Copyright 2010 Madanes-Peysha Publishing

The Older Couple Smart Marriages 3, Mike & Judy

Teleclass Transcript
MP: Mark Peysha
CM: Cloe Madanes
David

C: Hi you [muting] people. We say hello. What are we doing?

MP: Here. Im just muting and starting a recording. Okay. Everyone, welcome to the
teleclass. We have some very interesting stuff today. One moment here. All right. So,
welcome to the teleclass.
Today, were going to talk about Smart Marriage Intervention with Mike and Judy and
particularly focusing on the concept of presence in relationship. So why is it important?
How to help yourself or other people get it? And if we review for a moment, weve
talked about the 7 Master Skills Relationship which formed a kind of a map, different
areas of relationship that you can work on, 1 through 7. So, you can also pretty much
look at any relationship out there and see which of the skills needed the most work in that
relationship. So, do the people understand each other? Are they giving to each other?
You know things like that. Do they have trust? And they build up? Did the 7 skills
build up? And so, and then the last time we talked about operational disturbances in
relationships and families. In other words, even if you may want to meet your partners
needs but you have logistics and priorities and people dont manage and schedules to
manage and so how do you streamline your life so that you have the energy and time for
each other? So that you can actually meet each others needs? And so we talked about
what different ways? Thats really where the Six Human Needs in terms of the way
theyre meant for it and couples and their families break down. Life gets complicated.
Well, the presence is kind of a flip side of what we talked about last week. Its about
whether you and your partner feel comfortable to be who you are together. So in other
words, one of the many reasons that people over-schedule themselves and become
workaholics and become obsessed with things that take up a lot of time is they take time
away from their relationship and their families. They are actually avoiding something in
the relationship and which is a feeling usually that needs arent being met whether theres
a lot of intimacy or passion.
And so when couples feel that, they let themselves get busy and they even kind of go to
an avoidance behavior where they are looking for things to prevent themselves from
spending too much time together. So, for example, with our intervention with Mike and
Judy who are two therapists, who really love each other and are very good mature people

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and focused on helping other people. They dont have any big, dramatic problem except
that they complain that their work balance is off and that their work is really getting in the
way. They spoke about this kind of in a big way and Mike feels that hes disappointing
Judy and Judy feels like she doesnt understand why shes spending so much time with
work despite that the fact they are in the same profession and actually work in the same
office.
So the intervention focused on giving the people an experience of polarity and presence
together. You know feeling the passion and the interactive emotional dynamic again.
This is a very powerful exercise and experience to go through. And so before we talk
about this intervention at length, we should talk about some of the core concepts of this
approach.
In the first concept, its that of masculinity and femininity that Tony talked about during
the intervention. And we got one great question which was how do you know when
someone is masculine or feminine in their core? So in the case of Mike and Judy, Mike
seems pretty masculine in general and Judy seems pretty core feminine in general. So,
how do you understand people
C: Let me add something there. Excuse me. Can I interrupt?
MP: Yes.
C: Yeah. The question actually was how could Tony tell that Michael was at his core
masculine and that Judy was at her core feminine? And its very simple. He can tell by
the way they conduct their body that their body posture. Mike was sort of straightbacked and a more rigid posture, in a controlled way and Judy was hallow with the tray,
hallow with the chairs. She was wearing a fluffy dress. She was barefoot and crossing
and uncrossing her legs and touching her hair and her face and she was emotional. He
was very careful. Mike was very careful not to criticize, not to complain and very
measured in his speech while Judy was easily complaining and easily expressing
emotions. And those are the signs of masculinity and femininity.
MP: Yeah. And so, its interesting that Tony keyed in on a reversal that maybe very
subtle for many people to tack because there are a lot of people would think that Mike
seems perfectly masculine and she seems perfectly feminine. And so when you have
terms like masculine and feminine, those are the
C: Hey, Mark thats confusing. Quit reversal. There was no reversal. Mike was
masculine.
MP: Well, that there was the depolarization. Im sorry.
C: Depolarization thats different. Yeah.

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MP: He did refer to Mike as having some thats being more in the feminine and her
being in, more in the masculine in the beginning of the intervention. And so
C: And right, because in their presence of each other they were depolarized.
MP: Thats right. And so masculine and feminine are really loaded in our culture and
fairly easily misunderstood. And so when you talk about when you tell someone that
they are not masculine or they are not feminine, then people become extremely motivated
to hang on to their gender characteristics and so
C: Yeah, basically its an insult to say to a woman youre masculine or to say to a man
youre feminine can be taken totally as an insult. Its not necessarily but its a language
that I think is better not to use as a strategic intervention in [historic] approach.
MP: Yeah. More people focus on
C: I think the different things to talk about whether there is polarity, whether theyre
seeing yin and yang but not in a masculine-feminine.
MP: Also people can over react so if you tell a guy that hes not masculine then he might
start acting out in a way that he thinks are masculine like being volatile or territorial or
feeling like they need more significance where thats not really helping the couple.
C: And its not through masculine behavior. Theres a lot of misinterpretation of what
masculinity is and so, for men will understand the concept that they have to be angry
more. They have to be intolerant. They have to shout and give orders even have a
tantrum. And thats not what masculine is. The masculine essence is protective, calm,
present and resourceful.
MP: Yes. And other women can they feel theyre tall but they have to be more
feminine. They can (Inaudible) the power in themselves and feeling that they cant ask
for things or yeah, they cant say yes. They cant accept this.
C: Or be successful or be competent.
MP: Thats right.
C: And the core of the feminine, it has nothing to do with that. It has to do with
understanding and sympathy and compassion and tenderness and being able to nurture.
MP: Yeah. And vulnerability. And so its important that we dont use these terms to
create more problems that are already there.
C: Right.

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MP: So, you dont want to give someone a negative self-image because they have a
relationship tweak they need to work on. You want to take that away for them to have the
experience that they need to have to have a happy relationship. And so in this case, in
how do we understand this masculine and feminine dynamic? You can think of it this
way. In your relationship, you have certain peak experiences that are essential to your
happiness together. So for example, if you have a family, you have magic moments
where the both parents appreciate and love your kids. Even if day to day, life is hard, you
get tired, you ran out of energy that is parents. Sometimes you know at the school play,
on the beach watching the kids play or you have tons to do as parents, you need to have
those moments where youre both saying, Wow! Our kids are amazing. And if one
parent is ready to do that, the other parent isnt quite ready to appreciate the kids, it can
be like interfering with the peak experience of parenting and it can become a problem.
So another peak experience will be in sexuality. Theres a psychology to peak
experiences that studies say I dont know what they are Cloe but something like
apparently menting about sex like every other five seconds or something like that?
C: I dont know.
MP: Right. But it is something like that. But you know sex is something that most
people it doesnt occupy the majority of most peoples time. It is something thats
relatively a small amount of your time and a lot of focus. So, that is the kind of a
definition of the peak experience because you spend a lot of thinking about like a sprint
in a race. You think a lot of time thinking (Inaudible 09:33) and the thing is pretty short.
So in intimacy, its important to have a pleasurable peak experience. Its important for a
couple to have to be able to connect and share in that way and so one of terms we use
for that part of the relationship is presence where you really feel like you know your
partner. Youre sharing with them. You know exactly where they are in that moment.
They are not distracted and you feel the passion and its important for people to be able to
express themselves fully and honestly and so forth.
And so, sometimes in a couple, like in Mike and Judys case, they have if theres a
feeling on one side that one or the other partner is not, doesnt show up to a certain
interactions then it can cause a problem. And so thats when we are talking about the
masculine and feminine, were really focusing on one part of the relationship where it
really counts, where it really represents a huge part of the relationship even though its a
relatively short in terms of time and experience. Does that make sense, Cloe?
C: Yes.
MP: Okay. So anyway, I think Cloe, I thought that maybe we could start with going
through the intervention in little bit more detail and then we can talk about some of the
ten disciplines that help people experience more presence. Does that make sense?
C: Sure. Yes.

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MP: Great. So, Cloe, feel free to interrupt today.

C: Well, can I do a little bit whatever and then you can go into more details. Then I just
want to mention what to me was outstanding about Tonys intervention. First of all, of
course the way that he listed their Six Human Needs and whether he has them grade each
other and so on and it went on very well and we get lot of insight on their relationship.
But then what was brilliant was when Judy said, I can count the times on the fingers
with one hand, then I think she was referring to the times that Mike opened up to her
or showed emotion. And most people would take that as a negative comment only on
the fingers of one hand. Tony took it totally as a positive comment because of course if
you can show emotions five times, it means you can show emotion and be present always
and youre going to open up always because youve done it five times. And then he
anchored those events in her fingers by pointing each one, touching her each finger as she
told about each event so she totally refrained her comments in a positive way and he did
the same with Chicago Forever. He didnt even have to find out what happened in
Chicago. It was their time. That it was wonderful for them. And if it happened once, it
could happen always and for just those two words Chicago forever would be a trigger
for them to go back into that stage of openness and connection, positive emotions and
polarity and it was then that he was able to get Mike to finally assert himself and say that
he was not going to let her get away from him and to take a very strong masculine
presence.
MP: Exactly. I mean if you were to break down the intervention into the most basic
elements, it was the Six Human Needs exercise which is to get them to score themselves
to the point where they really understand where things are odd objectively in a
relationship. And secondly, the presence-inducing exercise which is where Tony helps
them have that experience, helps them have a peak experience of
C: Yes. Thats what I forgot to mention. That one of course, that is crucial having them
look into each others eyes and have the experience right there.
MP: Yeah. Definitely. So, I might just pop through the 7 Master Steps in terms of this
intervention so people have that structure. Does that make sense?
C: Yes.
MP: And then well (Inaudible 14:08) couple talk more about it. So, the first step of the
7 Master Steps is understanding. Right. And so when Tony asked Mike about what
happened in the relationship, Mike responded he disappoints Judy with some regularity.
And so, these are the take-aways in terms of the intervention I was watching all these
happen. The first words that come out of the clients mouth is really important and it is
important for you at the intervention to remember them accurately and to write them
down. And so the reason is because humans have the tendency to feel differently about
the words once someone else is using them. So because your own complaint is taken out
your control and so when you hear your words being used outside of control you want to

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change and correct them. So you know in Tonys case, he asked Mike so whats your
complaint? He says why disappoint her regularly? And the step two is getting leverage
which is the leverage you want to basically make sure that the person is fully engaged
with you, that theyre invested in the conversation
C: Let me interrupt one second?
MP: Sure. Go ahead.
C: I want to make a comment about what Mike said when he said that he disappoints her
regularly. And its very interesting that he didnt say shes very demanding or she
complains about me which another man might have did. Instead, he totally took
responsibility. I disappoint her regularly. So we knew immediately that he was not
about to criticize Judy and that he could take a strong stand and a strong responsibility.
MP: Thats great. Yeah. Exactly. I mean it was quite an evolved relationship already.
They have a lot of the skills in place and so the one where very many people who are
really great couples end up needing a little education, a little adjustment as in when it
comes to passion and polarity.
C: Right.
MP: Right. So thats great. Basically, I just want to explain how it Tony took leverage
in that and the idea is basically when youre taking a leverage, the essence of leverage is
taking up for the person who really wants and needs and eliminating fake agreement so
you want to make sure that the person has invested on the conversation. And so when
Tony takes Mike and Judys exact words, he listens for their exact words and then he uses
them later on to remind them, Well, no. What did you say? You said you disappointed
her regularly. And that kind of he got Mike and Judy fully kind of invested in their
own complaints (Inaudible16:52) so that they can then solve them. Does that make
sense?
C: Yes.
MP: And so the third step is to define the real challenge. And so once he had kind of
brought out what the real complaints and the challenges were in the relationship, this is
where you can educate someone in terms of one the concepts of strategic intervention.
So when you have the Six Human Needs, like the concepts of polarity for instance.
These concepts are designed to reframe the problem and to define the real underlying
challenges to overcome. So very typically, some will present a problem in chronic terms
of a you know, This is the end of the line that we ended our relationship. Our
relationship no longer has a passion. We no longer have anything in common. I dont
feel like I used to. So by defining the real challenge youre saying, Look. I understand
the problem youre having. Its important. By the way, what youre doing to me is the
Six Human Needs. And when you redefine the challenge that way, youre giving the

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person something they can do right away to address the underlying reasons for the
complaint.
So if someone has a relationship problem, you help them meet each others needs, which
is the basis of the relationship until someone a couples passions physical value offer
them a way to re-polarize their relationship. If a couple is sensitive or timid and no one
will take the first move, then you give them the way to expend their identity and the
range of behavior so that they have permission and the relationship to express
themselves.
So apart at defining the real challenge and educating the person in the underlying factors
so this is where you bring out the six human needs you talk to them about the
importance of the Six Human Needs and ask them to identify themselves according to
that. And then that is something that they can start to respond to in a positive way. So in
this case, Mike bought into the fact that he had work to do and Judy in the beginning did
not really act like she had work to do. She had to Tony had to teach her a little bit about
the Six Human Needs, about where theyre getting that and kind of bring them into a
level playing field where they both take a full accountability for the relationship. Does
that make sense?
C: Uh-hmm.
MP: So, step four is the interruptive limiting pattern. Now the way wed like to think
about this is somewhat differently. You know on one hand you interrupt patterns on an
ongoing basis in the conversation or intervention in order to manage the state. So
someone should start talking too long about a story you want to make sure they are not on
autopilot. You want to ask them some questions to make sure that theyre responding to
you. But the greater meaning in this fourth step is that its wanting to talk about changes
and another thing to do it so after youve spoken a little bit to the person for some time
about the change you dont want to get stuck in the still pattern of just talking. You want
to get into it and experience it. And so after the personal habit overriding emotional
pattern, they need to break out if in order to get things moving. So in this case, Mike was
very calm, quiet, patient, somewhat sad, quite reserved and these qualities are strengths
but in order to get Judys attention, he had to break out of these.
So thats where Tony used humor and somewhat teasing jokes and the Six Human Needs
analysis when theyre started to realize their score their scores are low scores for each
other started to bring about a sense of urgency which is really important for that couple
to feel like okay now I have this I cant just hang on the back and be calm anymore.
Theres something I need to take care of. And so when Tony asked Mike to score his
inability to meet Judys needs, this interrupted the limiting pattern which has a
seriousness which they started discussing the challenge. And actually, Tony made it
therapeutic because he made it a joke. They were able to laugh about the shortcomings of
the relationship. And thats a very therapeutic way for people to deal with the realities. If
they can laugh, you can make it light, you can make it funny that theyre understanding,

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Yes, Im getting a three at these areas. But it can also be something that you can handle
because its the humor kind of makes it lighter.
Now one point during the scoring, Judy suddenly teared-up and got emotional. And
thats where Tony held eye contact with her and talked her about her emotion. And this is
the point where he took her fingers and the way, I think that in terms of the 7 Master
Steps is that this is her predominant pattern being interrupted. So this is the point where
she realizes, Oh my gosh, were getting threes and twos in our relationship. And she
starts to feel the emotion. And you know when people are dealing with problems on a
regular basis, they have they feel defenseless to them. They get frustrated, they get
pissy, they get defensive, they get guilty or they blame other people. They tell you dont
tell me about this. But when people suddenly take accountability for a problem that they
have or they take responsibility they often feel like a sudden sense of emotionally-done
and so its important in those moments to give them something positive. So thats where
Tony did really amazing. She said that she could basically, Judy went from saying,
Yeah, hes doing this, hes not doing that. Yeah, you know we have problems. Just
saying kind of sadly that she can count that peak experiences shes had on one hand and
so Tony went and took each of her fingers and asked her to identify a positive memory
with each of them. And so thats where he basically, hes building her back up from the
point wheres shes just taken her leverage is complete. She is completely her pattern
has been interrupted and now hes giving her instantly and it was amazing cause he
caught her yet like no hesitation. He went straight for her fingers and saw this instinct to
suddenly anchor her with all the positive stuff.
C: Uh-hmm.
MP: Yeah. Thats really cool. So, and so by the way, if you see an emotion in someone
and you detect an emotional shifting so you suddenly give that emotion a meaning and
then identity which has power for the person to make the change they need so which
mega strategy is that? Its finding the spark. So thats what he did. She felt sadly. He
decided, Oops, Im going to take that, in her moment of vulnerability and, Im going
to build it up with a positive and remember the positive things that they have together.
Thats the strategy we talked about the other day but Cloe, we will start with us
remembering the positive.
C: Yes, I want to add something to this also that I think is important. It is important that
Tony was standing because if this has been a seated conversation, it would have been
very awkward for Tony all of a sudden to stand up to touch her fingers. But he was
already standing over her and so it was very easy to say, Oh, let me see your fingers.
And then he was at a distance from her where he could touch her fingers so I think that
the intervention is that you always have to be aware of his or her distance from the people
you are working with and your posture.
MP: Yeah, I noticed that Tony was actually once he realized that she was tactile, he
would put his hand on her shoulder more and leave it that way. So why do you think that
he structured things so that they were sitting? I mean, how do you think that will?

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C: Oh, I think that he made them sit because he invited them to sit because theyre
therapists and theyre accustomed to having conversation sitting down. Tony is used to
making interventions standing up. Tony never sits. Rarely sits. And so he was doing
what was most comfortable for him and what he thought was more comfortable for them.
Dont you think?
MP: Yeah. I think so. I mean thats a great point.
C: Yeah.
MP: I think also whenever he has two people who have differences like he was from
another film (Inaudible) he likes to sit them face to face but they were kind of diagonal to
each other so it wasnt really a face to face in the beginning so I think youre right.
C: Yes. I have my I just gave a workshop and this weekend and I did a demonstration
with a married couple and Im doing that now more and more always having people stand
then face each other standing. But I I dont have to be, being a therapist myself, I dont
have to be so careful with these therapies but Tony wanted to be very respectful and have
them feel very comfortable.
MP: Great. Also Ill get back to the step five.
C: Yes.
MP: It was really the elevation strategy also. So when he took her fingers, he brought
her back up to the highest level of the relationship and brought her back to that. Right.
And so thats also in terms of the 7 Master Steps. Thats step five. So youre basically
helping the couple get resources and creative ways of solving the problems. So, while he
was taking her to the positive memories Sorry, I lost my thought here.
So, anyway, the intervention is starting towards what Michael has done and succeeding
which are Judys and so building on the success and things that he could do to make
things happen. And so thats creating and empowering alternatives. Thats step five.
Now, look at the couples defining challenge and theyve gone to the excitement of
scoring each other and breaking out of the pattern, things serious and sad. Its time to
create basically an experience of where they do succeed and this is where it is really
important not to just be talking. Its for to think emotionally also. So Tony basically
takes them through a second exercise which is developing presence of receptiveness.
And so he had seen this early on that the couple is depolarized and so this is kind of a bit
worrying that has been going all along. He has a process for this.
And so in order for us to go to his next exercise, Tony goes back to step three which is
define the real challenge. And so now he defined the challenge and Mikes ability to
inspire trust and not just the trust in the sense that he will betray Judy but that she can test

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him and tease him without having him crumble. And Tony had observed that Mike had to
lose his presence or lose his I guess he crumbles into himself a little bit and so he
knows that Mike prides himself of being trustworthy and loyal but he sees that Mike has
become meek and tentative in the relationship and because he feels like he was failing.
And so of course, if youre a failure, often brings about more failure especially in
relationships. And Tony knows that being tentative in the relationship is just a vicious
cycle and being the more tentative that Mike is the more Judy feels alone and unprotected
which makes her volatile and critical which makes Mike even more a fright so the
solution is for Mike to stand strong. Tony gives Mike more a powering alternative by
redefining into Judys emotions in terms of a metaphor. So this is important when youre
in the step five youre giving people alternatives. Metaphors are very, very useful for
people. To give metaphors gave people the feeling for something. So Tony says, Hey,
you know Judys emotions, her cutting remarks are like a tropical storm, and so
something that if he stands up strong in the middle of it and it will just pass and lead to a
beautiful sunny day. And Tony also gives Mike the metaphor of taking in all of Judys
emotions so instead of him collapsing when they happen, he has to absorb them into
himself and let them make him stronger.
And so the way that Tonys guiding this experience of polarity is that Judys sense of
micro feminine energy and by expressing her vulnerability and uncertainty and her
emotion and Mikes sense for his masculine energy by taking in the uncertainty and
sending her certainty. So step five is specifically, youll see Tony using the mega strategy
of finding the spark so this whole conversation with Mike has been quiet, patient and
passive. And Tony sees in Mikes predominant pattern which Judy is the accommodator
and get intense. And so Tony does know that Mike is a good therapist. He knows that
theres a spark somewhere where hes meeting his needs outside of the relationship. Hes
meeting his needs for significance and for contribution probably to help find some place.
So Tony needs to bring that out. He asked Mike about how he meets his needs for
significance with what was happening with Judy and so this is something you have to
remember that if someone is not meeting their needs in the relationship, theyre meeting
it outside. And so if you find out where that person is meeting their needs, its like a
compliment of finding the spark. You can find where someone is really meeting their
needs for significance or certainty or their needs for variety and then you could bring it
in. And so Judy also admired and admitted that her work as a therapist was in meeting
her needs just eight or nine. So it was definitely a larger score than she was getting in the
relationship. Does that make sense, Cloe?
C: Yes.
MP: Its kind of a bit odd. Im sorry that its so long. It was such a very rich
intervention so stop me if you think that its running too long. I will just try to make it a
little faster but
C: Thats okay.
MP: Okay. So

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C: I think its important.

MP: Okay. So then just as Judy was coming up with more examples of times that Mike
made her feel great, so you know she started remembering more times. And so the times
that Mike would come into her office and kiss her on the neck and the time in Chicago.
Okay. Tony kind of confronted her with playfully saying that she lied to him, saying that
she could only count these moments on one hand where in fact she had enough memories
for two hands. And this is important again because the complement to presence is
receptiveness. So its like the masculines job so to speak as to be present and not to hide
and to express themselves into express your passion. Its important for the feminine to
be receptive and so in this case, Tony was shaping and training Judy to be more receptive
so when becomes Mike more present for Judy, Judy needs to let go of her judgment and
criticism and so what Tony does is to point out to her in a playful way the times that she
has been judgmental or unfair or inaccurate. And then so what Tony does then is easy.
Theres the strategy of giving real time feedback so hes when Judy is testing him, Tony
will point it out to Mike. But he points it out in a way that exercises a positive intent so
he understands how thats meeting her needs for certainty and how thats her
vulnerability and how thats a valuable emotion thats emotion that he wants her to
have.
So, anyway, when they start talking about Chicago in the way that Mike has been able to
be totally honest that was like a peak experience for that couples life. And now its very
interesting to see that the question that Tony asked as soon as he heard about Chicago,
instead of asking for the story of Chicago, Cloe like he said, Tony asked, Well, why
were you able to break through? and then they asked Judy had said Tony had asked,
So what holds you back? and Mike said, Fear. And Judy says, I know where
that that comes from her history. A fear of being killed. Right? And Judy does so
instead of going into this fear of being killed Tony asked theres a great question he
says, So why were you able to break through that history for this woman? So its a
brilliant turn of event.
C: Again you should point to the success that instead of to the fear.
MP: Thats right. And he uses that, he uses again that. Its like expanding the spark
where instead of going into the painful history he says, Oh, how come you were able to
break through that history for this woman? And so he chose to find the part of Mike that
broke through and magnify his part. So
C: Yes. And the idea is that if he can do it once, he can do it always.
MP: Exactly.
C: And thats where forever comes.

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MP: Thats right. So Tony wants to bring that forth, magnify it and ask about it how it
happened and link it to Mikes love for Judy. So, Tony followed that up by asking, So
what would you do for this woman? And Tonys magnifying a past exacts more result.
Well, this is a very useful thing. That if you find an example about the couple was
successful like an example of what you want the couple to experience now, the best thing
you can do is find the time that is very close to their hearts or on their mind, that they did
do it in the past and just having them have a similar experience again, and that will often
just give a huge boost to the relationship and change all the references to the relationship.
C: And give them a phrase, that simple phrase that will immediately bring back that
memory and put them in that place again.
MP: Yes, exactly. And so, Chicago Forever just breaks their entire mindset. They have
this scares in their mindset that that peak experience was only that one time after that
workshop in that city and all that stuff. Tony envisioned that if youre lucky you can
reach your standards, you can have that all the time. And he said that it was a single its
amazing how a slogan was so much more efficient then because of two paragraphs about
it. So they came up with a slogan for them to share.
C: Thats right.
MP: And so thats when Mike kind of started to really break through. He had a couple of
times that he was felt accused that he was going to fail the task then Tony did that funny
pattern to interrupt right? Where he sit (Inaudible 35:41).
C: Yes
MP: That worked. So basically, that was when Mike started to declare to Judy and so
Mike starts to declare, You and me now together, forever, which is what you really
want. Tony has just moved into step six which is the condition or test for (Inaudible
36:01) so he starts making sure even at the beginning that this peak experience of Mike
and Judy they are going into is going to be something that they can access again and
again. So, just as Mike starts talking like this, Tony starts giving Mike real time
feedback. So Mike is speaking and Tony is putting out, Look at Judys look at those
tears. Look at her shoulders. Look at her breathing. Look at her face. And hes giving
Mike ways to recognize in real time when hes having an effect on his wife. This is
important because the couple have thought that somehow Chicago was this magical
moment that just happened on its own and Tony is empowering Mike to say, Look.
Now this is what its working. This is what you look for. And with Judy, he also said,
Look, then pointing out how shes feeling, how shes responding. Its so what was
amazing was that at this point Mike took authority and went further than even Tony in
terms of what he told Judy. He told her that he was not going to let her avoid him at night
anymore. And this is what happens when a guy is fully informed that it takes a guy to
take the position of full presence. Well, hes not just saying, Oh, you know, youre
gonna leave. Ill just kind of collapse. Ill just go take care of this. No, Im taking
order with this relationship and even kind of busted Judy for trying to get away from him

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like laying down the law and thats saying, Thats not acceptable. You have to be with
me. And to that degree and authority in control that makes part, he finally allowed Judy
to let go of the need to control the situation in which he felt like she he had controlled
the situation she seems to melt and how all this emotion come to the surface. That was
kind of a passion. So, anyway thats (Inaudible 37:41). Its a long intervention. Its very
rich. It wasnt that long but it was very rich.
C: Shall we go in to the ten disciplines?
MP: Sure.
C: Or do you have more on this?
MP: No, thats all I have. So, its 12:30. So we can either go to the ten disciplines or go
to the questions? I guess the ten disciplines are good right now because its important
for people to have some sense of some of the rules that help people keep passion in place
of the standards that keep passion and presence going. Something like that.
C: Yes. And these are called disciplines in the sense that they are like practices to be
practiced all the time in the relationship so as to bring out the best in oneself and the best
in the other person and so the first discipline is putting your lover first or putting your
partner first. So the idea is not about you. Its about focusing on what the other person
needs and focusing on what you are going to give, not what you are going to receive.
And of course, this is a good practice for any relationship that most people dont have
trouble practicing this in relation to their children for example and but most people do
have trouble in relation to their spouse because they tend to fall back into a horse-trading
kind of situation. Ill give you this if you give me that. Or what about my needs and you
need to think about my needs. And when will we talk about my needs? Those are the
kind of things.
And I think that here is important for all these disciplines to take a step back and think
that these practices are all fine but there has to be a bottom line. And there has to be an
understanding in a couple at the beginning of their relationship in terms of what is the
breaking point whether or not to be tolerated. What is the bottom line of what the
relationship should be like?
So obviously and for most people, no violence is the bottom line. And so youre not
going to be thinking about the other persons needs when they are hitting you. So you
have to be very clear, have a clear example with your partner for example, no violence. I
cant be with someone who hates my child from my previous marriage. I cant be with
someone who refuses to work. I cant be with someone who hates my mother or
whatever it is that is the bottom line.
And then also, another important part of this is the executive meeting so that you are
going to do this practice of putting the others need first but there will be one time a week
for one hour, youre going to a restaurant for example and discussing whatever issues

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happened in that week so that the negative issues dont invade the whole relationship but
there is a specific time a one hour a week in a calm meeting in a public place where you
will express your need and what you want, what you desire what went wrong that week
and so on. And weve talked about this in other classes.
MP: Yes. But this is what helps you just like a safety net for going in meeting the other
persons needs first so that you know that there will be a time and a place for you to be
able to talk about your needs as well.
C: Thats right.
MP: And that the question most people have is how do I know that Im not going to be
sacrificing for months and months on end and not getting any results in terms of what I
require from a relationship as well.
C: Exactly. Then the second discipline is loving no matter what and not withholding the
gift of love. And so loving no matter what means the little words of love, the kindness,
calling the person by their favorite nick names and saying dear or honey or whatever is
the language that is appropriate and giving a little hug, a special smile, a phone call in the
middle of the day. All these signs of love that can occur during any given day or any
given week practicing them actually to say once in a while, Of course I love you, is not
enough. It has to be a daily practice.
MP: Yes. And you know, people crave unconditional love because we have that when
we were children. And so its really important to hold a standard that you can that yes,
Im going to give my partner the love that I would give my child. And so this is one of
those things where you go out of your way to find ways to love that person rather than the
opposite.
C: Exactly. And discipline three is being yourself, emanating and expressing your
natural essence or your true core. I think that really what we mean by this is expressing
yourself at your highest level, your highest nature, your most spiritual nature because we
dont know what is the true core. These are all kinds of things that a true core could be.
So what we really mean is the highest core so you will make the effort and have the
discipline to be at your highest level to be the best that you can be, to be present in a good
dedicated charming way.
So many people can be so charming and interesting with their friends or at work and yet
as soon as theyre alone with their spouse, theyre a grouch. And they show their darker
side. And so what you have to practice is the opposite. If you can be charming with
friends, you should be double charming with your partner.
MP: Yup. And this is again presence. So you can be completely present in certain like
in some performers for instance, they know how to be present onstage. And then they
live, and with the people who care about them, they are like absent.

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C: Yes.
MP: And so the presence is being yourself and giving the best that you can with people
and making that demand in yourself so that youll have more good stuff coming out of
you that way.
C: Yes. That actually is. An American term for that that is good is being on.
MP: Yes.
C: Its like being onstage. Why you need to be on and onstage also for your partner not
just when youre in public.
MP: Exactly.
C: Discipline four is positive intent and that includes no threats and no judgments. So
positive intent weve talked about before. It means attributing good intentions to your
partner instead of jumping to conclusions like she did that on purpose to hurt me, things
that maybe there is another reason. I used the example of the wife that calls her husband
at work and hes short with her. And she thinks so maybe hes with another woman.
Instead, she could think maybe the boss is standing right over him and maybe he has the
deadline of something he needs to submit. Dont jump to negative conclusions and of
course eliminate all threats and negative judgments because they kill a relationship so
that you dont want to do character assassination. I call this character assassination from
the practice of (Inaudible 45:48) in Russia when he wanted to expel somebody from the
(Inaudible 45:54), he will hold a meeting where the person will have to stand and
everybody would judge him and criticize him and then he would be sent to his death.
Well, thats the way to kill a relationship. And it applies totally to romantic love. So
threat and judgment have no place in this so you might express that you dont like a
certain behavior but youre not going to judge the character of a person and youre not
going to threaten to leave because the person who threatens to leave has all the power in
the relationship. If one of the partners threatens to leave, the other one is basically left
powerless and this is not a good situation. There has to be a balance.
MP: Yeah. Definitely and I think one of the standards for the making them whether
you are giving your partner a chance to correct things so you say its too late then youre
basically shutting the door on them.
C: Thats right.
MP: You can say, Look I would really appreciate if you did it this way. And likewise, if
you say, I didnt like that behavior, versus, Youre bad, you have to say it can even
be both, it doesnt mean that you have to be pushy cause you could say, Look. Dont
do that. That bugs me. Stop it. You can even say in a joking way, Hey, stop that.
(Inaudible 47:15) stop again. Come on. But its better to say, Look. Youre a so and
so. I mean name calling and things like that. You want to de personalize it. You want

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to give them a chance to correct their behavior thats your (Inaudible 47:25). Thats how
you reinforce. You give a way to be right and then they do it. And then you reward them
for that.
C: Okay. So discipline five is forgiving, forgetting and flooding. So of course in any ongoing relationship, youve cast to forgive and forget many things. Its the only way to
continue in the relationship. Resentment is never conducive to anything good.
Resentment is really a wrong emotion. So when find yourself experiencing resentment,
you have to change it. You have to do some flooding. Flood yourself with positive
thoughts, positive memories, attributing positive intent to the other person and with the
power of forgiving and forgetting, one way to elicit the power of forgiving and forgetting
is that the very Christian idea of the one who has not committed a sin should throw the
first stone. So if you have been perfect that you have never done something wrong or
made a mistake, then you can criticize. But there isnt a human being that has not been
wrong and made serious mistakes. So youll have to flood yourself with those thoughts
to be able to forgive and to forget.
MP: Yeah. One of the paradoxes in relationship is that the people who are closest to you
are the most likely the people can hurt you the most. And theyll hurt you the most
because you have so many expectations from them. You have so many hopes from them.
So you have to be able to let go of that and to focus on the love and thats the core of the
relationship and let the other things pass by.
C: Yes. And then discipline six is daily intimacy, opening your heart, being fully
engaged, not holding back and then not only saying the right words but touching the other
person, holding them, the pat on the shoulders, the hug, the sexy comments, the sexy
looks, important to practice these on a daily level.
MP: Yeah. You dont just wait for certain situations. You dont just wait until youre
about make love. You have to keep it going. And basically, finding opportunities to do it
can do more rather than less.
C: Yes. And then discipline seven is polarity and that is recreating the yin and yang, the
electricity that makes a relationship passionate. And what I like to tell women, there was
a study done by Playboy Magazine years ago of all magazines playboy it was a very
interesting study, they were interested in women who are able to have multiple orgasms
and they wanted to find out why some women have multiple orgasms and others didnt?
So they kind of enlarged they enlarged sample of women different social class,
different educational level, different ages, and they had this one thing in common, the
multiple orgasms. And of course Playboy Magazine expected that the result would be the
skill of the man as a lover or the physical characteristics of the man or something in
relation to the man but no. The conclusion of the study was that the women who were
multi-orgasmic prepared themselves for the sexual encounter an hour before the meeting
the man. So the woman would take a bubble bath, try on sexy lingerie, listen to her
favorite crooner, watch her favorite movie actor, read a romance novel, whatever it was

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that she would do to turn herself on by the moment at the time that the man arrived that
didnt really matter who he was or what he did.
So women has to understand that it takes them a long time to prepare themselves and that
for many women, if theyre not in the mood, theres nothing that the man can do. So,
women have the responsibility of putting themselves in the mood not just expecting the
man to do it. Now the counter of this system is the man has to (Inaudible 51:58) and
when he wants to have sex that evening, that he has to start the foreplay at breakfast then
that is true. Then if the couple is apart the sexy phone call, the sweet message, all those
things make a difference. And then of course, theres the little efforts that the theres
this funny book porno for women thats consists of a series of pictures of men and the
men are vacuuming the floors, feeding the baby, cooking dinner, less porno for women
that always sells.
MP: So you prescribe porno for women?
C: Yes. All right. So discipline eight is the power of vulnerability. They being able to
open yourselves and save your tools about what you need to have passion. This is really
important and still there are so many people and especially so many women that are too
shy or too straight to show what they want, to express what they need in a good way, in a
kind way so this is a practice that has to become a part of the relationship.
Then discipline nine is the power of giving higher meaning and constant growth. Again,
this is elevating the relationship to a higher level and actually in a marriage for example.
A marriage is a sacrament in every religion, its a sacred relationship. So if you can just
remember that and put your relationship at the highest level, always give it the higher
meaning, the relationship should be what bring some your greater compassion, your best
emotion, your better sense of contribution and love. And finally Go ahead.
MP: Now, Ill just say that the importance of appreciating a relationship is a very
complex and large thing. It is more than we think of the day to day we dont even
understand the breadth of lets say a long term or a romantic relationship. Its a big thing.
So you have to give it its due and just take the time to appreciate. Its like the tip of the
ice berg. People are usually, they are focusing on little pieces and little things that bother
them when theyre not ignoring 75% of the wonder and amazement of being in a
relationship.
C: Yes.
MP: All right. Go ahead.
C: And discipline ten is gratitude. And a gratitude of course is a very important practice
so its looking at the glass (Inaudible 54:46) and not half-empty and every single day
have thinking and even verbalizing what you are grateful about in your partner. This is
crucially important. So these are the ten disciplines. Then again, I want to emphasize
that the bottom line is that there has to be agreement about lines that cannot be crossed

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and those lines usually includes disliking at somebody that you love, violence, infidelity,
common crimes like stealing and so on. And then they expect you to meetings to make
sure that your complaints and your needs are addressed.
MP: Yeah. Now these ten disciplines are really great to have. I will give you a print out
of them to educate people if youre doing relationship intervention to bring them to a
higher level of standards cause a lot of people let these things go. They let themselves
go in terms of positive intent. They let go the importance of fully being honest with your
partner. You know they let of polarity, they let go of thinking, Oh, I need another
opportunity to express my love. They take them too much for granted and so just like
we talked about the Six Human Needs and getting people to meet each other and accept
those needs. But if a couple wants to experience polarity and passion, they need to pay
attention to these ten disciplines.
C: Yes. All right. Very good. Maybe we have time for one question or two?
MP: Lets take what we can do. So, do you have any questions? Press star two and I can
also listen on the lets see. Someones on the webcast already to start those questions.
Okay. Do we have a question? My husband saw the film of Judy and Mike regarding
Tony saying that the man should break through and understanding the clues given by
women regarding their feelings. He says that he understand why he should do that. As
hes the person thats most of the time a very nice person but doesnt open emotionally
feels like how can I say to him regarding this system? What can I tell him regarding the
difficulty of trying to read a womans feelings? So this is from a woman talking about
her husband.
C: Yes. But he understand why he has to do it or she doesnt want to do it? What does
it?
MP: He doesnt understand why he should be picking up on her clues. I mean it sounds
to me like maybe hes a very logical person in saying, Why should I follow clues to
understand what you need? Why cant you just say it? Does that make sense?
C: Well, maybe she can give him a dictionary, an owners manual to herself so she can
say, When I smile like this, it means this. When I look away, it means that. Just so you
know.
MP: Uh-hmm.
C: What do you think of that?
MP: Well, I think thats great. And I think that theres a piece of it Go ahead, Cloe.
C: No. Go ahead.

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MP: Well, the other piece of it is that its my standard answer that if you dont feel like
you have enough participation or enthusiasm on your partners part, then you need to
meet her level. There are needs that are higher levels. You need to be more creative and
you need to put that out there first. And I know how to inspire this in you. I know how
you can feel more love and passion. I know how you can feel more significant.
C: But she has to say to her husband, When you understand me like that, I will be so
moved. I would love you so much more.
MP: Thats right.
C: They could have that much more coming to you.
MP: Exactly. Knowing that there is a reward and its not like a reward in punishment
reward, but it is like, Yeah, you achieved this. You got this. You got to a higher level of
relationship.
C: Right. Exactly. Is there one more?
MP: Great. Yeah. We do have one more. Youre on line? Hey, there. Youre on the
other line, do you have question?
Oh, yes, I do. Can you hear me?
MP: Yes. Absolutely. How are you?
Okay. I just want to maybe clarify or just make a comment at the end of the video
session of a couple. When Tony had Michael stand up was that also another mega
strategy communication to his wife that hes standing up almost like in the position of
authority which was one of his things that he has had to learn? Or it might seem. Is that
right?
C: Its more I think a position of presence and strength and he has to love you and
protect you and Im present for you.
Right. Okay. That is a really good way to see that.
C: Yes. Thats the meaning of it.
Right. I thought that was so powerful as well.
C: Its very powerful. Its a wonderful to do with the couple. Its a wonderful thing to
practice to just stand up and look into each others eyes.
MP: Absolutely.

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Absolutely.
C: Okay.
Thank you.
C: Okay. Thank you. One more?
MP: Yeah. I think that we do have one more. Here we go. Yes?
Hello.
Louder.
Hi, there.
Am I on?
Yes.
This is David of New York. Tony often while I saw him at the Leadership Academy
once, we talked about being at kicking distance, punching distance, grasping distance and
grappling distance. When hes talking to somebody in there in the audience, he got this
from Bruce Lee that there are certain things you can do at punching distance, certain
things you can do at kicking distance, certain things you can do at grasping distance and
when someones standing up with the audience they are kicking distance. He comes into
little bit of things. When he comes onto the stage, then they can be a punching distance,
then grasping and grappling. He can do more things. Excuse me, my other phones
ringing. He can do many more things when somebodys much closer to them than when
theyre further away, so youd many more tools and he can get much leverage with them
when theyre that much closer to him. And I think thats part of what he did on that
video.
C: Yes. And thats why Tony stands and thats why he likes the couples to come visibly
close together like that. Definitely. Yes. Very interesting comment. Okay. Thank you.
MP: Great. Hey we have another question.
C: Okay.
MP: How do you make these disciplines work when youre working with only one
partner?
C: It takes only one person to change a relationship. Youll practice these disciplines and
youll see that the other partner begins to change.

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MP: Uh-huh.
C: It doesnt take two to change a relationship. It only takes one.
MP: Yeah. Because basically what happens is that the way standards work, if you raise
your standards, other people will more likely raise their standards.
C: Of course. And once youre satisfying the other persons human needs and youre
present and youre loving and youre forgiving and youre compassionate and youre
showing verbally and physical attention, the other person is going to respond and youve
started a change. Now, where that change will lead you, you have to see. All right.
MP: Yes. Again it has to do with helping the person to figure out how you he reward the
partner, how he can produce pleasure? It does come down to whether you are able to
produce pleasure? Partially cause thats part of your job as a partner. So if you dont
know how to do that, then or someone youre working with doesnt know how to do that
then that would be the first step cause getting to the point where they understand or they
know how to really surprise them, how to give them joy.
C: All right.
MP: Great. Okay, everyone.
C: I think thats it. Lets say good-bye.
MP: All right. Okay. Guys on the line. Say good-bye to Cloe.
C: Okay. Bye-bye.

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