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The next option is to use a desiccant dehumidifier. Unlike using a cooling coil to remove the moisture,
a desiccant wheel is used to pull the moisture out. The wheel is essentially warmer and dryer than
the air its treating (known as process air) and will literally pluck the grains out. It is a very efficient
way of removing moisture and is used in applications where cooling coil cannot be used (ie, ice rinks
are cold enough that the condensate coming off the coil would literally freeze on the coil making the
coil ineffective).
In order to keep the desiccant wheel warm and dry, it needs a regeneration process once it has
retained the process airs humidity and this requires heat. For highly industrial processes, the heat
source would be an electric coil, steam coil or direct fired burner. While you can see a performance of
7.8% RH in the summer or lower (think leaving air of 75db/49 WB for and entering air of 95/75), for
commercial applications, it is a very expensive first cost as it will require a post cooling coil to bring
very warm, bone dry air (125F+, ~2%RH) down to the required temperature.
Another option for regenerating the wheel is using a passive process. Unlike the above which is
considered active (because the heat source is the driver of the output), the desiccant wheel gets
regenerated by the leaving exhaust air. The lower amount of heat available will not give as much dry
air compared to a direct fired burner, but the output may be better suited and will cost way less. The
one thing to mention, however, is because it is passive, the capacity is directly coupled to the outside
air being used. Using the tepid humid day as an example, the passive desiccant will not be very
effective.
Perhaps a good compromise to the above two scenarios is an active regeneration process which is a
bit less complex than a gas fired desiccant but can deliver lower dew points regardless of the ambient
condition. A desiccant wheel will work best when the air has the highest RH. That said, a small
refrigeration circuit is used to essentially precool the air which reduces the entering air dry bulb but
increases the RH. The wheel removes the moisture and slightly heats the air in the process (but the
air was precooled!) and this results in dry neutral air (75 DB, 40 dew point/~30%RH). The condenser
coil in this case becomes the heat source to regenerate the wheel. This is a very effective means to
dehumidify.
When the space humidity levels are lower, there is a lot of advantages- comfort, operating costs,
indoor air quality. Please This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript
enabled to view it. 973-536-2220 for an unbiased solution to all of your humidity needs!
The good, better, best of Dehumidification
Hot-Gas Reheat, Hot-Gas Bypass, Low Ambient, Modulating Compressors- The rundown:
Getting to Know Refrigeration
Desiccant Dehumidification
Energy Recovery... More than just wheels!
P trap design
Formulas and Rules of Thumb
Basic Pool Design and Layout
Psychometrics for the Common Man
Humidification 101
Hot Gas Reheat Retrofit?
DESICCANT DEHUMIDIFICATION
Commercial Desiccant Units- When is it best?
Unlike Industrial Desiccant Dehumidifiers which are very expensive and in some cases inflexbile, a
Commercial Grade Desiccant unit delivers the best performance for many applications without
overdoing it which meets the application more precisely in simplicity and cost.
- Low Dew points are great for Chilled Beam Applications as if the humidity is reduced, the
risk of condensation is reduced as well. WHY? Because a lower dew point means a lower relative
humidity and that allows more room for error (45 RH to 100% RH is better than 55 % RH).
- Desiccant Units are more Efficient. The silica gel of the desiccant wheel is "thirsty" vs a
compressor in a hot-gas reheat system which needs to work harder (higher head) delivering lower
discharge temperatures. WHY? Head is the difference between the ambient temperature that the
compressor is rejecting to verses the discharge temperature, typically lower to "overcool". That is why
desiccant units are eligible for NJ Smart start rebates.
- Commercial Desiccant units are perfect for Freezer Doors and Display Cases in
Supermarkets. WHY? The lower dew point allows the air to not condense and freeze on the door
when it is open.
- Get more capacity from the equipment that is already there. WHY? Again, direct expansion
equipment (DX) performance will improve with reduced head pressure and removing latent capacity
will achieve this. The same unit with a lower entering dew point will result in a lower discharge
temperature which leads to higher EER (because of the higher dry bulb delta T). This can also be
achieved with a chiller: increase the chilled water temperature to increase the kw/ton and as you get
more MBH.
- Packaged DX equipment can typically deliver 55F dew point; Industrial can get to 10F or even lower
(with a high price tag). The commercial desiccant unit we offer is about 40 F dew point.
How It Works:
Unlike using a cooling coil to remove the moisture, a desiccant wheel is used to pull the moisture out.
The wheel is essentially warmer and dryer than the air its treating (known as process air) and will
literally pluck the grains out. It is a very efficient way of removing moisture and is used in applications
where the cooling coil cannot be used (ie, ice rinks are cold enough that the condensate coming off
the coil would literally freeze on the coil making the coil ineffective).
In order to keep the desiccant wheel warm and dry, it needs a regeneration process once it has
retained the process airs humidity and this requires heat. For highly industrial processes, the heat
source would be an electric coil, steam coil or direct fired burner. While you can see a performance of
7.8% RH in the summer or lower (think leaving air of 75db/49 WB for with an entering air of 95/75),
for commercial applications, it is a very expensive first cost as it will require a post cooling coil to
bring very warm, bone dry air (125F+, ~2%RH) down to the required temperature.
For a commercial desiccant unit, a small refrigeration circuit is used to essentially precool the air
which reduces the entering air dry bulb but increases the RH. The wheel removes the moisture and
slightly heats the air in the process (but the air was precooled!) and this results in dry neutral air (75
DB, 40 dew point/~30%RH). The condenser coil in this case becomes the heat source to regenerate
the wheel. This is a very effective means to dehumidify.
When the space humidity levels are lower, there is a lot of advantages- comfort, operating costs,
indoor air quality. Please This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript
enabled to view it. 973-536-2220 for an unbiased solution to all of your humidity needs!
Additional Articles: THE GOOD BETTER BEST OF DEHUMIDIFICATION
ADDITIONAL THINGS WE DO (HOME PAGE)
HRVs and ERVs For Classroom Ventilation Applications
Recovering sensible or total heat, wheels or cubes, optional add-ons like fans and filters
and assorted sensors ... it takes some homework to specify the right energy-saving
recovery ventilator for your school application.
FIGURE 2. This map from the EPA shows the financial payback of using an ERV in different zones
across the U.S.
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May 1, 2014
Steven Liescheidt
KEYWORDS classroom ventilation / energy efficiency
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It doesnt get much more sensitive in HVAC design than designing ventilation systems for the schools
that our youth occupy during their learning years. These students are the future of America. These
are the youth whom we want and need to be in optimum learning environments.
There are studies that have been done on noise levels in classrooms. Students may be hindered from
hearing the teacher if the noise level of an HVAC unit is too loud. There are also studies and debates
on how much ventilation air is acceptable. Without proper ventilation, the IAQ may reach the point of
restricting learning abilities of the students. Without proper ventilation, the CO2 levels in the
classrooms may rise to a point that the students become tired and are less able to learn.
Historically, when it comes to energy savings, the basic school systems have been provided with the
least expensive types of HVAC products due to budget restraints. Energy savings was less of a
priority, if a priority at all.
Designing the HVAC for new modern schools and retrofit of older schools requires
balancing objectives that are covered in ASHRAE Standards 55, 62, and 90 along with USGBC LEED
guidelines and building code requirements, which vary by location. The application of heat and
energy recovery ventilators is one way to help with compliance of codes and standards. The reality
seems to be that one day, all buildings will require some form of HRV or ERV device to meet the
building codes in the United States. There are already products on the market that utilize solar heat
to preheat outside air going into the building ventilation systems.
Overview
A heat or energy recovery ventilator is an essential piece of mechanical equipment that is used to
pre-heat or pre-cool the outside air that is brought into a building for ventilation. The technology can
be such that it can recover only sensible heat (called an HRV) or total heat, sensible and latent (called
an ERV). The technology can be a rotating wheel or a fixed cube-type device. There are other
technologies to recover energy; however, this article will focus on wheels and the cube-type media
technologies. In some situations and applications, a water or DX coil may be more appropriate than a
media type heat transfer material.
The material of construction of the wheel or cube varies by manufacturer, and each will promote their
product based on their performance advantages. There are pros and cons to both technologies.
Suffice it to say that the engineer needs to have a conversation with the manufacturer and then apply
reasonable good engineering judgment to discern which media material best meets the application
needs.
Sizing and Selection
When sizing an HRV or ERV, the engineer must consider the ventilation load and also the intended
use of the unit throughout the year. In some climates and applications there is no need (and it is
possibly a detriment) to install an ERV versus an HRV.
The applications of energy recovery ventilators and sizing of these units takes a clear understanding
of the fundamental tool of the HVAC industry the psychometric chart. The psychrometric chart, by
definition, is a graphic representation of the properties of mixtures of air and water vapor.
Most manufacturers have software programs to select their HRV and ERV units using basic input data
that is needed to plot the conditions on a psychometric chart. The product selection program does all
of the analysis and provides a performance printout that can be used as the basis-of-design unit
requirements. Care must be taken to review the performance data and allow for discrepancies
between manufacturers. Not all products are tested under the same conditions; therefore it is
difficult to compare product performance.
Obviously, the application of an HRV or ERV depends on a source of building air that is being
exhausted or relieved as part of the HVAC system. The goal is to recover a portion of the sensible or
total heat in the exhaust or relief air in a manner that is safe and saves energy. Sources of exhaust
could be toilet rooms, locker rooms, showers, kitchen areas, or laboratory spaces.
Some municipalities do not allow the use of wheels in toilet exhaust air streams because there is a
bypass air factor for all wheels even when purge sections are used. However, the exhaust air
compartment in the unit is generally more negative than the supply air chamber, so this may not be
an issue of concern. The AHJ should always be consulted on any HRV and ERV application to ensure
the proper type of unit is utilized.
Performance
An ERV and HRV may or may not be rated and tested under independent testing standards such as
the AHRI standards. If not, then certainly engineers and facility owners may have a concern about
the performance claims by a manufacturer. Even when tested, the testing may not be the same from
one manufacturer to another, therefore the comparison of units is difficult at best and practically
impossible. This affects design decisions and comparison for evaluation. Also, keep in mind that no
performance is guaranteed past the day of purchase. The performance data of all wheels and cubes
that this author is aware of is not guaranteed beyond the first day of the unit installation and
operation. The industry does not have any type of fouling factors like with piping or other products
that give some guidance on de-rating of performance over time.
Proving and verifying performance after installation becomes a challenge as with any product that is
tested under ideally controlled conditions. Commissioning or enhanced commissioning of new or
existing ERV and HRV units can be a challenge to prove or disprove the unit is indeed giving the
performance that the owner paid for. Many variables exist, including installation and maintenance,
that may impact the air streams in the ERV or HRV. It may be worth considering specifying an annual
recommissioning of ERV and HRV units to verify performance on an ongoing basis.
Performance ratings of products by AHRI Standard 1060 third-party testing include leakage ratings at
various pressure differentials and thermal effectiveness ratings for sensible, latent, and total energy
transfer for both heating and cooling. These conditions are difficult at best (and at worst, impossible)
impossible to replicate after installation, so calculations are necessary to determine if the unit is
indeed performing as promoted in the manufacturers literature.
Installation, Operation, and Maintenance
An ERV or HRV, like any other mechanical device, needs to be maintained. The maintenance of the
ERV and HRV depends on the materials used and the technology of the wheel. Some media may
require more labor-intensive maintenance than others. Some media requires basic vacuuming, and
others require washing or perhaps even steam cleaning.
Some ERVs for inside installation are essentially outdoor units less the weather enclosures yet not
much modification to account for limited inside serviceability. This gives engineers a challenge on
retrofit projects and may be a product enhancement opportunity for manufacturers looking for a way
to provide units that are sensitive to maintainability for the enduser. Design features that minimize
the size of the ERV, minimize the access clearances, and provide multiple unit duct connection
locations are just a few of the indoor unit criteria some engineers and architects look for.
The design of the intake of the outside air is important to understand so as to not take greater risk
than necessary in impacting the media. Care must be taken to follow the manufacturers installation,
maintenance, and operation instructions to optimize the length of the effectiveness of the media.
EPA Design Tools
The EPA has a section called IAQ Design Tools for Schools on their
website. (http://www.epa.gov/iaq/schooldesign/ervassumptions.html). This page has a section called
ERV Assumptions which has a System Financial Applicability Map.
They also have software (http://www.epa.gov/iaq/schooldesign/saves.html#ERV) called the Financial
Assessment Software Tool (EFAST). Although the map gives a good starting point for consideration of
ERV applications, the engineer should still do the due diligence of lifecycle cost analysis of the
application based on specific project locations and conditions and operating conditions. Arbitrary
application of any products that are marketed by manufacturers as energy-saving products with no
detailed analysis can be costly to an enduser.
LEED
The LEED compliance initiative across the U.S. affects almost every aspect of a building design and
HVAC systems. Although engineers have worked diligently for years before LEED came into being to
design energy efficient buildings and HVAC systems, the LEED program has helped the industry focus
on these essentials in good stewardship of materials and resources more than ever before.
The LEED-NC for new construction and major renovations gives credit for achieving increasing levels
of energy performance above the prerequisite standard to reduce environmental impacts associated
with excessive energy use. Some manufacturers have claimed that their customers have realized a
reduction in total building energy use of 10-15% by using energy recovery as part of their HVAC
systems. In these cases, according to the Energy and Atmosphere Credit 1: Optimize Energy
Performance, this customer would receive two points for new construction and four points for a major
renovation.
The USGBC also recognizes the contribution of higher outdoor air ventilation rates with better IAQ.
The Indoor Environmental Quality Credit 2: Increased Ventilation gives one point for outdoor air
ventilation rates 30% above the minimum required by ASHRAE 62.1. The credit also suggests to use
heat recovery, where appropriate, to minimize additional energy consumption associated with higher
ventilation rates.
Energy Star
The EPA has a Tier 1 and a Tier 2 level of compliance for ERVs. These can be seen at their website.
According to Energy Star, Tier 1 (effective January 1, 2010) Products to be sold as Energy Star
qualified must be tested and meet SRE requirements at 32F (0C) and -13F (-25C). The net supply
airflows (in cfm) used during testing at these two different temperatures must be within 10% of each
other, and specified in product literature and labeling.
For qualification under Tier 2, the climate zone map is used to determine the product criteria to
comply as Energy Star.
Supply fan
Exhaust fan
CO2 sensor
Service receptacle
compatibility
Purge section
pass sytem for ERV s or operable windows (or air conditioning) to provide cooling during warm
weather.
Energy recovery ventilation is not a good choice for interior spaces unless those spaces are airconditioned.
A second area of concern involves the fact that there is little standardization in the heat recovery
industry. Manufactures and products come and go, and there is some concern that products specified
today may not have manufactures support a few years from now.
Heat exchangers to recover heat increase the pressure drop of the air handling system, and increase
the power demand of the fans.
This is however typically only 5-10 % of the recovered energy.
Energy Recovery in Laboratory Exhaust Systems
Due to the toxic nature of laboratory exhaust effluent, these systems require 100% outside air for
safe ventilation. Normally, laboratory exhaust cannot be recirculated. Depending on the size of the
lab, the make-up air heating and cooling can be a majority of the energy used in a lab. With the cost
of energy going in one direction only (UP!), energy recovery can usually provide short payback
periods and makes good sense for a long term energy policy as well.
Air-to-air energy recovery is the process of recovering energy and/or moisture from an air stream at
high temperature and/or humidity and transferring it to an air stream of lower temperature and/or
humidity. Energy can be recovered in either sensible (temperature only) or latent (moisture) form, or
a combination of both. Devices that transfer sensible energy only are known as heat recovery
ventilators (HRVs). Devices that transfer both heat and moisture are called energy recovery
ventilators (ERVs)
There are four typical devices used to recover energy from an air stream: The Energy Recovery
Wheel, Plate Heat Exchangers, Heat Pipes and Runaround Coil Loops. We will discuss the pros and
cons of each system here.
Rotary Air-to-Air Energy Exchanger
The Energy Recovery Wheel, or rotary enthalpy wheel, technology utilizes a light-weight polymer
enthalpy wheel with a silica gel desiccant permanently bonded to the polymer. This device provides
long and reliable energy transfer life, has low pressure drop characteristics and requires minimal
maintenance. This is the only energy recovery device that allows total (sensible and latent) energy
transfer. Energy recovery is in the 75 80% efficiency range.
The disadvantage to using an Energy Recovery Wheel in a lab exhaust application is the potential for
cross contamination of the incoming fresh air. Standard comfort ventilation energy recovery wheels
cannot be used because of the minimal leakage between airstreams. Toxic exhaust contaminants in
the incoming fresh air would be unacceptable. The energy recover wheel system must be fitted with a
purge section to keep the exhaust contaminants out of the fresh air. This purge circuit will reduce the
heat transfer efficiency somewhat, but the potential for cross contamination still exists in the event of
duct or seal failure.
Fixed Plate Heat Exchanger
Air to Air Plate Heat Exchangers are another option for energy recovery. The plate heat exchanger is
very simple, with no moving parts. Energy recovery can be very high, up to 80% and pressure drops
across the heat exchanger are minimal. The plate heat exchanger does sensible heat transfer only.
The major disadvantage with a plate heat exchanger is that the contaminated exhaust air must be
brought to close proximity to the incoming fresh air. With the possibility of corrosive elements in the
exhaust gas, cross contamination of the two air streams is possible if the plates corrode, and they
may corrode in an area of the heat exchanger that is not readily visible. Latent heat transfer may also
occur, where the moisture in the warm exhaust gas is cooled to the point of condensation by the
incoming cold outside air. The condensation process allows the latent heat of condensation to be
transferred to the outside air as sensible heat. However, this condition could exacerbate the corrosive
nature of the exhaust stream, thus accelerating the corrosion of the plates. In some instances, a plate
exchanger made from corrosion resistant polymers may be a cost-effective option. Periodic cleaning
of the plate surfaces is the only maintenance required, however, this may require the use of a high
pressure cleaning system to clean all interior plate surfaces.
Heat Pipe Heat Exchanger
A heat pipe system utilizes a hollow pipe filled with a vaporizable liquid, usually a refrigerant. Heat
from the exhaust air stream is absorbed at one end of the pipe (evaporator section), boiling the fluid
to vapor phase. A vapor pressure gradient drives the vapor inside the pipe to the other end of the
pipe (condenser section), where the cold incoming fresh air is flowing. Heat is released to the cold
air, condensing the vapor to liquid phase, releasing the latent energy of vaporization. The liquid then
returns by gravity to the lower end of the pipe, where it is revaporized to start the cycle again. The
heat pipe produces sensible heat transfer only.
Heat
is
absorbed
in
the
evaporating section.
B. Fluid boils to vapor phase.
C. Heat is released from the upper
part of cylinder to the environment;
vapor condenses to liquid phase.
D. Liquid returns by gravity to the
lower part of cylinder (evaporating
section).
For HVAC applications, heat pipes typically use copper tubes with aluminum fins. For protection from
corrosion, the tubes and fins can be coated with an epoxy or Heresite coating with minimal effect on
thermal performance. A plate partition separates the two air streams. A vented double wall partition
can be used for added protection against cross-contamination. Attaching an exhaust system to this
partition space will withdraw any leakage between the two ducts.
The runaround coil loop system does sensible heat transfer only. Typical effectiveness values range
from 45 to 65%. Minimal maintenance is required since the only moving part is the pump. Coil
surfaces will require periodic cleaning.
Heat transfer fluid should be selected carefully. Water provides the most efficient heat transfer but
has no freeze protection. Ethylene glycol solutions provide freeze protection but are toxic if spilled
and breaks down to an acidic sludge at temperatures above 275oF. Propylene glycol is not toxic but
has less heat transfer capability than ethylene glycol.
The Greenheck Vektor ERS (Energy Recovery System) is a Vektor laboratory exhaust fan system with
an expanded air plenum that includes an energy recovery coil (and optional filter). The Vektor ERS
can be supplied with either the Vektor MD mixed flow in-line fans or the Vektor CD centrifugal
blowers. With a second energy recovery coil installed in a suitable make-up air unit, the loop is
closed.
Vektor ERS systems can be supplied up to 200,000+ CFM, providing up to 55% sensible energy
recovery with no possibility of supply and exhaust cross contamination. Single source responsibility
for make-up air and laboratory exhaust can provided from Michigan Air Products and Greenheck Fan
Corporation.
For more information, contact your local Michigan Air Products salesman or visit Heat Pipe
Technology or Greenheck.
An HRV provides balanced ventilation. If the HRV is properly adjusted, stale air is exhausted
from the building at the same rate that fresh air is being introduced. Ventilation always exacts an
energy penalty, though, so it's important not to overventilate. Builders who are leery of
overventilating homes sometimes wonder whether the recommended air exchange rates for wholehouse ventilation are adequate to clear condensation from bathroom mirrors.
A balanced ventilation system for example, a system with a heat-recovery ventilator (HRV) or an
energy-recovery ventilator (ERV) exhausts stale air from some rooms in a building, while
simultaneously introducing fresh outdoor air to other rooms. The best balanced ventilation systems
use dedicated ventilation ductwork. Usually, these systems pull exhaust air from damp, smelly rooms
bathrooms and laundry rooms and introduce fresh air to the rooms where people spend most of
their time bedrooms and the living room.
Some of these balanced ventilation systems operate at a low speed for 24 hours a day. Others have
timers that operate the fans for a certain number of minutes perhaps 20 or 40 minutes per
hour. These controls aim to ventilate the house at a pre-determined rate for example, the rate
recommended by the ASHRAE 62.2 standard. Depending on whether you use the old ASHRAE
formula or the new ASHRAE formula, and depending on the size of the house and the number of
occupants, a single-family house might require anywhere from 45 cfm to 120 cfm of ventilation air.
Many HRV manufacturers advise builders that the exhaust function of an HRV is adequate for
removing moisture and odors from bathrooms. However, a few HRV manufacturers and some
builders provide different advice; they advise that even when a bathroom has an exhaust grille
connected to HRV ductwork, its still important for every such bathroom to have a separate bath
exhaust fan.
RELATED ARTICLES
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A New Way to Duct HRVs
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Q&A: For a house with an HRV, is there a good plan for ventilating both bath and toilet room?
Code requirements;
Affordability.
Code requirements
In the 2009 International Residential Code, bathroom fan requirements can be found in section
R303.3 and section M1507.3. As long as a bathroom or toilet room is equipped with a window that
has at least 3 square feet of glazing, and as long as half of the window can be opened, most building
codes do not require the installation of a bathroom exhaust fan.
If the bathroom or toilet room has no window, however, it must have an exhaust fan with a minimum
ventilation rate of 50 cfm if it is operated intermittently or 20 cfm if it is operated continuously.
Lets imagine an example: a typical HRV might be adjusted to operate at 70 cfm to meet ASHRAE
62.2 requirements. Typically, such systems include a booster switch in each bathroom to allow users
to bump up the air flow rate of the HRV from low speed (in this case, 70 cfm) to high speed (say, 150
cfm).
If an HRV operating at 70 cfm (continuous) is installed in a house with four bathrooms, each
bathroom might end up with 17.5 cfm of continuous exhaust or 37.5 cfm of intermittent exhaust.
These flow rates arent enough to meet minimum code requirements for windowless bathrooms.
(Needless to say, actual air flow rates are likely to be significantly less than the numbers given in this
example, because of static pressure drop associated with the duct system.)
Some builders have wondered whether its possible to install motorized dampers in exhaust ducts,
with controls that close the exhaust ducts of all bathrooms except for the bathroom where an
occupant has activated the fan speed boost switch, so that the entire exhaust air flow of the HRV is
pulled from one bathroom. According to John Pothier, technical specialist at Venmar Ventilation, such
a system wouldnt work and to his knowledge has never been attempted. The main technical problem
with the proposal is that individual exhaust ducts arent sized to handle to full air flow of the HRV.
Although its quite possible that some installed HRV systems dont meet minimum code requirements
in the U.S., few building inspectors are likely to attempt to verify the exhaust airflow rates of these
systems. After all, a code inspector doesnt usually show up at a job site with a flow hood. Moreover,
its probable that most homeowners with fully ducted HRV systems will be completely satisfied with
the performance of the system, even if the system doesnt quite meet minimum code requirements.
In Canada, where HRV systems are far more common than they are in the U.S., the building code
differs. In Quebec, for example, the above-code energy efficiency program NovoClimat (a program
that resembles the Energy Star Homes program) requires that all homes include an HRV. When I
discussed the NovoClimat program with Jean Pothier, he told me, If you follow NovoClimat, no bath
fans are allowed in these homes. You need an HRV to each bathroom. This is how they do it.
However, Pothier later amended his explanation of NovoClimat requirements. The latest version of
NovoClimat requires that the two most-used bathrooms in a house must be exhausted by the HRV
system and must have a minimum exhaust airflow of 40 cfm each. If the house has more than two
bathrooms, the remaining bathrooms can either be tied into the HRV system (as long as the minimum
exhaust rate is at least 40 cfm) or can be served by independent exhaust fans.
Are HRV exhaust rates effective?
If a house has an HRV that continuously exhausts air from the bathrooms at a rate of 20 cfm per
bathroom, are the owners likely to be satisfied? There is no clear answer to this question.
Posting on GBA, Doug McEvers, a builder from Eden Prairie, Minnesota, wrote, I have used this
system [an HRV for bathroom exhaust] for 25 years and never had a complaint.
On the same GBA thread, Mark Klein, a builder from Amherst, Wisconsin, commented, We have been
using HRVs for 25 years and have experimented with a few different approaches. Early on we tried
using the HRV as the only exhaust in baths and our clients felt that they did not have sufficient
exhaust.
Another GBA reader, T.J. Elder, noted, Id suggest it makes more sense to omit the exhaust fan
when installing an HRV, and understand the difference in airflow. It will not perform as well at
immediately clearing the air as a dedicated exhaust fan, because its designed to operate continuously
at low speed.
I asked John Pothier from Venmar whether the HRV-only approach ever resulted in homeowner
complaints. Pothier answered, Sure. Some homeowners dont want a foggy mirror. Once I had a
case well, this bathroom had a big hot tub. The homeowner also had a rain shower system. His
ventilation system was working. It was exhausting more than 50 cfm. There were only two exhaust
locations in this house. But he said, My mirror is fogging up, and I dont like it. So I told him, Put in
supplementary ventilation. If you think that the HRV is not powerful enough for your activities, it is
your prerogative to put in a bath fan.
Simplicity versus complexity
Builders who prefer simple systems to complex systems are likely to balk at the idea of a fully ducted
HRV system plus separate exhaust fans. When I asked Joseph Lstiburek about this approach, he
answered, I do not like combining systems. It is the old engineer in me showing through. I do not
like complexity. Controls become more complicated. Programing them correctly and operating them
correctly adds to the complexity.
I told Lstiburek that, in my experience, most owners of homes with fully ducted HRVs and no
independent bath fans are happy with the performance of their systems. Lstiburek answered, My
experience is the same as yours. [But] HRVs are not as reliable as exhaust fans. It results in a
bigger and therefore more expensive HRV. In cold climates it increases defrost problems. Having said
that, I can live with it, and many times do. The setup is far better than no HRV. So if I can get an
HRV in the structure by having to economize by eliminating the additional cost of extra stand-alone
exhaust fans, I will, if the alternative is just exhaust fans with no HRV.
Homeowners who are willing to pay for a balanced ventilation system probably dont want the system
to include components that put the system out of balance. According to GBA reader Matt Fletcher,
As a Passive House Consultant-in-Training and a design/build contractor I recall there was significant
discussion over this particular subject during my consultant training courses. Both sides of the
argument were explored. Adding an exhaust fan to the building envelope that utilized an HRV to
perform the ventilation would unbalance the interior air pressure. If you exhaust air separately out
of an airtight balanced system then it defeats the whole principle of the balanced system.
The cost question
HRV systems are expensive. If homeowners pay $5,000 to $8,000 for a fully ducted HRV system, they
probably dont want to hear that the system wont be able to exhaust air from their bathrooms. It's
hard to imagine that these homeowners want to pay extra to install redundant systems.
For homeowners who are worried that an HRV wont clear steam from their bathroom quickly
enough, it might make more sense to skip the expensive HRV and just install separate exhaust fans in
each bathroom. If one of these exhaust fans is controlled by a 24-hour timer, the homeowners might
be completely satisfied with this simple exhaust-only ventilation system.
What about ERVs?
A final note of caution comes from Max Sherman, a senior scientist at Lawrence Berkeley National
Laboratory and former chairman of the ASHRAE 62.2 committee.
From the [ASHRAE] 62.2 compliance point of view, 20 cfm continuous extract complies, which
should be easy for a ducted HRV to meet, Sherman pointed out. So for an HRV, I think there are
plenty of reasonable designs without having a separate exhaust. The situation for an ERV, though,
needs a bit more thought. Since an ERV recovers moisture (and maybe formaldehyde), you are not
really exhausting moisture from the bathroom, you are redistributing it. There may be times of the
year where that is just fine, but there will be times when you really just want to exhaust it. So I have
more sympathy for adding the extra exhaust (e.g. instead of a booster fan) when the system is an
ERV.
Commissioning is essential
Remember, if you dont commission your ventilation system, you really have no idea what your
exhaust airflows are.
If the performance of your HRV system is disappointing, check the airflow rates at each exhaust
grille. You cant conclude that your HRV system is wimpy unless you have first verified that the
system is properly balanced and providing the exhaust airflows specified by the system designer.
If a good Chinese company enters the market, prices may eventually drop.
Lastly, i am pretty sure that there is a spot on the market right now for lower
cost , high effiency low cfm HRV for small high effiency houses. 5000-8000$ cost for an efficient
system in a small efficient but budgeted house is too far of a stretch to be justified.
Easy to push high end stuff in a 400K-700K$ passive house,
but it is also easy to include Alcatara dashboard finish on a 350 000$ Ferrari .
90% results in incoming air at 66F. Quite a difference in comfort. Similar differences in sound levels
are also an important consideration, and that is reflected in the size and insulation of the box.
With regards to Max Sherman's comments on ERVs, I am hoping that LBNL will one day realize or
acknowledge that ERVs vary widely, and that their assumptions are in some cases misguided. For
example, ERVs with enthalpy wheels, notorious for cross-flow leakage, should not be compared to
well designed and manufactured cross-counter-flow ERVs with dPoint membrane based heat and
moisture exchangers. Wheels are known (and certified) to leak at 10-50%, while dPoint units are less
than 3%. This is third-party verified by both HVI and PHI. So pontificating with broad-strokes
declarations is misguided and incorrect. And the formaldehyde theory. Data please. I thought we had
put that one to bed, pending some actual data. And again, enthalpy wheel, or otherwise?
And with regards to the theory that ERVs will retain too much moisture if used for bath exhaust, can
we also recognize that ERV SYSTEMS are not all created equal either? Take a typical whole house
system. There would be perhaps four to five exhaust points (bathrooms, kitchen, possibly basement
or mud room or laundry) and an approximately equal number of supply points. So assume a 50% RH
in the home, and 90% in the bathroom with the shower going on. The bathroom with the shower
going on represents 20-25% of the total exhaust flow, so 75-80% of the exhaust is at 50%, and 2025% is at 90%. Do the math. Not as significant as presented. And that bath with shower is only
intermittent, and the remainder of the time, the bathroom is at close to ambient. If the incoming air
is at low humidity, you transfer some of the moisture to the incoming air. If the outside air is at high
humidity, you still transfer a large percentage of incoming humidity to the outgoing air.
I still don't think it makes sense to punch more leaky holes in the walls and stick bath fans in them if
you have a properly designed, installed and commissioned HRV OR ERV system.
Heated mirrors?
by David Butler
Wouldn't that be like shooting the canary in the coal mine?
Regarding jump ducts in baths, etc... Martin is correct, door undercuts are generally adequate for the
flow rates we're talking about. But it needs to be designed, not left to chance. The Manual D
guideline for undercuts is to allow 2 CFM per square inch of gap. Pocket doors are generally leaky
enough to ignore.
understand the potential problems and unintended consequences, and apply appropriate design
strategies as well as homeowner education regarding moisture management. Manufacturers also
have an important role to play and, I believe, an obligation to at least describe potential risks in their
installations guides.
Buildright said:
..................... Most self builders use substandard designers and builders who dont understand that
energy efficiency can be incorporated at zero cost with a little bit of planning. For bolla sake, lettin
engineers design houses! madness. Moreover to be a builder in Ireland all you need is a Navarra and
a mobile phone.........................
Vincenzo said:
Hi buildright, thanks for the response, great to get help from someone who knows what they are
talking about.
A couple of things:
1. the house is planned to have a standard central heating system so no saving in plumbing there
(you may argue that there is no need for standard central heating, but would that be true in a nonpassive house?);
2. assuming solar is included then we are not comparing like-with-like to a traditional heating system,
so the installation, running and maintenance costs of solar would have to be factored in for
comparison;
3. I really do think payback is absolutely relevant for these energy saving measures. You might say
that air quality is the main reason for MHRV, but I don't think so - surely air quality is adequate in
most houses in Ireland? Assuming the main reason for MHRV is energy efficiency, which most people
would agree, then installation, maintenance and running has to be seen as an additional cost. That
cost needs to at some point be recouped by means of savings in energy bills compared with the same
house without the system. Otherwise, why bother?
(I don't agree with the comparison with a car or a kitchen - the function of a car or a kitchen is not to
save energy, so payback is not an issue, but that is the point of an energy saving system, so you
expect to break even on costs at some point and then start saving).
Open to correction on any of the above, thanks again for the advice.
1. Look at the design of most standard central heating systems the porpose of which is to
compensate for the massive heat loss through fabric and windows. Its very ineeficient, the heat rises
and draws in cold air at your feet. You'll always have cold feet . The hot air rising, blows out through
the top of the house drawing cold air in at low level. You shouldn't need to heat upstairs, the natural
stratification of air should mean that the warmest air is at the top of the house. Underfloor downstairs
is all thats required just to the tiles areas, the combination of rising air and HRV distribution will
elliminate the need for central heating. The central heating is an analogy to a massive engine overcompensating for the fact that you designed your car with square wheels. Evan a half passive house
with 30kWh per m2 heat demand benifits from such a strategy.
2. Solar is a seperate decision to MHRV. Its mandatory and is a regulatory burden.
3. Air quality is bad in most houses. Air quality is related to humidity, particulate matter, organic
matter, microorganisms, odours, carbon dioxide and monoxide. The heat recovery is a free added
benefit. You are designing your house to achieve comfort for human habitation. The house should be
designed as a system, you cant look at each element in isolation. I've worked with clients who are
building to passive standard at very close to conventional cost, but it does take a little more work to
find cost effective solutions. Just get out of the mindset of the celtic tiger era. Thats over and it'll be
ten years before we have growth above inflation. You're building for future energy shocks and long
term asset value. Most the property we've built in the last ten yyears i svirtually worthless beyond its
land value. Protect your investment by building a house that will still be relevent in ten years time.
We all have regrets after completing a build, I don't want to say I told you so, measure twice, cut
once.
Good points well made buildright. Thanks for taking the time.
Lots to think about.
(Haven't heard too many dissenting voices either which is interesting in itself.)
PS I know there already is a thread on this here but its a bit out of date, am looking for an up to date
perspective if possible please.
If 18 months is out of date for info/technology, think of what your unit will be at the end of projected
payback time.
yesterday morning outside temp was 4c. inside house was 18 to 20c. the air temp coming out from
the supply vent was 19c.
is MVHR thesame as HRV ?
If 18 months is out of date for info/technology, think of what your unit will be at the end of projected
payback time.
Click to expand...
Fair point Capt Beaky but as I don't have either a crystal ball or a time machine, all I can do is find
out the latest up to date info and opinions and make the best judgement based on those.
What's your own opinion / experience on MVHR / MHRV ?
Hi all,
interesting thread,
kfh said:
what exactly does the building regs say re solar - would HRV not be a from
of renewable energy which would suffice for building regs??
Click to expand...
Hi all,
interesting thread,
buildright you quoted
2. Solar is a seperate decision to MHRV. Its mandatory and is a regulatory
burden.
what exactly does the building regs say re solar - would HRV not be a from
of renewable energy which would suffice for building regs??
Click to expand...
...I'm not up with the technical issues associated with air tighteness etc but I have been told
that it is possible to achieve high levels of air tightness with a block build - obviously if the builder
does his job! I suppose the real issue here is if not going with an airtight timber frame of SIP system
is MVHR still worthwhile?
A secondary issue here relates to the Building Regs and the installation of solar panels. I was of the
view that if you installed a renewable heat source like a geothermal heat pump this obviated the need
to go with solar panels, at least that is what I have been advised. Thanks in advance
You've caught my eye with mention of SIP (it's what I do), so a few things there:
1. Even built well, unless you undertake a specific airtightness 'programme' in a block build, it will not
be airtight. This is simply a reflection of the properties of blocks/etc. You can of course make it
airtight, but that is a distinct separate task, and trade. And it brings a cost with it.
Another limitation is that you're only talking about walls - the roof is another huge issue, as is the
connection of it, to the walls. Again, you're talking about time and materials. And , again, money. As
you probably know what a SIP is, you'll know this is a non-issue in a SIP system.
2. As to the value of going with MHRV etc, well the fact is, that airtightness is now a measured
requirement, so if you have a particularly good reading, you're probably going to need it anyway.
Simply put, the choice of your building method shouldn't be influencing your decision on the MHRV,
as your requirement for airtightness is the same, irrespective of the build type you choose.
3. In any modern house, built to a high standard, and working well, it's requirement for heating will
be (relatively) low. This being the case, heating system choices, and their costs, need to be
considered even more carefully than before. I like solar, because, in a new build, it is not a big cost
as part of a new system, and imho, it does make a measurable contribution. As usual, YMMV and all
that
4. I'm still not personally convinced about heating systems that are heavily reliant on electricity.
Again, this is not a reflection on the systems themselves, but more the cost of electricity itself.
Hi I recently installed a heat recovery system into my home. Initially I intended to do a diy job on it
myself as posts here say it's diy friendly but decided to get a crowd home heat recovery to do it for
me as i was busy working. Glad i did in the end as they had two ductors that spent 4 days doing the
work so i greatly under estimated the amount of work on rigid ducting and the expertise required to
do the job right. You pay for what you get and if i done the job i would have done a cheap job far
less professional to what the guys done.
I have spent a fair bit of time researching MHRV and concluded it's not the way to go for me. Will be
going with a Mechanical Extract Fan system that's humidity and presence sensitive with ducts
extracting moisture from wet rooms. In habitable rooms, I plan to install either hole in the wall /
trickle vents in windows, both of which would be humidity sensitive.
Hi,
Can anyone shed some light on the running costs ?
Hi All,
Very good thread and some very valid comments. Can I ask a question which is related to what we
are discussing? Is timber frame the way to go in lieu of blockwork? e.g timberframe with 50mm cavity
and external blockwork with render. I know of some people who are using cavity wall with 80mm
cavity insulation and sand cement, urethane board mushroom fixed to interna face of external walls.
I would have imagined timber frame is the way to go but this all depends on the quality of the timber
frame contractor etc.
You can't ask a qustion comparing timber frame versus masonery. Its can't be done. Quality control is
a big problem on our domestic building sites and generally results in a low quality product.
I have 2 specifications, both deliver near passive performance levels at slightly over conventional
build rates. Performance levels are walls 0.14 u-value. I have other standards at 0.16 and 0.18.
Airtighness is 1 air change @50pa underpressure. MHRV is used to run at 0.75 air changes per hour
wit polyetheelenr ducts. Heating oil boiler with underfloor to tiled areas and 2 towel rails on a
seperate circuit. 5m2 solar evc tube. 1000l buffer. room sealed stove.
One is masonery, 250 mm wide cavity masonry, precast first floor, cellulose filled double rafter roof
with cellulose fill and softboard racking. Foamglass and Quinlite inner leaf starter blocks on standard
rising wall.
Two is timber frame, vapour diffuse to outside: aquapanel renderboard rainscreen, panel vent racking
board, 220 stud with 75 rail, cellulose filled, osb inner board, insulated services cavity, osb substrate,
plasterboard. On an insulated formwork EPS raft.
Heres where the fun starts..... Firstly, I need to build a thermal bridge free rising wall/edge beam and
get the Radon barrier right. I need to get the building windtight from outside, softboard on the roof
does this. Then when the windows are in, I get the inside airtight using OSB rather than intello. Then
the trades come in and poke holes everywhere... thats why I use OSB.
There is no difference in performance if you detail the build well and have good quality control on
site. The build spec I have selected, is the optimum level which balances enhanced performance
against cost. It is an affordable spec which delivers a thermally stable, good quality indoor climate
and healthy air, with a spec designed for longevity and very low running costs. The spec, its devised
using a systems approach. What is saved on heat pumps is simply put into insulation. Its common
sense, heat pumps with a payback of 20 years vs insulation and airtightness with a payback of 3.
Running costs can be calculated from your PHPP (passive house planning package) MHRV will half
your space heating bill. The house to the above spec, is a celtic tiger design, two storey with gables
and dormers and stuck on stone. Perched on a hill. ' hey look at me' you know the type. At about 250
square metres it will cost about 700 a year for space heating and hot water, pumps etc.
MHRV uses a pair of Santos units with solid ducts (no flexis or flatpacks). two 25w fans in each
running continuously.
Patrick2008 said:
Hi All,
... Can I ask a question which is related to what we are discussing? Is timber frame the way to go in
lieu of blockwork? e.g timberframe with 50mm cavity and external blockwork with render. I know of
some people who are using cavity wall with 80mm cavity insulation and sand cement, urethane board
Buildright said:
You can't ask a qustion comparing timber frame versus masonery. Its can't
be done. Quality control is a big problem on our domestic building sites and
generally results in a low quality product.
Click to expand...
And buildright has nailed it on the head, in one. Naturally, I have an interest, as I build homes in a
timber based system, but the single biggest issue is, and will continue to be, quality. Good materials,
poorly assembled, still gives a poorly built house.
The current downward ratcheting of prices, is only going to end in tears, as you always, always, get
what you pay for. Get a quote for X, and then get the job done for x/2 - then, you don't need to be
scientist to figure out that that saving is coming from somewhere..........and it isn't your future energy
bills !
When we did our accrediation with the BRE, a major thing for them is 'How do you manage quality
on-site' ? And every second visit that they make to us is to a site, to check. For us, the simple way to
control quality, is use factory-employed staff directly - we don't use subbie's - for too long, they've
been paid on a per sq ft basis (and bring your own fixings ! ), and that only gets you one result.........
Back on-topic, btw - quick question - if people are considering NOT using MHRV, I'd love to know
what they ARE planning to use, in lieu.......
Hi Galwaytt. Can I ask the name of your company. By all means PM me.
Mhrv
re topic: has anyone any experience with or comment on finewire HRV? am
considering this on grounds of cost and simplicity
A thought struck me recently. Why do MHRV systems need filters (and need regular replacing of
those filters) while the old hole in the wall and demand/humidity driven ventilation systems don't. Is it
to keep debris/insects out of the fans to prevent damage or is it an air quality issue?
feileacan said:
Hi,
Looks very impressive and simple. Will be looking more into it. I think it will be the
way to go
Really interesting posts. I was hoping to reignite the discussion as we are now in 2013. Have any of
the original contributors any updates? Or does anyone else have a view ?
Are heat recovery systems more advanced now?
I am in the midst of choosing a builder for a 2300 sq foot house and today the builder who are
leaning toward told me he thought they weren't worth the money. It goes against my research to
date.... I'd love to hear any opinions
Cheers
sunnyside said:
I am in the midst of choosing a builder for a 2300 sq foot house and today
the builder who are leaning toward told me he thought they weren't worth
the money. It goes against my research to date.... I'd love to hear any
opinions
Cheers
Click to expand...
there not worth the money when a builder cant achieve a decent standard of airtightness!
if you dont have a performance spec for your builder forget about it.
btw do you have a provisional BER done?
sunnyside said:
am in the midst of choosing a builder for a 2300 sq foot house and today the
builder who are leaning toward told me he thought they weren't worth the
money.
Click to expand...
your choosing a builder and you have mentioned detail tender/constriction drawings and you dont
know what a performance specification is.
2. you need an architect to specify and detail the drawings so there is no squirming in an builders
price. you need an engineer because you dont know what foundations/floor you bought, and you
need to do a BER assessment at a minimum, so you can comply with building regulations
3. HRV is the least of your worries as others have said - the road your heading down seems more like
this
i wish you all the best
HRV in old house
Hello!
Looking for some advice please.
Can you install HRV in an old house, or are there any 'stand alone' type units that could be installed
in the damp / hot rooms such as bathrooms / kitchen?
Any advice much appreciated - and are they worth the money in terms of heating bills and comfort?
Thanks!
Can you install HRV in an old house, or are there any 'stand alone' type units
that could be installed in the damp / hot rooms such as bathrooms / kitchen?
Click to expand...
How air-tight is the house? This will play a significant role in the efficiency of MHRV.