Hans Hollein, uz Petera Eisenmana, Aratu Izosakija, Franka Gehryja, pripada vrhunskoj skupini arhitekata

svoje generacije. Taj dobitnik najprestinije nagrade za arhitekturu Pritzker (1985.) prisutan je na svjetskoj
arhitektonskoj sceni od ranih ezdesetih godina. Njegovi su koncepti i realizacije izvrili znaajan utjecaj trgovina
Retti revolucionirala je gradnju trgovina; njegov muzej u Mnchengladbchu revolucionirao je tematiku muzeja,
ali i dokinuo granicu izmeu kue i grada, kue i krajolika. Hollein, iji se radovi nalaze u najpoznatijim muzejima

razgovarali u Beu 05.12.2004. interviewed

in Vienna, December 5th 2004 by
VERA GRIMMER, SAA BRADI,
ANDRIJA RUSAN

(MOMA, Centar Pompidou, Stedelijk Museum, itd.), suvereno prelazi granice izmeu arhitekture, skulpture,
slikarstva, konceptualne umjetnosti. Njegovi koncepti i manifesti jednako su aktualni i uzbudljivi danas kao i u
vrijeme njihova nastanka.
Hans Hollein belongs to a generation of splendid architects such as Peter Eisenman, Arat Izosaki, and Frank Gehry. In
1985 he received the prestigious Pritzker Award for architecture. He has been present on the international architectural
scene since the early 1960s. His ideas and buildings have influenced a great many people; his Retti Candle Shop
revolutionised small store design, his Museum in Mnhengladbach revolutionised the concept of the museum and
cancelled out the distinction between the house and the city, between the house and the landscape. His work is found
in the worlds greatest museums such as MOMA, the Pompidou Centre and the Stedelijk Museum. Hollein masterfully
straddles the lines between architecture, sculpture, painting and conceptual art. His ideas and manifestos are as
current and thrilling today as when they first appeared.

hans hollein

PROTIV TOGA SAM DA

ARHITEKTURA BUDE
NEUTRALNA
I AM AGAINST
ARCHITECTURE BEING
NEUTRAL
oris

oris

Od ranih ezdesetih sve do danas vi ste prostor za

Ever since the early sixties, you have kept on ex

arhitekturu neprekidno proirivali. U tome smislu svi

panding the space for architecture. In that sense

smo mi vai dunici. Vaa prisutnost i relevancija

we are all indebted to you. Your presence and

neosporna je desetljeima. Smatrate li da je tome

relevance have been unquestionable for decades

uzrok izmeu ostalog i postojanost vaih koncepata

now. Do you think that the cause of this has been,

u tom smislu da stojite iza svojih ideja i danas kao i

among other things, the perseverance of your

u vrijeme njihova nastanka.

concepts, in the sense that you stand behind your

ideas equally today as when they first appeared?

82

fotografija photo by SINA BANIAHMAD

The English version is translated from
German

hans hollein

hans hollein

Da, to je tako. Stojim iza svojih

Yes, it is exactly like that.

ranijih misli i koncepata jo i

I stand behind my earlier

danas. Na odreene koncepte

thoughts and concepts even

mogu se nadovezati i nakon

today. I can tie into specific con

mnogo godina ako se za odre

cepts even after many years, if

enu ideju nae realizacija.

a realization can be found for

Sigurno, ovjek se tokom de

that specific idea. Certainly, a

setljea razvija, no kod mene

person develops throughout

ne postoji period koji bih rado

the decades, but with me there

zaboravio, s kojim vie ne bih

is no time period that I would

htio imati posla. Od mojih

rather forget or with which

prvih crtea i projekata pa

I would no longer like to be

sve do danas moi ete vidje

associated. From my earliest

ti odreeni kontinuitet, ali s

drawings and projects and up

moje strane i uvjerenje da oni i

to today, you can see a certain

nadalje za mene vae. Neki od

continuity, but from my end,

tih koncepata bili su i osnova

also the conviction that they

mog razmiljanja. Iako se to

continue to be valid for me.

razmiljanje diferenciralo, pa i

Some of these concepts were

postajalo sloenije, nikad nije

the basis of my reflections.

dolo do potpunog prijelaza u

Even if those reflections were

neku drugu sferu.

differentiated, and became

more complex, this never came

oris

to a complete switc hing to

Jedna crvena nit prolazi vaim

some other sphere.

radovima rane, povrede glat

kih ploha od objekata na

oris

Venecijanskom bijenalu 1972.

A recurring theme passes

(Svakodnevne situacije) do

through all your works

draguljarnice Schullin sa zlat

wounds or disfigurements of

nom ranom na poliranoj gra

smooth surfaces from the

nitnoj plohi.

objects at the Venice Bien

nale 1972 (Everyday situa

hans hollein

tions) to the Schullin Jewellery

Ne bih to tako formulirao, to je

Shop with its gold wound on

gotovo preslikovito vieno. U

the polished granite surface.

mom radu nema jasnih grani

84

ca, postoje prijelazi izmeu

hans hollein

arhitekture i skulpture, kao

I wouldnt formulate it quite

i obrn ut o. Izmeu arhitek

like that, that would be seeing

ture, dizajna, produkt-dizajna,

it almost too figuratively. In

urban-diz ajn a ne povlaim

my work there are no clear

jasne granine linije, ve su

boundaries, there are tran

to najee tekui prijelazi.

sitions between architecture

No, postoji i itav niz radova,

and sculpture, and vice versa.

primarno umjetnikog karak

I draw no clear lines between

tera, koji su potpuno slobodni

architecture, design, product

od bilo kakve svrhovitosti. In

design and urban design; rath

terpretacija odreenih motiva

er, these are most often fluid

na mojim objektima trebala bi

transitions. However, there is

se temeljiti na kompleksnijoj

an entire series of works, pri

bazi. Ona kolica s keramikim

marily of an artistic character,

ploicama (s Bijenala 72.),

that are completely free of any

na koja se polae mrtvace

type of purpose. An interpreta

Venecijanski bijenale
1972. Svakodnevne
situacije / Vennice
Biennale 1972. Everyday
situation

zlatarnica Schullin, Be,

1972.-74. / Schulin
Jewellery Shop, Vienna

trgovina svije}a Retti,

Be, 1964.-65. / Retti
candle shop, Vienna

Rollce-Roys Grill, Wall

Street, NY, 1966.

Superstructure over
Manhattan, 1963.

prije seciranja, imaju u sebi krv, to je povezano

tion of certain motifs in my objects should be based

dok sam uope ita mogao realizirati. Osam godina

define acoustic space by tone. I think that there

s promiljanjima i doivljajima koje sam imao. Za

on a more complex basis. That cart with ceramic

nakon diplome dobio sam priliku realizirati jedan

are other elements of architecture and the life

mene je, na primjer, doivljaj Meksika i krvi rezul

tiles (from the 72 Biennale), onto which cadavers

mali duan od 14m prodavaonicu svijea Retti,

of a city, which also have great importance, but

tirao vrlo bitnom spoznajom, koja je prenesena na

are placed before dissection, has blood in it, which

koja jo uvijek radi. Istodobno sam htio nainiti

in that case what was important was the rela

moje pojmovanje umjetnosti, ali i na moj principijel

is tied in with reflections and experiences that I had.

jedan funkcionalni objekt koji e sluiti funkciji

tion between understanding and interpretation

ni pojam ivota, kao i na arhitektonski rad. No kod

For me, for example, the experience of Mexico and

prodaje i privlaenju kupaca te zadovoljiti os

of space. It took a long time for me to actually

Schullina ne bih rekao rana, ve je to za mene

blood resulted in a very essential conception that

novne zahtjeve investitora, ali i mnogo vie od

realize anything. Eight years after my diploma I

prije erozija. U tom je sluaju svjesno postavljena

was transferred not only to my understanding of art,

toga. Kad je Bakema prvi put vidio Retti, nazvao

was given the opportunity to realize a small store

odreena dijalektika. Pozadina je zapravo bila veo

but also to my principled notion of life, as well as

ga je arhitektonskim manifestom. On je to i bio

of 14 square metres the Retti Candle Shop,

ma pragmatina. Taj sam granit htio razlomiti tako

to my architectural work. However, with Schullin, I

u smislu stava prema materijalu, prostoru, virtual

which is still open to this day. What I wanted to do

da erodira, to je vrlo skupa stvar, pa sam morao

would not say wound; for me it is more an erosion.

noj i nevirtualnoj arhitekturi. Fiziki prostor tu je

was simultaneously to create a functional object,

imati valjan razlog da to proraunski opravdam.

A specific dialectic was consciously set up in that

dvoma nasuprotno postavljenim zrcalima virtualno

which would serve the function of selling and of

Lamele tu slue dovoenju svjeeg zraka, a cijevi

case. The background is, in fact, very pragmatic.

proiren u beskonanost. Tu je i vrlo jak odnos

attracting customers and to satisfy the basic

odvoenju zraka, odzraivanju klima ureaja. To

I wanted to break up that granite so that it would

prema svjetlu, u ovome sluaju svijei, koja je

requests by the clients, but also much more than

jest autonomni objekt koji, meutim, u pozadini

erode, which in itself is a very expensive thing, and

ambivalentan element povezan sa sveanostima,

that. When Bakema saw Retti for the first time, he

ima funkciju.

I had to have a valid reason so that I could justify it

slavljima, ali i religioznim ceremonijama.

called it an architectural manifesto. And it was in

through the budget. The lamellas here serve to bring

in fresh air, and the pipes to take away air, flushing

oris

virtual and non-virtual architecture. The physical

Zanimljiv je u vaem radu taj skok u mjerilu od pred

out the air conditioning units. It is an autonomous

Moda bismo mogli govoriti o temi ikona. U svojim

space here was virtually expanded into infinity with

meta svakodnevnice do kompleksnog prostornog

object, which has a function in the background.

ste se ranim radovima bavili njima i promjenama

the placement of two mirrors opposite each other.

njihova znaenja nosa aviona kao slika grada.

Here there is also a very strong relation towards

sklopa nebodera uvijek pritom zadravate kontrolu

nad prostorom. Kako do toga dolazi, stoji li iza toga

oris

Hladnjak Rolls-Royca u skylinu Manhattna. Vidite li

light, in this case a candle, which is an ambiva

odreena metoda.

What is interesting in your work is that scale leap

u tome vezu sa sadanjicom ili u svojim konceptima

lent element, linked with festivities, celebrations,

from everyday objects to the complex spatial

dovodite u pitanje odreene sfere moi.

but also religious ceremonies.

hans hollein

system of high-rise buildings: you always maintain

Prostor je osobito bitan element u arhitekturi, ali i

control over the space. How does this come about,

hans hollein

oris

u ljudskom ivotu. O tome sam napisao master-tezu

is there a specific method behind this?

Ja sam ve vrlo rano raznim formama rekao i

Perhaps we could talk about the theme of

formulirao da je arhitektura s jedne strane sred

icons. In your earlier works you were concerned

Berkeley, 1960.). Radi se o fenomenu prostora

hans hollein

stvo za odravanje tjelesne topline, dok je s druge

with them and the changes of their meanings

uope, pri emu akustiki prostor mogu definirati

Space is an especially important element in archi

strane ritualna, kultna pojava. Po mom miljenju

an aircraft carrier as an image of a city. A

tonom. Mislim da ima drugih elemenata arhitekture

tecture, but also in human life. I wrote my master

se arhitektura svih vremena i civilizacija kree

Rolls-Royce radiator in the Manhattan skyline.

i ivota grada koji takoer imaju veliku vanost, no

thesis on this topic Space in space in space (Uni

izmeu ta dva pola. Prva gomila kamenja koju je

Do you see a link with the present in these, or

u tome sluaju bio je bitan odnos prema spoznaji

versity of California, Berkeley, 1960). It is about the

netko podigao imala je kultnu svrhu. Stanovalo se

do you in your concepts put in question specific

i interpretaciji prostora. Dosta je dugo potrajalo

phenomenon of space in general, whereby I can

u spilji ili jami nainjenoj za odravanje tjelesne

spheres of power?

Space in space, in space (University of California,

86

the sense of its stance towards materials, space,

oris

topline. Kolac zabijen u tlo imao je primarno, a to

se nastavljalo sve do dananjeg najvieg nebod
era, visokog 508 m u Taipehu, kultni, sakralni,
ikonografski aspekt i nije bio samo izraz moi. I
to sam to prikazao. Ne znam da li poznajete moje
crtee Chicago Skyscrapers iz 1958., u obliku
penisa ili ake, koji te stvari prilino precizno po
kazuju. To su stvari koje omoguuje arhitektura.
Za mene je to vidljivo kroz stoljea, sve do danas;
dakako, drugim sredstvima, drugim redovima
veliina, no to su iskonska svojstva arhitekture.
oris

hans hollein

Friedrich Achleitner u bekom

oris

Already very early on with various forms I had said

Die Presse: ...s jedne strane,

Perhaps we can return to your

to je ...reakcija na sterilni mo

beginnings, to your first ap

dernizam, prodor prema fantas

pearance on the architectural

tinom, divovski nesvrhovitom,

scene in Vienna. In a period

ali s druge strane, vidjet e se

of rigid modernism, you ap

da li su ti radovi bili priprema

peared with a manifesto that

ili su pak bijeg. Danas je jas

contained statements such

no da su bili priprema. Kakav

as: Architecture is without

je bio put od te pripreme do

purpose. Architecture is

realizacije?

cultic, sensua l, symbolic,

and formulated that architecture was a means for

maintaining body-temperature on the one hand,
while on the other it was a ritual, cult phenome
non. It is my belief that architecture in all times
and civilizations moves between these two poles.
The first pile of rocks that someone piled up had a
cultic purpose. Early human beings lived in caves or
hollows, fashioned to maintain body temperature.
A stake driven into the ground primarily had and
has continued to have down to the present, in the

hans hollein

Poznat je va koncept: Aufbauen und Aushhlen

Taipei a cultic, sacral and iconographic aspect

Ako elite kratku povijest, evo:

(Graditi u vis i izdubiti). Izmeu tih polova kreu se

and was not just an expression of power. In fact,

vrlo sam se rano poeo baviti

hans hollein

i vai radovi.

this is what I also presented, I dont know if you

tim stvarima, ve zadnjih godi

na studija (premda je studij

Yes, it certainly did.

are familiar with my Chicago Skyscraper drawings

hans hollein

from 1958, in the form of a penis or fist, which

trajao vrlo kratko za tri godi

To jest tono, a opet i nije posve tono. To je i tema

show these things pretty precisely, but these

ne smo bili gotovi). Bila je to

moje izlobe u galeriji AEDES u Berlinu 2003. go

are things that architecture enables. For me this

reakcija na jednu situaciju i

dine. Iz tih dviju mogunosti prostora i oblikovanja,

has been visible throughout the centuries, up to

to drugaijim razmiljanjima o

pa i graenja, proizlaze veoma razliite situacije.

today, certainly with other means, other orders

arhitekturi. Tada je u Beu, u

Graenje iznad zemlje je slaganje slojeva jednih

of magnitude, but these are the primordial traits

Austriji, ali ne samo tamo, vri

preko drugih. Tektonsko je, podlono gravitaciji.

of architecture.

jeme bilo u osnovi reakcionar

no, ne samo okrenuto unatrag,

Graenje ispod zemlje u svojoj je biti posve dru

gaije. Prodirem u dubinu i mogu se usporedio

oris

to ne bi uvijek moralo biti

bih to s ribom to pliva u vodi rastezati u svim

Your concept of Digging Piling up Aufbauen

negativno. Vladala je atmos

pravcima; sila tee se u biti dokida. Naravno, kod

und Aushhlen is well known. Your work moves

fer a neprijateljstva prema

podzemnih gradnji dolazi do oblikovanja koje nije

between these two poles.

fantaz iji i umjetnosti. Tada

smo imali vrlo malo razonode,

priori pravocrtno, ve je prije organsko. Treba samo

pogledati arheoloko nalazite Petra izaete iz
klisure i pred vama se pojavi fasada palae u ne
kom grko-rimskom stilu tu su stupovi, arhitravi,
itd. To je imitacija graene arhitekture. Radi se o
jednom monolitu, pa stupovi uope ne bi bili po
trebni. Postoje stare fotografije na kojima jedan od
stupova visi. Taj sam motiv upotrijebio kod svoga
priloga na Bijenalu 1980., kod Strade Novissime.
oris

morali smo gledati kako emo

hans hollein

fiziki pre ivj eti. Sjeam se

That is correct, but again, not entirely correct. That

da su tada pred Akademijom

was the theme of my exhibition at the AEDES Gal

likovnih umjetnosti na Schil

lery in Berlin in 2003. From these two possibilities

lerplatzu bile parkirane dvije

of space and its shaping, and also of building, quite

vespe i jedan auto dakako da

different situations arise. Building above ground is

nitko od nas studenata nije

placing layers on top of each other. It is tectonic,

posjedovao ni vespu ni auto.

susceptible to gravitation. Building underground

Bilo je dosta vremena da se

in its essence becomes something quite different.

Moda bismo se mogli vratiti vaim poecima, vaem

compare this with a fish swimming in water and

prvom nastupu na arhitektonskoj sceni Bea. U vre

I can stretch out in all directions, gravity is in fact

menu rigidnog modernizma dolazite s manifestom u

annulled. Of course, with underground building

kom ima i ovakvih iskaza: Arhitektura je bez svrhe,

the shaping is not a priori rectilinear, but more

Arhitektura je kultna, ulna, simbolika, znakovita.

organic. Just take a look at the Petra archaeologi

Mora da je to tada djelovalo poput udara groma.

cal site you come out from a gorge and a faade

hans hollein

style there are columns, architraves, etc. This is

Da, zaista je tako djelovalo.

an imitation of built architecture. We are speak

oris

necessary. There are old photographs that show

To se odnosi i na predavanje koje ste odrali u bekoj

one of the columns as hanging. I used this motif in

Galeriji St. Stefan 1962. godine i na vau izlobu u

toj istoj galeriji 1963. godine. Tada je to komentirao

my contribution to the 1980 Biennale, in Strada

Novissima.

at the St Stefan Gallery in

1962 and to your exhibition
in the same gallery in 1963.
At the time, Friedrich Achleit
ner commented on this in
Viennas Die Presse on one
hand as: A reaction to sterile
modernism, a foray towards
the fantastic, the colossally
purposeless, while on the
other hand: it has yet to be
seen whether these works
are a preparation or perhaps
an escape Today it is clear
that these were a preparation.
What was the path from that
preparation to realization?
hans hollein

hostility towards fantasy and

i zadaama koje sam si sam

postavljao. Postojale su tada
unutar avangarde, mada taj
pojam ne potpisujem uvijek,
vrlo uske veze izmeu razlii
tih umjetnika arhitek at a,
slik ara, literata. Bila je to
mala, ali nepodijeljena grupa.

Neboder za Chicago
/ Scyscraper for
Chicago, 1958.

This also refers to the lecture

forma za rad i razmiljanje. No

dovoljno vremena da se bavim

Venecijanski
Bijenale / Venice
Biennale, 1980.,
Strada novissima

oris

bude odbijen. Bila je to dobra

na Akademiji, ali sam imao

ing here of a monolith, and the columns were not

caused quite a stir then.

If you would like a short history

I began my involvement with
this very early on, already in
my last year of studies even
if the curriculum was quite
short in three years we were
finished with our studies. This
was a reaction to a specific
situation with different re
flections on architecture. Back
then in Vienna, in Austria,
and not just there, the time
was essentially reactionary,
not only looking back, which
does not always need to be
negative. An atmosphere of

intenzivno bavimo projektima

I penetrate into the depth and I can I would

appears before you in some kind of Greek-Roman

88

meaningful. It must have

tallest building in the world, a 508m skyscraper in

Druili smo se, pri emu je je

dan pjesnik mogao govoriti o
arhitekturi, i obrnuto, a da ne

90

potrebno si je predoiti i tadanju situaciju u Beu

art reigned. Back then we had very little entertain

upozorio da se pobrinu za to. No odgovorili su mi

in the Academys cafeteria and no one in Vienna

(studirao sam od 1953.-56.). Nije bilo gotovo nika

ment; we had to look out for how we would physically

da Hoffmann nije njihov interes, ve da je vano

knew him, and his yearly work came down to his

kvih informacija izvana, a bilo je i vrlo malo pub

survive. I remember that there were two Vespas

kompletirati zbirku Meissen porculana. Bila je

having designed the entrance door to some public

likacija. Tada je u menzi Akademije sjedio Joseph

and a car parked in front of the Academy of Fine

to zaista vrlo konzervativna situacija, pa me je

residential buildings. Back then, you could buy a

Hoffmann i nitko ga u Beu nije poznavao, a njegov

Arts on Schillerplatz, and it was clear that none of

to navelo da na neko vrijeme otiem u vedsku.

drawing by Klimt or Schiele for 10 $, but I unfor

godinji posao svodio se na oblikovanje ulaznih

us students owned either a Vespa or a car. There

vedska je tada vrlo zanimljivo razvijala stano

tunately did not have those 10 $. The mayor of

vrata neke komunalne stambene zgrade. Tada ste

was enough time to work intensively on projects at

gradnju u smislu nastavljanja moderne, to je za

Vienna then did not even know who Otto Wagner

jedan crte Klimta ili Schilea mogli dobiti za 10 $,

the Academy, but I also had enough time to work

mene bio vrlo interesantno. No prije svega je bilo

was. It was my generation that dug up that history

no ja tih 10 $ naalost nisam imao. Gradonaelnik

on tasks that I assigned myself. At the time there

vano moje putovanje u Ameriku, jer sam kao prvo

again these were not art historians or professors

Bea tada nije znao tko je Otto Wagner. Moja je

existed within the avant-garde, even though I dont

elio upoznati tu zemlju i te ljude, uope njihovu

from the University who were responsible for this.

generacija tu prolost opet iskopala nisu to bili

always call it this, very close ties between various

civilizaciju. Zatim sam jasno htio vidjeti itav niz

Rather, this was a small group to which F. Achleitner

povjesniari umjetnosti ni profesori Univerziteta,

artists architects, painters, men of letters. This

arhitektonskih djela i upoznati same arhitekte. To

belonged, for example, that rediscovered what our

koji bi za to bili nadleni. Bila je to mala grupa kojoj

was a small but undivided group. We kept company,

mi je i uspjelo, bilo da se radilo o F. L. Wrightu ili

positive history was. I was always actively involved

je, primjerice, pripadala i F. Achleitner, koja je pon

which meant a poet could talk about architecture,

Miesu; oba sam susreo. Razgledao sam njihove

in something. At the time, you could easily exchange

ovo otkrila ono to je bila naa pozitivna prolost.

and vice versa, and not be rejected. This was a good

graevine, a dodatno sam jo i studirao. Htio sam

a Hoffmann chair from the Purkersdorf Sanatorium

Ja sam se uvijek aktivno zauzimao za neke stvari.

form for work and for reflection. But it is necessary

upoznati i jedan drugi ivotni osjeaj. Radio sam i

for some worthless chair. I went to the Museum of

Tada se zaista moglo mijenjati Hoffmannov stolac

to present the situation in Vienna during the time

neobine stvari elio sam vidjeti to vie gradova

Applied Arts (Museum fr angewandte Kunst) back

iz Sanatorija Purkersdorf za posve bezvrijednu

of my studies (1953-1956). There was almost no

s imenom Vienna; Vienna-Virginia, Vienna-Illinois,

then and warned them of this situation. But the

stolicu. Otiao sam tada u Muzej primijenjene

information from abroad, and there were very few

itd. Ponovo sam otkrio Schindlera, fotografirao

reply I received was that Hoffmann was not in their

umjetnosti (Museum fr angewandte Kunst) te ih

publications. At the time Joseph Hoffmann sat

njegove objekte. On je umro, a njegov arhiv je bio

interest, and that it was more important to complete

u loem stanju. Materijal o Schindleru pokazao

the Meissen porcelain collection. It really was a con

bio umjetnik Walter Pichler, kog dotad nisam

was also significant was encountering this great

sam u Museum of Modern Art. Oni Schindlera

servative situation back then, and this compelled

poznavao. Priao mi je, rekao da sve to smatra

freedom, this spaciousness, and I travelled twice

nisu smatrali zanimljivim... Za mene je znaajan

me to go to Sweden for a time. Sweden then had a

sjajnim, te izrazio elju da se naemo. Tome je

from New York to California the fastest way possible

bio i susret s velikom slobodom, prostranstvom

very interesting development in housing construc

slijedila suradnja, ali ne u obliku tima. Uvijek sam

in order to experience travelling without borders.

dva puta sam putovao iz New Yorka u Kaliforniju

tion, in the sense of continuing in the modernist

bio protiv timova, a za individualnu odgovornost.

You need to recall our political situation at the time;

najbrim moguim nainom kako bih doivio

style, which for me was a very interesting encounter.

Zajedniki rad se odvijao tako da su nam djela

there was a border control even at Semmering the

putovanje bez granica. Pritom se treba prisjetiti

But more important was my travelling to America,

bila odvojena, a verbalni iskazi zajedniki i to na

border between the Russian and the British occu

nae tadanje politike situacije granina kon

because I wanted first of all to get to know the land

izlobi, koja je trajala samo tri dana, to je bilo

pation zone. A different way of thinking, a different

trola je bila ve na Semmeringu, granici izmeu

and people, their civilization, and of course I wanted

najdue to nam je Galerija St. Stefan dala na

type of freedom was present in America in the most

ruske i britanske okupacijske zone. Na najra

to see an entire series of architectural works and

raspolaganje. Na otvorenju je bila silna navala;

variety of ways. All this certainly had its effect on me.

zliitije naine se u Americi pokazivao drugaiji

meet with the architects themselves. I succeeded

ljudi su akama lupali po modelima vjerojatno

I studied at the Illinois Institute of Technology (IIT)

nain miljenja, drugaija sloboda. To sve me

in this, whether it was F. L. Wright or Mies, I met

su se osjetili isprovociranima. Pa ni Achleitner se

and at Berkeley, where I also completed my master

sigurno bitno oformilo. Studirao sam na ITT-ju i na

them both. I visited their buildings, and additionally

tada nije ba izjasnio iskljuivo pozitivno.

thesis. But what was more important for me was

Berkeleyju, gdje sam i zavrio s master degree.

I also studied. I wanted to get to know a completely

No vaniji mi je bio intenzivan doivljaj. Upoznao

different feeling of life. I also did some unusual

oris

others of the beat-generation at literary evenings

sam Gregoryja Corsa i ostale iz beat generacije

things I wanted to see as many cities as I could

Kenneth Frampton vas je oznaio kao pravog

in San Francisco.

na literarnim veerima u San Franciscu.

named Vienna: Vienna-Virginia, Vienna-Illinois and

arhitekta u smislu tradicije beke Akademije

Thus in 1962, at the invitation of Monsignor Mauer

No, dakle, 1962. sam na poziv monsignora

so on. I rediscovered Schindler, and photographed

poznavanja zanata i istodobno precizne analize

I held a presentation on my works at the St Stefan

Mauera odrao to predavanje o svojim radovima

his buildings. He passed away, and his archive

misaonog procesa. S druge strane uvijek se pon

Gallery. I showed my drawings, models and texts,

u Galeriji St. Stefan. Pokazao sam svoje crtee,

was in a desolate state. I showed the material on

ovo pokazuje vaa sklonost prema umjetnikom,

which were all received quite controversially. But

modele i tekstove, to je bilo vrlo kontroverzno

Schindler to the Museum of Modern Art and they

artistikom. Sigurno se ti suprotni polovi reflektiraju

what was interesting was that the artist Walter

primljeno. No zanimljivo je bilo to da je tamo

found Schindler to be not interesting. For me what

u vaem radu.

Pichler, whom I did not know at the time, was there.

the intense experience. I met Gregory Corso and

He approached me and said that he found every

hans hollein

thing quite fantastic, and expressed his wish that we

Da, to je u biti tono. Inae s Kennom Framp

meet. This was followed by a period of cooperation,

tonom sam prijatelj; on je svog sina nazvao po

mojem. Stav Kena Framptona vrlo je jasan po
njemu arhitektura mora biti tektonina. Sigurno
postoji tektonina arhitektura, pa i visokokva
litetna i moderna tektonina arhitektura, ali
rekao bih da je istakom vijenca na Pallazzo
Strozzi u Firenci zapoelo osvajanje prostora u
horizontalnom smislu, osvajanje prostora jednim
drugim slojem. To je sadrano u mnogim mojim
urbanistikim promiljanjima dakle, radi se o
istaci cantileveru. Frampton ima stringentniji
stav koji, meut im, takoer mogu prih vatiti.

but not as a team. I have always been against teams,

but rather for individual responsibility. Our mutual
cooperation evolved in such a way that our works
were separate but that the verbal expressions were
shared, and this was at the exhibition that only last
ed three days, the longest amount of time that the St
Stefan Gallery made available to us. At the opening
there was a great rush, and people pounded the
models with their fists, probably feeling provoked.
Even Achleitner then did not positively speak out.
oris

Hvala Bogu, danas vie ne vladaju dogme koje

Kenneth Frampton labelled you as the one true

su vladale godinama, kao to je to i dogma funk

architect in the sense of the tradition of Viennas

cionalizma. Postojao je samo jedan pravi smjer,

Academy knowing the trade and simultaneously

a sve je drugo bilo krivo. Moda postoji vie

having precise analytical thought processes. On

no jedan pravi smjer. Smatram da je doprinos

the other hand, your affinity towards the artistic

Kennetha Framptona, osobito u Americi, vaan

is always in evidence. Certainly these opposite

i u smislu spoz naje vrijednosti ruskog kons

poles must reflect in your work.

truktivizma, koji je u Americi dugo bio nepoznat.

92

Albertina, novi ulaz /

new entrance, Be /
Vienna,
2001.-2003.

U vrijeme mog studija na Berkeleyju bavio sam

hans hollein

se ne samo ruskim konstruktivizmom u arhitek

Yes, this is in fact true. I am friends with Kenneth

turi ve i u teatru. Tada u Americi o tome nitko

Frampton, he named his son after mine. Ken

nije nita znao. Ono o emu su znali bio je Adolf

Framptons stance is very clear according to him,

Loos o njemu se predavalo na kolegiju povijest

architecture must be tectonic. Tectonic architecture

arhitekture. U to se vrijeme o Loosu u Beu na

must certainly exist, even high-quality and modern

studiju povijesti umjetnosti sigurno nije preda

tectonic architecture, but I would say that the con

valo. Dananja generacija jedva moe zamisliti

quest of space in a horizontal sense started with the

kako je minimalan bio protok informacija u ono

protruding cornice of the Strozzi Palace in Florence.

vrijeme. Neke knjige ili stari asopisi s neim za

This is contained in many of my urban reflections

nimljivim bili su senzacija koju smo jedan drugome

this is about the cantilever. Frampton has a more

pokazivali za kavanskim stolom. Dananja infor

stringent view which however I can also accept.

macijska mrea ima jasno jak utjecaj na procjenu

Thank heavens that dogmas no longer reign today,

situacije i na projekte.

dogmas that reigned for years, just as the dogma

of functionalism did. Only one direction existed, and

oris

everything else was wrong. Perhaps more than one

U vezi s vladanjem dogmi mogli bismo ukazati i na

right direction exists. I consider Kenneth Framptons

zahtjeve za odreenom neutralnou arhitekture

contribution, especially important in America, in the

kakvu su proklamirali majstori moderne.

sense of his being aware of the values of Russian

Constructivism, which in America was long unknown.

hans hollein

During my studies at Berkeley, I was involved not

Ja sam apsolutno protiv toga da arhitektura bude

only in Russian Constructivism in architecture, but

neutralna.

also in theatre. At the time no one in America knew

anything about this. What they did know was Adolf

oris

Loos they showed his work in lectures of archi

Pa to i jest va doprinos u razdoblju kasne moderne.

tectural history. Back then, there were certainly

hans hollein

no lectures about him in Vienna in the Art History

Faculty. Todays generation can hardly imagine the

To je sigurno tono, no to treba prepustiti prosudbi

minimal flow of information that existed during that

povjesniara arhitekture i povjesniara umjetnosti.

time. Some books, or older magazines with some

thing interesting were quite the sensation which

oris

we passed among ourselves at caf tables. Todays

Govorimo li o temi muzeja, va muzej u Mnchen

information network has a clearly strong influence

gladbachu je mnogo kompleksnija i skulpturalnija

on the assessment of situations and projects.

Gradski muzej / Municipal

museum, Mnchengladbach,
Njemaka / Germany, 1972.-82.

Gate 2-Vectigal, poslovni toranj /

office tower, Be / Vienna, 2001.

graevina nego to bi to bila jedna tektonina zgra

oris

da. Za mene tu postoje razliite razine, a o tome je

In relation to the reign of dogmas, we can also

i Kenneth Frampton govorio to nije tek galerijski

point to the demands for a certain neutrality of

prostor, to je grad u minijaturi, a istodobno i kra

architecture, as proclaimed by the modernist

jolik. Moe se ii kroz graevinu, preko nje, u nju ui

masters.

odozgo. To je veoma vaan aspekt, ujedno i poetak

jednog drugaijeg promiljanja prostornog koncepta.
hans hollein

To nema direktne veze s muzejom, to je samo demon

strirano na osnovu jednog mog muzeja. Uvijek sam
mislio da treba uiti iz povijesti, uiti od razliitih
kultura i civilizacija, ali ne kopirati ili imitirati, ve
spoznati to je netko drugi napravio. U mom sluaju
ja sam se bavio pueblosima sjevernoamerikih

94

hans hollein

I am completely against architecture being neutral.

oris

But that was your contribution in the period of

late modernism.
hans hollein

Indijanaca. To su objekti, koji se nezamjetno inte

That is certainly true, but that should perhaps be

griraju u krajolik, pri emu se ne zna gdje prestaje

left to the judgment of architectural historians and

hridina, a gdje poinje graevina. Ta topografska

art historians.

 Centrum Bank, Vaduz,

Liechtenstein, 1997.-2003.

arhitektura kod mene ispoet

oris

ka nije bila rektangularna. to

If we were to speak on the

se tie integracije, postoje ur

theme of museums, your mu

bana polja gdje ona naprosto

seum in Mnchengladbach

nije mogua. A to se pak tie

is a much more complex and

integracije u krajolik, Vulcania

sculpt ured structure than

je jedan kasni primjer. Jasno

a tect onic building would

sam pokazao tu integraciju

be. For me there are various

prostornog, kao i kontinuitet

levels that exist here, and

vanjskog i unutarnjeg prosto

Kenneth Frampt on spoke

ra. U mojoj arhitekturi nema

about this it is not a gal

razlike izmeu vanjskog i

lery space so much as it is a

unutarnjeg. Na primjer, zgrada

miniature city and landscape

Centrum Banke u Vaduzu dje

simultaneously. One can pass

luje kao kamen koji je pao s

through the building, over it,

planine; tu postoji kontinuitet

enter it from above. This is an

od van prema unutra, sve do

extremely important aspect,

komada pokustva u predvorju

and also the beginning of a

koje je takoer kameno.

different type of deliberation

oris

Vratimo li se temi muzeja, mogli

hans hollein

bismo rei da ste vi klasinu

That has no direct link to the

funkciju, aksijalnost, prohod

nost muzeja od naprijed prema
nazad, doveli u pitanje. Moglo bi
se to povezati i s pojmom ikona
u vaim radovima o kojima smo
govorili.
hans hollein

museum, in that case it was

demonstrated on the exam
ple of one of my museums.
I have always believed that
one should learn from history,
learn from various cultures
and civilizations, but not copy
or imitate, rather come to un

Katkada aksijalni red moe

derstand what someone else

biti ispravan i vaan, te donosi

has created. In my case, I was

pos ve odreen znaaj i sa

preoccupied with the Pueblos

draj. No katkada je simetrija

of the North American Indians.

jednostavno sredstvo organi

These are objects that are im

zacije, ali nema drugog smis

perceptibly integrated into the

la. to se tie ikona, kruna

landscape, so that one cant

grada (Stadtkrone) moe biti

tell where the cliff ends and

ikona. Diskusija o tome kako

where the structure begins.

bi se tonije definirala ikona

This topographical architecture

i kako bi se tonije definiralo

with me was not rectangular

ritualno bila bi jako dugaka.

at the beginning. As far as

Ja sam to jednom i pokazao

integration goes, there are

uz pomo jedne skice (crta)

urban fields where this is not

eto tako sjedi faraon na

possible, as for integration

prijestolju, tako prek ri enih

into the landscape, Vulcania

ruku a tu sjedi, nek ak o

is one later example. Here

oputeno prekrienih nog u

I clearly showed integration

na tom prijestolju jedno je

of the spatial as well as the

ritualni, a drugo jedan slo

continuity of outer and inner

bodniji oblik. Mada se u ovom

space. In my architecture there

is no differentiation between
the external and internal. For
example, the Centrum Bank

sluaju radi o istom tijelu i

istom objektu, jedna situacija
je tu jednos tavn im obratom
96

of spatial concept.

izmijenjena. Mislim da je u arhitekturi potrebna

building in Vaduz (Liechtenstein) functions like a

odreena strogost iskaza, no postoji i neto to u

rock, like one that has fallen from a cliff and here

fluidnoj formi rezultira metaforikim izrazom. Za

exists the continuity from the external towards the

mene postoji i jedna statina i jedna svjesno din

internal, up to the pieces of furniture in the lobby,

amina arhitektura. Primjer dinamine arhitekture

which are also made of stone.

je moj objekt Inter Banke u Limi, u Peruu, smjeten

na krianju dviju autocesta dnevno tuda proe

oris

500.000 automobila. Parcela je ostatak jednog

If we return to the theme of Museums, we could

krianja u obliku lista djeteline, dakle parcela koja

say that you have called the classic function,

nema pravocrtni oblik. Bio je to natjeaj na kome

the axiality, the possibility of going through the

sam pobijedio. To je objekt koji sam svjesno gradio

museum from the front towards the back in ques

suvremenom fasadom od titana, ali s druge strane

tion. This could be linked to the notion of icons

ima puno veze s lokalnom kulturnom situacijom.

in your work.

Sagradio sam taj golemi zid iza kojeg je smjete

no 5 katova garaa i tehnikih prostora. Dao sam

hans hollein

pozvati gotovo itavo jedno selo s Anda s njegovim

Sometimes the axial order can be right and import

obrtnicima. Oni su komplicirane, ogromne, vie

kutne komade kamena tako meusobno povezali
da se ni poslovini no ne bi mogao utaknuti u
fuge. To su gradili mjesecima. Tu se ujedinila Glory
of the past slavna prolost arhitekture Inka s
dinamikom 21. stoljea. To nije narativno, rekao
bih, to se i ne mora znati. Ta zgrada mora opstati i
bez tog objanjenja.

98

ant, and it brings a completely specific significance

and content. Sometimes symmetry is simply a
means for organization, but it has no other meaning.
As far as icons go, a citys crown (Stadtkrone) can
be an icon. That would be a long discussion on how
correctly to define an icon, and how it would ritually
be defined correctly. I once showed this with the help
of a drawing he makes a sketch here a pharaon

Interbank, Lima, Peru, 1996.-2000.

oris

sits on a throne, in a stern pose with crossed

Mogli bismo se opet nadovezati na temu Aufbauen

arms, like that and here sits, somehow, leaning

und aushhlen izdubljivanje u suprotnosti s tekto

nikim graenjem uvis. Tektoniki sistem odgovarao
bi neboderu, bilo da se radi o Limi ili Monte Laa
u Beu. To znai usuditi se ii preko granica, izai
izvan okvira. Mislim da obje mogunosti definiraju
prazninu; s jedne strane npr. djelomino ukopana,
nevidljiva Vulcania definirana je prazninom, a s druge
strane je neboder kao osvajanje praznine.

relaxed on the throne with legs crossed the one

is ritual, and the other is a more liberal form. Even
though we have in this case the same body and
the same object, one situation is changed here
with a simple twist. I think that in architecture
there is a need for an indisputable strictness of
expression, but there is also something which in a
more fluid form results in metaphoric expression.
For me there exists an architecture that is static

100

hans hollein

and one that is consciously dynamic. An example

Neboder je kategorija za sebe. Postoji neboder kao

of dynamic architecture is my Interbank building

principijelna tipologija, zanimljiva tipologija, koja

in Lima, Peru, located at the intersection of two

potjee iz davnih vremena eto ba, kao to sam

highways; more than 500 000 cars pass there

ve prije rekao, prvi uspravljeni kolac, Svjetionik u

daily. The site is a left-over of a traffic intersection

Aleksandriji, Kula babilonska, tornjevi katedrala. Ta

in the shape of a clover leaf, that is, a parcel that

vertikalna graevina uvijek je imala vrlo specifian,

doesnt have a straight rectangular form. This

osnovni arhitektonski iskaz, a prema tehnolokom

was a competition which I had won. This is an

razdoblju i simbolikom sadraju, koji se moe oi

object that I built consciously with a contempo

tati, on je uvijek i vrlo razliit. No to je jednostavno

rary faade made of titanium, but which had a

tip koji me je uvijek zanimao. Interesantno je

lot of ties with the local cultural situation. I built

primjerice pitanje kako da neboder zavri. Recimo,

that huge wall behind which there are five levels

Seagram Building je prizma koja bi se bilo gdje

of parking space and technical spaces. I invited

mogla odrezati. U tom pogledu je meu amerikim

almost an entire village from the Andes along

neboderima vaan Chrysler Building, s moda deko

with its craftsmen. They managed to link together

neboderi /
towers Monte Laa,
Be / Vienna,
2000.

muzej / museum
Mnchsberg,
Salzburg, 1989.-
2001.

Vulcania-Parc
Europen du
Volcanisme, Saint-
ours-Les Roches,
Auvergne,
Francuska /
France, 2002.

Vulcania-Parc
Europen du
Volcanisme, Saint-
ours-Les Roches,
Auvergne,
Francuska /
France, 2002.

rativnim akcentom. Ali je pitanje kakav moe biti

the complicated, enormous polygonal pieces of

vrh nebodera. Generali Media Tower kompleksno

rock so that not even the proverbial knife could

je oblikovan, od raznolikih formalnih blokova koji

be wedged into the joints. They were building it for

su meutim vrlo usko povezani s integracijom u

months. Here the Glory of the past the glorious

gradsku okolinu. U okoliu kua iz 19. stoljea

past of the Inca architecture was united with the

trebao je nastati neboder, pa sam tu blokovsku

dynamics of the 21st century. I would say that this

izgradnju u osnovi jednim dijelom nastavio. U ne

is not narrative; it does not even have to be known.

posrednoj blizini je i tzv. Bundeslndergebnde iz

The building needs to survive, even without that

prve generacije visokih zgrada u Beu. Na to sam

explanation.

reagirao metalnim boxom povuenim od graevne

oris

linije, tako da je nastao javni prostor. Prema gore

We could once again link into the theme of

skoeni stakleni volumen ukazuje na budunost.

digging and piling up digging in contrast to

as a task Lima back then it had a population of

Ovdje se nije radilo samo o pojedinanom objektu,

tectonic building up. The tectonic system would

less than a million. When I was working on the

ve o objektu integriranom u urbano. U mojim

apply to high-rises, whether we are talking

competition for the Interbank, it was now a city

ranim razmiljanjima o gradu vide se lebdee

about Lima or Monte-Laa in Vienna. This means

of 10 million. I was recently in Mexico, where

tvorevine iznad grada, pa je to sluaj i kod projek

to dare to go beyond the boundaries, to go out

the president of the state during a presentation

ta Monte Laa, u geometrizirajuoj formi u ovom

side the frame. I think that both possibilities

announced that in less than a year they would be

sluaju jedna druga razina iznad grada, iznad

on one hand, they define a void the partially

building 700 000 flats. An individual flat would

gusto izgraena grada. Be je jedan od malobrojnih

buried, invisible Vulcania, with which the void

be 38m2, and would cost $12 000, the price of a

gradova koji nemaju porast stanovnitva godine

is defined, and on the other, the high-rise as the

small car. This refers to two or three-storey houses

1910. Be je imao 2,1 milijuna stanovnika, a da

conquering of the void.

and the infrastructure becomes more expensive

studiju sam kod Hilbersheimera sluajno imao za

datak u Limi tad nije imala ni milijun stanovnika.
Kad sam radio natjeaj za Inter banku, bio je to
ve grad od 10 milijuna. Ba sam bio u Meksiku,
gdje je predsjednik drave na jednom predavanju
rekao da e za manje od godinu dana izgraditi
700.000 stanova. Pojedini stan imat e 38 m, a
stajat e 12.000 dolara, kao manji automobil. Tako
e za godinu dana smjestiti 700.000 obitelji. Radi
se o jednokatnim ili dvokatnim kuama, pa time
infrastruktura postaje skupa, a prometna situacija
komplicirana. Stoga je moj prijedlog: Preko takvog
grada neka na odreenim tokama lebdi takorei
jedan drugi grad.
Postoji i drugo pitanje kojim se uvijek ponovo bavim
(bilo je ve rijei o Mnchen gladbachu Be je
naalost propustio priliku ne prihvativi moj projekt
za Zentralsparasse u Floridsdorfu kao walk on
building) to je prohodno oploje jedne graevine.
U Mnchengladbachu moete prolaziti svime osim
tornjem za upravu i shed-krovovima izlobenih
dvorana. To je i urbano pitanje. Na taj je nain gra
evina i danju i nou ukljuena u urbani ivot. Jo
jedna druga stvar ja sam se vrlo rano bavio meta
lom kao graevnim i kao fasadnim materijalom (tr
govina Retti), pa tako i u Mnchengladbachu. Tamo
su fasade izlobenih hala izvedene u titancinku, a to
je jedan gradski muzej. S gradskim budetom morali
smo baratati vrlo tedljivo, no ipak su nam rekli
da nee lim na fasadi; ne bismo li ipak upotrijebili
kamen pa makar bilo i neto skuplje. Rekao sam
im: ..ako jo imate novaca, imao bih na mojoj listi
jo puno toga, pa ostavimo lim. Nakon Mnchen
gladbacha, zanimljivo, veina muzeja ima fasade od
lima. Prigodom otvaranja Bilbaoa je Gehry izjavio
da Bilbao ne bi bio mogu bez Mnchengladbacha.
oris

Kad ve govorimo o Mnchengladbachu, postavlja

se i pitanje toka unutarnjih prostora. To nije klasina
102

Zentralsparkasse, filijala
Floridsdorf, Be, 1966.-68. / Central
Savings Bank of Vienna, Branch
office Floridsdorf, 1966-68

and opposite to this is the city of Lima during

my studies with Hilbersheimer, I coincidentally had

with this, and the traffic situation more compli

nas ih ima 1,8 milijuna. Proirenje grada Bea je

pitanje komfora. Suprotnost tome je npr. Lima na

cated. My suggestion for this would be: to float

hans hollein

The high-rise is a category unto itself. There is

the high-rise as principled typology, an interesting
typology that originates from past times just as
I mentioned before, the first erected stake, the
Lighthouse of Alexandria, the Tower of Babel,
the towers of a cathedral. This vertical structure
always had a specific basic architectural expres
sion, and according to the technological period,
a symbolic content that can be interpreted, it is
always very different. But this simply is a type
that has always interested me. It is interesting,
for example, the question of how a high-rise ends.
Lets say, the Seagram Building is a prism which
can be cut off at any given point. In that sense, the
Chrysler Building is important among American
skyscrapers, perhaps with a decorative element.
But the question is what the top of a skyscraper
or high-rise can be like. The Generali Media
Tower is complexly shaped, from various formal
blocks which are thereby very narrowly tied into
the integration with the city surroundings. A highrise building was to emerge in an environment of
houses from the 19 century, and so I continued
th

this block matrix in part. Close by is the so-called

Bundeslndergebnde from the first generation
of tall buildings in Vienna. I reacted to this with
a metal box, pulled back from the building line,
which in turn created a public space. The glass
structure, which is slanted towards the top, points
to the future. This was not just about an individ
ual building, but about object integrated into the
urban fabric. In my earlier conceptions about the
city, you can see floating structures above the city,
and this is the case with the Monte Laa project
in a geometrised form in this case one other
level above the city, above the densely built city.
Vienna is one of the few cities that have not had
any growth in population in 1910 Vienna had a
population of 2.1 million, today it has 1.8 million.
The expansion of Vienna is a question of comfort

another city, so to say, at specific points over such

an existing city.
There is also another question that I am always
concerned with (there was already mention of
the Mnchengladbach museum Vienna unfor
tunately lost the opportunity in not accepting my
project for the Zentralsparkasse in Floridsdorf as
a walk-on building) and that is the possibility of
negotiating the whole envelope of a building. In the
Mnchengladbach museum you can pass through
everything, except the administration tower and
the shed roofs of the exhibition halls. This is an ur
ban question. In that way, the building is included
in urban life both day and night. One more thing I
started using metal as a building material and as
a faade material very early on (Retti shop) and so
too in Mnchengladbach. There the faades of the
exhibition halls are clad in titanium zinc and that
is a city museum. We had to be very economical
with the city budget, but they did say they did not
want sheet metal on the faade, and wouldnt we
rather use stone, even if it is a bit more expensive.
I told them if you still have money, I would have
much more on my list, so lets leave the sheet met
al. After Mnchengladbach, interestingly enough,
the majority of museums now have sheet metal
faades. During the opening of the Bilbao, Gehry
said that the Bilbao would not have been possible
without Mnchengladbach.
oris

As were already talking about Mnchenglad

bach, this brings to mind the question of the flow
of interior spaces. Its not a classic enfilade, nor
the modernist concept of plan libre. In fact, it is
more a mixture of these concepts.
hans hollein

Yes, its a matrix. I started out from the idea that

specific spaces are better for specific objects of

Uinili smo to u svezi sa mojim Media lines, gdje

in this case the light-coloured line which will always

sam jednostavno upotrijebio Ariadn

inu nit. Kako

lead us towards one point if we should get lost.

bismo se mogli orijentirati u najrazliitijim pros

tornim situacijama, moramo imati jedan element,

oris

ba te svjetlosne-obojene linije, koje e nas, ako

This creates spatial episodes, possibilities of how

se izgubimo, uvijek opet odvesti ka jednoj toki.

to show various exponents in a different way.

oris

hans hollein

Time se stvaraju prostorne epizode i mogunosti

Yes, just like that, and it was copied often. If you

kako razliite eksponate pokazati na drugaiji nain.

look at the layout of the main spaces of the Mn

chengladbach, you can go everywhere, there are

hans hollein

always stairs to be found, with which you can exit,

Da, to je tako, a bilo je i esto kopirano. Ako pogle

you determine your own path, and it is without

date tlocrt glavnih prostora Mnchengladbacha,

obstacles. There are no doors to be in conflict with

vidite moete svuda ui, uvijek se nau stepenice

the paintings. I can pass through quickly or stop

kojima ete izai. Svoj put odreujete sami i on je

therefore, there are various speeds.

bez zapreka. Nema nikakvih vrata koja bi bila u su

kobu sa slikama. Mogu brzo proi ili se zaustavljati

oris

dakle postoje razliite brzine.

I would like to recall another statement by Kenneth

Frampton about the theatrical moment in your

Izloba Traum und

Wirklichkeit/
exhibition Dream
and Reality,
Knstlerhaus, Be /
Vienna, 1984.-85.

oris

work: Hollein has been most at ease in theatrical

Podsjetila bih na jo jedan citat Kennetha Framptona

or commodity context, he plays freely with the

o teatralnom momentu u vaem radu: Hollein se naj

bolje osjea u teatralnom kontekstu, on se slobodno
igra sa ulnim i prolaznim simbolima. Pritom se
mo`e pomisliti na jednu vau sliku s izlo`be Traum
und Wirklichkeit na portret mlade carice Elisabete
obavijene oblakom najfinijeg tila konfrontiran sa

enfilada, ali ni koncept moderne plan libre. Zapravo

modern art. What I tried to avoid, and this today is

je dolo do mjeavine tih koncepata.

understandable in itself, is passing in a straight line

from halls 1 to 20. This is what I absolutely didnt

hans hollein

want, because I believed that this linear connection

To je matrica. Polazio sam od toga da su odreeni

is not always a given, especially not in modernism.

prostori bolji za odreene objekte moderne umjet

If we say that Mondrian and Dali in Paris worked

nosti. Ono to nikako nisam htio, a to je danas samo

door to door, so to speak what could we do. With

po sebi razumljivo, je da se prolazi pravocrtno od

the Venetians and similar periods, there is still the

sale 1 do sale 20. To apsolutno nisam htio, jer sam

possibility of a chronological order. But if we were to

smatrao da ta linearna povezanost nije uvijek dana,

exhibit chronologically 1930 Dali, 1931 Mondrian,

osobito ne u modernoj. Recimo Mondrian i Dali su u

1932 Mondrian again, 1933 Dali this would all be

Parizu radili takorei vrata uz vrata pa to da se

synchronous. I simply selected a matrix and various

radi. Kod Venecijanaca i slinih perioda jo je mogu

paths exist within that matrix. The primary idea was

kronoloki redoslijed. No ako bih izloio kronoloki

that one passes through the museum as through a

1930. Dali, 1931. Mondrian, 1932. jo jednom

landscape.

Mondrian, 1933. Dali sve je to bilo istodobno. Je

dnostavno sam izabrao matricu, a unutar te matrice

oris

postoje razliiti putovi. Primarna je ideja da se kroz

It is important that a labyrinth then appears.

muzej ide kao kroz krajolik.

hans hollein
oris

Yes. Mnchengladbach has something of a labyrinth.

Vano je spomenuti da time nastaje labirint.

But we made provisions, so the visitor does not get

lost. We did this in connection to my Media lines,

104

hans hollein

where I simply used Ariadnes thread. In order for

Da, Mnchengladbach ima neto od labirinta. No

us to be able to orient ourselves in the most varied

predvidjeli smo naine da se posjetilac ne izgubi.

of spatial situations, we need to have one element,

okrvavljenom uniformom Franza Ferdinanda. Iz tih

suprotnosti nastaju sinteze s konotacijama emocija
i saznanja.
hans hollein

Ali u tome nema nita teatralno!

oris

Ipak se radi o inscenaciji.

sensuous and transient symbols. Here one thinks

of one of your paintings from the exhibition Traum
und Wirklichkeit Dream and Reality a portrait
of the young Empress Elisabeth wrapped in a cloud
of the finest tulle, confronted by the bloody uniform
of Franz Ferdinand. A synthesis with connotations of
emotions and perception emerges from these two
opposing elements.
hans hollein

But there is nothing theatrical in that!

oris

Still, it is about staging.

hans hollein

hans hollein

Every urbanism is staging, Ringstrasse is staging,

Svaki urbanizam je inscenacija, Ringstrasse je

Lissitzkys Lenin Tribune is staging. But the picture

inscenacija, govornica za Lenjina od Lissitzkog je

inscenacija. No slika o kojoj govorite dio je cjelo
kupnog arhitektonskog koncepta, koji u jasnoj
formi pokazuje odreene sklopove. Prednost je te
stvari, u tome sluaju ikonografske stvari, da sam
tamo jednostavno stavio Sissi s njenim privatnim
portretom, s njenim zvijezdama u kosi, a nasuprot
tome uniformu, te sam tako prikazao problematiku
1. svjetskog rata. Ovdje je u odreenoj formi itava
stvar prikazana jednim udarcem. Sigurno, treba
ii jo dublje, ali to su bile realnosti, nije to bila
teatarska krv. Kad smo uniformu stavljali u vitrinu,
jo se iz nje trusila zgruana krv. Mislim da je to
u tom sluaju i velika razlika izmeu teatarske
inscenacije i jedne takve inscenacije bilo je to

you mention is part of the entire architectural

concept, which in a clear way shows certain com
plexes. The advantage of that object, in that case,
the iconographic object, is that I simply placed
Sissi with her private portrait there, with her stars
in her hair and opposite to that, the uniform, and
in this way I showed the problem area of the First
World War. Here in a certain form, with one blow,
the entire scene is shown. Certainly, one needs to
go more in depth, but those were realities, it was
not stage blood. When we placed the uniform in the
display case, coagulated blood was still flaking off
it. I think that in that case it is a great difference
between theatre staging and such a staging it
was more of a dialectical confrontation. Everyone

ipak vie jedno dijalektiko sueljavanje. Svatko

on the basis of that can immediately understand

zadatak bio je npr. bar jednom sam pitao Miesa

be quantified mood, atmosphere, that which

si na temelju toga moe odmah predstaviti pro

the problem, without having to know very much,

to je najtea zadaa u arhitekturi, a on je rekao da

cannot be expressed in square meters or in luxes.

blematiku; ne mora mnogo znati, ali se moe

being able to get information with the help of other

su to bar i crkva. Funkcionalni program jednog bara

A recurrent assignment was, for example, a bar I

informirati uz pomo drugih eksponata i fusnota.

exhibits and footnotes. Similar to this is the object

ili crkve posve je jednostavan, ali to e od toga

had once asked Mies what was the most difficult

Slian tome je objekt kog sam nedavno napravio

I recently made for Genoa. Genoa is currently the

nastati, u tome se onda vidi kreativnost arhitekta.

assignment in architecture and he replied a bar

za Genovu. Genova je trenutno europska prijestol

European City of Culture (for 2004) and they invited

To je ono to sam kod studenata htio razviti. Va

and a church. The functional program of a bar or

nica kulture, pa su pozvali umjetnike i arhitekte

artists and architects to display public sculptures

no mi je bilo razviti mogunosti cjelovitog izraza

church is quite simple, but what will become of it

da u gradu izloe objekte. Moj je objekt ovakav:

in the city, and my sculpture was the following: a

svakog pojedinca.

is where the architects creativity comes into play.

Zlatno tele, vagon za prijevoz nafte, pravi vagon

golden calf a petrol waggon, a real waggon 15m

This is what I wished to develop with the students.

15 m dugaka koju smo pozlatili, i svakome je,

long, which we gilded and it was clear to everyone,

It was important for me to be able to develop the

od gradonaelnika nanie, bilo jasno to se time

from the mayor onwards, what was meant by this.

integral expression of an individual.

htjelo rei.
oris
oris

You spent a long time as a professor and had

Vi ste dugo bili profesor i imali kontakt sa studenti

contact with students and future architects. How

ma i buduim arhitektima. Kako danas gledate na

do you view the teaching profession these days?

nastavniku djelatnost?
hans hollein

106

hans hollein

Today the future for an architect is very insecure and

Danas je budunost arhitekta vrlo nesigurna i

difficult. I have often noticed that young people have

teka. esto sam vidio da mladi ljudi imaju krive

misled conceptions about this profession. There is a

predodbe o tome zvanju. Postoji grupa onih koji

group that sees themselves in a speeding Porsche,

se vide u jureem Porscheu, zatim oni koji misle

and then those that think it is enough to make some

da je dovoljno napraviti neki plan, a sve drugo e

kind of architectural plan and that everything else

ve obaviti graevinsko poduzee. Sigurno neu

will be taken care of by the construction contrac

svakome savjetovati da studira arhitekturu. No,

tor. I certainly wouldnt advise everyone to study

to se tie same nastave imao sam najprije

architecture. But as far as teaching goes I first

priliku poduavati u SAD-u, pa i kasnije ee kao

had the opportunity to tutor in the USA and later

gost profesor, zatim na Akademiji u Dsseldorfu,

more frequently as a guest professor, followed by

te konano na Hochschule fr angewandte Kunst

the Academy in Dsseldorf, and finally at the Hoch

u Beu. Za mene je to bila uvijek vrlo dobra,

schule fr Angewandte Kunst in Vienna. For me this

dapae luksuzna situacija. Bio sam suoen s

was always a very good, even luxury situation. I was

manjim brojem studenata, kod nas na Hochschule

confronted with a smaller number of students, at the

su majstorske klase brojile najvie 40 studenata.

Hochschule in the Masters classes the number of

Moglo se intenzivno baviti potrebama pojedinaca

students was never more than 40. You could work

i gledati kako se netko razvija dalje. Nikad nisam

intensively on an individuals needs and observe

poduavao princ ipijelne dogme. Poticao sam

how someone continued to develop. I never taught

kreativnost pojedinca. Vano je da se studenti

dogma. I encouraged an individuals creativity. It is

mogu izraziti, ne samo pomou crtea, render

important that students can express themselves,

inga i sl. ve i verbalno, da mogu sudjelovati u

not only with the help of drawings, renderings and

diskusiji. Nastavom su uvijek bila obuhvaena

similar, but also verbally, that they can participate

razliita podruja, bilo je prijelaza u oblikovanje

in a discussion. The classes always encompassed

interijera, u urbanizam. Vladala je konceptualna

various fields, there were crossings over to interior

sloboda. Sam nastavni program bio je dosta slo

design, to urban planning. Conceptual freedom

bodno oblikovan, to je na manjoj koli mogue.

reigned. The curriculum itself was fairly freely put

Najvanije korekture imali smo od 7 naveer do

together, which is possible in a smaller school. We

ponoi. Najangairaniji studenti ostajali su naj

had the most important encounters from 7 in the

dulje i tada je tek postalo zanimljivo. Radi se o

evening to midnight. The most committed students

tome da se na osnovu konkretnih projekata dobije

stayed the longest and it was then that it became

principijelni stav prema arhitekturi.

interesting. It is about that, that on the basis of

Uvijek mi je bilo vano i posredovanje takvih

concrete projects one gains a principled standpoint

elemenata arhitekture koji se ne daju kvantifici

towards architecture.

rati dakle ugoaj, atmosfera, ono to se ne da

For me it was always important for the intervention

izraziti u kvadratnim metrima ili luksovima. est

of such elements of architecture, which cannot

Zlatno tele / The

Golden Calf - instalacija
/ installation, Arti
&Architettura, Genova,
2004.