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Sunni Shia Debate On Polytheism

Abu Jaiyana
October 23 at 2:33pm

12 Imamiya Shia Mushriks (Polytheists) ?


Resolve: ASKING HELP FROM OTHER THAN ALLAH (ALI OR HUSAIN) IN DUA IS SHIRK IN
ISLAMIC JURISPRUDENCE.
Affirmative: Abu Jaiyana AhlulSunnah (mainstream Islam)
Negative : Nass Abinal aka Hussein Abinal ( Twelvers Shiaism)
Format:
1. Presentations: 2500 words maximum
2. Cross Examinations: 5 Questions maximum per debater
3. Replies to Cross Examination Questions: 500 words maximum per question
4. Rebuttals: 2500 words maximum
5. Conclusions: 1000 words maximum
Rules:
1. No links, smilies, pictures, all caps paragraph is allowed.
2. 48 hours time limit to reply to the post of the opponent (responding asap is highly recommended
and appreciated)
3. Violation the the format and/or any of the rules will render the violator lost by default.
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Hussein Abinal, Lahsim Irsuy, Sam Maulana and 37 others like this.
Comments

Ashabe Mauna Guro Sir Nass Abinal, ayan motion maganda yan na motion laban ka para naman mapakinggan
mga katwiran mo.
Unlike Reply 1 October 23 at 8:32pm

Abu Jaiyana I will expose the polytheistic practice of this religion of shirk in sha Allah based on the Quran and the
Sunnah of the Prophet s.a.w.
Like Reply 4 October 23 at 8:52pm

Abu Jaiyana Wait for Nass Abinal - this would be a historical fb debate bet sunnis and shias in Philippines because
Nass Abinal is the vanguard of the shias here in Phils.
Like Reply 5 October 23 at 9:19pm

Nass Abinal You may proceed. Prove your assertion.


Unlike Reply 2 October 23 at 10:59pm

Abu Jaiyana







I begin by mentioning the name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful
All perfect praise be to Allaah, The Lord of the Worlds. I testify that there is none worthy of worship except Allaah,
and that Muhammad, is His slave and Messenger.
I welcome everyone and I encouraged each and every reader of this debate to read carefully and ponder deeply on
the arguments and evidences of both sides in this debate. My opponent, Nass Abinal, is known to be the greatest
defender of shiaism cult here in the Philippines; he admitted to me that Iran is supporting his group, therefore he is
no ordinary shia debater.
The issue in this debate is whether or not asking help from other than Allah in Dua (supplication) is shirk
(polytheism) in Islamic jurisprudence. In Arabic terminology, it is known as ISTIGHATHAH
The people of Sunnah (ahlul Sunnah) consider ISTIGHATHAH as shirk, while the Shias Imamiya known as the Jafari
or 12 Imamites consider it as permissible, so what would be our objective criteria in judging whether
ISTIGHATHAH is shirk or not shirk?
We also know that the ahlul Sunnah and the Shias accept the Quran to be hujja, proof in and of itself, and that the
Sunnah of the Prophet elaborates the Quran, therefore, in order for me, the affirmative side, to prove that
ISTIGHATHAH is shirk, I will use both the Quran and the Sunnah as proof for my argument .
Nass Abinal and I will surely have different interpretations of the ayat of the Quran as well as the hadiths of Prophet
Muhammad, but for you readers, let the Quran and the Sunnah speak for themselves. Our personal interpretations
here is not important.
Allah said 4:59 O you who have believed, obey Allah and obey the Messenger and those in authority among you. And
if you disagree over anything, REFER IT TO ALLAH AND THE MESSENGER, if you should believe in Allah and the Last
Day. That is the best [way] and best in result.
Like Reply 10 October 24 at 10:36am

Abu Jaiyana WHAT IS SHIRK?


The word shirk in Arabic means taking a partner. It is said in Arabic: ASHRAKA BAYNAHUMA, trans. he joined them
together.
In terms of shareeah or Islamic terminology, shirk means ascribing a partner or rival to Allaah in Lordship
(ruboobiyyah), WORSHIP (Ibadah) or in His names and attributes.
Example:
2:165. And there are some among men who take for themselves OBJECTS of worship besides Allah, whom they love
as they love Allah
WaoAAbudoo Allaha wala tushrikoo bihi shayan
4: 36. And serve Allah and do not associate anything with Him
Like Reply 9 October 24 at 10:37am

Abu Jaiyana DU (SUPPLICATION) IN ISLAM IS AN ACT OF WORSHIP ACCORDING TO THE QURAN AND THE
SUNNAH:
72: 20.

72: 20. Qul innama ADAAOO rabbee wala oshriku bihi ahadan
72: 20. Say: I only call upon my Lord, and I do not associate any one with Him.
Sunan Abu Dawud Book 8, 1474, 17, Hadith 1465 The Prophet ( )said : Supplication (du'a') is itself the worship. "
Sunan At-Tirmidhi 3247 - An-Numan ibn Basheer reported: I heard the Prophet, peace and blessings be upon him,
say, Supplication is worship.
Like Reply 9 October 24 at 10:38am

Abu Jaiyana LET US NOW EXAMINE WHAT ALLAH HAD TAUGHT US IN MAKING/PERFORMING OUR ACTS OF
WORSHIP SUCH AS IN MAKING DUA OR SUPPLICATION.
Allah said:...See More
Like Reply 10 October 24 at 10:40am

Abu Jaiyana SHIA ALIBIS


The shias may say that they dont consider Ali or Husayn as Gods besides Allah or even equal to Allah, so how can
that be Shirk?
Well, considering the object of worship to be God or equal to God doesnt negate the act of shirk itself. The Catholics
dont consider Mary and their saints as Gods or equal to God, but still they are committing shirk in asking help from
them because they are supposed to ask help in their supplications directly to God.
The polytheists argument during the Prophets time, as Allah indicates:
39: 3. Surely pure religion is for Allah only. And those who choose protecting friends beside Him (say): WE
WORSHIP THEM ONLY THAT THEY MAY BRING US NEAR UNTO ALLAH. Lo! Allah will judge between them
concerning that wherein they differ. Lo! Allah guideth not him who is A LIAR, AN INGRATE.
The polytheists didnt actually believe that their objects of worship are equal with God, let alone separate Gods, yet
that didnt excuse them for being labeled as polytheists by the Prophet s.a.w.
Like Reply 10 October 24 at 10:42am

Abu Jaiyana PLEASE BE CAREFUL WITH THE SHIA DECEIT FOLKS.


Some shias also said that intercession is allowed in the Quran Yes it is allowed but it is not granted to those who
commit shirk.
4: 48. Surely Allah does not forgive that anything should be associated with Him, and forgives what is besides that to
whomsoever He pleases; and whoever associates anything with Allah, he devises indeed a great sin.
Moreover, intercession would only take place in the hereafter not in this world, therefore calling anyone other than

Allah to help us in this world is nonsensical.


Some shias also said that some Sahaba do tawasul to someone tawasul is allowed but only to a living person.
There is no instruction either from the Quran or in the Sunnah that making tawasul to those who have passed away
(not living anymore in this world) is allowed.
On the contrary the Sahaba such as Umar made tawasul with Al Abbas, the uncle of the Prophet. Had tawasul
allowed for those who have passed away, Umar would have made tawasul with the Prophet instead of Al Abbas.
Like Reply 9 October 24 at 10:44am

Abu Jaiyana SOME SHIAS MISUSED THIS AYAH IN ORDER TO PROMOTE THEIR SHIRK
2:154 "And do not speak of those who are slain in Allah's way as dead; nay, (they are) alive, but you do not
perceive."
They will play on you on the word dead they would say that their saints are not dead therefore it is okay to ask
help from them.
We ask them, If they are not dead, then why did you bury them?
The word dead here folks doesnt mean they didnt die in this world, or that they are still living in this world. In fact,
this ayah was revealed in connection to the martyrdom of the Sahaba in the Battle of Uhud. Allah merely eased the
sorrow of the Muslims by telling them that the souls of those martyrs DID NOT CEASE TO EXIST but they are in
paradise.
All everyone shall taste death:
21: 35. Every soul must taste of death
Even Prophet Muhammad would die and has died.
39:29 Verily, you (O Muhammad SAW) will die and verily, they (too) will die.
Like Reply 11 October 24 at 10:46am

Abu Jaiyana ANOTHER MISUSE OF THE AYAH BY THE SHIAS:


5: 35. O you who believe! be careful of (your duty to) Allah and seek means of nearness to Him and strive hard in His
way that you may be successful.
Al-Hafidh Ibn Katheer r. reported Ibn Abbas r.a saying in his commentary of this verse: The meaning of al-Waseelah
is to draw closer. He also reports from Qatadah: THIS IS THAT YOU DRAW NEAR TO HIM BY OBEDIENCE TO
HIM AND THROUGH ACTIONS THAT ARE PLEASING TO HIM. And Ibn Katheer r. said: And with regard to what
those Imams (Ibn Abbas and Qatadah) said there is no disagreement between the scholars of Tafseer about it.
Moreover, even if we dont present that tafseer of Ibn Abbas r.a. still we can logically say that it is not seeking
nearness (wasilah) to Allah when someone does shirk because Allah has already said that shirk is unforgivable.
We ask help from a physician or anyone because they are still living in this world and, they are present and are able
to help us despite of that, we dont ask help from them in our Dua.
Like Reply 9 October 24 at 10:46am

Abu Jaiyana ALI AND HUSAYN R.A, DID NOT ORDER THE SHIAS TO CALL ON THEM IN THEIR DUA AFTER
THEIR DEMISE.
What is very amazing here folks is that Ali and Husayn who are made as object of worship by the Shias never told the
shias, in any authentic report, that they should or could be called in for help in their Du'a after their demise.
This is purely innovation in religion even in shiaism.
Jesus a.s. didnt tell his followers to call on him or worship him after his ascension/departure but Christians do call on
Jesus, and even Mary a.s. and the Catholic saints.
The Shias do the same shirk with Ali, Husayn, Fatima, ect.
Like Reply 7 October 24 at 10:59am

Abu Jaiyana In summary, my opponent needs to refute the following points:


1. That Dua is in itself Ibada (act of worship) according to the Quran and the Sunnah .
2. That acts of worship is directed/addressed ONLY to Allah according to the Quran and the Sunnah .
3. That Shias are guilty of shirk when they call Ali and Husayn for help in their dua because they are committing shirk
in their act of worship.
Our challenge to Nass Abinal is to produce the following evidences:
1. Asking help in Dua from anyone other than Allah is approved in the Quran.
2. Asking help in Dua from anyone other than Allah is commanded or practiced by Prophet Muhammad and is
reported in Sahih Hadiths.
His failure to produce the evidences from the Quran and the authentic sunnah would mean defeat of Shiaism.
Please be careful of the snowball fallacy folks. Someone would quote so many ayat which do not really support his
argument but a deception to the readers by bluffing them that the guy has many ayat to support his argument where
in fact those ayat say something else.
Please be careful also with untraceable hadiths, and hadiths which are not considered as authentic by hadith
scholars. Our Shia friend are very good of doing this trick. I hope Nass Abinall would not employ that devilish strategy
here in this debate.
Jazakallaho Khair.
End of my presentation.
Like Reply 8 October 24 at 10:59am

Nass Abinal In the Name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful


All praise belongs to Allah, the Lord of the Universe.
And blessings and peace be upon our Prophet and Master Muhammad and his purified and righteous family.

I testify that there is no god but Allah, the One Who has no partner.
And I testify that Muhammad is His Slave and Messenger.
And I testify that 'Ali is the Ameerul Mo'mineen, the Imaamul Muttaqeen and the Waliul Mo'mineen.
A Muslim who makes these testimonies sincerely is a monotheist and his eeman / faith is complete.
The Qur'an demonstrates very clearly that polytheism or attributing partners to Allah, the Glorified, the Exalted, is not
limited to worshiping or asking help from men or man-made lifeless idols but choosing and following the people not
chosen by Allah, the Glorified, the Exalted, for our guidance after Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him and his
family.
The Qur'an made this obvious in the following verses:
Say: "Of your 'partners' is there any that can give any guidance towards truth?" Say: "It is Allah Who gives guidance
towards truth, is then He Who gives guidance to truth more worthy to be followed, or he who finds not guidance
(himself) unless he is guided? what then is the matter with you? How judge ye?" 11:35.
Say: Praise be to Allah, and Peace on his servants whom He has chosen (for his Message). (Who) is better?- Allah
or the false gods they associate (with Him)? 27:59
Thy Lord does create and choose as He pleases: no choice have they (in the matter): Glory to Allah! and far is He
above the partners they ascribe (to Him)! 28:68.
If the Ashaab / Companions as a whole were the chosen ones of Allah, the Glorified, the Exalted, then, abandoning
them in favor of the Ahlulbayt or the family of the Messenger is shirk.
However, the Qur'an guides us to the people chosen by Allah, the Glorified, the Exalted, in the following verses:
Show us the straight way,
The way of those on whom Thou hast bestowed Thy Grace, ..... 1:6-7
This is the Book; in it is guidance sure, without doubt, to those who fear Allah;
Who believe in the Unseen, are steadfast in prayer, and spend out of what We have provided for them;
And who believe in the Revelation sent to thee, and sent before thy time, and (in their hearts) have the assurance of
the Hereafter.
They are on (true) guidance, from their Lord, and it is these who will prosper. 2:2-5.
To be continued.
Like Reply 10 October 24 at 2:45pm

Nass Abinal Continuation of my presentation.


They say: "Become Jews or Christians if ye would be guided (To salvation)." Say thou: "Nay! (I would rather) the
Religion of Abraham the True, and he joined not gods with Allah."
Say ye: "We believe in Allah, and the revelation given to us, and to Abraham, Isma'il, Isaac, Jacob, and the Tribes,
and that given to Moses and Jesus, and that given to (all) prophets from their Lord: We make no difference between
one and another of them: And we bow to Allah (in Islam)."
So if they believe as ye believe, they are indeed on the right path; but if they turn back, it is they who are in schism;
but Allah will suffice thee as against them, and He is the All-Hearing, the All-Knowing. 2:135-137.

The Messenger believeth in what hath been revealed to him from his Lord, as do the men of faith. Each one (of them)
believeth in Allah, His angels, His books, and His messengers. "We make no distinction (they say) between one and
another of His messengers." And they say: "We hear, and we obey: (We seek) Thy forgiveness, our Lord, and to
Thee is the end of all journeys."
On no soul doth Allah Place a burden greater than it can bear. It gets every good that it earns, and it suffers every ill
that it earns. (Pray:) "Our Lord! Condemn us not if we forget or fall into error; our Lord! Lay not on us a burden Like
that which Thou didst lay on those before us; Our Lord! Lay not on us a burden greater than we have strength to
bear. Blot out our sins, and grant us forgiveness. Have mercy on us. Thou art our Protector; Help us against those
who stand against faith."
2:285-286
O ye who believe! bow down, prostrate yourselves, and adore your Lord; and do good; that ye may prosper.
And strive in His cause as ye ought to strive, (with sincerity and under discipline). He has chosen you, and has
imposed no difficulties on you in religion; it is the cult of your father Abraham. It is He Who has named you Muslims,
both before and in this (Revelation); that the Messenger may be a witness for you, and ye be witnesses for mankind!
So establish regular Prayer, give regular Charity, and hold fast to Allah! He is your Protector - the Best to protect and
the Best to help! 22:77-78.
The verses quoted above have told us, among others, the following:
1. The Right Path is the Path of the People favored or blessed by Allah, the Glorified, the Exalted. This Right Path
includes the acts of worship and asking help from Allah, the Glorified, the Exalted. 1:6-7
2. The favored Servants of Allah, the Glorified, the Exalted, are the Muttaquun / Pious who are described in 2:2-5.
3. Judaism, Christianity and Polytheism have been rejected by Allah, the Glorified, the Exalted. The Millah / Religion
of Ibrahim, on him be peace, 2:135, which was followed by the Messenger, peace be on him and his family, was the
Shi'a / Sect of Nuh, on him be peace, 37:83, which is Islam, 3:19.
4. With in the ranks of the Muslims, there is an Ummah / people for whom the Qur'an has been revealed, 2:136, and
definitely, this Ummah does not include the converts to Islam whether from Judaism, Christianity or Paganism. This
Ummah is the pattern not only of beliefs but also of the acts of worship and everything related to Islam.
5. These are the believers mentioned in 2:285-286 and 22:77-78. They were chosen by Allah, the Glorified, the
Exalted. Ibrahim , on him be peace, was their father. They are the Witnesses for the people and the Messenger will
be a Witness for them.
Allah, the Glorified, the Exalted, identified His chosen Servants as the Messenger, peace be upon him and his family,
and his purified ahlulbayt, on them be peace, which can be found in the traditions narrated by the Companions and
the Imams themselves.
Therefore, the alleged Muslims, companions or not, who did not follow the Ahlulbayt, on them be peace, were
Mushrikuun / Polytheists, according to the clear verses of the Qur'an.
To be continued.
Like Reply 9 October 24 at 2:49pm

Nass Abinal Continuation of my presentation.


Abu Jaiyana has tried his best to prove the proposition that it is polytheism to ask for help to anyone other than Allah,
the Glorified, the Exalted, in the Islamic jurisprudence.

He advanced as his proof verses which are either the general rule or the verses which are for the non-believers
ignoring the exception.
Allah, the Glorified, the Exalted, as the Legislator, revealed the following verses containing or mandating the
permissibility of calling people other than Him for intercession.
The Qur'an says:
And blessed is He to Whom belongs the dominion of the heavens and the earth, and all between them: with Him is
the Knowledge of the Hour (of Judgment): and to Him shall ye be brought back
And those whom they invoke besides Allah have no power of intercession;only he who bears witness to the Truth, and they know (him).
If thou ask them, who created them, they will certainly say, Allah: How then are they deluded away (from the Truth)?
(Allah has knowledge) of the (Prophet's) cry, "O my Lord! Truly these are people who will not believe!" 43:85-88.
All the objections of Abu Jaiyana have been answered by the verses above.
Who can best explain the Qur'an except Allah, the Glorified, the Exalted.
To Allah, the Glorified, the Exalted, belongs the dominion of the Heavens and the Earth.
He prohibited calling others besides Him for intercession but He permitted it for those who bear witness to the truth or
who confirm the truth.
Imam 'Ali confirmed the Truth while still a child and he was the epitome of belief and good deeds and the people
knew him very well. This is also true for the other Imams, peace be upon them all.
Abu Jaiyana will try to put some conditions on these verses, especially, 43:86, but the verses did not limit the
permissiblity of calling the people given permission to intercede when they were still alive in this World.
Why? Because Allah, the Glorified, the Exalted, is the Creator of everything and to Him belongs the sovereignty over
His creation.
To be continued.
Like Reply 9 October 24 at 2:53pm

Nass Abinal Continuation of my presentation.


Abu Jaiyana should be honest enough to admit that he is not debating here as a representative of the Ahlus Sunnah.
He represents the Salafis who consider shirk the practice of asking for help or shafa'a from a dead pious Muslim.
He has focused his attention to verses prohibiting making du'a to the enemies of Allah, the Glorified, the Exalted,
forgetting the fact that it is the style of the Qur'an to reserve a certain virtue or perfection to Allah, the Glorified, the
Exalted, alone, then reject it for others and still confirm it for others by His permission.
The following verses are the basis of both the Ahlus Sunnah and the Shi'a in their belief for the permissibility of
making tawassul and asking shafa'a to the Messenger, peace be upon him and his family, the Imams, peace be upon
them, and other righteous and pious Muslims.

................Who is there can intercede in His presence except as He permitteth? He knoweth what (appeareth to His
creatures as) before or after or behind them......2:255
And say not of those who are slain in the way of Allah: "They are dead." Nay, they are living, though ye perceive (it)
not. 2:154.
We sent not a messenger, but to be obeyed, in accordance with the will of Allah. If they had only, when they were
unjust to themselves, come unto thee and asked Allah's forgiveness, and the Messenger had asked forgiveness for
them, they would have found Allah indeed Oft-returning, Most Merciful. 4:64.
O ye who believe! Do your duty to Allah, seek the means of approach unto Him, and strive with might and main in his
cause: that ye may prosper.
5:35
Say: "To Allah belongs exclusively (the right to grant) intercession: to Him belongs the dominion of the heavens and
the earth: In the End, it is to Him that ye shall be brought back." 39:44.
And those whom they invoke besides Allah have no power of intercession;- only he who bears witness to the Truth,
and they know (him). 43:86.
Rejecting these verses with unfounded excuses will make a Muslim kaafir / unbeliever.
To be continued.
Like Reply 10 October 24 at 4:45pm

Nass Abinal Continuation of my presentation.


The Qur'an perfectly demonstrated when asking or calling someone for intercession is permitted and not considered
Shirk by Allah, the Glorified, the Exalted.
In addition to 4:64 that tells the Muslims to ask forgiveness through the intercession of the Messenger, peace be
upon him and his family, which is not limited while he was still alive, the story of the brothers of Yusuf, on him be
peace, is given below:
They said: "O our father! ask for us forgiveness for our sins, for we were truly at fault."
He said: "Soon will I ask my Lord for forgiveness for you: for he is indeed Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful." 12:98.
The narration below proves the permissibilty of calling someone for purposes of intercession. The basis of the
intercession of Abbas was his relationship to the Messenger, peace be upon him and his family.

. .
Narrated Anas: Whenever drought threatened them, `Umar bin Al-Khattab, used to ask Al-Abbas bin `Abdul Muttalib
to invoke Allah for rain. He used to say, "O Allah! We used to ask our Prophet to invoke You for rain, and You would
bless us with rain, and now we ask his uncle to invoke You for rain. O Allah ! Bless us with rain."(1) And so it would
rain.
Reference: Sahih al-Bukhari 1010
In-book reference:Book 15, Hadith 5

In this presentation, I have proven from the Qur'an the following:


1. It is polytheism to follow people who were not guided unless they were guided by other people. 10:35.
2. It is polytheism to abandon the chosen servants of Allah, the Glorified, the Exalted, in favor of other people. 28:68,
27:59.
3. The Qur'an permits calling people besides Allah for intercession if these people confirmed the truth and they know
the truth or the people know them. 43:86
4. The malicious assertion that the Shi'a of the 12 Imams, on them be peace, are practicing shirk by calling the
Imams for help or intercession is simply not true.
5. Denial of the validity or permissibilty of calling the Messenger, peace be upon him and his family, and the 12
Imams, peace be upon them, for intercession is disbelief in Allah, the Glorified, the Exalted, and the Qur'an.
Alhamdulillaahi rabbil 'aalameen.
Allahommaa salli 'alaa Muhammad wa Aale Muhammad.
Like Reply 12 October 24 at 8:00pm

Abu Jaiyana CROSS EXAM.


Thank you Nass Abinal for your presentation.
I just want to make a comment on your ad hominem fallacy against me. You are accusing me of being a Salafi. Im not
a Salafi - As you can see, my arguments are all based on the Quran and the Sunnah which is really the aqeeda of the
Ahlul Sunnah.
I dont understand WHAT DIFFERENCE DOES IT MAKE whether I am a salafi or deobandi, or Ahmadi or whatever
I dont see any relevance of any madhab or sect to the topic of the debate. It is CALLED POISONING THE WELL
FALLACY. It is not befitting for you to use such kind of fallacy especially that you are the best man of Iran here.
You can tell people that I am representing the GWAPINGS Sect - that would not help your arguments even an iota.
HERE ARE MY QUESTIONS:
1. In my presentation, I argued that there not a single ayah in the Quran which allows calling those who have passed
away for help. However, you cited an example from the Quran that some people ask help from someone yet it is not
shirk.
You cited Suah 4:64 in which the brothers of Yusof a.s. asked their father, Yaqoob, to pray to Allah to forgive them:
* When the brothers of Yusof. A.s. did this - was their father still living or had already passed away?
2. You also cited the Tawasul made by Umar to Al-Abbas r.a. and this happened after the Prophet had passed away we the Ahlul Sunnah 100% approved. Al Abbas r.a. here is STILL LIVING IN THIS WORLD AT that time.
* How does this tawasul prove that calling people who have passed away for help is permissible?
3. You cited the ayah which I already have explained in my presentation, Surah 2:154 in which Allah told the Muslims

that those who were slain in Jihad are still living. My question is:
* Are those martyrs still living in this world or are they living in Jannah?
Provide authentic hadith for your answer
4. You cited the ayah, Surah 5:35 which says seek any means to approach unto Him. We differ in the interpretation
to this. However Allah told us that if we differ we will refer it back to Allah and His Messenger, so my question is:
* Do you have any ayah or authentic hadith from the prophets Sunnah in which we are taught or instructed to call on
those who have passed away because it is one of the means to approach Allah?
5. The Ahlul Sunnah and the Shias both believe in the intercession (shafaat) that would be granted by Allah to
anyone He wills. The Prophet can intercede, as well as the martyrs, the Quran, Fasting, etc. there is NO PROBLEM
at all. However, my question is:
*When would Allah grant the intercession to anyone he wills is it in this world or is it in the hereafter?
Thank you.
Like Reply 10 October 25 at 9:10am

Nass Abinal CROSS EXAM.


Thank you Nass Abinal for your presentation.
HERE ARE MY QUESTIONS:
1. In my presentation, I argued that there not a single ayah in the Quran which allows calling those who have passed
away for help. However, you cited an example from the Quran that some people ask help from someone yet it is not
shirk.
You cited Suah 4:64 in which the brothers of Yusof a.s. asked their father, Yaqoob, to pray to Allah to forgive them:
* When the brothers of Yusof. A.s. did this - was their father still living or had already passed away?
Answer:
4:64 pertains to Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him and his family, and the Muslims.
...If they had only, when they were unjust to themselves, come unto thee and asked Allah's forgiveness, and the
Messenger had asked forgiveness for them, they would have found Allah indeed Oft-returning, Most Merciful.
4:64
This ayah is applicable today just as it was done during the time of the Messenger, peace be upon him and his family.
You can greet the Messenger, peace be upon him and his family, by saying As salaamu 'alayka Ya Rasulallaah or Ya
Muhammad. This is being done here in the Philippines and in Madina. We can call on the Messenger, peace be upon
him and his family, and seek his intercession for Allah's forgiveness of our sins. The prophet is one of the
intercessors in this world just as he will be an intercessor in the next life.
The case of Ya'cob and his sons is an example of an intercession of a prophet while he was present with his sons or
people.

2. You also cited the Tawasul made by Umar to Al-Abbas r.a. and this happened after the Prophet had passed away we the Ahlul Sunnah 100% approved. Al Abbas r.a. here is STILL LIVING IN THIS WORLD AT that time.
* How does this tawasul prove that calling people who have passed away for help is permissible?
Answer:
In the narration, Umar invoked the name of Messenger, peace be upon him and his family, as the reason he made
tawassul to al Abbas, may Allah be pleased with him. That is, because of the nearness of the Messenger to Allah, the
Glorified, the Exalted, and Al Abbas was also near to the Messenger, peace be upon him and his family, the prayer
for rain was granted.
3. You cited the ayah which I already have explained in my presentation, Surah 2:154 in which Allah told the Muslims
that those who were slain in Jihad are still living. My question is:
* Are those martyrs still living in this world or are they living in Jannah?
Answer:
They are living in the intermediate realm or the Barzakh. Their life in the Barzakh is far superior to our way of life in
this World. That is why, we are not only prohibited from saying they are dead, we are also prohibited from thinking
they are dead.
Think not of those who are slain in Allah's way as dead. Nay, they live, finding their sustenance in the presence of
their Lord; 3:169.
So you cannot make as your alibi that they cannot be intercessors because they are dead. That is prohibited.
Provide authentic hadith for your answer
4. You cited the ayah, Surah 5:35 which says seek any means to approach unto Him. We differ in the interpretation
to this. However Allah told us that if we differ we will refer it back to Allah and His Messenger, so my question is:
* Do you have any ayah or authentic hadith from the prophets Sunnah in which we are taught or instructed to call on
those who have passed away because it is one of the means to approach Allah?
Answer:
Du'a Tawassul from the Imams, on them be peace, is the most authentic narration and du'a on how to approach
Allah, the Glorified, the Exalted, through the Fourteen Infallibles / Ma'sumeen. Of course, your school of thought is
very much averse to the ways of the people favored or blessed by Allah, the Glorified, the Exalted, both in worshiping
Allah, the Glorified, the Exalted, and in asking for His help.
We are commanded in 5:35 to have taqwa / fear of Allah and fear of Allah is also an intercessor. In addition, we are
told to seek a means of approach to Him. There are many ways to approach Allah, the Glorified, the Exalted, and
Du'a Tawassul is one of them.
5. The Ahlul Sunnah and the Shias both believe in the intercession (shafaat) that would be granted by Allah to
anyone He wills. The Prophet can intercede, as well as the martyrs, the Quran, Fasting, etc. there is NO PROBLEM
at all. However, my question is:
*When would Allah grant the intercession to anyone he wills is it in this world or is it in the hereafter?

Answer:
Intercession is either in the sphere of creation or sphere of legslation.
In creation, all intermediary causes are intercessors because they are placed between the Creator and the created.
In legislation, there are intercessors in this life and in the hereafter.
Intercessors in this life:
Everything that brings a man nearer to Allah, the Glorified, the Exalted, and makes him eligible for Divine forgiveness.
1. Repentence;
Say: "O my Servants who have transgressed against their souls! Despair not of the Mercy of Allah: for Allah forgives
all sins: for He is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful. 39;53
2. True faith;
O ye that believe! Fear Allah, and believe in His Messenger, and He will bestow on you a double portion of His
Mercy: He will provide for you a Light by which ye shall walk (straight in your path), and He will forgive you (your
past): for Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful. 57:28
3. Good deed;
To those who believe and do deeds of righteousness hath Allah promised forgiveness and a great reward. 5:9
4. The prophets;
.......If they had only, when they were unjust to themselves, come unto thee and asked Allah's forgiveness, and the
Messenger had asked forgiveness for them, they would have found Allah indeed Oft-returning, Most Merciful 4:64
5. The Qur'an;
.........There hath come to you from Allah a (new) light and a perspicuous Book, -Wherewith Allah guideth all who
seek His good pleasure to ways of peace and safety, and leadeth them out of darkness, by His will, unto the light,guideth them to a path that is straight. 5:15-16
6. The Angels;
Those who sustain the Throne (of Allah) and those around it Sing Glory and Praise to their Lord; believe in Him; and
implore Forgiveness for those who believe: "Our Lord! Thy Reach is over all things, in Mercy and Knowledge.
Forgive, then, those who turn in Repentance, and follow Thy Path; and preserve them from the Penalty of the Blazing
Fire! 40:7
6. The Believers themselves;
......Blot out our sins, and grant us forgiveness....2:286
As for the intercessors in the hereafter, that is not within the scope of this debate.
Alhamdulillaahi rabbil 'aalameen.

Allaahommaa salli 'alaa Muhammad wa Aale Muhammad.


Shukranlillaah.
Like Reply 11 October 25 at 12:01pm

Nass Abinal Cross Examination


My questions are the following:
Since Allah, the Glorified, the Exalted, is the Creator of whatever He pleases and He chooses, the people or the
Muslims have no right to choose, otherwise partners are attributed to Him, 28:68,
And considering that the purified Ahlulbayt, peace be upon them, were the family of the Messenger, peace be upon
him and his family, and at the same time, they were among Companions and not all Companions were family
members of the Messenger, peace be upon him and his family,
1. Are you not committing shirk or attributing partners to Allah, the Glorified, the Exalted, by following the Companions
instead of the purified family of the Messenger, peace be upon him and his family, after him?
2. If you will say that you are following all the Companions including the purified Ahlulbayt, peace be upon them,
because they were all chosen by Allah, the Glorified, the Exalted, have you not invented a manifest lie which is a
grave injustice / zulm?
Produce your proof that all the Companions, as you defined them, were chosen by Allah, the Glorified, the Exalted.
Allah, the Glorified, the Exalted, says that Salaamun / Peace belongs to His Servants that He has chosen and He is
better than what the people have attributed to Him 27:59 and He made the Qur'an as inheritance of His chosen
Servants 35:32 and the Messenger, peace be upon him and his family, in the Hadith al Thaqalayn/ Two Weighty
Trusts, paired the Ahlulbayt, peace be upon them, with the Qur'an, as the sources of guidance,
3. Are you not committing shirk or attributing partners to Allah, the Glorified, the Exalted, by propagating Islam as
taught by the Companions instead of the purified family / ahlulbayt, peace be upon them all?
Since following people who are not guided unless they are guided by others who are guided by Allah, the Glorified,
the Exalted, is Shirk / Polytheism,10:35, and most of the Companions were guided by the Messenger, peace be upon
him and his family,
4. Was it not waajib / obligatory for them to follow the Imams of guidance, peace be upon them all, after the
Messenger, peace be upon him and his family?
5. Will you still hold the belief that the followers of the 12 Imams, peace be upon them, are mushrikuun after you have
known their arguments?
May Allah, the Glorified, the Exalted, guide you to the path of the blessed and purified Ahlulbayt, peace be upon
them.
Like Reply 11 October 25 at 4:05pm

Abu Jaiyana Thank you Nass Abinal for your Questions:


Here are the answers to your questions, respectively:

#1.
NO, because following the companions has no connection whatsoever about shirk.
I have given the linguistic definition of shirk in my presentation, as well as the meaning of shirk in Islamic terminology
(sharee meaning).
An act is considered shirk if it violates the principles of Tawheed because the antithesis of Tawheed is Shirk.
Following the sahaba has nothing to do with Tawheed or any violation of its principles either in Rubbobiyyah,
Ulohiyya, and Asmawa sifat.
So I really dont understand how following the sahaba would constitute an act of shirk.
Your problem is you are not defining your terminology. Shirk is an Arabic word and it has clear meaning. Read the
definition of shirk as well as the sharee meaning of it which I discussed in my presentation, and you will find out that
you are barking on a wrong tree so to speak.
Moreover, you need to be reminded that the purified Ahlulbayt that you are talking about such Ali, Fatima, Hasan, and
Husayn r.anhum were all Sahaba by necessity and by definition.
The word Sahaba is the plural form of Sahabi. Those who saw, talked, accompanied the Prophet s.a.w. and died as
Muslims are considered Sahaba this definition includes Ali, Fatima, Hasan, and Husayn r.anhum
So if you are saying that following the Sahaba is shirk, then you are committing shirk because those people were by
themselves Sahaba.
Furthermore, the purified Ahlulbayt of the Prophet includes primarily the wives of the Prophet as clearly mentioned in
the Quran Surah 3:28-34. The Prophet included Ali Fatima, Hasan and Husayn r.anhum in this regard.
Therefore it is you shias who are not following the purified members of the Ahlulbayt because you defame, abuse and
hate the wives of Prophet Muhammad even though Allah said that they are from the Ahlulbayt.
Continue next post.
Like Reply 4 October 26 at 8:53pm

Abu Jaiyana #2.


First of all, I really dont understand how this question has any sort of relevance to the topic of the debate as well as
the presentation I presented. I want to alert the readers of this debate to take notice of this fallacy called REDHERRINGS.
Red Herring: An irrelevant distraction, attempting to mislead an audience by bringing up an unrelated but usually
emotionally loaded issue.
As for the proof that the companions of Prophet Muhammad were chosen by Allah:
Surah 9:100
'And the first forerunners [in the faith] among the Muhajireen and the Ansar and those who followed them with good
conduct Allah is pleased with them and they are pleased with Him, and He has prepared for them gardens beneath
which rivers flow, wherein they will abide forever. That is the great attainment.'

The Muhajireen and the Ansar were Sahaba of the Prophet s.a.w.
Surah 48: 29.
Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah, and THOSE WITH HIM ARE FIRM OF HEART against the unbelievers,
compassionate among themselves; you will see them bowing down, prostrating themselves, seeking grace from Allah
and pleasure; their marks are in their faces because of the effect of prostration; that is their description in the Taurat
and their description in the Injeel; like as seed-produce that puts forth its sprout, then strengthens it, so it becomes
stout and stands firmly on its stem, delighting the sowers that He may enrage the unbelievers on account of them;
Allah has promised those among them who believe and do good, forgiveness and a great reward.
It is beyond reasonable doubt that those who are with the Prophet were the Sahaba, and Allah himself testified on the
loftiness of their faith.
Some of the numerous testimonies of the Prophet s.a.w. about his Sahaba:
1. Sahih Bukhari Volume 5, Book 57, Number 3:
Narrated Abdullah:
The Prophet said, "The best people are those living in my generation, and then those who will follow them, and then
those who will follow the latter.
2. Al-Tirmidhi by Ahmad with three good chains in his Musnad, al-Bukhari in his Tarikh, Al-Suyuti declared it hasan in
his Jami` al-Saghir #1442.
Narrated from Abdallah ibn Mughaffal:
The Prophet said: Allah, Allah! Fear Him with regard to my Sahabah! Do not make them targets after me! Whoever
loves them loves them with his love for me; and whoever hates them hates them with his hatred for me. Whoever
bears enmity for them, bears enmity for me; and whoever bears enmity for me, bears enmity for Allah. Whoever
bears enmity for Allah is about to perish!
3. Sahih Bukhari Volume 5, Book 57, Number 22
Narrated Abu Said:
The Prophet said, "Do not abuse my companions for if any one of you spent gold equal to Uhud (in Allah's Cause) it
would not be equal to a Mud or even a half Mud spent by one of them."
You shia rafida are guilty of what Allah and His Prophet said about the Sahaba.
Like Reply 3 October 26 at 9:02pm

Abu Jaiyana #3.


Again, this is another RED-HERRING Fallacy about the topic of this debate.
How is following the teachings of the Sahaba relevant to asking help from anyone other than Allah in supplications
???
How does this question of Nass Abinal help him in any way, shape, or form negate that calling anyone other than
Allah in supplication is not shirk ???
Anyway, I will answer this irrelevant question.
The answer again is BIG NO! because following the teachings of the Sahaba has nothing to do with the issues of

Tawheed. No Sahaba ever taught that we should believe in more than one God, or that we should call anyone for
help in our supplication, or that we will give the names or the attributes of Allah to any of Allahs creation.
Therefore, following the teachings of the Sahaba can never be shirk, instead following the Sahaba would maintain
your faith in Tawheed.
Once again, define the word shirk Nass Abinal what is shirk in Arabic and what is its sharee meaning?
Like Reply 4 October 26 at 9:03pm

Abu Jaiyana #4
You should have disambiguated your term Nass Abinal in your 4th question. Who is the them there?
If you mean them the Sahaba, then that would be big foolishness! It is so because how on earth logical to follow the
teachings of people who are not born yet???
Your Imams were not born yet during the time of the Sahaba, so how could the Sahaba follow them this is indeed a
very ludicrous idea, with all due respect.
If you mean, Imams Ali, Hasan, and Husayn r.anhum because they were already born during the time of the
Sahaba, then the answer is still BIG NO because those people are themselves, Sahaba.
Moreover, it is illogical for the Sahaba to follow Ali, Hasan, and Husayn r.anhum because aside from they were all
Sahaba, the Prophet s.a.w. was with them, and they were the eye-witnesses to the revelation of the Quran and how
the Prophet explained the Quran and practiced it.
As matter of fact, it was the Sahaba who transmitted the Quran and the Sunnah of the Prophet s.a.w. to us, not your
Imams.
Furthermore, your alleged 12th Imam is Mr. BOGUS because his existence is highly speculative. Even shias dont
have any instructions from your 12th Imam. So who on earth would agree that the Sahaba who existed long before
your Imams could follow the teachings of the Imam.
Your Imam Ali r.a. narrated in Sahih Muslim and in other hadiths which are rated authentic that the Prophet made Mut
ah Haram till the Day of Resurrection, but you dont follow it, you keep on enjoying sex with Mutah until now, and
your Ayatollahs such as Khominie, and others said that you can engage in sex with mutah with countless prostitutes.
So which teachings of the Imams you want us to follow when you yourselves dont follow the teachings of your first
Imam, Ali r.a.?
Lastly, we are challenging you to produce any authentic record of the teachings of the Imams we want to follow it,
where is it written now, in Al Kafi of Kulayni which is a BOOK FULL OF SHIRK, or in Nahjul Balagha a book with NO
ISNAD whatsoever???
See how your irrelevant question has given you a mountain of problem?
Like Reply 2 October 26 at 9:04pm

Abu Jaiyana #5
BIG, BIG YES!!! And CERTAINLY YES!!! You and your ilk who call anyone other than Allah in your supplication are
all MUSHRIKS (polytheists) IN THE LITERAL MEANING OF THE WORD!

Your questions here, aside from mostly irrelevant, dont really help you or negate that you are associating partners to
Allah in your worship because all acts of worship such as Dua or supplications should only be addressed/directed to
Allah alone. However, in your Du, instead of addressing them to Allah alone, you address them to Ali, or Husayn or
any of your Imams who are all SLAVES of Allah
Therefore, I conclude with full conviction and certainty that YOU AND YOUR ILK ARE ALL MUSRIKS BEYOND
REASONABLE DOUBT.
Thank you.
Like Reply 3 October 26 at 9:05pm

Abu Jaiyana REBUTTAL


In my presentation, I did give the definition and Islamic meaning of Shirk....See More
Like Reply 3 October 27 at 12:38am

Abu Jaiyana I also want to mention here is the STRAWMAN FALLACY (false attribution) of Nass Abinal to us Ahlul
Sunnah that we abandon the Ahlulbayt that is a big LIE folks that the people of mutah and the people of taqiya are
propagating.
As a matter of fact, we follow ALL THE MEMBERS of the Ahlulbayt WITHOUT ANY DISCRIMINATION to any one of
them. We love that Ahlulbayt such as the wives of the Prophet, the family of Ali, the Family of Aqeel, the Family of
Jaafar and so on.
On the contrary, the Rafidas, such as Nass Abinal and his ilk, who claim to be the followers of Ahlulbayt ONLY
FOLLOW A SELECTED FEW. They ABUSE the wives of the Prophet, the dont care about the families of Aqeel,
Jaafar and so on.
What is worst than worst is that they call a member of the Ahlulbayt, Jaafar ibn Al Askri, a big LIAR because he
testified that his brother Hassan Al Askari, the shias11th Imam has no son there is no such thing as 12th Imam.
So the Shias call him a LIAR, and they believe on the theory of a man who is not from the Ahlulbayt named Uthman
bin Said or Said bin Uthman that the son of Hasan al Askari is hiding in a tunnel and he knows who are those people
who dont give khums (zakat for the imam) this made their 12th Imam a Mr. BOGUS!!!
So you see, how the shias are giving us the FALSE IMPRESSION that they follow the Ahlulbayt and FALSELY
ACCUSE the Ahlul sunnah to be not followers of the Ahlulbayt.
We follow and love the Ahlulbayt but we dont accept anything that is falsely attributed to them. We have the
authentic narrations of Ali, Fatima, Hasan, Husayn, Zainal Abideen, Imam Jafar As-Sadiq, ect peace be upon them
all, and we follow them wholeheartedly.
We reject hadiths about the Prophet if they are not authentic, but does that mean we dont love the Prophet s.a.w.? I
dont think so, and only a STUPID person who is SEVERELY INTOXICATED with TAQIYA and MUTAH thinks that
way.
Shias utterly reject the hadiths of Ali r.a. in Sahih Bukhari and Sahih Muslim does that mean that they dont love Ali
anymore???
So the hypocrisy and taqiya of the shias here are badly exposed.

Like Reply 3 October 27 at 12:39am

Abu Jaiyana Now, we go back to the main issue of the debate.


Nass Abinal cited examples from the Quran and from the Sunnah as evidence for the permissibility of calling anyone
other than Allah for help in Dua but it turns out that his supposed evidences are actually evidences against his claim.
He cited 12:98 in which the Brothers of Prophet Yusof ask their father to ask for forgiveness for them.
Folks, the ayah is very clear to everyone to understand that the Father of the Yusof and his brothers were STILL Alive
at that time, and he was still living with them.
In fact, the verse even quoted the response of their father, who was Prophet Qaqoob, to them.
THEY SAID: "O OUR FATHER! ASK FOR US FORGIVENESS FOR OUR SINS, FOR WE WERE TRULY AT
FAULT."
HE SAID: "SOON WILL I ASK MY LORD FOR FORGIVENESS FOR YOU: FOR HE IS INDEED OFT-FORGIVING,
MOST MERCIFUL."
Nass Abinal evaded the simple question I asked.
* When the brothers of Yusof. A.s. did this - was their father still living or had already passed away?
The question is answerable by yes or no ( yes, their father was still living at that time, or no, their father had already
passed away that time).
See the answer of Nass Abinal to my question, it is 1 billion light years away from being relevant.
See how the Quran exposes the misguidance of the shia. Their so-called evidence from the Quran are actually clear
refutations for them.
Like Reply 4 October 27 at 12:42am

Abu Jaiyana He also cited a hadith from Sahih Al Bukhari in which Umar r.a. made Tawasul with the uncle of the
Prophet Al Abbas r.a.
Read what Umar r.a. said:
He used to say, "O Allah! We used to ask our Prophet to invoke You for rain, and You would bless us with rain, and
now we ask his uncle to invoke You for rain. O Allah ! Bless us with rain." And so it would rain.
He said that they used to ask the Prophet to invoke rain before. That was when the Prophet was still alive. During the
Caliphate of Umar r.a. the Prophet has already died.
Since the Prophet has already passed away, Umar r.a. made the Tawasul with the Prophets uncle Al Abbas because
Al Abbas is still living.
Think about this folks, had it been persmissible to make tawasul with those who already passed away, Umar would
have asked the Prophet instead of Al Abbas because there is no doubt that the Prophet is far more better than Al
Abbas r.a.

Nass Abinal is not reading the text of the hadith properly, I supposed.
Nass Abinal also EVADED my question about the hadith he cited regarding Umar making tawasul with Al Abbas who
was still living at that time.
* How does this tawasul prove that calling people who have passed away for help is permissible?
See again the answer of Nass Abinal to my question, it is 1 billion light years away from being relevant.
So once again, the shiassupposed evidence for the permissibility of their SHIRK is EXPOSED!
Like Reply 4 October 27 at 12:44am

Abu Jaiyana Nass Abinal cited 2:154 in which Allah told the Muslims that those who were slain in Jihad are still
living. I already have explained that living here means living in Jannah, not living in this world. I also have warned the
readers about the trick of the shia in this verse
They will play on you on the word dead they would say that their saints are not dead therefore it is okay to ask
help from them.
21: 35. Every soul must taste of death
Even Prophet Muhammad would die and has died.
39:29 Verily, you (O Muhammad SAW) will die and verily, they (too) will die.
Nass Abinal admitted that the verse means that they are not living in this world but in BARZAKH, thank you! And to
be more specific, they are living in Jannah according to many tafsirs and hadith of the Prophet s.a.w.
Therefore, that verse can never be an evidence for the permissibility of calling someone other than Allah for help in
supplications.
Like Reply 4 October 27 at 12:45am

Abu Jaiyana Another verse used by Nass Abinal is Surah 5:35 which says seek any means to approach unto Him
I asked Nass Abinal to produce any authentic practice or instruction from the Prophet that seeking any means to
approach Allah is by asking help from someone in Dua thats all.
Nass Abinal cant produce any, not one evidence from the Sunnah of the Prophet in which the Prophet asked help
from other than Allah in his supplications, or that the Prophet taught or instructed any of his companions, not even
Abubakr, Umar, Uthman, or Ali r.anhum.
On the contrary, all supplications taught by the Prophet were all calling Allah alone, and no one else. Example:
The Prophet's Recommendation Allah bless and greet him - to Ibn `Abbas in Which He Describes the Habits A
Believer Must Have With Allah Almighty
Al-Tirmidhi narrated from Ibn `Abbas - Allah be well-pleased with both of them! - that he said:
"I was [riding] behind the Prophet one day and he said to me:
'O my boy! I shall teach you certain words. Keep Allah [with you], and He shall keep you. Keep Allah [with you], and
you shall find Him facing you. IF YOU ASK FOR SOMETHING, ASK ALLAH. IF YOU SEEK HELP, SEEK IT FROM

ALLAH. Know with certainty that if the entire Community gather together to support you, THEY CAN BENEFIT YOU
NOTHING except in WHAT ALLAH HAS FOREORDAINED FOR YOU; and if they gather together in order to harm
you, THEY CAN HARM YOU IN NOTHING except in what Allah HAS FOREORDAINED AGAINST YOU. The quills
have been raised and the records are dry.'"
Why would any SANE Muslim supplicate to someone other than Allah when Allah said in the Quran:
2:186. And when MY SERVANTS ask you concerning Me, then surely I am very near; I ANSWER THE PRAYER OF
THE SUPPLIANT WHEN HE CALLS ON ME, so they should answer My call and believe in Me that they may walk in
the right way.
So if Allah is very near, and he said that he would answer our supplications when we make dua to Him, and He is the
All-hearer and the All-knowing, why should we even think of calling someone instead of Allah in our dua???
Are those whom we would call know and understand better than Allah this is total stupidity indeed. Only people who
are ignorant about the oneness of Allah in worship and in His names and attributes do this absolutely illogical form of
worship.
Like Reply 7 October 27 at 12:47am

Abu Jaiyana I asked Nass Abinal about when would Allah grant the intercession
The Prophet can intercede, as well as the martyrs, the Quran, Fasting, etc. there is NO PROBLEM at all. However,
my question is:
*When would Allah grant the intercession to anyone he wills is it in this world or is it in the hereafter?
Im asking, WHEN, but Nass Abinal is again, gave a very vague and irrelevant answer.
The correct answer folks is that Allah will grant the power of intercession to the Prophet, martyrs, Quran, etc, ON THE
DAY OF JUDGEMENT Not in this world.
2: 48. Then guard yourselves against a Day (of Judgment) when one soul shall not avail another nor shall
intercession be accepted for her, nor shall compensation be taken from her, nor shall anyone be helped (from
outside).
2:254. O ye who believe! Spend out of (the bounties) We have provided for you, before the DAY comes when no
bargaining (will avail), nor friendship nor INTERCESSION. Those who reject Faith they are the wrong-doers.
From the Sunnah, Sahih Bukhari Volume 6, Book 60, Number 3 and other hadiths also say that intercession would be
granted on the Day of Judgment.
Therefore Allah would only allow people to intercede ON THE DAY OF JUDGMENT, not in this world Nass Abinal.
What is the point here? The point here is that when anyone calls help from other than Allah in his/her supplication
such as those who have passed away like Ali or Husayn, they CAN NEVER INTERCEDE for them here in this world,
therefore their supplication is totally USELESS, aside from being an act of Shirk.
Like Reply 6 October 27 at 12:48am

Abu Jaiyana Summary:


1. All the ayat and hadiths used by Nass Abinal to support the permissibility of calling for help in Dua from anyone

other than Allah are DEFINITELY REFUTED, and at the same time those ayat and hadiths are in support for the
IMPERMISSIBILITY of calling for help in Dua from anyone other than Allah.
2. I also argued here that Nass Abinal DID NOT GIVE US THE LINGUISTIC DEFINITION OF SHIRK AS WELL AS
ITS SHAREE MEANING; he just kept on saying this and that is shirk without defining the word shirk.
3. Nass Abinal also FAILED TO PROVIDE ANY EVIDENCE FROM THE SUNNAH of Prophet Muhammad which
teaches us to call for help in from anyone other than Allah in our supplications. On the contrary, clear and numerous
evidences from the Sunnah of the Prophet which teach us that we should only call help from Allah in our prayer
and/or supplications.
4. Nass Abinal also DIDNT SHOW US ANY AUTHENTIC EVIDENCE FROM ALI OR HUSAYN R.A TEACHING
THEM TO CALL ON THOSE WHO PASSED AWAY FOR HELP IN THEIR DUA this is purely shia innovated form
of worship.
5. Nass Abinal Also did failed to give us ANY AUTHENTIC EVIDENCE FROM THE SUNNAH THAT IT IS ALLOWED
TO CALL FOR HELP FROM THOSE WHO ALREADY HAVE PASSED AWAY.
what he has given us so far are asking help from those who are still living in this world.
My arguments in my presentation still stand and untouched.
A. The linguistic and Share meaning of shirk means ascribing a partner or rival to Allaah in Lordship (ruboobiyyah),
WORSHIP (Ibadah) or in His names and attributes.
B. Du (supplication) in Islam is an ACT OF WORSHIP according to the Quran and the Sunnah.
C. Acts of worship should only be addressed/directed to Allah ALONE.
D. Therefore, calling Ali or Husayn who already have passed away instead of or alongside with Allah in supplication is
Shirk.
Thank you.
Like Reply 7 October 27 at 12:50am

Nass Abinal My rebuttal


In the Name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful
Say: This is my way: I call to Allah, I and those who follow me being certain, and glory be to Allah, and I am not one
of the polytheists. 12:108
When Abu Jaiyana said he has refuted all the Qur'anic verses and the Sunnah I have produced to support my
assertions, it only means he denied or disbelieved these verses.
He tried, albeit it was in vain, to prove that calling or making du'a to the Imams, peace be upon them, to seek their
shafa'a / intercession before Allah, the Glorified, the Exalted, is shirk and that the Shi'a / Followers of the Imams,
peace be upon them, are Mushrikuun / Polytheists.
He underpinned his assertion on the following verses:
1. Worship Allah and join none with Him in worship,.... 4:36.

Comment:
This verse is not applicable to the followers of the Ahlulbayt, peace be upon them, because We worship Allah, the
Glorified, the Exalted, by following the Right Path of worshiping Him which is the Path of His blessed Servants, the
Messenger, peace be upon him and his family, and the Imams, peace be upon them. We have not joined anyone to
Him in our worship.
2. And of mankind are some who take (for worship) others besides Allah as rivals (to Allah). They love them as they
love Allah. But those who believe, love Allah more (than anything else)....2:165
This is also the result of following people not favored or blessed by Allah, the Glorified, the Exalted, with guidance,
purity, knowledge, faith. When the former Mushrikuun became the role models and the purified ones were murdered
one after the other and their teachings were hidden from the people, this verse is fulfilled against the people.
He also quoted the following verses in support of his claim:
51: 56 "And I created not the Jinns and men except that they should worship Me (Alone)."
1: 5. Thee do we serve and Thee do we beseech for help. (Shakir)
1: 5. Thee do we worship, and Thine aid we seek. (Yusuf Ali)
1: 5. Thee (alone) we worship; Thee (alone) we ask for help. (Pickthal)
The above verses have been sufficiently addressed in the explanation of 2:165 and 4:36.
46:5. And who is in greater error than he who calls besides Allah upon those that will not answer him till the day of
resurrection and they are heedless of their call?
10:106. And DO NOT CALL BESIDES Allah on that which can neither benefit you nor harm you, for if you do then
surely you will in that case be of the unjust.
10:107. And if Allah should afflict you with harm, then there is none to remove it but He; and if He intends good to you
there is none to repel His grace; He brings it to whom He pleases of His servants; and He is the Forgiving, the
Merciful
7:194. Lo! those on whom ye call beside Allah are SLAVES LIKE UNTO YOU. Call on them now, and let them
answer you, if ye are truthful!
The above verses do not apply to the Muslims who used to seek the intercession of the Messenger, peace be upon
him, the Imams, peace be upon them, and other awliyaa Allaah / Friends of Allah, the Glorified, the Exalted.
Yes, the Qur'an also says:
And your Lord said: "Invoke Me, [i.e. believe in My Oneness (Islamic Monotheism)] (and ask Me for anything) I will
respond to your (invocation). Verily! .....40:60
Du'a is a form of worship.
However, this and the other verses did not abrogate nor contradict the verses I have relied upon to prove my
opposition to the assertion of Abu Jaiyana.
These verses are the following:

1. We sent no Messenger, but to be obeyed by Allah's Leave. If they (hypocrites), when they had been unjust to
themselves, had come to you (Muhammad SAW) and begged Allah's Forgiveness, and the Messenger had begged
forgiveness for them: indeed, they would have found Allah All-Forgiving (One Who accepts repentance), Most
Merciful.
(English - Mohsin Khan) 4:64
And those whom they invoke instead of Him have no power of intercession; except those who bear witness to the
truth (i.e. believed in the Oneness of Allah, and obeyed His Orders), and they know (the facts about the Oneness of
Allah).43:86
In 4:64, the hypocrites were disinclined to come to the Messenger, peace be upon him and his family, to seek his
intercession for the forgiveness of their sins. Obviously, they will not call on the Messenger, peace be upon him and
his family, after his death as this is something they did not do while he was still alive. Abu Jaiyana may be following
the footsteps of the hypocriites on this matter.
In 43:86, We are being told that there are idols or people besides Allah, the Glorified, the Exalted, who are being
called upon for intercession but these idols or people have no such power except those who bear witness to the truth
and they know.
This means that calling the people who belong to the exception for their intercession is not prohibited, much less
shirk.
Intercession after Allah's permission is a basic Islamic teaching.
...............Who is he that can intercede with Him except with His Permission?................ [This Verse 2:255 is called
Ayat-ul-Kursi.]
It is now doubly clear that those who bear witness to the truth and who know the truth 43:86 are given permission to
intercede and they can be called upon and this is also a worship of Allah, the Glorified, the Exalted. Unlike those who
have no power of intercession who are being called upon by the disbelievers which made them polytheists.
As already mentioned, the conclusion of Abu Jaiyana that the Shi'a / Followers of the 12 Imams, peace be upon them
all, are polytheists because they call on dead persons is based on wrong premises and therefore without any merit at
all.
The verses 4:64, 43:86 and 2:255 do not contain provisos limiting their validity or application to intercessors who are
alive in this World and not dead. Any attempt to put conditions to these verses is tampering with the sacred text
condemned by Allah, the Glorified, the Exalted.
To be continued.
Like Reply 7 October 27 at 4:11pm

Nass Abinal Continuation of my rebuttal.


In my presentation and cross examination, I have proven that the proposition of Abu Jaiyana does not hold water at
all. He accuses the monotheists of polytheism forgetting his actual status as among the Mushrikuun / Polytheists.
He brushed aside the Qur'anic verses, 10:35, 27:59 and 28:68, declaring that those who do not follow the guided and
chosens ones of Allah, the Glorified, the Exalted, are actually polytheists.
To Allah, the Glorified, the Exalted, belongs both the al wilayah at takwiniyyah / authority over creation and al wilayah
tashri'iyyah / authority over legislation.

Before I demonstrate these two authorities from the Qur'an, we must state on record that Islam is a way of life, a
deen, brought by the Messengers of Allah, the Glorified, the Exalted, and led by the Imams, peace be upon them,
after the Messenger, peace be upon him and his family.
This is not a religion of the so-called Sahaabat, a word not found in the Qur'an and Qamus.
I would like to ask Abu Jaiyana where did he get the plural Sahaabat and singular Sahaabi? Is it in the Qur'an or
Sunnah or Qamus?
In the Qur'an, these two wilayah are put one after the other to emphasize the Lordship and Godhead of Allah, the
Glorified, the Exalted.
Allah, the Glorified, the Exalted, reminds the people of His authority over creation to declare His authority over
legislation. In other verses, He declared His authority over legislation and reminds the people of His authority over
creation. This is were Shirk / Polytheism comes in. Those who do not agree to the authority of Allah, the Glorified, the
Exalted, to choose are mushrikuun / polytheists.
Why?
Because they believe that He is the only Creator but they do not believe that He is the only Legislator or the One Who
chooses.
Examples:
Say: "Is there of your (Allah's so-called) partners one that originates the creation and then repeats it?" Say: "Allah
originates the creation and then He repeats it. Then how are you deluded away (from the truth)?"10:34
Say: "Is there of your (Allah's so-called) partners one that guides to the truth?" Say: "It is Allah Who guides to the
truth. Is then He, Who gives guidance to the truth, more worthy to be followed, or he who finds not guidance (himself)
unless he is guided? Then, what is the matter with you? How judge you?10:35
Say (O Muhammad SAW): "Praise and thanks be to Allah, and peace be on His slaves whom He has chosen (for His
Message)! Is Allah better, or (all) that you ascribe as partners (to Him)?" (Of course, Allah is Better). 27:59
Is not He (better than your gods) Who created the heavens and the earth, and sends down for you water (rain) from
the sky, whereby We cause to grow wonderful gardens full of beauty and delight? It is not in your ability to cause the
growth of their trees. Is there any ilah (god) with Allah? Nay, but they are a people who ascribe equals (to Him)! 27:60
To be continued.
Like Reply 7 October 27 at 4:17pm

Nass Abinal Continuation of my rebuttal


And your Lord creates whatsoever He wills and chooses, no choice have they (in any matter). Glorified be Allah, and
exalted above all that they associate as partners (with Him).
(English - Mohsin Khan) 28:68
And your Lord knows what their breasts conceal, and what they reveal.
(English - Mohsin Khan) 28:69
And He is Allah; La ilaha illa Huwa (none has the right to be worshipped but He). His is all praise, in the first (i.e. in

this world) and in the last (i.e. in the Hereafter). And for Him is the Decision, and to Him shall you (all) be returned.
(English - Mohsin Khan) 28:70
Say (O Muhammad SAW): "Tell me! If Allah made night continuous for you till the Day of Resurrection, who is an ilah
(a god) besides Allah who could bring you light? Will you not then hear?"
(English - Mohsin Khan) 28:71
Those who think that they are Monotheists because they believe that Allah, the Glorified, the Exalted, is the Creator
but disagree with His legislation are the Mushrikuun. They have destroyed their Tawheed al Uluhiyya and Tawheed
ar Rububiyya.
In view of the above verses, how could the more than 140,000 Ashaabun / Companions be the guides to the Truth
when most of them needed the guided of the Messenger, peace be upon him and his family, and Imam 'Ali, on him be
peace, the chosen ones of Allah, the Glorified, the Exalted, among them?
Musa, on him be peace, was given the Tawrat and the 12 Naqeeba / A'imma / Ummah then some of his people
believed while some of them disbelieved.
'Eesa, on him be peace, was given the Injeel and the Hawariyuun and some of his people believed while some of
them disbelieved.
Muhammad, peace be upon him and his family, was given the Qur'an and the 12 Khulafaa / A'imma / Khayra Ummah
/ Ummah Wasatan / Ummah Muslimatan / Ahlulbayt and some of his people believed while some of them
disbelieved.
In summary:
1. The Shi'ah, in making du'a or in calling the Messenger, peace be upon him and his family, and the Imams, peace
be upon them, to seek their intercession with Allah, the Glorified, the Exalted, are not Mushrikuun. This is permitted
by the Islamic Law.
2. Abu Jaiyana and his ilks, by lumping the purified Ahlulbayt, peace be upon them, with all the converts to Islam,
failed to believe in the authority of Allah, the Glorified, the Exalted, to choose, Who chose the family of the
Messenger, peace be upon him and his family, and therefore they are committing shirk or polytheism.
3. I have given the Qur'anic verses on the different intercessors in this life but Abu Jaiyana just swept them under the
rag of his pride and proudly declared that intercession will only happen in the hereafter or on the day of judgment.
4. Abu Jaiyana is telling us the because the 12 Disciples of 'Eesa, peace be on him, were his Companions, by
following them, the people have followed all his Companions who must be the best of people after him which is totally
against the narrations of the Qur'an and the Sunnah.
5. In the same manner, since the 12 Imams / Naqeeb / Ummah for the Bani Israel were among the Ashaab /
Companions of Musa, on him be peace, those who followed them have followed the Companions of Musa, on him be
peace.
6. Any narration that comes from the Imams, on them be peace, are disbelieved outright because Bukhari or Muslim
did not write them thereby casting aside the traditions of the two weighty trusts / hadith al thaqalayn and the tradition
of the ark / hadith as safiina of Nuh, on him be peace, which can be found in so many books of the Ahlus Sunnah wal
Jama'ah.
This is a strange presentation that defies common sense and logic.

Salaamun 'alaykum wa rahmatollaahi wa barakaatoh.


Like Reply 10 October 27 at 5:08pm

Nass Abinal ...needed the guidance...


Like Reply 2 October 28 at 5:42am

Abu Jaiyana Sorry for the delay. I have just finished editing our updated Revenue Code.
Like Reply Yesterday at 7:30am

Abu Jaiyana CONCLUSION:


I would like to make a short rebuttal to the argument/evidences added by Nass Abinal.
Nass Abinal distorted the meaning of the ayah 40:60 just to give a LOOPHOLE to their polytheistic practice of asking
help from those who have passed away.
This is what Nass Abinal has posted:
And your Lord said: "Invoke Me, [i.e. believe in My Oneness (Islamic Monotheism)] (and ask Me for anything) I will
respond to your (invocation). Verily! .....40:60
You see how the rafida distort the meaning of the Quran. INVOKE means to ask and NOT to believe. The meaning of
the word invoke is so obvious in the context of the ayah. If you remove the addition of Nass Abinal in the
parentheses, Nass Abinals argument becomes OUT OF ORDER:
"Invoke Me I will respond to your invocation The Arabic text is very clear

And the verse continues but those who are too arrogant to serve Me will surely find themselves in Hell - in
humiliation!"
So the verse is NOT TALKING about believing in the Oneness of Allah. It is talking about CALLING ALLAH in our
prayers or supplications.
Like Reply 3 Yesterday at 7:36am

Abu Jaiyana Nass Abinal also quoted 43:86 that those who bear witness to the truth knowingly can intercede. Yes,
some people may be granted by Allah the power to intercede, and this is not limited to the Ahlulbayt as the verse
says.
I have affirmed this in my rebuttal, and I already have provided the reference of the ayat and hadiths which say that
the intercession of the Prophet s.a.w. would be granted by Allah on the DAY OF JUDGMENT. Surah 2: 48, 2:254,
Sahih Bukhari Volume 6, Book 60, Number 3
The point is, does this POWER OF INTERCESSION EVER MEANT THAT WE CAN CALL, INVOKE, ASK FOR
HELP IN OUR PRAYESR OR SUPPLICATIONS FROM PEOPLE WHO ALREADY HAVE PASSED AWAY???

The clear answer in NO, and there is NO EVIDENCE, not even one authentic evidence from the Sunnah, let alone
from the Quran, to support it. All ayat, and hadiths cited by Nass Abinal in support of their polytheistic prayer is all
about asking help, tawasul, from a person who is still living in this world, NOT from those who have passed away.
Like Reply 2 Yesterday at 7:38am

Abu Jaiyana 1. DID NASS ABINAL EVER PROVIDE UNAMBIGUOUS AYAT FROM THE QURAN THAT WE CAN
CALL FOR HELP OTHER THAN ALLAH IN OUR PRAYERS OR SUPPLICATIONS??
The answer is BIG NO he presented to us are stories of previous nations asking help of a person who was STILL
LIVING IN THIS WORLD at that time such as in the case of Prophet Yaqoob and his children.
2. DID NASS ABINAL EVER PROVIDE UNAMBIGUOUS EVIDENCE FROM THE SUNNAH THAT WE CAN CALL
FOR HELP OTHER THAN ALLAH IN OUR PRAYERS OR SUPPLICATIONS??
The answer is BIG NO he presented to us the story of Caliph Umar asking help, making tawasul with Al Abbas who
was STILL LIVING IN THIS WORLD at that time.
Like Reply 2 Yesterday at 7:38am

Abu Jaiyana 3. DO WE HAVE EVIDENCES FROM THE QURAN THAT TEACHES US TO INVOKE ALLAH ALONE
IN OUR PRAYERS OR SUPPLICATION?
The answer is BIG YES 1: 5.

Thee (alone) we worship; Thee (alone) we ask for help. (Pickthal)
2:186. And when MY SERVANTS ask you concerning Me, then surely I am very near; I ANSWER THE PRAYER OF
THE SUPPLIANT WHEN HE CALLS ON ME, so they should answer My call and believe in Me that they may walk in
the right way.
4. DO WE HAVE EVIDENCES FROM THE SUNNAH THAT TEACHES US TO INVOKE ALLAH ALONE IN OUR
PRAYERS OR SUPPLICATION?
The answer is BIG YES
Ibn `Abbas r.a. said:
"I was [riding] behind the Prophet one day and he said to me:
'O my boy! .. IF YOU ASK FOR SOMETHING, ASK ALLAH. IF YOU SEEK HELP, SEEK IT FROM ALLAH. Know
with certainty that if the entire Community gather together to support you, THEY CAN BENEFIT YOU NOTHING
except in WHAT ALLAH HAS FOREORDAINED FOR YOU; and if they gather together in order to harm you, THEY
CAN HARM YOU IN NOTHING except in what Allah HAS FOREORDAINED AGAINST YOU.
Like Reply 2 Yesterday at 7:39am

Abu Jaiyana 5. IS ASKING HELP FROM SOMEONE FOR HELP IN OUR PRAYERS OR INVOCATION SHIRK?
The answer is BIG YES!
This argument still stands:
1. Shirk means ascribing a partner or rival to Allaah in Lordship (ruboobiyyah), WORSHIP (Ibadah) or in His names
and attributes.

2. Acts of worship should be addressed/directed to Allah alone (4: 36. And serve Allah and do not associate anything
with Him)
3. Prayers or supplications are acts of worship (The Prophet ( )said : Supplication (du'a') is itself the worship. ")
4. Therefore, asking help from anyone for help in our prayers or invocation 100% SHIRK IN WORSHIP (uluhiya).
May Allah protect us from the shia, and from any their polytheistic beliefs and practices.
Jazakallaho khair.
Like Reply 3 Yesterday at 7:40am

Nass Abinal This is my conclusion for this debate.


In the Name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful
The Qur'an says:
And if your Lord had pleased, surely all those who are in the earth would have believed, all of them; will you then
force men till they become believers? 10:99
And it is not for a soul to believe except by Allah's permission; and He casts uncleanness on those who will not
understand. 10:100
It is never our intention to compel Abu Jaiyana or anyone to agree with us and believe in our arguments.
Be that as it may, we need to endeavor to make our brothers and sisters in Islam understand our Islamic views.
The clear examples of how the Qur'an deals with shafa'a / intercession are the knowledge of the Unseen, Kingdom
and Guardianship.
In several verses the knowledge of the unseen belongs to Allah, the Glorified, the Exalted, alone. But in other verses,
it is shown that He gave this knowledge to a Messenger He has chosen so that it could be delivered to its recepients.
And with Him are the keys of the unseen treasures-- none knows them but He;..... 6:59
The Knower of the unseen! so He does not reveal His secrets to any, Except to him whom He chooses as an apostle;
for surely He makes a guard to march before him and after him, So that He may know that they have truly delivered
the messages of their Lord, and He encompasses what is with them and He records the number of all things. 72:2628
Abu Jaiyana will deny the possibility that the knowledge of the Unseen has been given to the Imams, on them be
peace, through the Messenger, peace be upon him and his family. The Messenger, peace be upon him and his
family, said:
"I am the City of Knowledge and 'Ali is its gate"
And say: (All) praise is due to Allah, Who has not taken a son and Who has not a partner in the kingdom, and Who
has not a wali / helper to save Him from disgrace; and proclaim His greatness magnifying (Him). 17:111
The above verse says that Allah, the Glorified, the Exalted, does not take a partner in the kingdom and a wali or
guardian out of weakness.

But in the following verses, Allah, the Glorified, the Exalted, gave the great kingdom to the family of Ibrahim, peace be
upon him, and gave the wilayah / guardianship to some believers.
Say: O Allah, Master of the Kingdom! Thou givest the kingdom to whomsoever Thou pleasest and takest away the
kingdom from whomsoever Thou pleasest,..... 3:26
Or do they envy the people for what Allah has given them of His grace? But indeed We have given to Ibrahim's
children the Book and the wisdom, and We have given them a grand kingdom. 4:54
Only Allah is your Wali and His Apostle and those who believe, those who keep up prayers and pay the poor-rate
while they bow. 5:55
By declaring as Shirk / Polytheism the practice of calling or addressing the Messenger, peace be upon him and his
family, to seek his shafa'a / intercession before Allah, the Glorified, the Exalted, Abu Jaiyana has given his fatwa that
all Sunni and Shi'a Muslims are Mushrikuun / Polytheists because both Sunni and Shi'a are doing this practice. That
is why I said at the beginning of this debate that Abu Jaiyana does not represent the Ahlus Sunnah. He represents
the takfiri cult running berserk in the Middle East and beyond.
According to the Islamic Law, both Shi'a and Sunni agreed that the actions of the Muslims are seen in the light of
whether the action is Haram, Waajib, Mustahab, Makruh or Mubah.
Why is it the during the life of the Messenger, peace be upon him and his family, the Muslims were exhorted by Allah,
the Glorified, the Exalted, to come to him and seek his prayers for the forgiveness of their sins 4:64 but after he died,
the verses prohibiting calling the idols are applied to him?
Is he now an idol or a partner of Allah, the Glorified, the Exalted?
Anyway, it is only the believers who will agree with Allah, the Glorified, the Exalted, when He commanded them not to
say or think that those who have been killed in the path of Allah, the Glorified, the Exalted, as dead. They are living
but we cannot perceive or understand it. That is, the defect lies within us.
The Messenger, peace be upon him and his family, Fatima, 'Ali, Hasan, Husayn and the rest of the Imams, peace be
upon them all, were killed in the path of Allah, the Glorified , Exalted.
If the Messenger, peace be upon him and his family, is dead, then why is it that all the Muslims, Sunni, Shi'a and
Wahabi, are saying in their prayers: As salaamu 'alayka ayyuhan nabbiyyu wa rahmatollaahi wa barakaatoh?
Abu Jaiyana has a problem with my being a Filipino representing the Iranian Islam in the Philippines. Iranian Islam is
testified by Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him and his family, as per narrations of Bukhari and Muslim but his
Islam was established by a British spy Hempher in 1737. Muhammad bin AbdulWahab was the founder of the
Wahabi religion but his own father and brother gave Fatwa against him that he was acting against Islam by calling
other Muslims as Kafir.
To be continued.
Like Reply 7 Yesterday at 11:45am Edited

Nass Abinal Continuation of my conclusion.


And say: The truth has come and the falsehood has vanished; surely falsehood is a vanishing (thing). 17:81
After I have destroyed and rendered null the proposition of Abu Jaiyana, the following verses and narrations proved

beyond doubt that those who do not follow the chosen ones of Allah, the Glorified, the Exalted, are the disbelievers
and polytheists.
But no! by your Lord! they do not believe (in reality) until they make you a judge of that which has become a matter of
disagreement among them, and then do not find any straitness in their hearts as to what you have decided and
submit with entire submission. 4:65
And if your Lord had pleased He would certainly have made people a single nation, and they shall continue to differ.
11:118
Except those on whom your Lord has mercy; and for this did He create them; and the word of your Lord is fulfilled:
Certainly I will fill hell with the jinn and the men, all together.
11:119
Say: I am only a mortal like you; it is revealed to me that your god is one Allah, therefore whoever hopes to meet his
Lord, he should do good deeds, and not join any one in the service of his Lord. 18:110
And your Lord creates and chooses whom He pleases; to choose is not theirs; glory be to Allah, and exalted be He
above what they associate (with Him). 28:68
And your Lord knows what their breasts conceal and what they manifest. 28:69
Allah, the Glorified, the Exalted, did choose the Messenger, peace be upon and his family, and his purified Ahlulbayt,
peace be upon them.
Narrations:
'A'isha reported that Allah's Apostle ( )went out one norning wearing a striped cloak of the black camel's hair that
there came Hasan b. 'Ali. He wrapped him under it, then came Husain and he wrapped him under it along with the
other one (Hasan). Then came Fatima and he took her under it, then came 'Ali and he also took him under it and then
said: Allah only desires to take away any uncleanliness from you, O people of the household, and purify you
(thorough purifying)
Reference: Sahih Muslim 2424
In-book reference: Book 44, Hadith 91
......(The third occasion is this) when the (following) verse was revealed:" Let us summon our children and your
children." Allah's Messenger ( )called 'Ali, Fitima, Hasan and Husain and said: O Allah, they are my family.
Sahih Muslim
Reference: Sahih Muslim 2404 d (The Book of the Merits of the Companions)
In-book reference: Book 44, Hadith 50
Narrated Umm Salamah: "The Prophet ( )put a garment over Al-Hasan, Al-Hussain, 'Ali and Fatimah, then he
said: 'O Allah, these are the people of my house and the close ones, so remove the Rijs from them and purify them
thoroughly." So Umm Salamah said: 'And am I with them, O Messenger of Allah?' He said: "You are upon good."'
Narrated 'Ali bin Husain: from his father, from his grandfather, 'Ali bin Abi Talib: "The Prophet ( )took Hasan and
Husain by the hand and said: 'Whoever loves me and loves these two, and their father and mother, he shall be with
me in my level on the Day of Judgement."
English reference: Vol. 1, Book 46, Hadith 3733

Arabic reference: Book 49, Hadith 4098


Sa'd reported Allah's Apostle ( )as saying to 'Ali: Aren't you satisfied with being unto me what Aaron was unto
Moses?
Sahih Muslim
Reference: Sahih Muslim 2404 e (The Book of the Merits of the Companions)
In-book reference: Book 44, Hadith 51
Narrated Hubshi bin Junadah: that the Messenger of Allah ( )said: "'Ali is from me and I am from 'Ali. And none
should represent me except myself or 'Ali."
English reference: Vol. 1, Book 46, Hadith 3719
Arabic reference: Book 49, Hadith 4085
Narrated Al-Miswar bin Makhrama: Allah's Messenger ( )said, "Fatima is a part of me, and he who makes her
angry, makes me angry."
Reference: Sahih al-Bukhari 3714
In-book reference:Book 62, Hadith 64
Narrated Zaid bin Arqam: that the Messenger of Allah ( )said to 'Ali, Fatimah, Al-Hasan and Al-Husain: "I am at
war with whoever makes war with you, and peace for whoever makes peace with you."
English reference: Vol. 1, Book 46, Hadith 3870
Arabic reference: Book 49, Hadith 4244
Abu Bakr heard all these verses and narrations and then he disbelieved them by declaring that those who worship
Muhammad should know the Muhammad has died. As if there were people who were worshiping Muhammad, peace
be upon him and his family, then he took the Khilafah.
Now, Abu Jaiyana, is saying that the Shi'a and the Sunni are worshipping Muhammad, peace be upon him and his
family, because they are asking the Messenger, peace be upon him and his family, to intercede in their behalf before
Allah, the Glorified, the Exalted.
Abu Bakr and Abu Jaiyana only mean that tthose who are following Muhammad, peace upon him and his family, and
approaching Allah, the Glorified, the Exalted, through Muhammad, peace be upon him and his family, and the Imams,
peace be upon them, are Mushrikuun, which is a blatant lie.
Alhamdulillaahi rabbil 'aalameen.
Salaamun 'alaykum wa rahmatollaahi wa barakaatoh.
Like Reply 7 Yesterday at 10:52am Edited

Nass Abinal The debate is now officially finished.


It is up to the readers to decide.
Like Reply 8 Yesterday at 11:17am

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