The Guru-Disciple Relationship

HIS EMINENCE TAI SITU RINPOCHE

Essentially Good
Calligraphy by H.E. Tai Situ Rinpoche

Thar Lam

APRIL 2008

was requested to teach Guru devotion and on the

Guru-disciple relationship, those were the precise
words used by our dharma sister here, our host. Guru
is translated into Tibetan as Lama. La means above and
ma means mother, so somebody who is above you, who
you respect, learn from, and who cares for you like a
mother. That is Lama. Lama is for all sentient beings.
Then you have your personal Guru from whom you are
learning the dharma.
A Guru became a Guru because he received dharma
teachings and practised from his Guru. His Guru became
a Guru because of his Guru, all Gurus, because great
masters like Marpa describe more than a hundred Gurus.
So, from whom you learn the dharma. And that dharma
is dharma with a lineage, then it is Guru, your Guru.
I dont know exactly what the Sanskrit word Guru
means. Because my monastery is in the middle of forest,
when it was being built I mingled with everybody.
Carpenters, everybody is working, and they had some kind
of metal thing for measuring and they called it guru
(Audience: In Sanskrit Guru means the dispeller of
darkness, the dispeller of ignorance. Gu is darkness and
ru is what dispels darknessthe bulb, the light. So for a
Mason a guru is that which gives him the exact
measurement and how he can construct something.) I
see, the one who makes it correct. It is symbolic
terminology. It means someone who makes things right,
someone who shows the way if you dont know your way.
Okay, so that is the Sanskrit terminology and definition
which Im just learning here.

IMPORTANCE OF A GURU

he importance of the Guru is described by Buddha

in almost all of his teachings. For example, in tantric
teachings of course every teaching is involved with Guru
devotion and all of that, but even within Mahayana
teachings such as the Prajnaparamita teachings the Buddha
says A good disciple who has devotion to the Guru should
always learn and receive from a knowledgeable, learned
Guru. Why? Because that way you will have the
knowledge and knowledge will derive from it. Another
Prajnaparamita text says: This way, any bodhisattva who
wishes to attain Buddhahood, first of all they should learn
and be with a Guru, a master. And also they should uphold
and serve the master. This is also in the Prajnaparamita
teachings which are Mahayana teachings. Then of course
in the Vajrayana teachings, Guru yoga and Guru devotion
are the main part of every practice and every teaching. So
I dont have to refer to that, its everywhere.
Then also the kind of philosophical or intellectual
way to confirm the importance of the Guru, it says,
Anybody who wishes to attain omniscience has to have a

Guru, because without a Guru you dont know how to

accumulate the merit and how to purify your defilements.
You dont know, so that is one example. Then, who? It
says all the past, present and future Buddhas [had a Guru].
So that way, philosophically, you can see how it is
impossible for you to learn something that you dont know
without learning it from somebody who does know.
Because, how do you get something you dont have without
getting it from somebody who has it? This is another way
to learn about the Guru.
Another one is an example: if you want to go to a
new land you need a guide, otherwise you dont know
how to get there. You might get there, but after making
so many mistakes, some place where you can get in three
days might take three months if you have nobody showing
you how to go and how to get there. So if you have a
guide it will be quite simple.
Also, if you are going to a dangerous place you need
company. Otherwise, if you go by yourself an anaconda
might get you. But if there are a few of you, then one can
shoot the anaconda and another one can pull you out of
it, you know, all kinds of things can be done to save you.

Thar Lam APRIL 2008

One of you might be sleeping while another one is

watching and when that one falls asleep then another one
might be watching. That way, going alone and going with
others help makes a big difference.
Also if you want to cross a river you need a boat and
when you have a boat you need a sailor. So these things
are examples, practical examples.
So when we wish to achieve Buddhahood, when we
wish to reach enlightenment, then we need lots of guidance
and lots of transmissions. And when we try to overcome
the suffering of samsara and overcome the menace of
defilements we need company, we need help, we need all
of this. So these are the examples.

FOUR TYPES OF GURUS

here are many kinds of Gurus, not just one kind of

Guru but many types. One of them is, for example,
an ordinary unenlightened sentient being Guru. Second
is an enlightened Guru, enlightened as a bodhisattva.
Third is a nirmanakaya Buddha Guru. Fourth is a
sambhogakaya Buddha Guru. This is a simple way to look
at the types of Gurus, the four types. There are countless
types, but four types are mentioned in this text.
The Guru, an ordinary person who is not an
enlightened bodhisattva, is according to the disciple.
Because according to the disciples capacity then that kind
of Guru will be met. How do we learn from a nirmanakaya
Buddha? How do we learn from a sambhogakaya Buddha?
We have to be a bodhisattva who has attained at least
several bodhisattva levels or bhumis in order to learn from
a sambhogakaya Buddha. In the beginning we have a Guru
who is an ordinary unenlightened Guru, but that Guru
becomes a Guru because he has the lineage and is

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APRIL 2008

practising and has the ability to

teach and help.
For example, if you are
going through some difficult
terrain with lots of wild people
and wild animals you need a
Guru who is brave and strong
and able to ward them away, able
to protect you from them. You
dont need a Guru who is skinny
and who can hardly walk, who
has a back problem, neck
problem and a knee problem!
Then you will be helping the
Guru. So it depends on what
level you are, then what kind of
Guru you need, then what kind
of Guru you will have. It starts
with the first Guru and then gradually it will be upgraded
according to your development. So those are the four
general descriptions of types of Guru.

QUALITIES OF A GURU

lso the qualities of the Guruof course nirmanakaya

Buddhas and sambhogakaya Buddhas are something
we dont need much of an explanation of. Also a
bodhisattva who has reached realisation of certain bhumis
we dont need much explanation of. But a Guru who is an
ordinary sentient being, who has not reached that level of
realisation, then the qualities and characteristics of that
Guru we can learn and is quite meaningful to go into
some details about.
Now the basic principles, the Guru must have the
lineage, number one. If you are learning a certain text
from one Guru, in order for that person to be your Guru
for learning that text, that Guru must have a lineage of
that text. That is number one. Lineage includes that the
Guru did not break his or her samaya with his Guru.
Even if he had the lineage, if he broke his samaya, the
lineage is gone, the lineage is not there. Then he is not
really a Guru. He might be a teacher, he might be your
tutor, but not a Guru.
Then also, not only having the lineage, but the
person must have the ability to teach and transmit,
because you might have the lineage, you might not have
broken the samaya, but if you dont have the ability to
transmit it to others, then the quality is not there. So
this other quality is the ability to communicate the
lineage which the Guru has.
Another characteristic of the ordinary sentient being
Guru is already included in the first description, but being

a bit more specific, it is, being sincerely devoted to his or

her Guru. You cannot have a Guru who talks badly about
his Guru, who has no respect and devotion to his Guru.
You cannot have a Guru that is not a right Guru. A Guru
has to be devoted to his or her Guru.
Then, another one that goes with it without saying
is, a Guru should at least believe and try to implement
the teaching that he is conferring to you. It is not
[sufficient] that he has the transmission and he has
devotion to his Guru and he is conversant with the texts
but he himself is not really one hundred percent believing
in it and trying to implement it. The best would be, of
course, if he was totally practising it, but if not, at least
trying to practise it and having the belief.
Of course the most important basic quality of a Guru
should be that he would not break the bodhisattva vow
even at the cost of his life. That should be the bottom line
of the Guru. So the Guru will not break the bodhisattva
vow even if it costs him or her his or her life. The
bodhisattva vow means: I will attain Buddhahood for
the benefit of all sentient beings. Even ones enemies: if I
have a chance to liberate my enemy I will do it without
any hesitation. If I have a chance to make my worst enemy
become Buddha right away, if I have that opportunity, I
will do it, right away. Even if somebody who tried to kill
me and torture me, if I have the opportunity to make
that person Buddha, I should be helping that person to
become Buddha without any hesitation. So that is the
basic quality of a Guru. That is an ordinary sentient beings
Guru-quality.
But then there are many other things that are details
about a Guru. A very good Guru, even an ordinary sentient
being Guru, should be only teaching a disciple for the
sake of the disciple. For example, if a Guru needs a good
cook. So the Guru teaches a good cook then the good
cook becomes his disciple. That will not really be a good
Guru. I cant say its terribly bad because the disciple has
an opportunity to accumulate merit by serving the Guru.
That is correct, it will benefit the disciple. But the Gurus
motivation is not that correct so it will not benefit the
Guru that much. So the nice food he is getting from his
good cook-disciple is very costly!
These sorts of things will include many other things.
But the real bottom line is bodhichitta, lineage, devotion
to the Guru, devotion to the practice that you are teaching,
and the ability to teach. This somehow summarises the
ordinary sentient being Guru qualities.

RELATING TO A GURU

ow does a disciple relate to a Guru, the method,

and how does a Guru relate to a disciple? There are

three particular ways it is describedthey are not three

different ways but three things for how a disciple should
relate to a Guru. With respect and care is the first way.
The second is with aspiration and veneration. Aspiration
like: I wish to be like my Guru. Im inspired by my Guru.
I wish to be like Buddha. Buddha is my ultimate Guru.
The Buddhas disciples wish to be like Buddha and their
disciples wish to be like their Gurus and this way it goes
back ultimately to the Buddha, through your Guru. The
third is sincerity and diligence in practice of what you
learn from your Guru. So, first is respect and care. Second
is aspiration and veneration and holiness; you consider your
Guru as holy. The third is: whatever you learn from your
Guru, sincerely, diligently, you practice. That is how we
should implement or how we should be a disciple of a Guru.

BENEFITS OF HAVING A GURU

here are quite few benefits. In tantra, in Vajrayana,

the benefits of the Guru-disciple lineage are very
clearly emphasized everywhere. But even in sutra for
example, it is described that Any bodhisattva who has a
Guru will never fall into lower realms. Any bodhisattva
who is protected by a Guru will never be lured by negative
companions, or unbecoming companions. Any
bodhisattva who is, like somebody is your protg, you
raise them. So any bodhisattva who is raised by a Guru
will never fall back from the Mahayana, from bodhichitta.
And any bodhisattva who is held by a Guru will definitely
overcome and reach above the bhumi of an ordinary
sentient being, will be uplifted from an ordinary sentient
being to an enlightened one. So these are the benefits of
a Guru described in sutras.

THE RELATIONSHIP

his way according to the text I have mentioned about

the Guru-disciple relationship. Now, outside of the
text I would like to talk through my experience and also
through the teachings. Actually there are many levels of
Guru. It depends on the disciple as well as the Guru.
There are many kinds of disciples and many levels of
disciples. And there are many kinds of Gurus and many
levels of Gurus. It depends totally on the disciple and the
Guru. You cannot say The Guru must be like this or A
disciple must be like this in a uniformed manner, because
every Guru is different and every disciple is different. But
the principle of Guru-disciple is very simple: you wish to
attain Buddhahood. That is your ultimate goal in this life
or many lifetimes from now, whatever, that is your ultimate
goal. And you are going to a person to whom you have
faith and trust because that person has the lineage and
Thar Lam APRIL 2008

that person has devotion to his or her Guru and that person
is capable of teaching you, and to that person you have
aspiration, respect and veneration. On top of all of that,
whatever that person teaches you, you are going to practise.
That is what Guru is all about.
The Guru-disciple relationship, when you talk about
relationship it varies with people. It depends on the
characteristics and habits of the Guru and it depends on
the characteristics and habits of the disciple. Some disciples
are impossible and some Gurus are impossible. When an
impossible Guru and an impossible disciple end up with
each other then it is going to be quite tough, but that is
the way it will be. Some Gurus are very mild and some
disciples are very mild, and when the mild Guru and
the mild disciples end up with each other, then everything
is mild! I think personally, being a pragmatic person, I
would say abundance is necessary. The Guru has to have
both strength and flexibility. Disciples also should have
strength and flexibility. Otherwise, extreme is extreme,
no matter whether it is ordinary extreme or holy extreme.
It will be extreme.
So I think all of us should try to be balanced disciples
to our Gurus and balanced Gurus to our disciples. And
also we should have a very clear understanding of whether
there are some boundaries or not. Sometimes no
boundaries, but sometimes boundaries are necessary.
Because everything that we do as a Guru for the disciple
is thinking ones best, to make ones best judgement, so
that it will be beneficial to the disciple. The same way, the
disciple also should have the same kind of balanced attitude
towards their Guru to get the best and most valuable
benefit and blessing from their Guru. It will not happen
by force, by intrigue or by any other way than in a sincere,
mature and honest way.
But sometimes, for example with my experience, some
disciples they never get theI cant say never, but they
have a very hard time in differentiating between sincerity
and honesty and games and intrigue. They cant
differentiate between these. If there is something like that
then it is very difficult because even if the Guru is trying
their best the disciple is thinking of something else.
Sometimes it is very good to put an alarm clock on the
desk rather that having your mother come up and wake
you up by shaking you. Because if you set the alarm clock
by yourself, then when it rings it is your own doing but
when your mummy comes up and shakes you it is your
mummy doing it. So there is a big difference in the
psychology of people and their reactions.
Sometimes I send my disciples to other Gurus because
those other Gurus are more skilled with dealing with such
a person than me. But it doesnt mean I abandoned that
disciple, no. That disciple is my disciple. But if I am only

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APRIL 2008

50 kg and my disciple is 100 kg, I cant lift him up! So I

have to send him to someone who is 150 kg. That way it
is not always what we think, kind of smooth, everything
is going to be smooth, the Guru-disciple relationship is
going to be smooth. It is not necessarily like that. It should
be. A disciples devotion should be unshakeable and a
Gurus compassion should be unshakeable, just like Marpa
and Milarepa. Marpa had to beat Milarepa up and even
torment him. But Marpa acted in such a way because his
compassion never allowed him not to do it. Im sure Marpa
did not want to do those things to Milarepa, but his
compassion was so strong that he had to. And Milarepas
devotion was so strong, that even though Marpa had done
all those things, his devotion grew even deeper and greater.
That way, finally, Milarepa received the transmission from
Marpa and attained Buddhahood. But then we are talking
about a Guru who is very highly enlightened, not an
ordinary sentient being Guru. The way an ordinary
sentient being Guru should be dealing with an ordinary
sentient being disciple is pretty much the way we deal
with everybody, Just come on this time and I will teach
you this and you practise this, and then ask me questions
if you have some problems. That is a regular basic way
to deal with a disciple. A disciple-Guru relationship should
be like that.
Then amongst many disciples, when you have many
disciples, some disciples might do something for you and
some disciples might be doing nothing for you. It depends
on the personal communication and relationship with the
Guru and disciple. Because a Guru might have one
hundred disciples but they all cannot be his secretary or
cook or driver. The Guru wants disciples to do something
for the benefit of dharma, of course, but some disciples it
is better to not let them do anything, just let them practise.
Maybe thats the best way. So it depends on the individual
human relationship. It is not discrimination in a bad way
but wise discrimination. It doesnt mean the Guru has to
make use of every disciple. It does not mean the Guru
should not make the disciples do service for the dharma
or service for the GuruGuru means for the dharma. It
doesnt mean it shouldnt happen. But it does not mean
that it has to happen. It depends on individuals. But what
must happen is, the Guru must teach the dharma and the
disciples must practise the dharma. That is a must. Gurus
must teach the dharma and disciples must practise the
dharma, that is compulsory. Whether disciples do some
service for the Guru or not is optional.
I am a very practical person. For example, if I want
somebody to do something for my monastery, I will use
my best judgement, maybe I am wrong, but I will try to
find a person whom I think can do such work, and that it
will not be a problem for that person, or me, or the

monastery, and everybody who

works for the monastery. Then
I will ask that person to do
something. Otherwise I will
not, because it will be a problem
for me, the monastery, and the
whole staff, and the actual thing
will fall apart. Lets put it this
way: if I want a financial adviser
I will not pick up a person from
the traffic lights. So it is a very
simple thing. And if I want a
good driver, I will definitely find
somebody who has all the
licences and who has good eyes
and ears and who can look right
and left and not day dream.
Then I will be very happy with
that driver. Like that. It has to be realistic, and thats good
for the Guru, good for the disciple and good for all the
other disciples as well.
So a Guru-disciple relationship doesnt have to be one
particular way. A Guru-disciple relationship doesnt have
to be physically close or distant. Some disciples think they
have to be with the Guru, they have to follow the Guru,
they have to be just in front of the Guru and all of this,
thats not necessary. In the Guru-disciple relationship the
main thing, the main issue is to teach the dharma and to
practice the dharma. The core of the Guru-disciple
relationship is that.
On top of that, then various Gurus will have various
relationships with their disciples. Some of them will be
like helpers, some will be like patrons, some of them will
be like a friend. Some of them will be likedefinitely not
like flattering to the Guru, then the disciple is harming
the Guru. I cant say I dont like thatpeople that are
very flattering and praise me saying You are wonderful,
you are this and that. But its actually very harmful to
me because I will have the wrong perception of myself
when I have lots of people around me who are flattering
me. I will get lost. I will think of myself as somebody else.
The courts used to have those guys, sycophants, saying
like, You are great, you are wonderful. I cant say I dont
like that. I dont think there is anybody who doesnt like
somebody saying you are wonderful. There is truth in it.
Everybody likes to be praised. But it is very bad for you,
because you will have a wrong idea of yourself. When you
have a wrong idea of yourself you are bound to make a
fool of yourself because everybody knows what you are.
But you have the wrong idea of what you are because
those people make you think you are something else, so
you act like something else, but everybody knows you are

not. Then you make a fool of yourself. That way the Gurudisciple relationship doesnt mean the disciple has to be
flattering to the Guru! I think there has to be a healthy
relationship, with trust, honour and principle. And that
whole thing has to be based on teaching the dharma and
practising the dharma. With that strong base then you
can have little branches here and there, if it is appropriate.
Disciples can be Gurus helper, disciples can be Gurus
assistants, patrons and staff, all kind of things can be.
So that is a Guru-disciple relationship, very generally
speaking. This will cover Hinayana, Mahayana, and
Vajrayana, all levels of Guru-disciple relationships. In
Hinayana they might not call it exactly Guru, they might
call it something like a Spiritual Friend, an abbot,
something like that, but it is really the same thing. That
is I think what I can say. Now I will let you ask questions
so that we might get to some of the real points that you
might like to raise.
Question: Does one have just one Root Guru and is that
the Guru who first gives you teachings?
Rinpoche: No. Your first Guru is your first Guru, he
is not necessarily your Root Guru. But your first Guru
can be your Root Guru also. Root Guru is Tsawe Lama,
Tsawe means root, Lama means Guru. Actually, the real
definition of Root Guru is: through which Gurus teaching
you reach the highest realisation, the realisation of the
nature of mind. That is your Root Guru. But we have
Root Guru in advance. So, out of many Gurus that we
have, we consider one Guru our Root Guru and we want
to learn from this Guru the main thing. Then this Guru
recommends one to learn something from another Guru.
So we listen to our Guru and receive teachings here and
there and receive this and that lineage but have one Root

Thar Lam APRIL 2008

Guru in our heart. That is quite a common way. That is

Root Guru in advance. And then through that master, all
of your practice is somehow guided by that master. Its
like a river with lots of little streams going into it, so this
is like the main river, like the trunk of a tree. Then, through
this Guru you will follow the practice, but you will receive
many teachings from other Gurus if necessary. That will
be the definition of Root Guru for almost all of us. But
when we recognize the nature of our mind, then we really
have the definition of Root Guru, that person is our Root
Guru, because the root of all the practice is recognising
Buddha nature. That is the purpose of all the practice.
Through whose teaching that is achieved, then that is
ones Root Guru.
But then we also have a very strong clear structure.
We have Vinaya Guru; we have Sutra Guru, that is about
bodhichitta; we have tantric Guru from whom we receive
initiations and all of that. Normally from whom we receive
initiations we consider our very important tantric Guru.
And from whom we receive the bodhisattva vows our very
important bodhisattva lineage Guru. And from whom
we receive the Vinaya vows, like precepts, if you are a
monk or a nun then from whom you receive full
ordination, but if you are a layperson then from whom
you receive the precepts, that is an important Guru. Then
of course the door-opener from whom you receive refuge
is your very important Guru because your door to
Buddhism is opened by this Guru, by giving you refuge.
So the refuge Guru is very important, but not necessarily
the Root Guru but they can be the Root Guru.
Question: A lot of us who receive His Holiness teachings,
we get a lot of initiations from him, but then we want to do
retreat we go to some other Lama because of course we cannot

10

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APRIL 2008

ask His Holiness because he is the

Lama of so many thousands of
people. So we go to another Lama
for the particular retreat
transmission. So would that
particular Lama along with His
Holiness be our Root Guru, at least
for that particular practice?
Rinpoche: Root Guru is all
in your head. You will express
that to your Root Guru, but its
all in you. For example, if you
consideryou were talking
about HH Dalai Lamaso if
you consider HH Dalai Lama
your Root Guru, then he is your
Root Guru. Because all of your
practice is based on his guidance;
the whole stream is flowing through the same one valley,
but then, you are receiving this teaching and that teaching
from other Gurus, so that teacher who taught you the
mantra is your mantra Guru for that particular deity. And
the teacher who taught you the visualisation of that
particular sadhana is the Guru of that particular sadhana
visualisation, then it is very simple.
When you do the Four Foundation practice, like in
Mahamudra, we have to have our Root Guru at that time.
So that Root Guru will be represented by Vajradhara in
the middle. The Vajradhara on top is Buddha and the
Vajradhara in the middle is our Root Guru, but our Root
Guru in this sense is from whom I received this
transmission. So for Mahamudra preliminary practice, my
Root Guru.
For some people it is quite easy, because like myself,
in the Golden Rosary of the Karma Kagyu Lineage, the
Golden Rosary is strictly Karma Kagyu. It is not only
Mahamudra, it is everything. In that the Karmapas are
the Root Guru, the backbone of the Golden Rosary
Lineage is Karmapa, always. For example, the First
Karmapas main disciple was Drogon Rechen, but Drogon
Rechen was not the Root Guru of the Second Karmapa
because Drogon Rechen transmitted the lineage to
Gyaltsab Pomdrakpa. Gyaltsab Pomdrakpa transmitted it
to the Second Karmapa. For me, my Root Guru is the
Sixteenth Karmapa. It is already prescribed, it is already
there. For me it was very easy, it was already there. But for
people who become followers of dharma, new followers,
then you might have a little different thing, you have to
choose your Root Guru. That way it is something else.
Question: Does one really choose a Root Guru?
Rinpoche: You have to decide, yes. You have to decide

saying, I consider this master my Root Guru. It has to

happen that way. Otherwise there will be another thing
you go for many, many teachings and from one master
you receive more and more teachings and then from others
you receive just a little, and then the most important
teachings you receive from one master, then that way the
Root Guru somehow falls into place. If you are talking
about that, that will happen too. It is sort of a natural
evolution, somehow it just takes place; rain falls and small
streams come to the big valley and then the big river just
happens. It could be like that.
Question: In the Tara puja you have to visualise your
Root Guru who wears golden robes and a red hat. Who is he?
Rinpoche: Im not sure which Tara puja you are
referring to. If the pandit has a yellow hat then it must be
Tsongkhapa, the founder of the Gelugpa Lineage. Before
Tsongkhapa the Gelugpa lineage was already there, but
we call it Kadampa. After Tsongkhapa built the Ganden
monastery in Tibet it became Gelug, because its the
tradition of the Ganden monastery.
Same Student: So its not yours?
Rinpoche: No, Im Kagyu. But I also received teachings
of Gelug
Question: I have attended other centres and asked some
foreign Lamas about mantras. They understood the philosophy
very well but didnt seem very convinced about the effectiveness
of tantra and mantras. How does one deal with this?
Rinpoche: I dont know exactly what the problem is
but I have observed something that is in every society,
Asians, Europeans, Americans, Africans. Every society has
some kind of unique perception and that unique
perception goes back to the Stone Age and all the way up
to today.
In the West I found one thing that is quite common
to most of the Europeans. Americans are made out of
Europeans and Asians, its quite different, but for
Europeans there is one common thing, there is some
disillusionment or dislike about rituals. I think lots of
things happened in every country, there was all the
industrial revolution, inquisition, so many things
happened that people have some kind of similar reaction
to similar things in Europe. I think it might have
something to do with that. Because ritual, mantra
chanting, chanting, all of these things are quite similar in
every religion, Christian, Islam, Hinduism, Judaism; ritual
and chanting are similar. So when you have some kind of
disillusion about one type of thing, then you will have
some scepticism about a similar thing.
I find a more easy and natural appreciation for just
sitting and relaxing and being calm, that sort of thing in

the West. People who come to the teachings, learning

dharma practice, many of them practice dharma just to
be more happy, more peaceful, more calm, and less stressed,
for that purpose. Not so much for the next life. Not so
much for becoming Buddha. Do you understand? They
want the effect right now.
Student: More for stress management?
Rinpoche: Almost like that. Some go to that extent.
Some go a little bit deeper than that, but sort of. That I
saw in the West. For example, in France, many people are
very sceptical about rituals and those kinds of things. At
the same time there are many people, because they are
sceptical they are interested, it is challenging. Like rock
climbing, it is difficult; you dont have to climb the rock,
you can leave it there and sit here. But people like to do it
because it is challenging to them. So I also find people
keeping skull cups and bone trumpets and skull dhamarus
and things like that, and they are very fond of them. It is
mystical, it is a ritual, mystique. That is the other side.
The other side is to be very sceptical about all of this,
like our next birth, karma. All these things are accepted
by individuals, but deep inside there is something not
very certain, it doesnt hold, thinking, Well, maybe,
maybe not, but it doesnt matter it makes me feel
compassionate and happy, compassion is a good thing.
Anyway, why do I have to worry about the next life, Ill
be compassionate and happy in this life. That is very
much there, deep inside, in many people. So maybe when
you asked a question, whoever answered that they are not
sure, maybe it is coming from that. The good thing is
being honest. An honest teacher is a good teacher. Anyway,
I saw that. In our society we dont have that, we are totally
the opposite of that.
Student: Do you doubt the mantras?
Rinpoche: No, I dont. If I doubt the mantras I am
finished! Mantra is mantra, just talking. I mean, we are
talking, this is also mantra, and sound, this is also mantra,
so how can we have doubt? Everything is mantra.
Everything is mudra. I dont doubt.
Question: When giving initiations, is there a possibility
of a Guru accepting more disciples than he or she can manage?
Rinpoche: Not really, originally yes. During the time
of Tilopa, Naropa, Maitripa, Marpa and Milarepa
initiations were very rare. And also initiations are given
stage by stage, most of the time. Each initiation is a practice
in itself. For example, in the fourth initiation you have to
recognize the nature of mind. That way, if you are doing
that kind of initiation for thousands of people together,
yes, of course. But then in Tibet the tradition evolved so
that initiations were given to the masses as a blessing.
Out of that, very few are really receiving initiations one

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11

by one and then practising them. Most of them come for

the blessing, to be in the mandala, to receive the blessing,
to get the water to drink and pills to eat. To get touched
by the blessed objects, to look at the mandala and to hear
the sound. That way it is not too much.
But of course if empowerments were given just like
how Tilopa gave to Naropa, then it would be impossible to
give it to masses, then also the disciples would have to wait
for ages and ages and so many years would pass before they
received the initiation. Milarepa had to build a nine-storey
building by himself, and earlier on three of them had to be
knocked down. The building still stands today after more
than a thousand years. He built it by himself, just with his
own hands in Lhodrak, near the Bhutan-Tibet border. That
way, disciples have to wait for a long, long time. But now,
the same initiation, but given as a blessing, like a sermon,
like a puja, a blessing empowerment.
Question: When does it go beyond blessing?
Rinpoche: It goes beyond the blessing when it becomes
beyond the blessing. That means you are taking the
empowerment, not just sitting there and chit chatting with
your friends or having a snack in the middle. Actually
thats what happens. The initiation takes for four to five
days and people come with a thermos of tea and bread
and everything, and there are others going around selling
things, big shops over there, you know. Lines of shops
that open and people get up in the middle of the initiation
and go and buy something and come back and sit down
and continue. Some of them are just chit chatting and
gossiping, of course with respect, but talking, not even
listening. So its for the blessing.
Those who really sincerely listen to every teaching,
sincerely take every empowerment and then take the
commitment to practice it, then they are getting much
more than a blessing. Out of those, who do more than
that, like doing retreat, then they really receive further,
deeper teachings. If like the Kalachakra, the Kalachakra
tantra is enormous, so receiving the whole teaching of
the Kalachakra tantra and doing the retreat on the
Kalachakra sadhana. That way then it becomes more
than a blessing, it becomes a real abhisheka
(empowerment). Most people do not come for that, most
of the hundreds and thousands of people who come have
the opportunity to have a blessing. It gives some kind of
dharma connection. So it is never accepting too many
disciples. There can be ten million people receiving an
initiation, which is not too much. It is a blessing to ten
million people. And they are disciples for receiving the
initiation, thats all. Then each one of them will learn
further from their own master. Most of them might have
their own Root Guru already. They might be practising

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themselves already, just wanting to add one more blessing

to it, not necessarily taking the commitment.
Question: Will their teacher then guide them as to when
they require or are ready for further spiritual initiation or
growth? How will they recognise it in themselves, how will
the teacher recognise it in them?
Rinpoche: In our tradition, normally we go by the
very basic thing first, from the preliminary practice all the
way up. But a person may be way up here, but doing the
preliminary practice does not mean bringing the person
way down there. The person way up here will do the
preliminary practice way up here. So a persons preliminary
practice may be a totally different level of preliminary
practice, although it is the same practice.
Question: Can you please say something about the Guru
Devotion prayer that says you are the only hope and highest
and all of that?
Rinpoche: Your short cut to Buddha, your kind of
connection to Buddha. Guru devotion is very important
in all levels of Buddhism and especially in Vajrayana. But
it has to be the most genuine and most pure. Otherwise it
becomeswith my limited English vocabulary the best
way to say may be you become neurotic about your Guru.
That is not good. Genuine devotion, like when Milarepa
thought of Marpa, tears would come in his eyes. Then he
just stood there from his cave and he looked to the east
and he saw a cloud there, and he said, Under that cloud
my Guru lives. Then he saw that cloud come closer and
closer and Marpa was riding on a lion and appeared above
him. Like that, it is genuine, real. But if somebody who is
not on that level tried to be like that, then they become
neurotic. It becomes out of balance, it can become pure
emotion and can be counterproductive. So I think practice
the dharma that your Guru taught you, sincerely.
Then you should have devotion to your Guru because
of the practice that your Guru taught you and because
the Gurus devotion to his Guru. And that is the lineage.
So that way it will evolve and then natural devotion to
the Guru will arise which is not neurotic. It is not necessary
for us to try to have that kind of thing when we think we
dont have it. Because if we dont have it, then we try to
have it and our mind is quite capable of creating some
sort of climate within ourselves. This is very funny, you
know, one time I was on an airplane and a movie was
showing and some people were really crying. It was just
some sad movie, but some grown up passengers were really
crying. I couldnt believe it. You understand what I am
saying. It is just a moviesomebody wrote a script and
actresses have acted and then took a break and had
sandwiches and laughing, then they wake up and act again

and somebody is filming and

edited it. So how can you cry,
but people cried. So it can
become like that. And it is not
necessarily healthy that way.
Question: What about, they
say you should see your Guru to
be a Buddha?
Rinpoche: Yes, of course. If
you sincerely, not struggle and
make up, but if you sincerely
believe your Guru is Buddha,
then your Guru is Buddha and
Buddhas blessing flow through
your Guru. If you sincerely
think of your Guru, or believe
your Guru is a bodhisattva, then
a bodhisattvas blessing flows through your Guru. And if
you sincerely think of your Guru as a nice good person,
then a nice good persons blessing flows through. That is
sincerely. But if you try to make it up and try to force
yourself and brainwash yourself to think like that then
that is not right.
Question: Lets say our Guru actually is a Buddha but
the disciple thinks he is a bodhisattva, will the Buddhas
blessing still come?
Rinpoche: No. Even if Buddha is sitting in front of
me, if I think he is a nice fellow, a jolly good fellow, I will
only get a jolly good fellow blessing. Really, it is. So that
way devotion is very important, but genuine natural
devotion, not intellectually created devotion. I was told
by somebody that there are people you can hire to cry
when somebody dies, so it becomes like that. Then it
becomes very mixed up. So genuine devotion is very
important but genuine devotion you will not have until
you have the genuine devotion, you cannot force it.
Genuine devotion itself is a realization, is itself some level
of enlightenment. It is not something that we can create.
Question: You talked about samaya, how do you break
samaya?
Rinpoche: Samaya has many levels. But the most basic
samaya is, when you take initiation or take a teaching
then you take a samaya, I will do this. I will practice
this. And if you didnt do it, then you break the samaya
of that. You can mend the samaya by confession and
reviving your samaya. That is one thing. In tantric samaya
there are fourteen main samayas. Secondary to that are
twenty-five: each Buddha family has five samaya, so five
Buddha families, twenty-five samaya. Next to that is 700

samayas. Then next to that is each thought, so countless

samayas. So that way, tantric Vajrayana, tantra is very
deep and very profound. The word samaya is quite
directly linked with tantra. The bodhisattva vow is also
a samaya but we dont say samaya normally. The word
samaya we dont use there, but you can use it. Also there
is samaya between parents and children, samaya between
husband and wife, samaya between teacher and student,
samaya between employer and employees, you can use
this word, but actually this word is very much Vajrayana,
a tantric terminology.
When I described about how to relate to a Guru that
somehow summed up all the samayarespect, veneration
and aspiration, and practice. So if you uphold thatof
course the base of all of that is bodhichitta, because all of
the practices that we do are based on bodhichitta. If you
uphold that then you are not breaking your samaya. All
the details of samaya, if you learn them it can overwhelm
you. I think it is not necessary to learn at this stage because
once you know, then you know already.
Question: I heard, lets say that I have to say ten malas
of OM MANI PEME HUNG everyday
Rinpoche: If you say that you will say ten malas of
OM MANI PEME HUNG everyday, if you took that as
a samaya, then if you dont say it you broke that samaya.
Same student: Somebody told me that if, lets say I
didnt do it today and then the next day I realized I didnt
say it, then if say double that amount then that means I
havent broken my samaya.
Rinpoche: You can, that is how we can make ourselves
feel that, that is like a confession. That is fine. But I would
rather tell people dont take samaya of that kind lightly. It
is very easy to say when you are inspired, like our

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13

then that is the only thing to do,

undo, do undo.

gentlemen here said, when he is in the presence of me

then his thought disappears, right? So, for example, when
we are in a temple and we are receiving initiations, when
we are in a very profound environment, when everybody
is thinking positively and receiving an initiation we get
inspired very easily. So in that kind of situation we can
say all kind of things. You can think like, I am going to
go from here to Bodhgaya doing prostrations. You know,
that will be a very easy thing to come to your head and
you take that as a samaya. Then after you come out of the
shrine it is a different thing because from here to Bodhgaya,
all the road, it is dusty, all the filth and everything, then
sometimes there are cobras, how are you really going to
do it? People do it. In Tibet people do these things. Some
people go from their home to Lhasa, to Jowo Rinpoche,
or many times to Karmapa by prostration. Some of them
take several years, every day prostrating, everyday they
have to finish a few miles. Normally people prostrate and
walk a few steps but others go by one prostration body
width, not length. But only those who can do it can do it,
everybody cannot do it. Everybody can do it if they really
want to do it, but it is a strange thing, some people just
cannot do it.
So that way, when you are inspired you shouldnt get
carried away. You should realize outside is different from
inside the shrine. So you take a commitment which you
can really uphold. So instead of saying ten malas, say one
malaone mala of OM MANI PEME HUNG is not
difficult, you can sit in the car and say it or you can sit in
a park and say it. One mala goes very fast but ten malas
also is not much but you can miss that. There is a very
common saying, Dont bite off more than you can chew.
But making up like that (doubling up the next day) is a
good thing, if you have already taken the commitment

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Question: The mantras

which come to us are all old
mantras, you and the high
Lamas, cant you give us new
mantras?
Rinpoche: How can we give
new mantras? The only new
mantras that are made are Guru
mantras. That is like each Guru,
if their disciples want to do their
Guru yoga for their Guru, then
the Gurus name will be
translated into Sanskrit and
made into a mantra, only that.
Other than that you cannot
make any new mantras. All the mantras are what we have,
we have to have lineage there. But then Guru yogas have
Guru mantras. Then also when a Guru dies, when all the
disciples gather together to pray for the Guru for fortynine days, and the body kept on the altar, then they also
say prayers with the Gurus name translated into Sanskrit.
That is prayer to the Guru, but not necessarily Guru yoga.
Also if a Guru is sick and disciples want to do long life
prayers to the Guru, then the long life mantra has a space
in between where the name of a Guru can be put. So we
translate the Gurus name into Sanskrit and put it there
saying that please Buddha bless our Guru, blah, blah,
blah to live long and be healthy, like that. So we can do
that sort of thing but not new mantras.
Question: But nobody knows for example who wrote
OM MANI PEME HUNG?
Rinpoche: It is coming from sutra, it is from Buddha.
There are several, it is almost tantra but many of them are
given the name sutra, eleven face sutra, that is eleven face
Avalokiteshvara sutra.
Student: Buddha wrote it?
Rinpoche: Buddha didnt write it. Buddha never wrote
anything. This is very interesting. For a Vajrayana person,
a Tibetan Buddhist, a Vajrayana and Mahamudra
practitioner, we never say Buddha taught or Buddha said
thisof course we can say that but we never mean that.
Buddha manifests the dharma according to the capacity
of those to whom dharma manifests. Buddha is not
dualistic. If you think and say something, and because of
the motive, you are dualistic, you are not Buddha, you
are just a powerful person like a god who helps when you
are nice to him and beats you when you are not nice to
him, or who punishes you, like that. Buddha is limitless.

Therefore, we dont receive Buddhas teaching that way,

Buddha manifests.
After the Buddhas paranirvana then his disciples
gathered three timesthis is about the main stream of
Buddhas teaching. The tantric aspect is manifesting in a
very high level. It manifested to enlightened bodhisattvas
and then these teachings manifest from great bodhisattvas.
But the Abhidharma, Vinaya, Sutra, all of these teachings
were compiled during three main gatherings. During these
gatherings arhats whose realization includes something
like a photographic memory, that is a scientific term, but
we call it zung which means never forget. Zung means
everything that was heard was imprinted. So these arhats,
I think hundreds of them, came together and then what
they remembered then they put it all together and wrote
it down, that way all the teachings of the Buddha, the
Tripitaka, which is more than a hundred volumes, was
put together. Then on top of that are all the tantric
teachings, which are an enormous amount, and which
manifest from like the king of Shambhala and bodhisattvas
such as Manjushri, Vajrapani, and Avalokiteshvara. These
are the tantric aspect, not Tripitaka. Tripitaka means
Abhidharma, Vinaya and Sutra.
Question: How difficult is it to be a Guru in the Tibetan
tradition, what are the difficulties?
Rinpoche: There is a lot of responsibility. For people
like me, my biggest concern is the lineage. I am not just
wondering but am really concerned about the lineage of
dharma. The dharma is lineage and you cannot forge a
lineage, there is no way. This world is such that you have
to be like this, you have to be like that, you have to be
correct here, you have to be correct there, and you have to
look good here and you have to look good there, you
cannot be this way, and so on and so forth. So that way,
to keep the pure lineage, genuinely, is very very difficult.
I am trying my best. I think every master is trying their
best, but how much damage is being done, practically
every day to the lineage, really I dont know. That way,
from now until another twenty years, how everything will
be, it is a pretty short time and this is a very serious matter.
If the lineage is gone then the dharma is gone. Then it
only looks like dharma, only sounds like dharma, walks
like dharma, talks like dharma but is not dharma if there
is no lineage. Then everything will be just individuals
ideas and individual interpretations and individual
institutions and individual adminstrations and so on and
so forth. It will be a total disaster as far as I am concerned.
Student: Can that happen?
Rinpoche: It is happening already.
Student: But isnt that part of the design, dont we accept
that?

Rinpoche: I dont accept that. I dont want to be part

of that. I dont want to contribute to that.
Student: I understand but it could have a larger meaning
than just what we perceive it as?
Rinpoche: No. Because if Buddhas lineage is no more
here it is not Buddhism for me, it is just a look-a-like
Buddhism. I can make a Buddha statue out of gold but if
it has no relics and no mantras inside, if it is not
consecrated, then it is just an idol made out of gold. It is
not Buddha, it just looks like Buddha. So that way it
doesnt mean anything to me, it means just a big piece of
gold moulded in the shape of Buddha, that is all. It doesnt
have blessing, it doesnt have anything. It is just an
expensive thing. If the whole dharma become like that
then I would rather be a carpenter than a guru, because
then I would be a fake Guru, a Guru without lineage is
fake. I would rather do another job, be a painter, I can do
painting. I will be a painter or a photographer.
But I think if we can make it, this generation, my
generation and the next generation, then I think we have
a chance. This generation, my generation and the next
generation is a very big threshold because what is
happening in my generation, what happened in my
generation, what is going to happen in the next generation
is something that never has happened in the past. For my
fathers generation, everything was pretty much similar
for the last 10,000 or 20,000 years. My next generations
next generation, everything will be similar for maybe a
long time. But this, we call it a progressive generation, we
turn everything inside out and upside down. So I call our
generation the chaotic generation. And in this chaos the
precious lineage can be lost. Then we cannot make a new
lineage, impossible. You have to be Buddha to have a
Buddha lineage. We have to wait until the Lord Maitreya
becomes Buddha, and until that there will be no
Buddhism.
So that is most difficult part, otherwise my life is very
comfortable. Everybody is very nice to me, and all my
work, by the blessing of the Buddha, I really believe by
the blessing of Buddha, all my work, everything is going
very smoothly. I have lots of problems, tons of problems,
but none of them bother me, it is okay. I have been in
India now for five years consecutively, but I am so happy
because I saw four seasons for the first time in the same
place in almost thirty yearsfor the first time for five
years consecutively, it is beautiful. Previously I would wake
up in London, wake up in New York, wake up in
Singapore, wake up in Sydney, wake up in Amsterdam.
Sometimes I wouldnt know where I was when I woke up.
Most of the time I was travelling so much, teaching, which
of course I appreciate, it is an honour. But everything, all
of my problems are also wonderful, all my problems are

Thar Lam APRIL 2008

15

also beautiful and wonderful. So I say I am very happy

with my life.
Student: Why are your problems wonderful?
Rinpoche: Because I saw four seasons five times
consecutively and this is wonderful. If I didnt have a
problem going around, you know, so this problem is
beautiful.
Question: In life situations, if the Guru is not accessible
to give possible solutions to situations and one has to ask
somebody else, is it corrupting the lineage?
Rinpoche: No. Dharma is dharma and dharma with
lineage is dharma no matter where it comes from. A
solution for a problem is a solution for a problem, it doesnt
have to be with a lineage of dharma. You can ask anybody
for solutions to solve your regular problems. You dont
have to have a dharma master to solve your regular
problems. It does not corrupt the lineage.
Student: But the availability of the master is very low.
Rinpoche: Well maybe, maybe not. It depends. In
certain ways there are too many masters and in certain
way there are too few masters at the same time, it is true,
it is a paradox. It is true there are so many masters, so
many Gurus, we are not short of Gurus, so many. But
then of course in some ways there are too few, you know,
each person needs maybe ten Gurus, right, so that way it
is too few. But generally speaking there are lots of Gurus,
lots of Lamas, lots of masters. In Buddhism there are
Theravadan masters, Mahayana masters, Vajrayana
masters, there are a lot.
Question: If there are so many masters then why are you
so concerned about the lineage?
Rinpoche: That is also the reason. There are many
masters who arent concerned about the lineage, who dont
have concern for the lineage. This is also a very big
problem. I saw somebody somewhere, a shopkeeper, and
I saw him somewhere else wearing a robe and giving
teachings, initiations. It is a very big concern. It is not
against the law, there is nothing one can do. This is a very
serious time. Lineage is something that you cannot replace,
that is the point. Anything else we can replace, temples
we can replace, books we can replace, statues we can replace
but if the lineage is lost, how can we replace, it is
irreplaceable.
Student: But why would it be lost, it is so real, it is so
profound, it will probably just be hidden like a seed or
something, it would go inside.
Rinpoche: Yes. I believe that because I believe in the
merit of all sentient beings and the blessing of all the
Buddhas and bodhisattvas. And I am in the middle of it,
when the gentlemen asked me this thing about Gurus,

16

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APRIL 2008

that is my responsibility, and a very big responsibility. I

have no power over it. So I have to work very hard in a
very unnecessarily careful and complicated way because
of the way things work in the world today. It is very
complicated, you cannot be just like that.
Question: If I have the lineage of a text does that mean
that I am allowed to teach that text?
Rinpoche: You are allowed to teach that text when
your Guru says that you are allowed to teach that text.
And when somebody asks you to teach that text and your
Guru say you can teach that text, then yes.
Student: Then the lineage continues?
Rinpoche: If you teach purely, without contamination,
purely, yes, then the lineage continues. All of you have
the lineage of dharma, and all of you if you practice, and
if you have a certain level of capacity, the quality of Gurus
which I have described, if you develop that, then if others
want to learn from you, then you can teach. All the Gurus
came like that, all of our masters came like that, they just
didnt come down, they came up like a flower, they did
not rain like a hailstorm, but they came up like a flower
from being. Buddha Shakyamuni was Prince Siddarth,
he became Buddha Shakyamuni, up, not down.
Student: Do you have to be enlightened to teach?
Rinpoche: No, if you have to be enlightened to teach
then I cant teach. I am not Buddha, I am far away, you
have to wait two million years for me to teach you. You
have to have the lineage and you have to have the things
which I have mentioned, devotion to your Guru, and
faith and belief in the teachings and trying your best to
implement them, oneself, and knowing how to teach that
and having received the lineage of that teaching. These
things are necessary, then you can be a teacher, an ordinary
sentient being teacher, not an enlightened bodhisattva
teacher. An ordinary sentient being but a bodhisattva of
course, but not enlightened on the first level, second level,
etc., not like that.
Question: Do each of the four major sects have their
own lineage?
Rinpoche: Yes, but they are all mingled somewhere.
The four schools of Tibetan Buddhism, actually there are
eight of them, eight schools, but most people dont talk
about them because some of them are so small right now.
So they like to say four schools of Tibetan Buddhism. But
if you really trace the lineages back, then all of them are
intermingled, you cant really separate them. For example,
you say this is a coconut tree, this is a date palm and this
is another palm, they are all different palms but if you
really trace them back then the root, the source, is the
same, they just evolved in different environments over

millions of years and became

different palms, like that. So all
of the Hinayana, Mahayana,
Vajrayana, all lineages are mixed,
mingled, but what makes us
different is the administration. In
Tibet the monasteries are the
cream of society and it is a very
strong administration and that
way it is separate. Other than
that, the essence of the teachings
are the same, the lineages are all
intermingled.
For example, Tsongkhapa
received lots of teachings from
the Fourth Karmapa, and the
Kadampa came from Atisha, the
teachings we also include lots of
Kadampa teachings and in our practice is included a lot
of Nyingma, we practice lots of Guru Rinpoche. Guru
Rinpoche brought the main stream of dharma to Tibet.
So it is all intermingled, really. When it comes to real
lineage, if you trace it back, everybody is interconnected.
Student: So we can move from one to another or one
should not?
Rinpoche: Administratively not, but in faith it is there
already. Administratively there are different congregations,
each has its own background, its own traditions, its own
ways, its own sort of history. There is a huge history behind
each congregation, each school. Within each school there
are congregations who are connected with certain teachers,
and how and everything, it is enormous and complex.
Student: Does this apply to new Buddhists like us?
Rinpoche: I think new Buddhists also will haveyou
are building up, you are evolving something new, but that
will be something new itself. None of these things are
planned from the beginning, everything evolves. We will
not plan something, it just happens. Marpa did not plan
the Marpa Kagyu lineage, it just happened. The Marpa
Kagyu has four main and eight secondary schools. One
of the main schools, the Karma Kagyu, has three branches
within itself and two main seats. One is my seat, Palpung,
which has 180 monastic congregations and 13 monastic
estates that cover all of Tibet, greater Tibet, not just the
Tibet that you see on the map. What you see on a map
now is just a small part of Tibet, I think one third of Tibet
or maybe even less. I am outside of that, I am not in that
map. My monastery, my home, are all outside of that map.
Student: Like Kham, U-Tsang and Amdo?
Rinpoche: That is a strange way of saying it because,
originally, there was three huge regions in west Tibet, in
the middle four huge regions, and in the lower part six

main places, a huge area. That was during the time of the
great Tibetan kings like Songten Gampo. They made an
example, one is like a reservoir, another is like canals, and
the third is like a field. So these three things can never be
separate, all have to stay as one unit. So when we say
Kham, Amdo, U-Tsang, then that is a Mongolian
description. When Tibet was occupied by Mongolia then
they divided Tibet into three parts, which they call
cholokas. In Mongolia they have, I think, thirteen or thirty
cholokas in the time of Genghis Khan, in those days.
So they said Tibet, land wise has the mass of three
cholokas, population wise it was not enough but then the
specialties or characteristics were enough for cholokas. The
upper choloka has the origin of dharma coming from there.
The dharma came from India through U-Tsang. That is
historically very significant so they gave it a title of one
choloka. Then they said Kham has one choloka of land,
not enough population, but it has very brave people, very
good fighters and very strong men, so that way it has this
characteristic. Then the Amdo area, they say it has a land
mass of one choloka but not enough people, but they
have great horses who run on the sand and hardly leave
any footprints. The horses run on slates and hardly break
any of them, so with those kind of horses they say it has a
specialty of that, so they called it another choloka.
So the terminology of those three is coming from that.
So it is the same thing like that, that is a later title, but
the original title was from the time of King Songten
Gampo, during those days it is all one unit, that was the
original. Tibet is huge, it is very big. I think it is more
than three quarters of India.
Teaching given in New Delhi 2005 with kind thanks from Rishi
Jindal, Ani la Sherab and Rokpa Finland for recording,
transcribing, editing and offering these teachings for publication.

Thar Lam APRIL 2008

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