Sarvastivada Abhidharma Discussion

31/8/2558
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WhyhastheSarvastivadaAbhidammarecievedmoreattention?
bylotwellFriOct19,201211:31am
WhyhastheSarvastivadaAbhidammarecievedmoreattentioninacademicstudiesthanthe
Theravadin?ItwouldseemthatsincetheTheravadinAbhidammastillpossessesalivingtraditionit
wouldbebettersuitedforstudy?
Lotwell
lotwell
http://dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?f=41&t=10530&p=133692#p133692
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Re:WhyhastheSarvastivadaAbhidammarecievedmoreattention?
byJnanaFriOct19,20127:49pm
TherehavebeensomestudiesofTheravdaAbhidhamma,orthatincludesignificantreferencestothe
TheravdaAbhidhamma.Afewexamplesare:
BuddhistAnalysisofMatterbyY.Karunadasa.
TheDhammaTheory:PhilosophicalCornerstoneoftheAbhidhammabyY.Karunadasa.
TheTheravdaAbhidhamma:ItsInquiryIntotheNatureofConditionedRealitybyY.Karunadasa.
EarlyBuddhistMetaphysics:TheMakingofaPhilosophicalTraditionbyNoaRonkin.
AStudyoftheFiveAggregatesinTheravdaBuddhismbyMathieuBoisvert.
ACriticalAnalysisoftheJhnasinTheravdaBuddhistMeditationbyVen.Gunaratana.
TheBuddhistPathtoAwakening.AStudyoftheBodhiPakkhiyDhammbyRupertGethin.
TheNotionofDihiinTheravdaBuddhismbyPaulFuller.
Also,almostthecompleteTheravdaAbhidhammapiakahasbeentranslatedintoEnglish,aswellas
someofthecommentariesontheAbhidhammapiakatexts.
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byviniketaFriOct19,201210:13pm
lotwellwrote:ItwouldseemthatsincetheTheravadinAbhidammastillpossessesa
livingtraditionitwouldbebettersuitedforstudy?
Lesscontentioninstudyingsomethingthatisnotalivingtradition,perhaps?I'mnotsurethereismore
studyoftheAbhidamma,thatwouldtakeastudytoanswer.Ifthereis,mightitbethatthe
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SarvstivdinAbhidharmaaddsto,ratherthanreplaces,theAbhidamma?
Iftheycanseverlikeanddislike,alongwithgreed,anger,anddelusion,regardlessoftheirdifferenceinnature,they
willallaccomplishtheBuddhaPath..~SutraofCompleteEnlightenment
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byHuifengSatOct20,20123:05am
lotwellwrote:WhyhastheSarvastivadaAbhidammarecievedmoreattentioninacademic
studiesthantheTheravadin?ItwouldseemthatsincetheTheravadinAbhidammastill
possessesalivingtraditionitwouldbebettersuitedforstudy?
Lotwell
IwouldactuallysaythattheTheravadaAbhidhammahasreceivedmoreattentionthanthe
SarvastivadinAbhidharma.Forexample,allsevenTheravadaAbhidhammatextshavebeentranslated
atleastonce,alongwithothersimilarliterature,eg.theVisuddhimagga,theSangaha,etc.Ofthe
sevenSarvastivadinAbhidharmatexts,onlyoneortwohaveEnglishtranslations.
However,thepostVaibhasikamaterial,mainly(semi)Sautrantika,suchastheKosa,hasreceived
hugeattention.But,thisisnotstrictlyAbhidharma,althoughmanyreaditassuch.Infact,ifonereads
theNyananusara,itisobviousthattheVaibhasikaAbhidharmikasthoughtthattheKosa
misrepresentedtheAbhidharma.
Reasons?LaterSautrantikamaterialsuchastheKosaisveryinfluentialinclassicalIndianBuddhism.
Also,thereareSanskritversions.TheTheravadaAbhidhammaisinPali.Mostoftheactual
SarvastivadaAbhidharmamaterialisonlyinChinese.Also,theheavyweightofTibetanBuddhismin
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lookingatclassicalIndianBuddhismtheTibetantraditionshavetheKosa,knowofbutdonothave
theSarvastivadamaterialperse,andhaven'treallyheardoftheTheravadinAbhidhamma.
Allthesearefairlystandardbiasesofthemajority(thoughnotall)ofmodernWesternacademic
studiesofIndianBuddhism.
~~Huifeng
LasteditedbyHuifengonSatOct20,20123:08am,edited1timeintotal.
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BuddhistStudiesatFoGuangUniversity,Taiwan
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viniketawrote:...Ifthereis,mightitbethattheSarvstivdinAbhidharmaaddsto,rather
thanreplaces,theAbhidamma?
No,notatall,notevenclose.
Paralleltraditions.
~~Huifeng
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bypueraeternusSatOct20,20124:02am
Huifengwrote:However,thepostVaibhasikamaterial,mainly(semi)Sautrantika,such
astheKosa,hasreceivedhugeattention.But,thisisnotstrictlyAbhidharma,although
manyreaditassuch.Infact,ifonereadstheNyananusara,itisobviousthatthe
VaibhasikaAbhidharmikasthoughtthattheKosamisrepresentedtheAbhidharma.
Reasons?LaterSautrantikamaterialsuchastheKosaisveryinfluentialinclassical
IndianBuddhism.Also,thereareSanskritversions.TheTheravadaAbhidhammaisin
Pali.MostoftheactualSarvastivadaAbhidharmamaterialisonlyinChinese.Also,the
heavyweightofTibetanBuddhisminlookingatclassicalIndianBuddhismtheTibetan
traditionshavetheKosa,knowofbutdonothavetheSarvastivadamaterialperse,and
haven'treallyheardoftheTheravadinAbhidhamma.
Venerable,
Wouldyousaythat,whenitcomestoSravakayanaAbhidharmicinfluences,ChineseBuddhismleans
moretowardsorthodoxSarvastivadaAbhidharma,oralsoreliesalotontheKosa?
Ifyoubelievecertainwords,youbelievetheirhiddenarguments.Whenyoubelievesomethingis
rightorwrong,trueoffalse,youbelievetheassumptionsinthewordswhichexpressthearguments.
Suchassumptionsareoftenfullofholes,butremainmostprecioustotheconvinced.
TheOpenEndedProoffromThePanopliaProphetica
pueraeternus
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pueraeternuswrote:
Huifengwrote:However,thepostVaibhasikamaterial,mainly(semi)
Sautrantika,suchastheKosa,hasreceivedhugeattention.But,thisisnot
strictlyAbhidharma,althoughmanyreaditassuch.Infact,ifonereadsthe
Nyananusara,itisobviousthattheVaibhasikaAbhidharmikasthoughtthat
theKosamisrepresentedtheAbhidharma.
Reasons?LaterSautrantikamaterialsuchastheKosaisveryinfluentialin
classicalIndianBuddhism.Also,thereareSanskritversions.TheTheravada
AbhidhammaisinPali.MostoftheactualSarvastivadaAbhidharma
materialisonlyinChinese.Also,theheavyweightofTibetanBuddhismin
lookingatclassicalIndianBuddhismtheTibetantraditionshavetheKosa,
knowofbutdonothavetheSarvastivadamaterialperse,andhaven'treally
heardoftheTheravadinAbhidhamma.
Venerable,
Wouldyousaythat,whenitcomestoSravakayanaAbhidharmicinfluences,Chinese
BuddhismleansmoretowardsorthodoxSarvastivadaAbhidharma,oralsoreliesaloton
theKosa?
Well,veryfewifanydoanythingstraightAbhidharmaatallnow,orforthelast1000yrsorso.
Though,frompeoplelikeYinShunandthelike,thenthey'lllookatallofthem.Theytendnottohave
theeverythingisintheKosaattitudethatIoftenseeintheWest(duetotheabovereasons).Ifthey
wantVaibhasika,thenit'stheVibhasa,forexample.IftheywantSautrantika,thenit'stheKosa,its
commentaries,andthelike.
Andintermsofinfluence,thenit'susuallycontraAbhidharma,ratherthanfromAbhidharma.The
MahaprajnaparamitaUpadesa(Dazhidulun)hasahugeamountofAbhidharmamaterial,anotquite
orthodoxKasmirVaibhasikabutmoreGandharinflavor,atthat.Butthen,it'sallshotdowninablaze
ofMadhyamaka.AndthoseotherearlyMadhyamakatexts,eg.theZhonglun,havealotofvaried
Abhidharmamaterialinthemtoo,likewiseJizangandhisline.Andalsothe*Satyasiddhi(Chengshi
lun),whichissortofMahasamghikaontopofVaibhasika/Sautrantikastuff.
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It'sallthere,anditdependsonthetext,theauthor,andsoforth,whetherit'sclassicalandmodern
ChineseBuddhism.
Andnow,becausemorestufffromthePaliisavailableinChinese(orJapanese),modernChinese
Buddhismcanalsoconsiderthat,too.It'swideopen,andgettingwider.
~~Huifeng
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bypueraeternusSatOct20,20125:22am
ThanksVenerable,forthedetailedreply!
HopefullywiththegrowinginfluenceofChina,therewillbegreaterinterest,focusandresourceson
academicresearchoftherichandvariedheritageofChineseBuddhism.
IntermsofSravakayanaAbhidharma,IguessthenextlogicalareaoffocusintranslatingintoEnglish
andacademicresearchwouldbetheMahavibhasa,especiallygiventhetrailblazingworkdoneby
Ven.Dhammajoti.
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byviniketaSatOct20,20127:08pm
Huifengwrote:
viniketawrote:...Ifthereis,mightitbethattheSarvstivdinAbhidharma
addsto,ratherthanreplaces,theAbhidamma?
Paralleltraditions.
~~Huifeng
Thankyouforthecorrection,Venerable.IknewsomeonewouldlopthatbranchoffassoonasI
climbedoutonit.
So,Igobacktolookatsources.Isupposetherearemorerecentlystudiesthathavebeendonesince
Warder,Potter,etc.,butI'mnotsureifnewevidencehasbeenfoundthatsuggeststhatthethreemajor
linesAbhidhamma/Abhidharmadevelopmentdidnotcomefromcommon,earliersources.Thethree
linesPotterdiscussesaretheAbhidhammapiakaandtheSarvstivdinandYogcraAbhidharma:
http://books.google.com/books?id=pH8ZCC...ma&f=false
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byHuifengSunOct21,20128:01am
viniketawrote:
Huifengwrote:
viniketawrote:...Ifthereis,mightitbethattheSarvstivdin
Abhidharmaaddsto,ratherthanreplaces,theAbhidamma?
Paralleltraditions.
~~Huifeng
Thankyouforthecorrection,Venerable.Iknewsomeonewouldlopthatbranchoffas
soonasIclimbedoutonit.
So,Igobacktolookatsources.Isupposetherearemorerecentlystudiesthathavebeen
donesinceWarder,Potter,etc.,butI'mnotsureifnewevidencehasbeenfoundthat
suggeststhatthethreemajorlinesAbhidhamma/Abhidharmadevelopmentdidnotcome
fromcommon,earliersources.ThethreelinesPotterdiscussesarethe
AbhidhammapiakaandtheSarvstivdinandYogcraAbhidharma:
http://books.google.com/books?id=pH8ZCC...ma&f=false
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TheideaoftheSariputraabhidharmaAstraasprotoorparalleltotheVibhangaand
Dharmaskandhapadaremains.Butthatisnotwhattoseemedtobesayinginyourpreviouspost.
~~Huifeng
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byviniketaMonOct22,20122:11am
Huifengwrote:TheideaoftheSariputraabhidharmaAstraasprotoorparalleltothe
VibhangaandDharmaskandhapadaremains.Butthatisnotwhattoseemedtobesaying
inyourpreviouspost.
Mypreviouspostwasunclear,aswasmymemory...hencethereturntosources.Indeed,givenPotter,
the'Theravada'Abhidammaseemstohavebeenthemostadvanced.Thankyou,Venerable.
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byHuifengMonOct22,20124:00am
Whilewe'reonthesubject,I'dliketodraweveryone'sattentionto:
http://www.gampoabbey.org/kosharesources.php
AbhidharmakoaBhyaofVasubandhu
TheTreasuryoftheAbhidharmaandits(Auto)commentary
TranslatedintoFrenchbyLouisdeLaVallePoussin
AnnotedEnglishTranslationbyGelongLodrSangpo
WithaNewIntroductionbyBhikkhuKLDhammajoti
FourVolumes:2898pagesDelhi:MotilalBanarsidass2012
IalreadyhavemyowncopiesfourmassivetomesfromBhanteDhammajoti.
~~Huifeng
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Re:WhyhastheSarvastivadaAbhidarmarecievedmoreattention?
byHuifengMonOct22,20124:05am
Whileonadvertisingmode:
http://www.buddhism.hku.hk/Publications.html
StufffromProf.BhanteKLDhammajotionSarvastivadinandrelatedAbhidharma,
andProf.YKarunadasaontheTheravadaAbhidhamma.
Seealso:http://www.scribd.com/doc/106679207/Bhi...Abhidharma
ThoughnotethatthisistheThirdEditiononly,theFourthEditionisalreadyout,slightlybetter
formatting,butnotmuchdifferenceatall.(Exceptcorrectingsomeofmyeditorialscrewups...)
~~Huifeng
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bypueraeternusMonOct22,20124:31am
Huifengwrote:TranslatedintoFrenchbyLouisdeLaVallePoussin
AnnotedEnglishTranslationbyGelongLodrSangpo
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WithaNewIntroductionbyBhikkhuKLDhammajoti
FourVolumes:2898pagesDelhi:MotilalBanarsidass2012[/i]
*salivate**slurp*
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Re:WhyhastheSarvastivadaAbhidammarecievedmoreattenti
byAemiliusMonMar25,201310:52am
lotwellwrote:WhyhastheSarvastivadaAbhidammarecievedmoreattentioninacademic
studiesthantheTheravadin?ItwouldseemthatsincetheTheravadinAbhidammastill
possessesalivingtraditionitwouldbebettersuitedforstudy?
Lotwell
Sarvastivadaabhidharmaismoreinteresting,anditisalivingtradition,sarvastivadinworksand
influenceweretransmittedtoTibet,China,Mongolia,Japan,Korea,etc...
svaha
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