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Posted 03 October 2012 - 09:26 AM

Respected Members,
what is the main purpose of property modifiers in defining farme sections in
etabs and how we can relate them to theoretical knowledge??
Experience serves not only to confirm theory, but differs from it without disturbing it, it
leads to new truths which theory only has not been able to reach.
- Dalembert

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Rana Waseem
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Posted 04 October 2012 - 04:16 AM

Property modifiers in etabs are used to model cracked behaviour of concrete


sections. They are only applied to concrete members because of cracking.
Gross moment of inertia is bd^3/12 for a rectangular section, but when you
make this member of concrete, it will experience cracking when loaded after
some time. This cracking will happen when concrete reaches its tensile capacity
which is about 7-10% of its compressive strength. Formula to calculate cracking
moments are given in ACI. For example 3000psi will have only 300psi of tensile
strength. Actually the reinforcement starts its work when concrete cracks
because of tension. After cracking concrete is no longer able to carry tension so
steel starts taking the tension.
So now if concrete cracks after 300psi the moment of inertia will be reduced
because of cracking. If moment of inertia is reduced, its stiffness is reduced,
taking less moment, and its deflection increases because of less stiffness.
This moment which the cracked beam is not taking anymore will be re
distributed to other structural members based on their stiffness.
If you read ACI chapter 10, there are many sets of modifiers used for different
types of analysis.

ok im leaving from office, if you have more doubts i will write in later.

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Umar Makhzumi
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Posted 04 October 2012 - 08:04 AM

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The use of these property modifiers coefficients should be for serviceability.


Update: Members should be checked for strength checks also using cracked
section properties.
Edited by Umar Makhzumi, 12 November 2014 - 12:15 PM.
Updated Answer

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Rana Waseem
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Posted 05 October 2012 - 07:50 AM
'Umar Makhzumi', on 04 Oct 2012 - 8:34 PM, said:
The use of these property modifiers coefficients is for serviceability checks only, not for
strength checks.

please explain more as i here im a little confused about your statement.


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Posted 05 October 2012 - 10:12 AM

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'Rana Waseem', on 05 Oct 2012 - 8:20 PM, said:


please explain more as i here im a little confused about your statement.

Deflections are affected, not the reinforcement. you can check that manually.
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life; and life is art, drama, music, and most importantly, people. Fazlur R. Khan

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Rana Waseem
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Posted 05 October 2012 - 02:13 PM
'Umar Makhzumi', on 05 Oct 2012 - 10:42 PM, said:
Deflections are affected, not the reinforcement. you can check that manually.

WITH MODIFIERS (MORE INERTIA) MORE STIFFNESS SO MORE MOMENT

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Posted 05 October 2012 - 02:16 PM

WITHOUT MODIFIERS LESS MOMENT LESS STIFFNESS

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Posted 05 October 2012 - 02:20 PM

So just compare the two images, model having modifiers have less stiffness, so
take less moment, that moment is distributed to other stiff elements.
so the point is if you reduce the stiffness as in case of cracking, it will affect
deflection as well as moments. so the reinforcement values depend upon the
moment. I agree with you that in beam design formula, it depends upon b and d.
Now this b and d are not with modifiers rather full values.
But the moment which has to be used in this formual is less because of less
stiffness due to reduction in modifiers.
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Posted 05 October 2012 - 02:23 PM

another thing. if you put the same modifiers for every thing like walls, columns,
beams, floor etc..so the reduction will be uniform it will not affect the results. but
if you make something stiffer and another less stiffer so you basically are
creating differences in stiffness so is the difference in the moment that will goto
these elements. like in this example i have applied
beams = 0.35,0.35,0.35 (j,m22,m33)
cols = 0.7,0.7 (m11,m22)
slab = 0.25,0.25,0.25 (m11,m12,m22)
walls = 0.7,0.7(m11,m22)
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Posted 06 October 2012 - 12:53 AM

Umar is right. Use section modifiers for serviceability checks.


Quote
beams = 0.35,0.35,0.35 (j,m22,m33)
cols = 0.7,0.7 (m11,m22)
slab = 0.25,0.25,0.25 (m11,m12,m22)
walls = 0.7,0.7(m11,m22)

This set of modifiers are mentioned in section 10.11.1 of 05 addition which is


dedicated to computation of lateral deflections of frame. Remember that code
specifications are based on worst case scenario, and these values are worst
case scenario for lateral deflections of frame.
For elastic analysis of frame it is OK to use gross properties based on
rectangular section as it is done in ETABS . We provide rectangular beam section
properties in ETABS, but cast in place beam has T section in positive region
while rectangular section in negative region, so using rectangular section along
entire length compensates for that.
Moreover if bottom reinforcement of beam is developed in column, as it is
normally done, it increases stiffness of beam in negative region. Amount of
reinforcement provided in section also plays its role and we dont know how
much reinforcement will be required before starting analysis.
Bottom line: it is complex topic and one have to use assumptions. Even if one is
using 0.35 and 0.7 factors to size the xsection of member, structure should still
stand provided assumptions are uniform through out the analysis, as concrete
has this ability to distribute moments according to provided reinforcement.

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Posted 06 October 2012 - 05:44 AM

I know in the code these modifiers are for lateral deflection. but then how would
you justify the reduced moment of inertia after cracking? Are you talking about
membrane slab which has no out of plane stiffness? Yeah in membrane the
modfiers will not affect but in shell if you dont apply the modifers, the slab will
carry all the moment.
I just want to be more clear about the concept, because we apply modfiers in
every model. and according to ACI we can use the same modifiers set for lateral
and for strength design. (for wind serviceability the modifiers are multiplied by
1.4 in a separate model).
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Posted 06 October 2012 - 06:02 AM

What you do is according to code. There is nothing wrong about it.

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Umar Makhzumi
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Posted 06 October 2012 - 10:26 AM

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'Rana Waseem', on 06 Oct 2012 - 6:14 PM, said:


I know in the code these modifiers are for lateral deflection. but then how would you justify
the reduced moment of inertia after cracking? Are you talking about membrane slab which
has no out of plane stiffness? Yeah in membrane the modfiers will not affect but in shell if
you dont apply the modifers, the slab will carry all the moment.
I just want to be more clear about the concept, because we apply modfiers in every model.
and according to ACI we can use the same modifiers set for lateral and for strength design.
(for wind serviceability the modifiers are multiplied by 1.4 in a separate model).

I think, considering LRFD load factors provides enough factor of safety.


Specifically you can never "justify reduced moment of inertia after cracking" and
no one knows how real the exact cracking would be, what would be its extent
and how different the load distribution would be after that.

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Posted 06 October 2012 - 10:39 AM

@RANA when we say that uncracked section has more inertia and more stiffness
and more moment taking but cracked section has less inertia and less stiffness
and less moment taking,inertia is the geometric property moment taking is
related to strength, uncracked concrete section has less strength than cracked
section so sir Rana what do you say about that?also in case of concrete when
section is cracked it means it has started taking loads otherwise its strength is
not fully generated so what about the stiffness of cracked and uncracked
section?
Experience serves not only to confirm theory, but differs from it without disturbing it, it
leads to new truths which theory only has not been able to reach.
- Dalembert

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Posted 06 October 2012 - 10:41 AM

please differentiate shell and membrane ?how do we say that one slab is
membrane and other is shell or plate ?
Experience serves not only to confirm theory, but differs from it without disturbing it, it
leads to new truths which theory only has not been able to reach.
- Dalembert

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Umar Makhzumi
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Posted 06 October 2012 - 10:54 AM

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'waqar saleem', on 06 Oct 2012 - 11:11 PM, said:


please differentiate shell and membrane ?how do we say that one slab is membrane and
other is shell or plate ?

for simplicity, remember this


if it has out of plane stiffness its shell, if not its membrane.

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Posted 06 October 2012 - 10:55 AM
'waqar saleem', on 06 Oct 2012 - 11:11 PM, said:
please differentiate shell and membrane ?how do we say that one slab is membrane and
other is shell or plate ?

membrane is capable of taking tensile stresses only like our skin or tarpal (urdu
word). Word slab used in structural engineering cant be membrane.
shall is capable of taking shear and moment. Any thing that can take shear or
moment can also take direct tension or compression.
plate is shell/slab loaded in its plane like shear wall.

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Posted 06 October 2012 - 11:01 AM
'waqar saleem', on 06 Oct 2012 - 11:09 PM, said:
@RANA when we say that uncracked section has more inertia and more stiffness and more
moment taking but cracked section has less inertia and less stiffness and less moment
taking,inertia is the geometric property moment taking is related to strength, uncracked
concrete section has less strength than cracked section so sir Rana what do you say about
that?also in case of concrete when section is cracked it means it has started taking loads
otherwise its strength is not fully generated so what about the stiffness of cracked and
uncracked section?

flexural stiffness of section is ability to attract moments. so cracked section will


attract lesser moment as only part of section is available to resist rotation. Do
not confuse moment attracting ability( stiffness) of section with its strength.
Section with lesser stiffness can have greater strength as it depends upon
material strengths, reinforcement and size and shape crossection.

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Posted 06 October 2012 - 11:09 AM


Quote
@RANA when we say that uncracked section has more inertia and more stiffness and more
moment taking but cracked section has less inertia and less stiffness and less moment
taking,inertia is the geometric property moment taking is related to strength, uncracked
concrete section has less strength than cracked section so sir Rana what do you say about
that?also in case of concrete when section is cracked it means it has started taking loads
otherwise its strength is not fully generated so what about the stiffness of cracked and
uncracked section?
Quote
flexural stiffness of section is ability to attract moments. so cracked section will attract
lesser moment as only part of section is available to resist rotation. Do not confuse moment
attracting ability( stiffness) of section with its strength. Section with lesser stiffness can have
greater strength as it depends upon material strengths, reinforcement and size and shape
crossection.

To sum it here, design your members for augmented loads(with load factors)
and check them for serviceability with cracked section.. its a conservative way,
super conservative to get good design. All members are good, even if they crack
and meet serviceability requirements (which may be different upon their
intended use).
Update: Members should also be checked for strength using cracked sections. Its
more safe to apply to both serviceability and strength conditions.

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Posted 06 October 2012 - 11:24 AM

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'baz', on 06 Oct 2012 - 11:25 PM, said:


membrane is capable of taking tensile stresses only like our skin or tarpal (urdu word). Word
slab used in structural engineering cant be membrane.

shall is capable of taking shear and moment. Any thing that can take shear or moment can
also take direct tension or compression.
plate is shell/slab loaded in its plane like shear wall.

here is an excerpt from on of my fav books on structural design, I read it some 3


years back, and it always reminds me how we structural engineers can exploit
material properties to achieve robust designs.

Quote
Because concrete is easily formed and shaped, its compression strength makes it the ideal
material
for shells of any nature. The work of Felix Candela in developing plates and shells wherein he
spans 100 m with a 5 cm concrete shell truly opens the possibility for the free form Catiadriven
shapes of Gehry Buildings in concrete.
Concrete is perfect for membrane stresses. The potential was realized in my design of the
120 ft
diameter roof of the Lebanon Senior High School. This roof was flat and was spanned using a
20 in.
thick hollow slab. This span and thickness of concrete were made possible by the fact that as
a circular
shell deflects, it creates compression in membrane stresses, thus minimizing the deflection.
Dr. Timoshenko, the father of concrete plates and shells, shows that the span of a circular
slab is
represented by the radius of the circle rather than its diameter.

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