1

Zealot:TheLifeandTimesofJesusof
Nazareth

AnInterviewwiththeLosAngelesWorldAffairsCouncil
February5th,2014

RezaAslan
NewYorkTimesBestsellingAuthor

TerryMcCarthy:Ourspeakertonight,RezaAslan,wasborninTehranandimmigrated
totheUnitedStateswithhisfamilyafterthetakeoverofgovernmentinIranin1979by
AyatollahKhomeini.HegrewupinSanFrancisco.Hewenttothreeuniversities:Santa
Clara,wherehedidhisBA;thenHarvard;hedidhisPhDatUCSB.Hesanestablished
authorityonreligions.

Hisfirstbook,NoGodbutGod:TheOrigins,Evolution,andFutureofIslam,Ireadin
Iraq.ItwasaveryinterestinglookatbothwhereIslamcomesfromandwhereitmight
begoing.ThatshowIfirstgottoknowhiswork.Itwasaninternationalbestseller,and
lastedtenyears.Hehadalongrunforthat.

Whatsinterestingabouthislatestbook,Zealot:TheLifeandTimesofJesusof
Nazareth,isthathesoldmorecopiesinonemonththanhesoldofhisbestsellerinten
years.Apartfromthefactthatitsaverygoodbook,asthoseofyouwhovereadit
know,therewasaparticularTVinterviewwhichreallymadeit.Ithinksomeofyouhave
probablyseenthat.ItwasonFox,andthehost,LaurenGreen,conductedwhat,inmy
professionopinion,havingdonesomeinterviewsinmylife,wasundoubtedlytheworst
evertelevisedinterviewinthehistoryofAmericantelevision.Whatitdidwasitmade
hisbookrushofftheshelveslikehotcakes.

Weregoingtostartourconversationwiththesamequestionsheasked,whichis:Why
wouldaMuslimwriteabookaboutJesus?

RezaAslan:Youknow,Ivehadeightmonthstothinkofananswer,andIstillcantthink
ofone.Whatsfunnyaboutthatwholeexperienceishowquicklyitstoppedbeingabout
eithermeorthebook.Idontknowifthisisagoodthingorabadthing,butweve
becomesopolarizedasacountrythatthistenminuteTVinterviewbecameyetanother

reasonforustopicksides.WhatInoticedintheweeksfollowingthatinterviewgoing
viralishowquicklypeoplehadtopickacamp.AreyouonFoxssideorareyouon
Rezasside?Tome,steppingbackandwatchingthiswholephenomenontakeplace,
whatIfoundtrulyfascinating,andeveninspirational,isthatitlaunchedaseriesof
conversationsaboutthings,suchasjournalisticintegrity,mediabias,theroleofreligion
insociety,andwhogetstospeakforJesus.TheseareconversationsthatItendtohave
inadustylibrarywithtwootheracademics.Allofasuddenitbecameaconversation
thattheentirecountrywashaving.Itwasathrillformetohaveinadvertentlylaunched
amuchneededpublicdiscussionontheseincrediblyimportantyetheadytopics.

TM:Beforewegetintothebook,therewasaninterestingquestionthatcameupinour
studentbriefing.YouwerebornMuslim,youconvertedtoChristianitywhenyouwere
15,andthenconvertedbacktoIslamincollege.Thequestionwashowthataffected
yourthinkingandyourreligion.Youhadaquiteinterestinganswer.

RA:Isaiditdidnt.Becausemyfaithhasneverbeeninareligion;myfaithhasbeenin
God.ReligionisnothingmorethanthelanguagethatIuse.ItslikesayingthatIusedto
speakPersian,andnowIspeakEnglish.Howisthat?Imstillcommunicatingtheexact
samesentiment;Imjustusingadifferentlanguagetodoso.

IdidgrowupinIran;IgrewupinafamilythatwasamixoflukewarmMuslimsand
exuberantatheists.MymotherwasthelukewarmMuslim;myfatherwastheexuberant
atheist.ThekindofatheistthatalwayshasapocketfulofProphetMohammadjokes
thathepullsoutatinappropriatemoments.Butinasense,myfathersmilitantatheism
savedus,becauseattheendoftherevolutionwhentheAyatollahKhomeinireturned,
thoseofyouwhoremember,thefirstthingthathesaidwasthathehadnointerestin
anysortofpoliticalrole,thathewantednothingtodowithgovernment,thathejust
wantedtogobacktohisstudies.Myfathertookonelookatthatandsaid,Bullshit.

Hegotusoutofthecountryforwhathethoughtwouldjustbeaverybrieftime.He
said,Letsjustleave,andwaitforthingstosettledown.Andobviouslythatwasthree
decadesago.

WhenwecametotheUnitedStates,wewerenotaparticularlyreligiousfamily.Religion
waspartofouridentity,Isupposeinaway,butitwasntallthatseriousforus.But
then,comingtotheUnitedStates,intheearly1980s,Imnotsureifyourememberthe
1980s,butitwasnotagoodtimetobeIranianintheUnitedStates,asopposedtonow,
whenitsfantastic.Thiswasattheheightofthehostagecrisis,444daysinwhich
AmericanswerebeingheldhostageinTehran.Foraneightyearoldboy,tryinghis
hardestnottostickout,beingIranianorbeingMuslimwasthefurthestthingfrommy
mind.Infact,IadmittedfrequentlythatIspentagoodpartoftheearly1980s
pretendingtobeMexican.Letmetellyousomething.Youknowwhenyourparticular

ethniccommunityisintroublewhenyouassumeAmericanswilltreatyoubetterifyou
sayyoureMexican.Thiswasthetimes.

DespitethefactthatIdidnthaveanykindofreligiousinstructionoranykindofspiritual
edificationathome,Iwasalwaysdeeplyinterestedinreligionandspirituality.Ithinkit
partlyhadtodowiththeimagesofrevolutionaryIran;thevisceralexperienceofhow
religioncantransformasocietyforbothgoodandforbadneverleftme.AndIthinkthat
thatinasensereallycreatedthisintenseinteresttoknowaboutreligion,religious
phenomenologyandspirituality.Butofcourse,withoutanopportunitytoexperience
thatinanyway,until,asyousay,whenIwas15yearsoldandIwentwithsomefriends
toanevangelicalyouthcampinNorthernCaliforniaandheardthegospelstoryforthe
firsttime.Ihadneverheardanythinglikethisbefore.ThisstoryabouttheGodof
HeavenandEarthcomingdownintheformofababy,andgrowingupanddyingforour
sins,andthatanyonewhobelievesinhimwillalsoneverdieandhaveeternallifethis
wasthegreateststorythatIhadeverheardinmylife.Itwasatransformative
experienceforme.Iconvertedtothisveryparticularlyconservativebrandofevangelical
Christianityandspentthenextfouryearsorsopreachingthisgospeltoeveryone,
whethertheywantedtohearitornotfrankly.

WhenIwenttouniversity,IdecidedthatIwasgoingtostudytheNewTestamentfora
living.ThatwasthemomentinwhichIwasconfrontedwiththisexperience,thatIthink
franklyalotofpeopleinmysituationareconfrontedwith,whichisthissudden
realizationthatalmosteverythingIthoughtthatIknewaboutJesuswasincorrect,orat
leastincomplete;thattherewasthisincredibledistancebetweentheChristoffaith,and
theJesusofhistory.IwasjustmoredrawntotheJesusofhistory.Hebecamemorereal,
moreappealing,andmoreaccessibletome.AlthoughIdideventuallyleaveChristianity
asafaith,IcontinuedtodelvedeepintothelifeofJesustheman.Andtruly,thatsthe
resultofthisbook,twentyyearslater.

TM:Myyoungestdaughter,Eloise,isfouryearsold.Justyesterday,shemadewhatI
thoughtwasquiteanastonishingleapoflogic.Weweretalkingaboutbirthdays,and
shesaid,Daddy,youknowJesus,hehadittough,becauseheonlygotonebirthday
presentbecausehewasbornonChristmas.WhichIthoughtforafouryearoldwas
prettyimpressiveprocessing.Butitturnsoutwedontevenknowtheverybasicsof
wherehewasborn.OurideaofBethlehemmaybeisntright.Sotelluswhatwedo
knowaboutJesusandwhatwedontknow.

RA:Thisistheproblem.ThequestforthehistoricalJesus,ofcourse,isnotanew
phenomenon.IdidntinventthesearchforthehistoricalJesus.Thisisaprocessthathas
beengoingonfornearlytwocenturies,eversincetheseminalworkbyAlbert
Schweitzer,TheQuestoftheHistoricalJesus.Thiswasanattempttoseparatethe
ChristoffaithfromtheJesusofhistory.Ithinkwhatweverealizedinthelast200years

isthatwhenyoutakeawaytheNewTestament,whenyoutakeawayChristianwritings,
weknowalmostnothingabouttheJesusofhistory,exceptmaybethreethings.And
whenIusethewordknow,whatImeanbythatisthethingsthatthereisprobablythe
greatestconsensusaroundamongstBiblicalscholarsabouttheJesusofhistory.

Numberone:hewasaJew.Thissoundsobvious,butitsagoodthingtoremind
ourselvesofeveryonceinawhile.AndIwillremindyouofitprobablythreeorfour
moretimestonightbecauseitisthesinglemostimportantfacttoknowaboutJesus.
IndeedthedifferencebetweentheChristoffaithandtheJesusofhistoryispredicated
onthisonefact:thattheJesusofhistorywasaJew,preachingJudaismtootherJews.If
youkeepthatinmind,therestofthiseveningwillmakemuchmoresensetoyou.

Numbertwo:sometimeinthefirsthalfofthefirstcentury,hestartedthisJewish
movement,forJews,thepurposeofwhichwastoreestablishtheKingdomofGod.
Theresalotofdebateaboutwhatthatactuallymeans.Butthatwasthepurposeof
Jesusmovement:weareheretoestablishtheKingdomofGod.

Andnumberthree:asaresultofthatmovement,hewasexecutedasastatecriminalby
Rome.

Thatsit!ThatsallweknowaboutJesus.Indeed,becausethatsallweknow,most
scholarsnowadayswouldsaythatitsnotenough,thatthewholequestforthehistorical
Jesusisafoolserrand,andthatweshouldstoppretendingthatwecanknowanything
aboutwhoJesusthemanwas.

Idisagree.TheargumentthatImakeinthisbookisthatifthatsallyouknowabout
Jesus,itsenough.WhileweknowverylittleaboutJesustheman,weknowalmost
everythingabouttheworldinwhichhelived.FirstcenturyPalestinewasanerathatwas
verywelldocumented,thanksinlargeparttotheRomanoccupation.Whateveryou
wanttosayabouttheRomans,theywereverygoodatdocumentation.Thatandkilling
weretheirtwobigstrengthsandroadsIsuppose.Wellgivethemroads.Weknowhow
muchabushelofwheatcostinJesustime.SowhatItrytodoistotakewhatlittlewe
knowaboutJesus,planthimfirmlyintohistimeandplace,andallowtheworldinwhich
helived,andthetimeinwhichhelivedtodefinehim,tocreatehisbiography.Andthen,
wecangotothegospelsandanalyzetheclaimsofthegospelsaccordingtowhatwe
knowaboutknowaboutthehistoryofthetimetodecidewhatismorelikelyhistorical
orlesslikelyhistorical.Whenyoudothatexperiment,theJesusthatarisesisalittlebit
differentthantheJesusthatmostofusarefamiliarwith.

TM:YouextrapolatealotinthisbookaboutwhatJesusmighthavedone.Doyouhave
anyfearthatsometimesyouwentoverthelinefromsuppositionto[1stecordingcut
out15:15]

RA:EverythingweknowaboutJesusisspeculation.Everything.Thedifferenceis:isit
reasonableandeducatedspeculationornot?Iadmit,quitefreely,thatwritinga
biographyaboutJesusisnotlikewritingabiographyaboutNapoleon.Whenyoure
talkingaboutJesus,IthinkthemetaphorthatIuseisthatitsliketryingtoputagiant
puzzletogetherwhenyouonlyhavefourpieces.Andtherestofit,youjusthavetotake
yourbestguessastowhatitlookslike.Butthisisaprettygoodguess.OnethingthatI
trytodo,certainlyintheNotessection,istoquitehonestlysay,Look,therearepeople
whodisagreeandthesearetheirnamesandthisisthebook,andthisiswhythey
disagreewithmeandthisiswhyIthinktheyrewrong.

ThisargumentaboutwhoJesuswasisanoldargument,butIthinkthatwehaveaccess
tonewtoolsnowadaysthathelpustodrawwhatIthinkisafarmorehistorically
accuratepictureofthisman.Butyoureabsolutelyright,Terry.Intheend,itsjust
guessing.

TM:Whichisfine,evenifyoudontworkforFoxNews.Letsassumethatyouknow
quitealotaboutthisera,andyouveinjectedJesusintothis.Sketchoutyourpictureof
thisman.Youseehimasanexorcist?Animpresario?Butalsoassomekindofapolitical
threattoRomanruleandtothetemple.Giveusyourfingernailsketchofhowyousee
Jesusasa[2ndrecordingindistinct1:54]

RA:Thebarebones,historicalsketchofwhoJesusofNazarethwas:hewaspoor,and
whenIsaypoor,Imeanthepoorestofthepoor.Letspauseforamomenthereand
breakdownwhatwejustsaidafewmomentsago,whenwecalledhimacarpenter.And
Isaid,Welldaylaborer.ThegospelscallJesusatektonandwetranslatethatas
eithercarpenterorwoodworker.Andthatsnotanincorrecttranslation,but
unfortunatelyitimpliesthatcarpenterwassomesortofmiddleclassskill.Andindeed,
ImabigfanofJesusmovies.TheresalwaysawonderfulmomentinthoseJesusmovies
wherehesinhisworkshopbuildingachairandsomeonecomesinandhesaysOh,
heresatableforyoutopurchase.Butthatsnotwhattektonmeant.Atektonwasa
daylaborer,anartisan,someonewhowasemployedinthegeneralbuildingtrade,
someonewhowentfromvillagetovillagelookingforwork,lookingforthingstobuild.A
tektonwasntacarpenterwithhisownshop.Atektonwastheguywhostandsoutside
ofHomeDepotwaitingforatrucktoshowup.Thatswhatatektonwas.Indeed,the
Romansusedthewordtektonasacurseword,asslangforanuncouthorilliterate
peasant.AndJesuswasverylikelyboththosethings.Tektonmeantthatyouwereatthe
secondlowestlevelofthesocialladder,justabovetheslave,theindigent,andthe
beggar.Areyougettingasenseofhowpoorthismanwas?BecauseIwantto
emphasize,wearetalkingpoorestofthepoor.

HewasaGalilean,whichinandofitselfbringsupawholehostofinterestingattributes.
TheGalileanswerefarmers;theywerecountryfolk;asopposedtotheJudeans,who
werefarmorecosmopolitan,farmoreurban.Hewasfromavillage,Nazareth,which
wassosmall,soinsignificant,thatthenameitselfdoesnotappearonanymapbefore
theendofthe1stcentury.Avillageofmudandbrickhuts,avillagethatdidnthavea
road,itdidnthaveaschool,anditdidnthaveasynagogue.Itwasavillageofabout100
familiesintotal.

Hewasunquestionablyilliterate,aswasbymostscholarlyestimatessome95%ofJews
inJesustime.Thiswasprimarilyanoralsociety;theonlyJewswhocouldreadandwrite
werethePharisees,thepriests,andthescribesandJesuswasnoneofthesethings.He
hadnoeducation,exceptinsofarasbeingeducatedinhistrade.

DespitethefactthatIjustdescribedwhatnowadayswewouldrefertoasacountry
bumpkin,hehadthissortofcharisma,thissortofcleverabilitytoinnovatethereligious
teachingsthathewouldhearfromthePharisees,fromtherabbis,fromthescribesinto
somethingutterlynewandutterlyunique.Despitethispositioninhislife,hefoundeda
movementonbehalfofthepoor,themarginalized,theweak,andthedispossessed.
Peoplelikehim.Amovementthatwasseenassuchathreattothestabilityofthe
RomanEmpirethathewashunteddownlikeacriminal,arrested,tortured,and
executedforthecrimeofsedition.

Letmeunpackthatjustforoneminute,becauseIvesaidittwicenow.Iwantto
emphasizewhatImeanwhenIsayexecutedforstatescrimesorforsedition.Thats
theonlycrimethatyoucouldbecrucifiedfor.Crucifixionwasnotawillynilly
punishmentinRome.Infact,itwasntevenacapitalpunishment.Thepurposeof
crucifixionwasnttokillacriminal;thepurposeofcrucifixionwastoactasadeterrent
againstrebellion.TheonlycrimesunderRomanlawinwhichanonRomancitizen
(Romancitizenscouldntbecrucified)couldbecrucifiedwasforrebellion,insurrection,
sedition,andtreason.Now,beforeIgetthisinthequestionpart,peoplesometimeswill
say,Wait,IthoughttherewerethieveswhowerecrucifiedalongsideJesus?No,there
werent.TheGreekwordlesti,whichiswhatsusedinthegospelstorefertothetwo
gentlemen,whowerecrucifiedalongsideJesus,doesntmeanthieves,itmeans
bandit.InJesustime,banditwasthemostcommontermthatRomeusedforan
insurrectionist.Indeed,Jesusisrepeatedlycalledthebanditinthegospels.Whenyou
thinkofJesusonthecross,IdontwantyoutothinkofJesusbeingcrucifiedalongside
twothieves,Iwantyoutothinkofthreebanditsbeingcrucifiedneareachother,
becausethatstheonlythingyoucouldbecrucifiedfor.

ThatlittlebiographyofthismanIthinkisphenomenal.Itsfunny,Igetalotofcriticisms
forthisbookasyoucanimagine,buttheonecriticismthatIdontunderstandiswhen
peoplesay,Oh,butwell,bypoliticizingJesus,andbymakinghimhuman,youvetaken

awaywhatsextraordinaryandspecialabouthisstory.Idontunderstandthatatall.
ThestorythatIjusttoldyou,imagineItoldyouthatstoryaboutaguynamedFred.
WouldyounotwanttoknowFred?IwouldthinkthatFredsoundslikethemost
interestingmanintheworldandforme;thehumanityofJesusmakeshimsomuch
moreextraordinary,somuchmoreremarkable,somuchmoreworthknowing,and
indeedworthfollowing,thanthesortoftheologyaboutJesus.

TM:Iguesstheconcernofsomepeopleisthatbydemystifyingthismanyousubtract
fromthereligiosity.Icanseehowpeoplewouldsaythat.

RA:Yes,andIunderstandthat.ButIhavetoremindpeoplethat,asweweretalkingin
ourstudentsectionearlyon,thefoundationofChristianity,theabsolutecentralpillarof
ChristianityisthatJesusisbothfullyGodandfullyman.Thatheisbothofthesethings.

Now,Idontwanttotalkforthepeopleinthisroom.ButIusedtobeaChristian,andI
cantellyoufrompersonalexperiencethatIcouldneverreconcilethatidea.Igetitthat
itssupposedtobeamystery,pleasedontemailme,Igetit.ButwhatImeantosayis
this:that,forme,theGodpartofJesusidentityalwayssubsumedthemanpart.It
becameimpossibletothinkofJesusassuffering,orcold,oranxious,orscared,oranyof
thesehumanemotionsthatapersonwouldhave,becauseinthebackofmymind,I
wouldthink,Yeah,buthesGod,soThemetaphorthatIoftenuseisthatitssortof
likewatchingatightropewalkerwithanet.Whocares?Whatsthebigdeal?Sohefalls,
sowhat,theresanetunderneathhim.Theresnoreasontobeinvestedinit.WhatIm
tryingtosaywiththisbook,isthatwhateverelseyoubelieveaboutJesus,whetheryou
believehestheMessiahorthesonofGodorindeedGodincarnate,youbelievethathe
wasalsoaman.Andifthatstrulywhatyoubelieve,youhavetofacetheconsequences
ofthatbelief.Whataretheconsequencesofthatbelief?Thathelivedinaveryspecific
timeinplace,thathisteachingswereaddressedtoveryspecificsocialills,thathis
actionswerearesponsetoveryspecificpoliticalandreligiouspowersofhistime,that
hewaswhateverelsehewas,aproductofhisworld.Soifyouwanttoknowwhohe
was,overandaboveanykindoftheologicalclaimsyouhaveabouthim,youneedto
knowabouttheworldinwhichhelivedbecausethatworldshapedhim.

TM:IhaveonemorequestionandthenIwanttoopenituptotheaudience.Treating
JesusasahistoricalfigurewhocameintoJerusalemonPalmSundayashistriumphal
entry,obviouslyhisfollowersthoughtgreatthings.HerewastheMessiahwhodarrived.
Withinaweek,hesdead.Anditappearsthathesfailed.Infact,thefirstgospel,Mark,
isntwrittenforanother40years.So,whathappened?Hesnowthebiggesthistorical
creationofwesterncivilization.ExplainhowJesuswentfromafailedMessiahtothe
Christ?

RA:Itsaverygoodquestion.Firstletmesaysomethingaboutthatwholetriumphal
entry.WhatsfascinatingaboutJesusisthathehadaverybriefministry.Theministry
itselfislessthanthreeyears.AllbutfivedaysofthosethreeyearshespentinGalilee.
AndnotjustinGalilee,hespentitintiny,poor,insignificantvillagesintheGalilee.For
almostthatentirethreeyearmissionexceptforthoselastfivedays.Andthen,atone
point,forsomereason,hebasicallytellshisfollowers:letsgotoJerusalemanddie.
Thatswhathesays.

Now,apersonoffaithwouldsaythatisbecausethatwastheplanofGodofallalong.
Andthatisaperfectlygoodanswer.ButifyouwanttothinkofJesusasahumanbeing
makinghumandecisions,itsastumblingblock.TheresthismomentinwhichJesus
says,letsgodie.AndhewalksintoJerusalembeggingtheRomanstokillhim.Heenters
claimingtobetheking.Hetakespartinthisdramaticviolence,anactoftreason,inhis
cleansingofthetemple.Andalmostimmediately,hesarrested,tortured,andexecuted.
Itshardtoimaginethathethoughtanythingelsewouldhavehappened.Why?Again,
thefaithanswerisaverygoodanswer,butthehumananswer,tome,issomuch
deeper,thenotionthathetrulychosetosacrificehimselfasameansofamplifyinghis
message.Allyoucansayisthatitworked,inaway.

Butherestheproblem.Thereisthisonestumblingblock.Thatis,thatinthe1stcentury,
ifyousayyouaretheMessiahyoumeansomethingvery,veryspecific.Whatyoumean
isthatyouaredescendentofKingDavid,youareheretoreestablishDavidskingdomon
earthandtousherinthereignofGod.Jesuswasnttheonlypersonwhosaidhewasthe
Messiah.IwriteaboutanotherdozenorsoMessiahsthatsaidtheyweretheMessiah.
Manyofthemwereintheirlifetimesfarmorepopular,farmoresuccessfulthanJesus
was.Buttheyallmeantthesamething.ThetermIamtheMessiahisuniversally
understoodbytheJewsofJesustimetomeanthatyouaredescendentofKingDavid,
youareheretoreestablishDavidskingdom.IfyousayyouretheMessiah,andyoudie
withoutreestablishingtheKingdomofDavid,guesswhat?YourenottheMessiah.Its
assimpleasthat.Andindeed,alltheotherMessiahswhomadethatclaimandwere
killedbyRomewereconsideredfailedMessiahs.TheyarenolongertheMessiah;their
disciples(thosewhosurvived)simplyjustwenthome.ButJesusdisciplesdidnot.They
stuckaround.Buoyedbythisecstaticexperienceofhimasrisenagain,andyoucan
definethathoweveryouwanttodefinethat,thefactofthematteristhatthe
resurrectionisbydefinitionanahistoricalphenomenon.Ahistorianhasnobusiness
talkingabouttheresurrection.Butwhatisanundeniablefact,isthatvery,verysoon
afterJesusdeath,withinadecade,beliefinhimasrisenfromthedeadwasthe
foundationofthisnewmovement.Itwasaveryearlybelief.Andthatsafact.Andthen
youcangoaheadanddefinethathoweveryouwanttodefineit.Buoyedbythat
experience,bythatbelief,thesedisciplesdecidednottoabandonthecause.Confronted
withthisuncomfortablefactthatbythedefinitionofMessiah,JesuswastheMessiah,
theysimplychangedthedefinitionandmadetheMessiahsomethingelse.Theymade

theMessiahaspiritualfigure,notanearthlyfigure.TheymadetheMessiahskingdoma
heavenlykingdom,notanearthlykingdom.TheydeJudifiedtheveryconcept.Indoing
so,theyhadaverydifficulttimepreachingthisnewmessagetootherJews.Whatevery
historianofearlyChristianityagreesaboutishowunpopularthismovementwasafter
JesusdeathamongJews,certainlyamongsocalledPalestinianJewsasopposedtothe
JewsintheDiaspora.ButitwasntthatunpopularamongnonJews.Greeks,Romans,
Syrians,Arabs;thesegroupshadamucheasiertimeacceptingthisnotionbecausethey
didnthaveanybaggage,anythingtodefineitby.

Andso,within40years,bythetimethefirstgospeliswritten,thefirstgospelofMark,
thisisnolongeraJewishmovement.ItisnowunquestionablyaRomanmovement.Its
forRomans;theydontevenbotherpreachingittoJewsanymore.Thegospelsarenot
forJews;thegospelsarewritingaboutaJew,buttheyarenotforJews.Theyrewritten
inGreek,notinHebrew,notinAramaic!Ifanyoneinthisroomwhohasreadthe
gospelshasnoticed,overandoveragainthegospelsconstantlyexplainJewishthings.
Whyaretheyexplainingthis?WhyaretheytellingusthatitscustomamongtheJews
thateightdayslatertheygotothetempleandtheynametheirchild?Thatsbecause
thisisnotmeantforJews,thatswhy!Weretalking40years,fourdecades,andthisis
nolongeraJewishmovement.Andnow,whatweunderstandtobeChristianitystartsto
arise.

TM:Letsgetsomequestionsfromtheaudience.

Audience:DidyoureadtheotherbookaboutthehistoricalJesus,OReillysbookKilling
Jesus,whichisfrequentlytoutedasthenumberoneNewYorkTimesbestseller,and
whatdidyouthinkaboutit?

RA:Yes,KillingJesus,whichapparentlyisnotamanual.IhavenotreadBillOReillys
booksoIcantreallytalkaboutitinanysortofintelligentway.Iwillsaythatthemain
differencebetweenmybookonJesusandBillOReillysbookonJesusisthatIwrotemy
book.

Ihavefriendswhohavereadit,andIvereadreviewsofit.Iunderstandbasicallyhes
turnedJesusintoamemberoftheTeaParty.Becauseitsallabouttaxesasfarashes
concerned.ThatJesuswasupsetaboutthehighcostoftaxes,whichactuallyistrue,and
governmentinterferenceandthatswhyherebelledandthatswhyhewaskilled.Thats
fine.Iwillsaythisthough.WhatfascinatesmeisthewaythatthepoliticalRightinthis
countryhasabsorbedJesusandmadeJesustheirownicon.TheJesusofhistoryisa
MiddleEasternJewwhoadvocatedforfreehealthcareandfedthepoor.Thatsthe
nightmareofBillOReilly!ThatstheexactoppositeofeverythingBillOReillythinks.

10

Audience:Asidefromthegospels,Matthew,Mark,Luke,andJohn,andofcoursethe
writingsofSt.Paul,theletters,theepistlesandallthat,didyourefertothescrollsof
ChenoboskionandNagHamatiandofcoursealltheothergospelsthatwereafloat?
Howmuchdidyoulooktothemwhenresearching?

RA:Asmanyofyouprobablyknow,wearefamiliarwiththefourcanonizedgospels,
Matthew,Mark,Luke,andJohn,butweknowthatthereweredozensanddozensof
othergospels.Wenowhavecopiesofthemthankstoafindin1945,inavillagein
UpperEgyptcalledNagHamati,wenowhaveaccesstoanentirecanonofextra
canonicalgospelsincludingthegospelofPhilipandthegospelofThomas,thegospelof
MaryMagdalene,etc.ThesearesometimesreferredtoastheGnosticGospels,and
someofthemareGnostic,butthatsastrangetermtousefortheentirelibrary.Many
ofthesegospelswerewritteninthe2ndand3rdcenturieswiththepossibleexceptionof
thegospelofThomas.TheresreasontobelievethatthegospelofThomasisavery
earlyone.

Letsputthingsinperspectiveforamoment.WealreadysaidthegospelofMarkwas
writtensometimearound70A.D.,soJesuswasbornaround4B.C.Hediessometimein
theearly30s.Paulstartswritingintheearly50s,sothefirstpersontoeverwriteabout
JesusisPaul,butthatsproblematicbecauseoftworeasons.One,becausePaulnever
metJesus,neverknewJesus,neverspoketoJesus.Two,becausePaulneveractually
saysanythingaboutJesus.PaulneverquotesJesus;heneversaysanythingthatJesus
did,exceptofcoursefortheLastSupper,theCrucifixion,andtheResurrection,but
thosearecreedalformulasforPaul,theyrenothistoricalevents.Paulhasnointerestin
thehistoricalJesus;hisinterestisinthecelestialChrist.

Thefirstgospel,thegospelofMarkiswrittenaround70or71.ThegospelsofMatthew
andLukearewrittenalmostsimultaneouslysometimebetween90and100,
unbeknownsttoeachother,butaroundthesametime.AndthenthegospelofJohnis
writtensometimebetween100and120A.D.Iwouldsaythemostcommondatingfor
thegospelofThomasisbetween120and150A.D.Thatsprettyclose.

Therestofthemhoweverarewritteninthelater2ndand3rdcenturies.Theyprovidean
incredibleinsightintotheenormousdiversityofChristianity.Whenwereadtheseother
gospels,whatwerealizeisthatthereisnosuchthingasChristianity.Thereweremaybe
twoorthreedozenChristianities.Thereweredozensofdifferentwaysinwhichpeople
thoughtofJesusandwhohewasandwhathedid.Ofcourse,inthe4thcenturywhen
RomebecomesChristian,andnowitstimetocreateacanon,andoneOrthodoxversion
ofChristianity,alloftheseotherChristianitiesbecomeoutlawedandtheirtextsareall
destroyed.Thankgod,somemonkinthe4thcenturyhadthewherewithaltocollectall
oftheseandshovetheminacaveforustofind1,500to1,600yearslater.Theseare
enormouslyinteresting;theyareenormouslyhelpfulintellingusaboutChristianity.

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TheydonttellusanythingaboutthehistoricalJesus,becausetheyare200years
removedfromthehistoricalJesus.Tobeperfectlyfrank,neitherdoesthegospelof
John.IdontusethegospelofJohn.ThevastmajorityofJesusscholarsignoreJohn
becauseitsjusttoolate.Really,tobehonest,manyofthemalsoignoreMatthewand
Luke.ThereisastrainwithinMatthewandLukecalledQ(itsalongstory)thatpeople
use,butreally,whatwerelyonmostlyisMark,thefirstgospelbecauseitstheearliest
gospel.Doesthatnecessarilymakeitmorehistoricallyaccurate?No!Butwehaveto
createsomelimits,wehavetothinkofsomethingthatwouldmakeusmorerelianton
something,andthebestthingthatwecanthinkofisearliest.Earliestgetsmostweight.

Audience:CouldyoutalkaboutJesustheexorcist?

RA:Webroughtthatupandwejustdroppedit,didntwe?Itsreallyinteresting,and
hardforthemodernmindtowrapitselfaround.WehavemoreevidenceofJesusasa
miracleworker/exorcistthanwehaveevidenceofanythingelseabouthim,includinghis
birthanddeath.LetmeemphasizewhatImeanhere.Idontmeantosaythatwehave
evidenceofJesusmiracles;wedonthaveevidenceofhisindividualmiracles.WhatI
meantosayisthattheonethingthateverybodyagreedupon,hisdetractorsandhis
followers,hisenemiesandhisfriends,theearlyChristiancommunityandthepaganand
Jewishapologiststhatwroteagainstit:theonethingthateverybodytakesforgrantedis
thathewasanexorcistandamiracleworker.Nooneeverdoubtsthat,nooneever
questionsit.ThepeoplewhowroteagainstJesusdidntsayOh,hewasacharlatan.
Theysaidhewasanexorcistandamiracleworker,buthewasntGod.

ThereasonforthisisthatJesuslivedinaworldthatwassteepedinmagicandmiracle.
Hecertainlywasnttheonlytravelingexorcist.Infact,onethingthatsreallyinteresting
isthatthisisalandthatwasteamingwithtravelingmiracleworkersandexorcists.
Indeed,itwasaprettywellpaidposition.Itwasanactualprofession,itwasyourjob:
thisguysatekton,thisguysanexorcist.Theseguyswouldwalkfromvillagetovillage.
BearinmindthatinJesustimeillnesswasunderstoodasamanifestationofdemon
possession.Ifyouresick,youresickbecauseyouhaveademon.Whetherthatcauses
leprosy,orblindness,orepilepsy,itsallthesame.Thesetwowerefluidcategories.But
thiswasawellpaidprofession!Peoplewalkedaroundmakingaverygoodlivinghealing
peopleandexorcisingdemonsoutofpeople.Thatsnotwhatisinterestingorunique
aboutJesus;inourminditis,inourmindwhatmakesJesusuniqueisthathedidthese
miracles.Notreally,therewerealotofpeoplewalkingaround,weknowtheirnames,
andsomeofthemwerewaymorefamousthanJesus.

WhatsetJesusapartfromtherestwasthathewasdoingitforfree.Thiswas
unprecedentedtheideathatyouwerejustgivingthesethingsout!Letmeexplain
whatImean.Thoseofyoufamiliarwiththegospelstoriesknowwhathappens.Every
timeJesusgoesintoacityoratown,thismassofpoor,sickpeoplecomeuptohimto

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gethealed.Wethink,fromourvantagepoint2,000yearslater,thatthismassofpoor,
sickpeoplewerecomingtohimtogethealedbecausetheyweresick.No,no,no.They
werecomingtohimtogethealedbecausetheywerepoor!Andtheycouldntaffordto
behealedbytheexorcistwhocharged.ThatswhatsetJesusapart.Infact,hesays
repeatedlyinthegospels,andheactuallycommandshisdisciplesthiswaytoo,hesays
thisisagiftthatGodhasgiventoyousoyougiveitoutforfree.Andthatwasunheard
of,thefactthatJesuswasjustgivingthisout.Whatsevenmoreinterestingisthatthere
wasamessagebehindit.ThatitwasntjustthatJesuswassaying,Hey,heresafree
exorcism!WhathewassayingwasthatthisfreeexorcismisasignoftheKingdomof
God.Inotherwords,thisnewworldorderthatJesuswasenvisioning,thathewas
preaching,thathereferredtoastheKingdomofGod,thatthisneworderwasonein
whichhealingwasfree.Inwhichbeingliberatedfromdemonswasfree,thatyoudont
havetopayforthosekindsofthings.Thatwasabsolutelyrevolutionaryinhistime.

Audience:Youvetouchedonalotofit,butIdontunderstandhowthereligious
communitybelievesthatJesusdidallthethings,likeraisingsomeonefromthedead.Its
inthegospels,andIdontseethatbecauseitsinthegospelsthatitmeansitstrue.It
maynotbe.Probablynot.ThemiraclesthatsetJesusapartandprobablygavehim
certainpowerwerethingsthatnooneelsehasbeenabletodo.Andeventhoughthere
aresomepeoplewhohavebeenwrittenabout,whohavedonemiracles,byandlarge
theywerentasacceptedasthoseofJesus.Sodidheactuallydothosemiracles?

RA:Well,seeagain,thatsnotthequestionthatahistorianisallowedtoanswer.Thatis
aquestionoffaith.Whatahistoriancantellyouisthatthiswastheclaim.Thathe
wasnttheonlyonedoingthesethings.Andbytheway,therearestillpeoplewalking
aroundintentrevivals,healingpeopleandmakingthemwalkandallthatstuff.Youcan
watchitlateatnightonTVifyouwantto.Idontknowhowtodescribethecontextofa
worldinwhichmagicandmiracleareapartofeverydaylife.Thatsjusttheworldin
whichJesuslived.ApersonoffaithwouldsaythatistheprovidenceofGod,thatthatis
thehandofGodatwork.Apersonwithoutfaithwouldsaythisismasspsychosis,that
itsjustacommunalplaceboeffectthatwasbeingseen.Ithinkbothofthosearepretty
goodanswers,Idontknowwhichoneisright.IbelieveinGod,soobviouslyImopento
someprettycrazyandabsurdpossibilities.

ButIwillsaythis:thattoyourearlierquestion:Ithinkthebestskillthatwecanlearnis
howtoreadthegospels.Wecomefromaworldinthe21stcenturyinwhichweassume
thatBiblicalliteralism,thenotionthattheBibleisliteralandinerrant,isjustsortofan
inherentpartofbeliefintheBible.Itisnt.TheconceptofBiblicalliteralisminthe2,000
yearhistoryoftheNewTestamentisalittlemorethan100yearsold.Letmejustsay
thatonemoretime:inthe2,000yearhistoryinwhichthegospelshaveexisted,theidea
thatwhatyouarereadinginMatthew,Mark,Luke,andJohnisliteralandinerrantisa
littlemorethan100yearsold.Itwastheresultofaveryinterestingmovement,a

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backlashtoChristianliberalismandtheScientificRevolutionattheendofthe19th
centurybyagroupofAmericanProtestantswhobeganamovementthatwaslaunched
byaseriesoftracksthatwerewrittencalledTheFundamentalsandthatiswherewe
getthetermfundamentalismfrom.Itsaverynewphenomenon.Thatsnothow
Christianshavehistoricallyreadthegospels.ItscertainlynothowtheChurchfathers
whocollectedthegospelsreadthem,anditsabsolutelynothowthegospelwriters
themselvesintendedthemtoberead.Igothroughgreatlengthsinthebooktoexplain
whatImeanbythat.

Illputitinthesimplestwaypossible:thegospelsareabsolutelyrepletewithhistorical
errorsandwithcontradictions.ThegospelofMatthewsaysthatJesuswasbornin4B.C.
ThegospelofLukesaysJesuswasbornin6A.D.Thatstenyearsdifference!Whichone
wasright?Now,letmeaskyouamuchmoreimportantquestionthanwhichoneis
right:doyouthinkthattheChurchfatherswhointhe4thcenturydecidedtoputboth
MatthewandLukeinthecanonizedNewTestamentdidntbothertoreadthemfirst?
TheydidntnoticethattheyhavedifferentdatesforJesusbirth?Theydidntnoticethat
thegospelofJohnabsolutelycontradictstheentiretimelineofMatthew,Mark,and
Luke?TheydidntnoticethattherearetwocompletelydifferentgenealogiesforJesusin
MatthewandLuke?Ofcoursetheydid!Theydidntcare,becauseatnopointdidthey
everthinkthatwhattheywerereadingwasliterallytrue!Theywouldnotevenknow
whatyoumeanwhenyouusethewordhistory.Thewordhistoryasdefinedasan
accumulationofempiricallyverifiablefactsandeventsiswhollyaproductofthe
modernworld.Thatdefinitionofhistory,thateveryoneinthisroomshares,isbarely
300yearsold.Fortheancientmind,historyhadverylittletodowithfacts.Ithad
everythingtodowithtruth,whichwe,asproductsoftheScientificRevolution,thinkare
thesametime.Wethinkthattruthandfactmeanthesamething.Indeed,sciencetells
us,thatwhichistrueisthatwhichcanbefactuallyverified.Butthatsnotwhatthe
ancientmindthought.TheywerenotasinterestedinthefactsofJesuslifeastheywere
inthetruthrevealedbyJesuslife.WhentheyconstructedthesestoriesaboutJesus,
andImeanthatquiteliterally,theyconstructedthesestories.Ifyouaskedthem,Did
thisreallyhappen?theywouldntevenunderstandthequestion!Whatdoyoumean
didthisreallyhappen?Youremissingthepoint!ThepointisntArethesefactstrue?
thepointis:whatdoesthisstoryrevealaboutthenatureofwhoJesusis.Itsan
incrediblydifficultthingforustounderstand,butitisthekeytounderstandinghowto
readtheNewTestament,howtoreadthegospels,andindeedhowtoreadallscriptures
insacredhistories.

TM:WehaveaBishopfromtheGreekOrthodoxChurch,hegetsthelastquestion.

Audience:Whywouldyou,Dr.Aslan,beginbysayingweknowsoverylittleabout
Jesus?WeknowhewasJewish,weknowthathewasarrestedbytheRomans,weknow
thathewaskilledbytheRomansforseditionortreason,thatsallandthenyouspent

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thelasthourtellingusaboutJesusbasedonthegospelnarratives.ItslikeOReillys
book,becauseyoupoliticizedit,youdidthesamething.Yousaidthisisnotatheological
thing,andthenifyoulookatitheonlypickedandchosethosethingsthatmadehis
point.Andwithallduerespect,Ithinkyoudidthesamething.Whywouldyou,for
example,saythatscholarsonlyusethegospelofMarkasawaytoseethetruthwhen
MarkneverknewJesus,heneverexperiencedJesus,hewasadiscipleandassociateof
Paultwentyyearslater,andhehascredibilityandhewasnotevenoneoftheapostles.
Markisanevangelist,buthewasnotMatthew,Luke,andJohn,whowereactual
apostlesofJesus.Whydidyoucometothiswithapreexistentagenda?WhichIthink
someofushavesniffedoutwithsomeofyourpoliticalthingsaboutfreehealthcare
whichIthinkisinappropriateforaseriousscholarlikeyoutobringintoaconnection
withJesusbelievinginfreehealthcareandfeedingthepoorandallthattakingitoutof
contextbecausehealsosaidthepoor:youshouldalwayshavewithyou,youwillnot
alwayshaveme.Thissocialjusticething,youretakingthingsoutofcontext.Ilook
forwardtoreadingabookbyyouaboutMohammed.Godblessyou.

RA:IdidwriteabookaboutthehistoricalMohammed.Itwasamassivebestseller,
thankyouanditsforsaleoutside.Thosearevery,verygoodquestionsandIdowantto
answerthem.Firstofall,thisgoesbacktowherewestarted.EverythingaboutJesus
exceptforthosethreethingsisspeculation.Everythingabouthim.Butthereare
speculationsabouthimthataremorebasedoncontext,andresearch,andthehistory,
andtherearespeculationsthatarelessso.AndIthinkthatsaveryimportantthingto
talkabout.EverythingthatIvesaidaboutJesusarethebestguessthatwecanhave
abouthimbasedlessonanythingthatweknowaboutJesus,becauseweknowvery
littleaboutJesus,butmoreaboutwhatweknowabouttheworldinwhichinlived.So,
forinstance,ifheis,asIsaid,aNazarene,ifheisatekton,ifheiscrucified,thosethings
meansomethingwhenputintothecontextofhistimeandplace.Nowthisissueof
pickingandchoosingisacriticismthatIhearalot.Andtoperfectlyfrank,theresquite
anenormousdifferencebetweenBillOReillyandme:Iactuallyhavespentagoodmany
decadesstudyingthisstuff,andBillOReillyisajournalist.Thisisaveryimportantthing:
IamnotpickingandchoosingthingsthatIlikefromthegospels.Iunderstandhow
someonenotsteepedinscripturalactsofJesuswouldthinkthatwellwhyareyou
ignoringthisverseandacceptingthisverse?Thetruthofthematteristhat200yearsof
scripturalactsofJesusandthequestforthehistoricalJesushascreatedthe
methodologicaltoolsnecessaryforus,asscholars,tohaveaprettygoodsenseofwhat
inthegospelscanberelieduponasmorehistoricallyaccurateandwhatcannotbe.
Now,thosemethodologicaltoolsarelongcomplex,Icantellyouabunchofthem,for
instance,oneofthetoolsthatweuseiscalledmultipleattestations.So,forinstance,if
aneventorastoryoraquoteofJesusisfoundinallgospels,itismorelikelytobe
historicallyaccuratethanifitsfoundinonlyonegospel.Ontheflipsideofthat,if
somethingthatJesussaysordoestendstostandoutlikeasorethumb,tendstoactually

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beincontradictiontotherestofthegospel,itsmorelikelytobehistoricallyaccurate
thannot.Thereareawholehostoftools,asIsay,thatscholarsuse.

Nowthesetoolshavebeendevelopedoverthelasttwocenturiesandwhattheyve
created(theyquitefamouslycametoapinnacleinsomethingcalledtheJesusSeminar
thiswasanattemptinthe1970sand1980stobringallBiblicalscholarstogetherand
comeupwithacolorcodedversionofthegospelsthatindicatedtheconsensusonwhat
ismostlikelysomethingthatshistoricalallthewaytoleastlikelyhistorical).Now,that
isnottosaythatthereisnotstilldisagreement.Thereis,thereisstillagreatdealof
disagreementonparticularversesorparticularissues.But,forthemostpartthereisa
senseofunanimityamongscholarsabout,attheveryleast,themethodologythatsin
placetodecidewhatwecanrelyuponandwhatwecant.Oneofthosekey
methodologicalmeansistiming.SoasIsaidbefore,thegospelofJohn,whichhasa
completelydifferentchronologythattheSynoptics,whichwaswrittenway,waybefore
John.ThegospelofJohnbeginswithaclearandpresentstatementthatwhatyouare
readinghasnothingtodowithJesus:Inthebeginningwasthewordandthewordwas
withGodandGodwastheword.This,rightaway,fromVerse1,youknowthatJohnis
talkingaboutsomethingelseentire.TheSynopticsnevercallJesusGod.OnlyinJohn
doesJesussaythatIamtheFather,IamGod.Sobythetimeyougettothat,asa
scholar,youknowthatthisisstuffthatIcanttakeveryseriously.

Whatwedo,primarily,isweuseMark,whichyouareabsolutelyrightFather,isalsonot
averyreliabletextbecauseitisnotaneyewitnessaccountofJesusactions,words,and
deeds;itisatheologicalstatementoffaith.Inotherwords,whatImeantosayisthat
thegospelsarenothistoricaldocuments,theyaretheologicalarguments.Thegospel
writersalreadybelievedsomethingaboutJesusandtheywrotetheirgospelstoprove
thatbelief,nottolayoutthethingsthatJesussaidordid,buttomakeanargument
aboutwhohewas.Andtoyourpoint,bytheway,nobodywhoeverwroteasingleword
aboutJesusthatwehave,evermethim.Nobody.Paulnevermethim;Marknevermet
him;MatthewwasnotwrittenbyMatthew,itwaswrittenbyMatthewscommunity;
JohnwasnotwrittenbyJohn,itwaswrittenbyJohnscommunity.Theapostles,like
Jesus,wereilliteratepeasants.Theycouldnotreadorwriteandtheywerelongdeadby
thetimethegospelswerewritten.Thatsanotherthingthatwehavetorememberas
scholarsthatthesearedocumentsoffaiththeyretheologicalargumentswrittenby
peoplewhonevermetJesus.ThisisthesecondgenerationofChristians,butwecanstill
usethem.Thatdoesntmeanthattheyareuseless;thatweshouldtossthemasidewe
canstillusethem.Wecanstillgothroughthemandteaseoutlittlebitsofhistory,butto
dothatwehavetoconstantlyanalyzethoseclaimsaccordingtowhatweknowofthe
historyofthetime.

ForinstancewhenthegospelofLukesaysthatintheyear6A.D.thegovernorofSyria,
Quirinius,decidedtolaunceacensusoftheentireRomanEmpireandthiscensusforced

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allsubjectpeoplestouprootthemselvesfromthecitiesinwhichtheylivedandtravelto
theofthecitiesoftheirforefathers,thecitiesoftheirfathersbirthinordertobe
countedandJesus,therefore,JesusfamilyleftNazarethandwenttoBethlehem,where
Josephisfrom,andastheywerewaitingtobecounted,MarygavebirthtoJesus.Well
weknowthatthatisjustnottrue,itsjustabsolutelyfalse.Weknoweverythingthereis
toknowaboutRomantaxationlaw.Asyoucanimagine,theRomanswereprettygood
aboutwritingthosethingsdownwhenitcomestotaxes.Weknowforafactthatyes,
therewasacensusintheyear6A.D.butitwasntoftheentireromanworld,infactit
wasntevenofGalileeitwasjustofJudea,Perea,andIdumeasoitwouldnthavehad
anythingtodowithJesusatallanditanycaseineverydocumenteverwrittenabout
Romantaxationlawthereisnomentioneverofthisabsurdideathateveryonceina
whileeverysubjectcitizenofthelargestempiretheworldhadeverknownwouldhave
touproothimselfandhisfamilytravelgreatdistancestoanothercityanwaitforweeks
toaRomanofficialtocounthimandhispropertywhichwouldveleftbackintheplace
ofhishomeanyway.ImeanthatwouldvebroughttheentireRomaneconomytoa
collapse,itneverhappened.So,wecansaythisisnothistoricallyaccurate.Itisnot
historicallyaccuratebecauseweknowaboutthehistoryofthetimeandthisdoesntfit.

Sothereisawaytodothisthereisawaytoteasehistoricalinformationfromthe
gospelsbutitbeginswithanacknowledgementthatthegospelsarenothistory,they
arenotabiographyofJesus,theyarenotevenaboutJesus;theyareabouttheChrist.
TheyareanargumentmadebypeoplewhoalreadybelievethatJesuswasGod,about
whyhewasGod.TheyareaboutwhoJesuswas,notwhatJesusdid.