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16thAugust2015,05:45

ComradeAllende
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Postmodernism?

I'veheardtheword"postmodernism"tossedabout,usuallyindeepphilosophical
conversations,butIneverseemtohavegottenthebasicdefinitionofit.Cansomeonegive
meadumbeddownexplanationofpostmodernistprinciplesandbasictenets?

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16thAugust2015,12:27

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HasanInfantileDisorder

Kindofhardtosumpostmodernismintoashortdefinition.Somanydifferenttheoriespost

structuralism,deconstructionism,whateverthefuckBaudrillarddoesarepartofthepost
modernisttendency.Perhapsthebestwaytodescribepostmodernismisthatit'sawayof
thinking,ofapproachingissues.DavidHarveygivesagoodsummaryofthedifferences
betweenmodernistthinkingandpostmodernistthinkinghere:
ShowSpoilers

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16thAugust2015,20:12

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Postmodernistsbasicallyrejecttheideathatthere'sanobjectivereality.Theyarguethateach
personcreatesherorhisownrealitythroughpersonalexperience.
That'sablatantoversimplificationthere'smoretoitinthepostsabovemine.Postmodernism
emergedasareactionagainstlogicalpositivism,thephilosophicalorientationtowardontology
andepistemologywhichwasdominantintheearly20thcentury.
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18thAugust2015,15:32

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Postmodernismposesthequestionastothepossibilitiesofdoingphilosophyafterthedemise
ofModernism,whichislooselydefinedasthemeansandendsofreason.Therefore,'post
mod'assumesthattheclaimsofreasonassomewhatofanabsolutehavealreadybeen
provenfalse.
Thekeyplayer,ofcourse,isDescartes,withsupportfromAristotle.'Ithink,thereforeIam',
ofcourse,butalsothepresupposedabilitytoclaimwhatwesenseandcommittoreasonis
realinawaywhichwe'dnowcall'commonsense'.
MostwritersseethisfallcomingwithNietzsche'sperspectivism.Whatweareisa'willto
power'.Yetmany,includingNegri,seethepushbackasearlyasSpinoza,whowrotethat
reasononlyservesourbasicstriving(conatus).
Inthisvein,onecaneasilyimagineMarx'sclaimthat'theprevalentideasofasocietyare
thoseofitsrulingclass'isantimodernist,too:thereisnopurereasonotherthanits
application.

Inthisrespect,it'snotthatpostmodsrejecttheexistenceofanobjectivereality,butrather,
thatwedonotpossessthemeansofdiscoveringit.ReturningtoKant,ashomosapiens,we're
riggedupwithcertaincapacitiesthatserveourownendsthatlaterevolutionistswouldclaim
tobe'adaptive'.
OTH,knowingwhat's'really'trueinalargersensewouldpresupposeamindgiveninthe
imageofgod.This,again,istheCartesianmind.Withoutit,ewehavetoinquireastothe
meansandendsofthoughtitselftherealchallengetomodernismassuch.
Postmodernistsbasicallyrejecttheideathatthere'sanobjectivereality.Theyarguethateach
personcreatesherorhisownrealitythroughpersonalexperience.
That'sablatantoversimplificationthere'smoretoitinthepostsabovemine.Postmodernism
emergedasareactionagainstlogicalpositivism,thephilosophicalorientationtowardontology
andepistemologywhichwasdominantintheearly20thcentury.

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19thAugust2015,03:45

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Quote:

OriginallyPostedbyComradeAllende
I'veheardtheword"postmodernism"tossedabout,usuallyindeepphilosophical
conversations,butIneverseemtohavegottenthebasicdefinitionofit.Cansomeone
givemeadumbeddownexplanationofpostmodernistprinciplesandbasictenets?
Somerandomthoughts.
Itseemstobeprettymuchagreedthatpostmodernismiswhatcameaftermodernism.So
whatwasmodernism,howlongdiditlast,etc.Myviewisthatmodernismbeganin1914with
WWImodernismwasthecultural,philosophical,historicalformofimperialisticcapitalism.
Thisiswhystructure,objectivity,liberalvalues,weresoimportanttomodernism.
ImperialismwasimposingWesternstructure,objectivityandvaluesontherestoftheworld.
So,whendidmodernismend?1945atAuschwitzandHiroshimamightbeagooddate.Noone
couldpretendanymorethatWestern,liberalvalueswerethehighestvalues.
Butalso,Western,nationalisticimperialismwasreplacedbyinternational,monopolistic,
monolithiccorporatecapitalism.Themoderncorporationdoesn'tpretendtohaveanyvalues
atall,exceptforthesinglemindedpursuitofprofit.Theonlyvalueofpostmoderncapitalism
isthesubjective,decentered,destructuredvalueofconsumerism.
Postmodernismiswhatyougetwithlatestage,monopolisticcapitalism.Modernismwas
HenryFordandPicassopostmodernismisAmazonandQuentinTarantino.
Postmodernismistheemptyspacebetweencapitalismandsocialism.

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19thAugust2015,10:18

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Quote:

OriginallyPostedbyandieholland
Postmodernistsbasicallyrejecttheideathatthere'sanobjectivereality.Theyargue
thateachpersoncreatesherorhisownrealitythroughpersonalexperience.
Attributingthiskindofsolipsismtopostmodernismis,Ithink,notjustoversimplifiedbut
actuallyincorrect.Itismorethattheyrejecttheideathatrealitycanbedescribedfroma
central,privilegedpointofview.Thatone'spositionandexperienceswillinfluenceone's
perspectiveoftheworld.Thatonecannotproveanobjectivetruthbutonlyoffervarious
interpretationsofthattruthandthatthereis,intheend,noobjectivewayofprivilegingone
interpretationovertheanother.
Inaway,Marxpreemptsthisideabylinkingepistemologywiththeclassstruggle.
Quote:

OriginallyPostedbyRedMaterialist
So,whendidmodernismend?1945atAuschwitzandHiroshimamightbeagooddate.
NoonecouldpretendanymorethatWestern,liberalvalueswerethehighestvalues.
CouldanyonepretendthatWesternliberalvaluesweresuperiortoanyothersafterthe
catastropheandhumancarnageofthefirstworldwar?
Oneofthekeyculturalresponsestothe1914/18warwasDADAanditsrejectionofWestern
artisticvalues.Wasn'tthisarejectionofmodernismandthebeginningsofwhatcamelaterto
becalledpostmodernism?AndwhataboutSurrealism,whichquicklyfollowedDADA,withits
rejectionofrationalismandrealistontology?
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19thAugust2015,17:08

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Marxistwichneedmoarbooks.

DoesPostmodernismaidtheproletariatclassstruggle?
Ordoesitharmsit?
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19thAugust2015,18:52

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Quote:

OriginallyPostedbyHitTheNorth
CouldanyonepretendthatWesternliberalvaluesweresuperiortoanyothersafter
thecatastropheandhumancarnageofthefirstworldwar?
Oneofthekeyculturalresponsestothe1914/18warwasDADAanditsrejectionof
Westernartisticvalues.Wasn'tthisarejectionofmodernismandthebeginningsof
whatcamelatertobecalledpostmodernism?AndwhataboutSurrealism,which
quicklyfollowedDADA,withitsrejectionofrationalismandrealistontology?
Goodpoint.Butallwarsarecatastrophicandcausehumancarnage.TheHolocaustand
Hiroshimahavebecomesignifiersofanentirelynewkindofhumandestruction.
Dadaismdescribeditselfas"antiart,"areactionagainstnotonlythecapitalismofWWIbut
alsomodernartingeneral.Itcertainlywasarejectionofmodernism.Butitmostlydiedout
inthe20sand30s,whilemodernismcontinuedtodevelopalongwithinternationalcapitalism.
Some,inmyview,artistic,literaryexamplesofmodernismareTheSunAlsoRises,Ulysses,
Faulkner,D.H.Lawrence,modernfilm,etc.Allofthisisessentiallydifferentfrom,say,a
typicalnoveloflateVictorianism.
Marxwasfaraheadofhistimeinbeingamodernist.Butheisalsoaheadofhistimeinbeing
anantipostmodernist.AfterpomocomessocialismwhenthegreatMarxwillreturn.Notthat
Marxwouldwanttobeanicon.
Dadaismmighthavebeenareactionagainstmoderncapitalism,butitis,asMarxshowed,the
economicsystemitselfwhichproducesageneralartform.Dadaismhadtoremainareaction
untilcapitalismtransformedintosomethingelse,whichIargue,leadstopostmodernism.
So,ontheonehandwehaveareactionagainstaneconomicsystem,andontheothera
developmentoutoftheneweconomicsystem.Postmodernsareusuallyverycomfortable
withlatecapitalism.Andwhyshouldn'ttheybe?Theyareitschildren.

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Quote:

OriginallyPostedbyRedMaterialist
Goodpoint.Butallwarsarecatastrophicandcausehumancarnage.TheHolocaust
andHiroshimahavebecomesignifiersofanentirelynewkindofhumandestruction.
Sure,butthepointisn'twhichwarwasmostdestructive,butatwhichpointtheconfidenceof
modernismbegantofalterandopenupspacesforchallenge.Ifmodernismwasthechildof
thefindesiecle(whichIsuggestitwas),basedasitwasonaclaimtorationalcontrolover
theeconomyandinternationalrelations,thentheoutbreakofwarin1914wasamassive
traumatothelegitimacyofthoseclaims.
Quote:

Dadaismdescribeditselfas"antiart,"areactionagainstnotonlythecapitalismof
WWIbutalsomodernartingeneral.Itcertainlywasarejectionofmodernism.Butit
mostlydiedoutinthe20sand30s,whilemodernismcontinuedtodevelopalongwith
internationalcapitalism.
Intheageofmechanicalreproduction,noartformreallydies,butcontinuesazombie
existencewithinthecirculationofculturalcommodities(infactthisisoneoftheconditions
whichproducespostmodernisminvariousartisticfields:Dadadependeduponthe
reproductionofimagesandtextinordertosubverttheoriginal,throughmontageandradical
juxtaposition).
Quote:

Some,inmyview,artistic,literaryexamplesofmodernismareTheSunAlsoRises,
Ulysses,Faulkner,D.H.Lawrence,modernfilm,etc.Allofthisisessentiallydifferent
from,say,atypicalnoveloflateVictorianism.
Well,noneofthosewritersarelateVictorianwriters,butanyway.I'veoftenheardtheclaim
thatJoyce'sUlyssesisaworkofhighmodernism,butwhatdoyouthinkmakesitanexample
ofthemodernistnovel?
Ithinkthisisaproblemwithallattemptstoperiodisetheemergenceofpostmodernism.Not
onlydiditemergeatdifferenttimesindifferentdisciplines,butalsoitisdifficulttodefine
whatmodernismis,whichiscertainlyapreconditionforunderstandingwhatpostmodernism
is.
Arelatedproblemisthattheidentificationofmodernismisactuallysimultaneouswiththe
discoveryofpostmodernism.Itisaretrospectivecategory.T.S.Elliot,Joyce,Falkner,
StravinskiandPicasso,etc.,didnotgoabouttheirbusinessclaimingtorepresent"the
modernistschool".Itisalabelimposedbycriticswhohavetoengageinagooddealof
generalisingandframinginordertomaketheircategoriescoherent.
Anotherproblem,Iguess,isthatnoculturalmovementexistsaloneanditispreciselythe
dominantmovementwhichproducesoppositionalalternatives.Butgenerally,mostartistsand
thinkersdonotoperateconsciouslywithinthesecategories.So,forinstance,inMarx,we

haveclaimstowardrelativity(knowledgeinclasssocietyisaclasspowerandshapedbyclass
struggleandisideological)andwehaveclaimsaboutuniversalprocesses(historical
materialism).
Quote:

Dadaismmighthavebeenareactionagainstmoderncapitalism,butitis,asMarx
showed,theeconomicsystemitselfwhichproducesageneralartform.
Well,postmodernismitselfisareactiontomodernism.ButwheredoesMarxshowthatitis
"theeconomicsystemitselfwhichproducesageneralartform"?Perhapsyouruseoftheterm
"generalartform"ismistaken?ButIdoubtMarxwouldhavesubscribedtosuchacrude
formulation.Obviously,technologyandparticularrelationsofproductionshapecultural
production,butisthereanythingwithin"theeconomicsystem"whichwoulddeterminetherise
of,say,Serialism?
Quote:

Dadaismhadtoremainareactionuntilcapitalismtransformedintosomethingelse,
whichIargue,leadstopostmodernism.
Sorry,areyouclaimingthatpostmodernismissomethingwhichreplacescapitalism?Lasttime
Ilooked,westilllivedinaglobalcapitalistsystem.
Quote:

So,ontheonehandwehaveareactionagainstaneconomicsystem,andontheother
adevelopmentoutoftheneweconomicsystem.
Whichneweconomicsystemarereferringto?
Quote:

Postmodernsareusuallyverycomfortablewithlatecapitalism.Andwhyshouldn't
theybe?Theyareitschildren.
I'mconfused.Is"latecapitalism"adifferentmodeofproductionfromcapitalisminyour
opinion?
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OriginallyPostedbyHitTheNorth
I'mconfused.Is"latecapitalism"adifferentmodeofproductionfromcapitalismin
youropinion?
Yes,thatisessentiallywhatIamsaying.Latestage,monopolycapitalismisdifferentfrom
early20thcenturyimperialistcapitalism.Althoughnotanentirelynewmodebutalater
developedmode.It'sthatdifferencewhich,inmyview,determinespostmodernism.Ican't
saywhatallthedetailsarethebestanalysisIhaveseenisJameson'sCulturalLogicofLate
Capitalism.Idon'tthinkhecompletestheanalysis.
Isn'tthecapitalismof1915differentfromthecapitalismof2015?Couldtheoldimperialists
haveeverdreamedthatcapitalwouldbeasworlddominantasitistoday?Couldtheyhave
imaginedthatlessthan50peoplewouldownmorewealththanhalfofallpeopleonthe
planet.ItistruethatCecilRhodessaidthatifhecouldhewouldcolonizetheplanets,but
evenhecouldnotgetpasttheoldideaof"colonization."
Isn'thistoricalmaterialismtheideathatthemeansandmodeofproductiondetermine
philosophy,law,art,etc.?Ofcourseyoucan'tshowthataspecificnovel,film,orpaintingwas
directly,specificallydeterminedbyaspecificeconomiccondition,butneverthelessingeneral
termsisn'tthatwhatMarxmeant?
Taketwonovels,writtenbythesameauthor,intwodifferenthistorical/economiceras:The
SunAlsoRisesandTheOldManandtheSeabyHemingway.Thefirst,inmyopinion,is
classicmodernism,thelostgeneration,socialalienation,modernangst,Western,white,male
dominance,homophobia,racism,misogyny,etc.Butthelatternovel?It'scompletelyanti
social,individualistic,areturntosomekindofidealnaturalism.Howtoexplainthe
difference?(anexceptiontothisargumentwouldbeaworldhistoricalfigurelike
Shakespeare.)
Justsomerandomthoughts.But,nevertheless,Istillthinkpostmodernismisrealandisa
realproductoftheeconomicconditionsofpostwarcapitalism.

20thAugust2015,07:11

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Quote:

OriginallyPostedbyGreavyard
DoesPostmodernismaidtheproletariatclassstruggle?
Ordoesitharmsit?
Speakingasaformerpostmodernist...no,it'sreallynotausefulideologytousewhenyou
wantproletarianliberation.Classconsciousnessinvolvesconsciousnessofobjective,material
reality,andpostmodernismdoesn'tallowacknowledgementofanymaterialreality.Besides,
it'stheepitomeof"edgyliberalteenager,"ideology:itappearsrevolutionary,withits
apparentencouragementofopenmindedness,butit'sreallyjustthesameidealistnonsense
peoplehavespoutedforcenturies.
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nowhere,"TheDispossessed,UrsulaLeGuin

fkaPreteenCommunist

20thAugust2015,13:03

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Quote:

OriginallyPostedbyRedMaterialist
Butallwarsarecatastrophicandcausehumancarnage.TheHolocaustandHiroshima
havebecomesignifiersofanentirelynewkindofhumandestruction.
Precisely.MostofthereasonIfavorcommunismrelatestoeliminatingthisSwordof
Damoclesfromabovetheworld'shead.Nuclearweaponswilldestroyusmoresurelythan
climatechangewill,thoughsincetheUSSRfoldedweforgotallaboutthem.
I'mabitignorantregardingDadaorSovietAvantGardecommentsonthemontheforum
areappreciated.Iagreethelabelsforthemovementsareretrospectiveandthat'struefor
historicalerasliketheRenaissanceaswell.
__________________
HrzjjSstrxAstTnxmtnrmt"Whyareyougoingtothislandwhichisnotknowntothepeople?"(Urk.IV324,89)

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Quote:

OriginallyPostedbyRedMaterialist
Yes,thatisessentiallywhatIamsaying.Latestage,monopolycapitalismisdifferent
fromearly20thcenturyimperialistcapitalism.Althoughnotanentirelynewmode
butalaterdevelopedmode.It'sthatdifferencewhich,inmyview,determinespost
modernism.Ican'tsaywhatallthedetailsarethebestanalysisIhaveseenis
Jameson'sCulturalLogicofLateCapitalism.Idon'tthinkhecompletestheanalysis.
Fine,butweneedtobepreciseinourcategorisationandtheconceptuallevelweare
operatingon.Bothcapitalismandsocialismaremodesofproduction,butpostmodernismis
not.Itisfinetoseepostmodernismasdeterminedbythemodeofproductionbutnotas
somethingdifferentwhichcapitalismisturninginto,asyouindicateinanearlierpost.Buti
havenoproblemwithananalysiswhichseekstherootsofculturalchangeswithinthe
materialrelationsoftheday.

Quote:

Isn'thistoricalmaterialismtheideathatthemeansandmodeofproductiondetermine
philosophy,law,art,etc.?Ofcourseyoucan'tshowthataspecificnovel,film,or

paintingwasdirectly,specificallydeterminedbyaspecificeconomiccondition,but
neverthelessingeneraltermsisn'tthatwhatMarxmeant?
Yes,but...
Quote:

Taketwonovels,writtenbythesameauthor,intwodifferenthistorical/economic
eras:TheSunAlsoRisesandTheOldManandtheSeabyHemingway.Thefirst,in
myopinion,isclassicmodernism,thelostgeneration,socialalienation,modernangst,
Western,white,maledominance,homophobia,racism,misogyny,etc.Butthelatter
novel?It'scompletelyantisocial,individualistic,areturntosomekindofideal
naturalism.Howtoexplainthedifference?(anexceptiontothisargumentwouldbea
worldhistoricalfigurelikeShakespeare.)
Thedifferencecanbeexplainedwithreferencestopersonalchangesandtheexperiencesof
theauthor,rangingfromaseriesoffailedmarriages,thefailureoftherevolutioninSpain,
thedescentintoglobalwaroranyotherthingsthatcouldleadtodisenchantmentorwhatever.
I'dsuggestthatasignificantshiftinthemodeofproductionisunlikelytobeacompelling
factorinthedifferencesbetweenTheSunAlsoRises(1926)andTheOldManandtheSea
(1952).Forastart,theperiodofHemingway'sliterarycareercoincidesquitenicelywiththe
periodofFordistproductionandtheshifttowardpostFordismwasyettogetunderway
(Modernismbeingtheculturalformoftheformerandpostmodernismtheformofthelatter).
It'simportantthatwearenottoodeterministicandabstractintherelationswemakebetween
baseandsuperstructure.
Quote:

Justsomerandomthoughts.But,nevertheless,Istillthinkpostmodernismisrealand
isarealproductoftheeconomicconditionsofpostwarcapitalism.
Whatdoyoumeanby"real"though?Obviouslyitexistsasanapproach,astyleofanalysis,or
aphilosophy.Butdoyoumeanitexistsasanactualconditionofexistence?Thatthevarious
claimsitmakesaboutsocialtransformationsandcontemporarysociallifeareaccurate?
__________________
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"Therearedecadeswhennothinghappensandthereareweekswhendecadeshappen."Lenin
LasteditedbyHitTheNorthYesterdayat20:46.

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Quote:

OriginallyPostedbyHitTheNorth
Itisfinetoseepostmodernismasdeterminedbythemodeofproductionbutnotas
somethingdifferentwhichcapitalismisturninginto,asyouindicateinanearlierpost.
It'snotaneconomicsystemthatcapitalismisturninginto.Mypointwasthatitisareflection,

aphilosophicaldevelopmentoutofwhateveris"latestagecapitalism."

Quote:

Thedifferencecanbeexplainedwithreferencestopersonalchangesandthe
experiencesoftheauthor,rangingfromaseriesoffailedmarriages,thefailureofthe
revolutioninSpain,thedescentintoglobalwaroranyotherthingsthatcouldleadto
disenchantmentorwhatever.I'dsuggestthatasignificantshiftinthemodeof
productionisunlikelytobeacompellingfactorinthedifferencesbetweenTheSun
AlsoRises(1926)andTheOldManandtheSea(1952).Forastart,theperiodof
Hemingway'sliterarycareercoincidesquitenicelywiththeperiodofFordist
productionandtheshifttowardpostFordismwasyettogetunderway(Modernism
beingtheculturalformoftheformerandpostmodernismtheformofthelatter).It's
importantthatwearenottoodeterministicandabstractintherelationswemake
betweenbaseandsuperstructure.
Well,Iagree.ButIthinkthatFordistindustrialcapitalismbegantodiminish,between1945
1955orso(by1980mostmassproductionhadbeenshiftedtotheEast.)Thenfinance
capitalismemergedasthedominantmodeofproduction,atleastintheUnitedStates.
Everyonetalksabout"determinism"inMarxistanalysis.Yet,historicalmaterialismis
essentiallyaboutsocietybeingdeterminedbyamodeofproduction.Slavesocietybeing
determinedbyslavery,feudalsocietybyfeudalism,etc.
Quote:

Whatdoyoumeanby"real"though?Obviouslyitexistsasanapproach,astyleof
analysis,oraphilosophy.Butdoyoumeanitexistsasanactualconditionof
existence?Thatthevariousclaimsitmakesaboutsocialtransformationsand
contemporarysociallifeareaccurate?
Yes,asaphilosophy,butnotasaconditionofexistence,anymorethanreligionis.Itis,as
Marxsaid,amentalreflectionoftheconditionsofeconomicandsocialexistence.
Isuspectthatsomeofitsclaimsareaccurate.Whatotherconsistentphilosophyhas
developedoutofthecurrent(19452015,especiallybeginningabout1980),economicsystem?
Ifthecurrenteconomicsystemcanbedescribedas"neoliberal"thenwhatistheneoliberal
philosophicalsystem?

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