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Difference between recognizing rigpa & realizing emptiness?

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Re: Difference between recognizing rigpa & realizing emptiness?

(#p56056)
byAndrew108SunSep11,201111:53pm
I don't think the question was really answered correctly.

So politely I will give my answer to what really can only be experienced.
The way Rigpa is defined is as selforiginated intrinsic awareness. Selforiginated is the same
as saying unborn. Unborn describes the true nature of mind and 'unborn' here is emptiness or
dharmakaya. Rigpa and it's unborn nature are inseparable. Can't have one without the other.
This unity of awareness and emptiness is also called the path of selfliberation otherwise
known as Dzogchen. A genuine experience of emptiness and a genuine experience of rigpa are
the same this experience is glimpsed during direct transmission from teacher to student.
Top

(#p56061)
byVirgoMonSep12,20111:01am
Andrew108 wrote:
. A genuine experience of emptiness and a genuine experience of rigpa are the
same this experience is glimpsed during direct transmission from teacher to
student.
Hi Andrew,
As I understand it (open to correction):
Actually, the experience of emptiness and the experience of rigpa are not the same.
Realization of the emptiness of persons is the beginning of the Aryan stages on the Hinayana
path. Using the realization of the emptiness of persons as the catalyst, they traverse through
four stages, abandoning gross afflictions along the way. The realization of the emptiness of
all phenomena is the beginning of the Stages of the Bodhisattva path the Firsth Bhumi.
There is no realization of emptiness beyong these two types. Rigpa contains understanding of
the emptiness of all phenomena but it is not limited simply to an experience of emptiness,
which would leave it equivalent to the First Bhumi on the Bodhisattva path. It is much more
profound than that.
http://dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?f=48&t=5261&p=56064#p56064
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I hope this helps.

Kevin
Top

(#p56063)
byDechenNorbuMonSep12,20111:14am
You know fellows, although this discussion is quite interesting, these are the sort of questions
one should ask to a Dzogchen master or, at least, an advanced practitioner. I say this not to
dismiss your attainments in any way, that may very well be deeper and more meaningful than
mine, but to avoid confusion. We are talking about very precise matters that are important
to the practice. Getting wrong ideas in this issue can bring problems to one's practice. For
goodness sake, we are talking about recognizing rigpa and realizing emptiness... these are
not exactly nuts and bolts.
Top

(#p56064)
bydeepbluehumMonSep12,20111:15am
Andrew108 wrote:
I don't think the question was really answered correctly.
So politely I will give my answer to what really can only be experienced.
The way Rigpa is defined is as selforiginated intrinsic awareness. Self
originated is the same as saying unborn. Unborn describes the true nature of
mind and 'unborn' here is emptiness or dharmakaya. Rigpa and it's unborn
nature are inseparable. Can't have one without the other. This unity of
awareness and emptiness is also called the path of selfliberation otherwise
known as Dzogchen. A genuine experience of emptiness and a genuine
experience of rigpa are the same this experience is glimpsed during direct
transmission from teacher to student.
I say you and Namdrol are both right. You are right because the direct introduction does
provide a glimpse into emptiness. But Namdrol is also right because a practitioner still has to
practice, meaning work on maintaining the mindfulness of that experience 24/7, which is the
paths, bhumis, stages, yogas, visions, etc. Of course if you realize the true nature at that
moment you are buddha, but the minute you slip out of mindfulness, you are samsara again.
Especially in the dream state, mindfulness is especially difficult to maintain. But with hard
efforts put into it, receiving the blessings of your lineage, then even the dream state will
transform into dharma. The point is that the omniscient character of the dharmakaya is not
seen after the direct introduction, and you definitely will realize it gradually and not all at
once. So much for sudden enlightenment.
Top
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(#p56066)
byMalcolmMonSep12,20111:28am
Andrew108 wrote:
The way Rigpa is defined is as selforiginated intrinsic awareness.
No, it isn't.
For this reason all of your other comments are skewed.
N
Top

(#p56067)
deepbluehum wrote:
I say you and Namdrol are both right. You are right because the direct
introduction does provide a glimpse into emptiness.
It is not the same as the realization of the path seeing.

It is an example wisdom only.
N
Top

(#p56068)
See what I mean, fellows? Unless we have the proper study/ practice we make a lot of
speculations that may get us into trouble and make our practice harder.
Lopponla is a good example of the type of practitioner we should ask these questions. It goes
without saying that I make this remark not to flatter him, as he surely doesn't need it, but to
show how sometimes we think we are getting things right and we aren't. There are matters,
especially in Dzogchen, where we really can't afford to go by our own "inventions" (no insult
or anything of the sort intended).
3/9
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Top

(#p56069)
Dechen Norbu wrote:

You know fellows, although this discussion is quite interesting, these are the
sort of questions one should ask to a Dzogchen master or, at least, an advanced
practitioner. I say this not to dismiss your attainments in any way, that may
very well be deeper and more meaningful than mine, but to avoid confusion.
We are talking about very precise matters that are important to the practice.
Getting wrong ideas in this issue can bring problems to one's practice. For
goodness sake, we are talking about recognizing rigpa and realizing
emptiness... these are not exactly nuts and bolts.
That's why I stopped at this:

Rigpa contains understanding of the emptiness of all phenomena but it is not limited simply
to an experience of emptiness, which would leave it equivalent to the First Bhumi on the
Bodhisattva path. It is much more profound than that.
Top

(#p56070)
Andrew108 wrote:
A genuine experience of emptiness and a genuine experience of rigpa are the
same this experience is glimpsed during direct transmission from teacher to
student.
Many people make this mistake. Such people never understand Dzogchen.
Top

(#p56071)
My only concern is that in spite of the incredible fortune of having the possibility of getting
good advice, people get ahead of themselves and end up making their path harder.
Guys, take it from me. It doesn't pay off getting "creative" in these matters. Use all the help
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you can get. It's priceless. I say this for your own sake, without wanting to impose anything.
It's a friendly advice based on my experience. I could have spared a lot of wasted time if I
followed good advice from the start.
This doesn't mean we can't get discussions going or anything of the sort. All your posts are
welcome. But pay attention to those who are more seasoned as they may have a thing of two
to make your practice way more effective.
Top

(#p56080)
byalwaysonMonSep12,20114:11am
So basically,
Path of seeing = first bhumi = third vision = realizing emptiness
Lasteditedbyalwayson(./memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=1388)onMonSep
12,20114:17am,edited2timesintotal.
Top

(#p56081)
alwayson wrote:
Does path of seeing = realizing emptiness or not?
In Mahayana, yes.
Sorry. You edited your post:
alwayson wrote:
So basically:
Path of seeing = first bhumi = third vision = realizing emptiness
Path of seeing does equal first bhumi, and the realization of emptiness.
However the third vision is strictly a Dzogchen thing, which only happens to those on the first
bhumi or higher who are practicing Thodgal. (Namdrollha can clarify if anything is incorrect).
Kevin
LasteditedbyVirgo(./memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=278)onMonSep12,
20114:39am,edited1timeintotal.
Top
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(#p56085)
Actually you have to tack on something else:

Path of seeing = first bhumi = third vision (seeing nonconceptual appearances) = realizing
emptiness
Top

(#p56087)
alwayson wrote:
Actually you have to tack on something else:
Path of seeing = first bhumi = third vision (seeing nonconceptual appearances)
= realizing emptiness
No, no, no.

The path of seeing is available to any Mahayanist or Vajraynist.
The Third Vision, isn't about seeing with nonceptual awareness. It is about developing vision
to the full measure of awareness before mtharthug zad pa can occur.
Kevin
LasteditedbyVirgo(./memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=278)onMonSep12,
20114:51am,edited1timeintotal.
Top

(#p56088)
yeah no
I am right
Path of seeing = first bhumi = third vision (seeing nonconceptual appearances) = realizing
emptiness
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When you literally see ******* deities in the third vision, don't you consider that nonconceptual
apperances?!
Lasteditedbypurplerose(./memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=86)onMonSep
12,20118:41am,edited1timeintotal.
Reason:removedinappropriateword
Top

(#p56089)
alwayson wrote:
yeah no
I am right
Path of seeing = first bhumi = third vision (seeing nonconceptual appearances)

= realizing emptiness
When you literally see ******* deities in the third vision, don't you consider that
nonconceptual apperances?!
What I am not totally keen on is your usage of the term "nonconceptual appearances" here,
specifically the nonconceptual part. The Third Vision is still far away from the Fourth. What
it boils down to is technical language here really. We are Buddhists and we have to be
technical. Namdrol is qualified to say if this is truly nonconceptual or not being an
Abhidharma expert, and so on.
Also, they all don't equal each other and are not synonymous because someone can attain the
path of seeing without ever practicing Dzogchen. Those people do not experience the Third
Vision at that time, which is a very important point.
Kevin
Lasteditedbypurplerose(./memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=86)onMonSep
12,20118:42am,edited1timeintotal.
Reason:removedinappropriatewordinthequotedsection
Top

(#p56091)
bygroundMonSep12,20115:17am
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alwayson wrote:
Namdrol wrote:
recognizing rigpa and realizing emptiness are different.
N
What is the difference?
There is no difference in that both linguistic expressions are of concern for you only because
you learned that there are those linguistic expressions and since you learned them you now
may be getting obsesses about them.
Can you forget them to return to the state when you haven't had learned them?
The Blessed One said, "What is the All? Simply the eye & forms, ear & sounds,
nose & aromas, tongue & flavors, body & tactile sensations, intellect & ideas.
This, monks, is called the All. [1] Anyone who would say, 'Repudiating this All, I
will describe another,' if questioned on what exactly might be the grounds for
his statement, would be unable to explain, and furthermore, would be put to
grief. Why? Because it lies beyond range."
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
(http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn35/sn35.023.than.html)
Kind regards
Top

(#p56092)
I hate the Pali canon

Top

(#p56093)
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14/10/2558
alwayson wrote:
You may want to practice the way that leads to cessation of passions. "Cessation of passions"
stands for "cessation of suffering".
Kind regards
Top

(#p56095)
bydeepbluehumMonSep12,20115:47am
alwayson wrote:
Disparaging other Buddhist vehicles is heavy negative karma. Please don't do that here. It will
close your path.
Top
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14/10/2558

Difference between recognizing rigpa & realizing emptiness?

Re: Difference between recognizing rigpa & realizing emptiness?

I don't think the question was really answered correctly.

Re: Difference between recognizing rigpa & realizing emptiness?

I hope this helps.

Re: Difference between recognizing rigpa & realizing emptiness?

Re: Difference between recognizing rigpa & realizing emptiness?

Re: Difference between recognizing rigpa & realizing emptiness?

Re: Difference between recognizing rigpa & realizing emptiness?

It is not the same as the realization of the path seeing.

Re: Difference between recognizing rigpa & realizing emptiness?

Re: Difference between recognizing rigpa & realizing emptiness?

Dechen Norbu wrote:

That's why I stopped at this:

Re: Difference between recognizing rigpa & realizing emptiness?

Re: Difference between recognizing rigpa & realizing emptiness?

Re: Difference between recognizing rigpa & realizing emptiness?

Re: Difference between recognizing rigpa & realizing emptiness?

Re: Difference between recognizing rigpa & realizing emptiness?

Actually you have to tack on something else:

Re: Difference between recognizing rigpa & realizing emptiness?

No, no, no.

Re: Difference between recognizing rigpa & realizing emptiness?

Re: Difference between recognizing rigpa & realizing emptiness?

Path of seeing = first bhumi = third vision (seeing nonconceptual appearances)

Re: Difference between recognizing rigpa & realizing emptiness?

What is the difference?

Re: Difference between recognizing rigpa & realizing emptiness?

I hate the Pali canon

Re: Difference between recognizing rigpa & realizing emptiness?

Re: Difference between recognizing rigpa & realizing emptiness?

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