PALESTINE ROYAL COMMISSION Notes of Evidence taken on Thursday, 7th January, 1937 FORTY-NINTH MEETING (Public) Present ‘The Rt. Hon, Ear, Pes, G.C. The Rt. Hon. Sir Honack Gxoxok Moxrastr Romwory, Bt, G.C.B., G.CMLG., MLV.O. (Vice- Chairman). : Sir, Bosexr Lacrm Lucas Hawes, K.CS.L. CBE. 1 GBE. (Chairman) ‘Sit Wrexriae Mornis Carrer, C.B.E. Sir Fagot Morris, M.B.E., WC. Professor Recixarn Conran, CLR, Me, J. M, Manne (Secretary) Im Attendance: Mz. L. ¥. Axons ews, OBE. Mr. D. G. Hrarnconr-Aucny. Witness Me, D, Bex-Gurs0x, Chairman of the Executive of the Jewish Agency. 4527. Chairman: You have sent us in a précis of ‘the points upon which you wish to address ws, The fist one is the attitude of Zionism towards the ‘Arabs? —Yea fa5z8, And you have pt under that the moaning cof the Jewish Home. Would yoo liko to make your ‘latement on thooo lines?—When T receive the in. Sitation to give evidence T was rather embacrassod. Tisnow Thad very litle to add to tho comprehensive idence given by the representatives of the Jewich ‘Agency, expecially Dr. Weizmann, therefore 1 want 40" init ‘myself toa fow fundamental questions Which have arisen during this enquiry. "A. geest ‘Seal was heasd about the benefit whicl had accrved ‘to this country fom jewish work, the improvement of sgricultare in. Palestine, ‘the provision of more ‘york, better sanitary conditions, better education and go on, Tt is not the virtne of the Jews that brought this about and roagit beneficto"te coun. ‘ty, but it is iohereat in our work. Our aim cannot ‘be accomplished in Palestine without a exeative con- structive wor in agriculture, industry. education, ete. The welfare of the whole country is our deep concern for moral, economic and political grounds. But T want 0 remove a possible misunderstanding which may arise in Such a discussion. The benefit Thich Je accruing to the country from our work is Zot the reason and the justifeation of our being here dnd of the Jewish National Howe. | We are here in four own sight. We cogard the. Jewish National Home as an ead in itsele Wo claim to bo here and to assure our future hore becauso it is our own Tight and it is jusifod in itoelf, whother it benefits cthers oF not. ‘asso. When you say. whether it benefits others, do"you sean whether it benefits the other side? Eis nob in order to benefit others. I say that itis a fact that Gt must beneSt others, because it is @ creative work wasio. You say it must?—Yoo, in ite mature. it rust benefit he wholo coantry, otherwise we cam not be here. “isat- Sit Horace Rumbotd: But the benefits con- fazed on the other race aro incidontal to the estab- lishment of the Homo? Yes, if is not the main pparpose and our work is in isolé sts own justice toa. “i532. Sir Lawrie Hammond: 1 underetand Me, BaaGarion to say they are not here as philanthro- pists: but as of nght?—Vee,” Tt is aa ond in itselt Ena we regard ourselves, the Jowish peoplo, es fntitled 10 live and to be free for our own sakes Gur aight in Palestino ie aot derived fromthe Mandate and the Balfour Declaration. It is prior t hat Lalis was aid by Ae Ci of the joyal Cotasision, oF perhaps one of his colleagues, that the Mandate’ our Bible. sit tia, Sai: Dil cer bo oo fan at "may be. it was one of your calledgucs. We should be glad to boar you say it; but I say on ischalf of the Jews that the Bible is our Mandate, {ho Bible which ‘was written by ue, in our own language, im Hebrew, inthis very counicy. That is cur Mandate, Out right ie as old as the Jowish people. Tt was only the recognition of thil night Jehich waa expressed ia the Balfous Declaration ald the Mandste, ‘It is stated in the Mandate that it Tecogaises the right of the Jewish people 0 re Constitute their National Home. 4534. Professor Coupland: Inthe preamble? — nthe preamble. “Tt'is not anew thing. Te i hot the ectablishment of a new historical fat 4535. Chatman: You think Wis, In fact, stated mare clearly inthe Bible than in the Mandate! — Taay its more strong and it was recognised. in the Mandate that our night was not erent i 1017 or igee, Tt was recognised that we had a historical coanection ‘with Palestine and there are also other grounds ‘or reconstituting and re-stablishing. our National Home and not merely establishing a sew fing, only re-establishing a thing which we had, Which we lisld and whic was our own during the ‘whole lisory-of the Jewish people. 4536. Si? Horace Rumbold- The sight derived trom the Bible, would ‘not that take you aa far as the seconstitntion of the Jewish National Stats? rival come to that Tater, Tam nots lawyer ana "T de not wish to speak in logel toma.” frill speak in terms of commonsense and of history. Tsay’ we are here as of might and 1 believe all those poeple, firt of all the ‘Bridsh_ people. and then offer Buropean nations aad the United States of Ametia, which endorsed the action of Great Bcitain, br them too, the Jewish National Home wwas an end in itself "Te wan aot in order that the Jews should beneht alestine, but it was to solve he Jewth problem. It was to remove a grievance, 2 historia! grievance of the Jewish peaple against ‘he whoe Christian ‘world “for-maay” centuries ‘ier were atempta very, worthy and sincere attempt, by civilised people during the last century to emowe the grievance of the Jewish people, their penecutions and thelr sulfeings, by ving hem Equal righis ia England and Prance and other Enuntsid: but it proved to be no solution, becouse Pda not take away the voot of our troubles and tho root ls that we are In every county’ a minority Bthe mercy of the majority. This majodty mey ' tMINUTES’ OF EVIDENCE 7 January, 1937 Mz, D, Bex-Gunion [Continusa. treat us vightly and fairy, os im England and in France, and i may be otherwise, a2 in Commaay, Dut we are always at the mercy of otbers. 4537, T do not want to inteormpt you, but thie hat ati boon “lly tated by DE Wottmannd I Sai ‘at tho ‘beginning T eid’ not want to repeat ‘hat he si, bat Tonly wish to take clear this Dolnt that wo are here of our own might and for Surselves, althoogh we are Denefiting’the county. We do not intent to create ia Paletine the sane infolerable poston forthe Jews asin all other Countries, Hea rafal cng or te Josh peorle oiberwise there is no ‘need for a. National Frome. “It is not to give the Jews eal righis inact, 1 i chauge th potion as 3 people. want to say onc word on why we are Fess in Palestine. “Ye “ls not because ee ‘once Conguered Palestine. Many yeople bave conquers a couatry and lost i and they have ao cain that Sountey, bat here wer are for two reasous apres Sedsatod im history” The ext ie this Palestine is ‘to only country im the would that the Jews, mot ce individals ut ‘a nation, ae rece, can regard 2 their own conméry, as their historic homeland dnd the second reason fs there ino ctace nation T'do ect say population, T do not say sections of 2 people thofe ia no other rach or nation as a Whole which. segardn thie county” ac. their only homeland. All“the inhabitane of Talootino ase Shien of this country and Have fll rights this country, not only as eatizeos but an cildcen Of this homeland, but they awe fn their capacity as inhabitants of this comry. We have it sr Jews, 85 childron ‘of the. Jewish People, whether we are here ally or whether we are not here yet. "When {he Balfour Declaration was made there wero Go,o00 Jews here. Te was not only) the ght. of those So,000. Now we are 400,000 and fe is a0¢ only the Fight of thes yoo.000 "Tr is becamse we are the Shildon of the Jewish people and it is the only homeland of the Jewish people that we have righ’ in ths country.” Wo are retaming to Palestine and wre gladly and without qualification admit one, very ential nit anda mst is the rights of the Ishabitants of Palestine not to. "be injured Nothing sball be taken sway from them which they feed for their existence and for tbeit wellbeing ‘Wo came 40 aa, not to take sway. We caine to create. ‘We may and we wil vomie nid we are atited tp come aa long an the Jewish probiem, Snot selved as long as there ie need. for Jews to come to Palestine aad Chore is'a place fy hem, in Palestine without displacing others. We are not baying a National Home; wo aro not conguoe. ing it.” We aro re-creating it. This ie the great imporiance which Jewish Icbour and self work play in our national movement. As a child cannot be ought of ancther woman, a mother must give birth to her child, so the people itself must give birth {0, must creato by its own effort, by its own work, its country, its homeland. That i why wo insist that our work in Palestine, the fields, which we are ploughing, the factories in which we aro working, he houses we are living in, must all be done by oarselves; otherwise we shall not be entitled to call it ours, ours in the senio in which a people calls a land its own land, New I come to the question cf Sir Horace. “TH Palestine is our country, it is not to the exclusion of other inhabitants; it 's also their country, the county of those who ate bora here and have no other homeland, and are can come ia without any limit except the limit not to displace the existing inhabitants, It means a complete solution of the Jewish problem; it means making the Jewish people masters ‘of their own destiny as any other tree independent people—then why a home and not a Jewish State?” Sometimes it is also asked why dove it say "in Palestine " and not “Palestine a a National Home”. First of all, T would say tHe programme of oar movement, when i wae Smt formulated ‘aot created, for i existed throughout our history—but when it was rst politically formulated at the frst Zionist Con- ress in Basle in 1897—we used almost: the same words as are used in the Ballour Declaration, to create in Palestine a homeland for the Jewish people, “It was formalated in the German language, Hoimstactte. 4398, ‘That does not mean homeland?—A home socured by public law, a home for the Jowish pepele in Palestine, ‘Heimetactte is a peculiar word in Corman. : 14539- Sir Horace Rumbold: You can speak of “join Heim "ip German and i is the equivalent of an English “home ""?—T say that wo ted the expression at thot time “in Palestine.” We did not say ‘Palestine aa a National Home.” We Gid not say to make in Palestine a Jewish State. We did not say it at that time and we do not say it now and T will toll you why. There are three reasons. Our aim is to make the Jewish people master of its own destiny, not eubjoct 0 the will and mercy of others, as any other free people. But it is not part of our aim to dominate anybody clec. if Palestine were an empty country we could say. 1 Jewish Stato, because the Jowish State would coasist of Jews only and our self government in Palestine would not concem others. “But there are other inhabitants in Palestine who are here and, as we do not want to be at the mercy of others, ‘they have a right not to be at the morey of the Jews, It may be the Jews would behave better, but they ate not bound to believe in our goodwill A state may imply, though not necessarily, it may imply—since thers aro two aationalities~domina- tion of others, the dominarion by the Jewish majority of the minority, but that i not ocr aim Tt was not oor aim at that time and it i not our 4540. Sir Laurio Hammond: Not your aim to dominate? —Net our aim to deminate anybody tse, but to be free ourselves, Not to be dependent ‘upon others and not to dominate others, 4541. Chairman: ‘That je why you want a Mandate “to keep you of of temptation? —No, We said that belore there was a question of a Mandate; it was before the War, in 1897. ‘This was the formula we used. Tam explaining why. 4542. I follow?—Recause we take into comsidern- tion the fact that thers aze ‘noa-Jews in. Palestine and it was not our aim and we do not need to dominate them, A state may imply a wish to dominate 2 minority, the wish to dominate others, ‘The second reason is that 2 state meane a separate political entity not attached to any other state unit. “A Jewish National home may also mean that, but not necessarily so. On the comtrary, we should like this country to be attached to a greater unit, ‘a unit that is called the British Commonwealth of Nations, |For the solution of the Jewish problem, for our free national future, it is not neccesary that Palestine should constitate a separate Stats and we should be only too glad if in the future, when the Jewish National Home is fully estab: lished, Palestine shall be eternally and completely: frce, but that it should be a member of a unit, “Matis the. British Commonwealth of Nations, There is a third reason why wo do not Use the formula of a Jewish State. ‘There are Holy Places in Palestine which aro holy tothe whole civilised world and we are unwilling and it is not in our interest that we showld be made responsible for them. “We recognise that they. should be placed under a higher supecvision, under some international control or a mantatory or some other international body, as is laid down tn the Mandate. These are the tree reasons why we do not use this term which may be misunderstood but other wise there is no difference ‘between a National ‘Home for the Jewish people and what is ordinarily ‘meant by & Jewish Slate, except that there is one sdvantoge iu a Nativual Moms. There is something290 PALESTINE ROYAL COMMISSION 7 Fanuary, 1957.) mois ia & National Home for the Jewish people itn in’ Jewish State and 1 yall stow you wat ih Hi wd cay fev Site thoy Cees Yess ‘att Geet it as cavly coms aa gee See Mant be ataced oe gee palal ae Saws are a0 Holy Placed’ we sald ovis Slat, i would’ be tos han o Nation Home to the Jewish people. Why? A Jewish Sts, fa team CE any tes stat, “would mean the sovesgnty of the people of that ate Wany gen tine thoy ey dalle sitet tng Sy Jeans Who shall baa ot cone ts ne Sake, But ‘wher Crest ‘fas ada oer European ‘Powete secgnised the “ght ofthe Towle boos aa he toronto ee cust Ler ebuotiete thee Notonal Home, hose the Tg of atthe gonpane oni ee Jaws Tho hppa to be herd when the Jowen ete nye i caty and ey might rele aetenely tet nother Jews, “here Mo Sth gh Ee eee eee rae cee Ine Toweted they aay by Srteiol thet sabes atwnnste the comtry, hve ne ight alae fo ee ire ee hbeauny, Saunt Home tor th eu Stee sone popes pee ee 49. Sir_Horace Rumbold: You mean_there eet er 2 eh Ssiast Sac ay We hove Seu epi emf dott wat any mse of sea ee Cibo” ein any teea eS TOS they coluot doi "ich fhe W's Netlne! Hime Be Se ow ott 4541, Charman: They. would. bave the power wells Fag ocoone Be TESS hae Tinimaintd Ey intoratona. low they ant eve Mag tr WE Se won’ Joba Coven Hust they mi ply tenons “hey ould noe Bat eee bay ther Jor, Treas fa Be ee ee ee weal, tt tel 86S of he Nala Hate in ae ete ne center ope who oe Balestine, “It is related to bvo things, 40 the need Eiko Jew poopie in tke wend: tow tangy. Jowe Sie ed alan bp Bachae sad Ws Tabet rah We omshceer Baetae kee ani ara That ca So ling o cone Dock and a long ao 9 fies So toma fe Rls ebtout deg ons EPG aleady hore, ho'coa Some Eee Only Ee ee Slow, Staite Ge dae of tho foots National Home, "Te'may be said that id ved i's now tno ie neal By ange retro Fons fo Palestine thet feng novel face conto by te present oom tle £ Satntny Baad anton ha aot Sees Tisai’ fo ke tack se the tt Zot ra iy ie ey St “Cangas Sabre tin Wary mee ne fe Sores ae ee este ae pes ina groad namber of counties” The menaco to the sae penne ee teey ere ete ee Be Wal Coagieben That ula Torre was Eiires on ike yowimh peson tie wold by Be Racks Jew wnt Mas Mocdag. “Ea ages Sel Cosstladan” ap bel ube Bag te Set Sr Te Ma et a Ber Hla was fated sive svidencs beore nt Cctration’ Wat way Ser Sgt contact wi a Saush yal Commision ia te hstry of out Near se eat Cea, Uae wer iia, and goa wil Sd in Command Bogor) "this Sabon Of the Jowih “tifeuoy ee ae Riaclg Up thon of ¢ gly sect oe, te wich Jeb inne pelo Sootwenld hich Ty ad Spear! weld sturlly sig” aod Shen the Slee wan made by lke’ Charan at Me. D. Bus-Gurvon. that time to settle Jews in Uganda it was also not meant as a spisittal centre, Uganda. cannot be sant ae sprsthal centre for the jews, te it wat Ineant a2 a place to which Jews who were unable to semain where they were eduld.come, “Then when hie Belfour ‘Decinrtion was fade, one of the Authors of the Halfoor Deslaration anda. Member of fhe, War Cabinet, Gensral Srowts,eforw. the new immigration started after the War, made a Grelaration, "1 bave no Goabt im tay mind that, fithough 7’ may not live to see the day when the Whole of Israel will return to Palestine, yet more nol more fe vil bocome the national home of the [Jewish people, From those "parts of the world sthere the Jews ate oppreted and tokappy, where ‘hey ace r0t welcomed by the reat of the Christan popitation, om those parts of the world you will Yet see a ever increasing stream of immigrants £0 Palestine,” “That was said in 19%9 15(5., We have hada great deal of evidence about wiist General Srats sald and. that kind of thing? Ido not want to check you-—i ave finished sith fat point “54h. Compatibility of Jewish and Arsb national ispitation’? “1 am comiag to that. This basa Benzing on the question of oor attitude to our Arab neighbour. We never ignored the existence of the hom-Jewish popsiation We ‘never ignored the existence of the Arab National Movement. We belive, and what we fave done up to now in Palestine tas proved cur belie to be trae, that oar swori in Palestine, which "was ‘undertaken for the Salvation of the Jowh people, wil, by ta inherent satire, be of great Benen not only” 19 the none Jewish population of Palestine, bot to. the nebgh- oaring ‘omarion and. 30. the ‘whole of the ‘Near East, We welcome the fact that the peoples of Taq, of Beypt, and now of Syria have attained hele Sngepenience, “noe only on moral gronnis, not only lecause we are Zionists, and so we appre: late a national movement and are able to respect {eand to sympathise with it, but also from 2 deeper sense of atltintorest. In order to have a National “ome we must have avery strong ad merous Jewish ‘community im PalestineI am rot able to Hay low any we shall have in the fature—and itis estat for our existence and for our develop- Ient that the countries around us should be happy and developed and properous. We believe the ibenett we are conferring on the country—and It i only actesary to take a short tour dn Palestine fo see the benefit of the Jews to. the. whole country—will alo accrue to those peoples: in the Heighbourky counties to Palestine who are’ now achieving thelr independence, It is-unfortanats that here smong our Arab neighbours theres oa” 2 polldcal natiopal movement, Y am not blaming finybody, T'have no sight to blame anybody? every people has the right to arrange its own movement Ss'it tikes, but there is a very esvental diference between cur national movement and. the national movement of the Arabs here. Our movement alnly constructive. We are not “engaged. in ‘eilation, but in creative worl. We had to do in order wo achieve our aim; we had’ soclaim land, to increase is prodactvity, build cities and factories, create artistic and’ sceatiic Tosttatons, nd 20 On. Ose Arab ‘neighbours were sngugod it ‘eis work, in purely politcal work. Now we ate happy to te that ox neighboer im Syriay in Ira and in Egypt, having achieved their independence, fannot nom blame a foreign Government for thet oubles, and they” alo are facing. constzuctive probins, They ate now rope fr thei ons Eoentry and for their owa people and they. cannot fut the Thame on the Bibet oc on. the’ Brenche at ‘they ave themselves to. solve thelr own problems, and they will kave also to engage in the Some constmactive work as me are doing bere. T Inlows thet they, and, after them, cur Arab neigh: boars in Palsstin aloo. wil more appreciate. the PEE EE EeeeeEeeeee eagle eetMINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 291 7 January, 1937.) beneficial nature of our constructive work and they: will see that not only is there no conflict of interests between the Jewish people as a whole aad the Arab people as a Whole Dut that tele interests fare complementary. “We need each other. We ‘aan benefit each other, I have no doubt that at Teast our neighbours around us in Syria, Iraq, and Egypt will be the first to recognise dat fact and from them this consciousness will also spread in Palestine amongst our Arab” neighbours here, because there Is no essential conflict. We have never had 2 quarrel with the Arabs on our side, neither with the Arabs in Palestine nor the Arabs in other countries. On the contrary. We came to this country with the consciousnest that, besides saving ourselves and freeing and liberating our own people, we had also a great civilizing task to achieve here, and that we could be of great help to our Arab neighbours here and in the surrounding Countries, and T believe we have proved it by our Mr. D. Bax-Guriox [Continued works, ‘The stronger we get, the greater our com- munity becomes in Palestine, the greater or colonisation work, the more developed our scientific institutions become, the more will be recognised by ‘oar neighbours abroad and here the blessing of our work and the mutual interest which exists historically between the Jewish people which is returning to its country, ietaming with the tradi tion of European cultare, with the blessing of European culture, and the Arab peoples aronnd us, who also want to achieve not only formal. political independence, but are also interested in achioving fan economic, intellectual, spiritual, and. cultural Fenaissance, and it Is our belief that'a great Jewish community, fee Jewish ‘nation, ih Palestine, with a lasge scope for its activities, will be of great benefit fo our Arab neighsours, and from. the secognition of this fact will come a lasting peace and lasting co-operation between the two peoples 4547. Chairman: T understand you wish to make some further points in a private sitting? —Yee