IamNotaPhilosopher:AConversationwithNicolasBourriaud

byTomasiuelisandGintarMatulaityt

Source:
Echo Gone Wrong Magazine
(Nov. 2, 2015)
Stable URL:
http://www.echogonewrong.com/interview-from-lithuania/i-am-not-a-philosopher-a-conversation-with-nicolas-bour
riaud/
Accessed: 05-11-2015 16:00 UTC
Contact:
hello@echogonewrong.com

Duetotheoccasionofits10thanniversary,KaunasBiennialfeaturedastarcuratorNicolas
Bourriaudwhowasexpectedtoturnitintoanexceptionalandmemorableevent.Apparentlythis
aimwasachievedbecausevisitorsfrombothVilniusandKaunashadachancetoexperience
themselvesabitlikeforeigntouristscomingtoanothercountrytheformerbecauseofthenew
scenography,andthelatterbecauseoftheinfluxofnewfaces.Obviously,thepresenceof
Bourriaudwasasurprisetoeveryone.Drivenbycuriosity,wetooktheoccasiontoenquire
aboutthecuratorialpractice,conceptsandmotivationsoftheauthorof
TheRadicant
and
RelationalAesthetics
.Theconversationtoucheduponavarietyoftopicssuchascritiqueof
postmodernity,rolesofartistsandcurators,theproblemofrepresentation,abolitionofdistance,
andlossofuprootedness.Itisimportanttonotethatalltheinconsistencies,polemicpointsand
miscommunicationsthatpunctuatethisconversationarejustascrucialastheideasittouches
upon.Thediscussionisapartofamoregeneralenquiryby
EchoGoneWrong
intohowartists
findthemselveswithintheprearticulatedcontextsbroughtbycurators.Whatideasand
ideologiescanwefindbehindthecontemporarycuratorialpractices?
TheconversationwithNicolasBourriaudtookplaceinAugust2015,morethanamonthbefore
theopeningofthe
KaunasBiennial
.WemethiminadysfunctionalPostOfficebuildingthe
emptyroomsofwhichwereyettobefilledwithart.Asaguestcurator,Bourriaudwasworking
on
Threads:APhantasmagoriaAboutDistance
,whichwasoneofthemainshowsofthe
Biennial.

NicolasBourriaud
curator
GintarMatulaityt
editor(
EchoGoneWrong
)
Tomasiuelis
philosophyresearcher(UniversityofDundee)
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I
theradicanttheendofpostmodernityaltermodernity
lookingforthenewnessleavingforthedesert
Tomas:
Theparticularitiesofyourexhibitionarestillnotclearyet,sowewillprobablyhaveto
seetheexhibitioninordertotalkabouttheexhibition.Meanwhile,whatisinterestingnowis
thosefascinatingideasthatmoveandinspireyourreaders.Isupposeyouvebeenaskedabout
themalot,youexplainedtheseideasmanytimes.Everytimeislikearepetition.
Nicolas:
Thatsnotaproblembecauseyouneversayexactsamethings.
Tomas:
Thatstrue.Doyoufeellikeyouranswerschangeeverytime,isthereasortofa
development?
Nicolas:
Itslikeasystemofthought.Whateveritis,itslikeahumanbrain,youknowit
createsnewconnectionsallthetime.Thingsevolveslowly,thisishowthingsare.Soits
impossibletorepeatthesameideaexactlythesameway,youhavetoconsideritfroma
differentanglesometimesandthequestionsmightbedifferent,butitallowsyoutoexpressthe
sameideafromadifferentpointofview.Itshowsthatideasarealive,otherwiseideasthatcould
beseenonlyfromonepointofview,mightbealreadydead.
Gintar:
Consideringthat
TheRadicant
wasreleasedin2009,couldyousaythattheideaslike
radicantandaltermodernwentthroughanevolution?
N:
Yes,thesearedistinctnotions,Iwouldsay.Altermodernwasanattempttocreateabridge
fromwhatprovestobeakindofdeadend:postmodernismisadeadendforme,andtheidea
wastocreateawordasakeytoactuallygetoutofit.So,Altermodernisanattempttopass
fromthisprefixposttoanotherprefixthatwouldallownewideastoemerge.
Radicanthasatotallydifferentfunction,actually.Itfunctionsdifferentlyasaconcept,becauseit
isactuallyclearlylinkedtothevisionofmodernismandmodernity.Iwouldprefermodernity,
actually,becausemodernmeansbelongingtothepresent.Thatstheoriginalmeaningofthe
term.Modernis
modernus
inLatin.Soitsexactsynonymousofcontemporary,butithasbeen
usedtoqualifyaperiodoftimeandalsoasetofvalues,concepts,andattitudes,whichwere
characteristicofthisspecificperiod.Sotheprefixalterwasintendedtoopenupa
situationoneofconnectionsandnotoneofprogress,likeinmodernism,orthatkindof
permanentcombinationofpastlikepostmodernismwas.AndIsaywasbecauseformeitis
over.
T:
Thisisinteresting.Soinwayyouseemodernityasacertainmodethatcanberepeated.The
wayitcanberevivednowisnotinitshistoricalmode,orshallwesay,notasahistorical
motive.
N:
butmorelikeanattitudeorbehaviour,anattitudetowardsthepresentIlikethispassage
fromPeterSloterdijksbookonDerridawherehetalksaboutanexilefromEgypt.

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T:
Yes,PeterSloterdijks
DerridaTheEgyptian.

N:
ItisaboutleavingthebureaucraticEgyptbehind:thepyramids,thepriests,etc.Leavingthis
apparatusbehindandgoingintoadesertformeisthemostaccuratedefinitionofmodernism,of
beingmodernIwouldsay.Because
ism
isnottherightterm,beingmodernistoleavebig
architecturalinstitutionsbehindyouandleaveeverythingtofindsomethingnew,actually.There
isaversebyBaudellairewhichisgreat:divingintotheunknowntofindsomenewness.
T:
Butwhatdoesitmeantobeconcernedwithtoday,withthetimeofnow,orwiththemoment
ofnow,withnowness?Youusethismetaphorofleavingtheconstruct,thetown,leavingthe
bureaucracyandeverything[
N:
Itsthemainpattern].Butthisgestureofleavingisntitina
wayarefusalto
deal
withthesituationinstead?
N:
Ithinkitwouldbemorelikegoingawayfromtherarifiedandpetrifiedformsofournowand
beingabletoacquirethenewflexibilityforthemind.Ithinkthatsthemeaningoftheexileoutof
Egypt.
T:
Sothegestureofmovingawayisimportant.
N:
Movingawayandtryingtofindakindofadesert.Itisinterestingthatincontemporary
philosophy,forexample,thepattern,theimageofthedesertisverypresent,actually.Althusser
wassayingthatyouhavetocreateavoidinordertoaccessanykindofnew.Anditssomething
youcanfindinSlavojiekalsoitshisTheDesertoftheReal.ItscomingfromAlthusserfor
me,actually.Soitsnotrandom,itsnotaccidentalthatthemotiveofthedesertisbecoming
moreandmorepresent,becausethedesertistherarestthingtoday:aplacewherethereis
nothing
.
T:
Butwhatdoyouthinkishappeninginthedesertwiththesubject?
N:
Thatsthebigissue.Itsinterestingtoseewhathappenedhistoricallyindesertduringthe
exodus,forexample,ifwecomebacktothisoriginalscene.Becausewalking,hearingvoices,
dealingwithafewelements,likeabushor[
T:
phantasms]yes,phantasmsand
recreationsofnewvalues,neworderofthingsoutofnothing,outofsmallelementsthatcanbe
found.Andthatsthepassagefromthearchitecturetothebook,Iwouldsay,thatsexactlywhat
happenedhistorically:theoriginwasbasedonthebook[
T:
whichiscarriedaroundandread
byeveryone.]Exactly.[
T:
Insteadofbeingboundtoaplace]Yes,itsportable.

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II
aestheticthinking
vs
philosophicalthinkingtheroleofanartist
theproblemofrepresentationthesublimeabolitionofdistance
T:
Socanweperhapsjumpto[
N:
Now?[
laughs
]]Yes,tothenow.
G:
Soyoudidntreallyanswerthequestionhowtheseideasaremoderninawaythatthey
correspondtothenowanddidtheychangefromthepointwheretheyoriginatedandhow.
N:
IthinkthemostimportantthingistounderstandthatImnotaphilosopher.Iamanartcritic
andcuratorandIthink
as
acurator.SoalltheideasIcouldexpressaretranslationsofwhatI
seeinthestudiosandexhibitions,thatsreallyimportant.Idontinventtheconceptinorderto
applyittoartorartistitsexactlytheopposite.Itsawayofthinkingwhichisreallydifferent
fromaphilosophicalone.
T:
Soitsanaestheticthinking.
N:
Yes.Ithinkso,itsmybasis.ThesamewayLacancouldinventconceptsoutofthisvery
specificfieldwhichwaspsychoanalysis,inawayImtryingtodothesamefromart,aesthetics
andIthinkitislegitimatetodoso.Ithinkartisafantasticpointofviewfromwhichwecan
understandthenowandwherewecandwellin.Wecanreallyexpandartisticintuitionsand
waysofthinkingintomuchbroadercontextsandthenusetheseideasthatareuptoareaderto
understand.Butinawayitisalwaysaboutaconnectionbetweenartandsociety.
G:
Soyoutrustartandartiststoprovideyouwiththeexperiencesofcontemporarylife.Italso
meansyoutrustthesinceritywithwhichtheycomeupwithideas.Buttheyarealsoinfluenced
bytheseideas,sothereisatwowayprocess.Theyrenotjustexperiencinglifeasitis.
Sometimesartistswanttofitinthecontemporaneity.
T:
Sothequestionperhapsiswhetheranartistisseenasalitmuspaperofsomesort,anartist
asadetector,becauseshedetectssomethingavibe?Somethingishappeninginherworld,
andperhapsanartistisnotnecessarilyconsciousofwhatsheisactuallydoing?
N:
Sometimes,yes.Butitwouldbeabitreductivetoseeallartistsasakindofawarneror
whateverofthiskind,butifyou
read
whatisgoingonintheirstudiosandexhibitions,youcan
developaveryspecificvisionofourtimes.Sometimesanartistisnot
fully
awareofwhatheor
sheisdoing,yes,butsometimesheorshe
is
fullyaware,[
G:
toacertainextent]soyou
havemanymanyapproachestotheworldthatcantbereducedtoone.
G:
Butthenthereisaquestionofisolationoftheartworldand,mostimportantly,artworldis
alsopartoftheglobalmarket:quiteoftenartistsarenotinfullcontrolofwhattheyaredoing,itis
notfullyuptothemtodisruptthemarketrelations.Andwhenit
is
uptothem,theychoosein
favorofthemarket.
T:
Icomefromartbackgroundaswell,asIstartedmyeducationinartacademy,butIwentfor
theoryimmediatelyaftergraduation.Ioftentrytoreflectonmyownescapebecauseinaway
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formeitwasanescapefromEgyptintosomething:intothedesertofthereal,intodesertof
ideasinordertorethinkeverything.Irememberthoseconversationswithsomeoftheartists
abouttheissuesofrepresentation:itwasamotiveofanartistwhorepresents
something
consciously,unconsciously,perhapsitdoesntevenmatter,becausewhatdoes
matteristheresult.Thisissuerevolvesaroundhowandwhereartisticideasaredistributed,
underwhichconditions,whoisvisible,whoisnotvisible.Soitisoneofthekeyquestions:
representationandthevisibilityofthisrepresentation,howandwhereitcirculates,inwhich
circles.Sothesearetheconditionsofmyinterest.Suchfocusontheconditionsthemselvescan
revealsomethingaboutanartist,oraboutwhoisintheprocessofselectionorthedecisionto
participateornottoparticipate.WehadareallyinterestinginitiativeinLithuaniarecentlythere
isahugebookintwovolumes:
(In)dependentHistoriesofContemporaryArt
whichfocusedon
whatcanbecalledtheunrepresented.Whatorwhoisunrepresentedinart?Howdoesthis
unrepresentedremainoperativeintheofficialdiscourse,orhistoricaldiscourse?Itwasan
attempttocreateanalternativehistoryor,rather,torecognisethealternativehistoryandI
figureditwasoneofthoserareattempts,atleastinLithuanianrecentarthistory.
Ifounditinterestingthattherewasthisneedtodiscussthequestionofrepresentation.Another
exampleiswhenartistsparticipateinanevent,theyestablishaconnectionoralinkbetween
thecontentthattheyproduce(artitself)andthecontextthattheyuse.Thiscreatesacertain
structure:formandcontext.Itisareallysimplestructure,butthefactisthatonecannever
escapeit.Sothequestionis,howwethinkaboutthisstructure.Doesitrevealsomething?
N:
Toansweryourquestion,onehastoanalysethedifferentmodesofwhatusedtobecalled
representation.Iwouldsay,representationisjustoneaspectofartisticpractice.Sometimesit
canalsohappenthatanartist
presents
something:itspresentation,itstakingsomethingoutof
anycontext,outofafunctioningworldandpresentingit.Anartistsometimesdesignates
something,itisnotrepresentationanymore,whenartistdesignatesthesituation,indicatesa
waytowardsomethingelsethatisanotherfacetofart.Sometimesanartistusesalready
existingstructuresandthatsthewayheorsheisinvolvedinhisorherpractice:byusingthe
world,usingalreadyexistingstructures,usinginstitutions,usingtheapparatusofeverydaylife.
Thatsanotherpostulate.Soyouhavefourattitudesthatareequaltorepresentationin
contemporaryarttoday.Neitherofthemisstrongerthantheother.Theyallcoexist.
T:
So,whatisrepresentationtoyou?
N:
Representationisonefigureofthisworkofworkofweshouldprobablytrytofind
anotherwordforthis,becausepresentation,designation,usetheynolongerOK,
representationispresentationofadifferentaspectoftheworkof
showing.
Toshowsomething
iscompletelymultifacetedtoday.Everyexhibitionmostlyusesthesefourpossibleattitudes.
Andthenwecantalkaboutrepresentationthatisalsosomethingelsei.e.,whensomething
cannot
bepresented.ItsaKantiandefinitionofthesublimeinaway,itswhatLyotardwas
talkingaboutwhenhewasreferringtothesublime.So,presentingtheunpresentable.Andits
likeinaway,inLacanianpsychoanalysis,thenotionofthe
objetpetita:
somethingwhichis
alwaysmissingthatstherealinLacanianphilosophy.TheRealissomethingthatescapes,
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thatcannotbepresented,thatcanonlybeseenthroughanamorphosisandthatisalsoafigure
whichisverystrongincontemporaryart.Buttheyarenotexcludingeachother,no,allthose
figuresareactuallyaddingtooneanother.Ithink.
T:
IjustrememberedoneofyourpassagesonAlainBadiou.DidIsenseacertaincritique
towardsBadiou?
N:
Yes,ImnotalwaysagreeingwithBadiou.
T:
WhenBadiouspeaksaboutrepresentation,forhimthereisasituationanditsrepresentation,
whichiswhathecallsastate.Sotheresaneventandthereisalwayssomethinglikea
memoryofthiseventinarepresentation.
N:
Butwhatwecallrepresentationhereduringourdiscussionisnothingbutdistancebetween
whatislivedthroughoureverydaylifeassomethingrealandits[representation].Itsthe
distancethat[onecoversinorder]toseesomethinginanexhibition.Representationisonly
aboutdistanceandwhatwecallshowingsubsumesallthosefourdifferentattitudes.Itisa
distancingawayfromreality,itsacriticaldistance.Thatsthewaywecoulddefinewhatwesee
inexhibitions:sometimesthesearethesameobjectsweseeinoureverydaylifebutnowthey
areseenfromacriticaldistance.Itsverysimpleinaway,butIdontthinkthereisanyother
moreprecisedefinitionthatwouldembraceeverythingthatweseeincontemporaryart
exhibitions.
T:
Sodistanceisoneofthosekeywordsthatyouuseandperhapsforyouanartexhibitionis
oneofthewaystoseedistanceatwork?
N:
Andthatsalsoseenintheexhibitionhere,butitisseenfromatotallydifferentpointofview
whichistheideaof
phantasmagoria
whichforme(andthatsthekeyforthisexhibition)isalsoa
kindofancestorforthecontemporaryartinstallations.Fromtheveryendofthe18thcentury
thisveryspecificalmostephemeraltypeofeventsthatoriginatedinParisattheveryendof
the18thcentury,isveryimportantforme.Andthekeywordisdistancebecausethisiswhat
wasactuallyhappeningduringthelasttwocenturies:itistheabolitionofdistances.
T:
Letstalkaboutthisabolitionordisappearanceofdistance.Sothedistanceitselfvanishes,
butthereisaconditionofthisvanishing,whichisprimarilyatechnological,soperhapsitmeans
thatdistancewithdrawsintotheunconscious.PerhapsthisisalsoaHeideggerianmoment:it
wasHeideggerwhomadeusawareaboutthewithdrawalofatooloranobject.Forexample,
youarenotawareaboutthechairuntilImentionthechairthisiswhatwithdrawalisfor
Heidegger.Abolitionofdistanceperhapshappensinthesamefashion,becausewecannot
escapetheconditionsofthisdisappearance.Todaywetraveleasily:wesimplyboardtheplane
andtheworldbecomesaccessiblebecauseofthat.Thisisnotanythingnew,theveryideaof
technologicalconditioningdoesnotgiveusanythingnewphilosophically,butwhatactuallyis
interestingishowartcontributestothis:howtheverystructureofartcontributestothose
conditionsofabolishingthedistance?Thereissomethinginart,thatalwaysseemstoresistthe

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technologicalconditioning:itcanquestionit,itcanrefuseit,itcandistanceitselffromit,butat
thesametimewehaveaparadoxartcannotdowithouttechnology.
G:
Andthisishowitalso
provides
distance.
T:
So,theabolitionofdistance.
N:
ItsacrucialquestionIthink.LetsthinkaboutthedefinitionoftheaurabyWalterBenjamin,a
uniqueapparitionofsomethingwhichfarawaythatsexactlywhathasbeenabolishedin
contemporaryartinthelast30years,Iwouldsay.Itsnotauniqueapparitionofsomething
whichislocatedfarawaysometimesitcanbesomethingveryclosetousandreproducedone
milliontimes.Wearelivinginatotallydifferentvisualandintellectualcontextcomparedtothe
timeofBenjamin.Theroleofreproductionhastotallychanged,andthatisthenewparadigm
thatanartisthastoaddresstoday.
TheexhibitionIntenseProximitythatOkwuiEnwezordidinPariswasalsoaboutthiscollapse
ofdistance.Basedontheanalysisofanthropologyandethnology.Goingfarawaytobringback
imagesanddocumentsaboutthewaypeoplewereactuallyliving.Today,whatisreallystriking,
isthattechnologyisinyourpocket:wehavesmartphonestotakepictures
G:
yes,ifyouareluckytohavethem
N:
wehavecomputerstorecordimages.Imagesareabsolutelyeverywhere:Facebookand
allthesocialnetworksareprovidinguswithtonsandtonsofimagesfromeverywhereinthe
worldeveryday.Itisexactlythiscollapseofdistancethathasbecomeareality.Itissomething
thatallofuslivewithonadailybasis.Andthatcreatesthecontextwhichisradicallydifferent
fromthe20thcentury.Wehavetoaddressthatandtakethatintoaccountifyouwantto
understandtheevolutionoftheaura.
Youwerementioningtheroleofartinthiserasureofdistance.Languagewasoriginallyawayto
destroydistance:whenyouwriteatextyoucantalkabout,say,azigguratofBabylonwhile
beinginKaunas.Itisanabolitionofdistance.Andartistsareaddressingrealitieswhicharevery
farfromthem.Butwhatisactuallyinterestingisthatmodernisminthe20thcenturywasactually
basedonthereflectionaboutdistance.WehaveartworksthatLszlMoholyNagymadeby
telephoneinthe1930sasfarasIknow,thesewerethefirstonesofthiskind.Inthe1960sit
allowedLawrenceWeinertoworkinthesameway:hecanbeinNewYorkanddoashowin
Amsterdambecauseitisallaboutlanguage.Andyoucanreproducethelanguage.EvenSol
LeWittwasworkinginthesameway.
TodayIamshowingapiecebyLiamGillick,whoisveryclosetoWeinerandthatsnot
accidentalheisshowingapiececreatedbycorrespondencethatcouldalsobecollaborated
byothers.Weareinaveryinterestingdialecticsbetween
here
and
there
allthetime.Andthats
alsooneofthemainissuesoftheexhibition.

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III
critiqueofpostmodernitycritiqueofpresencedemandofpresenceinartactofresistance
critiqueoftheoriginaryDerridaandlanguagetargetsofaltermodernistcritique
postmodernismasideologyeconomicalcrisesandpostmodernism
T:
Oneofthepoints[inyourbook]isthecritiqueofpostmodernity.Thisisoneofthose
interestinghotpoints.Imustrecallherethewholepostmodernistprojectofcritiqueofpresence.
ItisalloverintheworksofanypostHeideggerianuptoDerrida.Theabsenceofdistanceorthe
vectorthatdrawsyoutothisstateofdistancelessnessispreciselywhattheywerecriticising.
N:
Butartwasandstillislinkedtothenotionofpresence:youhaveto
go
toanexhibition.
Seeinganartworkonthescreenisnotenough,youhaveto
seeit
.Exhibitionisoneofthelast
placeswhereyouhavetomovetowardstheplaceinordertoseesomething.Cinemaisslowly
vanishing,thetheatreisstillthere,ofcourse,buttheverylastplacewherepresencehas
somethingtodowithourunderstandingofthelanguagewhichispresentediscontemporaryart.
Exhibitionsarealsosmalltemporarytemplesplacestogo.ThatisthewayGeorgesBataille
wasdefiningthemuseumasakindoflungthecitygoesintothislunginordertohavesome
air,inordertobreathe,torefreshitself.
Butofcoursewithinthisstructureofpresenceartistsarecriticisingthisnotionofpresence.And
itisaveryinterestinghistoricalmoment.Thestructureofdistributionofartworksdemandsour
presence,whileartistsarecriticisingthispresence.
T:
Whatdoyoumeanbydemandsourpresence?
N:
Onehastoseetheartwork.Youreceiveaninvitationforanexhibitionthatsthedemand.
Youarenotsupposedtostayathomeandlookatthewebsite.Notyet!Itwillhappen.
G:
Presencehastodowithourbody.
N:
Yes.Andalsoitisanactofresistanceonehastotakethisintoconsideration.Everythingis
madetodayinordertoeraseourbodyorournervoussystem.Accordingtothelogicof
entertainment,youarenotsupposedtobringyourbodyinmanyplacestoday,bodilypresence
issomethingthathasbecomerare.Workingwithoneshandcanalsobeanactofresistancein
certainsituations.Resistancetowardstotalmechanisationoftheproduction.
T:
Sothisisreflectedinthenewtrendofthemakermovementwhichcallsforjustmaking
thingsmanually.Sothelastbitaboutthecritiqueofthepostmodernism.Inyourbookyou
mentionthecritiqueoftheoriginary.
N:
Yeah.Itisacommonpointinallmytexts.
T:
Doyouseethedependenceontheoriginaryasoneofthedefiningtraitsoftheperiodthat
respondedtomodernityi.e.,postmodernism?

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N:
Yeah,Ithinkso.Atleastoneimportantpartofpostmodernismwasbasedonidentities,on
thevindicationofidentities,anditalwayshassomethingtodowithorigins,andthatswhatIam
criticising.Manypostmodernmodesofthinkinghavebeenbasedonakindofassignationof
residenceforthepeoplee.g.,ifyoubelongtosuchandsuchminority,itsenoughtodefine
youridentityIdontagreewiththat.Identitiesareconstructionsanditismuchclosertothe
queerwayofthinkingthantomostofthepostcolonialthinking,forexample.
T:
WhatdoyouthinkaboutJudithButlersnotionof[sexual]identity[asaperformative
construct]then?
N:
Yeah,Ithinkitisclosetothiswayofthinkingactually.Muchmorethanmanypostcolonial
systemswhicharebasedonthefetishizationoftheorigin,andthatiswhatIthinkisobsolete
nowandwehavetogothroughitinordertofindnewwaysofthinking.
T:
ButisntitinterestingthatbothDerridasandButlersandmanyotherscritiquesoftheideaof
theoriginaryalsoyoucanfinditinDerridaalotcomesfromwhatwecallpostmodernism?
N:
Notreally,IthinkDerridaiscomingfromstructuralismneverforgetthat,itsreallyimportant.
T:
Thatistrue.ButthatwasnotwhatImeant.
N:
Hewasincorporated,includedinwhatscalledpostmodernity,butinmanywayshesbeyond
that.
T:
SoisitthatDerridamakesadetouroverwhatwecallpostmodern?
N:
Derridaispostmoderninonespecificwaywhichissuperimportantinhiswork:itisthefact
thathehasactuallycreatedakindofclosedterritorywhichislanguage.Fromthevery
beginningofhisworktherewasnothingoutsidethetext,youcannotgetoutofthetext,andthat
isverypostmoderninaway.Thiswayitispostmodern,butmanyofhisconceptsandideasare
actuallycomingfromtheEcolenormalesuperieurewherehestudiedtogetherwithMichel
FoucaultandLouisAlthusserwhowerealreadyatthattimeteachingthere.Youcanseethe
structureinhisfirsttext
OfGrammatology
.
T:
Sobasicallyhiscritiqueoftheoriginaryis,shallwesay,correctalthoughIdontlikethis
word,butletsusethiswordfornowitiscorrectbutthetoolsheisusingortheconceptual
groundingisrestrictivebecauseitislanguage.
N:
Formehewasalwaysalmostjailedinthispanlinguisticvisionoftheworldwhichisvery
structuralistactually,andnotpostmodernatall.Itssomethingyoucanfindinthelegacyofthe
firstwaveofstructuralismRomanJakobson,etc.
T:
Sowhowouldbethepostmoderntargetsofouraltermoderntimestoday?
N:
Goodquestion,butdifficulttoanswer.

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T:
Perhapsbroadly.
N:
IthinkstrangelyenoughIshouldgiveitmoretimebecauseitisaverywidequestion.But[in
generalthetargetisa]specifictypeofdiscoursewhichissharedbymanyratherthanonetwo
orthreethinkers.Itsmorelikeaformofideology,Iwouldsay.Strangelyenough,
postmodernismismuchmoreanideologythansomeonesarticulatedthought.Itsspreadout,
itsnotgoingfromoneortwospecificsources,itsthecombinationofmanysourcesthatcreate
adiscoursewhichhasbecomeanideology.
T:
Soitsalsodifficulttodefinethepointintimewhenpostmodernismcrystalliseditself.
N:
Butthetermjustappearedinthemid70sanditisinterestingtoseethatitwasexactlyatthe
momentoftheoilcrisesintheWesterncountries,whichhappenedexactlyin1973.Andthen
veryshortlyafterthatWesterncountriesunderstoodthatoilwasnotinfinite,youcouldnotspoil
tonsandtonsofenergy,itsnotpossibleanymore.Progress,asitwasunderstoodinthe
modernisttimes,wasover.AndthenecologyappearedbothinEuropeandinAmericaatthis
exactmoment.Thepoliticalecologyappearedasasharedconsciousness.Thatsavery
importantmoment.
T:
Sothissharedconsciousnessisoneofthosetargetsofanaltermoderncritique.Thisisthe
kindofstatethatyouwanttoturnyourselfagainstinaway.
N:
Absolutely.Butthemaineffectoftheoilcriseswasthefinancialisationoftheeconomy.
Suddenlyitwasnotbasedontheexploitationofthespecificsoilbutonthetransformationofthe
financialsystemintosomethingtotallyabstract.ThatiswhatAmericadid,whileJapanwentinto
technology,andEuropebasicallywentintothefinancialsystemtoo.1973wastheyearwhen
stateshadtoborrowmoneyfrombanksinsteadofproducingmoneybythemselves.Thatisa
historicdatebecausethecrisisof2008isbornexactlyin1973.ThatiswhyItendtoandI
knowitsabitartificialbutItendtosaythatpostmodernismlastedfrom1973till2008because
itwasbasedonaveryspecificideaofthefinancialsystemwhichcollapsedcompletelyin2008.
Well,maybeitdidnotcollapse,butatleasttherewasahugecrisiswhichtransformedtheworld
completelyjustseewhatishappeninginGreeceatthemoment.Sotheideathatsoilwasnot
important,thegroundwasnotimportantanymore,theRealwasnotimportantanymoreall
thatappearedin1973.Onemightevensaythatsincethentheendofpostmodernism[in
2008]weareslowlygettingbacktotheReal,butinmanyways,notinacaricaturalway.We
wanttofindsomethingmoresolid
T:
Soperhapsthisishowwecanactuallyconnectittothespeculativeturn,andtheturntoward
therealinphilosophy.
N:
Yes,absolutely.Itsasideeffectofit.

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IV
theproblemofrootsplasticityphantompainofanamputatedroot
treatingthelossofuprootednessthedualismofglobalisationandfundamentalism
theneedtoescapefromthedualismfalseideaofcontemporaryart
T:
Perhapsnowwecanjumptoanothertopic.Letstalkaboutyourideaofaradicant.Inyour
bookyoulaunchacritiqueofrootednessandyouinsistonthedisappearanceofrootsoratleast
thelossofimportanceofroots.Youdescribeitinaveryvisualmanner,soitseasytostart
thinkingaboutthisnotionintermsof,forexample,Deleuzeandrhizomaticnetworks.Thenotion
ofrhizomehasbeenexploitedalot,butthewayyouintroduceyourconceptisquite
paradoxical.Say,ifIamaradicant,insteadofputtingdownrootsdeepintothesoil,Iam
growingmyrootsonthesurface.ThatwayIcanmovearoundandadapttoanyotherarea.Iam
nolongertiedtoaspecificplace.
N:
Onecanalsoconsiderdifferentuprootings(plural)[oroffshoots].Itsimportanttothinkthat
thesethingsarenotexclusiveonetoanother:theideaofradicantisthehorizontalisationof
oneswayofthinking,onesownlifeinaway,itsnottheverticalityoftheplaceonewasbornat,
ortheplaceonedecidedtolive.Uprootingisveryvertical,whileradicantoffersaveryhorizontal
plain.
T:
Sotherootdoesnotdisappearafterallitchangesinstead.
N:
Therearemultipleroots.Ifyoutaketheivy,forexample,togobacktoanimage,itdoes
haveroots,butitdependsonthesoil.Onsomesurfacesivywouldgrowonlyareallysuperficial
root,whileinamorefertilegrounditcangrowamuchdeeperroot.Itsnotrootsagainst
uprooting,itsmorecomplexthanthat.Ithinkthiscomplexityreflectsthecomplexityofthe
subjectinaway.
T:
ItmademethinkimmediatelyaboutwhatCatherineMalabouisworkingon.
N:
Plasticity.
T:
Plasticity,exactly.
N:
Notsuperfamiliarwithitbut
T:
Thisidearesonateswiththenotionofaradicantalot,althoughIamnotentirelysure
becauseIdidnotfamiliarisemyselfwiththenotionofaradicantwellenough.Thethingisthat
Malabouborrowsthetermplasticityfromneuroscience,andinFrench
plastique
alsomeans
plasticexplosive.Butthemainideaisthatweareallplasticinthesensethattogobackto
thelanguageweusedjustaminuteagowehaverootsandwedouprootourselves,butonly
foracertainperiodoftimeuntilsomethinghappens,untilwehavetorelocatebecauseofsome
catastrophe.

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N:
Exactly,thentheivydoesnotdie,itsurvivesandevolves,becauseifyoucuttheoriginalroot
ofanivy,itstillgoeson.Ithinktohavemultiplerootsistheonlywaytosurvivethe
disappearanceofyourorigins.
T:
Butthekeydifferencebetweenthoseideasisthatinplasticitythereisstillthislinearity.
MalabouclaimsthatyoucannotbeplasticinthesensethatIammultipleinmanyplacesatthe
sametime.Itsnotwhatbeingplasticmeans.
N:
Thenthedifferenceformeisthattheideaofaradicantrepresentsaramifiedline.Inradicant
youhaveramifications,butitisstillalineaswell,sotheyarenotopposed.Itsimportanttoget
outofthebinaryoppositionshere.Ithinkoneofthecharacteristicsofpostmodernthinkingis
binarismofyes/no.Alineisnotnecessarilyopposedtoatree.Theverypatternoftheradicant
combinesthetwoactually.Andthatiswhatinterestsmealot.Inawayonecanseeatreeasa
line:thedirectionisalwaysthesamebutitdoesramifyandthetwoarenotopposite.
T:
Thereisthisinterestingpassagefromyourtextabouttheradicant,Iquote:Itisrootsthat
makeindividualsuffer.Inourglobalisedworldtheypersistlikephantomlimbsafteramputation
1
causingpainimpossibletotreatsincetheyaffectsomethingthatnolongerexists.
N:
Thatstheunhappyexile,theunhappyemigration,andthatisaverycontemporary
phenomenon.
T:
Sodoyouthinkthereisawaytothinkaboutsomenewmodethatwouldcureortreatthis
phantompain,thisloss,thislack?
N:
TheRadicant
waswritteninthisway.
T:
Doyouseeitasasomesortofatreatmenttherapyorpsychoanalysis,ifyouwill?
N:
Oh,IwouldntgothatfarWell,psychoanalysismaybe,yeah.MaybeitssomethingIam
quitefamiliarwith,soinawayyes,thisdiscoursemightbesomehowlinkedto
psychoanalysisakindofpsychoanalysisofthecollectivediseasewhichisbasedonthe
fetishisationofrules.ThereisatwofoldenemyIamfightingagainstin
TheRadicant:
oneisthe
normalisationandstandardisationoftheworldaccordingtowhatscalledglobalisationandthe
otheroneisthefetishisationoftherootsinnationalism,variousreligiousfundamentalisms,etc.
Thesetwowaysaremyenemies,soyouhavetofindthethirdwaybecausewhatweactually
seearoundusnowisthemixofglobalisationandfundamentalism.
T:
Iagree.Perhapsthisiswhatmakesthisideasovibrant:youtalkaboutglobalismbutatthe
sametimeyoustillusethenotionofroot.Butthediscussionorthinkingdoesntstophere,we
stillhavealotofquestions.Forexampleitmightseemthatthe
radical
(sic!)leftistpoliticscan
turntowardssomesortofaweirdnationalismwhenitappealstoacertainuprootednessthisis
whatwesawinGreecerecently.Itneverhappenedbefore,atleasttothatextent.PerhapsI
senseasimilarkindofthinkinghereinLithuaniaaswellbecauseontheonehandleftistthought
goesabsolutelyagainstanykindofnationalismoranykindoffundamentalfixation,itsbeen

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criticisedthroughoutforacoupleofdecadesnow,butontheotherhandwesticktoitwhenwe
opposeglobalisation.Whatcanbecriticisedisthefalsesolutionthatwehaveovercomethe
problemsofnationalismthroughbeingtrulyglobal.Iguessthoseproblemshavebecomemore
complex.Iamalwayssuspiciousaboutanykindofsolutionitisneverasolution,itsalwaysa
process.
N:
But
TheRadicant
callsforindividualsolutionsorcollectiveonesbutinsmallergroups.Itis
notabouttryingtoavoidspecificallythisdisasteroftheuniformisationoftheworldwhichisnot
theanswertotheradicalfundamentalismsornationalisms.Weshouldntjailourselvesorlock
ourselvesupintothisdilemmabetweenglobalisationandfundamentalism.Itsurgenttofind
otherways,otherwiseweareallcondemned.SoartisimportantherebecauseIthinkthe
solutionwillcomeonlyfromcreativity.Assumingthefactthateveryexistenceisaconstruction
andacreation,itmeansitisalsorelatedtoart,andthatiswhyIam[mediating]forartoreven
forapoliticalscene.Itisreallyimportanttoaddressitandproposesolutions,andartistsdo,
actually.
T:
Forexample,oneoftheproblemsartistsareaddressinghereinLithuaniaiswhetherto
participateinthealreadyconstructedandeasytoaccessinternationalmodelofexposurethis
issomethingIhavebeenworkingonrecentlyaswell,Iamstilltryingtogetmoreinformationin
ordertoresearchthisproblem.Howeveritisquiteobviousthatthereisadilemmaand
perhapsitsnotawellrepresenteddilemma,itsnotveryofficialdilemma,butitsalwaysthere.
Once,whileIwasstillstudyingattheAcademyofArts,Iwaseventoldbyoneofmylecturers
thatanartisttodayhastochoosebetweendoingmarketablecontemporaryartandthus
becomingacontemporaryartist,andjustdoingherownthing.
N:
Thatscrazy.Thatsbasedonatotallyfalseideaofwhatcontemporaryartis.
T:
Whatiscontemporaryart?
N:
Itisartthatismadetoday.Idonthaveanotherdefinitionforit.Itsnotagenreofwork.What
isgenre,actually?Inmyexhibitionsyouhaveasmuchpaintingsorvideoartorperformanceart.
Idontseethedifference.
G:
Theproblemlieselsewhere.
T:
Yeah,Iwasaddressingadifferentproblem.
N:
Artisnotamedium.
T:
Itsnotamedium,itsnotagenre.Ofcourse,ifonedoesherarttoday,everythingonedoes
asanartistiscontemporary.Thequestionishowdoesoneseeit.
N:
Butifoneincorporatesideologywithinonesworkitmeansoneisabadartist.
G:
Butcanideologybeavoided?

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N:
Themaincriteriatojudgeanartworkformeisthissingularityofthepropositionwhichis
made.IfIalreadysawitonehundredtimesitsnotinterestingtomeatall.Singularityisthekey.
IfIdiscoversomeonewithanattitude,inventingformsthatIneversawbeforethatswhatis
calledqualityasfarasIknow,Idonthaveanyothercriteria.Sometimesitsnotamatterof
correspondingtosuchandsuchcriteria.Singularityisthekeyword.

V
singularityhowtogrowatomato
T:
Whatissingularity?Canyouelaboratealittlebitonit?
N:
Singularityistheimpressionyougetfromanartistwhoseworkcouldnotexistifshewasnt
doingit,thatsverysimple.Itsthesamewhenyoumeetpeopleitsnotaboutseductionatall.
Singularityisdifficulttoexplain,singularityisexactlylikewehaveitinthedictionarythefact
thatsomethinghasnotbeenseenorheardbefore.
T:
Didyouborrowthistermfromsomewhere?
N:
No,itsreallyaboutbeingsingular.Acollectivekindofsingular.Itsnotamatterof
individualism,butyoucanbeinagroupofartistsandbetotallysingular.
T:
Ifinditveryinterestingthewayweusesingular.Irememberimmediatelythat,forexample,
AlainBadioufindsitverycomplicatedandproblematictotalkabout
the
One,
the
singular.
N:
Yes,Iknow,itsalwaystwo.
T:
Itslikecountingtooneisthemostdifficultthing,andperhapsitisalsoanimpossiblethingto
do.
N:
Butperhapsitsnotcontradictorybecauseanysingularityhastofinditscounterpartinthe
audienceinaway.Singularityismoreofasituation,itsalwaysaboutaconfrontationof
someoneinfrontofsomething.Oritisasituationthatiscreatedbyanartist.
T:
Soitsaconjunction.
N:
Itisaconjunction,ofcourse,becausenoworkexistsifitsnotseenorapprehendedby
someone.Thatisadefinitionofartinaway.Icoulddefinesingularityabitmorepreciselyifyou
want.Thereisanumberinmathematicswhichisomega,thecipheromegaisthesumofallthe
numbersplusone[+
1,
orinfinityplusone].Artandwhatissingularityinartisthisplus
one,thisimpressionthatyouseesomethingthatyouhaventseenbefore,thatsthewayI
woulddefinesingularity,itsthisomeganumber.

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G:
Ivewrittendownanexampleifwemaygobacktotheproblemofuprootingasasortof
linkingyourselfgeographicallyaswellasyourownidentity.Youcompareradicanttoaplant
N:
Itsabotanicaltermwhichisinthedictionary,Ididntinventit.
G:
Soweknowthattheplantdoesntgrowfromroots,itdoesntstartthere.
N:
Itdoes.
G:
Butitcomesfromtheseedandthen,asanupperpartoftheplantgrowsabovethesurface,
therootgrowsaswellinordertoprovidetheplantwithnutritionwhichisnecessaryfortheplant
tostayalive.SoIjusthavethisvisualexampleofafarmingpracticethatisbasedondepriving
theplantofwater.Forexample,ifyouregularlywateratomato,itsrootwillspreadonthe
surfaceinordertoabsorbasmuchwaterasitcanquickly,becausethesurfaceofthesoildries
out.
N:
Formethatsglobalisationexactly,thatisthebestimageofglobalisation:therootsarenot
intoanysoilbuttheyarejustfedwithchemicals,abstractchemicals,recreatingthequalitiesofa
soil.Soontheonehandyouhavethispostmoderntomato,andontheotherhandanother
enemyformeisthebigtreewithonerootbecausethatiswhatwecallradical,itsradicalism.
T:
Yes,theradics.
N:
Thatsoneroot.
G:
IfImaycontinuewiththatexampleabouttomatoesWhatisinterestinginthetomatocase
isthatitispossibletogrowthemdifferently.Insteadofwateringitregularlyyouwateritonly
onceandcoverthesoilwithhayassoonasthetomatohasbeenplanted.Thiswayitsroots
growdeepintothesoilbecausewhenthereisnoartificialwateringitneedstofinditsnatural
sourceofhydration.
N:
Sure.
G:
Theprocedureofwateringisartificial.Itsnotnaturalbecausethewholesystemofwatering
needstobetakencareofconstantly.Butthepointishowtohaveasystemthatisselfsufficient
andefficientenough,becausealargeamountofenergyiswastedforcareandmaintenanceof
theartificialwateringsystem.
N:
Absolutely.
G:
Whichisnotnecessaryorefficientatallinthecaseofatomato.Iwastoldbyaselftaught
gardenerthatwhenshesharedthisnonwateringideawithothergardeners,theywerereluctant
toapplyittheypreferedwateringtonotwatering.Surprisingly,theyfoundwatering
convenient.Perhaps,itisbecausewateringgivespeoplesomesenseofoccupationand
relief

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T:
andasenseofcontribution.
G:
Anditisarelieffromthinkinginaway.Soitispainfulandhardtodothinkingthatwould
changethesystem.Sothequestionperhapswouldbeiftheideaofradicanthelpsustothink
aboutsystematicchangeorisitaboutdescribingthenewstateoftheworldi.e.,thestatethat
changesrapidlybyitselfduetothetechnologicaladvancement?Doesthisideaprovideuswith
toolsforimplementingthechange?
N:
Ithinkthekeypatternforthetimestocomeisthecombinationofthetwo:technologyplus
theacknowledgementofspecificsituations.Differencescannotbeerasedbysomenewkindof
watersystemfortomatoes,sotospeak.Thedangerliestheretoo.

VI
technologiesastoolstheuseoftoolsphantasmagoriathePostOfficebuilding
curatorialpracticechoosingartistscuratorasaconductorcommissionedart
T:
IfoundareallyinterestingpassagefromGaryZhexiZhangsarticleonpostinternetartabout
thistechnologyproblem.Thearticleiscalled
PostInternetArt:YoullKnowItWhenYoullSee
It
.Itsabouttheaestheticsofpostinternetart,andthereisaninterestingpassage:Artmight
liketotalkaboutwhatitfeelsliketolivethroughsocialmediabut,byandlarge,artistsfind
themselvescomplicitlikeeveryoneelse,theyarealwaystwelvestepsbehindthetech
companies,theparametersoftheirfreedomareestablishedelsewhere.Soheisvery
consciousaboutthisproblemthatwealwayshavetobetechnological,buthowtobe
technologicalwithoutbeingbehindthesolutionsthathavebeenalreadycreatedforus?Thisis
theproblemthatweperhapscannotescape,orcanwe?
N:
Wecan,becausetechnologiesaretools.Themainissueisthewayweusethetools,whats
theideologybehindthetools.Anytoolfromahammertoourmostadvancedtechnological
devicetodayisexactlythesame.Theyaretools.Howdoyouusethemandforwhatpurpose?
Thekeyproblemisintheideology,thenintheideas.Peopledontwanttoseeitbecausethey
tendtofollowthedominantideologywhichprovidestheuseforthosetools.Butactuallywecan
reversethat.Themostaccuratepoliticaltaskforthecontemporaryartistobecomeakindof
editingtableforunproducednewscenariosfromthesameimages.Dominantideologyprovides
specificscenariosincludingscenariosfortelephones,fortools,forart,forhumanrelationships.
Arthastoreinventthesescenarios,rewritethecommonscenario,andprovideadifferentuse
forallthetoolswehave,andthatisaverypoliticaltask,andthatisthemainpolitical
taskevenmorepoliticalthancriticisingthegiven.Itsaboutproducingakindofnew
philosophyoftheuseoftheworldingeneral,andthetools,inparticular.
T:
Sowhatisthemostimportantthinginusingsomething?

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N:
Theuseiseverythingforme.Itsthealphaandomegainaway.Whatelsedowehavein
ourlivesotherthanusing?Weuseatable,weusethiscoffeecup,youareusingthiscomputer,
weareusingwordstodiscussandexchangeideas.Weareusingthetoolsthatwehave,and
thatisthecoreofcontemporaryartforme.
G:
Maybeletsshiftnowtothisparticularexhibition.In2012inKlaipdatherewasanexhibition
calledThePrestige:PhantasmagoriaNowwherethemotiveofphantasmagoriaemergedas
well.WehavethesameconceptusedintheKaunasBiennialexhibition,soIwaswondering
whetherthereisarelationbetweentodaysartandphantasmagoria.Especiallygiventhat
phantasmagoriadoesnotjustcarryfeaturesofbothmovieandinstallations,butitalsoisor
couldbeassociatedwithaformofentertainment.
N:
Formenotatall.Iwroteatextforthisexhibition,butthefunnythingisthatItotallyforgotto
mentionthisinit.Sometimesphantasmagoriaformeitsnotaboutentertainmentatall,itsnot
atthislevelIamusingthisterm.
T:
Isitthisscaryaspectthat?
N:
No,itsjustthefactthatitwasinventedbyRichardsonthisverystrangeBelgianguywho
cametoParisattheveryendofthe18thcentury.Hewasactuallyinhabitingoldbuildingsin
Parisinordertocreateakindofenvironment.So,structurallyspeaking,hewastheancestorof
whatwecallinstallationorenvironments.Andtheothercharacteristicswasthatitwasallvery
muchbasedontheideaofcallingthespiritsandabolishingthedistancebetweenthelivingand
thedead.
T:
Thatwasaverypopularmotiveatthetime.
N:
AnditisthisnotionIamusinghere.InawayitisacommentonAbyWarburgsquote
telephoneandtelegraphdestroythecosmos.Itisaninterestingquote.Inawayitwasa
startingpointforthisshow.Whatdoesitmean?Canwenowhaveadifferentpointofviewon
this?Maybetelegraphandtelephone,tousehiswords,arenotdestroyingthecosmosbut
creatingsomethingdifferentwhichisnotpurelydestructiveornegativebutsomethingthat
wouldleadtoanotherperceptionofthecosmos.Butitisinterestingtoseehowthisis
happeninghereintheThreadsexhibitionattheKaunasPostOffice.
T:
Verymuchso.
N:
Itsabsolutelyperfectformebecauseitsbothaswesaidbeforecommunicationandthe
destructionofcommunication:thisoldPostOfficewasaplacebothforcommunicationandfor
jammingtheWesternradiosignalslikethoseofTheVoiceofAmerica.
T:
Isthisfactgoingtobeincludedinsomeway?
N:
ItsincludedinawaythatIwanttokeepthebuildingexactlyasitis.Itsnotgoingtobe
transformedintoawhitecube.

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G:
Itwouldnotevenbepossiblebecauseitsaheritagebuilding.
N:
Wearegoingtohavesomewhitewallswhenneeded.Icouldhavetransformeditintoa
whitecube,butIwanttokeepitasareadymadeinaway.Itsnotapostmodernexhibition.A
postofficeexhibitionthatssomethingverydifferent.
G:
Nowapracticalquestionregardingthecommunicationandthedisruptionofcommunication.
Itoftenhappensthattheinvitedcuratorsdotheirresearchintothelocalartscenethrough
assistanceorevenjustbyaddressingcontemporaryartinstitutionsandKaunasBiennialis
itselfaninstitutioninawaylikeNationalGalleryofArt,orContemporaryArtCentre,ortheir
curatorsbecauseofthelackoftimeor
T:
becauseitismoreconvenient.
G:
InapressconferenceofaBiennialthisJanuaryyousaidthatyoudontcareaboutthebig
namesbutitsusuallythebigorbiggernamesthatappearonthelistsoftherecommended
artiststhatgainedthetrustoftheinstitutionsinaway.Ontheonehand,wecanalsosaythatit
ispreciselythecorrectkindofartiststhatareincludedtothelisti.e.,thosewhowerefitto
representtheideologyoftheseinstitutions.Ontheotherhand,theseartistsmadeittothelist
becausetheyareworthoftheattention,becausetheyarerelevant(again,accordingtothose
whohavebeentrustedtogiveanadvice).SointhecaseofThreadsandKaunasBiennial,
howthisseeminglytechnicalissueofresearch,communicationandselectionofparticipants
wassolved?
N:
AsacuratorIamdoingtheresearchmyselfactually,somyassistantMariana,sheismainly
workingonproduction,relationswiththeartists,etc.SothatisthewayIwork.Somepeoplecan
workdifferentlybutmyjob,mythingisto
G:
toengagewithartistsdirectlyandspeakabouttheirwork,theirpractice?
N:
Sure,otherwisewhatisthecurator?Theonewhoorganisesallthoseelementsinorderto
createaspecificmeaninginaspecificplace.Justlikeamoviedirector.
T:
Adirector?
N:
Yeah,itsnotthatfarfromit,therearemanysimilarities.
T:
Irememberinoneofyourinterviewsyousaidsomethingaboutthecuratorassomeonewho
orchestrates,whoiscreatinganoperawhilethemusiciansarestillonstageorsomethinglike
that.
N:
IthinkIwasaddressingtheideathatjustlikeintheoperaonecaneitherfollowalibretto,
astoryline,anarrativeornot,actually.Agoodexhibitioncouldbevisitedbothways.
G:
Sowhoisthecomposerinthiscase?Ifacuratorisaconductorandtheartistsare
musicians

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N:
Theequivalentofthecomposeristheeditionofallthevoicesoftheartists.
T:
Soitssomesortofaloop.
N:
Thereisnocomposer,themusiccomesfromtheartists,Iamonlyheretoprovidethe
storylineortheelementsthatstickallthosevoicestogetherinaspecificsituation.Andthe
nightmareofthesekindofshowsistodecidewhatworkyouwillseenextduringtheshow.
T:
Youmeanthechallengeofhowtoarrangeanarrative?
N:
Narrativemightnotbetheexacttermforitactually,becauseitisnotaboutastory,its,lets
say
T:
Asequence?
N:
Itcanbeatheoreticalstoryorjustathemeoranideathatactuallymakesthemeaningmove
slightlytowardsoneaspect.
G:
tocontinuethisexampleofanoperaisntthereariskofartandexhibitionsbecomingfor
artssake?
N:
Forartssake?Forwhichothersakedoyouwanttomakeanexhibition?
G:
Tohelpussurviveinaway.Forthesakeofhavinganexperienceoflife
N:
Butthesame[iswith]artists,[they]havetosurviveifitsagoodart.
T:
Ifitsagoodart?
G:
Butwhodecidesthen?
N:
Me,whoelse.
G:
Yes,butIhaveafeelingthatpeoplelessandlesshavetimetoactuallydotheirwork,soI
waswonderinghowdoyoumanagetodistributeyourtime,howisyourattentiondistributed?
N:
Itrytofocusontheensemble,theunityofthewhole,andthen,attheendoftheday,onthe
details.Inbetweenthereissomethingwhichisveryimportant:itisproduction,contactswiththe
artists,shipping,etc.somethingwhichIamnotfocusedonatall.Mymainfocusison
togethernessandthe[constructionof]meaningobviously,andthenthesmalldetailslikethe
labels,orshapesofthelabels,doweneedto[buy?]thiscolourorthatcolour,thesekindof
thingsdetailswhicharereallyimportantandyoucanonlydecideifyouhaveaclearviewof
theensemble.
G:
Areanyartworksgoingtobeproducedspecificallyforthisexhibition?
N:
Many,Ithink.ButIamnotfetishisticabouttheproductionofnewworkinexhibitionsin
general.Sometimesanartworkcanbeseeninadifferentcontextandifitsagoodartworkitwill
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alsodelivernewmeanings,newlayerofmeaning.Soitsnotsoimportanttohavenewthings
likesomethingcompletelyunseenorworksthathaventbeenshownsomewhereelse,inTokyo
orwhatever.
T:
Soitsthewholecombinationthatisnew.
N:
Totally,butsomeworksareactuallymadehereorwillbeproducedfortheexhibitionsoits
both,itsgoingtobeacombination.
G:
Iamquitescepticalabouttheartistswhogettheirworkcommissionedconstantlyor
regularly,asthereisariskthattheworkwillbeproducedtofitinthecontent.
N:
Butitsadiscussionwiththecuratoreverytime.Sometimesyouhavetoappreciateitby
yourself,seeifitsmoreconvenienttohavethispiecewhichcorrespondsperfectlyforthe
purpose,orifyoutrusttheartisttoproducesomethingtotallynew,ifsheorhehasaproject.Its
apermanentnegotiationwitheveryoneofthem.Idonthaveanyformulaforeveryone,Ihavea
differentdiscussionwitheachofthem.Thatsimportant,Ithink.
G:
Butshouldartbecommissionedatall?
N:
Yeah.
G:
Soyouhavenoproblemwithcommissionedart?
N:
No,whywouldI?
G:
BecauseIthinktheartistshouldshowcommitmenttothe
N:
Butthatiswhatacommitmentisifyoudoaspecificprojectfortheexhibition.
G:
Alongtermcommitment.
N:
Whatisthelongtermhere?Itsatemporaryexhibition,thereisnolongterm.Commitmentto
whatyoumean?
G:
Commitmenttotheproblemthattheyareworkingon.
N:
Ah,Iseewhatyoumean.Butyouknowforexampleifyouaredoinganexhibitionaboutany
theme,thisthemecanbelongtotheworkofanartistwhocanbereallydeeplyinvolvedwithit
fromthebeginningofherwholecareer.ThatisthewayIinviteartistsgenerally.Ah,by
commissionyoumeansomethingwhichhasnothingtodowithOk,Igotyourpoint.No,it
neverhappenedtomethatIwouldinviteanartistandaskhimorhertodosomethingspecific
thathasnothingtodowithherorhiswork.No,never.Itwouldbestupid,andnobodywoulddo
that,thatstotallycrazy.
G:
ButyoumightnotneedtoaskthemtoBecausethatmightbethesolutionforthemhowto
getintotheshow.
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N:
No.
G:
Butyoucannotguaranteethesincerity.
N:
ButifyouchoosetheartistIdontknow,itsmyjob,Iwouldneverchooseanartistforan
exhibitionwhodoesntcorrespondtotheideaofanexhibition,sotheproblemdoesntexistfor
me,ithasneverhappened.
G:
Sothewayyouworkisyoucomeupwithanideaandtheninviteartistswhowouldthen
correspondtothisidea.
N:
Ofcourse.
G:
Andyoumodify,yousortofembracethedifferences,andsortofmakeanamalgamfromit,
butitsnotsomethingthatyouhaveenvisionedinyourresearch
N:
Mylifeisaresearch.Idontdoresearchspecificallyforonething,Idoiteverydayofthe
year.
G:
Soifartistsproducethematerialaccordingtoyourownideasandtheconceptsthatyou
create,thenaretheynotjustillustratorsofthoseideas?
N:
Never.Alsowhyitsverybad,soitwouldbestupidtoaskanartisttodosomethingbad.Ifits
artificial,iftheconnectionisartificialwewillalwaysseeititsobvious,itsclear.Itcreatesa
badzoneintheexhibition.
T:
Soperhapsthequestionisaboutthesolution:whetheritsdescriptiveorprescriptive?
G:
Adiagnosis.
T:
Adiagnosis.Yes,itstheproblemwhenwecreateaconceptoranotionandthenwelookfor
aneventthatwouldmatchthisnotionthisissomethingBadiouisinterestedin,henamesand
thenhewaitsforanEventtocorrespondwithitsprescriptivenaming.Orisitadescriptivemode
thatwearetalkingabout?Thereisadifferencebetweenthem.
N:
ItsnotadogmaticapproachthatIhave.WhenIstartworkingonanexhibition,firstofallIdo
thelistsofartistswhoseworkgoesintothatdirection,obviouslythatisthefirstlevel.Andthis
ishowIdevelopedthisshow,forexample.Whatisthemostphantasmagoricsideofthe
work

whataretheaspectsofthedistanceandcorrespondence,etc.Youhavetodecidethings
andyouhavetoincorporatethosethemesintothegeneralview,butitsneveraboutaskingan
artisttocorrespondtoanidea,thatwouldbeawronginterpretationofawork,soitspointless.
T:
Sonowthatwehavediscussedtheideaoftheshow,itisgoingtobeinterestingto
experiencethebeforeandafterthing.
N:
Yes,Iamimpatienttoo.

http://www.echogonewrong.com/interview-from-lithuania/i-am-not-a-philosopher-a-conversation-with-nicolas-bourriaud/