Sanatana Dharma

Conversion to Shaivism

1) Does Shiva incarnate like Vishnu?

2) Are Vishnu and Brahma aspects of Shiva?
3) Where and what is the Supreme Abode of Lord Shiva, that His devotees will
obtain after moksha (basically, the equivalent of the Vaishnava's Vaikuntha)?
4) What are the main Scriptures of Shaivism, and do Shaivas accept the
Bhagavad Gita, the Bhagavata Purana, and the Vishnu Purana?
5) How do we worship Shiva? Aside from puja to a linga and the Sacred
Mantra ("Om Namah Shivaya"), how does one go about worshipping Him?
6) What are the basic philosophical beliefs of Shaivism? Do Shaivas believe
that Shiva actually exists or do they believe that the "true" Shiva is
ourselves? Do Shaivas believe that Shiva and the soul and matter are 3
seperate entities, or that they are all part of Brahman? etc.

Thank you again, and may Shiva bless you.

Om Namah Shivaya.
Eastern Mind
07 October 2007, 11:10 AM
Namaste Haridas: I adopted Saivism about 30 years ago.. still I am no expert.
As to the questions you posed, well... you'll get a variety of answers as within
Shaiva there are different groups and philosophies. Keep watching this thread
and you'll see what I mean. After that, you'll have to decide for yourself which
of the many make the most sense. Here are my answers, briefly, from the
point of view of monistic Saiva Siddhanta.
1) no
2) not aspects, but same as, different names

3) in the Sivaloka, soul merges,

4) Vedas, Agamas, and others depending on variety of Saivism (read the Siva
sutra thread on here) plus works of various Saiva gurus
5) surrendering your ego to Him, through puja, japa, meditation, prayers
6) All and in all - pati pasu pasam all merge in monistic branches, in dualistic
branches, all continue separately
Aum Namasivaya
BTW, what are you converting from? Don't answer this if you don't want to.
Haridas
07 October 2007, 11:21 AM
Namaste.
Thank you for your answers. As to the different groups of Shaivas, all I'm sure
have the same basic principles. That's what I'm looking for. Thank you again
for your answers and may Shiva bless you.

BTW, what are you converting from? Don't answer this if you don't want to.

Gaudiya Vaishnavism.
Arjuna
07 October 2007, 12:13 PM
Namaste,

To begin with, there is no "one Shaivism", but several schools whith

somewhat different views and practices. Certain ideas are common to all
shaivas, while another are peculiar to specific traditions.

1) Does Shiva incarnate like Vishnu?

Shiva does not "incarnate". But the whole world is His manifestation, and His
power of mercy (anugraha) is revealed in Sadguru and Agama. Again, each
jIva is Shiva by its nature and thus can be termed as an "avatAra".

[/QUOTE]2) Are Vishnu and Brahma aspects of Shiva?[/QUOTE]

Shiva as the Godhead has 5 powers or functions:

1. Sadyojata = Brahma = Srishti-shakti
2. Vamadeva = Vishnu = Sthiti-shakti
3. Aghora = Rudra = Samhara-shakti
4. Tatpurusha = Maheshvara = Tirobhava-shakti
5. Ishana = Sadashiva = Augraha-shakti
(Names may have different meanings in different contexts, but this is the
basic scheme.)

[/QUOTE]3) Where and what is the Supreme Abode of Lord Shiva, that His
devotees will obtain after moksha (basically, the equivalent of the
Vaishnava's Vaikuntha)?[/QUOTE]

Shiva is not limited to any loka or dhAma. He is transcendent & immanent at

the same time.
Realising Shiva means recognition of one's own true nature as Atman.
Realised being (Siddha or Yogini) is ever free, whether in this world, in any
other or in nishkala-shUnya, since he/she is Shiva by his/her very nature.

[/QUOTE]4) What are the main Scriptures of Shaivism, and do Shaivas accept
the Bhagavad Gita, the Bhagavata Purana, and the Vishnu Purana?[/QUOTE]

Main Scriptures of all Agamic schools of Shaivism (that means all except
Pashupatas) are Shaiva-Agamas. All accept 28 Siddhanta-Agamas, while
Tantric Shaiva Tradition adds Bhairava-Agamas (considered to be 64 in
number) as the supreme revelation. Apart from Agamas, there are few other
essential sources considered to be Shruti, such as Shiva-sutra.

Pashupata is a Vedic school having Pashupata-sutra as its main Scripture (in

addition to Vedic texts).

Agamic Shaivism is not based upon paurANika texts, though several

Mahapuranas are mostly Shaiva (first of all, Shiva/Vayu-purana). Puranas are
secondary authority meant for people of limited understanding and cannot be
regarded as primary souce of doctrine and practice.

Some Shaiva traditions do accept Brahma-sutra (and there are several

schools of Shaiva Vedanta) and Bhagavadgita. However these texts aren't of
any great importance. Of course Vaishnava upapurAnas like Bhagavatam (it is
not the same as Bhagavata as Mahapurana, which is lost) have no
significance for any Shaiva tradition (as, for example, Chandi- or Kalikapuranas aren't authorative for Vaishnavas).

[/QUOTE]5) How do we worship Shiva? Aside from puja to a linga and the
Sacred Mantra ("Om Namah Shivaya"), how does one go about worshipping
Him?[/QUOTE]

This depends upon particular school, but in any case there is a kind of Yoga
(in a sense of spiritual practice and not gymnastics).

Usually there are four aspects of practice: charyA (rules of conduct), kriyA
(rituals), yoga (inner practices) and jnAna (knowledge).

[/QUOTE]6) What are the basic philosophical beliefs of Shaivism? Do Shaivas

believe that Shiva actually exists or do they believe that the "true" Shiva is
ourselves? Do Shaivas believe that Shiva and the soul and matter are 3

seperate entities, or that they are all part of Brahman? etc.[/QUOTE]

Views of different schools differ (as in a case of Vaishnavas too).

Monistic Shaivism (that is, Tantric one, based on Bhairava-Agamas and

represented mostly in form of "Kashmir Shaivism") sees Shiva as the Absolute
(Anuttara), Supreme Lord (Maheshvara) and Consciousness (Parasamvit). He
as Absolute Consciousness is the only Reality. Matter and soul do exist and
are "real" since their nature is Consciousness alone. All manifestation is play
of Shiva's free will (svAtantrya-shakti) and expression of His inherent bliss.
This "will", "bliss" or "vibration" (spanda) is Shakti which is identical with
Shiva.

Namah Shivaya
Agnideva
07 October 2007, 12:22 PM
Namaste Haridas,

You may wish to read from Himalayan Academy

(http://www.himalayanacademy.com/) and subscribe to their daily email
course. It will explain many of the basics of Shaivism. I would especially
recommend Dancing with Siva
(http://www.himalayanacademy.com/resources/books/dws/) for the basics.

1) Does Shiva incarnate like Vishnu? From the Agamic Shaivism perspective,
there is no teaching about incarnation (avatar), but many forms of Shiva that
appear in legends, stories, Puranas, etc. are recognized and not altogether
rejected.

You may wish to read the recent thread: Incarnation of Shiva

(http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showthread.php?t=2090).

2) Are Vishnu and Brahma aspects of Shiva? Shaivism in general teaches that
Brahma, Vishnu and Rudra are all parts of Shiva. The so-called Trimurti exists
only in a manner of speaking. In truth, there is only Shiva, who is known as
Brahma, Vishnu, Rudra, Maheshvara and Sadashiva in various capacities.

3) Where and what is the Supreme Abode of Lord Shiva, that His devotees will
obtain after moksha (basically, the equivalent of the Vaishnava's Vaikuntha)?
Shivaloka, as EM mentioned. In Shaivism, Shivaloka is the highest of the
seven worlds which may also be called Brahmaloka or Satyaloka. Beyond
that, there is no loka as such, but oneness with Shiva. Shaiva monists believe
in complete merger (like a drop of water mixing with the ocean), dualists
believe in a merger with difference (like salt mixing with water).

4) What are the main Scriptures of Shaivism, and do Shaivas accept the
Bhagavad Gita, the Bhagavata Purana, and the Vishnu Purana? The primary
scriptures of Shaivism are the Vedas and the 92 Shaiva Agamas. Among the
Shaiva Agamas there are two types: 28 Siddhanta Agamas and 64 Bhairava
Agamas. The secondary scriptures include the Shaiva Puranas, Itihasas,
writings of Shaiva saints and masters, etc. In general, the texts mentioned
above are not commented upon or used by Shaivites, as they are Vaishnava
in character. The Bhagavad-Gita has been commented upon by some
prominent Shaiva Gurus, particularly in Kashmir Shaivism. In the Shaivite
interpretation, the Bhagavad-Gita is used to explain the principles of yoga,
and the entire text is taken to be allegorical. In other words, the BhagavadGita is not used as a bhakti text in Shaivism.

5) How do we worship Shiva? Aside from puja to a linga and the Sacred
Mantra ("Om Namah Shivaya"), how does one go about worshipping Him?
Generally, worship of Shiva is similar to Vaishnava worship. Shaivites
obviously worship Shiva as supreme and place Shiva icon in the center. Most
important icon is the Shiva Linga, but there are many others like Nataraja,

Ardhanarishvara, etc. Shaivites also worship Shakti as non-different from

Shiva, Lord Ganesha and Lord Kartikeya (Murugan). Shaivism also places a lot
of importance in mantra meditation and raja yoga even for beginners.

6) What are the basic philosophical beliefs of Shaivism? Do Shaivas believe

that Shiva actually exists or do they believe that the "true" Shiva is
ourselves? Do Shaivas believe that Shiva and the soul and matter are 3
seperate entities, or that they are all part of Brahman? etc.It depends on
which school you are following. Within Shaivism, there are dualistic, monistdualistic and pure monistic schools of thought. Where is the "true" Shiva?
Everywhere, within and without. Shiva is within us, beside us and apart from
us all at the same time.

Aum Namah Shivaya,

A.
Agnideva
07 October 2007, 12:38 PM
Namaste Haridas,

Gaudiya Vaishnavism.
You need not answer this question either, but may I ask why you've decided
to leave behind Gaudiya Vaishnavism?

Aum Namah Shivaya,

A.
Arjuna
07 October 2007, 01:01 PM
Shaiva monists believe in complete merger (like a drop of water mixing with
the ocean)

Namaste Agnideva,

I would like to point out that this analogy may be misleading. Paradvaita does
not reject bheda but sees it as existing in Consciousness alone. Shaivism
doesn't subscribe to the common Advaita-vedanta view of "kevala" Advaita.
Somewhere Acharya Abhinavagupta says that Paradvaita neither establishes
nor rejects bheda. Shaiva Siddhas do not merge in void but realise their true
nature as Consciousness. Due to this they are perfect jIvanmuktas, who
perceive this world as manifestation of Shiva's bliss. But if we take literally a
model of "complete merging", we should assume that only videha-mukti is
possible which certainly is not the case.
yajvan
07 October 2007, 03:30 PM
Hari Om
~~~~~

Namaste Agnideva,

I would like to point out that this analogy may be misleading. Paradvaita does
not reject bheda but sees it as existing in Consciousness alone. Shaivism
doesn't subscribe to the common Advaita-vedanta view of "kevala" Advaita.
Somewhere Acharya Abhinavagupta says that Paradvaita neither establishes
nor rejects bheda. Shaiva Siddhas do not merge in void but realise their true
nature as Consciousness. Due to this they are perfect jIvanmuktas, who
perceive this world as manifestation of Shiva's bliss. But if we take literally a
model of "complete merging", we should assume that only videha-mukti is
possible which certainly is not the case.

Namaste Arjuna & AD.

Can I make a recommendation? These conversations are most excellent , and
you folks are knowledgeable.

Can you assist others with the terms that you use? A Key term that will
unravel this post is bheda. Without knowing this, one is at a disadvantage of
comprehending the conversation.

For me, bheda is that of differences. Key to Dvaita, the panch-bheda or 5

differences? [ I think this is the list below - please correct any misrepresentations]

Between God and jiva

Between jiva and jiva
Between God and matter
Between jiva's and matter
Between matter and matterjust a friendly suggestion to add more value for
the casual reader.
pranams,
Haridas
07 October 2007, 03:53 PM
Namaste all.
Thank you for answering my questions and guiding me to various websites. I
am beginning to understand the beauty of Shaivism.

However, I must ask:

The form of Lord Shiva that we see in pictures (the meditating blue ascetic),
is that is "Personal" or "Supreme" Form with all of His attributes (such as
Vishnu's Narayana form), and then all else emanates from Him (such as
Vaishnavas' beliefs on Vishnu's breathing in and out and created universes)?

Also

When we merge with Shiva, are we then God? As in, do we lose our identities

and from then on experience things as Shiva, and we are literally Him?

And finally

Is everything that is made of physical matter an illusion?

Thanks again for answering, and may Shiva bless you.

Namaste Haridas,

You need not answer this question either, but may I ask why you've decided
to leave behind Gaudiya Vaishnavism?

Namaste
I decided to leave Gaudiya Vaishnavism because its main scripture, the
Bhagavata Purana, contradicted the Vedas and Upanishads on some points,
and even lowered the level of Lord Shiva to that of an easily subdued man
(one story states that Shiva was entranced by Mohini and wanted to cheat on
Goddess Parvati with her). This is also why I left Vaishnavism in general.
Eastern Mind
07 October 2007, 06:14 PM
Haridas : The blue-throated Siva is Dakshinamurthi, the ultimate meditator, I
suppose. He is another form of Siva, or better yet, another way that Siva
manifests. There is lots of symbology related to Dakshinamurthi, of which I
know quite little, but others will help you. It's definitely more common in
North India.
As others have pondered, it is interesting to be converting within Hinduism,
or at least seeking out. Maybe I'll start a new thread. For sure, if you look for
them, you will find contradictory scripture in every sect. That used to bother
me. I once asked a swami that very question. Right now I can't remember the
point that I had found contradictory, but he just laughed and said, "It's all just
Siva's dance." I took it to mean that we shouldn't sweat the small things like

small contradictions, and stay focussed on the big picture, which is the
realisation of the Self God within. Aum Namsivaya
Agnideva
07 October 2007, 08:48 PM
Namaste Haridas,

The form of Lord Shiva that we see in pictures (the meditating blue ascetic),
is that is "Personal" or "Supreme" Form with all of His attributes (such as
Vishnu's Narayana form), and then all else emanates from Him (such as
Vaishnavas' beliefs on Vishnu's breathing in and out and created universes)?
Yes, mostly we see Shiva pictures where He is represented as an ascetic
seated in meditation with matted locks and all the other symbols. The way I
view this image is that it is a projection of the image of a Saiva ascetic onto
Shiva.

If you're looking for more of a universal form of Shiva, that would be the
Nataraja Murti, Shiva in His cosmic dance of creation, sustenance and
dissolution. You can read up on the Nataraja symbolism on Wikipedia
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nataraja).

Is everything that is made of physical matter an illusion?I will leave it to

others to answer your more philosophical questions, but from my
understanding Shaivite philosophies all hold that the world is as real as the
reality of Shiva.

Aum Namah Shivaya,

A.
Arjuna
08 October 2007, 02:35 AM
Namaste Haridas,

The form of Lord Shiva that we see in pictures (the meditating blue ascetic),
is that is "Personal" or "Supreme" Form with all of His attributes (such as
Vishnu's Narayana form), and then all else emanates from Him (such as
Vaishnavas' beliefs on Vishnu's breathing in and out and created universes)?

I liked Agnideva's answer re Shaiva ascetic projection. Perhaps that is the

case with this commonly known form.
All Shiva's forms such as Nilakantha, Bhairava, Sundareshvara, Nataraja,
Sharabha, Mahakala, Sharva, Rudra etc. are aspects of Shiva that have
certain symbolism.
There is no picture of Supreme Shiva since He (He-She) is beyond everything
and in everything. But I assume the "general" highest form (and one of the
most ancient) of Shiva which is depicted is Panchavaktra since He is
personification of Pachakshari. Then, there are several "specific" forms which
can be seen as highest (but again not of Anuttara-Paramashiva), such as
Mahakala or Kameshvara they are bhairavas of three main Mahavidyas
(essential forms of Goddess/Power of Consciousness).

Shiva has several representations in mantric form: Panchakshari, Navatmakabhairava etc.

When we merge with Shiva, are we then God? As in, do we lose our identities
and from then on experience things as Shiva, and we are literally Him?

In monistic Shaivism every jIva (aNu or nara) is Shiva only by its nature, thus
there is no point of "becoming" Shiva. It is Shiva who takes up all identities by
His own free will. Thus it is up to Him whether "we" lose or retain any of these
:)
In any case, Shaivism accepts nara-tattva as one of three essential elements
of Trika (triple Reality of Brahman). It is not an illusion, but function of
Supreme Consciousness.

Is everything that is made of physical matter an illusion?

Everything is made of Consciousness and exists only in Consciousness as a

fact of perception. Thus, everything is real.

I decided to leave Gaudiya Vaishnavism because its main scripture, the

Bhagavata Purana, contradicted the Vedas and Upanishads on some points,
and even lowered the level of Lord Shiva to that of an easily subdued man
(one story states that Shiva was entranced by Mohini and wanted to cheat on
Goddess Parvati with her). This is also why I left Vaishnavism in general.

I am new to this Forum. I am a Shiva Bhakta. What is Hari and Shiva, they are
one and