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Re: Lazy people should just give up, right? (#p61448)

byOgyenSunOct16,201112:53am
padma norbu wrote:

I mostly think about it several times a day even when I'm not doing any sitting
practice. Just lately, I've gotten to feel pretty good about not feeling guilty
about not practicing. I came to a point where I just refuse to make mantra
noises out of a sense of duty or fear of hell. They say halfassed practice is
better than none, but I'm going to follow the Buddha's advice and think this out
with my own damn mind. I don't think shutting off my brain and pushing my
emotions into a ball deep down inside while I chant mantras is the answer.
there are many forms of practice. Sometimes, on forums, I'd rather someone took three
seconds to be a bit more human to another poster that just pushed their imaginary button
and be considerate of another REAL human being, than that same person feeling so holy for
having sat on a cushion for 30 minutes.
The point is, practice is allpervasive, everywhere you turn you CAN practice. Cushion time is
important, no doubt about it, but how do you react when someone pisses you off, pushes
your buttons, makes you feel insecure.... these things are far more indicative of your practice
than how much time you can stretch repeating by rote mantras that you have a hard time
feeling. Don't get me wrong, there is nothing wrong with that either, but think of any sense
that becomes numb by overstimulation. If you chant mechanically, best save the breath for
perhaps reflecting on death and impermanence..? Dunno..
I mantra because I know that energy builds, big comes from small. It's not that I feel so
compassionate every time I mantra, sometimes it's mechanical, but when it is, I focus on the
rote that is the vehicle for energy. I'm in not tune with any magic mushroom hippydippy trip
for peace and love, I'm not even a good Buddhist. I don't think I've ever been an exemplary ist
or ian of any kind... though I admit that I do attempt to awaken bodhicitta in what small bits
of time I get when I remember to be mindful.
Remember ...all energy builds, and nothing begun is ever lost. I'd rather feed a certain kind of
energy (so called halfassed practice) bcos at the worst, it doesn't hurt. You can't go wrong
meaning well if doing mantra. Nopractice (for myself) leeches energy and habitual energy
like inertia takes on a life and spiral of its own. Then I find myself being more and more self
important, finding my own neuroses to matter somehow...
http://dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?f=48&t=5485&start=220
1/17
14/10/2558
If you're lazy, make it a point to use your laziness for your practice, and not against your
practice. Perhaps when encountering some form of laziness in another person in your life
that gets you riled up or going, think back to this laziness of yours, and how it chafes at your
ideas of practice... it might elicit an interesting connection you may not have made before.
Practice is just being good to others. Everything else, falls into place and shape... Ask
yourself a simple question: are you lazy about being good (as good as you can be) to yourself
and others? If you're like 99.9% of the world, you are also doing your best. Just remember
when you can, and if you can't do better next time!
D.Ogyen
Top

bypadmanorbuSunOct16,20111:24am
Namdrol wrote:
padma norbu wrote:
Dzogchen way is not creative visualization.
The Dzogchen way does not exclude visualization. Quite the contrary.
Yeah right, except that the instruction is always to see yourself as Tara but more importantly
to feel it and not focus too much on the visualization at all because that is not the main
point.
Or, in Namkhai Norbu's own words from Crystal and The Way of Light p.174: "Anuyoga (which
is what the Green Tara practice of Namkhai Norbu is)...uses a form of visualization not found
elsewhere: the visualization is manifested in an instant rather than it being built up gradually
detail by detail as in the other yogas. At the Anuyoga level, one visualizes oneself as the
deity, rather than visualizing the divinity as external to oneself, and the powerful sensation
of being the 'deity' oneself is considered more important than the formation of a complete
mental image of all the various details of the divinity and his or her surrounding mandala."
Top

dakini_boi wrote:
Making images of Buddhas is a perfectly valid form of practice, and it is said, a
great way to accumulate merit. I think in the Gelugpa school as part of their
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ngondro they have to make 100,000 tsa tsas. Chanting Tara's mantra while
drawing pictures of her sounds great. Why not?
padma norbu wrote:

Anyway, the question is this: I think it might be helpful for me to go back
to doing kriya yoga Tara or perhaps visualize myself as Tara in some
way, but not just focus on Tibetan syllables spinning around.
Sure, find what works for you. You don't have to visualize syllables. If you can't
see all the details, just focus on one part, like her hand or crown or lotus seat.
Or you can just visualize green light with rainbows shooting everywhere. Some
people are more kinaesthetic than visual in that case, just having a "feeling
sense" of her can work. One of my teachers has said something like, even just
visualizing Guru Rinpoche's fingernail has inconceivable benefit. I've also heard
that Dudjom Rinpoche advised beginners to visualize Vajrasattva as a white ball
above their heads. (Yes, Padma Norbu, I know you're not a beginner!!
)
Each aspect of a deity's form symbolizes complete Buddhahood. The point is to
have an experience of some quality of the deity. Not to "do it right." As a friend
advised me when I was frustrated with my inability to practice properly, it is
IMPOSSIBLE to practice properly. Haven't you noticed? Just trying to sincerely
practice dharma in and of itself is amazing. Do your best, keep it engaging, try
it different ways, and challenge yourself to add more detail to the visualization
once in a while.
Ideally, the deity actually appears and you don't have to visualize. Failing that,
everything else is an approximation.
Yes, thank you for this advice. It is funny, but it has taken me a long time to accept this fact
and I am only just now starting to get it. When I practice, I am rigidly trying to do it right or
else I feel like it is not good practice. Now that I think about it, that seems so obviously
stupid, but it's the kind of thinking that makes me stop practicing for long periods because I
feel like "oh what's the use? the main point is to try to be mindful, anyway, so I'll just try to do
that..." and then of course I am not so great at that. May be getting better at mindfulness
despite myself, though.
Top

Ogyen wrote:
padma norbu wrote:
I mostly think about it several times a day even when I'm not doing any
sitting practice. Just lately, I've gotten to feel pretty good about not
feeling guilty about not practicing. I came to a point where I just refuse
to make mantra noises out of a sense of duty or fear of hell. They say
3/17
14/10/2558
halfassed practice is better than none, but I'm going to follow the
Buddha's advice and think this out with my own damn mind. I don't think
shutting off my brain and pushing my emotions into a ball deep down
inside while I chant mantras is the answer.
there are many forms of practice. Sometimes, on forums, I'd rather someone
took three seconds to be a bit more human to another poster that just pushed
their imaginary button and be considerate of another REAL human being, than
that same person feeling so holy for having sat on a cushion for 30 minutes.
The point is, practice is allpervasive, everywhere you turn you CAN practice.
Cushion time is important, no doubt about it, but how do you react when
someone pisses you off, pushes your buttons, makes you feel insecure.... these
things are far more indicative of your practice than how much time you can
stretch repeating by rote mantras that you have a hard time feeling. Don't get
me wrong, there is nothing wrong with that either, but think of any sense that
becomes numb by overstimulation. If you chant mechanically, best save the
breath for perhaps reflecting on death and impermanence..? Dunno..
I mantra because I know that energy builds, big comes from small. It's not that I
feel so compassionate every time I mantra, sometimes it's mechanical, but when
it is, I focus on the rote that is the vehicle for energy. I'm in not tune with any
magic mushroom hippydippy trip for peace and love, I'm not even a good
Buddhist. I don't think I've ever been an exemplary ist or ian of any kind...
though I admit that I do attempt to awaken bodhicitta in what small bits of time
I get when I remember to be mindful.
Remember ...all energy builds, and nothing begun is ever lost. I'd rather feed a
certain kind of energy (so called halfassed practice) bcos at the worst, it
doesn't hurt. You can't go wrong meaning well if doing mantra. Nopractice (for
myself) leeches energy and habitual energy like inertia takes on a life and
spiral of its own. Then I find myself being more and more selfimportant,
finding my own neuroses to matter somehow...
If you're lazy, make it a point to use your laziness for your practice, and not
against your practice. Perhaps when encountering some form of laziness in
another person in your life that gets you riled up or going, think back to this
laziness of yours, and how it chafes at your ideas of practice... it might elicit
an interesting connection you may not have made before.
Practice is just being good to others. Everything else, falls into place and
shape... Ask yourself a simple question: are you lazy about being good (as good
as you can be) to yourself and others? If you're like 99.9% of the world, you are
also doing your best. Just remember when you can, and if you can't do better
next time!
D.Ogyen
VERY good advice, imo. Something I actually needed to hear from someone else. Thank you.
4/17
14/10/2558
So glad I am letting my guard down these days and telling the world I suck. It has really
benefitted me quickly in many ways probably much more than years of trying to be a good
practitioner. Now I feel like I can get back to practice without worrying and whining, I hope.
Still feel lazy, but I have strategies now and less guilt about nonsitting types of practice.
With these mostly selfimposed burdens off my shoulders, I don't think daily sitting practice
will seem so hopeless, anyway. I hope that for all the negativity I've vented here that
ultimately this thread was somehow positive to other people besides just me and I also hope I
didn't destroy my samaya beyond belief by openly discussing practices, complaining,
expressing doubts, etc. Oh well, I can now do my best to repair that.
Thanks again and I think I will stop posting in this thread at this point.
Top

bydeepbluehumSunOct16,20112:30am
Hi Padma Norbu, I haven't read this thread in detail, but if I may make a suggestion: just
contemplate impermanence. It is a simple and powerful practice. Take a look at
Vasubandhu's Karmasiddhiprakarana. It it the best explanation of karma, and hence rebirth.
http://lirs.ru/lib/Karmasiddhiprakarana ... n,1987.pdf
(http://lirs.ru/lib/Karmasiddhiprakarana,Lamotte,Pruden,1987.pdf)
Top

bydeepbluehumSunOct16,20112:36am
PS if you are lazy consider tregcho, the lazy path to buddhahood (Dudjom Lingpa's
"Buddhahood without Meditation.") Buddhism is a supermarket of practices. Just pick
something that resonates with you (once you have worked through your doubts). BTW
Buddhism must be scrutinized. It is being a good Buddhist to scrutinize the teachings.
Top

byheartSunOct16,201110:21am
padma norbu wrote:

Namdrol wrote:
padma norbu wrote:
Dzogchen way is not creative visualization.
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The Dzogchen way does not exclude visualization. Quite the contrary.
Yeah right, except that the instruction is always to see yourself as Tara but
more importantly to feel it and not focus too much on the visualization at all
because that is not the main point.
Or, in Namkhai Norbu's own words from Crystal and The Way of Light p.174:
"Anuyoga (which is what the Green Tara practice of Namkhai Norbu is)...uses a
form of visualization not found elsewhere: the visualization is manifested in an
instant rather than it being built up gradually detail by detail as in the other
yogas. At the Anuyoga level, one visualizes oneself as the deity, rather than
visualizing the divinity as external to oneself, and the powerful sensation of
being the 'deity' oneself is considered more important than the formation of a
complete mental image of all the various details of the divinity and his or her
surrounding mandala."
Most Tibetan sadhanas are anuyoga style Namdrol once said. I think you should be as
creative and inventive as you feel you need to be in this situation. Creativity is needed
Vajrayana and that includes Dzogchen. No point in doing visualizations if you don't engage
and overpower your mind with them. When Tara shines like an wild emerald sun in your mind
you will feel close to the natural state. You should take whatever practice you do to the limit
and that is your responsibility not your teachers.
/magnus
Top

bydakini_boiSunOct16,20114:32pm
dakini_boi wrote:
padma norbu wrote:
I mostly think about it several times a day even when I'm not doing any
sitting practice. Just lately, I've gotten to feel pretty good about not
feeling guilty about not practicing. I came to a point where I just refuse
to make mantra noises out of a sense of duty or fear of hell. They say
halfassed practice is better than none, but I'm going to follow the
Buddha's advice and think this out with my own damn mind. I don't think
shutting off my brain and pushing my emotions into a ball deep down
inside while I chant mantras is the answer.
6/17
14/10/2558
By the way, I think I should clarify a bit what I meant when I said halfassed practice is better
than none. I certainly didn't mean it's better to use your practice to suppress your emotions
and torture yourself!
Actually, what I meant is closer to Ogyen's beautiful post. She explained it way better and
more thoroughly than I did. Practice isn't about "doing something you're supposed to do." It's
about taking steps in the moment to decrease suffering and increase happiness and wisdom.
The great thing is, in Vajrayana, anything can be a dharma practice. The point of this is not
to be constantly neurotically trying to practice and obsessively saying mantras and prayers
(trust me, I have experience with this!) The point is to recognize the opportunity that arises
in each moment to increase causes for happiness, even in inconsequential ways. And notice
when and how you're reinforcing your own suffering, and shift gears.
dakini_boi wrote:
. . . Any yana that you practice (with the possible exception of Dzogchen as a
standalone yana) requires you to have at least somewhat integrated all the
yanas below it. So it's up to the practitioner to be flexible and use skillful
means as necessary. . . to see beings as your mothers suffering in samsara, to
see them as dakas and dakinis in a pure land, to see them as the play of your
teacher, to see them as disgusting heaps of blood and flesh, etc. Dzogchen in
particular could give the misunderstanding that you actually don't have to
practice to attain liberation. . . when actually, you do. This misunderstanding
could make you feel quite lazy, even when you know you do have to practice. .
.
padma norbu wrote:

I feel like there are too many options and so I just really have to try to
stick to what works for me once I figure out exactly what that is. I simply
can't flip a switch and believe everything is perfect and then flip it again
and believe everything is disgusting heaps of blood and flesh. Rather, I
tell myself: these circumstances are upsetting to me because we have
manifested this reality with our karma and this is samsara. I can not look
at samsara and say "IT IS PERFECT!" because it isn't. This makes no sense
to me at all except if I explain it simply as causeeffectresult = balance
and suffering = desire for liberation. In those two ways, it is "perfect."
Other than that, I have to remember not to get confused by ideas of
justice or some great plan as the theists do. There may be devas and
dakinis all around me, helping me, trying to wake me up, etc. but I
simply can't believe stuff like "the earth is a test where we learn to
better ourselves" and such crap.
This isn't meant to be done arbitrarily and it isn't as easy as flipping switches it's mind
training and take time and effort (well, except for rigpa, assuming you have it!). Basically,
you endeavor to practice the view of whatever is the highest vehicle you have received
transmission in. For example, if you are a Dzogchen practitioner, you ideally would be in the
state of rigpa all the time. If your ability to be in rigpa is limited, you can practice Vajrayana
"pure perception" seeing all beings as the deity, and the environment as the pure land. If
you have emotional and conceptual limits which make this too difficult, you can practice the
Mahayana view of seeing all beings as your mothers suffering in samsara. If you are too
emotionally distraught even to develop compassion, then you can at least take
refuge/comfort in the idea that freedom from suffering is possible. If you lack faith even for
this, then you can at least observe the drawbacks of samsara. . .
7/17
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Now, since your limitations and capabilities are always changing, it's up to you to determine
for yourself what is appropriate. You have to be flexible and creative. . . I think the idea of
creating images of Green Tara, rather than just sit there doing her "practice," was a great
solution you had as I said before, the point is to cultivate a relationship and a sense of the
qualities of the deity.
Anyway, I agree with you that Vajrayana can be a TRAP for perfectionists. (I have 4 planets
in virgo, so I know a bit about perfectionism.) But it's set up in such a way that requires SO
much of you, and at the same time it's IMPOSSIBLE to do it all correctly and so then you have
extensive protector practices, confession practices, fear of vajra hell, etc. . . it's just to keep
us continually engaged and also humble. Because to actually attain Buddhahood in one
lifetime is a huge undertaking. To even want to attempt it takes enormous guts.
Top

bypadmanorbuSunOct16,20115:29pm
heart wrote:
Most Tibetan sadhanas are anuyoga style Namdrol once said.
On p.174 in The Crystal and the Way of Light it says "Anuyoga is only found in Nyingmapa
school."
heart wrote:
I think you should be as creative and inventive as you feel you need to be in
this situation. Creativity is needed Vajrayana and that includes Dzogchen. No
point in doing visualizations if you don't engage and overpower your mind with
them.
it is quite amazing but "Ah" is like flipping a switch for me. Trying to do any practice without
it seems much harder to "overpower your mind," as you put it.
I see what you are saying, but it's funny how much nuance there is to my particular
grievances, I suppose. It seems to take an extraordinary amount of words for me to explain
my situation precisely...
If you want to read more (below), feel free. Don't feel obligated. I am sick of hearing
myself talk and don't think anymore is necessary. Only wrote all this out (below) to
explain more precisely... again, it's not necessary, only if you are interested.
As I've said before, possibly even on this thread (so don't think I'm suddenly changing my story
on you here), I don't find it difficult at all to pass a certain point where sitting is possible for
long periods of time and my mind is pretty much turned off, for lack of a better description. I
don't visualize the Tibetan syllables. I visualize briefly an abstract version of them and quickly
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blur them into balls of light. I then just have a tendency to kind of flip back and forth
between the central visualization with the spinning and an overall image of myself as the
deity. This just happens naturally. Ideas tend to float up here and there; with Tara practice I
see myself as Tara sending lights and benefitting beings and in wrathful deity practice I see
the flames are burning away negativities and certain negative things in my life will briefly
come to mind, in which case I usually just burn up the ideas quickly and then go back to the
central spinning visualization. I just let these ideas happen and go back to visualizing the
central spinning. I don't try to really "overpower" my mind because I think of these thoughts
arising as the natural "speech" quality. To silence it seems you would be on your way to
formless absorption.
I do have a limit of how many hours I can sit doing this kind of meditation, though, which is
apparently due to the "wisdom energy" which is perceived as frustration to me. This is what I
was told when I asked about it and then somewhat later I heard Pema Chodron talking about
her experience with the same exact problem which she called "dakini bliss" and I recognized
exactly what she was talking about. I have not worked with this enough to see how it can be
perceived as nonfrustration, though, because I am not eager to do another 3day retreat
and become frustrated by disappointment of not even being able to achieve that level of
frustration again, which is ironic, but which is what I suspect will happen. Pema Chodron said
as soon as Trungpa called it "dakini bliss" she felt it and didn't try to resist it anymore and
then it simply went away.
The fact is, I had a very significant experience (to me, anyway) which I have just typed out
and then deleted because I think sharing experiences is viewed as bragging or breaking
samaya, so I'll just keep it to myself. I've already shared it with my teacher(s). The fact that I
did have this experience which then resulted in utter frustration and which does not really
seem to have made much of a difference in my behavior/outlook is probably a big part of
the frustration you see expressed here. I can plainly see how others might read this and say,
"wow, that's pathetic. You get a little taste and give up!" And I don't disagree with that
feeling at all. The frustration has caused me to become lazy and perhaps even a bit afraid of
stirring up that extreme level of frustration again through practice. I think this really might
be the ego collapsing, but it feels like you're on the brink of insanity when it happens. I don't
relish the idea of facing that alone on a weekend retreat when I have a stack of work waiting
for me at the office on monday.
I don't have the luxury to do much about this situation, really. I have a wife that wants to
always go on vacation when I can get a few days off work and I make almost no money and
am in debt up to my eyeballs, so I can't really pay for a weeklong retreat somewhere with
professional 'babysitters' to make sure I don't go crazy and then take another week off to
recuperate from whatever insanity I unleash upon myself before returning to work. So, there
are a lot of obstacles in my life which practice isn't really helping in any way. Rather, it seems
like practice is highlighting these obstacles and making them seem much more unpleasant.
All of these reasons is why I started this thread. I felt like I should just try to improve my
relative existence and focus on getting myself out of this hole rather than trying to do some
practice and not worrying about it. This was the advice of Chagdud Tulku Rinpoche, for
example. He had students worrying about paying the bills and he was taking food and going
outside to feed the birds with it and inviting people over and feeding them when they didn't
have the money to feed themselves. When his students expressed concern, he said, "Give.
Don't worry, just give." And the moral of the story was that, as the visitors increased, so did
his students and as his students increased the donations poured in and everything worked
out. Chagdud Tulku always gave credit to Red Tara for taking care of him.
I don't know what to make of my situation, really. I have had good intentions for so long, but
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my practice stinks and my relative situation isn't really improving. I know others have it so
much worse than me out there for sure. There is also something that is... not really
hypocritical, but... while renouncing samsara, I have moments where I just have to indulge
my desires, even ones that seem negative. I think perhaps understanding Tantra better might
be the right thing for me. I don't really try to practice "the path of transformation," but I
think I should. Instead I have "an attitude of renounciation" as if nothing is really that
important (which is truly how I feel) and try to be mindful and experience things as one taste.
But, I think learning to transform desire and feel myself as the deity might be just the ticket
for me... so I am reading Lama Yeshe's "Introduction To Tantra" now and trying to fill in
whatever blanks I am still missing. I don't really have a thorough understanding of Tantra and
it really seems that this might be a most useful tool for me.
Anyway, like I said, I'm going to get back to practice and not worry about it. I am not going to
treat my career as a secondrate concern any longer, though. I am going to work hard at my
career to get myself out of this rut so that hopefully I will have more luxury to practice. In
the past, I have reasoned that suffering is what inspires us to practice because if our lives are
are too good and filled with luxury and entertainment, then we will get lazy about practice.
Well, look at me now. The only difference is I'm poor.
I'm just going to try to dedicate a half hour to sitting practice in the morning and again at
night. I have done this in the past and I absolutely KNOW that I will become rushing and
frustrated about it when I am running late or just plain don't want to do it, but oh well. When
I feel this way I will try to incorprate the drawing/painting into the practice (as I mentioned
earlier) to develop bodhicitta.
heart wrote:
This When Tara shines like an wild emerald sun in your mind you will feel close
to the natural state.
This has definitely happened and that is part of the reason I have had this frustrated feeling
about practice. Having some major breakthroughs did not seem to really change my reality
very much or make practice easier.
heart wrote:
You should take whatever practice you do to the limit and that is your
responsibility not your teachers.
/magnus
Yes, good to remember. Occasionally, frustration has caused me to feel somewhat resentful
or doubting of my teachers. Even while it happens, I know this is a major nono, but the
emotions arise and I can not simply deny they have arisen. I try to analyze the thoughts
rather than indulge them and make sure never to act on the feelings by expressing them.
Then, when that feeling has passed, I try to apologize silently and with real regret prior to
my next tun. Nothing feels more hypocritical than to have been in a really bad place for a few
days with thoughts of blame arising and then returning to your altar with pictures of your
teachers on it and being like, "hey guys, let's be friends now..."
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Okay, and now I think I've explained everything as much as possible and I am back on track
again anyway, now, so again I would like to express that I don't intend on writing anymore in
this thread and that I hope it is somehow overall a positive experience for everyone despite
the negative emotions expressed.
Top

bySherabDorjeSunOct16,20117:02pm
Practices aren't there to change "reality", they are there to help us change the way we see
"reality".
Of course when we change our view of reality, this also changes the way we act, and this in
turn changes "reality".
But one thing you can't forget is that samsara is infinite, it'll always throw something at us
that we want to change, and then we just practice some more...
ad nauseum...
Let's not delude ourselves, the path is the goal, the practice is the outcome! Once we realise
that then everything changes!
Top

byOgyenSunOct16,20117:47pm
gregkavarnos wrote:
Practices aren't there to change "reality", they are there to help us change the
way we see "reality".
Of course when we change our view of reality, this also changes the way we
act, and this in turn changes "reality".
But one thing you can't forget is that samsara is infinite, it'll always throw
something at us that we want to change, and then we just practice some
more...
ad nauseum...
Let's not delude ourselves, the path is the goal, the practice is the outcome!
Once we realise that then everything changes!
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14/10/2558
Holy crap Greg! I'm impressed with how much you've come to this simply! I can recall a similar
conversation like this some now 3 years ago and how different your response was. Wow...
like.. wow.
You've made my day! Thank you! You are the proof of this "reality" changing, I see. My
confidence in dharma is bolstered a touch more, may that benefit all beings.
D.
Top

okay, well, who am I to refuse if people would like to just continue the discussion? I am not
going to talk about my problems anymore, but if you want to share ideas....
gregkavarnos wrote:
So, they change reality.
gregkavarnos wrote:
But one thing you can't forget is that samsara is infinite, it'll always throw
something at us that we want to change, and then we just practice some
more...
ad nauseum...
Let's not delude ourselves, the path is the goal, the practice is the outcome!
Once we realise that then everything changes!
I'm pretty sure the "path is the goal" is to be taken on a few different levels. Realization of
Buddhahood means an end to samsara and the manifestation of wisdom bodies is
spontaneous, the actions of which are not concerned with samsara in remotely the same
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fashion as we are. Are the Buddhas still "on the path?" I suppose you could say that, but how
these deities exist or manifest is something beyond our capacity to understand for the very
simple fact that they now reside in darmakaya and the manifestation of enjoyment bodies is
automatic, spontaneous enlightened activity. I could become utterly brainwashed to be an
automaton spontaneously responding with loving kindness to all sentient beings in all
circumstances and utterly brainwashed to believe that nothing is truly real and to see it all as
a nondual, dependently arising display full of ignorant perceivers who can't see the big
picture (with the brainwashing techniques we have today, this is entirely possible, I think),
but I would not be a Buddha. I would just be brainwashed and probably very wellbehaved but
a strangely blank creature of habit. Kind of like a Hare Krishna, maybe. I don't know too much
about them, but the little contact I've had reeks of brainwashing.
Top

byKarmaDondrupTashiSunOct16,201110:28pm
gregkavarnos wrote:
"The Science and Art of causing Change to occur in conformity with Will".
Top

Karma Dondrup Tashi wrote:

gregkavarnos wrote:
Practices aren't there to change "reality", they are there to help us
change the way we see "reality".
Of course when we change our view of reality, this also changes the way
we act, and this in turn changes "reality".
13/17
14/10/2558
I find it bizarre that you just quoted Aleister Crowley's definition of magick verbatim.
http://www.google.com/search?gcx=w&sour ... th+Will%22 (http://www.google.com/search?
gcx=w&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF
8&q=%22The+Science+and+Art+of+causing+Change+to+occur+in+conformity+with+Will%22)
Intentional or accidental?
Top

byVirgoMonOct17,20114:16am
Karma Dondrup Tashi wrote:

gregkavarnos wrote:
I find it bizarre that you just quoted Aleister Crowley's definition of magick
verbatim.
Wouldn't it be better if it were, "The Science and Art of causing Change to occur in
conformity with our Will through ritual".
Any change we purposefully affect is driven partially by will, so this definition is a little bit
lacking.
Kevin
Top

byKarmaDondrupTashiMonOct17,20114:20am
padma norbu wrote:

I find it bizarre that you just quoted Aleister Crowley's definition of magick
verbatim.
Intentional or accidental?
Oh intentional. For me Dzogchen is the real magick.

Top
14/17
14/10/2558

bypadmanorbuMonOct17,20115:42am
Did you ever read much of his work or actually work his system? I've often thought about the
very obvious Vajrayana influence on his work and wonder exactly where it came from. That
wasn't the kind of Buddhism he studied. Some of the stuff he came up with reminds me of
Dzogchen, too. There are a few people out there trying to promote a sort of fusion of his
work and Vajrayana (e.g. Sam Webster), but it doesn't seem proper to me. I've often thought
about why, too, since Buddhism is all about love, acceptance and integrating. It takes the
shape of whatever culture it's in. But, I don't know, it doesn't really make sense to me to use
Egyptian gods for Buddhist practice. Or, I guess it might be more accurate to say that he uses
Buddhist practice to worship Egyptian gods. It's clear he has a Buddhist understanding and he
applies that to Thelema for some reason. Not entirely sure why.
Top

byVirgoMonOct17,20115:59am
padma norbu wrote:

Did you ever read much of his work or actually work his system? I've often
thought about the very obvious Vajrayana influence on his work and wonder
exactly where it came from. That wasn't the kind of Buddhism he studied. Some
of the stuff he came up with reminds me of Dzogchen, too. There are a few
people out there trying to promote a sort of fusion of his work and Vajrayana
(e.g. Sam Webster), but it doesn't seem proper to me. I've often thought about
why, too, since Buddhism is all about love, acceptance and integrating. It takes
the shape of whatever culture it's in. But, I don't know, it doesn't really make
sense to me to use Egyptian gods for Buddhist practice. Or, I guess it might be
more accurate to say that he uses Buddhist practice to worship Egyptian gods.
It's clear he has a Buddhist understanding and he applies that to Thelema for
some reason. Not entirely sure why.
Why? Because different beings have different defilements.

That is to say, he was under the sway of his defilements.
Kevin
Top

bySherabDorjeMonOct17,20118:08am
padma norbu wrote:

So, they change reality.
15/17
14/10/2558
I've tried three times to reply to this post and every time something went wrong. I'll just
leave it at that then!
I'm pretty sure the "path is the goal" is to be taken on a few different levels.
Realization of Buddhahood means an end to samsara and the manifestation of
wisdom bodies is spontaneous, the actions of which are not concerned with
samsara in remotely the same fashion as we are. Are the Buddhas still "on the
path?"
Buddhas are beyond the dualisms of path and goal.
I could become utterly brainwashed to be an automaton spontaneously

responding with loving kindness to all sentient beings in all circumstances and
utterly brainwashed to believe that nothing is truly real and to see it all as a
nondual, dependently arising display full of ignorant perceivers who can't see
the big picture (with the brainwashing techniques we have today, this is
entirely possible, I think), but I would not be a Buddha.
True, but these practices are also designed to accumulate merit, something that never goes
astray.
I would just be brainwashed and probably very wellbehaved but a strangely

blank creature of habit. Kind of like a Hare Krishna, maybe. I don't know too
much about them, but the little contact I've had reeks of brainwashing.
Well, let's not forget the importance of intention in our practice. Like I said above,
accumulating merit and not accumulating negative outcomes is not such a bad thing: "fake it
'til you make it!" My advice to you (and me) is to assess your motivation for practice. At the
empowerments I just attended Beru Khyentse, at the beginning of each session, would talk
about the importance of the correct motivation for receiving the practices. Most of the time I
was thinking about how much of an idiot I was receiving the practices since my motivation
was unclear and everytime that I tried to arouse bodhicitta I hit a stone wall. But I think it's
better to recognise that you are not correctly motivated and to try to be correctly motivated
(even if it feels "weird") than to continue lashing out randomly and (obviously) causing
suffering.
Top

bySnamMonOct17,20118:56am
Ogyen wrote:
gregkavarnos wrote:
Practices aren't there to change "reality", they are there to help us
change the way we see "reality".
16/17
14/10/2558
Of course when we change our view of reality, this also changes the way
we act, and this in turn changes "reality".
But one thing you can't forget is that samsara is infinite, it'll always
throw something at us that we want to change, and then we just
practice some more...
ad nauseum...
Let's not delude ourselves, the path is the goal, the practice is the
outcome! Once we realise that then everything changes!
Holy crap Greg! I'm impressed with how much you've come to this simply! I can
recall a similar conversation like this some now 3 years ago and how different
your response was. Wow... like.. wow.
You've made my day! Thank you! You are the proof of this "reality" changing, I
see. My confidence in dharma is bolstered a touch more, may that benefit all
beings.
D.
agree!
Snam
Top
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14/10/2558

Lazy people should just give up, right?

Re: Lazy people should just give up, right? (#p61448)

padma norbu wrote:

Re: Lazy people should just give up, right? (#p61452)

Re: Lazy people should just give up, right? (#p61453)

padma norbu wrote:

Re: Lazy people should just give up, right? (#p61455)

Re: Lazy people should just give up, right? (#p61459)

Re: Lazy people should just give up, right? (#p61460)

Re: Lazy people should just give up, right? (#p61473)

padma norbu wrote:

Re: Lazy people should just give up, right? (#p61495)

padma norbu wrote:

Re: Lazy people should just give up, right? (#p61502)

Re: Lazy people should just give up, right? (#p61506)

Re: Lazy people should just give up, right? (#p61509)

Re: Lazy people should just give up, right? (#p61510)

So, they change reality.

Re: Lazy people should just give up, right? (#p61521)

Re: Lazy people should just give up, right? (#p61523)

Karma Dondrup Tashi wrote:

Re: Lazy people should just give up, right? (#p61541)

Karma Dondrup Tashi wrote:

Re: Lazy people should just give up, right? (#p61542)

padma norbu wrote:

Oh intentional. For me Dzogchen is the real magick.

Re: Lazy people should just give up, right? (#p61550)

Re: Lazy people should just give up, right? (#p61552)

padma norbu wrote:

Why? Because different beings have different defilements.

Re: Lazy people should just give up, right? (#p61553)

padma norbu wrote:

Buddhas are beyond the dualisms of path and goal.

I could become utterly brainwashed to be an automaton spontaneously

I would just be brainwashed and probably very wellbehaved but a strangely

Re: Lazy people should just give up, right? (#p61556)

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