. By the time
you adjust, you have like six years to concentrate on governance. I know what we

have done within this space of time. If we have an opportunity to probably add two
stable years to that, and you happily walk away, this country will develop more and
the tension we are witnessing today will not be there. People say this election is an
ill wind that is coming to this country. If the left wins, there could be crisis. If the
right wins, there could be crisis and people are painting all sorts of scenarios. I
advocated a single term of seven years. Then I added something that people are
misquoting now. I said that I had won the election then. I used one year to complete
Yar'Adua's tenure and I had won election for four years. I said if Nigerians agreed to
a single term of seven years, it would not be proper for me to contest. That would
mean if I win, I would serve as president for 12 years. I said that people would
question that. Why do you want to serve 12 years and incoming presidents would
serve seven years? Morally, I cannot defend that. So, if the country agrees to a
single tenure of seven years, then I will not contest. I would rather not contest so
that Nigerians would know it's because of my sacrifice, because it is something I
believe in. I also believe that the interest of the country is more important to me
than my individual interest. And I said five years is okay, and that even if I stay here
for 100 years, if I won't work, I won't work; that five years is okay, if the country
agrees to a seven-year single tenure. I believe it will bring stability, the struggle for
power, especially at the presidential level, would be less, and the country will spend
less money, because what you spend every four years, you spend every seven
years. That means in 14 years, you will spend what you currently spend every eight
years. Everything would be better for this country. That was my argument.
They now took off that tape and remove that area where I said if the country agrees
to seven years single tenure that I will not contest. They removed that and they are
just spreading the aspect where I said I won't contest.
There is so much propaganda and falsehood that has come to play in our body
politics. This is very unfortunate. But like in the game of football, if the referee is not
good enough, you can use your hand to score a goal and they would count it for
you. That is what is happening on the field and it is quite unfortunate. But we will
also not allow that.
Mr President, with all these situations you have painted about the
country, what you call the propaganda which has tried to rubbish the
efforts of government and even the insurgency in a part of the country,
why do you want another term sir?
If you listen to one of these Reggae artistes, I think it is Bob Marley, he said if you
fight and run away, you live to fight another day. War is politics, even international
politics. If you see intimidation and you say because of that you run, then you don't
mean well for your people. I was very reluctant to get involved in politics as Deputy
Governor, but that is a story for another day. When I was approached I said I was
not prepared to run for elective office. I was still working as Assistant Director at
OMPADEC then, and I said I was not ready but I was persuaded and the day I
decided to go into politics, I said okay, I am going in fully. So I have come in fully, at
whatever cost. So if I am convinced that what I am doing is right, I will not just
surrender because of intimidation.

I believe this government is doing well; I believe probably because we failed to

advertise what we are doing, the opposition is cashing in on this and trying to
becloud the judgement of the people.
Only today [Thursday] I commissioned four naval ships and the Chief of Naval Staff
said this is the first time in the history of the country that four naval ships would be
commissioned in a day. He said that the last time we did something close to that
was when Shagari was president; he commissioned three at the same time. And
these are not the only ones we have commissioned. I was here sometimes in 2012;
we commissioned Andoni, and some other ones we bought through the Americans
also. So this is not the only Naval platforms we have commissioned. It is historic
that this is the first time the Navy would commission four at the same time.
But people are telling Nigerians that we have not done anything. Even in the Army, I
am quite happy now. Yes, there are people sneaking into places to detonate
explosives, to kill people, but in terms of the war area, in Borno, Yobe and
Adamawa, the idea of Boko Haram pursuing our soldiers is no longer there.
Aggressively, we are taking back out territories, because we have acquired quite a
number of Army platforms and weapons that we were looking for. So we have
equipped the Army much better than it used to be. We have equipped the Air Force
much better than it used to be and we have equipped the Navy much better than it
used to be.
You know of our Agriculture programme. Will I stop the programme that is helping
so many Nigerians because somebody is blackmailing us, or because somebody is
busy intimidating people?
I was surprised last night when the owner of Chisco, the company that runs
transport business between Lagos and the South-East, told me that 18 of his luxury
buses were burnt down in Lagos by youths of a rival political party because my
billboard was close to his facility. Is it proper? Is that the kind of people that want to
take over the running of this country? Is this country going to be managed by
people with that kind of background? And will I be intimidated when I mean well for
Nigeria?
I feel that things must be done properly. And we are improving on all fronts.
Take the road infrastructure, when I took over, only about five, six thousand
kilometers of roads were motorable. I mean roads owned by the Federal
Government. Of course, you know that most of the major roads across the country
are Federal Roads. Now we have added 20,000 kilometers of motorable roads. At
least, now we can say we have about 25,000 kilometres of motorable roads in the
country. And I believe that in the next four years, we will be able to complete the
remaining 10,000kms and open new arteries.
Are you saying I should chicken out because some people are telling lies about the
government?
I have given freedom to Nigerians. Before now, Nigerians don't talk about voters'
cards. It is from 2011 that we brought that awareness, that a voter card owned by

Nigerians must be the potent tool to be used and Nigerians must decide who
governs them at all levels. And we tried to stop the old ways of manipulating and
rigging elections at all levels, so that Nigerians become relevant in the voting
process. But the way some people are saying it, it is as if they created it. Before
2011, who cared about voters' cards? You go to a community, one big man has
carried away the voters' cards and other people would go about their businesses.
So many senior citizens told me that they never rested until 2011. So we have
reformed the electoral process and freed Nigerians. We have now given Nigerians
the power to decide who governs them and you want to say I should chicken out so
that we go back to the old ways?
Look at the freedom Nigerians enjoy. You abuse the President and I smile. In some
countries, you abuse the President, they deal with you. In so many countries,
including African countries, you cannot abuse the President and go to sleep with
your two eyes closed. It is only in Nigeria that you can do that.
Well, but some people will say that your inaction in such instance is a sign
of weakness
Well, people are abusing it. But sometimes if you want to move, the same people
who say it is a weakness will come and beg and say Mr President, please, leave
them. It is like this story of a man riding a horse with his son. If the two of them
climb the horse, people will abuse them, 'why should the two of you climb a horse.
Do you want to break the back of the horse? This man is a foolish man.'
Then the man would say let him ride the horse; let the boy trek and they would say,
this man is a foolish man. He is the old man; the boy should be on the horse and he
should trek. When the man carries the boy on top of the horse and they would say,
which kind of man is this?
So, however you put it, people will have something to say.
But one thing people clamour for globally is freedom. The whole essence of
democracy is freedom. If you have a democratic environment and people are not
free, then it is pseudo-democracy and that is why I frown on intimidation.
If Jonathan is bad and PDP made a mistake to present Jonathan, the duty of a rival
political party is to bring a credible candidate whose credentials are okay, that it can
market freely and can beat Jonathan any day, any where. And the electorate will
decide. It is not by going to intimidate people. It is not by abusing Jonathan.
Jonathan is not claiming that he is the best person in Nigeria. No, never. I used to
say that even in the University, I made a Second Class Upper. I didn't make a First
Class, but there are so many First Class graduates in this country. I don't have the
best brain. I didn't study a prestigious course. I am not a lawyer or a doctor; I am
not an engineer. So I cannot say I am the best. But if Jonathan must be changed, get
a better material that you don't need to intimidate people or tell lies to market. I
have not seen anybody that has been presented among the 14 presidential
candidates that can run the country better than me. If I have seen any, I would say
yes. So if Jonathan is bad, give Nigerians a better alternative. It is not by

blackmailing Jonathan. It is not by abusing people. That is no longer democracy. If

we are practising democracy, then there must be freedom of choice, freedom of
speech. If you take these ingredients out of any government, then it is not
democracy it is pseudo-democracy, false democracy.
I am coming from a background of a government that stood by the rule of law. I
came as vice-president to the late Yar'Adua who advocated the rule of law and I
agreed. I cannot now say that since Yar'Adua is late, I would no longer believe in
that philosophy of the rule of law. It is easy if you write something against me for
me to ask my security agents to come and arrest you and throw you into a dungeon
for 24 hours, so that you know that there is government. Yes, one can do it. But is
that what you use power for?
Yes, if you write something we feel you should not have written we can caution you
or take you before the law court, but we should not lock you up for one week in an
underground dungeon.
It is costly, yes. I am the one receiving the flaks. But you need that for you to move
the country forward. Nigeria is a country with a high degree of diversity in terms of
language groups, in terms of tribal groups and in terms of religious groups. Within
the two major religions, Christianity and Islam, you have major sects and all that. So
when you are managing that kind of a country, when you are practising true
democracy, you may be perceived as a weak person. But I told Nigerians the issue
is not whether Jonathan is weak or not, the issue is that within these five years,
including the one year I used to complete Yar'Adua's tenure and the four years of
my first tenure, what have I put on the table?
I used to tell people that human memories are short. In 2012, we experienced the
biggest flood in this country. The biggest flood I witnessed was in 1969; that was the
year I wrote my primary six examinations. It was before the Kainji Dam was
completed. Since the completion of Kainji Dam, there was no such flood again. In
my community, even in the place where I built my house, in those days, nobody
would have built a house there, but since that time [1969] there was no flood again.
In the 2012 flood in my compound that was sand-filled before the building, if you
stand on the floor nobody would see your head. That was the extent of the flood.
People thought we would have food crisis, we never had. That didn't come by
chance. Because of the fall in oil prices, in a number of countries that depend on oil
like we do, people are queuing up for essential commodities. Here, even though the
value of the Naira has gone down, because of the drop in oil prices, food prices are
relatively stable. These things don't come by chance. By now we would have been
queuing up to buy bread. And people would have been angrier with government.
Because of our agric programme, we are producing much of our food requirements.
We have been assisting farmers and encouraging them in various ways. Fertilizers
are getting to the farmers; other agro input are getting to the farmers; real
seedlings getting to the farmers; lots of financial assistance. These things don't
happen by chance. We mean well for this country. So I can't succumb to any
intimidation. It would be a failure on my own part. If you have something to offer
your country, you will want to do it.

You said that none of the presidential candidates can do better than you
in running this country. I am sure that includes General Buhari, your main
challenger. How do you rate General Buhari?
I said that none of the candidates from their history, from what we know, can do
better than me in terms of governing this country. General Buhari has governed this
country before for 18 months. It would not be fair for me to comment on one
individual, especially the number one contender. So, I will not want to rate him. But
what I will like to say is that out of the 14 presidential candidates, none of them can
do better than me in terms of running this country and I have listened to
statements, speeches, interviews and I have not seen any of them offering
anything new.
I have not seen any of them saying that in agriculture, this is what the present
government is doing, I want to do it this way. I want to do things this way and it is a
better option. I have not heard any of them saying anything about Railways. Railway
was dead in this country for over 30 years; I remember in those days when Buhari
was Head of State, I was doing my Master's degree programme and there was this
screaming headline in one of the national dailies, 'weeds overtake Rail lines!' That
was what we got.
But now we have rehabilitated 90 per cent of this old narrow gauge and we are
adding the standard ones. Even in the power sector, we have not reached where
we want to go but you can see the progress we are making. Be it in education or
aviation, name it, I have not seen any new idea from my opponents.
A lot of people have been presidents in this country before I came. I came on board
and some states have degree-awarding institutions while 12 states had no degreeawarding institutions. I did not create those states but I felt it was not good. I
opened 12 universities in the 12 states that had no federal universities, in addition
to the one specialising in Maritime studies, the Maritime University, because we
have the longest coastline. Apart from the Maritime Institution in Oron in Akwa Ibom
State, we don't really have an institution that can train the highest level of
manpower in the maritime sector. So, we said we must have a university to take
care of that.
Look at primary and secondary education. By our laws, it is not the responsibility of
Federal Government, but I looked at the North, the rate of school dropouts is so high
that some states had as high as 70 per cent. Some states had 40 to 50 per cent,
some 30-something per cent while the rate in the South was about two per cent.
The average in the North was about 35 per cent; that is from primary to the first
three years of secondary school education. So, I said the Federal Government must
assist. And there is no state we have not built at least five schools to assist. I also
built the Almajiri schools, primary schools to assist the downtrodden, the children
that are underprivileged, whose parents cannot cater for them. Nobody has done
that before.
You said that none of the other presidential candidates has better ideas
on governance than you. But General Buhari has been campaigning on two

major fronts. He said he can fight insurgency better and he will fight
corruption. How would you react to those two points he has been using to
campaign?
You see, I laugh when I hear these things. To us Nigerians, the word corruption is
very painful. When you tell Nigerians you want to fight corruption, people will be
happy. It is like a dummy that you can use to deceive people. I don't know how old
you were when General Buhari was Head of State. He used the same corruptionfighting ploy to chase the politicians away. He said this country was too corrupt; he
was going to deal with them and he took over. Some people were given 300 years
imprisonment, 200 years imprisonment. But did that stop corruption? Even the
report of Transparency International that has been analysing corruption from that
time till date has not exonerated that government. And for 18 months, the country
was going down; people were queuing up to buy essential commodities. I was doing
my Master's degree then as I said earlier. Some nights, I couldn't even read,
because I had to go and queue up to buy one tin of milk and one packet of sugar. If
you didn't queue up overnight, the items won't get to you when they open the
warehouse in the morning. By the time they open the store by 8 a.m., the items
would have finished before it gets to your turn. So if he had defeated that
corruption then, it won't be with us today.
To me, if somebody says he wants to fight corruption, you must tell me how you
intend to fight corruption. Look at what we have done in the Agric sector. We
stopped fertiliser corruption. We are going to make that cut across all sectors. The
next sector we are going to is petroleum. That is a sector many people have raised
all kinds of issues. We are doing quite a number of things in that sector, which I will
not say because if you say it a number of people benefitting from the slease could
create all kinds of scenarios and block it. If you take the Agric sector, for instance,
the first thing a Minister of Agriculture would ask from the President is money to buy
fertilisers. And at the end of the day, the fertilisers and agro inputs would not get to
the farmers. Less than 10 per cent get to the farmers. We have cleaned up all that,
using the electronic wallet. The corruption in that sector is gone. Look at the payroll
system, in December where some departments of government couldn't receive
salaries. It was because people started to divert the money meant for salaries to
pay other allowances and the system shut them off. So we are building a system
that, even if a person wants to steal, he will not be able to steal. First, you must
prevent stealing before you talk about enforcement. It is just like when you are in
the Customs and they tell you to prevent smuggling, you enforce it also. All over
the world, prevention is more potent than enforcement, because in enforcement,
there are lots of limitations, because of our legal system. We operate a legal system
that says it is better for nine criminals to get away with a crime than for one
innocent man to be punished. The concept of proving beyond reasonable doubt
comes in. How reasonable is that reasonable doubt.
So, if Buhari wants to reduce corruption, he will have to tell Nigerians how he plans
to do that.

General Buhari was Head of State in a military government and when they set up
tribunals, the tribunals did all it wanted to do, just like the one that ruled on the
death of Ken Saro Wiwa. But we are in a democratic setting, where you must obey
the law. Yes, you can disobey the law by locking up people for a very long time, but
people will go to court and the courts will tell you what you are doing is wrong. You
can only continue to disobey the law for as long as possible. Even on the question
of arresting and prosecuting people, we have done a lot. We have even arrested and
prosecuted more people than the previous governments. Maybe, you will go and
interview the chairman of EFCC. I used to tell him to talk to the press because the
tendency is for Nigerians to think we are not fighting corruption.
Ibrahim Lamorde was Director of Operations at the Economic and Financial Crimes
Commission (EFCC) under Mallam Nuhu Ribadu. When I came on board as vicepresident, Ribadu was removed, Lamorde was posted out and Farida was brought
in. When I took over, a number of people clamoured to bring Lamorde back,
especially from the international community, the people who trained him. They said
they have trained him very well and that if we brought him back he was going to do
well. So, luckily he had not been retired. I brought him back. And I told him the
whole world appears to believe in you, come and head EFCC. And he has been doing
well. But because some people want to bring Jonathan down, the good works of
Lamorde too must be brought down.
Don't you think that the lull in the fight against corruption is as a result of
the fact that during the administration of President Obasanjo we saw
more trials and the media was very well used. But this is not so at this
time. Would you also consider a change in strategy?
I agree with you that the media publicity helped to paint the picture that that
government was fighting corruption. Society behaves in a particular way. So, by the
time you arrest some people and show them on television, people are happy. If you
are somebody who will play to the gallery, that is what you will do and that is what
we don't want to encourage. So a government that wants to take the populist option
may not achieve much, but it would be celebrated.
Probably, we may have a kind of balance. We will not go to that extreme, because if
you suffer from that you will not want to encourage it. I was a governor in Bayelsa
State. I took over the governance of Bayelsa on the 12th December, 2005 when we
had crisis in the state. During that time, we had a bit of unstable governance in the
state and I was just paying salaries and I said contractors should wait. That lasted
till February 2006. And by that time we had accumulated about N25 billion debt but
the total income of the state was below N13 billion. In February as I arrived Abuja, I
saw a headline 'Bayelsa Gov in N50 billion whatever,' I said what is this? I have not
even awarded contracts. I started calling everywhere to make sure they correct the
false allegation. In those days, if you don't like a local government chairman, you
wrote an anonymous petition to EFCC and the EFFC would, chain him and show him
on television. At the end of the day when they got into the matter nothing came
out of it. Would you prefer such a situation? Those who arrested and disgraced you
would not even come and apologise to you. So it gave a false impression that

corruption was being fought but that extreme is not the best in the circumstance.
Probably, we must do a little of letting the media know what we are doing, but we
must select cases we are sure of. We do and not want to expose innocent people
and make innocent people look like ordinary thieves on television. Because the day
you announce that this person has stolen money, that impression is there forever.
And on the internet, whenever you search through Google, you get that story
despite the fact that that person was not even tried. So, there is no way the court
can say the man did not steal any money. When you investigate the case, you just
ask the man to go. No statement is issued to clear the man, that the man is not a
thief. But in the media system, especially these days of social media, whatever goes
in there is permanent.
So these are the issues. I believe we may begin to do things slightly differently, but
not to that extreme. The emphasis is that all these areas where we have leakages
have to be blocked so that nobody will steal money through payment of salaries.
Nobody will steal money through award of contracts. That is why we have the
Bureau of Public Procurement and, of course, this fertiliser issue. In fact, arms and
ammunition now are being procured from government to government. People say
oh, because the Army is corrupt or because the government is corrupt, that is why
we couldn't recover the Chibok girls. That is not so. Look at what is happening all
over the world. People underrate terrorism. Now, with what we are doing with arms
and ammunition, we are no longer procuring through direct contract. We are doing it
government to government, because most of these companies that manufacture
arms and ammunition have links with their home governments; these are not just
businesses you just operate without control. So, we are going through the states to
buy.
Despite the stories that America is not doing this or that, we are buying through the
states. So, by the time we get over this Boko Haram debacle, which certainly we will
get over, major procurements, would be through the governments so that this issue
of corruption would be reduced. Assuming that people were padding contracts, by
buying through the countries directly, you cannot do that. And that is what we are
doing in major sectors and even with our procurement at the Federal Government
level. If we are buying things, we buy directly from the manufacturers. We don't
approve the payment through contractors. Except some manufacturers who don't
sell directly, that have agents either for your country or the sub-region, we get
through those ones, so the prices are standard. Any addition would just be for
logistics and so on. So these are the areas we are using to reduce corruption. If
somebody tells you I will fight corruption, I have fought corruption before by
arresting somebody and jailing somebody for 300 years, such is a big lie. Were
those people really corrupt? Most of the people involved are South-Westerners that
you know very well. I don't want to mention names. Were they really corrupt people
that deserved 200 or 300 years jail terms?
Mr President, talking about elections, the INEC chairman, Professor
Attahiru Jega, was before the Senate and he refused to confirm that the
March 28 and April 11 dates for elections are sacrosanct, saying that it
was the military that could confirm. As the President and Commander-in-

Chief of the Armed Forces, do you assure Nigerians that those dates are
sacrosanct? And are you not worried that Jega continues to pass the buck?
I appointed Jega. If I make any statement on INEC either negatively or positively, it
will affect the whole process. As the sitting president, who appoints INEC leadership,
I must be mindful and I cannot be dragged into making statements or utterances
that are unguarded about a body set up by my government. INEC as an arm by
government, just like any other agency of government, might have its limitations;
that does not mean it has issues. As at that time, the military felt that we had
security challenges that we must properly handle, otherwise; the elections would be
inconclusive. Even outside core security areas, in a place like Lagos, only 38 per
cent of the registered voters had Permanent Voter Cards (PVCs). By global standard,
you will see that only 60 to 65 per cent of voters turn out to vote. So assuming that
38 per cent of Lagosians had PVCs; if 65 per cent of that 38 per cent turns out to
vote, you will have only 30 per cent of the electorate in Lagos electing people for
the public offices. If you write exams and you score 30 per cent; that is a failure. So,
will you describe that kind of election where 30 per cent voted as a credible
election? INEC had some issues; issues of PVCs, issues of card readers and all sorts.
But then, the security people had their own issues. You and I may not know what
they know; they run intelligent services and they also know the thinking of this evil
group called Boko Haram. Of course, you know that Gombe was attacked on 14th of
February, which was supposed to be the day of the Presidential and National
Assembly elections and I called the governor after we were able to repel the attack.
He said when the insurgents came into the city they were chanting anti-election
sentiments, which means that their real purpose of coming was to disrupt the
elections.
I want to believe they were living somewhere in the forest and didn't know that
elections were no longer holding; I also believe other groups would have gone to
places like Bauchi, Damaturu and so on, and maybe those ones knew about the
postponement. Therefore, when the military said that for security reasons, the
election should be postponed, I expect Nigerians to know that, at least, these were
serious people who had intelligence at their disposal; that it is because the military
has been working that they can sleep. So, some of the statements made about the
military are quite unfortunate, very unfortunate. But I am quite pleased with the
progress we have made within this period; and my conviction is that in two to three
weeks time, what will happen in the North will make all Nigerians happy that the
military made that suggestion and that, at least, INEC listened to them. I believe
Boko Haram will be depleted to the level that even if we don't rout them out
completely, we would have overpowered them and reclaimed our territories. You
cannot claim that you have won a war against terrorism just like you cannot claim to
have won a war against stealing; even in the house, someone can hide and take
something. But we may be able to take over many of our territories, if not all, so
that the insurgents will not have that kind of strength to come in their numbers to
disrupt elections across so many states that will affect the overall result of maybe
the presidential election. At least, the military will be able to do that. So, I am
convinced that we will conduct the elections as scheduled.

You cannot blame the INEC chairman; it will be difficult and improper for him to say,
'yes, elections must hold.' He has to be careful, because he is not the Chief of
Defence Staff or the Commander-in-Chief. I can say that and defend it, because I
have the information about security that does not go to him. So, don't blame him;
he will be a bit careful. He will tell you that he is ready but he does not control all
the aspects of the election; he does not control the security aspect.
So, there is hope for March 28 Sir?
Yes, of course. Those of you here, I hope you have your voter cards, because my
commitment is that all Nigerians must vote. And I feel sad when people say that
only this percentage has collected PVCs, and it sometimes makes me get angry,
because I feel that we cannot practise democracy well if people who want to vote
are prevented from voting. If you register and you get card and on that day you feel
like not going to vote, it is your right. There is nowhere in the world that 100 per
cent of resident voters vote, but the decision to vote or not should be that of the
individual. Nobody should be prevented from voting. Those willing and active voters
should be able to vote and I want a situation whereby 100 per cent of registered
Nigerians will have their voter cards, because that is democracy. Without that, you
are not practising democracy and I don't want anything that will have the symptoms
of pseudo-democracy in Nigeria. We want something that will make the whole world
see and know that we are practising total democracy; it is costly and easier for
countries that are ruled by kings and queens. But if you are practising democracy,
though it is costly and painful, it should be total.
But Mr President, apart from the local challenges you have with your
critics here, there is this impression being created that quite a number of
the Western powers are not happy with your government. The impression
being given is why 'will you vote for someone who is not even in good
terms with the major powers' and they are quick to cite the instance of
when the United States refused to do anything concerning the Ebola Virus
Disease, the procurement of arms and when they said they were coming
to Nigeria to help us fight Boko Haram and train personnel, they were not
forthcoming. Now, when you connect that impression with what is being
written by some international magazines such as The Economist and the
New York Time the impression given to Nigerians is that you are not in
good terms with quite a number of these Western powers and that a vote
for you will be confining Nigeria to becoming a sort of pariah country. How
will react to these?
No, no, no; Nigeria cannot be a pariah country and there is no problem between
Nigeria as a state and other nations. Of course, we are in the United Nations and
before the last UN's major voting, I think I was called by the vice-president of the
United States and the Secretary of State, who calls me regularly. The vice-president
visited us not too long ago and there were some areas we raised issues, that you
need to do this and that. So if somebody gives the impression that Nigeria and the
US have major problems,that is not true. Even in the ongoing fight against terrorism
in the North, they are still supplying us with a lot of intelligence. I think the areas

that became pronounced was that we wanted to acquire some attack helicopters
that were based on American technology, with some produced directly in the US
and some in Israel. Of course, because of the global practice on platforms for war, if
a technology is American-based, wherever you are producing that, the US must
agree before it can be sold to any client. But the US had the feeling that our military
had issues of human rights abuse regarding fighting Boko Haram and they felt they
would not allow the sale of the attack helicopters, because the helicopters were
strong platforms, and they felt that the military would use them wrongly and the US
would be indirectly dragged into human rights abuses, which will make the congress
harass the government. That was the issue; it was not as if we had major problems
with the US. We never had any major problem with them and as we speak now, they
are still supplying us with intelligence. So also are France and the United Kingdom.
So, Nigeria cannot be a pariah state.
Of course, you are journalists. There are some countries where the heads of
governments come out and quarrel with the superpowers and often insult them,
even on the UN floor. Go and read about it. They will go to the floor of the UN and
attack US, attack Europe and all the G5 and their countrymen vote for them. So the
issue of Nigeria and the US fighting is non-existent and no one should create an
impression that I am not in good terms with the Western countries. The only thing is
that if you look at the media outfits, we have not been managing the media well. As
a government, we have been doing well, but we have not really managed the media
outfits, especially the international ones very well, even the local media. Probably,
our Ministry of Information is poorly-funded. I believe we must review the funding of
the ministry, because image-making is a key thing and we have not really invested
enough money in the aspect of image-making and the opposition parties knew our
weakness in that regard and keyed in very well. By so doing, they have been able to
change the perception. And what are they doing? They are using the Chibok girls'
issue and Nigeria is now being defined by the Chibok issue, which is very
unfortunate. There is no country where only a terror attack is used to define the
state; they said because Jonathan was unable to recover the Chibok girls, then that
he is a failed president. Is that proper? If you are a failed president, that means you
are running a failed state; is Nigeria a failed state?
Within this period, our economy became the biggest in Africa, worth more
than half a trillion dollars; it has never happened before. In terms of
Foreign Direct Investment, Nigeria is still number one in Africa; can you
say this is a failed state?
If a state has not failed and I have been president for five years, and we are
improving in all aspects; how can you say I am a failed president? You cannot define
Nigeria by Boko Haram for God's sake.
But there are consultants working for the opposition parties, who penetrated the
Western media and paint the colours and scenarios they want. Just as I said, we
failed to invest in media; we failed to invest in propaganda and we failed to invest in
the Public Relations aspect of government and you know that even big corporations

have strong PR consultants, because no matter what you did, detractors can paint
you black.
That is what is happening to this government. So, now we are receiving the reward
of poor investment in Public Relations. That is one area that, God-willing, when I get
back into office, we will have to strengthen the PR side of government. Otherwise,
nobody can stand and debate with me in terms of concrete achievements of
government.
We must compare what we have done within this period with what was done by
other administrations, be it in agriculture, roads, aviation, housing, education and
the health sector.
Take for example, when Nigeria was confronted by the Ebola Virus Disease, if we
had slept, we could not have routed it. I was in the US for the UN General Assembly,
when I got the information. Immediately left the US, when I landed in Nigeria, I went
straight to my office that morning. I went to the office and I started calling the
ministers. I summoned all the key ministers, including the Minister of Health and we
took certain key decisions, which was why we announced restrictions, that corpses
should not be moved around and that people should avoid crowded places,
unnecessary handshakes and so on. That day, we took certain decisions that helped
us to overcome the challenge. I also called all the state governors and asked them
to come with their commissioners for health for a meeting and we sat for almost the
whole day. I did not allow the governors to talk. We called the commissioners of
each state to tell us what they were doing and I wanted them to listen to their
contemporaries so that there could get a peer review. So that when state A goes
back, he can learn from what state B was doing right. I wanted the governors to
listen to the health commissioners. All the commissioners for health in the 36
states, including the Federal Capital Territory spoke and I said go and implement all
these policies; we must not allow Ebola to spread in Nigeria. We did everything we
could to make sure that did not happen. In fact, when I went back to the UN the
following trip, the Director-General of the World Health Organisation, Dr Margaret
Chan, was so elated that she wanted to lift me up. But here in Nigeria, I am just like
refuse to be dumped in the trash can. The way Chan was speaking, if it was her
duty to appoint the next president of Nigeria, she would just have appointed
Jonathan that day without election. She was impressed with Nigeria's effort.
Look at something like Guinea worm, we have eradicated it. These are intangible
things but nobody sees them. Look at polio, the last case of polio was in June 2014,
in Kano. God willing, we will eradicate polio this year. In 2011, after the election, I
went to Australia where there was a programme on polio eradication and there was
polio in Nigeria; India, Pakistan, Bangladesh and other countries. But I said 'look, we
must eradicate polio.' Today, I have to appreciate Bill and Melinda Gates; they
worked with us greatly to achieve that objective. And that is the lower level of
health issues. At the biggest level, where talk about health tourism and so on we
have also made great improvement. When I was a deputy governor, my late
younger sister, who I buried not long ago, had problems with her heart and I asked
my personal physician 'where we could take the lady for open heart surgery in

Nigeria?' But he replied that the closest place was one hospital in Ghana, where
some expatriate doctors usually came to handle such cases. I was sad that with all
the big teaching hospitals and federal medical centres everywhere, we had to go to
Ghana. Of course, I later sent her to India and that's a long story. She had been
suffering until she finally died. That was when I was a deputy governor. Today,
University College Hospital (UCH) Ibadan is doing open heart surgery; other
teaching hospitals are doing kidney transplant. In fact, the University of Benin
Teaching Hospital started work on stem cells, but because of the human rights
issues involved in stem cells work, they suspended it and so many countries are no
longer doing the stem cell thing. These things did not come by chance. You must
get the relevant equipment and funding for these kinds of breakthroughs. So, even
at the top level, we have improved. We have not reached where we want to go,
definitely not. At the lower level, our experiences with the prevention of Ebola
spread, the eradication of Guinea worm and polio show that we are not sleeping.
You have mentioned the issue of perception and how it affected your
government negatively, with the issue of Chibok girls and other issues at
the national and international level portraying your government as one
that has no action. Sir, can you give assurance that your government will
get the kidnapped girls out?
God-willing. Insha Allah, we will get these girls out, because as I told you earlier,
that very soon, in two to three weeks, we will be able to take over all the lost
territories. Luckily for us, we have not heard that these girls have been killed; we
have not. The stories we have been hearing are that they have been married out
but they are alive. By the time we take over these territories, we will get them out.
We are also cooperating with Central Africa; so if some had been moved out, by the
time we clear out the whole of Nigeria's territory; wherever these girls are, we will
rescue them.
But I have to plead with Nigerians that the whole world is facing terrorism; look at
what is happening in Pakistan; Egypt; Libya and even France. Egypt and Libya may
go to war, because Egypt had to go and bomb Libya territories after some terrorists
slaughtered innocent Egyptians. So, the success of this government or its failure
should not be defined by the Chibok girls, because that is an incident that people
have used to paint us in bad light, taking us across the shores of Nigeria to paint us
in bad light. And it is whatever you tell the world about your country that it will take.
So, if for political reasons, we are telling the world stories that will affect the country
negatively, that is dangerous. And that is why I am pleading with people: we have
only Nigeria as our country. No matter the contest, we must have a nation before
there is an office of the president. Without Nigeria, no one can contest to be
president of Nigeria or the governor of any state. So, we must come together and
ensure that we have a Nigeria of our dream. And the sanctity of Nigeria should not
be compromised on the platform of a political contest. We must not destroy our own
country.
Some groups in the South-West have complained that your government
marginalised the region. Why is this feeling pervasive in the region?

The South-West is one of the areas of this country that is dearest to me, perhaps
because of my strong belief in education. If you talk about education in Nigeria,
South-West is the hub of education. In fact, the time I graduated; we had more
professors from the South-West than the rest of the country; we had more
professors who were Yoruba. The figures must have changed now. I came from the
wretched of the earth, without education I could not have been where I am today.
So, I am persuaded about education. What created the perception you talked about
was that people look at top people in government; the president, the vice-president,
the senate president, the speaker of the House of Representatives, the Secretary to
the Government of the Federation and probably the Chief of Staff to the president
and saw that out of all these posts, not even one came from a very important zone
like the South-West of this country. Then, the Lagos-Ibadan road was also a big
problem. Otherwise, if you look at it, one can say that every state of the country
that did not have a federal university when we came on board, we have cited one
there and that affected Ekiti State. We cited one university in Ekiti State. In fact, the
Federal University, Oye in Ekiti State is the only one with two campuses, because
we tried to discourage a multi-campus system because of the cost-implication.
However, because of the peculiarity of Ekiti, we opened it with two campuses.
In order to correct the perceived marginalisation, when I dropped the Chief of Staff, I
said this is the opportunity to make sure that the South-West gets that position.
But I must explain again that I did not cause the problem of perceived
marginalisation of the South-West. If you recall, the PDP usually zones its positions
across the six geopolitical zones. And at the end of elections, when the president
and the vice-president come from different zones, then the president would be
asked where his SGF would come from and then the Senate President; Speaker and
National Chairman of the party to each of the three remaining zones. However, in
2011, the Action Congress of Nigeria (ACN) had many members in the House of
Representatives from the South-West and the PDP members in the House who had
done more than one term were about three; Mulikat Akande-Adeola; Ajibola Muraina
and one other person. So I said 'the party's zoning policy must be followed,' and
that was why we picked Mulikat. The pressure was much, but I insisted that we must
follow the policy, because if we take away the Speakership from the South-West, it
will affect so many other positions. If you talk about Board appointments, all these
six positions I mentioned earlier have a quota; the president has the biggest quota
and though the South-South must benefit because he is from that region, other
zones must also benefit. The same is applicable to the vice-president. The president
has the biggest quota, followed by the vice-president and the senate president and
then speaker. So, I said if we do not comply with that policy and the speaker, being
a core person when we are discussing issues affecting the country. it will affect the
distribution of things in the country. I fought and fought but I know what happened
and I do not want to raise them now; some of you also know it. Some people from
the South-West did not want PDP to have a stronghold in the region, so they
scuttled it. That was the problem. People saw that I started having problems with
the Speaker, Hon. Aminu Tambuwal, even before he defected to the APC, because

he felt I did not support him. I am the one that is suffering the pains for insisting
that the South-West must get the Speaker's seat. That is still affecting me till date.
So, I was not the one that caused the problem in the South-West.
But in terms of what I have done in the region, we established a university in Ekiti
State, the only state in the region that did not have a federal university and we also
established a polytechnic in Ondo. Of course, we have started the reconstruction of
the Lagos-Ibadan road and the Benin-Ore road was also reconstructed by this
government. The Ibadan-Oyo section of the Ilorin-Ibadan expressway was also
completed by this administration. These and other roads have been done or are still
under construction in the South-West, because the region is key and very important
in the country. I just told you that Lagos and the industrial part of Ogun State
contributes about 15 per cent or more to the economy of this country. So, we cannot
play with the South-West.
Mr President, for some time now; there have been cases of violence,
shootings and bombings in Rivers State. Another one happened this week.
How worried are you about the situation in that place?
Incidentally, violence is not only in Rivers State. I feel sad that we are embracing a
culture of violence that was not there before. At least, I contested as a deputy
governor in 1999; I was governor for some years and also contested and became
vice-president and then president; I have been at the top level of leadership for
some time, but things were not like this. The scenarios that we continue to witness
are quite different. In 1999, immediately we finished the election and we were
sworn in, for some of us who were deputy governors; you would not know the
difference between two deputy governors from different political parties. We related
freely. If your ward is going to another state, you just call your colleague that 'my
ward is coming' and he will take care of that ward and the same thing applied to
governors. We continued that way up till 2007; the governors related well
irrespective of political parties, until people developed unnecessary ambitions and
created crisis and began to move to parties. Cross-carpeting started taking place
even at the level of executive and then we began to see all these dangerous trends
of violence.
Now, some people believe that if you are in PDP, the governor from another party is
an enemy. No, we are not a mono-party system. That is why we have many parties
and we expect the different parties to produce public officers based on the parties.
We are not enemies. Within this period, you would have heard the case of a
presidential convoy being pelted by some young people instigated by adults. Even
the campaigns; the PDP started its campaigns much late but some people began
their campaigns with abuses, insults and so on. That was why when we launched
our campaign in Lagos, I spoke the way I did, because I felt it was not fair to make
campaigns based on insults. Campaigns should be based on issues. There is so
much venom, bitterness and these are manifesting in all kinds of ways.

When I heard about the shooting in Okrika, I called the Inspector-General and the
Director-General of the Department of State Security; I even called our governorship
candidate about the situation in Rivers. It is sad.
The Rivers State case is sad. It is extreme, because guns were fired. Campaign
vehicles and our offices had been burnt down in some parts of the North. In Lagos,
as I informed you earlier, Chisco just told me some youths burnt down 18 of his
luxurious buses. Is this proper?
The Rivers State's situation is quite sad but I don't like to join issues with a
governor, because it is not fair. But that state is becoming one bad example. By the
time we leave offices and people want to write the history of our periods in
government, it will be a very bad example. The House of Assembly has been closed
down in Rivers State for about two years. One arm of government has not worked
for two years. The judiciary was also shut down for over one year. When they closed
down the House of Assembly, they said 'Jonathan wants to impeach Amaechi,
because he is opposing him.' But out of the 33 members in the House, only about
five of them were in the PDP. Can the five people impeach the governor?
Maybe the conduct of the five PDP legislators showed that Sir...
Let us face the truth; which conduct? The whole arm of government has not
functioned for two years. Okay, what happened to the judiciary? Am I the one that
controls the National Judicial Council (NJC) and if the problem was with the former
Chief Justice Aloma Mukhtar, who has now gone, why was the Rivers State judiciary
still under lock and key? Is that the kind of democracy we are advocating in this
country? So, are we saying the day the president gets angry with the judiciary,
because it gives a judgment that does not favour him, he should go and close down
the judiciary and close down the National Assembly? Then, only the president will
be running government. You, the media people, should help Nigeria. If one wants to
do something about Rivers State, you hear noise; 'oh he is this and that.' The Rivers
State situation is sad and it is a very bad example.
Mr President, at this point, do you regret losing the five PDP governors,
including Amaechi?
We did all we could to bring them together. I had several meetings with these
governors. I am sorry to use this comparison, but it is like marrying a wife and for
some reason, either the size of your pocket is not big enough or you are weak in
some other areas or in-laws are harassing her, she makes up her mind to leave. If
another person eyeing her is around the corner, no matter what you do, she will
leave. After leaving, it will not be too long after, before you hear that she has
remarried. As the president, I scheduled meetings for 9 p.m and I would be there
before that time, but these governors would come one hour after. We had several
such meetings, because I wanted the unity of the party. As the leader of the party, I
did not want to preside over the disintegration of the party. But as a president, I
would be there to wait for a governor for one hour and we had several such
meetings. It was obvious that there was nothing we could do to stop them from
leaving. It was like doctors saying we tried our best to save the patient but we lost

him. Doctors cannot save all the patients. So I have no regrets. I would have had
regrets if it was possible for me to stop them from leaving and I did nothing to stop
them. But this one, it was not possible, because they had their reasons. We know
the reasons now, because we have all followed the political process so far.