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In July 1983, Michigan: The magazine of the Detroit News, ran a story with
the eye-catching title The Punk Revolt. The article focused on the
lives of two young Detroit punk rock musicians: John Brannon (21)
and Larissa Strickland (23). The pair shared a cramped two-bedroom
apartment above the old Womens City Club in the infamous Cass
Corridor, an area in Detroit defined as being between I-75 at its
southern end and Wayne State University to the north, while stretching
from Woodward Avenue to the east and Third Street to the west.
Following decades of upheaval, the corridor by the early 1980s was
marked by blight and abandonment. To fellow punk musician Todd
Swalla (drummer for the seminal hardcore punk band the Necros), the
Cass Corridor was the worst neighborhood in the city. Most of the
neighborhood was burned out during the sixties riots and not much
was left except for dope houses.2
Yet the state of the neighbourhood, as Brannon and Strickland told
Michigan, was actually one of the reasons they fled the suburbs
and moved to this part of Detroit. Brannon hailed from the affluent
suburb of Grosse Point, where his father was an Episcopalian minister.
Strickland shared similar suburban roots. In the Cass Corridor, the two
could find a cheap apartment large enough to house them and all of
their musical equipment or they could squat in a vacant building and
live for free. The duo also noted that there were plenty of abandoned
Cultural History 4.1 (2015): 1941
DOI: 10.3366/cult.2015.0082
f Edinburgh University Press
www.euppublishing.com/journal/cult
19
Cultural History
structures throughout the neighbourhood to turn into things like
practice studios, performance spaces and art galleries, all without any
interference from Detroit city officials or police officers. The Cass
Corridor was, in many ways, a blank canvas for such young artists.3
However, the main reason both Brannon and Strickland decided to
move to the Cass Corridor was because of what it was not: a dull postWorld War II suburb. The young musicians relayed a by-then-familiar
tale of post-war sterility and malaise. Commenting on why he both
got into punk rock and left the comfortable confines of Grosse Point,
Brannon told the Detroit News reporter that [a] lot of this is to stamp
out boredom. Weve got to stamp out boredom. I cant really explain
why I do this. I just know I have to. Strickland offered a similar critique
of suburban ennui and positioned punk rock as speaking directly to
this soulless atmosphere, not only in Detroit but in suburbs across
America. Like hardcore [punk]4 is massive in Los Angeles, Strickland
continued.
Thats because the suburb is a ghetto in L.A. Its hard to escape. Like
every house is alike. Theres no individuality. The kids are really middle
class, but not really wealthy. Theyre just sort of nowhere. Youre
expected to go to college, get married, get a job and get a place in the
suburbs. Your whole life seemed already planned out.
20
Fig. 1 The front cover of Negative Approachs debut EP, Touch and
Go Records, no. 7 (1982). Playing on the idea of hardcore punk as
the devils music , the cover features a still photograph of a possessed
Linda Blair from the film The Exorcist.
21
Cultural History
generally conservative, a reality that helped set the stage for the
economic policies associated with the Reagan Revolution and the
me-first, yuppified culture of the 1980s. As Cowie notes:
[T]he range of working-class possibilities in popular culture was
diminished by the second half of the 1970s. Working-class story lines
hardened into three options: escape ones class position; find ways to
forget it; or, lacking any civic outlets, bury its pains deep inside.9
22
23
Cultural History
amid a severe social crisis, punk rockers embraced a narrative
of declension as they simultaneously ushered in the condition of
postmodernity with cries of no future and no values. For such
disaffected individuals, it proved plausible to conclude that if nothing
is true, then nothing is possible. As Moore concludes, ultimately and
quite ominously the narrative of the rise of punk took on its greatest
significance as a harbinger of the descent into a callous society
devoid of alternatives.16
Moore is right to note that a certain brand of nihilism informed
some of early American punk. Yet in his attempt to create a dialectic
interplay between culture and such larger contexts (economic ones,
most specifically), Moore puts too much emphasis on the latter, to the
detriment of the agency of those making up the former. Yes, the forces
of global capitalism played a role in pushing American punk in certain
dark directions. Yet a ground-level examination of those associated
with the early history of Touch and Go Records highlights that such
individuals were not only reactive, nor were they simply acted upon by
forces outside of their control. Viewed from such an inward-looking
perspective, one sees a group of musicians, writers and others set on
creating a new, viable art form, one that sought to critique and replace
an older dominant culture that had come to be perceived as lacking
both vitality and innovation. Cultural realignment, rather than political
or class realignment, became the end result of such a process.
Therefore, production, in addition to reception, takes centre stage in
this article, allowing for a focus on a genre of music that is often
dismissed as unmusical and thereby unworthy of serious scholarly
attention. A focus on the micro-level of early American punk does
reveal, as Moore usefully documents, a distinct break from the culture
of the 1960s that preceded them: those involved with Touch and
Go had little love for what the decade had come to embody by the
late 1970s. However, the values that Moore and others saw punk as
hell-bent on annihilating, including community and possibility, were
not destroyed but rather taken apart and redefined for a new cultural
era. In the case of Touch and Go, no future and no values can
better be read as no past and new values. Here, the end of history
signified not only a moment of crisis but also one of opportunity.
If nothing was true, in other words, everything was possible at least in
the realm of culture.17
One sees this more hopeful vision of American punk most clearly
when another component is added to this dialectic interplay: the role
of urban space. Often overlooked by those studying the roots of
American punk, the spatial elements of cities across the United States
24
25
Cultural History
culture. The radical culture created by Detroit punk rockers points to
the roots of this shift, as their efforts worked to destabilize mainstream
American music culture while providing both the inspiration and space
necessary for continued cultural innovation. These individuals, in
other words, were doing more than simply staying alive. They were
trying to create a culture, one in direct opposition to the popular
culture that reigned supreme at that historical moment.20
Yet this act of cultural reinvention, made possible by the changing
conditions of Detroit, was also heavily informed by the characteristics
of those doing the reinventing. The racial and class status of artists like
Strickland and Brannon, along with their drive to create something
new, afforded them both the means and the intellectual space to see
the city as little more than a blank slate. Such musicians wanted to
change music; they didnt necessarily want to change the city or even
begin to deal with the histories that continued to act on urban centres
like Detroit. It is this complicated legacy that can help us better
understand not only the continuing evolution of American punk rock
but also the continuing evolution of American cities. This fixation on
cultural upheaval in Detroit as opposed to political and/or economic
change impacted more than music, in the Motor City and elsewhere.
It also played a role in the spatial development of the city itself.
Fuck the Past. Support the New : The Birth of Touch and Go fanzine
The roots of Touch and Go Records can be traced back to the printing
of 100 copies of the first issue of Touch and Go fanzine in November
1979 in East Lansing, Michigan. From the first issue co-editors Dave
Stimson and Robert Vermeulen (writing under the nom de plume
Tesco Vee) strongly sought to make the point that the emerging
punk scene they were championing was distinctly different from
the counterculture of the 1960s and from those who came to
scavenge the corpse of that previous moment. In the not-so-subtly
titled article Kill the Hippies! , Stimson excoriated those who clung to
this past:
You hippies long for the days of peace and music and love, those
which were embodied within the Woodstock festival. Unable to relive
that era, you cling desperately to its music or a variation on the same
theme. Its like dragging around the corpse of your dead dog hoping to
perpetuate that old feeling between you and your pet. All that happens is
that the stench becomes more and more vile. Dry up and blow away,
because theres no place for you. The new music is here, and its here
to stay.21
26
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Cultural History
mainstream American culture that the music associated with the scene
had once been able to provide. You see, Stimson continued, the
hippies control the airwaves, for it was they who first implemented FM
as a musical alternative to the pap that was being pushed by the AM
stations. Based on the premiss that radio could and should be used in
the advancement for the growth of popular music. Yet by 1979 it had
become the case that FM stations no longer adhere to that kind of
philosophy. Now, they have become static, having locked themselves
into a late 60s early 70s timewarp. Innovation and creativity have been
shunned in favor of hyped, schlocky commercialism .22
More specifically, the co-editors took issue with what the local radio
station WILS-FM (101.7 FM) was playing or not playing within the
Lansing metropolitan area. For much of the time, the station was
dedicated to the album-oriented rock format, with a heavy emphasis on
bands such as REO Speedwagon, Kansas and Styx. Yet Stimson even
took issue with variations to this format, particularly DJ Shaun
Hendrixs Sunday night New Wave show. To Stimson, Hendrix
had little knowledge of the vast amount of music that was emerging
to challenge the rock and roll the station relied so heavily on.
Shaun Hendrix, wrote Stimson, is the biggest wanking, scumbait
DJ in Lansing [E]ach and every Sunday night this lardbrain proves
to us that his knowledge of new wave goes absolutely no farther
than Billboard magazine . The only advice Stimson could muster for
Hendrix was to [a]dmit youre shit and leave this stuff to the people
who know something about it.23
One of the new wave bands that Hendrix championed on his weekly
show was The Romantics, a Detroit-based band that would go on to
international success with their 1983 song Talking in Your Sleep. Yet,
to Tesco Vee, the radio-friendly aesthetics of the band put them in the
camp of artists willing to simply continue to mindlessly embrace
the pop sounds popularized during the 1960s. Out of the cyclicly [sic]
contrived maelstrom of american pop culture, Vee wrote in a piece
on The Romantics, oozes but another glob of stench reeking of the
fucking 60s. Making matters worse was that the band called Michigan
home. The midwest, Vee continued, once supposedly a hotbed of
music now lays dormant due in part to archaic FM programming,
and lack of venues in which new bands can cultivate a sound and a
following.24
This dearth of places for new bands to perform became a central
component of Touch and Gos critique of the regional music scene of
the late 1970s. On the one hand, by the late 1970s clubs throughout
the Midwest had come to favour cover bands over acts performing
28
29
Cultural History
having a sound unlike any of their midwestern counterparts. Their
45 is the areas best attempt at catching a bands live sound on record.
Moreover, the reviewer approvingly compared their sound to the
UK-based Cabaret Voltaire, an act who had gotten their start in 1973
and who sounded little like the punk music that was quickly taking root
throughout Michigan.28
Stimson heard in such acts the rebellious sound of earlier rock
and roll that the mainstream music scene of the 1970s had worked
to discourage and that punk and its ilk could potentially restore. To
Stimson, record company executives had sufficiently brainwashed
radio into believing that punk and rock n roll are two distinct
entities. The popular bands of the late 1970s, including the likes of
Styx, Toto and Molly Hatchet, could not be considered rock music.
Let me ask you, Stimson continued, what does some guy noodling
on his guitar for God knows how long have to do with rock and
roll. Absolutely nothing. In the face of what Touch and Go saw as nonconfrontational drivel, any sort of return to the unruly spirit of rock
and roll was indeed novel. To drive the freshness of this moment
home, the back cover of Touch and Gos issue 3 was adorned, under a
picture of another UK performer, Siouxsie Sioux, with the slogan
Fuck the Past. Support the New.29
Sick of talk: The rise of Touch and Go Records
In addition to reviewing the latest punk albums, Touch and Go fanzine
also went out of its way to tell its readers where they could go to
purchase these records. Issue 12, for example, provided a guide to
record stores throughout Michigan, highlighting East Lansings Flat
Black and Circular, Ann Arbors Schoolkids Records and Make Waves,
and Dearborns Dearborn Music. The next logical step was for the
magazine to put out its own records, a move they announced in the
introduction to issue 12: As u may have gathered were releasing
the first single on our rekord [sic] label. Buy one and prove it to
yourself theres some life in the Midwest.30 The following
issue featured an advertisement for the fanzines fledgling label,
appropriately named Touch and Go Records. The advertisement
featured the Necros debut EP (commonly referred to as the Sex Drive
EP), along with The Fixs Vengeance b/w In this Town EP. Perhaps not
surprisingly, the Touch and Go co-editors used this issue to promote
their two bands, as issue 13 featured interviews with both the Necros
and The Fix. For Tesco Vee, such bands, as he noted in the
introduction to the Necros interview, were finally giving the
Midwest a tad of credibility and self respect.31
30
Fig. 3 The front cover of the Necros Sex Drive EP, Touch and Go Records, no. 1
(1981). The minimal sound of early hardcore punk was often echoed by an
equally sparse visual aesthetic.
31
Cultural History
This blunt critique of suburbia was married to an equally
straightforward approach to musicianship. As the first generation of
punk evolved into an artier brand of post-punk, the Necros pushed
the original punk formula to its breaking point. Songs like the title
track from the I.Q. 32 EP were played at a breakneck pace and wasted
little time in delivering a frenzied jolt of energy (I.Q. 32 clocked
in at a sprightly twenty-three seconds). Such a stripped-down, to-thepoint aesthetic was intentional. As Necros vocalist Barry Henssler
explained:
We saw what we were doing as something entirely different Most punk
rock, like the Sex Pistols, was essentially Chuck Berry riffs revved up. We
were taking the sound and idea of impact and extending it. Rather than
just one impact it was 60 impacts per minute. And people reacted
physically to that.33
32
33
Cultural History
34
For The Fix vocalist Steve Miller, among others, such a deserted urban
setting quickly brought about a strong sense of community among
35
Cultural History
those who worked to literally build the Freezer. To Negative Approach
vocalist John Brannon, the participatory nature of the communitybuilding process at the Freezer fully informed the feel of the space, as
well as the scene itself. Commenting on shows at the Freezer, Brannon
noted, The whole thing about being in a band at that point, there
was no separation between the kids and the audience and whos on
stage. It was music for the people. Equally important, the desolate
environment of the Freezer also allowed the emerging genre of
hardcore punk to see itself as distinct from the broader historical
currents that had previously worked to define music in the city. You
were aware of its [the citys] history from the 1960s , explained Miller,
but not that aware. We really felt like we were doing something new.
It was kind of like Fuck history. Were making history.44
Perhaps not surprisingly, such individuals were also unaware of
earlier artistic movements that had occupied the Cass Corridor. More
specifically, the neighbourhood, according to art historian Julia R.
Myers, had witnessed an intense efflorescence of artistic activity in the
late 1960s and the 1970s , as visual artists such as Gordon Newton,
John Egner, Michael Luchs and Robert Sestok rooted themselves, and
their work, in the gritty environment of the Cass Corridor. These artists
practised what some art critics came to call industrial expressionism,
as their work reflected the danger and decay of a declining, postindustrial Detroit. Yet hardcore punk fan Greg Bokor who had
moved to the Cass Corridor in 1981 from Hudsonville, Michigan, to
attend art school at the nearby Center for Creative Studies knew
nothing about this history. I wanted to be near the music, explained
Bokor. I was there for the music.45
This ambivalent relationship with history carried over into
interactions with the predominantly low-income African American
population of the Cass Corridor. No allegiances were formed There
was never any real contact, recalls Barry Henssler and the two camps,
according to him and other white punk rockers, generally left each
other alone. There was no attempt to build solidarity with the African
American population of the community, or to even come to terms
with the culture of a group that seemed to share a similar narrative
of alienation from mainstream American society. The ironies of such
racial as well as cultural isolation were not lost on musicians like Rob
Michaels, who explains, The funny thing about it though was for these
kids to find somewhere to play, they had to find some shitty storefront
in the ghetto. So it was the soul music of the suburbs that had to be
played in the inner city. The suburbs these young people called
home had no place for such cultural expression. This scene
36
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Cultural History
alternative music genre that would sweep the airwaves by the early
1990s and, in the process, helped launch the careers of such genredefining acts as the Jesus Lizard, Urge Overkill, TV on the Radio and
the Yeah Yeah Yeahs (among others), all of whom put out records
on Touch and Go. The label even inspired such legendary musicians
as Nirvanas Kurt Cobain (who reportedly sent the label his bands
first demo tape, hoping they would agree to put out Nirvanas
debut album) and such important independent record labels as Drag
City, Kill Rock Stars and Merge Records. It is with this cultural and
not political or economic legacy in mind that we must come to
understand the importance of the rise of American punk. And it is with
this cultural legacy in mind that we see just how the environment of
late twentieth-century Detroit provided the perfect setting for the
beginnings of this revolution.48
Notes
1. John Brannon, quoted in Lowell Cauffiel, The Punk Revolt , Michigan:
The magazine of the Detroit News, 10 July 1982, 12+ (p. 13).
2. Cauffiel, The Punk Revolt ; Swalla, quoted in Tony Rettman, Why be Something that
Youre Not: Detroit Hardcore, 19791985 (Huntington Beach, CA: Revelation Records,
2010), p. 85.
3. Cauffiel, The Punk Revolt , p. 13.
4. Emerging in the late 1970s, hardcore punk built on the sound and aesthetic of the
first wave of punk rock associated with the mid-1970s. To music historian Steven
Blush, hardcore punk, played faster than earlier punk rock, was an extreme: the
absolute most Punk . It is this genre of hardcore punk that will be the focus of this
essay. See Blush, American Hardcore: A Tribal History (Los Angeles: Feral House,
2001), p. 18.
5. Cauffiel, The Punk Revolt , p. 13.
6. Cauffiel, The Punk Revolt , p. 13; Negative Approach, Lead Song , Negative
00
Approach, 7 EP (Touch and Go Records, Lansing, MI, 1982).
7. Wilbur C. Rich, Coleman Young and Detroit Politics: From Social Activist to Power Broker
(Detroit: Wayne State University Press, 1999), p. 23.
8. Jefferson Cowie, Stayin Alive: The 1970s and the Last Days of the Working Class (New
York: New Press, 2010), p. 11.
9. Ibid., p. 17.
10. Ibid., p 325.
11. Michelle Phillipov, Haunted by the Spirit of 77: Punk Studies and the Persistence
of Politics , Continuum: Journal of Media & Cultural Studies, 20:3 (2006), pp. 38393
(383).
12. Kevin Mattson, Did Punk Matter? Analyzing the Practices of a Youth Subculture
during the 1980s , American Studies, 42:1 (2001), pp. 6997 (77, 78).
13. Dick Hebdige, Subculture: The Meaning of Style (New York: Routledge, 1979);
Susan Willis, Hardcore: Subculture American Style , Critical Inquiry, 19:2 (1993),
pp. 36583 (367). In fact, Willis gets wrong the name of the one hardcore punk
band she mentions in her essay: the Washington, D.C.-based hardcore punk band
38
14.
15.
16.
17.
18.
19.
20.
Bad Brains is referred to as Bad Brain (p. 373). Willis also curiously reports that
eighty percent of a hardcore punks wardrobe is likely to be black; the remainder is
often white or grey (p. 369). There is no indication of how she came to such a
conclusion.
This is not a comprehensive institutional or social history of an independent
record label or a burgeoning American hardcore punk rock scene; I pay very
little attention to the day-to-day workings of such things. Recent works by such
authors as Tony Rettman and Steve Miller provide such useful on-the-ground
accounts of how punk operated in such Midwestern cities as Detroit in the late
1970s and early 1980s. Rather, it is an attempt to see how a number of actors used
the genre of punk as a means to interact with late-twentieth-century American
culture. See Rettmans Why be Something that Youre Not and Millers Detroit Rock City:
The Uncensored History of Rock n Roll in Americas Loudest City (Boston: Da Capo,
2013).
Ryan Moore, Sells Like Teen Spirit: Music, Youth Culture, and Social Crisis (New York:
New York University Press, 2010), p. 37.
Ibid., p. 37.
Here I am influenced by Kevin Mattsons explicit challenge to Hebdiges
fetishization of consumption in subculture theory. Mattson draws our attention
to matters related to cultural production and the way those involved in American
punk rock formed a robust community of producers through independently
creating musical commodities (sold through alternative networks) . Mattson, Did
Punk Matter? , p. 72.
Tamar Jacoby, Someone Elses House: Americas Unfinished Struggle for Integration (New
York: Free Press, 1998), pp. 238, 294. For the definitive work on post-war Detroit,
see Thomas Sugrues Origins of the Urban Crisis: Race and Inequality in Postwar Detroit
(Princeton, NJ: Princeton University Press, 1996).
Such works as Sugrues Origins of the Urban Crisis, Colin Gordons Mapping Decline:
St. Louis and the Fate of the American City (Philadelphia: University of Pennsylvania
Press, 2008), and Jefferson Cowie and Joseph Heathcotts Beyond the Ruins: The
Meanings of Deindustrialization (Ithaca, NY: Cornell University Press, 2003) relay the
now-familiar story of the damage wrought by deindustrialization in cities across the
United States. This article does not seek to ignore such damage; instead, it seeks to
begin to present the cultural side of a process that is often discussed primarily in
economic terms. Attention is therefore drawn to the ways in which one set of actors
responded to such environments as they struggled to make an American city more
livable. For a description of post-industrial Detroit as Third World see Zeev
Chafets, Devils Night: And Other True Tales of Detroit (New York: Random House,
1990), p. 121.
See Thomas Franks The Conquest of Cool: Business Culture, Counterculture, and the Rise
of Hip Consumerism (Chicago: University of Chicago Press, 1997) for more on the
seismic cultural shifts of the late twentieth century and on the ways that previously
underground cultures came to have pronounced impacts on the broader culture of
the United States. With Franks nuanced examination of the world of American
advertising in mind, I use the phrase radical culture, rather than a culture of
radicalism, consciously and carefully. While critical of the political and economic
trends of their day, the actors discussed in this article were more interested in
fomenting a type of cultural upheaval. Such ambivalence towards the institutions
that controlled American political and economic life may help us better understand
39
Cultural History
21.
22.
23.
24.
25.
26.
27.
28.
29.
30.
31.
32.
33.
34.
35.
36.
37.
38.
39.
40.
41.
42.
43.
44.
45.
46.
how and why the aesthetics of punk rock so quickly became a part of American
mainstream culture.
Dave Stimson, Kill the Hippies! , Touch and Go, no. 1 (November 1979), p. 5. All
references to Touch and Go magazine are drawn from Steve Miller (ed.), Touch and
Go: The Complete Hardcore Punk Zine 79 83 (New York: Bazillion Points, 2010). All
issues of the magazine are reproduced in this one volume.
Ibid., p. 5.
Dave Stimson, untitled editorial, Touch and Go, no. 2 (December 1979), p. 23.
Tesco Vee, Romantics , Touch and Go, no. 2 (December 1979), p. 24.
Dave Stimson, Drop Dead WILS , Touch and Go, no. 2 (December 1979), p. 32.
Dave Stimson, The death of a hippies dream , Touch and Go, no. 1 (November
1979), p. 3.
Ibid., p. 3.
Algebra Mothers-Flirt-Coldcock-The Cubes Live at the Ranch , Touch and Go, no. 1
(November 1979), p. 4.
Dave Stimson, Comment , Touch and Go, no. 3 (January 1980), p. 47; back cover of
Touch and Go, no. 3 (January 1980), p. 59.
Touch and Go , Touch and Go, no. 12 (April 1981), p. 239.
Tesco Vee, Necros , Touch and Go, no. 13 (June 1981), p. 267.
00
The Necros, Public High School , I.Q. 32, 7 EP (Touch and Go Records/
00
Dischord Records, Lansing, MI, 1981); the Necros, Police Brutality , Sex Drive, 7
EP (Touch and Go Records, Lansing, MI, 1981).
Barry Henssler, interview by Michael H. Carriere, 25 February 2014.
Steve Miller, interview by Michael H. Carriere, 19 February 2014; Dave Stimson,
The Fix , Touch and Go, no. 9 (November 1980), p. 164.
Rob Michaels, interview by Michael H. Carriere, 17 February 2014.
Ibid.
Introduction , Touch and Go, no. 18 (March 1982), p. 381.
Rettman, Why be Something that Youre Not, p. 83.
Dave Rice, interview by Michael H. Carriere, 25 February 2014. For more on the
events of 1967 in Detroit, see Sidney Fine, Violence in the Model City: The Cavanagh
Administration, Race Relations, and the Detroit Riot of 1967 (Ann Arbor, MI: University
of Michigan Press, 1989). For the history of the Cass Corridor, see Armando
Delicato and Elias Khalil, Detroits Cass Corridor (Charleston, SC: Arcadia, 2012).
Dave Rice, interview by Michael H. Carriere, 25 February 2014.
Barry Henssler, interview by Michael H. Carriere, 25 February 2014; Rob Michaels,
interview by Michael H. Carriere, 17 February 2014; Rettman, Why be Something that
Youre Not, p. 162.
Barry Henssler, interview by Michael H. Carriere, 25 February 2014.
Corey Rusk, interview by Michael H. Carriere, 18 August 2006.
John Brannon, quoted in Miller, Detroit Rock City, p. 211; Steve Miller, interview by
Michael H. Carriere, 19 February 2014.
Julia R. Myers, Subverting Modernism: Cass Corridor Revisited 19661980 (Detroit:
Wayne State University Press, 2013), pp. 1, 3, 4; Greg Bokor, interview by Michael
H. Carriere, 18 February 2014. Tellingly, Myerss work makes no mention of the
Detroit punk scene that came to exist in the Cass Corridor towards the end of the
period she studies.
Barry Henssler, interview by Michael H. Carriere, 25 February 2014; Michaels,
quoted in Rettman, Why be Something that Youre Not, p. 94. While it is beyond the
40
41