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David Vincent

21 days ago

France and England used the Munich Pact and other secret diplomacy to cut deals with Hitler
to push him eastward to destroy the USSR. They planned to share the spoils of the USSR, and
China, with Hitler:
These were the kinds of reasons which led London and Paris to stand idly by while the Nazis
brazenly seized more territory (always in the east), grabbing Austria almost without firing a shot,
although at the time Germany was weaker than either of the Western powers, rolling through
Czechoslovakia and finally turning up on the Poles' doorstep. Hitler achieved his ends with
astounding ease and like all gangsters planned to teach his social betters their place: but the
idea of war with England still struck Hitler as odd, as an absurdity, something which grated
against the proper scheme of things. England was supposed to fence German ill-gotten gains:
that had been Chamberlain's role at Munich, when the Czechs were sold o. The idea that the
two countries would go to war over division of the spoils was shocking, and when it happened
Hitler was dismayed and piqued. He assumed it was a misunderstanding which could be solved
in the usual discreet way, by private talks, perhaps involving the recently-abdicated king, talks
aimed at seeing everyone right. Unfortunately for everyone the English had issued the Poles
with a Guarantee, and to renege on it might be to reveal the truly parlous state of the English
ancestral estates, for the empire was strung together with exactly such empty promises and
gossamer guarantees. The whole house of cards might come down.
Hitler hadn't thought of that; neither had Chamberlain until it was too late. The West had been
ready to let Hitler have his way in everything as long as he also performed the 'historic' mission
proclaimed in Mein Kampf - to destroy Bolshevism and so correct an 'error of history'. Soviet
worries about international security and the oft-professed Soviet interest in sponsoring due
process and legal framework in international relations rang no bells in London and Paris and
even seemed laughable or incomprehensible given Lenin's bloodcurdling calls for World
Revolution. What on earth were the cloth caps up to? The Olympian calm the Western powers
maintained as Hitler flagrantly violated international agreements, their inaction at the time of the
Anschluss with Austria, their betrayal of Czechoslovakia at Munich- all this was advance
payment on Hitler's promise to head eastwards, against the Soviet Union.

http://www.columbia.edu/~lnp3/...
9

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russputin > David Vincent

20 days ago

Nice one DV, that article is a good read :-)

May I add that what we are talking about here is global-scale organised theft that
originated at least 300 years ago. Hitler was a former street actor with attitude (any
parallels today?) and became a patsy, sounds like he was well deceived and Stalin
knew what was happening, through intelligence I assume.
The Bolsheviks were driven by the same folks who ran Hitler (the owners), and when
Stalin later decided to make them think twice, they strengthened and let loose the
Wehrmacht on Russia, to reinstall a puppet state, whilst the Germans did all the fighting
for them. Unfortunately the plan failed and so the global owners had to fight the
Germans (real or imaginary) to stop the Russians taking the entire European continent;
the owners used large allied forces to take up a defensive line, defense being the only
available option, hence the rapid establishment of the Cold War later. A clear sign of
who the real opposing forces were.
The owners are continuing the same routine today against Russia with Cold War 2.0
showing us the same opposing forces again, and manufactured conflicts in Ukraine,
Syria, Iraq, Yemen, Libya etc, to reduce or steal Russian, Chinese or Russo-Sino
interests and power centres. Again today the only things stopping them completing
these modern-day thefts (though they are already bearing much free fruit) are a
repowered, clever and awake Russia, China and Iran, plus a trickle of newcomers who
have also woken up, as Stalin seems to have done well before WW2 started.
This global-scale organised theft is not just confined to past and present conflict zones,
there are peaceful versions being employed today and have been in one form or another
for the past 300 years: peaceful colour revolutions, debt-funded import-consumerism,
oshoring, usury-laden fiat currencies, money printing from thin air (QE), loans created
from thin air (zero reserve banking, even fractional reserve banking was better), paper
derivative re-hypothecation (repeated selling of the same collateralised debt
obligations), false free trade agreements and more. All these designed to extract
wealth from populations, weaker but resource-rich nation states and investors who
dont do their homework.
4

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hoss2013 > russputin

20 days ago

Stalin's target was Germany where Communist were doing their best to
destabilize the country but it did not work out. Poland stood in the way of
"brotherly love" which was on its way from the East in 1920.
German Revolution
"Friedrich Ebert, Germany's new chancellor, called in the German Army and the
Freikorps to bring an end to the rebellion. By 13th January, 1919 the rebellion
had been crushed and most of its leaders were arrested. This included Rosa

Luxemburg who was arrested with Karl Liebknecht and Wilhelm Pieck on 16th
January. Luxemburg and Liebknecht were murdered while in police custody.Then
came Hitler came on the"
and in the mean time
"The PolishSoviet War (February 1919 March 1921) was an armed conflict that
pitted Soviet Russia andSoviet Ukraine against the Second Polish Republic and
the Ukrainian People's Republic over the control of an area equivalent to today's
Ukraine and parts of modern-day Belarus. At some points the war also
threatened Poland's existence as an independent state. It followed on from the
Soviet westward oensive of 191819."
These two events ARE CONNECTED !!!! The joining of forces could not occur
due to Poland. To solve the problem WW II was needed.
2

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russputin > hoss2013

20 days ago

Thanks Hoss, but I'm not sure this was the only reason for WW2...
If Stalin was aware of the 'owners' grand plan at the end of WW1 (1918 or
even earlier), then it explains all of Stalin's reasons to be messing with
Germany and Poland after that, plus the repressions etc in Russia for
decades after and within their territories of influence.
I think that getting Germany under control and strengthened to attack
Russia on the 'owners' behalf is a clear trademark of the 'owners', which
is being used today, and the real main objective for WW2, to make
puppet states of Russia and China.
Fortunately the leadership of Russia, China and Iran seem to have
outwitted the 'owners' by allowing them to fall asleep long enough to
infiltrate and neutralise the puppet infiltrators, become strong enough and
with their experiences of 300 years, to stop 'history' (aka the grand plan)
repeating again. Not least because today's WW3 will likely be the last one
war for at least 100 years, reducing the populous by 90% or so, until this
cycle is needed again by the 'owners'.
Another point for you to consider is the KGB's national brainwashing
technique, which I suspect Russia didn't invent, but here's a 1985 video
to explain by an ex-KGB agent... Only 9 minutes long and the most useful
bit of education Ive ever had

According to the KGB a national take-down process goes like this 1)

"demoralisation", 2) "destabilisation", 3) "crisis" and 4) "normalisation".
All of these processes were used and aimed at Russian, Chinese or
Russo-Sino interests (aka "the communists"), in favour of the owners
interests. Maybe Stalin used the techniques too, perhaps Stalin was
originally one of the owners puppets and was taught the technique? It
seems to have been used well before Stalin, some of these processes are
very recognisable in historical accounts, even those that might be
somewhat or entirely fabricated, (the circumstantial evidence exposes
them who benefits, where are the players now etc).
By the way I've personally witnessed the above take-down process being
used by a corporation against an individual, so size of victim is no object
either. It is a very clever, ruthless and interesting process I watched over a

six month period and I realised it was happening after just two weeks
(probably because I'd already seen the above video), which made it all
the more informative and gave some priceless knowledge of the process
in real life when forewarned you are forearmed.
We can see the same process occurring in Europe and America, let me
characterise it for you and the other readers, in modern terms...
1) "demoralisation" - austerity, inequality, amoral laws being passed
against accepted norms of education, health care and social practice, a
growing dependency culture (through excess bureaucracy, complexity,
benefits, poverty or debt), mass unemployment or overwork, underpayment, short stang etc. All of these weaken, confuse and distress
individuals. For populations this stage can be measured in years, for
individuals normally in weeks (usually about 4 to 8), ready for the next
part.
2) "destabilisation" - the above measures are often intensified, media
hype and propaganda begin to start rumours and highlight uncomfortable
issues, usually fabricated (e.g. lawlessness, neglect, unrealistic objectives
etc). Actual issues arise experienced by individuals (e.g. banking controls,
unfair taxation, debt collection, new and unexpected obligations, no
money for food or heating etc). These are designed to further weaken,
confuse, worry, and create discomfort, redirecting attention. Populations
can be destabilised in months, individuals within days, ready for the next
stage.
3) "crisis" - this is normally one or more pre-arranged and staged events
(aka false flags) - street protests, violence, terror and war; these can all
have social, employment, financial, religious, political, territorial or
resource settings and undertones. These are pushed to the limit by media
and rumour, designed to create significant worry, discomfort, alarm, panic
and fear, to disable and otherwise disarm individuals, so that they cannot
or will not act. Only weeks are required for populations, individuals a
matter of hours, ready for the next part.
4) "normalisation" - this is where a nation is taken-over or the individual is
taken-down. Nations are run using a serfdom model, through dictation
and extremism, whilst all the current looting etc moves into high gear. The
individual resigns, is fired or ostracised. This process then sets the stage
for a new normal, within a nation or corporation, where the residents or
workers are intentionally made to witnessed the process, and so continue
with complete obedience and subservience.
Right now, Europe is somewhere in between stages 2) and 3), the US is
about the same, perhaps a little further on. Ukraine, Syria, Yemen, Iraq
etc are all within stage 3) and stage 4) is being blocked by Russia, Iran
and China. Unfortunately it appears nobody is available at the moment to

block stages 3) and 4) in Europe and the US.

Interestingly, it does not matter if the population or individual knows that
they are being played with. The vast majority of course are unaware that
they are within a process that is completely against their interests. Only a
higher power than the perpetrating entity is able to stop the process,
such as a strong and clever military, trade union or social movement.
Kind regards :-)
2

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hoss2013 > russputin

20 days ago

I have seen this interview. I believe the ideas there are the same as found
in the The Protocols of the Elders of Zion.
Thank You :-)
2

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russputin > hoss2013

20 days ago

Thanks Hoss. Wiki says these Protocols were first circulated in 1903
Russia, so if correct, the take-down process must predate that. Whoever
invented the scheme was very clever, because I've seen it work perfectly
myself, and there is little victims can do except muster a higher power.

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hoss2013 > russputin

19 days ago

The Wondering Tribe has had many many centuries of collective

accumulation of knowledge in these things, hence nothing surprise me in
the method. We can see an examples of this clearly today if the observer
takes the time to think about what it is that he is observing. The Pussy
Cats and the Fem Girls are an excellent example of cultural attack
supported by them.
I was watching the 3rd season of "House of Cards" and was ready to
vomit when I saw how much time they allowed for the "presentation" of
gays /lesbians and man-man marriage. PURE BULL&HIT which the sheep
swallow like fresh ice-cream !!!!
1
Vladimir Brovkin

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21 days ago

Why do they say division of Poland? Polish state borders of 1929 were such only 19 years.
They were formed by the Polish Soviet War of 1920 which included territories that were not
Polish but Orthodox which meant Belorussian and Ukrainian. So the British and French
recklessly guaranteed Polish borders that went far beyond the Lord Curzon line that
demarcated ethnic Polish population from the Belorussian one. So Stalin took back which did
not belong to Poland to begin with.
5

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Gryzelda Wrr, Polish Emirates > Vladimir Brovkin

21 days ago

Depends. One day even Moscow belonged to Poland :)

2

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teddyfromcd > Vladimir Brovkin

21 days ago

that's really what i am learning more from all these...that's why even though i only
SUSPECTED years prior that the claim of polish victimhood ONLY in their history -- and
''greater poland'' is suspect..
i wanted to learn particularly the most basic of things:
WHO first settled the areas claimed by such and such people?
if austrians or germanics were in an area -- were they there FIRST? IF NOT -- FROM
whom DID THEY TAKE IT?
SAME applies to the claims of poland. was it AS LARGE as they claim ? which people's
overlapped in the claims and settling of the lands?

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Magorzata witek > teddyfromcd

19 days ago

The first Poland looked like this

https://www.google.pl/search?q...

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Magorzata witek > Magorzata witek

19 days ago

Note that west of them were other Western

Slavic tribes that now been almost completely Germanised, In north east
Poland lived
the Baltic Prussians (before the Teutonic
knights committed genocide on them), south were other Western Slavic
states and
in the east was the Eastern Slavic Kiev State and other Eastern Slavic
tribes. Already there was an area
disputed with the Eastern Slavs (light grey) which was ethnically Eastern
Slavic. Of course, before the Slavs came
to the region it was inhabited by other people, starting from the nomadic
tribes
who settled there after the ice age, some areas were settled by the Balts,
the
Germanic tribes came and left, some areas had Celtic settlements and
there were
many tribes/cultures that we can only guess at their ethnic origin. But all
in all, todays borders are very
similar to the borders of first Poland.

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slavix

21 days ago

Here is the pact western media and politicians do not like to remember.

4
zlop

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21 days ago

Of background significance are the motivations of the Bankers, why so many were killed.
"Rothschilds Conduct "Red Symphony"" http://www.henrymakow.com/0002...
"Banned in Britian : The Fionist Conspiracy and the UK Government"

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teddyfromcd

21 days ago

this -- THIS ARTICLE should be MUST-READ..!!

what i gather is -- assuming the facts laid out are the correct version -- POLAND ITSELF is
certainly partly to blame...
wanting protection but bone-headed in wanting more concessions from just about every party
involved: germany, russia, britain and france.

and then basically blaming EVERYONE ELSE - reserving its greatest hatred today for russia -but poland itself in its own decisions that could NOT possibly allow any of the others - britain,
russia, germany to deliver poland's -- seemingly own GREEDY attitude.
i am reminded by a brief heated discussion i had a year ago with a polish co-worker...who
dropped some clearly disdainful remarks about russia...
so i asked why?
and she said "well -- they -- but not only russians others too -- took our land...poland was
much, much larger than it is today".
so i asked her:
:HOW MUCH LARGER? CAN YOU IDENTIFY TO ME EXACTLY WHAT borders - at any time in
the past that made [poland larger than it is today?
and if so - HOW did poland ACQUIRE THOSE AREAS, -- did poles somehow just emerge from
those areas you say were taken from you? or were there OTHERS THERE just like poles were
there and shared territory?
- and then i mentioned "isn't it that certain parts of germany once were taken BY poland and
that's why hitler demanded THEM BACK? was that ORIGINALLY POLISH TOO?
''and what about ukraine - northwest -- is it not so that poles -- your nobilities once invaded
parts of ukraine and turned ukrainians into serfs under polish nobility? "
she suddenly became silent -- because I had made MY point -- that whatever "much bigger
poland" she was talking about that was ''merely taken by others" -POLAND ITSELF IS JUST AS GUILTY of taking some territory from its own neighbors......!! and
therefore should not be marketing itself as the \'RESIDENT VICTIM OF EUROPE" -- having
victimized OTHERS as well. ..even if they are not as known or as 'broad' as what germany did
in ww2..
6

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Magorzata witek > teddyfromcd

21 days ago

Yes indeed, Poles love to be the victims and it is impossible to talk them out of it. As to
Belorussia + Ukraine, these were Eastern
Slavic lands that the Tatars devastated and that came under the control of Lithuania.
Soon the Lithuanian gentry
became Slavonised, later Lithuania formed an ocial union with Poland and Poland
became the dominant party here with Polish gentry + the Catholic church getting rich
and trying to convert everyone to Catholism. As to todays western Poland, that before
the
war was part of Germany, from the early middle ages up to @9-10 century these lands
were inhabited by Western Slavs and became part of the first Polish state, but slowly +
surely the Germans took the lands and Germanised them by various means (it is worth
noting that before
the Slavs Germanic tribes did live there for some time, up to about the early middle

ages - but later emigrated West). As to

Eastern Prussia, this land was inhabited by Baltic tribes, the Poles asked the Germans
to help civilise the pagans, the Germans killed most inhabitants and settled there,
Poles also started streaming into the land.
2

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This comment was deleted.

Jo Syphus > Guest

20 days ago

It is unprofessional to make mistakes in your surname. In English it would

be Whrr. Silent "h" is missing
1

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Gryzelda Wrr, Polish Emirates > Jo Syphus

20 days ago

I'm Polish and I don't pretend to be anybody else.

Edit: Do you mean this Whrr http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki... Sorry, I had
to google it. I have never been able to watch more than 15 minutes of
Star Wars :) Actually your post was funny :) Was this Whrr at least on the
light side of the Force?

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Magorzata witek > Guest

19 days ago

I am a professional Putin troll J On my computer it shows as witek not

Switek, so p o.

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Gryzelda Wrr, Polish Emirates > Magorzata witek

19 days ago

Oh, so you finally found the "" on the keyboard. How nice.

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Magorzata witek > Gryzelda Wrr, Polish Emirates

19 days ago

No Gryz, it was always there, your computer for some reason does not
show it so p... o...

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Gryzelda Wrr, Polish Emirates > Magorzata witek

19 days ago

Wht "p ...o..." means?

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Bendys > Gryzelda Wrr, Polish Emirates

19 days ago

It means she's not Polish. Just pretending to be.

1

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teddyfromcd > Magorzata witek

21 days ago

strangely enough -- in the american-controlled (and notoriously now known to be

closely watched by US NSA government for 'editing" ) - wikipedia...

any such mention of poland's OWN attempts to grab lands that already
belonged to or populated by others earlier - is completely absent. \\
it is as if it is being ensured that the ''clean victim image" of poland is ensured...\
which is NOT surprising since the 'MASTER GRAND WIZARD'' OF AMERICAN
''GRAND CHESS GAME STRATEGY''
OF controlling ALL of EURASIA - from the tip of far east russia and china to
lisbon and normandy -- is none other than
POLISH extraction ZBIGNIEW BRZEZINSKI..
there is a pattern - especially from your explanation -- such as poland's earlier
century alliance with germany to 'cleanse' western ukraine - (i read of that
somewhere that they actually had a name for it -- a kind of earlier version of the
nazi 'LEBENSRAUM'' - ) in which poland seems to have a habit of
LATCHING ON -- like a parasite -- to a stronger power BEHIND which poland
then gets its 'cut''...
this is the same with poland TODAY - HIDING BEHIND THE SKIRTS of germany
and USA and as 'NATO' member , as a EU member, as a 'WESTERN
DEMOCRACY''...
etc..
it CAN'T declare ITSELF - BY ITSELF AS what it WANTS to be -- 'a big power" -but WANTS the benefits of BEING big power -so -- in its envy and wish to GRAB SOMETHING FOR ITSELF -- say - more
ukrainian territory, a bit more from russia in case russia gets defeated in the
future -- more 'influence' -- its own 'market share' -it then makes the LOUDEST SCREAMS about "poor victimized poland" -- it's the
fault of the RUSSIANS..IT';S THE FAULT OF THE NAZIS -- THEY ARE THE
SAME -- VICTIMIZING POLAND .!!! and those separatist eastern ukrainians.
etc...
while at the same time using this 'fault-pointing' - even if true -- to HIDE ITS
OWN FAULTS and assaults and schemes against others...
one can almost understand the LOGIC the nazis arrived at -- looking at poles like
others as 'untermenschen'' probably because of that demonstrated
character..NOT THAT it justifies what the german nazis did...but there it
is...POLISH CHARACTER ITSELF ISN'T as shiny nor noble nor INNOCENT as
they like to make it appear.
.
frankly -- i have observed THIS very behavior among several polish immigrants in

america that i personally know...

and other friends have noted it too -- a certain ''trait'' - at risk of being
stereotypical here -- in which they SEEM to appear 'neutral' -- but before you
know it -- they've already made ''whisper campaigns'' with others to turn them
against you or someone they don't like...
a few friends of mine have privately complained to me about this often saying
the most common and it seems appropriate description:
\
\
\"backbiters and backstabbers" -- who smile at you face to face -- or like to lurk
in a hallway corner listening to other's conversations -- and then slinking away to
others to spread rumors...that kind of thing...\\and before you know it -misunderstandings have happened...
but then they sill PRETEND and act as if THEY had nothing to do with it. i once
had high opinions of them but based only on READING HISTORY..
OF course not really knowing more and as much as today.......I Am frankly quite
disappointed that they are NOWHERE NEAR
AS 'NOBLE' as their greatest composer' --CHOPIN -- who of course is
undeniably my favorite composer among many -- and rightly so for his wonderful
music -as chopin MADE their land and people and 'spirit' APPEAR TO BE in music..
in ACTUAL PRACTICAL REALITY ..THE 'NOBILITY' - portrayed in chopin's
music -- exists -- ONLY in the music...less in the actual people..
sad to say. ..who demonstrate more a character that thinks being 'NOBLE
POLISH'' --is about being DISDAINFUL; of others -whose lands -- such as western ukraine or czechoslovakla or danzig -- and
certainly vast russia -they -- deep down -- are ENVIOUS OF -- AND WANT FOR THEMSELVES...which
in itself is the LOWEST OF THE LOW kind of character..
that's why i've lost most respect i once had for them.

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Magorzata witek > teddyfromcd

21 days ago

Remember my mum saying that the Poles themselves have a saying that
the worst enemy of a
Pole is another Pole (this saying is unpopular and unheard of these days),
this
is especially true when it comes to Polish migrants. As to Polish nobility,

quarrelsome drunks who

drank Poland away, but in the minds of the Poles and people who come
under
their influence the myth of the noble Polish Sarmatian insists. Interestingly
enough many are aware of their lowest
kind of character, or at least see it in many other Poles, many Poles do
not
like the Polish national character, they see what you see. But
still, when it comes to history, there is always the one victim, virgin
Poland.
4

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Gryzelda Wrr, Polish Emirates > Magorzata witek

21 days ago

If you really were Polish, you would know the latin proverb: Homo homini
lupus est. Your lack of classical education proves you are not :)
1

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Sergey Tokarev > Gryzelda Wrr, Polish Emirates

21 days ago

This is a contracted version of the proverb. The meaning is distorted as a

result. (Lipspalm)
1

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optionrider > Sergey Tokarev

20 days ago

You're such a pathetic, spamming idiot, Sergey!

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Sergey Tokarev > optionrider

20 days ago

Thank you, Zygmunt. (Lipspalm)

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optionrider > Sergey Tokarev

20 days ago

You're cordially welcome. Still, you're beyond pathetic, but it's the last
and the least of my problems.

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Magorzata witek > Gryzelda Wrr, Polish Emirates

19 days ago

Sure, everyone in Poland knows this proverb, and Latin. Even the
cleaningn lady and shop assistant :)

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Gryzelda Wrr, Polish Emirates > Magorzata witek

19 days ago

Sorry. Which is your case? A cleaning lady or a shop assistant?

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This comment was deleted.

Magorzata witek > Guest

19 days ago

I think its called self-criticism not self-hating. All in all I love Poland and
Poles and live
in this country even though I could live somewhere where it is far warmer
and
life is easier. Its like loving your child, she may not be perfect but you love
her, however, bad character traits
should not be ignored but noted, thought about and understood, makes
life
somewhat easier.

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This comment was deleted.

Magorzata witek > Guest

19 days ago

Pity yourself Bendys

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hoss2013 > teddyfromcd

21 days ago

":HOW MUCH LARGER? CAN YOU IDENTIFY TO ME EXACTLY WHAT borders - at any
time in the past that made [poland larger than it is today?"
Let me help you in wanted to know from your Polish co-worker. Sounds like he knows
the grammar school version which is simple not enough.

See if you can locate Germany on those maps.

Are you aware of the Partition of Poland ? It was done in three stages and the reasons
for it are simply to lengthy to put in a few sentences, but that is the reason the country
disappeared and reappeared in 1918 due to Versailles Treaty.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/P...
It is also good to know how Prussia came about and where Catherine the Great was
born to get a sense of the complicated history in this region. No, it is not simple as what
you say here,
"HOW did poland ACQUIRE THOSE AREAS, -- did poles somehow just emerge from
those areas you say were taken from you? or were there OTHERS THERE just like poles
were there and shared territory?"
"
Galicia[edit]
Main articles: Josephine colonization and Galician Germans
After the First Partition of Poland the Austrian Empire took control of south Poland, later
known as Kingdom of Galicia and Lodomeria. The colonization of the new crown land
began afterwards, especially under the rule of Joseph II.
Russian Empire[edit]
Main article: History of Germans in Russia and the Soviet Union
Since 1762, Russia called in German settlers. Some settled the Volga area northwest of
Kazakhstan and therefore became known as Volga Germans. Others settled toward the
coast of the Black Sea (Black Sea Germans, including Bessarabia Germans, Dobrujan
Germans and Crimea Germans) and the Caucasus area (Caucasus Germans). These
settlements occurred throughout the late 18th and the 19th centuries.
In the late 19th century, many Vistula Germans (or Oldrzy) immigrated to Volhynia, as
did descendants of early Mennonite settlers, whose ancestors had lived inWest Prussia
since the Ostsiedlung. Prussia imposed heavy taxes due to their pacifist beliefs. In
Russia, they became hence known as Russian Mennonites.
According to the 1926 (1939) census, there were 1,238,000 (1,424,000) Germans living
in the Soviet Union, respectively.[4]"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H...
2

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Northern Light > teddyfromcd

21 days ago

Not to mention that through the 20s and 30s, Poland had been ruled by a totalitarian
military junta. And never mind the whole 1918-1921 war with the USSR (and just about

everybody else!) which resulted in Poland occupying all or parts of: Byelorussia,
Lithuania, Czechoslovakia, Galicia (Western Ukraine) and half of Silesia.
1

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Andrey > teddyfromcd

21 days ago

You are absolutely right and make a good point. Governments (both Western and
Eastern, I have to admit) are acting like there were no history before 20th century. Why
bother being objective and fair when it's inconvenient? Or even plead guilty to their
crimes? They just pick (or falsify) facts that fit their needs and feed it to the masses. The
result is the people like that lady you had an argument with.
1

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teddyfromcd > Andrey

21 days ago

she studied graduated economics in the 'new poland' she said..and is an avid
capitalist..that much i know...

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Gryzelda Wrr, Polish Emirates

21 days ago

Minister Beck comitted many mistakes, but his words "there were two things which it was
impossible for Poland to do, namely, to make her policy dependent upon either Berlin or
Moscow" were the only honest choice in that situation.
Poland refused to cooperate both with Stalin's USSR against Hitler and to cooperate with
Hitler's III Reich against Russia. In reward we were attacked by both. Well, I feel proud that we
refused oers from two bigges criminals of all times. Do you feel proud of your colaboration
with Hitler?
(PS: During Polish annexation of Zaolzie died about 40 people. In Katyn, Kharkiv and Kozietulsk
more than 20 000 Polish soldiers were killed with cold blood.)
3

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Jade Heart > Gryzelda Wrr, Polish Emirates

21 days ago

My friend, guess where you guys built your defences, all at the SU border but none at
the border with the ever expanding Germany... Kind of makes people suspicious about
your intentions, no? Why was those soldiers killed? Ask yourself what were they doing
there in the first place. Helping Hitler, USSR, or independent? In real-politics, a threat
has to be dealt with, especially a threat that is ever-so-constant like the Poles, who
can't seem to realise they aren't that great a nation, and is just a tiny, technologically
backward, resources relatively poor, with less military than everyone else. Non-life
threatening, but can be annoying and dangerous at precarious times.
For example, even now you guys are building a battalion of Ukrainian, Lithuanian and
Polish soldiers, shouting about containing Russia and military attacks on Russia every
other day, and you expect Russia not to see you as a threat? Or do you think so lowly of
yourself, that you are little better than a bedbug, so no matter how much you bite a
human being, the human being won't bother to look through his bed to kill you?

PS. So now we see why Stalin did not care about poor little Poland and signed a nonaggression pact with Germany. Your leaders willingly gave up those lives of Polish
soldiers by refusing to negotiate with 2 of Poland's biggest neighbours. Sure, in
peaceful times, such behaviour is excellent, but in war times where every nation is for
himself, its just looking for death. If your family went before a tiger and a lion, and
refused to negotiate or ally with either, so the tiger and the lion ate him, will you blame
the tiger and lion or think your family is not-smart? :P
1

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Gryzelda Wrr, Polish Emirates > Jade Heart

20 days ago

We refused to collaborate with Hitler against USSR and we refused to

collaborate with Stalin against III Reich. As a consequence 6 000 000 Polish
citizens were killed.
You collaborated with Hitler against Poland, Finland and the Baltic states and as
a consequence 28 000 000 Russian citizens perished.
Hmm, let me think: which one is better, to lose your life or to lose you life and
honour?
Nah, I suppose I'll stick to our choice:)
2

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Jade Heart > Gryzelda Wrr, Polish Emirates

20 days ago

You collaborated with Hitler against Poland, Finland and the Baltic states
and as a consequence 28 000 000 Russian citizens perished, it is not a
consequence, but in spite of it, 28 000 000 Russian citizens were killed.
If there was no this so called "collaboration", which is in fact just a peace
treaty (it is the responsibility of all leaders to avoid wars involving their
people, it is not the Russians' fault that your leaders do not understand
this responsibility), USSR would have faced Hitler ALONE, without any
help from the West ;)
Conclusion: No Poles would have died, if your leader and your people
actually was loyal to your country and not stupid...
All Russians would have disappeared from the face of earth if their
leaders and people if they had the loyalty and intelligence of the Poles'
leaders...
Just consider yourselves (un)lucky, you are in such a strategic location for
anti-Russia, and so apparently "harmless", that it does not benefit the
Western powers by wiping you guys o the face of earth, but only to use
as cannon-fodder. Idiots are always easier to control than intelligent
people :P
AGAIN I ask you, what responsibility does USSR has over Poland, an
overtly anti-Russian state since the dawn of time?
2

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Gryzelda Wrr, Polish Emirates > Jade Heart

20 days ago

Our leaders were loyal to our country to the last drop of blood in their
vains. For some strange reason called ethics they were loyal even to
Russian people when in September 39 they gave the order: "Do not shoot
at bolsheviks."
The "peace treaty" meant:
-emprisonement of Polish soldiers. Part of them was shot (about 20000
people) , part of them was sent to your Nazi allies to work as slaves (my
grandfather among them).
-repressions agains civilians:" Initially, the Soviet authorities deported
primarily political figures as well as all Polish ocials, civil servants,
police, and Polish citizens who had fled from the Germans. The exact
number of Poles deported to Siberia or Central Asia between 1939 and
1941 remains unknown, and has been estimated at 500,000 about
350,000 of whom died."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S...
1

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Magorzata witek > Gryzelda Wrr, Polish Emirates

19 days ago

Hm, my father remembers how his father

told him how the Polish army would set free the Bolsheviks (in exchange
for Polish
captives) then with great pleasure shoot them in the back, hm, whatever
happened to the thousands (@80 000) of Bolsheviks in Polish gulags,
sorry
prison camps? Most died of hunger or
disease. Remember, dear, almost anyone
can write his own wiki story.
2

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Bendys > Magorzata witek

19 days ago

You practically did, with your fanciful anecdotes. However the wiki article
quoted by Gryzelda is based on books written by historians.

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Magorzata witek > Gryzelda Wrr, Polish Emirates

19 days ago

Dear, about half of this 6 million were Polish Jews. They died in some
short of honour ? We know that Russian deaths (Soviet to be precise)
achieved victory over
fascist Germany, what did the Polish
honourable deaths achieve?
1

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Gryzelda Wrr, Polish Emirates > Magorzata witek

19 days ago

What is your point? Do you think we should have accepted the German
oer to build an anti-Soviet coalition?
What did USSR achieve crushing Poland's resistance? How did it help to
defeat the III Reich?
Please, forgive me, I will not discuss about honor with you, as obviously
it's a concept totally strange to your mentality.

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Magorzata witek > Gryzelda Wrr, Polish Emirates

19 days ago

Gryzda, you are so proud and self-righteous

when it comes to Polish history (Polish version). It is so irritating, however,
even with all the stupid propaganda more and more Poles are beginning
to
question this self-righteous attitude propagated for centuries.
1

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Bendys > Magorzata witek

19 days ago

That's a lot of disdain of his/her own country for a 'Pole'.

Reply Share

Gryzelda Wrr, Polish Emirates > Magorzata witek

19 days ago

I am so proud that I am going to ignore you completely:)

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hoss2013 > Gryzelda Wrr, Polish Emirates

20 days ago

As always we are in a gray area of speculation as we do not have access

to documents which countries archive and mark Secret forever. The last
such case of secrecy I recall was Great Britain (that shining Democratic
State) which EXTENDED for another 50 years documents related to the
strange death of Gen. W. Sikorsky in Gibraltar.
Beck in 1939,
"When Hitler renounced the German-Polish Non-Aggression Pact in April
1939, Beck gave a famous speech at the Polish Parliament on 5 May
1939. In his address, he reacted to Hitlers demands for living space for
the German people with the famous words, In Poland, we do not know
the concept of peace at all costs. There is only one priceless thing in the
life of people, nations and countries. That thing is honor". The speech
boosted his popularity in Poland. "
Honor of a country is priceless ????? "Show me one such country" I
would say to Beck.
Beck apparently knew a very "heroic version" of history if he believed that
"honor" is never to be sacrificed when you CAN save millions of people.

He apparently forgot that there is ALWAYS another day to fight. He had

NO OBLIGATION to the people of France or Britain by signing the pacts
with them. Given what the politicians and generals of these countries
were doing in the years leading up to the war he should have know better.
All can be found in this book - " What Beck and Rydz Knew, History of
Military Thought and Pisudski's Army"
The best decision was to delay the attack on Poland by "giving an inch"
to Hitler, NEUTRALITY or an Alliance to be broken in the future through
clever wording, of which there is no shortage to be found in history. Let
Hitler concentrate on France and Britain. Yes this is 20/20 reasoning but I
think such conclusions could have been reached back in 1938 or 39
based on behavior of France and Britain.
1

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Gryzelda Wrr, Polish Emirates > hoss2013

20 days ago

You are misinterpreting my words. If I have to choose between dying with

honour and dying without, my choice is simple.
Politics of appeasement leads to nowhere. Europe gave Hitler many
inches in Czechoslovakia. Was he satisfied? No. He asked for more.
There was no possibility to save millions of people. Stalin tried to do it
according to Russian interpretation of Ribbentrop-Molotov Pact. Did it
pay o? Not really. 28 000 000 Soviet citizens died. So what are we
talking about?
1

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hoss2013 > Gryzelda Wrr, Polish Emirates

20 days ago

My point is
"Let Hitler fight FIRST with France - Britain AND then I can worry about
him attacking me. "
That is a BIG dierence in what happens to you. In this case you have
TIME and you have a blooded opponent who definitely is weaker.
France and Britain DID practically NOTHING to help Poland during the
month of fighting after 1 Sept. and then after capitulation for 8 months !!!!
Look up "The Phony War" if you do not know how this progressed IN
TIME. Mhlstein and Retinger and probable others were a V Column
setting up Poland for a defeat.
1

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Gryzelda Wrr, Polish Emirates > hoss2013

20 days ago

France and Britain did nothing except for declaring war, that's true. But
do you really think that Hitler would be so stupid to attack them first? I
don't think so. Still, this all are hypothesis...

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hoss2013 > Gryzelda Wrr, Polish Emirates

20 days ago

"France and Britain did nothing except for declaring war, that's true."
IT IS WORST !!!!!!!!!
"While the Luftwae were bombing Warsaw, British aviation was busy
dropping propaganda leaflets over German cities.
Then a disgraceful, sordid political game began in the West, which would
go down in history as the Phoney War. On Sept. 3, 1939, Great Britain
and France actually declared war on the Third Reich. The Polish military
mission immediately left Warsaw and flew to London. It is easy to guess
that the Polish generals came to discuss specific joint actions to be taken
in order to obliterate the invading aggressor. We can barely fathom the
emotions these patriots must have been feeling. Furthermore, the Polish
military mission was left waiting for an entire weekbefore they were
received by the British Chief of the Imperial General Sta, General
Edmund Ironside! "
http://orientalreview.org/2015...
1922, Soviet Union initially cooperated with Germany,
"The Soviets oered Weimar Germany facilities deep inside the USSR for
building and testing arms and for military training, well away from Treaty
inspectors' eyes. In return, the Soviets asked for access to German
technical developments, and for assistance in creating a Red Army
General Sta.[21]
The first German ocers went to the Soviet state for these purposes in
March, 1922. One month later, Junkers began building aircraft at Fili,
outside Moscow, in violation of Versailles. The great artillery manufacturer
Krupp was soon active in the south of the USSR, near Rostov-on-Don. In
1925, a flying school was established at Vivupal, near Lipetsk, to train the
first pilots for the future Luftwae.[2] Since 1926, the Reichswehr had
been able to use a tank school at Kazan(codenamed Kama) and a
chemical weapons facility in Samara Oblast (codenamed Tomka). In turn,
the Red Army gained access to these training facilities, as well as military
technology and theory from Weimar Germany.[22]"
******** No reaction from the West.
Next Hitler,
"The remilitarization of the Rhineland by the German Army took place on
7 March 1936 when German military forces entered the Rhineland. This
was significant because it violated the terms of the Treaty of Versailles
and the Locarno Treaties, marking the first time since the end of World

War I that German troops had been in this region. The remilitarization was
hugely important as it changed the balance of power in Europe from
France towards Germany, and made it possible for Germany to pursue a
policy of aggression in Eastern Europe that the demilitarized status of the
Rhineland had blocked until then."
******** No reaction from France or Britain.
Hitler annexis Austria.
******** No reaction from France or Britain.
Goes after Czechoslovakia and takes the whole country.
******** No reaction from France or Britain.
Since 1933 he had been trying to make a deal with Poland

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Gryzelda Wrr, Polish Emirates > hoss2013

20 days ago

This article from Oriental Review...

"The ruling elite, who had dragged their country into this bloodbath, had
no wish to display heroism. As early as Sept. 5, upon receiving the first
reports that columns of tanks were hurtling toward the capital, the Polish
leaders fled to Lublin, and on Sept. 17 they escaped across the
Romanian border. Following on the heels of the government, the senior
commanders and general sta of the army also cut and run. Instead of
shooting down and crashing into German planes and dying with honor in
battle, approximately 500 Polish aircraft flew o for Romania, Latvia, and
Lithuania."
You Russians you don't have the minimum sense of honour. You shot
these people at their heads, persecuted their families, you devastated
their country and now you dare to insult their memory... I'm speechless.
PS: About one thing you are right. the Phony War was a crime in 39. The
Phony War we are waging against the aggressor state of Russia is a
crime too. The frontline should be moved from Donbass to Russia as
soon as possible.
1

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Magorzata witek > Gryzelda Wrr, Polish Emirates

19 days ago

I have another beauty for you Gryz. Note that when the Bolsheviks came
into
Polish Belorussia most Belarusians were actually very happy about this,
they
supported the Bolsheviks. When the Polish
army regained the areas the Polish soldiers were given a few days to do

whatever they liked in that town or village, what followed was sheer
barbarism,
many were tortured and killed, women and children were raped then killed
in
barbaric ways (no shot in the head here), some of my relatives escaped
from
such a town, later, when the German invaded Poland and they saw what
the Germans did, they were not as surprised
as the other Poles, they had seen this earlier in Polish Belorussia.
1

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Gryzelda Wrr, Polish Emirates > Magorzata witek

19 days ago

"When the Polish army regained the areas the Polish soldiers were given
a few days to do whatever they liked in that town or village, what followed
was sheer barbarism"
Sources and evidence, please.

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Magorzata witek > Gryzelda Wrr, Polish Emirates

19 days ago

How strange, ocially almost none in Poland, I wonder why, but families
do
remember (like mine) + Belorussia is quite aware of this + teaches such at
school. Wiki is not so super after all.

Reply Share

Bendys > Magorzata witek

19 days ago

Yeah, but we don't know your family, so show sources. If it's such "a
beauty" it must surely have been mentioned somewhere.
1

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Magorzata witek > Bendys

19 days ago

Sorry Bendys, I am not young, I have lived and listened to many people
who went through the war, I am not an addict of wiki or the website, if you
search hard enough you will find old books/memoires on these subjects
(paper copies in Polish or Belorussian). But hurry, people die, such old
books are not being re issued.

Reply Share

Bendys > Magorzata witek

19 days ago

You'd be surprised how many old books are still showing up, even on
Amazon. You just need to read them. So make an eort in your old age
and enlighten us.

Reply Share

Magorzata witek > Bendys

19 days ago

Amazon ? Do you know how silly that sounds, no, you probabley do not.

Anyway, it is obvious we live in 2 dierent worlds, matrix or not, have a

nice day or evening as there is no point whatsoever to reply to anymore
of your posts.

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hoss2013 > Gryzelda Wrr, Polish Emirates

19 days ago

Oriental Review is over the top in using these emotional words as though
they were some school boys on a playground describing a school fight.
GOOGLE took me to them as they happened to have the relevant
information about the Allied behavior toward Poland. The rest of the
article has very big holes !!!
A reader of any information always has a problem as to where the truth
ends and the lies begin, or where the author chose to leave out
information. Such is life.
1

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hoss2013 > hoss2013

20 days ago

If Poland has politicians/diplomats such as these decisions will always be

"suspicious",
Anatol Mhlstein ---- "Polish diplomat Anatole Muhlstein married Baron
Robert's daughter Diane.Roth+schild had only two daughters.
Who with his "excellent" contacts couldn't help his country to get money,
military supllies needed etc. before the start of the war. WHY?
Then this "excellent" diplomat --- Jzef Retinger - a close advisor to Gen.
Sikorski in London
"Jzef Hieronim Retinger (17 April 1888 12 June 1960) was a Polish
political adviser. He was a founder of the European Movement that would
lead to the founding of the European Union[1] and was involved in
founding the Bilder berg Group."
What connects these two "excellent" diplomats ?
1

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hoss2013 > hoss2013

20 days ago

However if Poland has politicians/diplomats such as these decisions will

always be "suspicious",
Anatol Mhlstein ---- "Polish diplomat Anatole Muhlstein married Baron
Robert's daughter Diane.Rothschild had only two daughters.
Who with his "excellent" contacts couldn't help his country to get money,
military supllies needed etc. before the start of the war. WHY?
Then this "excellent" diplomat --- Jzef Retinger - a close advisor to Gen.

Sikorski in London
"Jzef Hieronim Retinger (17 April 1888 12 June 1960) was a Polish
political adviser. He was a founder of the European Movement that would
lead to the founding of the European Union[1] and was involved in
founding the Bilderberg Group."
What connects these two "excellent" diplomats ?

Reply Share

hoss2013 > Gryzelda Wrr, Polish Emirates

20 days ago

As always we are in a gray area of speculation as we do not have access

to documents which countries archive and mark Secret forever. The last
such case of secrecy I recall was Great Britain (that shining Democratic
State) which EXTENDED for another 50 years documents related to the
strange death of Gen. W. Sikorsky in Gibraltar.
Beck in 1939,
"When Hitler renounced the German-Polish Non-Aggression Pact in April
1939, Beck gave a famous speech at the Polish Parliament on 5 May
1939. In his address, he reacted to Hitlers demands for living space for
the German people with the famous words, In Poland, we do not know
the concept of peace at all costs. There is only one priceless thing in the
life of people, nations and countries. That thing is honor". The speech
boosted his popularity in Poland. "
Honor of a country is priceless ????? "Show me one such country" I
would say to Beck.
Beck apparently knew a very "heroic version" of history if he believed that
"honor" is never to be sacrificed when you CAN save millions of people.
He apparently forgot that there is ALWAYS another day to fight. He had
NO OBLIGATION to the people of France or Britain by signing the pacts
with them. Given what the politicians and generals of these countries
were doing in the years leading up to the war he should have know better.
All can be found in this book - " What Beck and Rydz Knew, History of
Military Thought and Pisudski's Army"
by
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/L...
The best decision was to delay the attack on Poland by "giving an inch"
to Hitler, NEUTRALITY or an Alliance to be broken in the future through
clever wording, of which there is no shortage to be found in history. Let
Hitler concentrate on France and Britain. Yes this is 20/20 reasoning but I
think such conclusions could have been reached back in 1938 or 39

based on behavior of France and Britain.

However if you have politicians/diplomats such as these you will not
come to such conclusions,
Anatol Mhlstein ---- "Polish diplomat Anatole Muhlstein married Baron
Robert's daughter Diane.Rothschild had only two daughters. 14. Jacques
Helbronner, counselor of state"
Who with his "excellent" contacts couldn't help his country to get money,
military supllies needed etc. before the start of the war. WHY?
Then this "excellent" diplomat --- Jzef Retinger - a close advisor to Gen.
Sikorski in London
"Jzef Hieronim Retinger (17 April 1888 12 June 1960) was a Polish
political adviser. He was a founder of the European Movement that would
lead to the founding of the European Union[1] and was involved in
founding the Bilderberg Group."
What connects these two "excellent" diplomats ?

Mario8282

Reply Share

20 days ago

"The purpose of the Secret Protocol is made clear both by its text and by its context - a
pending German attack on Poland. It was to prevent the German army, after it defeated
Poland, marching into regions (eastern Poland, the Baltic States and Bessarabia), which the
USSR considered vital for its own security. "
Yeah right, and territorial expansion was never on the mind of Stalin/Soviet Union/Russians.
Why didn't Stalin give these territories back after 1945 to the peoples they truely belong? Why
does Putin say that Stalin was correct in "securing" the Russian Western borders by territorial
expansion? Security at the expense of territorial integrity of others? THIS created more
motivation at the local level to attack Russia and get back the lost lands. This historical
injustice will have a lasting deep negative impact on Russia's interests in Eastern Europe as
long as it is not corrected, no matter what the fate of "the exceptional nation" is gonna be!
2

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David Vincent > Mario8282

20 days ago

The USA has been militarily occupying and meddling in Germany for 70 years since the
end of WWII - why didn't Truman give this and other territories "back after 1945 to the
peoples they truely belong" ? Why did the CIA meddle in countries all over Europe after
WWII, installing violent rightwing regimes that would make the desired business deals
with the USA, while crushing leftward-leaning governments? For example in Greece, the
USA intervened in a civil war, helping to install the neo-fascists over the Greek leftists
who had courageously fought the Nazis just years before. The neo-fascists instituted a
highly brutal regime, for which the CIA created a new internal security agency, KYP.
Before long, KYP was carrying out all the endearing practices of secret police

everywhere, including systematic torture.

http://www.jhubc.it/ADMISSIONS...
The neo-fascist regime in Kiev continues this seven decades of creating rightwing
governments to encircle the erstwhile WWII ally - USSR - that the UK, France and USA
were hoping Hitler would destroy.
3

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hoss2013 > David Vincent

20 days ago

Strategy of Tension. Korea was/is another such example. It is an excuse NEVER

TO LEAVE and ALWAYS BE ABLE TO MEDDLE. Troops in Japan. And the list
goes on and on ...
2
MH

Reply Share

21 days ago

Didn't this gave the USSR a 200 mile buer zone? The Germans had to begin their attack 200
miles further to the west; all things being equal this means that in December of 1941 they
would have been 175 miles east of Moscow instead of 25 miles west of it. And, for all intents
and purposes, the war would have been over. Also, the extra 200 miles of wear and tear on the
German tanks must have had some eect, especially in the heat and dust of the summer. I
would think Stalin saved Russia with this one decision; for all of his barbarity. He did the right
thing.
2

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hoss2013 > MH

20 days ago

You may find this interesting

http://thevelvetrocket.com/200...
and another explanation of the same
"There are still many misconceptions about the second world war, especially concerning
the role of Stalin. According to Alec Nove (normally quite an astute commentator on
Russia): "Germany's colossal power was greater than Russia's and she had at her
disposal the industries of occupied Europe. Her armies were well equipped, and the
equipment had been tested in the battlefield. Despite the very greatest eorts and
sacrifices in the preceding decade, the Soviet Union found itself economically as well as
militarily at a disadvantage." (A. Nove, An Economic History of the USSR, p. 273.)
As a matter of fact, at the time of the Nazi attack on the Soviet Union, the combined
firepower of the Red Army was greater than that of the Wehrmacht. Yet the Soviet forces
were rapidly encircled and decimated. This unprecedented catastrophe was not the
result of objective weakness, but of bad leadership. Having destroyed the best cadres
of the Red Army, Stalin placed such blind confidence in his "clever" manoeuvre with
Hitler, that he ignored numerous reports that the Germans were preparing to attack. The
Minsk fortified area, a mighty defensive line which had been built on the western border
of the USSR in anticipation of a German attack was actually demolished on Stalin's

orders, presumably as a gesture of good faith to Berlin. Grigorenko, who had worked
before the war on the building of these fortifications, describes his feelings of
indignation when they were demolished:
"[These] fortifications were to have reliably shielded the deployment of assault groups
and repelled any attempts by the enemy to break up the deployment. When the army
attacked, the fortified areas were to have supported the troops with firepower. Instead,
our western fortified areas did not fulfil any of these tasks. They were blown up without
having fired once at the enemy.
"I do not know how future historians will explain this crime against our people.
Contemporary historians ignore it. I cannot oer an explanation myself. The Soviet
government squeezed billions of roubles (by my calculations not less than 120 billion)
out of the people to construct impregnable fortifications along the entire western
boundary from the Baltic Sea to the Black Sea. Then, right before the war in the spring
of 1941, powerful explosions thundered along the entire 1,200-kilometre length of these
fortifications. On Stalin's personal orders reinforced concrete caponiers and
semicaponiers, fortifications with one, two, or three embrasures, command and
observation posts--tens of thousands of permanent fortifications--were blown into the
air. No better gift could have been given to Hitler's Barbarossa plan." (Grigorenko, op.
cit., pp. 46-7, emphasis in original.)"

Reply Share

MH > hoss2013

20 days ago

I wrote that for all of his barbarity; he made one correct decision - pushing the
frontier 200 miles to the west. He traded the Stalin Line for 200 miles. I'm sure
the Germans could have breached any fortified line in at least one location and
once a fixed line is breached it's useless along its entire length. The Germans
wound up 25 miles short of Moscow; starting 200 miles further to the east they
would've been beyond Moscow in December. Please don't lecture me on the
purges and relative firepower. I'm simply remarking on the geography of where
they were and where they might have been. One correct decision isn't a paen of
glory to Stalin's reign.
1

Reply Share

hoss2013 > MH

20 days ago

Relax, No One is ,
"... lecture me on the purges and relative firepower."
If you read carefully you should have seen this "You may find this
interesting". If you don't just ignore the comment.

hoss2013

Reply Share

21 days ago

I support Putin's fight against the Zionist Cartel but ....

"

Putin had in the past condemned the pact as unethical.

"Today we understand that any form of agreement with the Nazi regime was
unacceptable from the moral point of view and had no chance of being
realised," Putin wrote in a 2009 article in a Polish daily on the 70th
anniversary of the outbreak of World War II.
Merkel
for her part on Sunday condemned the pact, which included secret
protocols dividing up Poland and allotting the Baltic states to Moscow,
while conceding that historical responsiblity for World War II lies with
Germany.
"From my point of view, the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact is hard to understand unless you take
into consideration the extra secret protocol."
"And from this point of view, I consider it was not right, it was done on an
unlawful basis," Merkel said in translated comments.
The German leader was visiting Moscow a day after she and other Western
heads of state snubbed a massive military parade on Red Square for the
70th anniversary of victory over Nazi Germany.
In a conciliatory gesture, Merkel paid tribute to the Soviet dead by
standing side by side with Putin as she laid a wreath at the tomb of the
Unknown Soldier by the Kremlin walls."
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------The map that came along with the Pact,

"Papers which were kept secret for almost 70 years show that the Soviet Union proposed
sending a powerful military force in an eort to entice Britain and France into an anti-Nazi
alliance.
Such an agreement could have changed the course of 20th century history, preventing Hitler's
pact with Stalin which gave him free rein to go to war with Germany's other neighbours.
The oer of a military force to help contain Hitler was made by a senior Soviet military
delegation at a Kremlin meeting with senior British and French ocers, two weeks before war
broke out in 1939.
The new documents, copies of which have been seen by The Sunday Telegraph, show the vast
numbers of infantry, artillery and airborne forces which Stalin's generals said could be
dispatched, if Polish objections to the Red Army crossing its territory could first be overcome.
But the British and French side - briefed by their governments to talk, but not authorised to
commit to binding deals - did not respond to the Soviet oer, made on August 15, 1939.
Instead, Stalin turned to Germany, signing the notorious non-aggression treaty with Hitler
barely a week later."
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/new...
********
The British and the French DID NOT want a deal which would stop a war, as the bankers

wanted a war. When Poland signed the treaty with Brits and the French it signed its own death
sentence as now Hitler could not attack France as was his initial intent. Manipulation of Poland
made this impossible as he was sure that Poland would come to the French aid if she was
attacked. He was highly certain that the reverse would not happen and he was right. Brits and
the French would not come to help Poland in ANY MEANINGFUL way.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/P...
and the meeting at Abbeville on 12 Sept. 1939 where it was decided to DO NOTHING. Daladier
wrote that he did not want to mobilize so that the French farmers could gather the harvest !!!
He didn't want the French to go hungry !!! Bottom line, Poland was to be a sacrificial lamb
which would keep Hitler busy. It worked but it was not as easy as Hitler thought !!! Fighting
lasted from 1 September 6 October 1939 (1 month and 5 days).
During all this time Brits and the French couldn't even drop a bomb on the German cities for
fear of "retaliation by Germans" !!!! How funny can it get considering that nearly all of German
war machinery was stuck in Poland which did not fall in 2 weeks as expected. Even to turn it
around to the Western front would have taken a long time.
"During the Phoney War, Britain was also engaged in bombing raids over Germany but it
was not bombs that were dropped but propaganda leaflets. Sir Kingsley Wood, Secretary of
State for War, called them truth raids. The raids served two purposes:
The Germans would read about the evils of Nazi Germany
It was show the leaders of Germany just how vulnerable their country was to bombing raids.
Millions of leaflets were dropped over Germany. On September 3rd alone, 6 million copies of
Note to the German People were dropped in just one night the equivalent of 13 tons of
paper. The main result of these initial raids was that the Germans stepped up their anti-aircraft
batteries.
While some politicians believed that the raids served a purpose, others in the military did not."
http://www.historylearningsite...
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Tom Welsh

21 days ago

Ironically, it seems that there were more ethnic Germans (as a percentage) in Danzig 1939 than
Russians in Crimea 2014. Just as with Crimea, Danzig was given to a foreign nation as a result
of treaties dictated with no concern for the right of self-determination. It was quite reasonable
for Hitler to demand the return of Danzig to Germany. If the Poles had been wise, they would
have ceded the territory. From what I have heard, the Americans were already at their tricks:
FDR told Hitler he should insist on getting Danzig back; he told the Poles they should make no
concessions; he told the British and French to fight if Hitler attacked Poland, and that the USA
would be right behind them. Then, when it all happened, the USA sat back and did nothing.
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ilya (BY)

21 days ago

Hm - about secret pact. 29 september 1939 in "Pravda" writen about this Pact and line. That mean
secret pact be only one month.
1

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Sergey Tokarev

21 days ago

Such articles must be really distressing for propagandists to read. They must be grinding their
teeth. (Lipspalm)
1
Julian

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21 days ago

Makes me think, did Gorbachov laso signed secret protocols with Reagan?
I would assume that Gorbachov would have learned from history and documented the NATO's
undertaking of Eastern non-expansion, no?
1

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russiaisalie

21 days ago

If stalin wanted to defeat hitler why for many years before the war he was helping him,
supplying german army, allowing them to train on russian soil. Why russians attacked Poland
on 17 IX 1939, backstabbing us when we were bleeding against germans? I will tell you why. To
murder thousends. to send millions to Siberia gulags, to conquer because it is only thing russia
can do. Really great way to stop hitler by attacking country fighting with hitler. Russians started
WW2 together with nazis. They were the same. And russians will pay.
And to all those idiots saying Poland after first world war occupied lands that didn't belong to it
read about polish-lithuania commonwealth and who conquered who in late XVIII century
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This comment was deleted.

siberiancat > Guest

21 days ago

where did you get this number from?

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This comment was deleted.

siberiancat > Guest

20 days ago

You know, my grandfather was executed by the Bolsheviks, I have

absolutely no love lost for them, but your number of 120 million for
Communist Russia is simply an order of magnitude o. It's more like 20
million, which is horrible enough.
Check your sources.

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This comment was deleted.

siberiancat > Guest

20 days ago

Try estimating the death toll from the global Christianity. Just as a
reference.
On the subject, what does the death toll in China has to do with the
Molotov-Ribbentrop pact?

kan garoo

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21 days ago

Stalin was secretly moving to attack germany before hitler decided to go on the oensive - this
is now openly revealed. this however is too much for the emburdened russian psyche to accept
at the present time.
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Anatoly Karlin > kan garoo

21 days ago

What is it with "Suvorov"/Rezun freaks infesting all the WW2 discussions of late?
5

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ilya > kan garoo

21 days ago

Stalin prepare alliance in 1936 against Germany, becose Germany starting wars. But
Antanta decide this alliance.
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kan garoo > kan garoo

21 days ago

We will force this war upon Hitler, if he wants it or not. Winston Churchill
Germany becomes too powerful. We have to crush it. Winston Churchill (November
1936 speaking to US General Robert E. Wood)
This war is an English war and its goal is the destruction of Germany.
Winston Churchill (- Autumn 1939 broadcast)
The war wasnt only about abolishing fascism, but to conquer sales markets. We could
have, if we had intended so, prevented this war from breaking out without doing one
shot, but we didnt want to.
Winston Churchill to Truman (Fultun, USA March 1946)
Germanys unforgivable crime before WW2 was its attempt to loosen its economy out
of the world trade system and to build up an independent exchange system from which
the world-finance couldnt profit anymore.
-Winston Churchill (The Second World War Bern, 1960)
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teddyfromcd > kan garoo

21 days ago

on these -- i completely agree.

a great deal of responsibility for what DROVE GERMANY as a nation to what it

did that climaxed in world war 2 with hitler -without removing responsibility by hitler and the germans -IS what BRITAIN -- and its growing powerful - ally -- USA -- DID TO block
germany's economic prosperity as a rival
they DID intend to crush germany as a rival..
and THAT BEHAVIOR IS AGAIN BEING REPEATED BY THE USA -- against 'ANY
RIVAL POWERS EVER RISING TO CHALLENGE US".
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Media Watch > kan garoo

21 days ago

Could've, would've, should've. It never happened. Pure speculation on what if's and
therefore historically irrelevant.
2

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JPH > kan garoo

21 days ago

Proof? Or just your opinion?

2

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b9876 > JPH

21 days ago

There is a movement by Nazi apologists to shift the blame to Soviet Union. It is

based on book by Suvorov "Icebreaker". Nevermind, that it was discredited, they
take it as gospel.
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SaraniFox . > kan garoo

21 days ago

Source?
1

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Lars Andersson > kan garoo

21 days ago

There is two schools about it, I do not know which one is the truth. But from this text
both Stalin and Hitler consider each other to be a threat, so anything is possible to me.

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Tom Welsh > Lars Andersson

21 days ago

Anyone who suggests that they weren't both right about that doesn't know much
about Hitler and Stalin - or their military establishments. Obviously they were
enormous threats to each other.

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kan garoo > kan garoo

21 days ago

Using post-Glasnost archival material and research, Magenheimer confirmed that

Suvorov was indeed right.

The Nazi's "Operation Barbarossa" anticipated the Soviets by only "a few weeks" says
Heinz Magenheimer, one of Austria's most respected military historians. "The
Wehrmacht thrust right into the centre of an overpowering oensive deployment with
armored and motorized troops massed on the borders." ("Hitler's War: Germany's Key
Strategic Decisions 1940-1945, 1997, p.63)

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the_locust > kan garoo

21 days ago

I checked my copy of the book - it's right there at the top of page 63.
Why would anyone object to the USSR attacking Nazi Germany in 1941? By
then, Hitler had over-run France, bombed England.
The Western Allies attacked in North Africa, Sicily, Italy - landed in France in
1944 to get to Germany -- but people think it would be wrong if the USSR
attacked the horrible Nazi regime by themselves?
I don't get it, folks. What's the complaint? That the USSR would have won
without the West's help?
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Boris Reitze > the_locust

21 days ago

The USSR would have been destroyed as it should have been without the
Western front.
2
Bendys

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19 days ago

Revisionist Russian history.

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R_of_R

19 days ago

Website operator alert! The article text has disappeared from the page. Everything else is still
there.

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hoss2013

20 days ago

"Second, I remind you that after the Munich Agreement was signed, Poland itself took steps
to annex part of Czech territory. In the end, following the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact and the
division of Poland, they fell victim to the same policy that they tried to pursue in Europe."
But this not as simple as it is presented above !!!!
"The first Czechoslovak Republic is in the literature often presented as oasis of democracy in
eastern Europe between the wars. Some people including professional western historians
seems to believe that "democracy" = good guys, other forms of government = evil guys. So
according to this rather funny belief Czechoslovakia is presented as the poor victim of evil
neighbors while no one cares to check how reality was looking like, when compared to those
myths.

First what must be said is that in Czechoslovakia lived many dierent nationalities ( like on the
lands called Ukraine !!!! )
Czechs - about 50 % of population
Germans - about 24 % of population
Slovaks - 18 %
and the rest were Hungarians, Poles, Jews and Gypsies.
Many often argue that Poland together with Hungary and Germany invaded Czechoslovakia,
but few seems to think what was the reason of this action (few people also know that Poland
did it before Germans). But to say truth Poland was preparing itself for war against
Czechoslovakia since early 30ties of the 20th century.
Why did Czechoslovakia have such bad relations with most of its neighbors? What was the
reason of hostility between Czechoslovakia and Poland?
The story goes back to years 1918-1920. That time Poland was at war with almost every
neighbor. In the western Poland was a great anti-German uprising. In the east there was war
against Ukrainians and later Russia.
Meantime in the south Czechoslovakia and the Poles agreed to solve the border issues
amicably, according to plebiscites in which local population will vote if they want to be part of
Poland or part of Czechoslovakia. But Czechoslovak side violated the agreement and send
16.000 soldiers to capture the disputed areas while Polish armies were busy elsewhere and the
only force which could have fight against them were local Polish volunteers who had almost no
arms and no ammunition to fight longer than for not even days but hours. Farther,
Czechoslovak forces murdered many of captured Polish volunteers and started persecuations
of Polish population living on disputed territories, meantime many times breaking ceasefire
which was forced by France and moving the border even farther north. Finally Polish side was
forced by France and Britain to recognize all the land-grab committed by Czechoslovaks. Why
did Poland agree for it? Because Russian army was already at the gates of Warsaw while
France and Britain blackmailed Poland and threatened to stop all transports of arms from west,
for which Poland has already payed.
It is also worth to mention that in those hard moments when Poland was fighting the Soviet
Red Army the only country which oered help to Poland was Hungary. But Czechoslovak
government DIDN'T ALLOW for transport not only of Hungarian troops to Poland but even
Hungarian trains with ammunition for Polish army.
So Czechoslovakia itself when had the opportunity behaved not like a good neighbour but like
predator and that was the reason why joined Czechoslovak-Polish cooperation against
Germany wasnt possible when Hitler came to power.
In 1938, before the Germans, Polish goverment demanded the return of the territories which
were grabbed by force by Czechoslovakia in times when Poland was fighting for its life in
1920."
http://historum.com/european-h...

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Rogoraeck

20 days ago

Well...... It's a Secret de Polichinelle ... that the City of London & Wall St wanted war & the bad
boogies were Hitler & Stalin ...
In a nutshell Germany & Russia !
Today the big bad boggy is Russia & Vladimir Putin as to Germany no worry. Still occupied by
the Light Upon Nations reinforced by US occupation bases !

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Intrigat

21 days ago

Gotcha. Hitler didn't complain about USSR annexing Bessarabia but because the Soviet Union
went further than that was agreed and annexed Bukovina too. Then the poor fool got it clear
that Stalin had double-crossed him and thought a bit: "Dude, why would you want Bessarabia
for? Maybe because from the Bessarabian border to my oil wells from Ploiesti are less than 200
km? I didn't agree that with you, ya know. But I didn't agree with you taking Bukovina either...
Oops. Halder, where the h3ll are you, man?! "
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Bernd

21 days ago

deleted by author

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Jade Heart > Bernd

21 days ago

I certainly do not wish for traitors and merchants of countries, for example,
Khodorkovsky to be killed, based on morality. But I do not think it is wrong for him to
die...
What do you consider as decent? A leader like Gorbachev?
Stalin was never a hero, a hero could do no wrong, and Stalin did plenty. and I doubt he
wanted to be. But he was a leader who brought his country, the only thing he was
responsible for, to greatness.
Honestly, The victory by the Soviet Union over Nazi Gremany was despite of Stalin, not
because of Stalin? Do you think any other human being will be able to develop
adequate technology, persuade (force) Western powers to send resources and military
(and even Hitler himself), develop the economy, create alliance states (China), and make
SU into the super-power it was then?
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RaisingMac > Jade Heart

21 days ago

I give principal credit to the brave Soviet people, though I wouldn't say Stalin's
role as leader was completely irrelevant. Could you imagine, for example, a
drunken idiot like Boris Yeltsin commanding the nation to victory in the Great
Patriotic War? I can't.
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Jade Heart > RaisingMac

21 days ago

LOL, if Yeltsin was there, Russia won't exist today...

He won't have managed to sign the pact with the Germans, so the Germans will
invade SU before the West, and the West would have absolutely no reason to
help SU with anything, SU will lose, a puppet regime will be set up after an
decade long slaughter, then Hitler will be "defeated" by the allies, it would have
been the ultimate success for the Anglo-Zionists... It was pure luck that this pact
was signed and stalin was in power lol
The reason SU won is not only because of the brave people, tho it is a major
factor, but adequate technology and resources as well, procured by Stalin and
his regime
1

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